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Nearly a quarter of 2024 Tories are switching to Reform – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,993
    malcolmg said:

    I want my money spent here, not handed over to some johnny foreigner. Always some absolute clown that will try to make out that £18B is just a small number. Away and learn about money you halfwit.
    Likewise, which is why it makes me so furious to see so many of my tax pounds spent on feckless Scots.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,517
    Cookie said:

    Did that cost us £18bn?
    Are you aware what Brexit is estimated to cost as calculated on the same basis as this 18b?

    Should I tell you?

    Are you sitting down?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752
    kinabalu said:

    What percentage of mass murderers are female?
    Very small. Thankfully the percentage of male murderers, whilst higher than female is also very small. Go and flagellate yourself again you self-loather lol.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,414
    edited February 4

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1886863448241242190

    Exclusive: Keir Starmer is for the first time facing criticism from within his cabinet over the Chagos deal

    *One person says they don’t understand why the UK is sending so much money to Mauritius when the Treasury is asking departments to make brutal spending cuts at home

    *Another says Starmer should cancel the deal

    *They both blame the situation on legal advice from Richard Hermer, the attorney general

    Glad the Cabinet seems to be developing some late onset testicles. I did suggest above that spending cuts could not be justified in the face of this deal.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,860

    Where's Chagos again?
    Why should I be bothered?
    Because Leon said so and has masterfully hijacked the thread. At first nobody bit, but by his third post everyone was putty in his hands.

    I don't know enough about the deal, although if Truss had her fingerprints on it it has the hallmark of a disaster.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,004
    malcolmg said:

    I want my money spent here, not handed over to some johnny foreigner. Always some absolute clown that will try to make out that £18B is just a small number. Away and learn about money you halfwit.
    We established last week I am only a quarter wit. As for not sending money to johnny foreigner, does that mean we can put an end to the barnett formula?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580
    rcs1000 said:

    They also distribute a massive amount in grants to enable low income students to go to college (Pell Grants). I presume these are
    being eliminated.
    If it wasn’t so tragic it would be an interesting experiment to watch
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,421

    Because Leon said so and has masterfully hijacked the thread. At first nobody bit, but by his third post everyone was putty in his hands.

    I don't know enough about the deal, although if Truss had her fingerprints on it it has the hallmark of a disaster.
    It seems to have snagged Casino as well
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752
    It must be a terrible thing for poor @kinabalu. He has been waiting and waiting for all these years to get a Labour government only to discover they are even more shit than the Tories. To top that he must now go and flagellate himself on a regular basis for being a) male and b)British. Poor chap. The only thing that could be possibly worse would be to be a Chartered Accountant.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,993
    rcs1000 said:

    Likewise, which is why it makes me so furious to see so many of my tax pounds spent on feckless Scots.
    you actually pay tax here, I thought you were an emigree tax dodger
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580
    rcs1000 said:

    I must admit, the Chagos thing mystifies me: surely if the HMG walked away, the Mauritius government would come running, giving that the status quo is them getting nothing from the UK.

    So, why aren't we shrugging our shoulders and saying "well, I guess if this doesn't work, well then there's no deal"?

    Starmer’s friends would disapprove
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,993

    We established last week I am only a quarter wit. As for not sending money to johnny foreigner, does that mean we can put an end to the barnett formula?
    you would need to improve greatly to be a quarter wit. Your barnett is fried , Taking 10 and returning is within the grasp of even a dimwit.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,860

    It must be a terrible thing for poor @kinabalu. He has been waiting and waiting for all these years to get a Labour government only to discover they are even more shit than the Tories. To top that he must now go and flagellate himself on a regular basis for being a) male and b)British. Poor chap. The only thing that could be possibly worse would be to be a Chartered Accountant.

    No they are not more shit than the Tories, they haven't had enough time - yet.

    Your memory isn't very sharp is it?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,517
    Pulpstar said:

    Shouldn't inflation and nominal interest rates broadly track in the long run ?
    I'd say to some extent they should but your start point is key. Eg we have real positive interest rates atm.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,288
    edited February 4
    We should cancel the Chagos deal, and quietly imply that Trump made us do it. Even if Trump denies it everyone will think "well that's the sort of thing he would do."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,414
    ...

    It seems to have snagged Casino as well
    If you really think the loss of hundreds of millions of pounds on an ongoing basis until we're all dead is a matter deserving of complete indifference, I don't quite get why you're posting on politicalbetting.com. I presume you were equally insoucient about Covid fraud.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794

    I'm logging off too.

    I'm getting increasingly angry the more I think about the Chagos treason.

    Likewise, I've got to contend with Berlin airport tomorrow morning.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,390

    I thought keelhauling was intended to be survivalable? Just that the barnacles etc would rip your skin to shreds in the process? Or have I misinterpreted?
    Well hard to know. Dreadful punishment anyway, so hard to find facts or discuss. Nonetheless it is of course history, so of interest. I think though it must have been survivable.

    The barnacles were the worst thing, but even a wooden hull would be awful. In many seas you also have sharks.

    There are probably worse punishments, but I'd not care to hear of them, and am only interested in this with regards to the microcosms of the ships of the Navy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,517
    edited February 4

    It must be a terrible thing for poor @kinabalu. He has been waiting and waiting for all these years to get a Labour government only to discover they are even more shit than the Tories. To top that he must now go and flagellate himself on a regular basis for being a) male and b)British. Poor chap. The only thing that could be possibly worse would be to be a Chartered Accountant.

    I'm fine, Nigel, don't you worry your little head about it.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,726
    edited February 4
    rcs1000 said:

    I must admit, the Chagos thing mystifies me: surely if the HMG walked away, the Mauritius government would come running, giving that the status quo is them getting nothing from the UK.

    So, why aren't we shrugging our shoulders and saying "well, I guess if this doesn't work, well then there's no deal"?

    AIUI the money is intended as compensation for evicting the Chagos Islanders from their homes. So presumably a failure to make a deal would leave us open to future legal action from the Chagos Islanders.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,414
    edited February 4

    AIUI the money is intended as compensation for evicting the Chagos Islanders from their homes. So presumably a failure to make a deal would leave us open to future legal action from the Chaos Islanders.
    So why is the money meant to be going to Mauritius then and not Gatwick?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,993

    Starmer’s friends would disapprove
    I don't think that's it.

    I mean, who'd be friends with Starmer?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,795
    Since the Chagos deal is so cheap (it’s claimed)

    We should fund it out of Starmers special pension. The one that needed specific mention in the law.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,860

    AIUI the money is intended as compensation for evicting the Chagos Islanders from their homes. So presumably a failure to make a deal would leave us open to future legal action from the Chaos Islanders.
    Please don't confuse the narrative with verifiable data.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,390
    malcolmg said:

    you would need to improve greatly to be a quarter wit. Your barnett is fried , Taking 10 and returning is within the grasp of even a dimwit.
    'Your barnett is fried'

    Malc - what does this mean? (Barnet can mean hair, but I can't see it in this context). I presume 'is fried' is much the same as 'is toast'?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,517

    Very small. Thankfully the percentage of male murderers, whilst higher than female is also very small. Go and flagellate yourself again you self-loather lol.
    No, little Nigel, not what percentage of females are mass murderers, what percentage of mass murderers are female?

    Try again maybe?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,004
    Omnium said:

    'Your barnett is fried'

    Malc - what does this mean? (Barnet can mean hair, but I can't see it in this context). I presume 'is fried' is much the same as 'is toast'?
    It may be something to do with mars bars.
  • So why is the money meant to be going to Mauritius then and not Gatwick?
    I don't know, but I'm just trying to think a little further than "duh, stupid traitor Starmer". This is supposed to be a vaguely intellectual board.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,390

    It may be something to do with mars bars.
    I'm pretty sure that even a rather bewildering gentleman such as MalcolmG isn't of the Mars Bar ilk. In fact I'd stake my reputation on it! (Stop trying to find small coins!)
  • I reckon Slalom made a promise to a friend
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580
    malcolmg said:


    you actually pay tax here, I thought you were an emigree tax dodger
    I’m not sure that anyone volunteering to live in California can be classed as a tax “dodger”
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,580
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think that's it.

    I mean, who'd be friends with Starmer?
    The lawyer advising Mauritius I believe….

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752
    kinabalu said:

    No, little Nigel, not what percentage of females are mass murderers, what percentage of mass murderers are female?

    Try again maybe?
    I'll let you look it up as it interests you so much. Personally I am not flagellating myself over the issue for being male, I leave that to saddos like you. They are bad people, scum, and I am not interested in their gender.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,263
    glw said:

    We should cancel the Chagos deal, and quietly imply that Trump made us do it. Even if Trump denies it everyone will think "well that's the sort of thing he would do."

    I think Trump is going to nix it. And what’s more I suspect he will take great pleasure in getting on his soapbox and telling everyone how idiotic the UK government are.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,390

    The lawyer advising Mauritius I believe….

    Billing. Advice comes as an expensive extra.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,517

    I'll let you look it up as it interests you so much. Personally I am not flagellating myself over the issue for being male, I leave that to saddos like you. They are bad people, scum, and I am not interested in their gender.
    Does poor little Nigel not like being patronised then?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752
    kinabalu said:

    I'm fine, Nigel, don't you worry your little head about it.
    I'm sorry, did I just get under your skin a little? I am sure we will be friends again soon lol.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,817
    Andy_JS said:
    Hold on. The school shooting has changed to an adult education centre shooting. That's not a whole lot better for the victims but does show some details can be missed in the rush to report early.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752
    kinabalu said:

    Does poor little Nigel not like being patronised then?
    Someone of your limited wit could try old bean, but you will fail, as you have just then. Sorry to tease, and it is so mean of me, as I know you self-righteous lefties are notoriously thin skinned. Oh, btw, did I mention, the Labour government is really shit. I mean really really shit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,096

    Hold on. The school shooting has changed to an adult education centre shooting. That's not a whole lot better for the victims but does show some details can be missed in the rush to report early.
    It is apparently on a campus with other schools - so whilst the shooting was not in them, they would have been affected and locked down whilst the shooting went on essentially next door. They might also share facilities.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,517

    Someone of your limited wit could try old bean, but you will fail, as you have just then. Sorry to tease, and it is so mean of me, as I know you self-righteous lefties are notoriously thin skinned. Oh, btw, did I mention, the Labour government is really shit. I mean really really shit.
    I'm mortified you think so. Truly.
  • How many Labour voters are thinking, "Yeah! This is exactly what we wanted from Keir and Rach"
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,817
    Lucy Letby. One thing glossed over is if the experts doubt the case against Nurse Letby, they are not saying the babies are still alive, or that this many deaths is normal, they are implicitly or explicitly condemning the whole antenatal unit.

    Lucy Letby didn’t murder a single baby, experts claim
    ...
    The neonatologist said if the Countess of Chester Hospital had been operating in Canada, it would have been shut down.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/04/lucy-letby-new-medical-evidence-live/ (£££)
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752

    No they are not more shit than the Tories, they haven't had enough time - yet.

    Your memory isn't very sharp is it?
    My memory is pretty good thanks. I see you are also feeling a bit cross about the labour government shitness too!. I mean, I can understand it. There were many of us that felt relieved that Labour had at last found someone to lead their party that seemed half sensible and competent. But as soon as they have got into power the illusion has fallen apart. Their budget was an economic disaster and Starmer clearly couldn't lead a flock of sheep. His negotiating skills are best described as capitulatory. The man and his government are a joke. A very unfunny joke.
  • How many Labour voters are thinking, "Yeah! This is exactly what we wanted from Keir and Rach"

    @kinabalu waves hello.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,062

    AIUI the money is intended as compensation for evicting the Chagos Islanders from their homes. So presumably a failure to make a deal would leave us open to future legal action from the Chagos Islanders.
    Crawley borough council could probably do with the cash.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,948
    edited February 4

    Lucy Letby. One thing glossed over is if the experts doubt the case against Nurse Letby, they are not saying the babies are still alive, or that this many deaths is normal, they are implicitly or explicitly condemning the whole antenatal unit.

    Lucy Letby didn’t murder a single baby, experts claim
    ...
    The neonatologist said if the Countess of Chester Hospital had been operating in Canada, it would have been shut down.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/04/lucy-letby-new-medical-evidence-live/ (£££)

    Yes, that's a massive call. Interesting to know how it's deducible - without any doubt whatsoever - from case notes.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,752
    kinabalu said:

    I'm mortified you think so. Truly.
    I wouldn't say I am mortified, but definitely a little disappointed to note that you are as uncritical of Starmer as HYUFD was of Johnson. I thought that you were more intelligent than the type of person that believes "my party right or wrong".

    The Labour government of Kier From HR is shit. He is utterly hopeless.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,050

    How many Labour voters are thinking, "Yeah! This is exactly what we wanted from Keir and Rach"

    Bigjohnowls?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,426

    Lucy Letby. One thing glossed over is if the experts doubt the case against Nurse Letby, they are not saying the babies are still alive, or that this many deaths is normal, they are implicitly or explicitly condemning the whole antenatal unit.

    Lucy Letby didn’t murder a single baby, experts claim
    ...
    The neonatologist said if the Countess of Chester Hospital had been operating in Canada, it would have been shut down.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/04/lucy-letby-new-medical-evidence-live/ (£££)

    Has she been martyred for the sake of the NHS?
  • ydoethur said:

    Bigjohnowls?
    Surely he didn't vote for Keir's "Tories"?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,050

    Surely he didn't vote for Keir's "Tories"?
    You didn’t say ‘ex’ Labour voter.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,993
    Omnium said:

    'Your barnett is fried'

    Malc - what does this mean? (Barnet can mean hair, but I can't see it in this context). I presume 'is fried' is much the same as 'is toast'?
    barnett = napper = head = brain = fried, simple
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,795

    Yes, that's a massive call. Interesting to know how it's deducible - without any doubt whatsoever - from case notes.
    I find it fascinating how politics and prior belief is dictating, to some, which way it goes.

    To me - either is *possible*. We’ve had murderers in the NHS. We’ve had units fail so badly they were shut down.

    Let justice be done.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,559
    The blindingly obvious solution to the Chagos problem is for the US to annex them while we shrug our shoulders and slink away, muttering to ourselves. Declare a 1,000-mile exclusion zone. Invite the president of Mauritius to peace talks in Guantanamo.

    A good rule of thumb is "What would the Chinese do?"
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557
    rcs1000 said:

    Likewise, which is why it makes me so furious to see so many of my tax pounds spent on feckless Scots.
    Cheers!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,050

    I find it fascinating how politics and prior belief is dictating, to some, which way it goes.

    To me - either is *possible*. We’ve had murderers in the NHS. We’ve had units fail so badly they were shut down.

    Let justice be done.
    Both are possible. But one has been tested in a court and found proven beyond reasonable doubt.

    Which is not to say it’s the correct one (Horizon, anyone?) but that the onus is now on those claiming another solution to come up with compelling evidence in support of it.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557
    malcolmg said:

    barnett = napper = head = brain = fried, simple
    I'm a feckless Scot (thanks for the tax money rcs!) but have never heard of 'barnett' being 'head'. Possibly because I'm feckless. 🤔.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,380
    malcolmg said:

    barnett = napper = head = brain = fried, simple
    Barnet Fair = Hair
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,860

    Has she been martyred for the sake of the NHS?
    I hate to agree with you William, although you may have a point. Whether she is guilty or not the management does seem like an utter shambles.

    I am reminded of my mother's death in the midst of the Princess of Wales, Bridgend scandal. Two Filipino nurses went to prison whilst the managers all remained in post.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited February 4

    I bet he would turn his back on a good idea from an SNP MSP.
    Well, his entire party (Scottish bit) (MSPs) just abstained from the budget vote. If that isn't turning his back on at least some good ideas - some from parties other than the SNP - I don't know what is. Couldn't be arsed to ask for changes, provide good ideas etc. in the way of doiong his bit in the other direction (so to speak) [edit].

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24910129.scottish-government-budget-passes-holyrood-vote-labour-abstain/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    ohnotnow said:

    I'm a feckless Scot (thanks for the tax money rcs!) but have never heard of 'barnett' being 'head'. Possibly because I'm feckless. 🤔.
    He's trying to translate for the feckless furth of.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,817

    Has she been martyred for the sake of the NHS?
    No. But she might have been martyred through poor understanding of probability in the criminal justice system, and by the medical profession.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited February 4

    No. But she might have been martyred through poor understanding of probability in the criminal justice system, and by the medical profession.
    There's also the issue of how many more might be martyred for reason a - and quite possibly b for all I know.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,616

    Lucy Letby. One thing glossed over is if the experts doubt the case against Nurse Letby, they are not saying the babies are still alive, or that this many deaths is normal, they are implicitly or explicitly condemning the whole antenatal unit.

    Lucy Letby didn’t murder a single baby, experts claim
    ...
    The neonatologist said if the Countess of Chester Hospital had been operating in Canada, it would have been shut down.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/04/lucy-letby-new-medical-evidence-live/ (£££)

    If it had been operating in Canada the babies would have been legally assisted to commit suicide.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,837

    Some people act as though the President has no more business getting involved in politics than King Charles.
    Some people spew as if the US Constitution didn't exist.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,616
    How much more evidence to people need before they accept that the NHS is shit. Actually worse than shit, actively dangerous.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,817

    Yes, that's a massive call. Interesting to know how it's deducible - without any doubt whatsoever - from case notes.
    Sheer numbers would tell you something was amiss, and to be fair, this was noticed. The problem is, women keep getting pregnant so it is hard to take entire units out of service for extended periods unless there is spare capacity at other local hospitals.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109
    TOPPING said:

    How much more evidence to people need before they accept that the NHS is shit. Actually worse than shit, actively dangerous.

    What's the latest evidence?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,616
    Andy_JS said:

    What's the latest evidence?
    Have you been following the Letby case.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,085

    The blindingly obvious solution to the Chagos problem is for the US to annex them while we shrug our shoulders and slink away, muttering to ourselves. Declare a 1,000-mile exclusion zone. Invite the president of Mauritius to peace talks in Guantanamo.

    A good rule of thumb is "What would the Chinese do?"

    I’m (nine) dashed if I know.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109

    Just seen that Ange has been put in charge of deciding our new blasphemy laws..

    With Dominic.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,016
    Alex Wickham
    @alexwickham
    Exclusive: Keir Starmer is for the first time facing criticism from within his cabinet over the Chagos deal

    *One person says they don’t understand why the UK is sending so much money to Mauritius when the Treasury is asking departments to make brutal spending cuts at home

    *Another says Starmer should cancel the deal

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1886863448241242190
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,085
    Carnyx said:
    Time we moved on from trendsetting tempura Mars Bars.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,738
    Cyclefree said:

    We already have a definition of discrimination on grounds of any religion in the Equality Act 2010. What do we need another - and likely wider - definition for?

    An Islamic blasphemy law - any sort of blasphemy law - has no place in this country in the 21st century.

    I know that Adam Smith said there was a great deal of ruin in a nation. But do our governments have to test this proposition to destruction every single sodding day? FFS!
    We do have a definition for anti-semitism, so why not one for Islamophobia too?
    The only one speaking of a new Blasphemy law is Jenrick, and he is against.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560

    Because Leon said so and has masterfully hijacked the thread. At first nobody bit, but by his third post everyone was putty in his hands.

    I don't know enough about the deal, although if Truss had her fingerprints on it it has the hallmark of a disaster.
    You've made more than three posts complaining about it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,485
    TOPPING said:

    How much more evidence to people need before they accept that the NHS is shit. Actually worse than shit, actively dangerous.

    Employing a killer nurse is very dangerous, I agree.
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 509
    edited February 4

    AIUI the money is intended as compensation for evicting the Chagos Islanders from their homes. So presumably a failure to make a deal would leave us open to future legal action from the Chagos Islanders.
    No it isn't.

    As part of the deal, the UK said it would provide a package of financial support to Mauritius, including annual payments and infrastructure investment, but neither side has said how much is involved... Speaking in parliament last week about the negotiations Bérenger admitted that Mauritius needs "money to get out of the economic mess the previous government got us into, but not at any price, not under any conditions". (BBC)

    Please don't confuse the narrative with verifiable data.

    Feel free to verify it, then.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,923
    ohnotnow said:

    I'm a feckless Scot (thanks for the tax money rcs!) but have never heard of 'barnett' being 'head'. Possibly because I'm feckless. 🤔.
    Malc accidentally used the wrong rhyming slang. Barnett is slang for hair (Barnett Fair), but Loaf is slang for head (Loaf Of Bread)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,380
    viewcode said:

    Malc accidentally used the wrong rhyming slang. Barnett is slang for hair (Barnett Fair), but Loaf is slang for head (Loaf Of Bread)
    Barnet Fair was mentioned upthread :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,590
    Foxy said:

    We do have a definition for anti-semitism, so why not one for Islamophobia too?
    The only one speaking of a new Blasphemy law is Jenrick, and he is against.
    No. We do not need one at all. What about "phobias" against Christians (all varieties) or Sikhs or Hindus or Buddhists or the many other religions there are?

    No: Rayner and Grieve can both fuck off. We are entitled to criticise Islam as much as we damn well like just like any other set of ideas. Discrimination against Muslims is already covered in law.
  • Foxy said:

    We do have a definition for anti-semitism, so why not one for Islamophobia too?
    The only one speaking of a new Blasphemy law is Jenrick, and he is against.
    You thought Mandelbrot was antisemitic, but don't see antisemitism at the incessant pro-Pal Jew-hating parades
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,811

    Yes, that's a massive call. Interesting to know how it's deducible - without any doubt whatsoever - from case notes.
    It is of course possible that all these things are true: Letby is guilty of some or all of the 14 charges, and the hospital unit was useless, and that the expert evidence was imperfect, and that the court process was to some degree flawed, and for whatever reason the defence made errors, and some experts believe she is innocent.

    However, simplifying a bit, as there are 14 guilty verdicts on the most serious of charges, the Court of Appeal is only going to allow an appeal in whole (all 14) if all 14 convictions are unsafe individually.

    For this to be so, and for Letby to be actually innocent of all charges, in the circumstances of this case something strange must have occurred. (1) There are other murderers or murderer and Letby was unlucky or (2) There must have been what amounts to a joint conspiracy involving many to get her, despite knowing or believing they were wrong to do so and that she was innocent.

    I personally don't believe either account (1) or (2).

    The really big uphill struggle is going to be to cover all 14 cases with really compelling counter arguments. 13 won't be enough.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,738

    You thought Mandelbrot was antisemitic, but don't see antisemitism at the incessant pro-Pal Jew-hating parades
    Once again you are lying about me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,860
    Driver said:

    You've made more than three posts complaining about it.
    I'll make a fourth if you like.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    algarkirk said:

    It is of course possible that all these things are true: Letby is guilty of some or all of the 14 charges, and the hospital unit was useless, and that the expert evidence was imperfect, and that the court process was to some degree flawed, and for whatever reason the defence made errors, and some experts believe she is innocent.

    However, simplifying a bit, as there are 14 guilty verdicts on the most serious of charges, the Court of Appeal is only going to allow an appeal in whole (all 14) if all 14 convictions are unsafe individually.

    For this to be so, and for Letby to be actually innocent of all charges, in the circumstances of this case something strange must have occurred. (1) There are other murderers or murderer and Letby was unlucky or (2) There must have been what amounts to a joint conspiracy involving many to get her, despite knowing or believing they were wrong to do so and that she was innocent.

    I personally don't believe either account (1) or (2).

    The really big uphill struggle is going to be to cover all 14 cases with really compelling counter arguments. 13 won't be enough.
    Hang on - the prosecution would presumably have used the common element between all 14 as part of their argument? Now the reverse can't be argued in the appeal? How odd.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560

    I'll make a fourth if you like.
    Sure, if you want to be a hypocrite, be my guest!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,738
    edited February 4
    Cyclefree said:

    No. We do not need one at all. What about "phobias" against Christians (all varieties) or Sikhs or Hindus or Buddhists or the many other religions there are?

    No: Rayner and Grieve can both fuck off. We are entitled to criticise Islam as much as we damn well like just like any other set of ideas. Discrimination against Muslims is already covered in law.
    Why then do we have one for anti-semitism?

    I hope that you are not suggesting that there is no Islamophobia in our society.

    I have no problem with definitions and clarifications on other forms of discrimination too, such as misogyny.
  • Foxy said:

    Why then do we have one for anti-semitism?

    I hope that you are not suggesting that there is no Islamophobia in our society.

    I have no problem with definitions and clarifications on other forms of discrimination too, such as misogyny.
    You're happy for the law to identify and punish the misogyny inherent in Islam?

    Thought not
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    Foxy said:

    Why then do we have one for anti-semitism?
    Because reasons.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,738

    You're happy for the law to identify and punish the misogyny inherent in Islam?

    Thought not
    Yes, and I have criticised the misogyny of orthodox Islamism on here a number of times.

    It is perfectly possible to oppose all forms of bigotry. We do not have to choose.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,667
    Cyclefree said:

    No. We do not need one at all. What about "phobias" against Christians (all varieties) or Sikhs or Hindus or Buddhists or the many other religions there are?

    No: Rayner and Grieve can both fuck off. We are entitled to criticise Islam as much as we damn well like just like any other set of ideas. Discrimination against Muslims is already covered in law.
    This is a problem of terminology.

    I think most people would interpret Islamophobia as being irrational fear or hatred of Muslims, not of Islam. But it has the word “Islam” in it, which is confusing. But then the alternative - presumably “muslimophobia” - is awkward .
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,993

    You're happy for the law to identify and punish the misogyny inherent in Islam?

    Thought not
    OK;

    But if we're doing that, are we going to do the same with some of the more Frum bits of Orthodox Judaism that means that a woman cannot even shake the hand of a male acquaintance.

    Because we do want to be consistent right?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,667
    Foxy said:

    Yes, and I have criticised the misogyny of orthodox Islamism on here a number of times.

    It is perfectly possible to oppose all forms of bigotry. We do not have to choose.
    Wrong. This is the TwiX era. You have to choose. Beliefs now come as a package deal.
  • Foxy said:

    Yes, and I have criticised the misogyny of orthodox Islamism on here a number of times.

    It is perfectly possible to oppose all forms of bigotry. We do not have to choose.
    How many mosques treat men and women as equals?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,811
    Carnyx said:

    Hang on - the prosecution would presumably have used the common element between all 14 as part of their argument? Now the reverse can't be argued in the appeal? How odd.
    The jury will have been told that each individual case must be proved individually beyond reasonable doubt, no job lots, - and as we know they didn't return 100% guilty verdicts so they heard that point.

    They will also have been given guidance on how and whether certainty on count X might help them in deciding count Y etc, and whether it could be corroboration.

    But in logic, proof that you did not murder P is no evidence that you did not murder Q. There will always be lots of people you didn't murder - like unmurdred babies in the hospital. It is no help.

    So for an appeal to be any use (except perhaps for slightly reducing the sentence but put that aside) has to clearly show the unsafety of all 14 convictions individually. If, say, 9 were set aside it stuill leaves 5 and so on. This is an exceedingly uphill task, as I suspect the next few years are going to show.
This discussion has been closed.