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Scottish independence is off the radar says Sturgeon – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.

    You still don't realise how, or why, or what you "won"
    Utter derangement of a small number of very loud zealots, apparently.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,580
    Swinney doesn't seem focused particularly on independence and on current polls the SNP are projected to lose seats in 2026, so I can't see an indyref2 and independence imminently on the horizon.

    Most likely it would need the SNP holding the balance of power in a hung parliament yes
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,013

    Sandpit said:

    This is a government that you can tell was state educated. What a bunch of troglodytes.

    State school pupils in England may have to drop GCSE Latin after funding pulled

    DfE urged to delay ending funding of popular programme so that hundreds of students can complete their courses


    State school pupils taking GCSE Latin may be forced to drop the subject or even have to teach themselves after the government ends funding for a popular programme that has increased the numbers learning Latin across England.

    School leaders, scholars and authors are urging the Department for Education to offer a reprieve to the Latin excellenceprogramme, to enable hundreds of students to complete their GCSE courses and allow schools time to find additional support.

    The DfE announced shortly before Christmas that it would end funding in February for the programme, which supports Latin lessons for more than 8,000 pupils at 40 non-selective state schools, as part of the government’s cost-cutting drive to stabilise public finances.

    The cuts mean the programme will no longer be able to fund Latin teachers in schools from the end of next month, leaving some without qualified staff.

    Tom Holland, the award-winning author and host of The Rest Is History podcast, said he supported continued funding for the programme, launched in 2021, arguing that Latin should not be abandoned to “posh ghettoes” within private schools.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/jan/12/state-school-pupils-in-england-may-have-to-drop-gsce-latin-after-funding-pulled

    This government are intent on ruining education.
    Why would you ever want to cut programmes in the middle of a school year?

    All that will happen is the Latin teachers will move to private tutoring, so those who can afford it can still do the exams while those who can’t lose out, despite two years of studying towards them.
    Sandpit said:

    This is a government that you can tell was state educated. What a bunch of troglodytes.

    State school pupils in England may have to drop GCSE Latin after funding pulled

    DfE urged to delay ending funding of popular programme so that hundreds of students can complete their courses


    State school pupils taking GCSE Latin may be forced to drop the subject or even have to teach themselves after the government ends funding for a popular programme that has increased the numbers learning Latin across England.

    School leaders, scholars and authors are urging the Department for Education to offer a reprieve to the Latin excellenceprogramme, to enable hundreds of students to complete their GCSE courses and allow schools time to find additional support.

    The DfE announced shortly before Christmas that it would end funding in February for the programme, which supports Latin lessons for more than 8,000 pupils at 40 non-selective state schools, as part of the government’s cost-cutting drive to stabilise public finances.

    The cuts mean the programme will no longer be able to fund Latin teachers in schools from the end of next month, leaving some without qualified staff.

    Tom Holland, the award-winning author and host of The Rest Is History podcast, said he supported continued funding for the programme, launched in 2021, arguing that Latin should not be abandoned to “posh ghettoes” within private schools.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/jan/12/state-school-pupils-in-england-may-have-to-drop-gsce-latin-after-funding-pulled

    This government are intent on ruining education.
    Why would you ever want to cut programmes in the middle of a school year?

    All that will happen is the Latin teachers will move to private tutoring, so those who can afford it can still do the exams while those who can’t lose out, despite two years of studying towards them.
    I read the Blairites are holding their heads in despair at Phillipson.

    She's attacking not only every reform the last government made, but those they did too.
    I don’t understand why some rate Phillipson. There have even been tips on here about her being the next leader. To me she comes across as rather robotic and unlikeable. That of course doesn’t preclude someone from becoming a leader but I don’t see much in the way of presentation or policy to commend her.

    Streeing, Rayner, Darren Jones I “get”. Not so Phillipson.
    I don't know her. She might be perfectly nice so far as she goes.

    I just think she's been totally captured by the progressive educational lobby and its paymasters.

    I fully expect to see England slip down the education rankings by the end of this parliamentary term.
    I can only presume that Starmer knows nothing about education, nor has any interest, so has just given her carte blanche to take the wrecking ball out.

    I don't know why Phillipson is spending so much time on schools when higher education is the one in absolute meltdown.
    The universities are close to crisis. Do anything there’s, and some blame for the crisis might stick to her.

    Much easier to cancel a GCSE for thousands of state school kids.
    I see they’re blaming The Black Hole(TM) for this as well.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,166

    The conundrum is, you and 17m voters like you are still not entirely sure what YOU voted for.

    Barely more than 6 months now until we all get to celebrate Daniel Hannan day!

    https://bsky.app/profile/geoffreyharris.bsky.social/post/3lfh7er2a4k24
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    HYUFD said:

    Swinney doesn't seem focused particularly on independence and on current polls the SNP are projected to lose seats in 2026, so I can't see an indyref2 and independence imminently on the horizon.

    Most likely it would need the SNP holding the balance of power in a hung parliament yes

    Would Badenoch or Jenrick (as potential PM) view breaking the Union forever as value for five years of inch-perfect Conservative Government in England and Wales?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    edited January 13
    Scott_xP said:

    The conundrum is, you and 17m voters like you are still not entirely sure what YOU voted for.

    Barely more than 6 months now until we all get to celebrate Daniel Hannan day!

    https://bsky.app/profile/geoffreyharris.bsky.social/post/3lfh7er2a4k24
    I find it mildly ironic that enthusiastic Brexiteers who condemned Starmer's call for a second advisory Referendum to confirm the first, as undemocratic, are cheerleading Musk's plot to take down the recently elected Government and demanding a new election.

    To quote Jimmy Greaves, "it's a funny old game!"
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,637
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.

    You still don't realise how, or why, or what you "won"
    Utter derangement of a small number of very loud zealots, apparently.
    Given how deranged some of the winners have become, heaven help us all had they lost.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,580

    This is a government that you can tell was state educated. What a bunch of troglodytes.

    State school pupils in England may have to drop GCSE Latin after funding pulled

    DfE urged to delay ending funding of popular programme so that hundreds of students can complete their courses


    State school pupils taking GCSE Latin may be forced to drop the subject or even have to teach themselves after the government ends funding for a popular programme that has increased the numbers learning Latin across England.

    School leaders, scholars and authors are urging the Department for Education to offer a reprieve to the Latin excellenceprogramme, to enable hundreds of students to complete their GCSE courses and allow schools time to find additional support.

    The DfE announced shortly before Christmas that it would end funding in February for the programme, which supports Latin lessons for more than 8,000 pupils at 40 non-selective state schools, as part of the government’s cost-cutting drive to stabilise public finances.

    The cuts mean the programme will no longer be able to fund Latin teachers in schools from the end of next month, leaving some without qualified staff.

    Tom Holland, the award-winning author and host of The Rest Is History podcast, said he supported continued funding for the programme, launched in 2021, arguing that Latin should not be abandoned to “posh ghettoes” within private schools.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/jan/12/state-school-pupils-in-england-may-have-to-drop-gsce-latin-after-funding-pulled

    Say what you like about Boris but at least he understood the value of Latin and the classics, unlike these Labour philistines
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,253
    Newly allowed comments on Facebook/Meta:

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit.”

    “Gays are freaks.”

    “Get these trannies out of my school (beneath photo of high school students).”

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit,”

    “Migrants are no better than vomit”

    “These damn immigrants can’t be trusted, they’re all criminals,”

    “I bet Jorge’s the one who stole my backpack after track practice today. Immigrants are all thieves,”

    “Japanese are all Yakuza.”

    “Jews are flat out greedier than Christians.”

    Meta has faced international scrutiny for its approach to hate speech, most notably after the role that hate speech and other dehumanizing language on Facebook played in fomenting genocide in Myanmar and the displacement of over 650,000 Rohingya Muslims. Following criticism of its mishandling of Myanmar, where the United Nations found Facebook had played a “determining role,” the company spent years touting its investment in preventing the spread of similar rhetoric in the future.

    “The reason many of these lines were drawn where they were is because hate speech often doesn’t stay speech, it turns into real-world conduct,” said Klonick, the content moderation scholar.


    https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/facebook-instagram-meta-hate-speech-content-moderation/
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    edited January 13

    Scott_xP said:

    The conundrum is, you and 17m voters like you are still not entirely sure what YOU voted for.

    Barely more than 6 months now until we all get to celebrate Daniel Hannan day!

    https://bsky.app/profile/geoffreyharris.bsky.social/post/3lfh7er2a4k24
    I find it mildly ironic that enthusiastic Brexiteers who condemned Starmer's call for a second advisory Referendum to confirm the first, as undemocratic, are cheerleading Musk's plot to take down the recently elected Government and demanding a new election.

    To quote Jimmy Greaves, "it's a funny old game!"
    You still don't understand the concept of "implementing a result", do you?

    Or "trolling"? Oh, no, you definitely understand that one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    edited January 13

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    The problem is that cost in space launch is no longer irrelevant. IRIS2 is going to be as capable (maybe) as OneWeb. Because the cost of launching on Ariane 6 makes a mega constellation impossible.

    So Europe will be using Starlink or Kuiper. Because of Israël & Co.

    Firing and demoting people for advocating parallel development of things like Themis is unforgivable.

    Arguing that George Sowers spreadsheet was right (that you need 20+ launches to make reusability make sense) was debunked within hours of it being chucked out there. Many years ago.

    Edit; and because of the higher cost, it is getting hard for Ariane to keep European payloads on A6. Looking at you, Germany…
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    kamski said:

    Newly allowed comments on Facebook/Meta:

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit.”

    “Gays are freaks.”

    “Get these trannies out of my school (beneath photo of high school students).”

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit,”

    “Migrants are no better than vomit”

    “These damn immigrants can’t be trusted, they’re all criminals,”

    “I bet Jorge’s the one who stole my backpack after track practice today. Immigrants are all thieves,”

    “Japanese are all Yakuza.”

    “Jews are flat out greedier than Christians.”

    Meta has faced international scrutiny for its approach to hate speech, most notably after the role that hate speech and other dehumanizing language on Facebook played in fomenting genocide in Myanmar and the displacement of over 650,000 Rohingya Muslims. Following criticism of its mishandling of Myanmar, where the United Nations found Facebook had played a “determining role,” the company spent years touting its investment in preventing the spread of similar rhetoric in the future.

    “The reason many of these lines were drawn where they were is because hate speech often doesn’t stay speech, it turns into real-world conduct,” said Klonick, the content moderation scholar.


    https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/facebook-instagram-meta-hate-speech-content-moderation/

    Free speech, innit.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    edited January 13

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is a government that you can tell was state educated. What a bunch of troglodytes.

    State school pupils in England may have to drop GCSE Latin after funding pulled

    DfE urged to delay ending funding of popular programme so that hundreds of students can complete their courses


    State school pupils taking GCSE Latin may be forced to drop the subject or even have to teach themselves after the government ends funding for a popular programme that has increased the numbers learning Latin across England.

    School leaders, scholars and authors are urging the Department for Education to offer a reprieve to the Latin excellenceprogramme, to enable hundreds of students to complete their GCSE courses and allow schools time to find additional support.

    The DfE announced shortly before Christmas that it would end funding in February for the programme, which supports Latin lessons for more than 8,000 pupils at 40 non-selective state schools, as part of the government’s cost-cutting drive to stabilise public finances.

    The cuts mean the programme will no longer be able to fund Latin teachers in schools from the end of next month, leaving some without qualified staff.

    Tom Holland, the award-winning author and host of The Rest Is History podcast, said he supported continued funding for the programme, launched in 2021, arguing that Latin should not be abandoned to “posh ghettoes” within private schools.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/jan/12/state-school-pupils-in-england-may-have-to-drop-gsce-latin-after-funding-pulled

    This government are intent on ruining education.
    Why would you ever want to cut programmes in the middle of a school year?

    All that will happen is the Latin teachers will move to private tutoring, so those who can afford it can still do the exams while those who can’t lose out, despite two years of studying towards them.
    It's ridiculous.

    Even for a narrow-minded loather of knowledge and learning, slicing in half a course to learn something and get a qualification because "Latin = bad" is just vindictive.
    I'm not a big fan of Latin - probably better to put the resources into modern languages - but courses already started should continue.
    For languages start them two or three years earlier or don't bother. By the time we start too few get beyond basic holiday level. By the time they grow up, instant translation will be commonplace anyway.
    By the time they grow up? It’s here now. If you have advanced voice mode you can just say “be a human translator for the next hour” and it will do it - between multiple languages. In real time. By talking to you. Not by text. Even better you can ask it to translate multiple languages into English within the same conversation - and vice versa. It’s magical
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,365

    For anyone wondering, it's slippery as hell right now. Stuff's melting, but it's ice/compacted snow with a thin layer of water on top so it's easily the worst footing of winter.

    For a week we've had damp roads and lethal pavements.

    And they wonder why there are queues at A&E.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    kamski said:

    Newly allowed comments on Facebook/Meta:

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit.”

    “Gays are freaks.”

    “Get these trannies out of my school (beneath photo of high school students).”

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit,”

    “Migrants are no better than vomit”

    “These damn immigrants can’t be trusted, they’re all criminals,”

    “I bet Jorge’s the one who stole my backpack after track practice today. Immigrants are all thieves,”

    “Japanese are all Yakuza.”

    “Jews are flat out greedier than Christians.”

    Meta has faced international scrutiny for its approach to hate speech, most notably after the role that hate speech and other dehumanizing language on Facebook played in fomenting genocide in Myanmar and the displacement of over 650,000 Rohingya Muslims. Following criticism of its mishandling of Myanmar, where the United Nations found Facebook had played a “determining role,” the company spent years touting its investment in preventing the spread of similar rhetoric in the future.

    “The reason many of these lines were drawn where they were is because hate speech often doesn’t stay speech, it turns into real-world conduct,” said Klonick, the content moderation scholar.


    https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/facebook-instagram-meta-hate-speech-content-moderation/

    Ah, they're VARring moderation.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,253

    kamski said:

    Newly allowed comments on Facebook/Meta:

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit.”

    “Gays are freaks.”

    “Get these trannies out of my school (beneath photo of high school students).”

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit,”

    “Migrants are no better than vomit”

    “These damn immigrants can’t be trusted, they’re all criminals,”

    “I bet Jorge’s the one who stole my backpack after track practice today. Immigrants are all thieves,”

    “Japanese are all Yakuza.”

    “Jews are flat out greedier than Christians.”

    Meta has faced international scrutiny for its approach to hate speech, most notably after the role that hate speech and other dehumanizing language on Facebook played in fomenting genocide in Myanmar and the displacement of over 650,000 Rohingya Muslims. Following criticism of its mishandling of Myanmar, where the United Nations found Facebook had played a “determining role,” the company spent years touting its investment in preventing the spread of similar rhetoric in the future.

    “The reason many of these lines were drawn where they were is because hate speech often doesn’t stay speech, it turns into real-world conduct,” said Klonick, the content moderation scholar.


    https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/facebook-instagram-meta-hate-speech-content-moderation/

    Free speech, innit.
    Sure. Though if those comments were allowed on here I think a lot of us would never visit again.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    kamski said:

    Newly allowed comments on Facebook/Meta:

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit.”

    “Gays are freaks.”

    “Get these trannies out of my school (beneath photo of high school students).”

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit,”

    “Migrants are no better than vomit”

    “These damn immigrants can’t be trusted, they’re all criminals,”

    “I bet Jorge’s the one who stole my backpack after track practice today. Immigrants are all thieves,”

    “Japanese are all Yakuza.”

    “Jews are flat out greedier than Christians.”

    Meta has faced international scrutiny for its approach to hate speech, most notably after the role that hate speech and other dehumanizing language on Facebook played in fomenting genocide in Myanmar and the displacement of over 650,000 Rohingya Muslims. Following criticism of its mishandling of Myanmar, where the United Nations found Facebook had played a “determining role,” the company spent years touting its investment in preventing the spread of similar rhetoric in the future.

    “The reason many of these lines were drawn where they were is because hate speech often doesn’t stay speech, it turns into real-world conduct,” said Klonick, the content moderation scholar.


    https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/facebook-instagram-meta-hate-speech-content-moderation/

    https://www.euronews.com/next/2025/01/10/do-metas-announcements-run-counter-to-the-european-regulation-on-digital-services

    I note Meta’s new rules won’t apply in the EU, where Meta will continue to follow EU rules.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    (Snip)
    It isn't an 'excuse'. It's the blooming reality of *why* Arianespace exists. It's at the very core of their being.

    Now, you can say the world's changed. But what hasn't changed is the US's ability to be sh*ts, as they were in 1970 over Symphonie.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    See the Jeremy Clarkson/May video, made at the time. Partly made out of anger at what they saw as Remain screwing up the campaign.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,253
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    Implying a natural majority for remain, if people hadn't been put off by Cameron? Probably right, who knows.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,505

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Absolutely the case. It’s because the leading proponents of the remain campaign were tentative at best, and often themselves Eurosceptic. Cameron’s “renegotiation” was all about distancing the UK from the heart of the project.

    That and some voter complacency (“send a message to Cameron”) meant a close contest went one way when it might have gone the other.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,038
    Scott_xP said:

    @GMB

    A pizzeria is imposing a £100 'fine' to deter customers from ordering a Hawaiian pizza because they loathe the combination.

    @susannareid100, @edballs, @toryboypierce, @kevin_maguire debate the 'controversial' flavour.

    What do you think?

    https://x.com/GMB/status/1878698882953015588

    R4 Today were covering this topical issue at about 8.55 am this morning. It is of about equal importance with Gaza, and substantially more important than Sudan judging from the time allotted.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,365
    It's a strange sort who is prepared to die in a ditch over Latin teaching.

    Ad munimenta, commilitones!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,505

    kamski said:

    Newly allowed comments on Facebook/Meta:

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit.”

    “Gays are freaks.”

    “Get these trannies out of my school (beneath photo of high school students).”

    “Immigrants are grubby, filthy pieces of shit,”

    “Migrants are no better than vomit”

    “These damn immigrants can’t be trusted, they’re all criminals,”

    “I bet Jorge’s the one who stole my backpack after track practice today. Immigrants are all thieves,”

    “Japanese are all Yakuza.”

    “Jews are flat out greedier than Christians.”

    Meta has faced international scrutiny for its approach to hate speech, most notably after the role that hate speech and other dehumanizing language on Facebook played in fomenting genocide in Myanmar and the displacement of over 650,000 Rohingya Muslims. Following criticism of its mishandling of Myanmar, where the United Nations found Facebook had played a “determining role,” the company spent years touting its investment in preventing the spread of similar rhetoric in the future.

    “The reason many of these lines were drawn where they were is because hate speech often doesn’t stay speech, it turns into real-world conduct,” said Klonick, the content moderation scholar.


    https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/facebook-instagram-meta-hate-speech-content-moderation/

    https://www.euronews.com/next/2025/01/10/do-metas-announcements-run-counter-to-the-european-regulation-on-digital-services

    I note Meta’s new rules won’t apply in the EU, where Meta will continue to follow EU rules.
    What about the UK? Brexit and all that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    The thing is Driver even the most ardent Remainers had a list of substantial criticisms of the EU in their back pockets. We weren't enthusiasts, we just felt the alternative was even worse. The Remain campaign reflected this, which is why it was as you say so ineffective. All we had was what you called "Project Fear", which essentially was "leaving will be worse than staying" which isn't a great sell and some of the hyperbole was absurd.

    The two leave campaigns on the other hand were far more positive and could promise unicorns grazing sunny uplands. When questioned as to who would shovel up the unicorn poo when the nasty zero hours Eastern Europeans went home, Boris Johnson explained that it would be "our friends" from the Indian Subcontinent (which is fine by me) but all of you weren't listening by then.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    kamski said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    Implying a natural majority for remain, if people hadn't been put off by Cameron? Probably right, who knows.
    A natural majority for the status quo, sure. The reason why the zealots fought so hard to overturn the result, because they understood that once status quo bias would be hard to overcome in any future Rejoin referendum.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,065

    For anyone wondering, it's slippery as hell right now. Stuff's melting, but it's ice/compacted snow with a thin layer of water on top so it's easily the worst footing of winter.

    For a week we've had damp roads and lethal pavements.

    And they wonder why there are queues at A&E.
    It's been a little tricky here for the last week but not too bad. Bloody awful this morning. Hoping the melt is rapid. Currently at 4C, the hottest it's been for a week or more.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,038
    Taz said:



    boulay said:

    Fishing said:

    boulay said:

    The problem with the UK at the moment is that politicians are too political. Just heard a bbc report about some Labour economic plans and Labour MPs were complaining to the reporter that the plans were for the long term and so wouldn’t make people feel better in time for the next election.

    So bugger the country, it’s all about the electoral cycle. And all parties are bad on this.

    Maybe we need ten year gaps between elections to allow longer term thinking.

    Being stuck for five years with an utterly useless Parliament like the current one where the overwhelming majority was elected by 20% of the electorate is awful enough.

    Inflicting it on ourselves for a decade would be national suicide.
    Ha, I wasn’t exactly being serious about the ten years - but it is frustrating how all parties are too scared to do things because of the next election which confirms that power is more important than governing.
    The disgraceful decision to kick the care costs issue into the long grass being case in point.
    Government theme this morning is AI, which has a slightly dead cat on table feel. Lots of abstract nouns, lots of long term general uplift, lots of billions to be saved by magic, lots of jobs. Meanwhile social care is kicked out to 2028+ and A and E is on trolleys out into the car park.

    This government is very much the opposite of what vote switchers switched for.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    edited January 13

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
    Or, flip it around, the EU’s inflexibility on Free Movement and the Labour government’s insane decision to throw open the borders to the Accession countries - gave Leave an invaluable boost in the referendum

    But I agree in essence: there were not enough sovereignty/democracy Leavers like me to win the vote alone. Leave needed the “control the border” voters as well

    And then the Tories won Brexit and entirely lost control of the borders
  • Morning, PB.

    Interesting to see Bannon use the term Technofeudalism. Varouoakis
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    (Snip)
    It isn't an 'excuse'. It's the blooming reality of *why* Arianespace exists. It's at the very core of their being.

    Now, you can say the world's changed. But what hasn't changed is the US's ability to be sh*ts, as they were in 1970 over Symphonie.
    It was the reason that Arianespace was started.

    Half a century ago.

    Refusing to see that the world has changed (in aerospace, FFS) and firing and demoting people for arguing that, as a backup, reusability projects should be pushed to completion, is gross incompetence.

    Themis should have flown years ago. But, like X33, too many people saw it as a way of sidelining “dangerous” thinking and work into a dead end development project.

    It’s as stupid as not building battery factories.

    Because now, Europe will not have a strategic capability.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Fuck me Rangoon is a hard city to be in, right now

    Fascinating but hard
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368

    It's a strange sort who is prepared to die in a ditch over Latin teaching.

    Ad munimenta, commilitones!

    The same posters who are outraged that other people's children are incurring a huge debt to read for "Mickey Mouse degrees".
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993

    Labour to invest in a supercomputer.

    Having cancelled one in July.

    You couldn't make this rubbish up.

    Ah but this will be an AI supercomputer, probably made using Nvidia GPUs, unlike the cancelled HPC supercomputer made from Nvidia GPUs. So it's completely different you see.

    Not that one UK supercomputer is going to make much difference to our prospects. xAI's Colossus supercomputer was built in 122 days, less time than it took Labour to reverse their cancellation.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,065

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    (Snip)
    It isn't an 'excuse'. It's the blooming reality of *why* Arianespace exists. It's at the very core of their being.

    Now, you can say the world's changed. But what hasn't changed is the US's ability to be sh*ts, as they were in 1970 over Symphonie.
    It was the reason that Arianespace was started.

    Half a century ago.

    Refusing to see that the world has changed (in aerospace, FFS) and firing and demoting people for arguing that, as a backup, reusability projects should be pushed to completion, is gross incompetence.

    Themis should have flown years ago. But, like X33, too many people saw it as a way of sidelining “dangerous” thinking and work into a dead end development project.

    It’s as stupid as not building battery factories.

    Because now, Europe will not have a strategic capability.
    Funny you should mention batteries. The most recent Good Times Bad Times video was about Europe (read EU) and its weakness versus the USA/China, with NorthVolt cited as an example of strategic failure.
  • ..Varoufakis's book will get another couple of thousand readers, that should be, there.

    He wasn't the first ro think of the team, but he's been, mainly, the one to be heavily expanding it, and deepening it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,330

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.

    You still don't realise how, or why, or what you "won"
    Utter derangement of a small number of very loud zealots, apparently.
    Given how deranged some of the winners have become, heaven help us all had they lost.
    They’d have donned the khaki and picked up a rifle if they didn’t get the Brexit they wanted, so who knows what excesses might have been committed by that losing team. Could have been bloody given so many Brexiteers seem to believe they were at the Normandy landings.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095

    It's a strange sort who is prepared to die in a ditch over Latin teaching.

    Ad munimenta, commilitones!

    Dying in a ditch over the principle that you don't start students on a course of study and then pull the funding mid-year out of spite, on the other hand...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
    Incorrect. The single biggest reason Leave won is by definition the single biggest reason Remain lost.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    edited January 13
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The conundrum is, you and 17m voters like you are still not entirely sure what YOU voted for.

    Barely more than 6 months now until we all get to celebrate Daniel Hannan day!

    https://bsky.app/profile/geoffreyharris.bsky.social/post/3lfh7er2a4k24
    I find it mildly ironic that enthusiastic Brexiteers who condemned Starmer's call for a second advisory Referendum to confirm the first, as undemocratic, are cheerleading Musk's plot to take down the recently elected Government and demanding a new election.

    To quote Jimmy Greaves, "it's a funny old game!"
    You still don't understand the concept of "implementing a result", do you?

    Or "trolling"? Oh, no, you definitely understand that one.
    The EU election was advisory. The July 2024 election wasn't. But the same people who are outraged that anyone questions overturning the advisory vote with another advisory democratic vote are four square behind Musk taking down Starmer.

    Edit: I note the standard response to a questioning of Brexit is trolling. Here's trolling, can you list the benefits of Brexit? To make it a permanent record you can write the list on the back of this postage stamp.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,038
    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Absolutely the case. It’s because the leading proponents of the remain campaign were tentative at best, and often themselves Eurosceptic. Cameron’s “renegotiation” was all about distancing the UK from the heart of the project.

    That and some voter complacency (“send a message to Cameron”) meant a close contest went one way when it might have gone the other.
    The tragedy was and is that neither in nor out is an acceptable position. Out is useless because of trade, influence, SM, customs etc. In is useless because of the ambiguity about being a nation/state (Euro, ECB, parliament, politically appointed ministers, flag, anthem, ever closer union, FoM).

    EFTA/EEA remains the only sane, though far from perfect, option.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    The thing is Driver even the most ardent Remainers had a list of substantial criticisms of the EU in their back pockets. We weren't enthusiasts, we just felt the alternative was even worse. The Remain campaign reflected this, which is why it was as you say so ineffective. All we had was what you called "Project Fear", which essentially was "leaving will be worse than staying" which isn't a great sell and some of the hyperbole was absurd.

    The two leave campaigns on the other hand were far more positive and could promise unicorns grazing sunny uplands. When questioned as to who would shovel up the unicorn poo when the nasty zero hours Eastern Europeans went home, Boris Johnson explained that it would be "our friends" from the Indian Subcontinent (which is fine by me) but all of you weren't listening by then.
    There was, of course, no reason for any Eastern European to go home. Settled status was really easy.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    Leon said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
    Or, flip it around, the EU’s inflexibility on Free Movement and the Labour government’s insane decision to throw open the borders to the Accession countries - gave Leave an invaluable boost in the referendum

    But I agree in essence: there were not enough sovereignty/democracy Leavers like me to win the vote alone. Leave needed the “control the border” voters as well

    And then the Tories won Brexit and entirely lost control of the borders
    Thing is, the "control the border" voters weren't winnable by Remain. Some of the democracy/sovereignty ones were.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The conundrum is, you and 17m voters like you are still not entirely sure what YOU voted for.

    Barely more than 6 months now until we all get to celebrate Daniel Hannan day!

    https://bsky.app/profile/geoffreyharris.bsky.social/post/3lfh7er2a4k24
    I find it mildly ironic that enthusiastic Brexiteers who condemned Starmer's call for a second advisory Referendum to confirm the first, as undemocratic, are cheerleading Musk's plot to take down the recently elected Government and demanding a new election.

    To quote Jimmy Greaves, "it's a funny old game!"
    You still don't understand the concept of "implementing a result", do you?

    Or "trolling"? Oh, no, you definitely understand that one.
    The EU election was advisory.
    Legally, perhaps. Not politically.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,166
    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,538
    edited January 13

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    (Snip)
    It isn't an 'excuse'. It's the blooming reality of *why* Arianespace exists. It's at the very core of their being.

    Now, you can say the world's changed. But what hasn't changed is the US's ability to be sh*ts, as they were in 1970 over Symphonie.
    It was the reason that Arianespace was started.

    Half a century ago.

    Refusing to see that the world has changed (in aerospace, FFS) and firing and demoting people for arguing that, as a backup, reusability projects should be pushed to completion, is gross incompetence.

    Themis should have flown years ago. But, like X33, too many people saw it as a way of sidelining “dangerous” thinking and work into a dead end development project.

    It’s as stupid as not building battery factories.

    Because now, Europe will not have a strategic capability.
    Thank God Europe built Galileo in the face of arguments that it was a waste of money given that we'd always have access to the US GPS system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,580
    Leon said:

    🇬🇱 Greenland Poll On Joining The United States Of America

    🔴 Join America 57% (+20)
    🔵 Don't Join 37%

    @PatriotPolling
    | 1/6-11

    https://x.com/OpenSourceZone/status/1878576691401920571

    NB: Quite q dodgy pollster, but a more reliable Danish pollster also has a majority of Greenlanders wanting to join the USA. At the same time, some polls show Greenlanders wanting to join the EU...

    Whatever the case, it looks like they will vote for full independence from Denmark ASAP

    The Greenlandic PM has said Greenlanders want to be neither Danish or American but independent yes.

    Though with a population of 50,000 ie less than Harlow he might find it difficult to hold off Trump on that

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/1/10/greenland-pm-says-ready-to-talk-to-trump
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Absolutely the case. It’s because the leading proponents of the remain campaign were tentative at best, and often themselves Eurosceptic. Cameron’s “renegotiation” was all about distancing the UK from the heart of the project.

    That and some voter complacency (“send a message to Cameron”) meant a close contest went one way when it might have gone the other.
    The tragedy was and is that neither in nor out is an acceptable position. Out is useless because of trade, influence, SM, customs etc. In is useless because of the ambiguity about being a nation/state (Euro, ECB, parliament, politically appointed ministers, flag, anthem, ever closer union, FoM).

    EFTA/EEA remains the only sane, though far from perfect, option.
    Indeed. And we've missed two chances to reach that option - both before the referendum by not having it on the ballot paper, and after it by the immediate movement by the anti-democrats to try to overturn the result rather than argue for the best possible form of Brexit.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
    Eurozealots cling to this fantasy that they lost because more than half the country is racist.

    I guess it's more palatable than having to blame themselves for being so fucking useless.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    The thing is Driver even the most ardent Remainers had a list of substantial criticisms of the EU in their back pockets. We weren't enthusiasts, we just felt the alternative was even worse. The Remain campaign reflected this, which is why it was as you say so ineffective. All we had was what you called "Project Fear", which essentially was "leaving will be worse than staying" which isn't a great sell and some of the hyperbole was absurd.

    The two leave campaigns on the other hand were far more positive and could promise unicorns grazing sunny uplands. When questioned as to who would shovel up the unicorn poo when the nasty zero hours Eastern Europeans went home, Boris Johnson explained that it would be "our friends" from the Indian Subcontinent (which is fine by me) but all of you weren't listening by then.
    There was, of course, no reason for any Eastern European to go home. Settled status was really easy.
    Try this for size.

    https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/70129/pdf/
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,271
    Leon said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
    Or, flip it around, the EU’s inflexibility on Free Movement and the Labour government’s insane decision to throw open the borders to the Accession countries - gave Leave an invaluable boost in the referendum

    But I agree in essence: there were not enough sovereignty/democracy Leavers like me to win the vote alone. Leave needed the “control the border” voters as well

    And then the Tories won Brexit and entirely lost control of the borders
    I'd also say that freedom of movement combined with Merkel's decision to invite millions of Middle Easterners to Germany - and hence to anywhere in Europe - combined with the Cologne rape parties which took place in the lead-up to the vote - was sub-optimal for Remain's case as it pertained to immigration.

    I'd echo the case that there was definitely a hearts and minds case to be made for Remain which wasn't really attempted beyond "only really dreadful people vote Leave and if you vote Leave we're going to punish you."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
    It would be hard to disagree with Driver that the Remain campaign was incredibly poor. One can counter that with the promises from the Leave campaigns were simple fantasies.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    It'd make the USA the world's second largest country by area too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
    Or, flip it around, the EU’s inflexibility on Free Movement and the Labour government’s insane decision to throw open the borders to the Accession countries - gave Leave an invaluable boost in the referendum

    But I agree in essence: there were not enough sovereignty/democracy Leavers like me to win the vote alone. Leave needed the “control the border” voters as well

    And then the Tories won Brexit and entirely lost control of the borders
    I'd also say that freedom of movement combined with Merkel's decision to invite millions of Middle Easterners to Germany - and hence to anywhere in Europe - combined with the Cologne rape parties which took place in the lead-up to the vote - was sub-optimal for Remain's case as it pertained to immigration.

    I'd echo the case that there was definitely a hearts and minds case to be made for Remain which wasn't really attempted beyond "only really dreadful people vote Leave and if you vote Leave we're going to punish you."
    The positive case should have been “look, what a wonderful homeland we have in Europe. All this is yours. You can work and love and live anywhere you like, from the isles of Greece to the forests of Finland, from Malaga to nice, from Normandy to Sicily, you are a proud European as well as a proud Briton!” - cue stirring music of the British lion on a sun lounger and the queen talking French etc etc

    Ram it home again and again. Should have won
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,605
    I didn’t study Latin at all at school and it hasn’t done me any harm whatsoever. That said it does seem silly to cut something in the middle of a school year.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    1h
    Significant further rises in gilt yields again already this morning, up 5-6 basis points. Awkward.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,166

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
    It would be hard to disagree with Driver that the Remain campaign was incredibly poor. One can counter that with the promises from the Leave campaigns were simple fantasies.
    People don't buy fords cos they don't like Honda's adverts

    The outcome of the vote reflected the desire of voters to "get rid of the forrin" which is what the leave campaign promised them
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    Pulpstar said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    It'd make the USA the world's second largest country by area too.
    Obviously it looks even better if you've got a Mercator map hanging on an office wall.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,179
    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Absolutely the case. It’s because the leading proponents of the remain campaign were tentative at best, and often themselves Eurosceptic. Cameron’s “renegotiation” was all about distancing the UK from the heart of the project.

    That and some voter complacency (“send a message to Cameron”) meant a close contest went one way when it might have gone the other.
    I was just listening to the episodes Political Currency did on Brexit with Michael Gove last year. Gove said that for Leave to win everything had to go right for them, and that sounds right to me. If Remain had run a better campaign; if Labour at the time had had a leader who'd actively campaigned for Remain; if Boris (or Gove) hadn't opted to support Leave; etc etc. The result was so close that there are a lot of things you could point to and say "that's what swung it".

    Per the header, the Scottish indyref had a harder task by not having "status quo" on their side, and although they got a lot of things going their way they didn't get enough -- Osborne reckoned the business about the currency was enough to persuade undecideds to stay put.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    (Snip)
    It isn't an 'excuse'. It's the blooming reality of *why* Arianespace exists. It's at the very core of their being.

    Now, you can say the world's changed. But what hasn't changed is the US's ability to be sh*ts, as they were in 1970 over Symphonie.
    It was the reason that Arianespace was started.

    Half a century ago.

    (Snip)
    Lordy. It is the reason Arianespace exists *today*. It is central to their core and purpose.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    Greenland will be full of casinos by end of Trump's third term will be my bet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707
    4-min video on how carbon capture is stupid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJslrTT-Yhc
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    edited January 13
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
    It would be hard to disagree with Driver that the Remain campaign was incredibly poor. One can counter that with the promises from the Leave campaigns were simple fantasies.
    People don't buy fords cos they don't like Honda's adverts

    The outcome of the vote reflected the desire of voters to "get rid of the forrin" which is what the leave campaign promised them
    I don't deny that, but the Remain campaign was incredibly ineffective if accurate. Perhaps Remain could have offered unicorns too.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,605


    This will get the blood flowing. Anyone interested?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
    It would be hard to disagree with Driver that the Remain campaign was incredibly poor. One can counter that with the promises from the Leave campaigns were simple fantasies.
    That was somewhat intrinsic in the way Cameron designed the referendum - what "Leave" meant was deliberately undefined so as to allow Project Fear to be deployed to maximum effect; and the Leave campaign wasn't going to form a government so had no way to ensure that its vision of Leave would inform the A50 negotiations. This was calculated to make the Leave campaign promises be easy for the Remain campaign to destroy.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Driver said:

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.

    Brexiteers cling to this fantasy that the "swivel eyed loons and closet racists" won because of the actions of people who didn't want Brexit, didn't advocate it, didn't campaign for it and didn't vote for it.

    I guess it's more palatable than the truth
    It would be hard to disagree with Driver that the Remain campaign was incredibly poor. One can counter that with the promises from the Leave campaigns were simple fantasies.
    People don't buy fords cos they don't like Honda's adverts

    Well, I'll give you credit for coming up with a new false analogy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    If you can find the money to buy the Panama Canal fifty million bucks is a drop in the Panama Canal, just cut some social and healthcare funding, and while you're at it let's give the super rich a well deserved tax cut.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,723
    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    You keep deluding yourself like that Scott. That delusion is one of the major reasons why you lost last time. So do keep it up please.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    edited January 13
    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,038

    I didn’t study Latin at all at school and it hasn’t done me any harm whatsoever. That said it does seem silly to cut something in the middle of a school year.

    Res ipsa loquitur.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
    Well I expect they'll vote for independence next April so (At that point) they won't be anyone's territory. The question is does Trump make them an offer at that point.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
    Well I expect they'll vote for independence next April so (At that point) they won't be anyone's territory. The question is does Trump make them an offer at that point.
    Well, yes
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    Nine years later - still haven't figured out why you lost.
    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/other-publication/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ reviews the polling evidence. Hating foreigners was a big part of it.
    (1) No mention of "hatred of foreigners" in that report
    (2) If you're conflating "control of immigration" with "hatred of foreigners"; then
    (a) that says more about you than Leave voters, and
    (b) in any case, that polling is complete bollocksdeeply flawed for several reasons.

    But I'll shut up now, because you're another one of the deranged zealots who have missed that the Remain campaign totally failed to even try to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters who were receptive to it in principle.
    I think the Remain campaign failed to sell a positive vision of the EU to the majority of voters, who were receptive to it in principle.
    Then why even mention "hating foreigners"?

    The single biggest reason Remain lost was that the Remain campaign was shit.
    The single biggest reason Leave won was that the Leave campaign pushed an anti-immigration message.
    Or, flip it around, the EU’s inflexibility on Free Movement and the Labour government’s insane decision to throw open the borders to the Accession countries - gave Leave an invaluable boost in the referendum

    But I agree in essence: there were not enough sovereignty/democracy Leavers like me to win the vote alone. Leave needed the “control the border” voters as well

    And then the Tories won Brexit and entirely lost control of the borders
    I'd also say that freedom of movement combined with Merkel's decision to invite millions of Middle Easterners to Germany - and hence to anywhere in Europe - combined with the Cologne rape parties which took place in the lead-up to the vote - was sub-optimal for Remain's case as it pertained to immigration.

    I'd echo the case that there was definitely a hearts and minds case to be made for Remain which wasn't really attempted beyond "only really dreadful people vote Leave and if you vote Leave we're going to punish you."
    So you reckon it was xenophobia that won it for the Brexiteers?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
    Countries/territories which would, arguably, be in the EU were it not for the Common Fisheries Policy:

    Greenland
    Faroe Islands
    Iceland
    United Kingdom
    Norway

    Hope it was worth it, lads.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    It's a strange sort who is prepared to die in a ditch over Latin teaching.

    Ad munimenta, commilitones!

    The same posters who are outraged that other people's children are incurring a huge debt to read for "Mickey Mouse degrees".
    So you are in favour of withdrawing teaching and effectively cancelling GCSEs that children have been studying for? As they head into the mocks and the final straight?

    Why not end Latin teaching after the exams?
  • Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
    Greenland left the European Community in 1985.
  • Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    You keep deluding yourself like that Scott. That delusion is one of the major reasons why you lost last time. So do keep it up please.
    It's not pleasant for you to accept that many people who share your views are racists but Scott is right.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
    Greenland left the European Community in 1985.
    You should let Macron and his ministry know.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/08/france-warns-trump-against-threatening-eu-sovereign-borders-on-greenland_6736834_4.html

    "There is no question of the EU letting other nations in the world, whoever they may be (...) attack its sovereign borders," Foreign Minister Jean-Noël Barrot told France Inter radio. "We are a strong continent. We need to strengthen ourselves more," he added.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Greenland has valuable resources so purchasing it would generate future tax revenues for the US. It wouldn't be like spaffing $50 Bn on a Whitehall or Washington reorganisation or whatever. I expect the Greenlanders will sell but it'll be for more than $5 Bn, though less than $50 Bn.
    If it happens it will be a grievous blow to Denmark and a pretty nasty blow for the EU. Macron has been banging on about Greenland being “EU territory” and therefore sacrosanct etc

    Losing the UK and then Greenland and soon the EU will start to look wobbly
    Greenland left the European Community in 1985.
    “France warns Trump against threatening EU 'sovereign borders' on Greenland
    'There is no question of the EU letting other nations in the world, whoever they may be (...) attack its sovereign borders,' said Foreign Minister Jean-Noël Barrot.”

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/08/france-warns-trump-against-threatening-eu-sovereign-borders-on-greenland_6736834_4.html
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,330
    In spite of endless exhortations to Remoaners to 'get over it', it seems that any return to the dog vomit of Brexit sets off Brexiteers into a frenzy of not getting over it and excited speculation (yet again) on the future failure of the EU.
    Motes and beams lads.
  • Leon said:

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    ...and a cash settlement of a million bucks to each Greenlander.
    That’s fifty billion. A hard sell to the average American. Also not needed

    $100,000k personally to every Greenlander would do it. Five billion
    Firstly, I very much doubt $100k each would do it. It really isn't very much money.

    But secondly, and more importantly, it isn't Greenlanders (GDP = $3 billion) that would need paying off - it's the state of Denmark (GDP = $400 billion).

    The whole thing is a complete non-runner and standard Trump tactics - ludicrous threats and braggadocio, followed by a fairly trivial concession of some kind which he sells as huge and gamechanging.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    New Glenn launch clock now at T-15’ (but they do keep resetting it).
    Watch at https://www.blueorigin.com/missions/ng-1

    For those wondering, Starship launch is now not before Wednesday.

    Finger crossed.
    A monopoly on launch services isn't a particularly good thing.
    It's interesting how the different rockets have different strengths (*). New Glenn can lift less than SS to LEO, but NG is *much* better currently at getting things to GTO and beyond. SS has a bigger 'fairing', but someone claimed that the difference isn't that great, as SS has lots of structural stuff getting in the way.

    SLS is best at wasting money. ;)

    It's interesting how the planned capabilities of both rockets has decreased over time. SS is nowhere near the planned 100 tonnes to orbit, and NG is well under its target of 45 tonnes (figures from memory; may be wrong).

    (*) As far as we know, given neither is currently operational.
    Meanwhile, Stéphane Israël had one job

    (Snip)
    If things continue the way they are, a non-American and non-Musk route to space for Europe might seem a *very* wise thing...
    Like I said, Stéphane had one job. Making sure Europe had an independent and competitive space launch capability.
    That's my point: "competitive" is not the vital point.

    Arianespace fluked into getting a competitive commercial rocket with the Ariane 4. It wasn't meant to be competitive; but (perhaps thanks to the changing market after the Challenger disaster), it was. That continued with Ariane 5 until SpaceX changed the market again.

    The whole thing started because the US government were ****s and stopped the Franco-German Symphonie satellites from being commercially used, despite (or because of) their being more advanced than any US satellites.

    *That's* what Arianespace is meant to prevent. Cost is very much a secondary factor.
    That’s Stéphane Israël‘s excuse.

    (Snip)
    It isn't an 'excuse'. It's the blooming reality of *why* Arianespace exists. It's at the very core of their being.

    Now, you can say the world's changed. But what hasn't changed is the US's ability to be sh*ts, as they were in 1970 over Symphonie.
    It was the reason that Arianespace was started.

    Half a century ago.

    (Snip)
    Lordy. It is the reason Arianespace exists *today*. It is central to their core and purpose.
    And as a result of Stéphane Israël‘s (and others) obduracy, that ability is not being updated. Which will make it increasingly useless.

    Already, it’s getting hard to get European countries to fly their national payloads of A6. Europe can’t build a mega constellation - unlike the US. China is racing to get the launch capability to enable their own mega constellations.

    Europe is approaching the position of having really awesome turbo-compound aero engines. In the jet age.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095

    In spite of endless exhortations to Remoaners to 'get over it', it seems that any return to the dog vomit of Brexit sets off Brexiteers into a frenzy of not getting over it and excited speculation (yet again) on the future failure of the EU.
    Motes and beams lads.

    Plenty of remainers here getting into a frenzy every time an event happens which they think might cause something which causes something which causes something which makes us Rejoin. Trump getting elected, for example.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,253

    It would be especially humiliating for Putin if Trump could pull off the peaceful annexation of Greenland by sheer force of personality.

    I'm sure you'll be claiming that Trump giving half of Ukraine to Russia is especially humiliating for Putin next week.

    Trump threatening to take Greenland and Panama by force just gives a green light to the likes of Putin for further expansion.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,223

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    You keep deluding yourself like that Scott. That delusion is one of the major reasons why you lost last time. So do keep it up please.
    It's not pleasant for you to accept that many people who share your views are racists but Scott is right.
    No, he's not.

    "10% of the country are racists, they all voted Leave, the margin was 4%, therefore it woz the racists wot won it" is a fallacy - because that group weren't persuadable, they were always going to vote leave.

    If there were only 2.5% of the population who were persuadable but who voted Leave because of the Remain campaign's utter ineptitude, that's a much bigger and actually decisive number.

    Think by analogy to a POTUS election and the talk of which is going to be the tipping point state. On one extreme, you have California and much of New England, and on the other you have much of the South. The election is won and lost in the middle.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,038

    Scott_xP said:

    OGH spent many years arging that the EU didn't matter to voters based on the 'importance polling'. And then suddenly we had Brexit.

    But the Brexit vote wasn't about membership of the EU

    It was about hating "foreigners"
    You keep deluding yourself like that Scott. That delusion is one of the major reasons why you lost last time. So do keep it up please.
    It's not pleasant for you to accept that many people who share your views are racists but Scott is right.
    What is untrue is this: that Brexit voters are on the whole extemists or racists. When 16 million+ UK people vote for something, that conclusion is impossible. There just are not enough extremists and racists to achieve it.

    Maybe some horrible people voted for Brexit. It's quite possible that among Remainers were people who thought that little people in ugly and neglected places didn't really matter much.
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