I can't see any alternative Labour Chancellor doing much different so I expect her to stay. Given the need to cut borrowing that means either further higher taxes or spending cuts and the Labour Party base and unions would revolt unless it was the former
They can revolt as much as they want, but this is the reality and drastic cuts in spending and increase taxes is her only path, otherwise the IMF are waiting in the wings
More taxes are going to throttle economic growth, the reality is she needs to cut spending.
Cutting spending is also bad for growth.
If tax cuts led to growth , why is the National Debt so big?
The Accrington Stanley milk advert crops up more than expected on here. A story in the Telegraph today: one of its actors has gone on to considerable success on telly, stage and in writing (but still gets more kudos for the advert) ... the other is currently in jail for murder, life having gone downhill in his teens. Like some play by Willy Russell: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2025/01/09/accrington-stanley-milk-advert-liverpool-fa-cup-1980s/
Which one went on to great things? The enthusiastic or unenthusiastic milk drinker?
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
It has to be Reform now, you know you want to. The Tories are done, finished, nixed. They cannot be forgiven for the Boriswave, and they can’t be trusted to do anything actually rightwing, most of them are actually Cameroon Lib Dems anyway. Fuck them and let them die
Reform it is. Let’s have a proper right wing government, no more ersatz shit. A government that will destroy Woke and sort immigration and act like it’s just got out of the gym and it’s had three gins and it’s ready to RUCK, and then have a nice Penang curry
You are even older than me, so old enough to remember the SDP. They were going to "break the mould" and replace Labour, and for those who remember Spitting Image they may remember David Steele saying "Oh David I feel the surge, the surge." The surge was a bit premature.
The SDP is still around, though is Reform Light these days and, if it has any sense (which is doubtful given it *has* kept going so long), will fold into it soon enough.
But the Liberal-SDP alliance led polls through late 1981-82, peaking at 50%, so did stand a very real chance of winning outright. Indeed, the tipping point was probably not the Falklands, which propelled the Tories back into the lead, but Healey edging out Benn for Labour's deputy leadership. Had that election gone the other way, it would likely have produced a further tide of defections which may well have cemented the SDP's primacy on the left. But such are the footprints in the shores of history.
Obviously, if Reform did win then they'd flounder hopelessly, screw everything up and blame someone else; that's what radical parties do. but they could win.
Technically, the SDP is not still around. The SDP ceased to exist formally when it merged with the Liberals to form the LibDems. A few former SDP members who disagreed with that move formed a new party with the same name.
That new SDP then formally wound itself up and ceased to exist. Again, a few former members disagreed with that move and formed a third party with the same name. They're who the current SDP are.
Easy spending cut for Labour is £9bn to Mauritius.
But it's virtue spending as a luxury belief for them to show how wonderful they are. So I imagine it'll be sacred.
There have been more consultations/murmurings about Leeds getting a tram system. I expect this to be cancelled. Yet again (not party political, it's happened under them all, repeatedly).
To be fair, trams are just expensive and inflexible buses, that disrupt the city for many years while the streets are dug up to put the rails in. A metro system is the way to go, particularly for the centre - it can run above ground elsewhere.
Getting it built would require changes to processes though. The majority of the cost is in regulation.
Metros are even more expensive.
Trams can run on lower energy, due to reduced coefficient of friction, and be electrified and pull longer/heavier loads; they are also more reliable than buses.
Metros are only more expensive in terms of the costs to build and run. But they move a lot more people (and cause less disruption) so in terms of passenger usage they're better value.
And there's quite a lot in that on terms of being more expensive to build and run. It can be billions on the first and tens of millions on the second. Economics depends on the density of the population to drive revenue and the difficultly of construction to serve it, and hence why you run a business case.
In medium sized cities trams make more sense. Large cities metros. Small places, buses.
Not to go the full Liam Neeson, but I do this for a living.
Indeed. And Leeds is a large enough city.
You could also add smart buses to even smaller places / more rural / less dense / low-demand times. The broad concept of public transport of 'we run where we say, when we say' is out of the stagecoach era. Technology allows a much more user-focused approach now, if providers and regulators can get together to develop and introduce the software.
You don't like trams, and would prefer a metro - I get that - but that does not a business case make. Public transport works well where there is a latent demand for travel along the route - it isn't done in a vacuum - and if you can get below 10 minute gaps in service and operate 18 hours a day (big ifs, of course) you don't need a timetable.
Also, people tend not to like buses for all of reliability, service quality, and privacy/ safety/ social reasons. Uber is far closer to the user-focuses transport you crave these days, but has scattered coverage outside London.
Correct. And one bus every 2-3 hours during the daytime is barely a service at all.
It should be perfectly possible to essentially order a bus in the same way as an Uber to take you from A to B, but potentially via C, D and E, as the bus picks up and drops off passengers via a smartphone app, with the driver given a real-time amended route as people order the service. You could run these both in rural areas and at low-demand times everywhere, linked to a smartcard for both the user's and the operator's security.
Obviously it would need a subsidy but then so do pretty much all services in those places and at that time.
Services such as you describe exist. But they don't, so far, do very well. They have neither the simplicity or an uber nor the, er, simplicity of a bus (which we could also call predictability, or ease of understanding). Users of public transport LOVE simplicity above anything else. Require them to think, and they will shift to the simpler alternative. One of the reasons fixed track does so well is simplicity. Users know where it's going - it follows the rails - they don't worry about where to get off. Introduce any sort of uncertainty into a bus journey at your peril.
I'm not going as far as saying you're wrong - as I say, such services exist, though tend to run at large losses - but they are not what the world is clamouring for, yet. It will take a bit of a shift in mindset, which is hard to do.
I think they're under-developed. They would only really work if combined with an overarching framework - hence the need for a single point of use app, which handles the ordering, real-time info, payment etc.
The world won't clamour for these services - as CR says upthread, metros, trams and scheduled buses all have their time and place - but for places and times when usage is low, it's a niche to be filled. And, of course, the framework app they operate within could (and should) be the same one that does all the other transport in the area so users already have familiarity.
I am a great believer in public transport, and am personally willing to overcome the barriers of complexity. I reckon of all car owners I'm in the top 1 percentile of my willingness to use public transport. I haven't got a taxi for over two years.
However, I abhor living life through apps.
I just had this bullshit on the Avanti train. Scan this app for the menu. It was written out last year.
Easy spending cut for Labour is £9bn to Mauritius.
But it's virtue spending as a luxury belief for them to show how wonderful they are. So I imagine it'll be sacred.
There have been more consultations/murmurings about Leeds getting a tram system. I expect this to be cancelled. Yet again (not party political, it's happened under them all, repeatedly).
To be fair, trams are just expensive and inflexible buses, that disrupt the city for many years while the streets are dug up to put the rails in. A metro system is the way to go, particularly for the centre - it can run above ground elsewhere.
Getting it built would require changes to processes though. The majority of the cost is in regulation.
Metros are even more expensive.
Trams can run on lower energy, due to reduced coefficient of friction, and be electrified and pull longer/heavier loads; they are also more reliable than buses.
Metros are only more expensive in terms of the costs to build and run. But they move a lot more people (and cause less disruption) so in terms of passenger usage they're better value.
And there's quite a lot in that on terms of being more expensive to build and run. It can be billions on the first and tens of millions on the second. Economics depends on the density of the population to drive revenue and the difficultly of construction to serve it, and hence why you run a business case.
In medium sized cities trams make more sense. Large cities metros. Small places, buses.
Not to go the full Liam Neeson, but I do this for a living.
Indeed. And Leeds is a large enough city.
You could also add smart buses to even smaller places / more rural / less dense / low-demand times. The broad concept of public transport of 'we run where we say, when we say' is out of the stagecoach era. Technology allows a much more user-focused approach now, if providers and regulators can get together to develop and introduce the software.
You don't like trams, and would prefer a metro - I get that - but that does not a business case make. Public transport works well where there is a latent demand for travel along the route - it isn't done in a vacuum - and if you can get below 10 minute gaps in service and operate 18 hours a day (big ifs, of course) you don't need a timetable.
Also, people tend not to like buses for all of reliability, service quality, and privacy/ safety/ social reasons. Uber is far closer to the user-focuses transport you crave these days, but has scattered coverage outside London.
Correct. And one bus every 2-3 hours during the daytime is barely a service at all.
It should be perfectly possible to essentially order a bus in the same way as an Uber to take you from A to B, but potentially via C, D and E, as the bus picks up and drops off passengers via a smartphone app, with the driver given a real-time amended route as people order the service. You could run these both in rural areas and at low-demand times everywhere, linked to a smartcard for both the user's and the operator's security.
Obviously it would need a subsidy but then so do pretty much all services in those places and at that time.
Services such as you describe exist. But they don't, so far, do very well. They have neither the simplicity or an uber nor the, er, simplicity of a bus (which we could also call predictability, or ease of understanding). Users of public transport LOVE simplicity above anything else. Require them to think, and they will shift to the simpler alternative. One of the reasons fixed track does so well is simplicity. Users know where it's going - it follows the rails - they don't worry about where to get off. Introduce any sort of uncertainty into a bus journey at your peril.
I'm not going as far as saying you're wrong - as I say, such services exist, though tend to run at large losses - but they are not what the world is clamouring for, yet. It will take a bit of a shift in mindset, which is hard to do.
I think they're under-developed. They would only really work if combined with an overarching framework - hence the need for a single point of use app, which handles the ordering, real-time info, payment etc.
The world won't clamour for these services - as CR says upthread, metros, trams and scheduled buses all have their time and place - but for places and times when usage is low, it's a niche to be filled. And, of course, the framework app they operate within could (and should) be the same one that does all the other transport in the area so users already have familiarity.
I am a great believer in public transport, and am personally willing to overcome the barriers of complexity. I reckon of all car owners I'm in the top 1 percentile of my willingness to use public transport. I haven't got a taxi for over two years.
However, I abhor living life through apps.
I just had this bullshit on the Avanti train. Scan this app for the menu. It was written out last year.
I asked her to just tell me.
Organisations demanding you download their shitty app and share your data so that you can buy their product has got to be one of the most irritating aspects of the digital age. It would be a good thing to legislate on. When I go into a carpark I do not want to waste 5 mins of my life trying to download a shitty app I may not need again. Allow me to pay via contactless FFS!!!
Be grateful it's only 5 mins. Could be a lot longer if someone else has stuck *their* app thingy on top of the parker-robbers' one.
It really does look like the budget is unravelling this week, it took an extra month or two vs Liz Truss but the additional £150bn in borrowing hasn't gone unnoticed by markets. Yes every other country has higher yields, the difference is that the UK has seen yields go up significantly more than any other country as markets reprice our debt to the new reality of much more supply over the short and medium term than had been anticipated alongside much higher inflation and interest rate expectations for the UK which is definitely a problem created by Reeves.
As I said before, we're heading for a pretty nasty sovereign debt crisis and the government will have to pull back on spending commitments to keep bond investors happy. I'd suggest junking the Chagos deal, the CCS money and cutting by 2/3rds the extra money for the NHS just to start and then going in for departmental headcount cuts of 20-30% for non customer facing roles and banning consultancy and agency workers across the state with pay bracket increases for highly technical or skilled roles.
If there is a sovereign debt crisis - and why wouldn't there be - it's unlikely to be just the UK.
It has to be Reform now, you know you want to. The Tories are done, finished, nixed. They cannot be forgiven for the Boriswave, and they can’t be trusted to do anything actually rightwing, most of them are actually Cameroon Lib Dems anyway. Fuck them and let them die
Reform it is. Let’s have a proper right wing government, no more ersatz shit. A government that will destroy Woke and sort immigration and act like it’s just got out of the gym and it’s had three gins and it’s ready to RUCK, and then have a nice Penang curry
You are even older than me, so old enough to remember the SDP. They were going to "break the mould" and replace Labour, and for those who remember Spitting Image they may remember David Steele saying "Oh David I feel the surge, the surge." The surge was a bit premature.
The SDP is still around, though is Reform Light these days and, if it has any sense (which is doubtful given it *has* kept going so long), will fold into it soon enough.
But the Liberal-SDP alliance led polls through late 1981-82, peaking at 50%, so did stand a very real chance of winning outright. Indeed, the tipping point was probably not the Falklands, which propelled the Tories back into the lead, but Healey edging out Benn for Labour's deputy leadership. Had that election gone the other way, it would likely have produced a further tide of defections which may well have cemented the SDP's primacy on the left. But such are the footprints in the shores of history.
Obviously, if Reform did win then they'd flounder hopelessly, screw everything up and blame someone else; that's what radical parties do. but they could win.
Technically, the SDP is not still around. The SDP ceased to exist formally when it merged with the Liberals to form the LibDems. A few former SDP members who disagreed with that move formed a new party with the same name.
That new SDP then formally wound itself up and ceased to exist. Again, a few former members disagreed with that move and formed a third party with the same name. They're who the current SDP are.
Well duh! Th real villains are the lawyers taking the cash for a hopeless case. Bringing the profession into disrepute
@TSE An outrageous slur on the most noble of professions !!!!
Slight tangent, but if people enjoy a cosy crime novel, and are fans of lawyers (WHO ISN'T?) then I can recommend Sarah Caudwell's "Hilary Tarmar" series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Caudwell
It really does look like the budget is unravelling this week, it took an extra month or two vs Liz Truss but the additional £150bn in borrowing hasn't gone unnoticed by markets. Yes every other country has higher yields, the difference is that the UK has seen yields go up significantly more than any other country as markets reprice our debt to the new reality of much more supply over the short and medium term than had been anticipated alongside much higher inflation and interest rate expectations for the UK which is definitely a problem created by Reeves.
As I said before, we're heading for a pretty nasty sovereign debt crisis and the government will have to pull back on spending commitments to keep bond investors happy. I'd suggest junking the Chagos deal, the CCS money and cutting by 2/3rds the extra money for the NHS just to start and then going in for departmental headcount cuts of 20-30% for non customer facing roles and banning consultancy and agency workers across the state with pay bracket increases for highly technical or skilled roles.
If there is a sovereign debt crisis - and why wouldn't there be - it's unlikely to be just the UK.
It isn't.
The main driver for debt difficulties in Europe is the idea that our economies are about to get f***** by an incontinent orange person.
Bloody gorgeous day in Devon, now that the sheet ice has melted. That made the dog walk look like my poor impression of Ski Sunday. The bit where they have lost their skis and are windmilling over the ice towards the inevitable contact with the barriers...
Yaktrax or Microspikes will keep you out of A&E.
In 2010 I had to go to A&E to visit an ice victim and was reduced to walking the streets with full crampons. It might have looked like overkill but I was the only one not skating everywhere.
Thanks. Yaktrax Pro look great.
Although, vagaries of our weather being what they are, they will probably be stuck on e-bay in ten years time. "Unopened box..."
Storage boxful of those and others in the porch here. Mrs C is wearing them to visit her mum.
Carnyx, Sunshine and blue sky in the west up fro early -7 to a comfortable 3.5
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
Bloody gorgeous day in Devon, now that the sheet ice has melted. That made the dog walk look like my poor impression of Ski Sunday. The bit where they have lost their skis and are windmilling over the ice towards the inevitable contact with the barriers...
Yaktrax or Microspikes will keep you out of A&E.
In 2010 I had to go to A&E to visit an ice victim and was reduced to walking the streets with full crampons. It might have looked like overkill but I was the only one not skating everywhere.
Thanks. Yaktrax Pro look great.
Although, vagaries of our weather being what they are, they will probably be stuck on e-bay in ten years time. "Unopened box..."
Storage boxful of those and others in the porch here. Mrs C is wearing them to visit her mum.
Carnyx, Sunshine and blue sky in the west up fro early -7 to a comfortable 3.5
Hello Malky! Much the same here on the east, but still below freezing outside the bright sun.
Bloody gorgeous day in Devon, now that the sheet ice has melted. That made the dog walk look like my poor impression of Ski Sunday. The bit where they have lost their skis and are windmilling over the ice towards the inevitable contact with the barriers...
Yaktrax or Microspikes will keep you out of A&E.
In 2010 I had to go to A&E to visit an ice victim and was reduced to walking the streets with full crampons. It might have looked like overkill but I was the only one not skating everywhere.
Thanks. Yaktrax Pro look great.
Although, vagaries of our weather being what they are, they will probably be stuck on e-bay in ten years time. "Unopened box..."
Storage boxful of those and others in the porch here. Mrs C is wearing them to visit her mum.
Carnyx, Sunshine and blue sky in the west up fro early -7 to a comfortable 3.5
Beautiful blue skies here. Very cold and a heavy frost this morning, but it had all gone by about eleven. No sign of any snow. Though I nearly did embarrass myself at the pool when I got changed, went to the shower and realised I still had my fluorescent yellow running beanie on. I was tempted to swim with it; it'd make a change from the orange ones the good swimmers wear...
I think we’re on the verge of a cage fight between the weak chinned pervert in Romania and the squeaky voiced SAS diddy becoming part of the UK political discourse.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
It has to be Reform now, you know you want to. The Tories are done, finished, nixed. They cannot be forgiven for the Boriswave, and they can’t be trusted to do anything actually rightwing, most of them are actually Cameroon Lib Dems anyway. Fuck them and let them die
Reform it is. Let’s have a proper right wing government, no more ersatz shit. A government that will destroy Woke and sort immigration and act like it’s just got out of the gym and it’s had three gins and it’s ready to RUCK, and then have a nice Penang curry
You are even older than me, so old enough to remember the SDP. They were going to "break the mould" and replace Labour, and for those who remember Spitting Image they may remember David Steele saying "Oh David I feel the surge, the surge." The surge was a bit premature.
The SDP is still around, though is Reform Light these days and, if it has any sense (which is doubtful given it *has* kept going so long), will fold into it soon enough.
But the Liberal-SDP alliance led polls through late 1981-82, peaking at 50%, so did stand a very real chance of winning outright. Indeed, the tipping point was probably not the Falklands, which propelled the Tories back into the lead, but Healey edging out Benn for Labour's deputy leadership. Had that election gone the other way, it would likely have produced a further tide of defections which may well have cemented the SDP's primacy on the left. But such are the footprints in the shores of history.
Obviously, if Reform did win then they'd flounder hopelessly, screw everything up and blame someone else; that's what radical parties do. but they could win.
Technically, the SDP is not still around. The SDP ceased to exist formally when it merged with the Liberals to form the LibDems. A few former SDP members who disagreed with that move formed a new party with the same name.
That new SDP then formally wound itself up and ceased to exist. Again, a few former members disagreed with that move and formed a third party with the same name. They're who the current SDP are.
Spitting hairs. An SDP is still around, and has a direct line back to Limehouse.
In reality, the SDP today has less in common with that of 1992 than the 1992 one did with 1983.
I think we’re on the verge of a cage fight between the weak chinned pervert in Romania and the squeaky voiced SAS diddy becoming part of the UK political discourse.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
Looks like Labour has lost the support of one of the big papers:
Sunday Sport @thesundaysport Just an idea: maybe not pay £9bn to give away an island, not spend £22bn sucking up air and not give £11.6billion to the Third World to change the weather? #GovernmentIsEasy
It really does look like the budget is unravelling this week, it took an extra month or two vs Liz Truss but the additional £150bn in borrowing hasn't gone unnoticed by markets. Yes every other country has higher yields, the difference is that the UK has seen yields go up significantly more than any other country as markets reprice our debt to the new reality of much more supply over the short and medium term than had been anticipated alongside much higher inflation and interest rate expectations for the UK which is definitely a problem created by Reeves.
As I said before, we're heading for a pretty nasty sovereign debt crisis and the government will have to pull back on spending commitments to keep bond investors happy. I'd suggest junking the Chagos deal, the CCS money and cutting by 2/3rds the extra money for the NHS just to start and then going in for departmental headcount cuts of 20-30% for non customer facing roles and banning consultancy and agency workers across the state with pay bracket increases for highly technical or skilled roles.
If there is a sovereign debt crisis - and why wouldn't there be - it's unlikely to be just the UK.
Two options here. Sovereign debt crises either hit multiple countries at once (1997/8 emerging markets, Eurozone crisis) or they focus on one particularly problematic economy (like Argentina).
A multi country crisis would probably be triggered by the US and hit us, France, Italy and a couple of other relatively highly leveraged countries while sparing the likes of Germany, South Korea and probably Canada.
A single country crisis is unlikely to focus on us. Several other governments have significantly worse looking balance sheets, including the US.
As the Liz Truss letter purports that defamation is the reason she lost her seat, it’s clear that her next step should be to sue her former constituents. And sue Sir Graham Brady. And sue the markets. And sue the lenders who jacked up mortgages. And sue pension funds who nearly went bust. And sue Rishi Sunak.
Everyone is wrong. With the exception of her.
Objectively speaking, though, she didn’t “crash the economy”. Although, to be clear, the budget was ill conceived, poorly thought through and badly executed.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
It really does look like the budget is unravelling this week, it took an extra month or two vs Liz Truss but the additional £150bn in borrowing hasn't gone unnoticed by markets. Yes every other country has higher yields, the difference is that the UK has seen yields go up significantly more than any other country as markets reprice our debt to the new reality of much more supply over the short and medium term than had been anticipated alongside much higher inflation and interest rate expectations for the UK which is definitely a problem created by Reeves.
As I said before, we're heading for a pretty nasty sovereign debt crisis and the government will have to pull back on spending commitments to keep bond investors happy. I'd suggest junking the Chagos deal, the CCS money and cutting by 2/3rds the extra money for the NHS just to start and then going in for departmental headcount cuts of 20-30% for non customer facing roles and banning consultancy and agency workers across the state with pay bracket increases for highly technical or skilled roles.
If there is a sovereign debt crisis - and why wouldn't there be - it's unlikely to be just the UK.
Two options here. Sovereign debt crises either hit multiple countries at once (1997/8 emerging markets, Eurozone crisis) or they focus on one particularly problematic economy (like Argentina).
A multi country crisis would probably be triggered by the US and hit us, France, Italy and a couple of other relatively highly leveraged countries while sparing the likes of Germany, South Korea and probably Canada.
A single country crisis is unlikely to focus on us. Several other governments have significantly worse looking balance sheets, including the US.
The US also has another round of its perennial debt ceiling pressures upcoming in the next few months.
Well duh! Th real villains are the lawyers taking the cash for a hopeless case. Bringing the profession into disrepute
@TSE An outrageous slur on the most noble of professions !!!!
As the lawyer pointed out, this is a SLAPP action. At various points people threaten to sue for Defamation. There are very clear defences against action. When the defence is clear, obvious and unambiguous, there is a difference between some muppet saying "I'm going to sue" and a lawyer actually starting or even threatening proceedings.
Any lawyer worth their salt should be advising Mrs T that she hasn't got a leg to stand on. You can sue for defamation but you will almost certainly lose because of this clear obvious and unambiguous line of defence.
Set the lawyer aside for a minute. I assume she has advisors? Is using her £160k a year PM's allowance for staffers to tell her what to do? She needs to hire better ones - if her team have said "sue him, great idea, bound to win" then they are useless to her.
It has to be Reform now, you know you want to. The Tories are done, finished, nixed. They cannot be forgiven for the Boriswave, and they can’t be trusted to do anything actually rightwing, most of them are actually Cameroon Lib Dems anyway. Fuck them and let them die
Reform it is. Let’s have a proper right wing government, no more ersatz shit. A government that will destroy Woke and sort immigration and act like it’s just got out of the gym and it’s had three gins and it’s ready to RUCK, and then have a nice Penang curry
You are even older than me, so old enough to remember the SDP. They were going to "break the mould" and replace Labour, and for those who remember Spitting Image they may remember David Steele saying "Oh David I feel the surge, the surge." The surge was a bit premature.
The SDP is still around, though is Reform Light these days and, if it has any sense (which is doubtful given it *has* kept going so long), will fold into it soon enough.
But the Liberal-SDP alliance led polls through late 1981-82, peaking at 50%, so did stand a very real chance of winning outright. Indeed, the tipping point was probably not the Falklands, which propelled the Tories back into the lead, but Healey edging out Benn for Labour's deputy leadership. Had that election gone the other way, it would likely have produced a further tide of defections which may well have cemented the SDP's primacy on the left. But such are the footprints in the shores of history.
Obviously, if Reform did win then they'd flounder hopelessly, screw everything up and blame someone else; that's what radical parties do. but they could win.
Technically, the SDP is not still around. The SDP ceased to exist formally when it merged with the Liberals to form the LibDems. A few former SDP members who disagreed with that move formed a new party with the same name.
That new SDP then formally wound itself up and ceased to exist. Again, a few former members disagreed with that move and formed a third party with the same name. They're who the current SDP are.
Spitting hairs. An SDP is still around, and has a direct line back to Limehouse.
In reality, the SDP today has less in common with that of 1992 than the 1992 one did with 1983.
Who's the most famous member of the original SDP to ever be a member of the current party of the same name? The answer to that question tells you how much actual link there is back to Limehouse.
The current SDP was set up by a small minority of the 1988-90 party, which was set up by a small minority of the original party.
Easy spending cut for Labour is £9bn to Mauritius.
But it's virtue spending as a luxury belief for them to show how wonderful they are. So I imagine it'll be sacred.
There have been more consultations/murmurings about Leeds getting a tram system. I expect this to be cancelled. Yet again (not party political, it's happened under them all, repeatedly).
To be fair, trams are just expensive and inflexible buses, that disrupt the city for many years while the streets are dug up to put the rails in. A metro system is the way to go, particularly for the centre - it can run above ground elsewhere.
Getting it built would require changes to processes though. The majority of the cost is in regulation.
Metros are even more expensive.
Trams can run on lower energy, due to reduced coefficient of friction, and be electrified and pull longer/heavier loads; they are also more reliable than buses.
Metros are only more expensive in terms of the costs to build and run. But they move a lot more people (and cause less disruption) so in terms of passenger usage they're better value.
... I do this for a living.
Posting on PB?
Travelling today so I'm bored and you've got me to look forward to.
Don't post and drive!
Trains.
Don't post and drive trains!
Ah, you've just explained everything. So as an ASLEF train driver you can see from where Casino acquired his vast wealth.
Long standing ones like Opinium, Survation, Delta (who don't appear to have changed anything following GE), giving Labour healthy leads.
'Newer' kids on the block like, FON, MIC, Techne etc giving Con or Reform lead or very small Lab lead.
Others like Yougov, Ipsos, R&W etc giving it all a wide berth while they try and work out what went wrong.
Or you can look at Local Election results - big Labour loses, large Con gain, small Reform gains, LD & Green not doing a lot.
Take your pick.
Q4 local by-elections summary
Lab -24 Con +21 Ref +8 LD +3 Grn +2
All about the baseline- a lot of those will be coming off the locals in 2022/3/4 when Labour were riding high.
In terms of vote share, Labour are down about ten points since those seats were last fought, Conservatives flat (though I suspect there's a fair bit of churn there) Ref up about 9, LD up about 3.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
I think that's what I've always been - even before I was a dad...
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
I think that's what I've always been - even before I was a dad...
Centrist? If you think migrants are being selfish, maybe you're far-right...
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Seriously doubt wages in Turkey are higher than UK and with inflation still at 50% even more unlikely.
I think we’re on the verge of a cage fight between the weak chinned pervert in Romania and the squeaky voiced SAS diddy becoming part of the UK political discourse.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
Centrist Dad isn't a Centrist Dad.
Centrist Dad means someone who's firmly on the centre-left who wants their politics to be seen as entirely middle of the road.
Financial services optimism falls as Autumn Budget measures loom over investment plans 09 January 2025
Optimism in the FS sector fell at the quickest pace since September 2022, according to the latest CBI Financial Services Survey. That is despite business volumes growing at a faster pace in the quarter to December.
As the Liz Truss letter purports that defamation is the reason she lost her seat, it’s clear that her next step should be to sue her former constituents. And sue Sir Graham Brady. And sue the markets. And sue the lenders who jacked up mortgages. And sue pension funds who nearly went bust. And sue Rishi Sunak.
Everyone is wrong. With the exception of her.
Objectively speaking, though, she didn’t “crash the economy”. Although, to be clear, the budget was ill conceived, poorly thought through and badly executed.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
It created a sharp unnecessary shock. So she crashed the country.
Reeves may well also crash the nation but the effect is a slow frame by frame event which is more easily catchable.
10/3 on Starmer sacking Reeves this year? I've seen worse bets but it's been a while.
Depends how much Mr. Market wants to stake...
I'm not convinced 100/30 against is a bad bet but because Ladbrokes will not lay my bets, I've not given it much thought, but the bet is whether Reeves will be replaced, not necessarily sacked.
As the Liz Truss letter purports that defamation is the reason she lost her seat, it’s clear that her next step should be to sue her former constituents. And sue Sir Graham Brady. And sue the markets. And sue the lenders who jacked up mortgages. And sue pension funds who nearly went bust. And sue Rishi Sunak.
Everyone is wrong. With the exception of her.
Objectively speaking, though, she didn’t “crash the economy”. Although, to be clear, the budget was ill conceived, poorly thought through and badly executed.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
Truth defence - that the claim is factual. We all lived through her budget. We can show direct actions from the market in response, and then the response from the Bank of England in response to the market, and then the response first of the Conservative Party and then the PM. To claim that objectively these events didn't take place is a smashing piece of revisionism
Honest opinion defence - was the claim a statement of opinion that was held by the defendant and could be held by an honest person? See the truth defence. We all lived through this.
Public interest defence - political debate is public interest, and the disputed claim formed a very real part of both the Conservative Party's own narrative in removing Kwarteng and then Truss and openly stating that the complete u-turn was to stabilise the economy, and in the general election campaign fought by all parties where the crashed economy was accepted by all as fact.
If she didn't crash the economy, why did the economy happen to crash in the immediate aftermath of the mini budget? If she didn't crash the economy, why did she fire the Chancellor and hire someone to reverse all the economy crashing measures whilst making statements to calm the crashed markets?
Bloody gorgeous day in Devon, now that the sheet ice has melted. That made the dog walk look like my poor impression of Ski Sunday. The bit where they have lost their skis and are windmilling over the ice towards the inevitable contact with the barriers...
Yaktrax or Microspikes will keep you out of A&E.
In 2010 I had to go to A&E to visit an ice victim and was reduced to walking the streets with full crampons. It might have looked like overkill but I was the only one not skating everywhere.
Thanks. Yaktrax Pro look great.
Although, vagaries of our weather being what they are, they will probably be stuck on e-bay in ten years time. "Unopened box..."
Storage boxful of those and others in the porch here. Mrs C is wearing them to visit her mum.
Carnyx, Sunshine and blue sky in the west up fro early -7 to a comfortable 3.5
Beautiful blue skies here. Very cold and a heavy frost this morning, but it had all gone by about eleven. No sign of any snow. Though I nearly did embarrass myself at the pool when I got changed, went to the shower and realised I still had my fluorescent yellow running beanie on. I was tempted to swim with it; it'd make a change from the orange ones the good swimmers wear...
We have had one snow flurry for a very short spell once this year. Only snow I see is on Arran.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
It really does look like the budget is unravelling this week, it took an extra month or two vs Liz Truss but the additional £150bn in borrowing hasn't gone unnoticed by markets. Yes every other country has higher yields, the difference is that the UK has seen yields go up significantly more than any other country as markets reprice our debt to the new reality of much more supply over the short and medium term than had been anticipated alongside much higher inflation and interest rate expectations for the UK which is definitely a problem created by Reeves.
As I said before, we're heading for a pretty nasty sovereign debt crisis and the government will have to pull back on spending commitments to keep bond investors happy. I'd suggest junking the Chagos deal, the CCS money and cutting by 2/3rds the extra money for the NHS just to start and then going in for departmental headcount cuts of 20-30% for non customer facing roles and banning consultancy and agency workers across the state with pay bracket increases for highly technical or skilled roles.
If there is a sovereign debt crisis - and why wouldn't there be - it's unlikely to be just the UK.
Two options here. Sovereign debt crises either hit multiple countries at once (1997/8 emerging markets, Eurozone crisis) or they focus on one particularly problematic economy (like Argentina).
A multi country crisis would probably be triggered by the US and hit us, France, Italy and a couple of other relatively highly leveraged countries while sparing the likes of Germany, South Korea and probably Canada.
A single country crisis is unlikely to focus on us. Several other governments have significantly worse looking balance sheets, including the US.
Option one must be a strong possibility. A protectionist downturn in international trade and a ballooning US deficit, oh dear, talk about a challenging macro environment.
Bloody gorgeous day in Devon, now that the sheet ice has melted. That made the dog walk look like my poor impression of Ski Sunday. The bit where they have lost their skis and are windmilling over the ice towards the inevitable contact with the barriers...
Yaktrax or Microspikes will keep you out of A&E.
In 2010 I had to go to A&E to visit an ice victim and was reduced to walking the streets with full crampons. It might have looked like overkill but I was the only one not skating everywhere.
Thanks. Yaktrax Pro look great.
Although, vagaries of our weather being what they are, they will probably be stuck on e-bay in ten years time. "Unopened box..."
Storage boxful of those and others in the porch here. Mrs C is wearing them to visit her mum.
Carnyx, Sunshine and blue sky in the west up fro early -7 to a comfortable 3.5
Beautiful blue skies here. Very cold and a heavy frost this morning, but it had all gone by about eleven. No sign of any snow. Though I nearly did embarrass myself at the pool when I got changed, went to the shower and realised I still had my fluorescent yellow running beanie on. I was tempted to swim with it; it'd make a change from the orange ones the good swimmers wear...
We have had one snow flurry for a very short spell once this year. Only snow I see is on Arran.
I've always liked you Malc, but now I know you can see Arran I fucking hate you. You lucky bl**dy git!
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Labour also spent fourteen years deriding austerity as a deliberate choice when it is was a fiscal reality/necessity and now they are delivering austerity means their credibility is taking a hit.
I disagree: The bond markets were screaming at western governments, including the UK, to borrow & invest as much as they liked during Osbourne’s tenure. Interest rates were at 0%! No one in the private sector wanted to borrow money!
/Now/ bond markets are telling the UK that it’s austerity or take the consequences.
It’s deeply ironic that we got a Conservative government that flatly refused to invest at the cheapest time for a government to invest in the UK ever & now we have a Labour government that would love to spend just as the economic winds have shifted & it’s now next to impossible to borrow the sums required. It’s a shitshow all round frankly. I guess we get the governments we deserve - good and hard.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
Just down to pure jealously wrapped up in whataboutery. Fine having a safety net but given that many get many times the amount for nothing that people who work get means the system is f**ked.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
We can run out of people willing to sell us the food and fuel we require in exchange for now useless pounds.
I went to Maui last year and we drove past Lahaina, which had a horrific fire in 2023. There were some signs of rebuilding but you could still see empty plots with nothing but porches left.
The scale of the LA fires is much greater than that and they aren't anywhere near being under control. They say only 5 people have died but I suspect that will go up massively, especially if people try to stay and defend. At least there is a better road network in LA than Maui
The ten lane 405 also runs through the middle of LA, providing a decent firebreak. Probably saved Bel Air.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
Centrist Dad isn't a Centrist Dad.
Centrist Dad means someone who's firmly on the centre-left who wants their politics to be seen as entirely middle of the road.
I've always thought it was just a vague insult with no real set morning. People seem to use it in different ways.
But I am a dad, and I do think I'm generally in the centre of politics, so I am probably a 'centrist dad'...
Well duh! Th real villains are the lawyers taking the cash for a hopeless case. Bringing the profession into disrepute
@TSE An outrageous slur on the most noble of professions !!!!
As the lawyer pointed out, this is a SLAPP action. At various points people threaten to sue for Defamation. There are very clear defences against action. When the defence is clear, obvious and unambiguous, there is a difference between some muppet saying "I'm going to sue" and a lawyer actually starting or even threatening proceedings.
Any lawyer worth their salt should be advising Mrs T that she hasn't got a leg to stand on. You can sue for defamation but you will almost certainly lose because of this clear obvious and unambiguous line of defence.
Set the lawyer aside for a minute. I assume she has advisors? Is using her £160k a year PM's allowance for staffers to tell her what to do? She needs to hire better ones - if her team have said "sue him, great idea, bound to win" then they are useless to her.
Except the taxpayers and/or SKS lose money by lawyering up to even use the SLAPP defence.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
One of the reasons government debt is cheaper than corporate debt (most of the time) is that government debt doesn’t suffer from cliff edge liquidity risks. Ironically, the ability to print in order to pay interest reduces the rates you have to pay!
That doesn’t mean that you /should/ print but having the ability to do so insulates bond buyers from the risk that you run out of money during times of fiscal stress.
As the Liz Truss letter purports that defamation is the reason she lost her seat, it’s clear that her next step should be to sue her former constituents. And sue Sir Graham Brady. And sue the markets. And sue the lenders who jacked up mortgages. And sue pension funds who nearly went bust. And sue Rishi Sunak.
Everyone is wrong. With the exception of her.
Objectively speaking, though, she didn’t “crash the economy”. Although, to be clear, the budget was ill conceived, poorly thought through and badly executed.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
Truth defence - that the claim is factual. We all lived through her budget. We can show direct actions from the market in response, and then the response from the Bank of England in response to the market, and then the response first of the Conservative Party and then the PM. To claim that objectively these events didn't take place is a smashing piece of revisionism
Honest opinion defence - was the claim a statement of opinion that was held by the defendant and could be held by an honest person? See the truth defence. We all lived through this.
Public interest defence - political debate is public interest, and the disputed claim formed a very real part of both the Conservative Party's own narrative in removing Kwarteng and then Truss and openly stating that the complete u-turn was to stabilise the economy, and in the general election campaign fought by all parties where the crashed economy was accepted by all as fact.
If she didn't crash the economy, why did the economy happen to crash in the immediate aftermath of the mini budget? If she didn't crash the economy, why did she fire the Chancellor and hire someone to reverse all the economy crashing measures whilst making statements to calm the crashed markets?
Didn't someone recently pass on the suggestion that our former PM is still at the denial stage of her failure as PM? Which is clearly terrible for an active politician (thank goodness SW Norfolk went the way it did), but sort of understandable at a human level. I mean, it's bad enough when I stuff up in front of thirty teenagers, but in front of a whole country...
As with Musk, someone really needs to forcibly suggest that she goes and spends as long as it takes in a remote monastery or similar, with no access to any media at all.
It has to be Reform now, you know you want to. The Tories are done, finished, nixed. They cannot be forgiven for the Boriswave, and they can’t be trusted to do anything actually rightwing, most of them are actually Cameroon Lib Dems anyway. Fuck them and let them die
Reform it is. Let’s have a proper right wing government, no more ersatz shit. A government that will destroy Woke and sort immigration and act like it’s just got out of the gym and it’s had three gins and it’s ready to RUCK, and then have a nice Penang curry
You are even older than me, so old enough to remember the SDP. They were going to "break the mould" and replace Labour, and for those who remember Spitting Image they may remember David Steele saying "Oh David I feel the surge, the surge." The surge was a bit premature.
The SDP is still around, though is Reform Light these days and, if it has any sense (which is doubtful given it *has* kept going so long), will fold into it soon enough.
But the Liberal-SDP alliance led polls through late 1981-82, peaking at 50%, so did stand a very real chance of winning outright. Indeed, the tipping point was probably not the Falklands, which propelled the Tories back into the lead, but Healey edging out Benn for Labour's deputy leadership. Had that election gone the other way, it would likely have produced a further tide of defections which may well have cemented the SDP's primacy on the left. But such are the footprints in the shores of history.
Obviously, if Reform did win then they'd flounder hopelessly, screw everything up and blame someone else; that's what radical parties do. but they could win.
Technically, the SDP is not still around. The SDP ceased to exist formally when it merged with the Liberals to form the LibDems. A few former SDP members who disagreed with that move formed a new party with the same name.
That new SDP then formally wound itself up and ceased to exist. Again, a few former members disagreed with that move and formed a third party with the same name. They're who the current SDP are.
Spitting hairs. An SDP is still around, and has a direct line back to Limehouse.
In reality, the SDP today has less in common with that of 1992 than the 1992 one did with 1983.
Better than having a hairball in the stomach, mind.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
Centrist Dad isn't a Centrist Dad.
Centrist Dad means someone who's firmly on the centre-left who wants their politics to be seen as entirely middle of the road.
I've always thought it was just a vague insult with no real set morning. People seem to use it in different ways.
But I am a dad, and I do think I'm generally in the centre of politics, so I am probably a 'centrist dad'...
Economically, your arguments demonstrate you to be on the centre-left.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Well they favoured handing out Billions to entitled WASPI boomers without an idea where it would come from.
This was the statement from the Chief Whip last March. Magic Money Tree stuff. You;d also believe these entitled boomers were modern day Joan's of Arc from the first paragraph of this drivel.
“These courageous women, who have tirelessly campaigned for justice after being left out of pocket, deserve our admiration for their persistence.
“Liberal Democrats have long supported WASPI in their campaign and it is now up to this Conservative Government to come forward with a plan to get these women the compensation they are owed.”
As the Liz Truss letter purports that defamation is the reason she lost her seat, it’s clear that her next step should be to sue her former constituents. And sue Sir Graham Brady. And sue the markets. And sue the lenders who jacked up mortgages. And sue pension funds who nearly went bust. And sue Rishi Sunak.
Everyone is wrong. With the exception of her.
Objectively speaking, though, she didn’t “crash the economy”. Although, to be clear, the budget was ill conceived, poorly thought through and badly executed.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
Truth defence - that the claim is factual. We all lived through her budget. We can show direct actions from the market in response, and then the response from the Bank of England in response to the market, and then the response first of the Conservative Party and then the PM. To claim that objectively these events didn't take place is a smashing piece of revisionism
Honest opinion defence - was the claim a statement of opinion that was held by the defendant and could be held by an honest person? See the truth defence. We all lived through this.
Public interest defence - political debate is public interest, and the disputed claim formed a very real part of both the Conservative Party's own narrative in removing Kwarteng and then Truss and openly stating that the complete u-turn was to stabilise the economy, and in the general election campaign fought by all parties where the crashed economy was accepted by all as fact.
If she didn't crash the economy, why did the economy happen to crash in the immediate aftermath of the mini budget? If she didn't crash the economy, why did she fire the Chancellor and hire someone to reverse all the economy crashing measures whilst making statements to calm the crashed markets?
I thought that, under the thing-that-cannot-be-named, truth is no longer a defence.
Llywydd. But the Llywydd has to be selected - and (with certain exceptions) non-voting, although the need also for a Dirprwy Lywydd does make it easier to choose Members for those roles (one from each side ans all that).
I went to Maui last year and we drove past Lahaina, which had a horrific fire in 2023. There were some signs of rebuilding but you could still see empty plots with nothing but porches left.
The scale of the LA fires is much greater than that and they aren't anywhere near being under control. They say only 5 people have died but I suspect that will go up massively, especially if people try to stay and defend. At least there is a better road network in LA than Maui
The ten lane 405 also runs through the middle of LA, providing a decent firebreak. Probably saved Bel Air.
They're having to bulldoze abandoned cars out of the way just so they can get to the fires to fight them.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Seriously doubt wages in Turkey are higher than UK and with inflation still at 50% even more unlikely.
It depends which bit of the economy you are in. It is a rare country that doesn't have a bit with London property prices and shops selling 4 figure priced bath taps.
In the poorer countries those bits, are just smaller. Even Peru has some bits like that.
In answer to the question posed in the header, I think it highly unlikely Starmer will sack Reeves.
The proximate reason for high bond yield prices now is the same as for Liz Truss: the market doesn't believe future tax revenues will cover future expenditure requirements.
There's a huge political difference between the two however. In Truss case she didn't see why revenues need to cover expenditure. In Reeves case it's because the market believes it will be politically difficult to either increase taxes or reduce expenditure to balance the books, and both will negatively affect growth. Replacing Reeves doesn't remove that dilemma.
I think we’re on the verge of a cage fight between the weak chinned pervert in Romania and the squeaky voiced SAS diddy becoming part of the UK political discourse.
A post typical of the modern-day Twitter underneath that, there.
"Why the hell hasn't the British military taken charge of the UK, yet?"
I'd like that Overton window back in place. It's moving fast and in the wrong direction.
Looking carefully, I can see that the poster is actually a Maga from Miami.
Musk's daily posts seem.to have convinced many thousands of them that Britain has collapsed, and needs a military takeover.
There are SO dumb, these MAGAs, aren't they? And now not one but two malevolent megalomaniacs have got them in their clutches. But they're proper people too, same as me and you. They have a vote and it happens to be in the country which when it sneezes we all get a fever and have to go to bed for a fortnight. I don't know what the answer is. Wait it out, I suppose.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
I am in a position of being very asset wealthy and sometimes cash inconsistent. So f****** me over financially whilst I am still breathing would be counter intuitive. But when I die why shouldn't my wealth be distributed to more deserving causes. The fact that asset wealth is owned by a single figure percentage is outrageous.
I am all for a mixed economy with everyone doing OK and paying fair taxes in civic society. This is is why I am a big fan of meritocratic and fair education, a temporary safety net for those who fall between the cracks, and a permanent safety net for those with severe medical conditions.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Whose government vastly inflated the national debt with nothing concrete to show for it?
It was yours wasn't it?
And even then, our vast debts are minimal on the scale of previous debts held by this country or debts vs GDP of other countries. We're not about to go bust no matter how many times Tories accuse Labour of making it imminent. Our borrowing costs remain very low by global standards.
Besides, a third of our debt is owed to the Bank of England. Which we own. We're paying a lot of interest payments to ourselves. Its paper dollars. The proper debate should be how we are so wasteful with what we spend and how we spend it. What is the point in simultaneously tipping record amounts of cash into an NHS which is starved of cash at the point of delivery? We're spending money on all the wrong things.
In answer to the question posed in the header, I think it highly unlikely Starmer will sack Reeves.
The proximate reason for high bond yield prices now is the same as for Liz Truss: the market doesn't believe future tax revenues will cover future expenditure requirements.
There's a huge political difference between the two however. In Truss case she didn't see why revenues needed to cover expenditure. In Reeves case it's because the market believes it will be politically difficult to either increase taxes or reduce expenditure soon as to balance the books, and both will affect growth. Replacing Reeves doesn't remove that dilemma.
The other thing is that sacking the Chancellor is a Big Move. And there is no apparent disagreement between No.10 and 11 on the way ahead - I've not seen any leaks....
So the replacement chancellor is going to do what differently?
As the Liz Truss letter purports that defamation is the reason she lost her seat, it’s clear that her next step should be to sue her former constituents. And sue Sir Graham Brady. And sue the markets. And sue the lenders who jacked up mortgages. And sue pension funds who nearly went bust. And sue Rishi Sunak.
Everyone is wrong. With the exception of her.
Objectively speaking, though, she didn’t “crash the economy”. Although, to be clear, the budget was ill conceived, poorly thought through and badly executed.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
Truth defence - that the claim is factual. We all lived through her budget. We can show direct actions from the market in response, and then the response from the Bank of England in response to the market, and then the response first of the Conservative Party and then the PM. To claim that objectively these events didn't take place is a smashing piece of revisionism
Honest opinion defence - was the claim a statement of opinion that was held by the defendant and could be held by an honest person? See the truth defence. We all lived through this.
Public interest defence - political debate is public interest, and the disputed claim formed a very real part of both the Conservative Party's own narrative in removing Kwarteng and then Truss and openly stating that the complete u-turn was to stabilise the economy, and in the general election campaign fought by all parties where the crashed economy was accepted by all as fact.
If she didn't crash the economy, why did the economy happen to crash in the immediate aftermath of the mini budget? If she didn't crash the economy, why did she fire the Chancellor and hire someone to reverse all the economy crashing measures whilst making statements to calm the crashed markets?
I thought that, under the thing-that-cannot-be-named, truth is no longer a defence.
You can breach a thing-that-can't-be-named order. But if it can't be named then you aren't going to be done for defamation, so the defence against it is irrelevant.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
Centrist Dad isn't a Centrist Dad.
Centrist Dad means someone who's firmly on the centre-left who wants their politics to be seen as entirely middle of the road.
I've always thought it was just a vague insult with no real set morning. People seem to use it in different ways.
But I am a dad, and I do think I'm generally in the centre of politics, so I am probably a 'centrist dad'...
Economically, your arguments demonstrate you to be on the centre-left.
If so, then only because the discourse has shifted. I believe I've generally been centre-right economically, and centre-left socially. Though that varies: look at my support for your position on the ill-considered and ill-meant VAT on school fees.
I'd *love* there to be lower taxes for everyone. But the country is nowhere near a state to allow that, and in fact, quite the opposite. People want more spending - e.g. on defence - but are not willing to spend more on it.
In answer to the question posed in the header, I think it highly unlikely Starmer will sack Reeves.
The proximate reason for high bond yield prices now is the same as for Liz Truss: the market doesn't believe future tax revenues will cover future expenditure requirements.
There's a huge political difference between the two however. In Truss case she didn't see why revenues needed to cover expenditure. In Reeves case it's because the market believes it will be politically difficult to either increase taxes or reduce expenditure soon as to balance the books, and both will affect growth. Replacing Reeves doesn't remove that dilemma.
The other thing is that sacking the Chancellor is a Big Move. And there is no apparent disagreement between No.10 and 11 on the way ahead - I've not seen any leaks....
So the replacement chancellor is going to do what differently?
Money needs to go back to Green growth urgently, I think.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Whose government vastly inflated the national debt with nothing concrete to show for it?
It was yours wasn't it?
And even then, our vast debts are minimal on the scale of previous debts held by this country or debts vs GDP of other countries. We're not about to go bust no matter how many times Tories accuse Labour of making it imminent. Our borrowing costs remain very low by global standards.
Besides, a third of our debt is owed to the Bank of England. Which we own. We're paying a lot of interest payments to ourselves. Its paper dollars. The proper debate should be how we are so wasteful with what we spend and how we spend it. What is the point in simultaneously tipping record amounts of cash into an NHS which is starved of cash at the point of delivery? We're spending money on all the wrong things.
I'll let the cavalier attitude to debt and inflation pass for now.
We are trying to have that debate.
What, pray, do you think are the wrong things we are spending money on ?
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
Funnily enough, I'm just reading a book on MMT, called the Deficit Myth, which argues exactly this. I though it'd be useful to understand MMT before criticising it.
Blimey, it's superficial. It runs to 260 pages but can be summed up as 'free lunches all round. And then dinner, breakfast, supper and tea too'.
Yes, we can print our own money. Yes, the government can oblige its creditors to take it. None of this stops inflation from happening when more money chases the same amount of goods and services. And inflation is the inevitable consequence of such a policy, as has been demonstrated many times through history, as well as in the famous identity MV≡PY (which the author doesn't even bother to reference, never mind refute).
In reality, many currencies across time have been depreciated into worthlessness by excessive printing, which is why some countries either peg their currency to another or use that other one outright - because that gave the only acceptable assurance that the money in people's hands meant anything.
Money is simply a means of exchange. Printing more of it does not make us richer overall; it just dilutes what's already there.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Seriously doubt wages in Turkey are higher than UK and with inflation still at 50% even more unlikely.
It depends which bit of the economy you are in. It is a rare country that doesn't have a bit with London property prices and shops selling 4 figure priced bath taps.
In the poorer countries those bits, are just smaller. Even Peru has some bits like that.
Mrs J's education and training was, and is, much in demand by certain companies in Turkey. And she cannot work on those sorts of projects in the UK because of her background.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
It's interesting that some people like the half the idea of Global Britain - easy to come here and work. But the corollary to that is that people find it easier to leave.
Take one bloke in my team. Indian, first generation immigrant. Got wife and baby, no school as yet. Been in the country about 6 years. Why shouldn't he move to Berlin, or wherever?
He looks at what he is paying in taxes and what he gets for it. And is not impressed. Transactional, maybe. But why should he think differently?
I agree. Mrs J is in that situation. She could be earning more in Turkey - or the USA - than here. But we don't move. Why? Partly the reasons she moved to this country in the first place, and partly because the UK is still a good place to live on a moderate income.
Others disagree. But the country needs more money to fix problems it has. Austerity - which I was in favour of - has been tried, and probably went too far. So how else do we get the money? There is no magic money tree.
Isn’t this attitude from you and Mrs J selfish? Mrs J could earn more and contribute more in taxes to the country that nurtured her but instead she has upped sticks to another country for reasons she has decided are better for her rather than society in general?
And frankly if you worked a bit harder you could contribute more in taxes to the UK but instead you rather selfishly have decided to balance your work and life to suit the needs of your family?
I think it’s perfectly fair and correct that you and Mrs J have chosen your residence to suit your priorities over the needs of a country as a whole.
She had reasons other than money and payment of taxes to come over here: in many ways she would (probably) be earning more over there. And hopefully she has been more than a net benefit to her adopted country.
And yes, you have a point: we are all selfish to a certain degree. I bet, if you dig deep into your soul, you what see selfishness in your good self.
So hopefully you'd agree with my original proposition, that these people are being selfish?
Oh I’m very selfish, I have chosen not to have children as too much effort, I have loose relationships for a few years or friends with benefits so I don’t have to work my life around other people, I’ve prioritised work and it’s rewards and mindless fun - that’s properly selfish.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
Do you say the same about economic migrants coming to the UK? Are they just being human and sensible?
Jessop give your head a wobble. I fear you are turning into a centrist dad.
Centrist Dad isn't a Centrist Dad.
Centrist Dad means someone who's firmly on the centre-left who wants their politics to be seen as entirely middle of the road.
That is your interpretation and the herd that liked your post. I was fearful for Jessop in case he became a hideous leftie.
President Carter's coffin has arrived in Washington Nation Cathedral with all 5 living Presidents and former Presidents (including President elect Trump) and spouses in attendance
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Whose government vastly inflated the national debt with nothing concrete to show for it?
It was yours wasn't it?
And even then, our vast debts are minimal on the scale of previous debts held by this country or debts vs GDP of other countries. We're not about to go bust no matter how many times Tories accuse Labour of making it imminent. Our borrowing costs remain very low by global standards.
Besides, a third of our debt is owed to the Bank of England. Which we own. We're paying a lot of interest payments to ourselves. Its paper dollars. The proper debate should be how we are so wasteful with what we spend and how we spend it. What is the point in simultaneously tipping record amounts of cash into an NHS which is starved of cash at the point of delivery? We're spending money on all the wrong things.
You are barking up the wrong tree. Casino has on several occasions dismissed the economic chaos that was bequeathed to the next Government after July 4th. He is a proponent of the golden legacy*.
I think we’re on the verge of a cage fight between the weak chinned pervert in Romania and the squeaky voiced SAS diddy becoming part of the UK political discourse.
A post typical of the modern-day Twitter underneath that, there.
"Why the hell hasn't the British military taken charge of the UK, yet?"
I'd like that Overton window back in place. It's moving fast and in the wrong direction.
Looking carefully, I can see that the poster is actually a Maga from Miami.
Musk's daily posts seem.to have convinced many thousands of them that Britain has collapsed, and needs a military takeover.
There are SO dumb, these MAGAs, aren't they? And now not one but two malevolent megalomaniacs have got them in their clutches. But they're proper people too, same as me and you. They have a vote and it happens to be in the country which when it sneezes we all get a fever and have to go to bed for a fortnight. I don't know what the answer is. Wait it out, I suppose.
Yup. I can only hope that that new attitude to Britain which is beginning to develop out there doesn't make them too cavalier, in what they do.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
Funnily enough, I'm just reading a book on MMT, called the Deficit Myth, which argues exactly this. I though it'd be useful to understand MMT before criticising it.
Blimey, it's superficial. It runs to 260 pages but can be summed up as 'free lunches all round. And then dinner, breakfast, supper and tea too'.
Yes, we can print our own money. Yes, the government can oblige its creditors to take it. None of this stops inflation from happening when more money chases the same amount of goods and services. And inflation is the inevitable consequence of such a policy, as has been demonstrated many times through history, as well as in the famous identity MV≡PY (which the author doesn't even bother to reference, never mind refute).
In reality, many currencies across time have been depreciated into worthlessness by excessive printing, which is why some countries either peg their currency to another or use that other one outright - because that gave the only acceptable assurance that the money in people's hands meant anything.
Money is simply a means of exchange. Printing more of it does not make us richer overall; it just dilutes what's already there.
When I grew up in the 1980s, a common thing on the BBC news was that tinpot dictator X had just changed the official, fixed exchange rate against the dollar. New rate just as stupid as the old. Followed by some stuff about the black market money changers. Inflation would be running at some crazy number.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
Funnily enough, I'm just reading a book on MMT, called the Deficit Myth, which argues exactly this. I though it'd be useful to understand MMT before criticising it.
Blimey, it's superficial. It runs to 260 pages but can be summed up as 'free lunches all round. And then dinner, breakfast, supper and tea too'.
Yes, we can print our own money. Yes, the government can oblige its creditors to take it. None of this stops inflation from happening when more money chases the same amount of goods and services. And inflation is the inevitable consequence of such a policy, as has been demonstrated many times through history, as well as in the famous identity MV≡PY (which the author doesn't even bother to reference, never mind refute).
In reality, many currencies across time have been depreciated into worthlessness by excessive printing, which is why some countries either peg their currency to another or use that other one outright - because that gave the only acceptable assurance that the money in people's hands meant anything.
Money is simply a means of exchange. Printing more of it does not make us richer overall; it just dilutes what's already there.
I'm not sure we understand what makes us richer (economically speaking). I'm pretty sure no economists know.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
Funnily enough, I'm just reading a book on MMT, called the Deficit Myth, which argues exactly this. I though it'd be useful to understand MMT before criticising it.
Blimey, it's superficial. It runs to 260 pages but can be summed up as 'free lunches all round. And then dinner, breakfast, supper and tea too'.
Yes, we can print our own money. Yes, the government can oblige its creditors to take it. None of this stops inflation from happening when more money chases the same amount of goods and services. And inflation is the inevitable consequence of such a policy, as has been demonstrated many times through history, as well as in the famous identity MV≡PY (which the author doesn't even bother to reference, never mind refute).
In reality, many currencies across time have been depreciated into worthlessness by excessive printing, which is why some countries either peg their currency to another or use that other one outright - because that gave the only acceptable assurance that the money in people's hands meant anything.
Money is simply a means of exchange. Printing more of it does not make us richer overall; it just dilutes what's already there.
The better MMT economists are very keen on pointing out that the limit on government expenditure in a fiat economy is not taxes or bond sales but /inflation/. You can (and possibly should) print as much as you like /until/ inflation starts kicking in.
The reality is that an awful lot of the time, that means you can’t print at all - this obstinate fact often seems to be glossed over by the more naïve MMT types & their hangers on. There’s no economic benefit to printing if all that happens is an immediate countervailing inflation in the price level, which may well be the condition the UK economy is in right now.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Whose government vastly inflated the national debt with nothing concrete to show for it?
It was yours wasn't it?
And even then, our vast debts are minimal on the scale of previous debts held by this country or debts vs GDP of other countries. We're not about to go bust no matter how many times Tories accuse Labour of making it imminent. Our borrowing costs remain very low by global standards.
Besides, a third of our debt is owed to the Bank of England. Which we own. We're paying a lot of interest payments to ourselves. Its paper dollars. The proper debate should be how we are so wasteful with what we spend and how we spend it. What is the point in simultaneously tipping record amounts of cash into an NHS which is starved of cash at the point of delivery? We're spending money on all the wrong things.
I'll let the cavalier attitude to debt and inflation pass for now.
We are trying to have that debate.
What, pray, do you think are the wrong things we are spending money on ?
The list under the Johnson regime was f*****' enormous, not least the eye watering cost of imposing economic sanctions on ourselves after a faulty plebiscite in 2016.
President Carter's coffin has arrived in Washington Nation Cathedral with all 5 living Presidents and former Presidents (including President elect Trump) and spouses in attendance
One of the those very sombre and symbolic, hatred and gloved Winter state occasions.
Yes but even then on that poll Farage has zero chance of becoming PM without Tory confidence and supply. So Kemi would be Kingmaker and want a place in his Cabinet assuming she didn’t back Starmer.
Most likely though on that poll it would be a Labour minority government with LD and SNP confidence and supply
On those results wouldn't she want to resign before she was pushed?
No, Kemi is very stubborn. She would say she lost far fewer seats than Rishi did and I doubt any other Tory leadership contender would be desperate to take over a third placed party.
She would also be quite powerful, Kemi would be near deciding whether to make Farage PM or giving support to Starmer, the LDs and SNP in a very hung parliament
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
Funnily enough, I'm just reading a book on MMT, called the Deficit Myth, which argues exactly this. I though it'd be useful to understand MMT before criticising it.
Blimey, it's superficial. It runs to 260 pages but can be summed up as 'free lunches all round. And then dinner, breakfast, supper and tea too'.
Yes, we can print our own money. Yes, the government can oblige its creditors to take it. None of this stops inflation from happening when more money chases the same amount of goods and services. And inflation is the inevitable consequence of such a policy, as has been demonstrated many times through history, as well as in the famous identity MV≡PY (which the author doesn't even bother to reference, never mind refute).
In reality, many currencies across time have been depreciated into worthlessness by excessive printing, which is why some countries either peg their currency to another or use that other one outright - because that gave the only acceptable assurance that the money in people's hands meant anything.
Money is simply a means of exchange. Printing more of it does not make us richer overall; it just dilutes what's already there.
The better MMT economists are very keen on pointing out that the limit on government expenditure in a fiat economy is not taxes or bond sales but /inflation/. You can (and possibly should) print as much as you like /until/ inflation starts kicking in.
The reality is that an awful lot of the time, that means you can’t print at all - this obstinate fact often seems to be glossed over by the more naïve MMT types & their hangers on. There’s no economic benefit to printing if all that happens is an immediate countervailing inflation in the price level, which may well be the condition the UK economy is in right now.
It's pretty simple - money is just a representation of stuff. If you change the ratio of money to stuff, the value of money changes.
In answer to the question posed in the header, I think it highly unlikely Starmer will sack Reeves.
The proximate reason for high bond yield prices now is the same as for Liz Truss: the market doesn't believe future tax revenues will cover future expenditure requirements.
There's a huge political difference between the two however. In Truss case she didn't see why revenues need to cover expenditure. In Reeves case it's because the market believes it will be politically difficult to either increase taxes or reduce expenditure to balance the books, and both will negatively affect growth. Replacing Reeves doesn't remove that dilemma.
Your last sentence hits the nail on the head
It doesn't matter who is COE we have run out of money, room to tax or borrow, so austerity is inevitable
The problem for Labour is it goes against everything they stand for and is politically toxic
President Carter's coffin has arrived in Washington Nation Cathedral with all 5 living Presidents and former Presidents (including President elect Trump) and spouses in attendance
One of the those very sombre and symbolic, hatred and gloved Winter state occasions.
Yes but even then on that poll Farage has zero chance of becoming PM without Tory confidence and supply. So Kemi would be Kingmaker and want a place in his Cabinet assuming she didn’t back Starmer.
Most likely though on that poll it would be a Labour minority government with LD and SNP confidence and supply
SAw what you did there.
Clue: what party doesn't like voting on England-only matters?
Yes Starmer could form a UK government with SNP and LD support on those figures but would NOT have a majority in England, he would need Kemi's support to get England only legislation through as the SNP would abstain on those matters
President Carter's coffin has arrived in Washington Nation Cathedral with all 5 living Presidents and former Presidents (including President elect Trump) and spouses in attendance
One of the those very sombre and symbolic, hatred and gloved Winter state occasions.
Dignity handing over to its opposite.
Trump becomes the second former and future president to attend such an occasion since Grover Cleveland attended the funeral of Rutherford B Hayes on January 20th 1893.
Lots of talk on TwiX now about the millionaires and non Doms fleeing the UK. At a time of great impoverishment the Labour government has contrived to frighten away the most important part of our tax base, and told them btw private schools will be slowly abolished via taxes
It’s all adding up. All these allegedly small things are adding up to a looming and desperate collision with reality. Even as we allow in millions of migrants who will be a net drain on the treasury, house thousands of asylum seekers in the savoy at billions a year, and pay Tanzania forty trillion quid to take control of Cornwall
It’s coming. A crash
Brace
As always 'More or Less' is your friend. When you were spouting this awhile ago More or Less debunked it. Who to believe, some nutters on twitter or people who analyse the data properly. It appears the definition of millionaire and sample selection were, how can we put it, bollocks.
Are you seriously disputing that rich people are leaving the UK? Every metric shows they are and in number
COUTTS LONDON PRIME PROPERTY INDEX Q3 2024: PRICES DROP AND BUYERS GET BIGGER DISCOUNTS
Our latest research on luxury London property shows prices falling, average discounts close to 9% and almost 80% of sales coming in below asking price.
Nope I'm not. Just pointing out that last time you did this by quoting a survey you saw somewhere it turned out to be complete bollocks. I know you think you are always right, but you seem to have a very short memory and a very poor source of your data.
If it helps I can give you personal experience instead of surveys - over the pre Christmas drinks party rounds I met (and I noted the number for work reasons) 22 couples who have already or are in the process of moving here from the UK as an absolute direct result of Labour winning the election last year.
All of these people, all 22 couples were people who had set up successful businesses - not inherited money. They are selling or have sold their UK properties, stopped paying staff, stopped buying luxury goods and cars in the UK. Will not be setting up new business or employing people in the UK for the foreseeable future, not paying any more taxes to the UK.
This is one small place - just think how many are going to larger places such as Switzerland, Dubai etc.
I’m sure there will be people who say “good riddance” but remember the new car they bought each year covered an essential salary from the VAT. The shops they shopped in need fewer staff with fewer customers. Their gardeners and housekeepers will find fewer hours to work.
I’ve said it before - I do not rejoice in this, it’s not necessarily good for where I live but it’s worse for the UK which I love.
So ideologically sticking it to the rich will prove to be a stupid act of self harm.
It is a shame they're going. But I also fear there's very little we can do to help people who are so utterly selfish.
Or perhaps you/we are?
I'd certainly think so if someone demanded all my money whilst I took all the risk and did all the work.
Nah. I've not demanded all your money. Far from. But from what I see, you live a good life. Others, who work harder than you, and take many more risks, are much less rewarded.
I want to reward those who work hard, and also those who take risks (e.g. in starting up businesses). But that has to be tempered by the fact you also live in society. If you take risks and fail - as can happen if it is a genuine risk - then you should not be left destitute.
And an awful lot of people earn money with very little risk - in both the private and public sector.
If, heaven forfend, you are taken ill, then you would want the doctors and nurses who look after you not to be overworked and to have access to all the equipment you need? Why should the binmen who are out collecting our bins this morning not get paid well for work I wouldn't want to do? How about a careworker I know who just told me he got threatened by an elderly patient, and the police had to be called?
We live in a society, and that society needs to work as a whole. We are not islands.
Yeah, but this is motherhood and apple pie stuff and you could use it to defend any level of tax. In fact, you just have. Because you're using it as an argument to pay tax - period - and not acknowledging there's a limit. What it comes down to is resentment that some people earn more than you, and you want some of it.
When you tax people at 60%+ for stressful jobs, that involve a lot of stress, professional and personal risk (no-one gets paid a good salary for a simple job just about anyone can do) then at some point they will say, fuck it.
You will have no recourse to criticise them.
No, is it resentment. I'm perfectly happy with people earning more than we do as a family. Incredibly relaxed. I've said so many times in the past. I want work rewarded - at the low as well as the top end. And there's big problems with both of these at the moment.
But I also understand that we live in a society, and are part of that society. Without money, that society falls apart - including the bits you rely on. So it becomes a question of where to balance that. And sadly, that balance is currently set so the country is in debt.
If you want stress, I might suggest you try not having enough money to get food on the table for your family, or not enough to pay rent to keep the roof over your head. To have two kids, one of whom has Down's Syndrome. to have a spouse with cancer, and finding it hard to get the bus fare to the hospital (only to find the appointment has been cancelled...)
Yeah, fuck off JJ. I have plenty of my stress in my life, including a brother in law who died of cancer. And my wife nearly died during childbirth.
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
I'm sorry to hear about those problems. But you do have it easier than others, as you have money. Money helps massively, as we ourselves know from experience.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
There would be no safety net in Casinoworld. Now that is fair enough if one is so inclined, but not for me. I think it an outrage that after six months of a LABOUR government ex servicemen with PTSD are still living in tents under Westminster Bridge.
Er, no. I haven't argued for that, so please don't put words in my mouth. False binaries are a stupid way of conducting political debate.
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
How can the country go insolvent? Our debt is issued in a currency which we control. We cannot run out of pounds as we can print them to repay the debt. And don't say "we can't" because we can and already do.
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
And there we have the economic literacy of the Liberal Democrats, ladies and gentlemen.
Whose government vastly inflated the national debt with nothing concrete to show for it?
It was yours wasn't it?
And even then, our vast debts are minimal on the scale of previous debts held by this country or debts vs GDP of other countries. We're not about to go bust no matter how many times Tories accuse Labour of making it imminent. Our borrowing costs remain very low by global standards.
Besides, a third of our debt is owed to the Bank of England. Which we own. We're paying a lot of interest payments to ourselves. Its paper dollars. The proper debate should be how we are so wasteful with what we spend and how we spend it. What is the point in simultaneously tipping record amounts of cash into an NHS which is starved of cash at the point of delivery? We're spending money on all the wrong things.
You are barking up the wrong tree. Casino has on several occasions dismissed the economic chaos that was bequeathed to the next Government after July 4th. He is a proponent of the golden legacy*.
*My terminology and not Casino's.
Is that the economic chaos that saw Sunak/Hunt deliver decent economic growth for the first half of 2024 which was subsequently killed after 4th July?
The late Gerald Ford's son is reading out his eulogy to Carter he would have given had he still been alive, quite touching about unity across the partisan divide, needed more than ever now in the USA
Comments
I don't need twats like you telling me we have it easy, nor that we don't know what hard times in life are like - both my wife and I started with nothing.
Twat.
People arranging their finances and choosing where to live is just being human and sensible not selfish.
That new SDP then formally wound itself up and ceased to exist. Again, a few former members disagreed with that move and formed a third party with the same name. They're who the current SDP are.
The main driver for debt difficulties in Europe is the idea that our economies are about to get f***** by an incontinent orange person.
If you started with nothing, you would understand what it is like not being able to food on the table. What it is like having to live day-by-day, rather than being able to have the luxury of saving. And you might contemplate what minor issue - illness, accident, a failed relationship, whatever - would have changed you from the success you are today to a failure.
A friend of mine was from a coal-mining family and was the first in her family to go to university. She is as bright as a button. Whilst she was there, she got struck down with ME and another complication. Getting her degree nearly killed her, and she has been bedridden ever since. Living off the state. That could have been me. It could have been you.
Lab -24
Con +21
Ref +8
LD +3
Grn +2
In reality, the SDP today has less in common with that of 1992 than the 1992 one did with 1983.
A multi country crisis would probably be triggered by the US and hit us, France, Italy and a couple of other relatively highly leveraged countries while sparing the likes of Germany, South Korea and probably Canada.
A single country crisis is unlikely to focus on us. Several other governments have significantly worse looking balance sheets, including the US.
At what point does political knockabout become defamatory. That’s actually an interesting question.
Any lawyer worth their salt should be advising Mrs T that she hasn't got a leg to stand on. You can sue for defamation but you will almost certainly lose because of this clear obvious and unambiguous line of defence.
Set the lawyer aside for a minute. I assume she has advisors? Is using her £160k a year PM's allowance for staffers to tell her what to do? She needs to hire better ones - if her team have said "sue him, great idea, bound to win" then they are useless to her.
The current SDP was set up by a small minority of the 1988-90 party, which was set up by a small minority of the original party.
In terms of vote share, Labour are down about ten points since those seats were last fought, Conservatives flat (though I suspect there's a fair bit of churn there) Ref up about 9, LD up about 3.
https://www.markpack.org.uk/171259/council-by-elections-results-the-quarterly-stats/
I think that's what I've always been - even before I was a dad...
Several things can be true at once: yes, "there but for the grace of God go I", is one and it also the case that we are spending far too much money on welfare and have reached the limits of taxation, which is now suppressing growth and public funds, not growing it.
We can all find powerful personal stories that illicit empathy and sympathy, as we can the other way, and these can and will fall either side of whatever line is drawn, but we are spending far too much on incapacity benefits, pensions and, I think, health and that is where I'd look to make major savings. I'd spend more on education and defence. And I'd create a competitive tax regime that encourages growth.
The comments on this thread and the likes they've got just go to show how politically difficult that will be but that's got to be done. Some seem to think that those that are earning more than them must be undeserving of it, and are on the take at their expense, and give the impression they'd far rather cut them down to size than actually tax them at a rate that would maximise growth - which must be done to afford any of the things you care about.
There will be no safety net if the country goes insolvent.
Musk's daily posts seem.to have convinced many thousands of them that Britain has collapsed, and needs a military takeover.
Centrist Dad means someone who's firmly on the centre-left who wants their politics to be seen as entirely middle of the road.
Financial services optimism falls as Autumn Budget measures loom over investment plans
09 January 2025
Optimism in the FS sector fell at the quickest pace since September 2022, according to the latest CBI Financial Services Survey. That is despite business volumes growing at a faster pace in the quarter to December.
https://www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre/articles/financial-services-optimism-falls-as-autumn-budget-measures-loom-over-investment-plans/
Reeves may well also crash the nation but the effect is a slow frame by frame event which is more easily catchable.
Honest opinion defence - was the claim a statement of opinion that was held by the defendant and could be held by an honest person? See the truth defence. We all lived through this.
Public interest defence - political debate is public interest, and the disputed claim formed a very real part of both the Conservative Party's own narrative in removing Kwarteng and then Truss and openly stating that the complete u-turn was to stabilise the economy, and in the general election campaign fought by all parties where the crashed economy was accepted by all as fact.
If she didn't crash the economy, why did the economy happen to crash in the immediate aftermath of the mini budget? If she didn't crash the economy, why did she fire the Chancellor and hire someone to reverse all the economy crashing measures whilst making statements to calm the crashed markets?
We can run out of people willing to lend us more money at a price we want to pay, but that is a long way from insolvency.
/Now/ bond markets are telling the UK that it’s austerity or take the consequences.
It’s deeply ironic that we got a Conservative government that flatly refused to invest at the cheapest time for a government to invest in the UK ever & now we have a Labour government that would love to spend just as the economic winds have shifted & it’s now next to impossible to borrow the sums required. It’s a shitshow all round frankly. I guess we get the governments we deserve - good and hard.
Probably saved Bel Air.
But I am a dad, and I do think I'm generally in the centre of politics, so I am probably a 'centrist dad'...
I can see why TSE is not happy.
That doesn’t mean that you /should/ print but having the ability to do so insulates bond buyers from the risk that you run out of money during times of fiscal stress.
As with Musk, someone really needs to forcibly suggest that she goes and spends as long as it takes in a remote monastery or similar, with no access to any media at all.
The worst they can do is bring the Senedd to order.
This was the statement from the Chief Whip last March. Magic Money Tree stuff. You;d also believe these entitled boomers were modern day Joan's of Arc from the first paragraph of this drivel.
“These courageous women, who have tirelessly campaigned for justice after being left out of pocket, deserve our admiration for their persistence.
“Liberal Democrats have long supported WASPI in their campaign and it is now up to this Conservative Government to come forward with a plan to get these women the compensation they are owed.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekL2qFfEXtw
In the poorer countries those bits, are just smaller. Even Peru has some bits like that.
The proximate reason for high bond yield prices now is the same as for Liz Truss: the market doesn't believe future tax revenues will cover future expenditure requirements.
There's a huge political difference between the two however. In Truss case she didn't see why revenues need to cover expenditure. In Reeves case it's because the market believes it will be politically difficult to either increase taxes or reduce expenditure to balance the books, and both will negatively affect growth. Replacing Reeves doesn't remove that dilemma.
I am all for a mixed economy with everyone doing OK and paying fair taxes in civic society. This is is why I am a big fan of meritocratic and fair education, a temporary safety net for those who fall between the cracks, and a permanent safety net for those with severe medical conditions.
Tax me when I'm dead. I won't care.
It was yours wasn't it?
And even then, our vast debts are minimal on the scale of previous debts held by this country or debts vs GDP of other countries. We're not about to go bust no matter how many times Tories accuse Labour of making it imminent. Our borrowing costs remain very low by global standards.
Besides, a third of our debt is owed to the Bank of England. Which we own. We're paying a lot of interest payments to ourselves. Its paper dollars. The proper debate should be how we are so wasteful with what we spend and how we spend it. What is the point in simultaneously tipping record amounts of cash into an NHS which is starved of cash at the point of delivery? We're spending money on all the wrong things.
So the replacement chancellor is going to do what differently?
I'd *love* there to be lower taxes for everyone. But the country is nowhere near a state to allow that, and in fact, quite the opposite. People want more spending - e.g. on defence - but are not willing to spend more on it.
I'm just being realistic.
We are trying to have that debate.
What, pray, do you think are the wrong things we are spending money on ?
Blimey, it's superficial. It runs to 260 pages but can be summed up as 'free lunches all round. And then dinner, breakfast, supper and tea too'.
Yes, we can print our own money. Yes, the government can oblige its creditors to take it. None of this stops inflation from happening when more money chases the same amount of goods and services. And inflation is the inevitable consequence of such a policy, as has been demonstrated many times through history, as well as in the famous identity MV≡PY (which the author doesn't even bother to reference, never mind refute).
In reality, many currencies across time have been depreciated into worthlessness by excessive printing, which is why some countries either peg their currency to another or use that other one outright - because that gave the only acceptable assurance that the money in people's hands meant anything.
Money is simply a means of exchange. Printing more of it does not make us richer overall; it just dilutes what's already there.
*My terminology and not Casino's.
I can only hope that that new attitude to Britain which is beginning to develop out there doesn't make them too cavalier, in what they do.
The reality is that an awful lot of the time, that means you can’t print at all - this obstinate fact often seems to be glossed over by the more naïve MMT types & their hangers on. There’s no economic benefit to printing if all that happens is an immediate countervailing inflation in the price level, which may well be the condition the UK economy is in right now.
Dignity handing over to its opposite.
She would also be quite powerful, Kemi would be near deciding whether to make Farage PM or giving support to Starmer, the LDs and SNP in a very hung parliament
It doesn't matter who is COE we have run out of money, room to tax or borrow, so austerity is inevitable
The problem for Labour is it goes against everything they stand for and is politically toxic
(still a nice post though)