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An interesting observation – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,320
edited February 18 in General
An interesting observation – politicalbetting.com

Wrote about this in @thesun in December https://t.co/FMTa3YF196

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,199
    First!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    edited February 1
    2nd. FPT because it deserves it.

    My photo quota today is in pursuit of my contention that Local Highways Authorities need their remit recreated from scratch to reflect the legal duty to treat all modes of travel equally, and adequate budget after 20 years of slashing the public realm.

    I've seen this sort of "cleanup" Youtube channel in the USA, but never here - except for a few people * who keep their local cycle tracks trimmed because their LHAs are butt-sitters.

    A passing cyclist mentioned that it had been like this for 6 years.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWwOsMmN54

    * eg, Belfast: https://x.com/BelfastCyclist1/status/1853117533643051140
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,085
    But, look to the approval ratings, to see the future direction of travel.

    *if* Farage or Badenoch is on -15% in 2029, and Starmer is on -45%, (a big if), Labour will lose and it won’t be close.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,943
    edited February 1
    Second. Like Farage in a lot of polls.

    Several caveats, though.

    In multiparty FPTP, the winning post can be somewhere in the low thirties percent. As we've seen.

    The efficiency matters more than the number of voters- I suspect that's what dooms Conservatives and Reform next time


    As for JJ's point- Farage doesn't have three electoral cycles left in his career. (Personally, I'm doubtful that he has one before tempus fugits.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,954
    Sean_F said:

    But, look to the approval ratings, to see the future direction of travel.

    *if* Farage or Badenoch is on -15% in 2029, and Starmer is on -45%, (a big if), Labour will lose and it won’t be close.

    Though it’s not all trends.

    I think it’s more like punctuated equilibrium. Within a set of “bands” (the current state of affairs) parties drift over time.

    The current status is that there are three, roughly equal parties. With ~25% of the vote each.

    What we are really waiting for, is the next punctuation. To change the current state of affairs.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957
    Anything can happen.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    What a load of bollocks

    Look at the trends and extrapolate

    But if Labourites seize on this and get even more complacent, all good
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,745
    I think we’re in such unprecedented psephological territory that it’s just very hard to make any predictions! FPTP just completely breaks down with so many parties.

    I note in Northern Ireland, where the parties compete under FPTP for Westminster elections, but otherwise experience STV, the parties have learnt to stand aside for each other often, or voters learn to vote tactically. In GB, will we see the same?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,628
    I agree. Things can change, but unless they do change Labour is on course to remain in government after the next election on current trends.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

  • Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,533
    MattW said:

    2nd. FPT because it deserves it.

    My photo quota today is in pursuit of my contention that Local Highways Authorities need their remit recreated from scratch to reflect the legal duty to treat all modes of travel equally, and adequate budget after 20 years of slashing the public realm.

    I've seen this sort of "cleanup" Youtube channel in the USA, but never here - except for a few people * who keep their local cycle tracks trimmed because their LHAs are butt-sitters.

    A passing cyclist mentioned that it had been like this for 6 years.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWwOsMmN54

    * eg, Belfast: https://x.com/BelfastCyclist1/status/1853117533643051140

    Oddly fascinating.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    FF43 said:

    I agree. Things can change, but unless they do change Labour is on course to remain in government after the next election on current trends.

    How do you work that out?

    ON CURRENT TRENDS Reform are rising, and the Tories and Labour are declining, the Tories perhaps somewhat faster

    That's the trend, whether you map it for this year or from the election. THAT IS IN THE GRAPH, UP THERE

    So on current trends Labour are headed for a bad defeat and Reform are going to be the next government. That is the "current trend", and that is what you need to change. You need the current trend to change
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    Well spotted

    That must be it? I cannot think of anything else
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957
    Some people still haven’t clocked the election is years away. They’re still fighting the last war. Lots to come before polling day,

    I can’t think of an election where you could actually predict the outcome in the first year of the preceding term.

    This time, last time, we were reliably informed that Boris had 10-15 years. In 2015 Cameron was triumphant, yet was gone in two years.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    edited February 1
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    2nd. FPT because it deserves it.

    My photo quota today is in pursuit of my contention that Local Highways Authorities need their remit recreated from scratch to reflect the legal duty to treat all modes of travel equally, and adequate budget after 20 years of slashing the public realm.

    I've seen this sort of "cleanup" Youtube channel in the USA, but never here - except for a few people * who keep their local cycle tracks trimmed because their LHAs are butt-sitters.

    A passing cyclist mentioned that it had been like this for 6 years.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWwOsMmN54

    * eg, Belfast: https://x.com/BelfastCyclist1/status/1853117533643051140

    Oddly fascinating.
    He's in Bexley.

    And this week's does flytipping - there's something about what happens when waste disposal is charged for too heavily.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    I look forward to my honourable mention in December when I've scored nul points.

    If I've actually got anything right I shall be extremely pissed off.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,806
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    Well spotted

    That must be it? I cannot think of anything else
    It can't be that - PB shrewdies and Tory well-wishers like Jonathan assured us she was the only choice.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,135
    edited February 1
    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    Thanks Ben!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    Also the budget

    But if it is that too, it's Reform benefitting, not Tories
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,533
    edited February 1

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    I did an entry. I kept a copy. This is it
    1.Labour 38, Tories 36, Lib Dem 22, Reform 39.
    2. Labour 22, Tories 18, Lib Dem 10, Reform 20.
    3.7
    4. 2
    5. 2
    6. 3
    7. 142
    8. 2.7%
    9. £120.5bn
    10. 1.1%
    11. 2.1%
    12 168 Rbl to $
    13. 4-0 Australia. :-(

    I will check when I did this against my posts. Edit 25th January on a thread headed about the competition.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    edited February 1
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    That depends on how much of a mess he makes.
    (Or, just possibly, doesn’t.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    After my twenty seat Conservative majority prediction on the last outing I am sitting this one out in disgrace.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    After my twenty seat Conservative majority prediction on the last outing I am sitting this one out in disgrace.
    Surely they must have had a majority of twenty in at least one seat?

    Oh, sorry, misunderstood you there.

    (TBF I disbelieved the polls too.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    Also the budget

    But if it is that too, it's Reform benefitting, not Tories
    Yes. No-one is planning to vote Tory because they think they know clearly what they stand for, have top quality leadership and because they are manifestly competent and have sorted out all their past problems. They are currently stuck on a darkling plain, and many members think Boris is their only hope. (Good luck with that one).

    Rightly or wrongly many people think they know what Reform plans to do, and to some extent how they plan to do it. (I think they are wrong, but it doesn't help me or others on how to vote).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Bloody hell another plane crash in the US. This one a little more straightforward than Wednesday’s though.

    It’s an old (1982) Learjet 55 operating a medical flight, that went down a minute or two after takeoff from Philadelphia, 6 people on board.

    There’s some horrible videos around of the crash and the aftermath, which was in a built-up area. There’s likely to be some injured on the ground, but the accident was unsurvivable for those on the plane, it came down fast and at a steep angle.

    Likely some sort of mechanical failure, ice on the wings, or related to the very poor visibility in the area at the time.

    https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/663941-learjet-nose-dives-philly-31-jan-2025-a-3.html

    Unlikely to be any political angle to this one, sadly small private plane crashes still happen quite a bit.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,943

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    Eyeballing the graph, Labour's decline has a definite kink around there as well. Not quite stopped, but definitely slowing and if you put a flat line through the points, it wouldn't be obviously wrong.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,139
    Sandpit said:

    Bloody hell another plane crash in the US. This one a little more straightforward than Wednesday’s though.

    It’s an old (1982) Learjet 55 operating a medical flight, that went down a minute or two after takeoff from Philadelphia, 6 people on board.

    There’s some horrible videos around of the crash and the aftermath, which was in a built-up area. There’s likely to be some injured on the ground, but the accident was unsurvivable for those on the plane, it came down fast and at a steep angle.

    Likely some sort of mechanical failure, ice on the wings, or related to the very poor visibility in the area at the time.

    https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/663941-learjet-nose-dives-philly-31-jan-2025-a-3.html

    Unlikely to be any political angle to this one, sadly small private plane crashes still happen quite a bit.

    As I said earlier I still expect Trump to talk about DEI targets at the maintenance company...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    Well spotted

    That must be it? I cannot think of anything else
    It can't be that - PB shrewdies and Tory well-wishers like Jonathan assured us she was the only choice.
    Eh? Kemi was obviously superior to Jenrick, but currently manifests less raw electoral appeal than chicken pox.

    I wonder who will play Corbyn/IDS to her Milliband/Hague
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,977
    DavidL said:

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    I did an entry. I kept a copy. This is it
    1.Labour 38, Tories 36, Lib Dem 22, Reform 39.
    2. Labour 22, Tories 18, Lib Dem 10, Reform 20.
    3.7
    4. 2
    5. 2
    6. 3
    7. 142
    8. 2.7%
    9. £120.5bn
    10. 1.1%
    11. 2.1%
    12 168 Rbl to $
    13. 4-0 Australia. :-(

    I will check when I did this against my posts. Edit 25th January on a thread headed about the competition.
    Thanks David - I've found it https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5099196/#Comment_5099196

    You're in!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    That depends on how much of a mess he makes.
    (Or, just possibly, doesn’t.)
    Yes, but this is about this moment. Trump's position is in one respect like Reform's: the other ways of working have not very well have they? So try this one.

    WRT UK polling, unless you are SNP with its single issue it is almost impossible to find affirmative reasons for voting for anyone at all. Reform look different in this respect. (Which is not to say that they are).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999
    ydoethur said:

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    After my twenty seat Conservative majority prediction on the last outing I am sitting this one out in disgrace.
    Surely they must have had a majority of twenty in at least one seat?

    Oh, sorry, misunderstood you there.

    (TBF I disbelieved the polls too.)
    Well the polls were wrong. Reality gave us plus five for the Tories, minus five for Labour. Channelling my inner HYUFD, if we apply that rule today the Tories would be a cool circa five points ahead and Kemi is safe and Starmer is back in Hartlepool territory.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    MattW said:

    2nd. FPT because it deserves it.

    My photo quota today is in pursuit of my contention that Local Highways Authorities need their remit recreated from scratch to reflect the legal duty to treat all modes of travel equally, and adequate budget after 20 years of slashing the public realm.

    I've seen this sort of "cleanup" Youtube channel in the USA, but never here - except for a few people * who keep their local cycle tracks trimmed because their LHAs are butt-sitters.

    A passing cyclist mentioned that it had been like this for 6 years.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWwOsMmN54

    * eg, Belfast: https://x.com/BelfastCyclist1/status/1853117533643051140

    It’s not just trimming stuff back it’s taking the mess away. I’ve had two punctures locally where they have come along and trimmed the bushes back from the road, left the litter and the small branches harden and become like spikes.

    Fucking Durham council.

    Fortunately both times were less than half a mile from home.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    2nd. FPT because it deserves it.

    My photo quota today is in pursuit of my contention that Local Highways Authorities need their remit recreated from scratch to reflect the legal duty to treat all modes of travel equally, and adequate budget after 20 years of slashing the public realm.

    I've seen this sort of "cleanup" Youtube channel in the USA, but never here - except for a few people * who keep their local cycle tracks trimmed because their LHAs are butt-sitters.

    A passing cyclist mentioned that it had been like this for 6 years.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWwOsMmN54

    * eg, Belfast: https://x.com/BelfastCyclist1/status/1853117533643051140

    It’s not just trimming stuff back it’s taking the mess away. I’ve had two punctures locally where they have come along and trimmed the bushes back from the road, left the litter and the small branches harden and become like spikes.

    Fucking Durham council.

    Fortunately both times were less than half a mile from home.
    Have councils now given up on pretty much anything that isn’t social care or property speculation?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    That depends on how much of a mess he makes.
    (Or, just possibly, doesn’t.)
    Yes, but this is about this moment. Trump's position is in one respect like Reform's: the other ways of working have not very well have they? So try this one.
    The problem with that logic is they tried this eight years ago and it was a disaster.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,628
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    I agree. Things can change, but unless they do change Labour is on course to remain in government after the next election on current trends.

    How do you work that out?

    ON CURRENT TRENDS Reform are rising, and the Tories and Labour are declining, the Tories perhaps somewhat faster

    That's the trend, whether you map it for this year or from the election. THAT IS IN THE GRAPH, UP THERE

    So on current trends Labour are headed for a bad defeat and Reform are going to be the next government. That is the "current trend", and that is what you need to change. You need the current trend to change
    For either to win the Conservatives or Reform probably need to knock the other one out. That could happen but hasn't yet. They could do an electoral pact but no sign of that either.

    Elections are zero sum games. If you are not winning, the other guy will, by default. The other guy in this case is Labour.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,911

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    "Is it cos I is black?"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185

    ydoethur said:

    Hi All,

    Entries to the PB Prediction Competition are now closed.

    I will make the spreadsheet of entries available in the not too distant future (that's a prediction!) but in the meantime I have recorded entries from the following people. If you think you have entered but are not listed below please PM me or post a comment with the word 'competition' in and I'll try to find your entry. (One person was so enthusiastic they entered twice, I assume by mistake, I'll be taking their second entry as the official one.)

    Entries received from:

    algarkirk
    Barnesian
    BartholomewRoberts
    BatteryCorrectHorse
    Benpointer
    Big_G_NorthWales
    CharlieShark
    Cookie
    DoctorG
    Driver
    Eabhal
    Essexit
    Fairliered
    FF43
    Foss
    Foxy
    Gingray
    hamiltonace
    HYUFD
    IanB2
    kinabalu
    Lennon
    madmacs
    malcolmg
    Malmesbury
    MarqueeMark
    MattW
    Maxh
    Morris_Dancer
    MrBristol
    NickPalmer
    NickyBreakspear
    No_Offence_Alan
    Northern_Al
    OldKingCole
    Omnium
    OnlyLivingBoy
    Pagan2
    paulo
    Pro_Rata
    Pulpstar
    rkrkrk
    rottenborough
    SandyRentool
    sarissa
    Sean_F
    Selebian
    Shecorns88
    Stuartinromford
    Sunil_Prasannan
    Taz
    turbotubbs
    ydoethur

    After my twenty seat Conservative majority prediction on the last outing I am sitting this one out in disgrace.
    Surely they must have had a majority of twenty in at least one seat?

    Oh, sorry, misunderstood you there.

    (TBF I disbelieved the polls too.)
    Well the polls were wrong. Reality gave us plus five for the Tories, minus five for Labour. Channelling my inner HYUFD, if we apply that rule today the Tories would be a cool circa five points ahead and Kemi is safe and Starmer is back in Hartlepool territory.
    The polls weren't entirely wrong, indeed they got the size of the majority pretty accurately.

    The Labour vote turned out where it needed to, hence gaining Truss' seat, but didn't turn out, or went LD/Green/Indy where the Tories looked like toast. When the tide is running the other way, particularly if Reform is still polling strongly then they may well turnout rather more.

    I think that Labour will have another term, but possibly as a minority government.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    2nd. FPT because it deserves it.

    My photo quota today is in pursuit of my contention that Local Highways Authorities need their remit recreated from scratch to reflect the legal duty to treat all modes of travel equally, and adequate budget after 20 years of slashing the public realm.

    I've seen this sort of "cleanup" Youtube channel in the USA, but never here - except for a few people * who keep their local cycle tracks trimmed because their LHAs are butt-sitters.

    A passing cyclist mentioned that it had been like this for 6 years.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWwOsMmN54

    * eg, Belfast: https://x.com/BelfastCyclist1/status/1853117533643051140

    It’s not just trimming stuff back it’s taking the mess away. I’ve had two punctures locally where they have come along and trimmed the bushes back from the road, left the litter and the small branches harden and become like spikes.

    Fucking Durham council.

    Fortunately both times were less than half a mile from home.
    Anecdotal evidence suggests blackthorn is the main culprit for that.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,943
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    Well spotted

    That must be it? I cannot think of anything else
    It can't be that - PB shrewdies and Tory well-wishers like Jonathan assured us she was the only choice.
    Eh? Kemi was obviously superior to Jenrick, but currently manifests less raw electoral appeal than chicken pox.

    I wonder who will play Corbyn/IDS to her Milliband/Hague
    Kemi's badness was known at the time. Her failings since winning the leadership (onlineness, inability to let it lie, unwillingness to do any actual work) were trailed in advance and have come to pass.

    But if she is chicken pox, the alternative remains a rather more intimate pox. Sometimes, your choice is just bad or worse.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957
    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    In an entirely admirable desire not to be superficial populists chasing easy headlines in the Mail, the govt gave the innovative political philosophy of unpopulism a try.

    It does seem that they have stepped away from that recently.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    Badenoch became Tory leader.
    Well spotted

    That must be it? I cannot think of anything else
    It can't be that - PB shrewdies and Tory well-wishers like Jonathan assured us she was the only choice.
    Eh? Kemi was obviously superior to Jenrick, but currently manifests less raw electoral appeal than chicken pox.

    I wonder who will play Corbyn/IDS to her Milliband/Hague
    Kemi's badness was known at the time. Her failings since winning the leadership (onlineness, inability to let it lie, unwillingness to do any actual work) were trailed in advance and have come to pass.

    But if she is chicken pox, the alternative remains a rather more intimate pox. Sometimes, your choice is just bad or worse.
    My problem with Badenoch is that the more you see the less there is. Lots of noise, little else. But you are right, the alternative could be worse.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,806
    Jonathan said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    In an entirely admirable desire not to be superficial populists chasing easy headlines in the Mail, the govt gave the innovative political philosophy of unpopulism a try.

    It does seem that they have stepped away from that recently.
    They were trying to be superficial populists. They intended to 'take the tough decisions' (taxes and cuts blaming the Tories) in the early parliament, then roll out the pork as the election neared 'because of the tough decisions we took earlier in the parliament'. That's a Labour strategy as old as Gordon Brown and probably far older. But this time round the parlous state of the UK economy meant it wasn't robust enough to withstand their stupid parlour games.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    This guy is an absolute loon (even by Trump standards).

    Curtis Yarvin’s Ideas Were Fringe. Now They’re Coursing Through Trump’s Washington.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/01/30/curtis-yarvins-ideas-00201552
    On the weekend of Donald Trump’s inauguration, the neo-reactionary blogger Curtis Yarvin traveled to Washington, D.C., for the Coronation Ball, a glitzy inaugural gala hosted by the ultraconservative publishing house Passage Press. The gathering, hosted in the ballroom of the Watergate Hotel, was designed to celebrate the ascent of the new conservative counter-elite that has risen to power on the tide of Trump’s reelection — and Yarvin, who has arguably done more than anyone to shape the thinking of that nascent group, was an informal guest of honor.

    Even the ball’s name spoke to Yarvin’s outsize influence over the Trumpian right: For over a decade, Yarvin, an ex-computer programmer-turned-blogger, has argued that American democracy is irrevocably broken and ought to be replaced with a monarchy styled after a Silicon Valley tech start-up. According to Yarvin, the time has come to jettison existing democratic institutions and concentrate political power in a single “chief executive” or “dictator.” These ideas — which Yarvin calls “neo-reaction” or “the Dark Enlightenment” — were once confined to the fringes of the internet, but now, with Trump’s reelection, they are finding a newly powerful audience in Washington...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,980

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    Are the Tories in favour of PR yet?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957

    Jonathan said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    In an entirely admirable desire not to be superficial populists chasing easy headlines in the Mail, the govt gave the innovative political philosophy of unpopulism a try.

    It does seem that they have stepped away from that recently.
    They were trying to be superficial populists. They intended to 'take the tough decisions' (taxes and cuts blaming the Tories) in the early parliament, then roll out the pork as the election neared 'because of the tough decisions we took earlier in the parliament'. That's a Labour strategy as old as Gordon Brown and probably far older. But this time round the parlous state of the UK economy meant it wasn't robust enough to withstand their stupid parlour games.
    You can criticise Labour in many ways, but there is no way policies like means testing the WFA are populist moves,
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
    If they do nothing else than that, it won’t be enough - but it would be an improvement on the last government.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    Are the Tories in favour of PR yet?
    They certainly need better people in charge of PR.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    edited February 1
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
    We are about to enter the eighth month of a five year term, and are over 10% of the way through this government. While there is lots of waffle, I have no idea what at this stage they have actually implemented, clearly timetabled and achieved of the sort that makes a difference to our lives.

    Eg:

    Ambulances
    Rail from Liverpool to Hull
    A and E
    GP appointments
    Planning law
    Ties to EU
    Boats/migration
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    edited February 1
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
    If they do nothing else than that, it won’t be enough - but it would be an improvement on the last government.
    Oh indeed they were just as bad. Rishi Sunak and his “Stop The Boats” lectern sign, the Rwanda plan that didn’t appear to be an actual plan at all, rather he was happy to try and make political capital from the opposition to it - all while allowing visas for 800,000 unproductive people such as dependents of foreign students.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,367
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    That depends on how much of a mess he makes.
    (Or, just possibly, doesn’t.)
    Yes, but this is about this moment. Trump's position is in one respect like Reform's: the other ways of working have not very well have they? So try this one.
    The problem with that logic is they tried this eight years ago and it was a disaster.
    Eight years ago, America had President Trump and four years of chaos. Now, America has the hard men of Project 2025 hiding behind that guy off The Apprentice. It is not the same.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/
    WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
    Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists..

    .. The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
    "We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications….
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    Yes. And among the casualties may be the idea of Lab+LD v Tory+Reform. It is perfectly possible that by the next election it just won't be true that the centre left must win because the right is split. It is obvious that Reform's route to success runs through WWC voters, the north, deindustrialised places etc. And perhaps rather more than it runs through Arundel and the Cotswolds. Reform plans to split the left as well.

    And it is perfectly sensible to categorise them as a centrist left nationalist patriotic Poujadeist 1950s social democratic Gaitskellite party, at least in how they present themselves.
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 119
    competition
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108
    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    Nigelb said:

    Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/
    WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
    Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists..

    .. The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
    "We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications….

    This is almost certainly illegal, of course.
    But I’m not sure that’s going to matter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    edited February 1
    More good news from Russia, another couple of crosses on the O&G facility bingo card!

    https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1885429999634710799

    Edit: not just O&G facilities, but chemical factories as well.

    https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1885599105067446492
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,165
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    If the centre right can tie reducing the state in to a reforming narrative, the election is theirs for the taking.

    Most people I know voted for Starmer. They're furious already....!
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/
    WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
    Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists..

    .. The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
    "We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications….

    This is almost certainly illegal, of course.
    But I’m not sure that’s going to matter.
    Not with this administration, doubly not with their puppet supreme court to absolve them of responsibility for anything. That constitution of theirs which they think is so superior is about as much use as any other piece of paper when subjected to a sufficiently adept and well-prepared autocrat willing to use it to wipe his arse.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,165
    edited February 1
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
    We are about to enter the eighth month of a five year term, and are over 10% of the way through this government. While there is lots of waffle, I have no idea what at this stage they have actually implemented, clearly timetabled and achieved of the sort that makes a difference to our lives.

    Eg:

    Ambulances
    Rail from Liverpool to Hull
    A and E
    GP appointments
    Planning law
    Ties to EU
    Boats/migration
    This govt is full of lawyers and civil servant/think-tank types, not implementers or disrupters- is it any huge surprise that waffle is their main output?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,367

    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.

    Was he struck off the professional register, separately from being convicted? Have a look at the Law Society's history pages to check when they became the body responsible for registration rather than a glorified craft guild, and then ask their librarian and/or archivist if you can see the register for those years, and possibly any disciplinary hearings if your relative goes missing from the register.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957
    If a paradigm has shifted, it’s the fall of the free trade pro business conservative centre right replaced by the nationalist, protectionist “fuck business” populist right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    You simply don’t understand how everything has changed. You’re still looking at it through the old lens
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,954
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    The problem with “arguing out immigration” as you do above, is that immigration is a real issue.

    The population is increasing in the fashion of a developing country. Yet we have people applauding because the government says one new runway on airport will take ten years.

    If you look at GDP per head, it’s pretty stark.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185
    edited February 1
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
    We are about to enter the eighth month of a five year term, and are over 10% of the way through this government. While there is lots of waffle, I have no idea what at this stage they have actually implemented, clearly timetabled and achieved of the sort that makes a difference to our lives.

    Eg:

    Ambulances
    Rail from Liverpool to Hull
    A and E
    GP appointments
    Planning law
    Ties to EU
    Boats/migration
    We should shortly see some figures on whether delivery is actually occurring. Currently we only have migration figures for the first half of the year, not the Starmer era. Similarly we need up to date NHS waiting list figures. The November figures showed a drop of 200 000 to 7.5 million from the peak, but it has been a bad flu season so hard to be sure yet that there has been sustained progress.

    I don't know how things are in other areas, but if Labour are to be judged on delivery, then we do need up to date figures.

    Whether "deliverism" will be good enough to deliver a second term for Labour over anecdote and bad first impression is too early to tell. I think that it will require a change of leadership to a more positive and charismatic leader in 2028 too.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,367
    pigeon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/
    WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
    Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists..

    .. The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
    "We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications….

    This is almost certainly illegal, of course.
    But I’m not sure that’s going to matter.
    Not with this administration, doubly not with their puppet supreme court to absolve them of responsibility for anything. That constitution of theirs which they think is so superior is about as much use as any other piece of paper when subjected to a sufficiently adept and well-prepared autocrat willing to use it to wipe his arse.
    America is exploring the limits of the good chap theory of government.
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 119
    November 2024? Cleverly not in final two? One of Jenrick or Badenoch seen as new leader.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    edited February 1

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    The problem with “arguing out immigration” as you do above, is that immigration is a real issue.

    The population is increasing in the fashion of a developing country. Yet we have people applauding because the government says one new runway on airport will take ten years.

    If you look at GDP per head, it’s pretty stark.
    Real GDP per capita is barely above the 2008 level, and has spent more than half of the period since then below it.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/mwb6/ukea

    That’s before you remember that the inflation measure doesn’t include housing costs, and that the lowest income quartile sees significantly higher inflation than the headline number suggests.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Mortimer said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    If the centre right can tie reducing the state in to a reforming narrative, the election is theirs for the taking.

    Most people I know voted for Starmer. They're furious already....!
    As always, the word "if" does a lot of heavy lifting there. The Opposition has an heroic task on its hands convincing anybody that shrinking the size of the state and cutting taxes accordingly is consistent with voters being able to get a GP appointment when they need it or have their child educated in a school that isn't falling down around them. There are good reasons why the item that caused the most screaming in the budget was the WFA rather than the NI hike, even though the latter was the biggest mistake.

    The country is rotting. Repairing and rebuilding it is going to cost a lot of money, and that can't all be magically put right without public sector investment, which means tax. The Right has no good response to this.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021

    pigeon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/
    WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
    Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists..

    .. The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
    "We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications….

    This is almost certainly illegal, of course.
    But I’m not sure that’s going to matter.
    Not with this administration, doubly not with their puppet supreme court to absolve them of responsibility for anything. That constitution of theirs which they think is so superior is about as much use as any other piece of paper when subjected to a sufficiently adept and well-prepared autocrat willing to use it to wipe his arse.
    America is exploring the limits of the good chap theory of government.
    His supporters are over the moon so far, their only complaints are about the GOP Senators not getting through the confirmations quickly enough.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108

    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.

    Was he struck off the professional register, separately from being convicted? Have a look at the Law Society's history pages to check when they became the body responsible for registration rather than a glorified craft guild, and then ask their librarian and/or archivist if you can see the register for those years, and possibly any disciplinary hearings if your relative goes missing from the register.
    Thanks.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,491

    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.

    Not an expert but I suspect that having paid his debt to society he was expected to resume a useful existence. To be unpersoned for life was an idea first invented by George Orwell and enthusiastically endorsed by successive governments ever since.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,505
    Crazy story about how jumping spiders screwed up development plans.
    https://bsky.app/profile/roadscholar.bsky.social/post/3lh456jms7c2w
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    edited February 1
    pigeon said:

    Mortimer said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    If the centre right can tie reducing the state in to a reforming narrative, the election is theirs for the taking.

    Most people I know voted for Starmer. They're furious already....!
    As always, the word "if" does a lot of heavy lifting there. The Opposition has an heroic task on its hands convincing anybody that shrinking the size of the state and cutting taxes accordingly is consistent with voters being able to get a GP appointment when they need it or have their child educated in a school that isn't falling down around them. There are good reasons why the item that caused the most screaming in the budget was the WFA rather than the NI hike, even though the latter was the biggest mistake.

    The country is rotting. Repairing and rebuilding it is going to cost a lot of money, and that can't all be magically put right without public sector investment, which means tax. The Right has no good response to this.
    The only real response from the right is going to be the Trump approach, of a bull in a china shop starting with a zero-based budget and needing to justify every single line item.

    It’s much more difficult in the UK though, there’s simply not the bureaucratic overhead that there is in the US, nor the thousands of ‘programmes’ that appear to little except enrich those working for them, and the overlap between Federal and State programmes.

    But yes, by the next Election Badenoch is going to have to articulate an argument for reducing the scope of the State if she wants to see tax cuts.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    Jonathan said:

    If a paradigm has shifted, it’s the fall of the free trade pro business conservative centre right replaced by the nationalist, protectionist “fuck business” populist right.

    Yes, I think that's correct

    Britain has enjoyed or endured spectacular levels of immigration in the last 10-20 years. We are constantly assured this contributes to growth. Yet, as @Sandpit shows, the reality is that GDP per capita has not grown at all even as our population has exploded by many millions, putting pressure on everything - from sewage systems to landscapes, from education to health. Meanwhile our cities crumble and we have very real and unpleasant social problems stemming from the migration

    Now we are told "another 5 million must come in the next ten years". Why? What the fuck? We don't want any more. Polls show that voters - by almost 2 to 1 - would rather have LESS immigration EVEN IF IT COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF GROWTH

    https://x.com/GideonSkinner/status/1884199390463799730/photo/1

    No one buys the "growth" shit any more, and even if they do, they are past caring

    I predict that the party which most convincingly argues that it will curtail immigration in 2028 will do very well, and will likely win. Labour cannot do that, the Tories can't, not any more, so we are left with Reform
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398

    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.

    Was he struck off the professional register, separately from being convicted? Have a look at the Law Society's history pages to check when they became the body responsible for registration rather than a glorified craft guild, and then ask their librarian and/or archivist if you can see the register for those years, and possibly any disciplinary hearings if your relative goes missing from the register.
    Hello OKC! The National Archives online bookshop does have guides to Tracing your XXXX Ancestors - in this instance the ones for Legal and for Criminal are unaccountably separate ...

    https://shop.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search?type=product&q=tracing ancestors law*
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108

    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.

    Not an expert but I suspect that having paid his debt to society he was expected to resume a useful existence. To be unpersoned for life was an idea first invented by George Orwell and enthusiastically endorsed by successive governments ever since.
    I'm inclined to agree in principle; in the profession I know most about, pharmacy, someone who 'sinned' legally would, in my day, quite possibly be struck off the professional register, but quietly allowed to return after what the authorities considered a reasonable time.
    Happened to a college friend of mine.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,165
    pigeon said:

    Mortimer said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    If the centre right can tie reducing the state in to a reforming narrative, the election is theirs for the taking.

    Most people I know voted for Starmer. They're furious already....!
    As always, the word "if" does a lot of heavy lifting there. The Opposition has an heroic task on its hands convincing anybody that shrinking the size of the state and cutting taxes accordingly is consistent with voters being able to get a GP appointment when they need it or have their child educated in a school that isn't falling down around them. There are good reasons why the item that caused the most screaming in the budget was the WFA rather than the NI hike, even though the latter was the biggest mistake.

    The country is rotting. Repairing and rebuilding it is going to cost a lot of money, and that can't all be magically put right without public sector investment, which means tax. The Right has no good response to this.
    I'm not convinced by this argument. The response is that the process state is in fact the problem.

    More and more frequently I hear those in the middle class deciding upon funding their own private healthcare, bemoaning the tax on private education etc.

    The state's inability doesn't come from shortage of funds, but from a poverty of expectation, and what seems like a boundless desire to stifle innovation and progress with regulation and overcaution.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    edited February 1
    Badenoch needs to sack Priti Patel

    She needs to show the voters

    1. She's serious

    2. She's ruthless

    3. She's entirely sincere in her apology for the Boriswave

    4. The Tories are genuinely moving on

    Sack Patel
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,477
    Good morning. The media will start to lose interest now that the released hostages are men, rather than attractive young women.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398
    rkrkrk said:

    Crazy story about how jumping spiders screwed up development plans.
    https://bsky.app/profile/roadscholar.bsky.social/post/3lh456jms7c2w

    " .. site of special scientific interest (SSSI). Which means you can’t build on it."

    Eh? Surely that's not true.

    (Being a SSSI means IIRC that advice has to be taken from the rselevant agency, and fed into planning. But it's not a total ban.)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108

    Good morning. The media will start to lose interest now that the released hostages are men, rather than attractive young women.

    I must say that I'm surprised at how physically well the hostages seem. On TV at least.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Potential conflict of interest here?

    Ed Miliband’s Department for Energy, Security and Net Zero signed off last week on Heckington Fen Solar Park, a 524-hectare solar farm in Lincolnshire owned by Dale Vince’s green energy company, Ecotricity.
    Mr Vince’s Ecotricity has donated £5.4 million to Labour since 2021, making him one of the party’s most generous business backers.
    There is clearly no connection between these two facts.


    Andrew Neil. https://x.com/afneil/status/1885498005664457001
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    If a paradigm has shifted, it’s the fall of the free trade pro business conservative centre right replaced by the nationalist, protectionist “fuck business” populist right.

    Yes, I think that's correct

    Britain has enjoyed or endured spectacular levels of immigration in the last 10-20 years. We are constantly assured this contributes to growth. Yet, as @Sandpit shows, the reality is that GDP per capita has not grown at all even as our population has exploded by many millions, putting pressure on everything - from sewage systems to landscapes, from education to health. Meanwhile our cities crumble and we have very real and unpleasant social problems stemming from the migration

    Now we are told "another 5 million must come in the next ten years". Why? What the fuck? We don't want any more. Polls show that voters - by almost 2 to 1 - would rather have LESS immigration EVEN IF IT COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF GROWTH

    https://x.com/GideonSkinner/status/1884199390463799730/photo/1

    No one buys the "growth" shit any more, and even if they do, they are past caring

    I predict that the party which most convincingly argues that it will curtail immigration in 2028 will do very well, and will likely win. Labour cannot do that, the Tories can't, not any more, so we are left with Reform
    Was talking with a builder yesterday working alone. They can’t hire labourers or apprentices. The work is too hard apparently. Not the first time I heard that story.

    Someone has to do the hard work.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Are Labour in a good position in the polls? No. Are they “on course for re-election”? Far too early to say.

    Yes what they have going for them is a divided opposition but they are at the mercy of what happens to that opposition. A long road to travel on that front before we start thinking of the next GE. Conversely, there’s still plenty of time for them to start improving.

    At this stage it's hard to see past another Labour -led Government. Crudely put, the more likely a Trumpian breakthrough in poor people places looks, the greater the stampede towards Ed Davey in rich people places.

    You can't assemble a right-wing majority in the Commons if you've got the large bulk of the city vote, Scotland and half of Southern England running away from you screaming.
    An awful lot of southern England wants net zero immigration. As that is where the immigration pressures are highest, and where they will only worsen

    People on here don’t seem to understand that the entire paradigm has shifted
    There's a generalised sense that immigration is totally out of control, because it is, but it's not about to win the populist right an election because other considerations will come ahead of it. Rich people places don't, by and large, want cultural conservatism, and they don't want a fresh round of isolationism and angry arguments with the EU either. Nor does "coming here, taking all our jobs" type rhetoric wash in regions with low unemployment and skills shortages in key areas: research on immigration shows that opposition quickly softens as soon as you ask if people want more nurses letting in, for example. And whilst it is true that people, generally, loathe development - which is an inevitable consequence of too many other flipping people - NIMBY battles are fought locally. You're not going to vote for a change of Government to get rid of unwanted Barratt Boxes, you're just going to scream in the hope that they get dumped in the way of someone else's countryside view instead.

    The next election, whenever it comes, will be decided based on 1. voters' wallets, followed by 2. public services, mainly health. If Labour is making tangible improvements in these areas by 2028, it wins easily. If things are still a complete mess, on the other hand, then what? Is either flavour of the Right going to be able to offer anything other than the same old tired formula of dismantling the state to fund tax giveaways, and blaming immigrants/Europe for stuff that goes wrong? There's precious little sign of it, and that approach won't win anything remotely close to the necessary number of seats.
    The problem with “arguing out immigration” as you do above, is that immigration is a real issue.

    The population is increasing in the fashion of a developing country. Yet we have people applauding because the government says one new runway on airport will take ten years.

    If you look at GDP per head, it’s pretty stark.
    I'm not arguing that immigration isn't important. The question was more whether it was important enough to be able to swing an election, of which I am not convinced.

    To what extent our mediocre economic performance can be attributed to imported labour suppressing wages and discouraging businesses from investing in skills and automation, and to what extent it's down to the immense problem of an ever-growing percentage of unproductive and expensive to support elderly people in society (for which drafting in immigrants is a cheap quick fix), is evidently a matter for debate.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,339
    edited February 1
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    If a paradigm has shifted, it’s the fall of the free trade pro business conservative centre right replaced by the nationalist, protectionist “fuck business” populist right.

    Yes, I think that's correct

    Britain has enjoyed or endured spectacular levels of immigration in the last 10-20 years. We are constantly assured this contributes to growth. Yet, as @Sandpit shows, the reality is that GDP per capita has not grown at all even as our population has exploded by many millions, putting pressure on everything - from sewage systems to landscapes, from education to health. Meanwhile our cities crumble and we have very real and unpleasant social problems stemming from the migration

    Now we are told "another 5 million must come in the next ten years". Why? What the fuck? We don't want any more. Polls show that voters - by almost 2 to 1 - would rather have LESS immigration EVEN IF IT COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF GROWTH

    https://x.com/GideonSkinner/status/1884199390463799730/photo/1

    No one buys the "growth" shit any more, and even if they do, they are past caring
    I think that's true. There are exceptions for very highly motivated or wealthy individuals, but generally per capita growth does not generally come from opening the floodgates to unskilled or semi-skilled immigration - it comes from low taxes, low but efficient government spending and light but effective regulation.

    In short the exact opposite of the route we've been following for more than twenty years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    If a paradigm has shifted, it’s the fall of the free trade pro business conservative centre right replaced by the nationalist, protectionist “fuck business” populist right.

    Yes, I think that's correct

    Britain has enjoyed or endured spectacular levels of immigration in the last 10-20 years. We are constantly assured this contributes to growth. Yet, as @Sandpit shows, the reality is that GDP per capita has not grown at all even as our population has exploded by many millions, putting pressure on everything - from sewage systems to landscapes, from education to health. Meanwhile our cities crumble and we have very real and unpleasant social problems stemming from the migration

    Now we are told "another 5 million must come in the next ten years". Why? What the fuck? We don't want any more. Polls show that voters - by almost 2 to 1 - would rather have LESS immigration EVEN IF IT COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF GROWTH

    https://x.com/GideonSkinner/status/1884199390463799730/photo/1

    No one buys the "growth" shit any more, and even if they do, they are past caring

    I predict that the party which most convincingly argues that it will curtail immigration in 2028 will do very well, and will likely win. Labour cannot do that, the Tories can't, not any more, so we are left with Reform
    Was talking with a builder yesterday working alone. They can’t hire labourers or apprentices. The work is too hard apparently. Not the first time I heard that story.

    Someone has to do the hard work.
    Yes, robots. And I'm quite serious
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,901
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    The more interesting question for me is: what happened in about November 2024 to send Reform surging? Because their rise has been slow but relentless since

    There may be other things, but from November 2024, the new government had had four months to command the narrative and dismally failed, the Tories appointed Badenoch who so far has not done well, boats and migration figures have not helped Labour, nor have tax rises. Also does Trump's election make a difference, legitimating Reform's rather populist tone?
    I don’t think the boundless negativity after coming to power on a wave of ‘well, you’re not the Tories’ followed up by a poor budget has helped at all.

    It is good to see a change in tone and emphasis to trying to be more positive
    As least they’re stating to talk the talk, with disonourable exceptions for Ed Miliband and Sadiq Khan.

    What’s going to be interesting to watch is if they can walk the walk, or if they’re happy for the Process State to do its usual thing and hold everything up past the election.

    If they do nothing else, let’s see a major reform of planning law and a streamlining of the process for national infrastructure projects.
    We are about to enter the eighth month of a five year term, and are over 10% of the way through this government. While there is lots of waffle, I have no idea what at this stage they have actually implemented, clearly timetabled and achieved of the sort that makes a difference to our lives.

    Eg:

    Ambulances
    Rail from Liverpool to Hull
    A and E
    GP appointments
    Planning law
    Ties to EU
    Boats/migration
    You really need tough people with a clear ideology or mission, and the zeitgeist with you. Thatcher/Blair. Otherwise nothing much changes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623

    Good morning everyone.

    Can I go wildly o/t and seek some help from the historians, especially the legal ones, on here, please.
    In my genealogical researches I have come across what seem to me a puzzle. I've found someone who, in the 1880's was practising a solicitor; he is recorded as that in the 1881 and 1891 Censuses and crops up elsewhere as practising commercial law in the City. However in 1892 he was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 16 months hard labour, and I can find no reference to a successful appeal. However in the 1901 Census he's again described as a solicitor and in 1911 as 'Secretary to Public Companies'. In 1921 he's a 'retired solicitor'.
    Around the turn of 20th Century would someone have been allowed to return to legal practice after such a conviction?
    Opinions, advice would be gratefully received.

    Not an expert but I suspect that having paid his debt to society he was expected to resume a useful existence. To be unpersoned for life was an idea first invented by George Orwell and enthusiastically endorsed by successive governments ever since.
    I'm inclined to agree in principle; in the profession I know most about, pharmacy, someone who 'sinned' legally would, in my day, quite possibly be struck off the professional register, but quietly allowed to return after what the authorities considered a reasonable time.
    Happened to a college friend of mine.
    Plenty of dodgy solicitors around. Look at that Womble Bond Dickinson partner who is still active despite his actions over Horizon.

    But I think DJL is right, he was probably either not struck off or reinstated.

    Or, of course, he may have been employed privately as a legal adviser to an estate or something (speculating here) and still called himself ‘solicitor’ in consequence despite not practising?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,957
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    If a paradigm has shifted, it’s the fall of the free trade pro business conservative centre right replaced by the nationalist, protectionist “fuck business” populist right.

    Yes, I think that's correct

    Britain has enjoyed or endured spectacular levels of immigration in the last 10-20 years. We are constantly assured this contributes to growth. Yet, as @Sandpit shows, the reality is that GDP per capita has not grown at all even as our population has exploded by many millions, putting pressure on everything - from sewage systems to landscapes, from education to health. Meanwhile our cities crumble and we have very real and unpleasant social problems stemming from the migration

    Now we are told "another 5 million must come in the next ten years". Why? What the fuck? We don't want any more. Polls show that voters - by almost 2 to 1 - would rather have LESS immigration EVEN IF IT COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF GROWTH

    https://x.com/GideonSkinner/status/1884199390463799730/photo/1

    No one buys the "growth" shit any more, and even if they do, they are past caring

    I predict that the party which most convincingly argues that it will curtail immigration in 2028 will do very well, and will likely win. Labour cannot do that, the Tories can't, not any more, so we are left with Reform
    Was talking with a builder yesterday working alone. They can’t hire labourers or apprentices. The work is too hard apparently. Not the first time I heard that story.

    Someone has to do the hard work.
    Yes, robots. And I'm quite serious
    Maybe, but not for a while yet. Until then someone has to wipe bottoms, carry heavy loads and get up early.
This discussion has been closed.