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Heart of Oak – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,254
edited January 3 in General
imageHeart of Oak – politicalbetting.com

In my previous header, I referred to teacher shortages, and noted they are about to get much worse. This is an explanation of that remark and why I think it’s Phillipson’s fault.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,052
    Evening all :)

    This isn’t a subject on which I can comment with any knowledge, expertise or information.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    This isn’t a subject on which I can comment with any knowledge, expertise or information.

    That’s never stopped anyone else, e.g. Bridget Phillipson, Amanda Spielman, Susan Acland-Hood or Dominic Cummings, so feel free to dive right in!

    *Thinks about yesterday’s thread*

    *Gets popcorn*
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    I always find the English preech diversity but really mean conformity

    What Lord Hannan famously called “BBC Diversity - people who might look different but all think exactly the same”.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    On topic, what a surprise to hear that Y Doethur isn’t a fan of the Secretary of State for Education.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a surprise to hear that Y Doethur isn’t a fan of the Secretary of State for Education.

    I really upset somebody the other day by comparing her to Michael Gove.

    What I’m increasingly thinking is it probably doesn’t matter much who the SoS is, it’s the system itself that is the issue. That’s where I’d certainly start looking if I wanted genuine reform, rather than faffing around with reviews and payment systems.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a surprise to hear that Y Doethur isn’t a fan of the Secretary of State for Education.

    I really upset somebody the other day by comparing her to Michael Gove.

    What I’m increasingly thinking is it probably doesn’t matter much who the SoS is, it’s the system itself that is the issue. That’s where I’d certainly start looking if I wanted genuine reform, rather than faffing around with reviews and payment systems.
    So Gove and Cummings were right when they talked about “The Blob”?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,052
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    This isn’t a subject on which I can comment with any knowledge, expertise or information.

    Are you new here? It's not a requirement.
    I wanted to come up with a witty response to this but I can’t think of anything.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524
    The National Curriculum was introduced by Mrs Thatchers government in order to stamp out diversity of practice, and to enforce teaching of what that government thought important in terms of history and culture.

    The boot is on the other foot now, and Labour get to promote what they think matters in terms of culture and history. Wasn't it the Jesuits who said "give me the boy before the age of 7, and I will give you the man"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    edited January 3
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a surprise to hear that Y Doethur isn’t a fan of the Secretary of State for Education.

    I really upset somebody the other day by comparing her to Michael Gove.

    What I’m increasingly thinking is it probably doesn’t matter much who the SoS is, it’s the system itself that is the issue. That’s where I’d certainly start looking if I wanted genuine reform, rather than faffing around with reviews and payment systems.
    So Gove and Cummings were right when they talked about “The Blob”?
    Yes, but they had the wrong ‘blob.’ The real ‘blob’ was the one they actually ended up becoming part of, and implemented many things it had wanted for years and benefitted hugely from. Which I don’t think, to be fair, was the intention.

    It’s the old problem of how do you lift a plank while you’re standing on it?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358
    Clegg being replaced by a Trump friendly Republican at Facebook pretty much ensures a Farage win sooner or later. Twitter, Facebook, GBNews, Mail, Express, Telegraph et al will all double down on the Labour hate and Conservative pity for the next four years.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a surprise to hear that Y Doethur isn’t a fan of the Secretary of State for Education.

    I really upset somebody the other day by comparing her to Michael Gove.

    What I’m increasingly thinking is it probably doesn’t matter much who the SoS is, it’s the system itself that is the issue. That’s where I’d certainly start looking if I wanted genuine reform, rather than faffing around with reviews and payment systems.
    So Gove and Cummings were right when they talked about “The Blob”?
    Yes, but they had the wrong ‘blob.’ The real ‘blob’ was the one they actually ended up becoming part of, and implemented many things it had wanted for years and benefitted hugely from. Which I don’t think, to be fair, was the intention.

    It’s the old problem of how do you lift a plank while you’re standing on it?
    If we are serious about deregulation, diversity and tackling the (imaginary) "Blob", we should simply junk the entire national curriculum, and inspection regime apart from child safety.

    Let parents, teachers and schools choose what is important, not the central government.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, what a surprise to hear that Y Doethur isn’t a fan of the Secretary of State for Education.

    I really upset somebody the other day by comparing her to Michael Gove.

    What I’m increasingly thinking is it probably doesn’t matter much who the SoS is, it’s the system itself that is the issue. That’s where I’d certainly start looking if I wanted genuine reform, rather than faffing around with reviews and payment systems.
    So Gove and Cummings were right when they talked about “The Blob”?
    Yes, but they had the wrong ‘blob.’ The real ‘blob’ was the one they actually ended up becoming part of, and implemented many things it had wanted for years and benefitted hugely from. Which I don’t think, to be fair, was the intention.

    It’s the old problem of how do you lift a plank while you’re standing on it?
    If we are serious about deregulation, diversity and tackling the (imaginary) "Blob", we should simply junk the entire national curriculum, and inspection regime apart from child safety.

    Let parents, teachers and schools choose what is important, not the central government.
    We should.

    But we’re* not.

    So we won’t.

    *As a nation.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,839

    Clegg being replaced by a Trump friendly Republican at Facebook pretty much ensures a Farage win sooner or later. Twitter, Facebook, GBNews, Mail, Express, Telegraph et al will all double down on the Labour hate and Conservative pity for the next four years.

    Kemi has no option now but to try to be Farage With a Fanny (not Ticey, a real one), but it's probably too late and she isn't really very good at that sort of thing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312

    I always find the English preech diversity but really mean conformity

    Move to Scotland?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312
    Dethreaded !

    FPT:
    rcs1000 said:

    MJW said:

    Very awkward for Badenoch, calling for an inquiry when those who ran the previous inquiries your government commissioned into the same thing are accusing your government of failing to act on their recommendations.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/02/ex-chief-prosecutor-rejects-musks-calls-for-new-child-abuse-inquiry

    Surely all she has to do is to call an enquiry into why the recommendations from the previous enquiry were not followed.
    It's a test case for her, as to whether she is a serious politician or not.

    Will she double down on oppositionalism, or we she work across party to address questions which she and her fellow ministers, and others from her party before her, failed to address.

    Imo it probably *requires* a cross-party response.

    If Kemi and the Conservatives are the party of the pensioners, as they seem to think, then she needs to address the issue of social care.

    If Kemi wants a more rapid response, then let her put forward her proposals - she already has multiple lots of ideas that he party proposed then ran away from. Imo shit-slinging won't cut it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312
    On Day of the Jackal ...
    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    We finished The Day of the Jackal today and I think it's the best spy/assassin series I've seen in ages. Eddie Redmayne has staked a big claim to 007, he was brilliantly believable throughout the whole show. In terms of spy alone it's probably a smidge below Slow Horses, but I think that's an all time great.

    I initially thought he'd be a 007 candidate too, but I think he's too slight and his body language is off. Compare his watermelon scene to Edward Fox's

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCfwlcvU1KY

    Redmayne, despite his age (42) still has the body language of a younger man with bits flapping. Fox was 36 when he filmed the original but his body language was mature: stiffer and more precise, a vice to Redmayne's reed. Although I think Redmayne has the potential to be a better Bond than Aaron-Taylor Johnson, he will really have to put more muscle on and work on his body movement.
    That's really interesting - thank-you.

    Has increasing the run length by a factor of 3-5 made it more flabby, or introduced too much padding, in your view?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,038
    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    MattW said:

    Dethreaded !

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    MJW said:

    Very awkward for Badenoch, calling for an inquiry when those who ran the previous inquiries your government commissioned into the same thing are accusing your government of failing to act on their recommendations.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/02/ex-chief-prosecutor-rejects-musks-calls-for-new-child-abuse-inquiry

    Surely all she has to do is to call an enquiry into why the recommendations from the previous enquiry were not followed.
    It's a test case for her, as to whether she is a serious politician or not.

    Will she double down on oppositionalism, or we she work across party to address questions which she and her fellow ministers, and others from her party before her, failed to address.

    Imo it probably *requires* a cross-party response.

    If Kemi and the Conservatives are the party of the pensioners, as they seem to think, then she needs to address the issue of social care.

    If Kemi wants a more rapid response, then let her put forward her proposals - she already has multiple lots of ideas that he party proposed then ran away from. Imo shit-slinging won't cut it.
    Kemi does not need to address it this far out

    Labour are in government for another 4+ years and they have kicked it into the long grass

    It does need party concensus but in the present climate that is not an option
  • eekeek Posts: 28,774
    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    To say I'm disappointed with this Government would be the understatement of the century.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    MattW said:

    I always find the English preech diversity but really mean conformity

    Move to Scotland?
    Wonderful Scottish joke:

    A minister in Dumfries was preaching on the text of 'love thy neighbour.' 'Who is our neighbour? Our neighbour is the Turk, the Mussulman, the Chinaman, the Frenchman, the American, for the whole world is our neighbour.'

    Pauses.

    'Aye, even the very Englishman is our neighbour.'

    Not sure if Malc would agree?

    (That was a joke told by a former Bishop of the Scottish Episcopal Church.)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,330

    Clegg being replaced by a Trump friendly Republican at Facebook pretty much ensures a Farage win sooner or later. Twitter, Facebook, GBNews, Mail, Express, Telegraph et al will all double down on the Labour hate and Conservative pity for the next four years.

    I am amazed that Trump considered FB the enemy. In my experience it has increasingly become the most concentrated knot of disgruntled reactionary moaners of a certain age, ie prime material for the siren song of Trump/Farage/Robinson etc.
    incidentally it’s also morphed from a platform with some of the worst human authored prose around to being infested by the worst AI generated prose.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    It's becoming their dna
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    You're having a bit of an ad hom streak recently, Roger.

    My wife was a primary teacher for a couple of decades, and I was a school governor for about half that time.

    What little knowledge I have tends to confirm @ydoethur 's judgments.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited January 3
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    I’ve been in this game 20 years now. Ample time to have several jobs especially since like most people I started on temporary contracts and had a few of them before getting a permanent role.

    Some were part time, most were full time.

    Interestingly none of them involved being a manager in my parents’ firm…
    Well that's why you're here writing headers and not sitting in Sir Keir's Cabinet
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    A suggestion for your Friday morning read is this article on AI: https://garymarcus.substack.com/p/25-ai-predictions-for-2025-from-marcus (Note: it isn’t paywalled, you can just click past the ‘do you want to subscribe’ question.)

    It offers a view of generative AI that it will continue to impact some areas of employment, but that we have now hit a period of diminishing returns and it will fail to have the widespread impacts enthusiasts have predicted.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    It's becoming their dna
    It's in their DNA, but it's thoroughly unbecoming.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    I’ve been in this game 20 years now. Ample time to have several jobs especially since like most people I started on temporary contracts and had a few of them before getting a permanent role.

    Some were part time, most were full time.

    Interestingly none of them involved being a manager in my parents’ firm…
    Well that's why you're here writing headers and not sitting in Sir Keir's Cabinbet
    @Ydoethur is doing a far better job than the very unpopular Starmer and his cabinet
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    ....and the answer is?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    It quite surprising that Farage, alongside other well-known-in-America British commentators on the child abuse issue such as Konstantin Kisin and JK Rowling, haven’t been all over Twitter in the last 48 hours saying they want nothing to do with “Tommy” and that he belongs in prison.

    “Tommy” appears to have something of an American fan club, his supporters have done an apparently good job of getting his name known over there as someone who stands up for free speech, as opposed to someone who has nearly caused a number of trials to be abandoned and is in prison for disobeying a court order to stop libelling people.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    Roger said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    ....and the answer is?
    A competent administration and PM which we are woefully short of
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312
    edited January 3
    An old Top Gear clip very suitable for this weekend's weather, if the cold snap forecasts hold out. It involves Range Rover humiliation, which we may see across the country if the roads get a bit slippery.

    It's currently 1C here at the top of North Notts.

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YLLhJ_zD48A
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,763
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    I’ve been in this game 20 years now. Ample time to have several jobs especially since like most people I started on temporary contracts and had a few of them before getting a permanent role.

    Some were part time, most were full time.

    Interestingly none of them involved being a manager in my parents’ firm…
    Well that's why you're here writing headers and not sitting in Sir Keir's Cabinet
    I don't think he'd want me. I don't take bribes, I'm not involved in sex scandals and I don't replace my phone every year (and when I do replace it I pay for it).

    Plus, I'm an expert on education which would rule me out straight away.
    Oh, no need to be modest. The last point would qualify you at once to be minister for, say, science policy or transport.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    .
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    To say I'm disappointed with this Government would be the understatement of the century.
    You had positive expectation of them ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    MattW said:

    An old Top Gear clip very suitable for this weekend's weather, if the cold snap forecasts hold out. It involves Range Rover humiliation.

    It's currently 1C here at the top of North Notts.

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YLLhJ_zD48A

    It was extremely slippery here yesterday. All that rain frozen hard, the roads were like skating rinks.

    I was in full mountain boots with soles designed for maximum grip, and I still fell once (fortunately without doing any damage).

    Doesn't look much better today.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,052

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    It's becoming their dna
    To be fair, the previous Government didn’t act quickly and wasted far too much time, effort and money getting out of the EU than dealing with this far more important issue.

    Caring for both vulnerable adults AND children now eats up vast amounts of local Government expenditure but to simply “nationalise” the whole process via a National Care Agency will be hugely problematic for local councils as care isn’t just about the recipients of that care but the places and mechanisms by which that care is delivered, both in terms of accommodation and finances.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,835
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    To say I'm disappointed with this Government would be the understatement of the century.
    This Government was always going to disappoint from when it failed to understand that what was really needed most urgently was a reshaping of our democratic structures to deal with the IT/AI revolution.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258
    Another very informative thread header, thanks @ydoethur
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,759
    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,166
    Sandpit said:

    What Lord Hannan famously called “BBC Diversity - people who might look different but all think exactly the same”.

    tlg86 said:

    BBC diversity: everyone looks different but thinks the same.

    PB Diversity. Everyone posts the same quote...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    I’ve been in this game 20 years now. Ample time to have several jobs especially since like most people I started on temporary contracts and had a few of them before getting a permanent role.

    Some were part time, most were full time.

    Interestingly none of them involved being a manager in my parents’ firm…
    Well that's why you're here writing headers and not sitting in Sir Keir's Cabinet
    I don't think he'd want me. I don't take bribes, I'm not involved in sex scandals and I don't replace my phone every year (and when I do replace it I pay for it).

    Plus, I'm an expert on education which would rule me out straight away.
    Lord Y'Doethur of Dymock in the County of Gloucestershire does have a ring to it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    a
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    I’ve been in this game 20 years now. Ample time to have several jobs especially since like most people I started on temporary contracts and had a few of them before getting a permanent role.

    Some were part time, most were full time.

    Interestingly none of them involved being a manager in my parents’ firm…
    Well that's why you're here writing headers and not sitting in Sir Keir's Cabinet
    I don't think he'd want me. I don't take bribes, I'm not involved in sex scandals and I don't replace my phone every year (and when I do replace it I pay for it).

    Plus, I'm an expert on education which would rule me out straight away.
    Oh, no need to be modest. The last point would qualify you at once to be minister for, say, science policy or transport.
    Wasn’t part of the original premise that Hacker was actually an expert in Agriculture, so they made sure he never went near that?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    I’ve been in this game 20 years now. Ample time to have several jobs especially since like most people I started on temporary contracts and had a few of them before getting a permanent role.

    Some were part time, most were full time.

    Interestingly none of them involved being a manager in my parents’ firm…
    Well that's why you're here writing headers and not sitting in Sir Keir's Cabinet
    I don't think he'd want me. I don't take bribes, I'm not involved in sex scandals and I don't replace my phone every year (and when I do replace it I pay for it).

    Plus, I'm an expert on education which would rule me out straight away.
    Lord Y'Doethur of Dymock in the County of Gloucestershire does have a ring to it.
    Oi! It's the others that are pigs in the trough.

    (To explain that 'Dymock' is an anglicisation of 'Tŷ Moch' - pig sty.)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713
    edited January 3
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    To say I'm disappointed with this Government would be the understatement of the century.
    The last government had to go.

    I think many expected a short period of honest and competent government from this one, but it seems they expected too much.

    WRT the header, I expect plenty in authority see nothing problematic with paying teenagers for sex.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    On topic

    Good header.

    Most countries have some form of national curriculum. It kinda goes with national exams.

    Which countries have the least insane curriculum?
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374
    Sandpit said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    It quite surprising that Farage, alongside other well-known-in-America British commentators on the child abuse issue such as Konstantin Kisin and JK Rowling, haven’t been all over Twitter in the last 48 hours saying they want nothing to do with “Tommy” and that he belongs in prison.

    “Tommy” appears to have something of an American fan club, his supporters have done an apparently good job of getting his name known over there as someone who stands up for free speech, as opposed to someone who has nearly caused a number of trials to be abandoned and is in prison for disobeying a court order to stop libelling people.
    When the Civil Disobedience that Musk and Robinson clearly want to reoccur occurs, Farage (as before with his deliberate and calculted intervention) and now Badenoch with her fatal error of judgement in going against not only her recently departed Government policy, which Labout is only enacting) will be tainted with the fact that they are complicit in stoking up the tension.

    If it turns in to a "civil war" of kind on the streets of our Towns and Cities and our Properties; Cultures , Emergency Services and actual fabric of our democracy is put under threat, where does she think (I discount Farage as he is 100% a political opportunist that is his sole policy) that is going to leave her in the eyes of the vast majority of Public Opinion.

    THE UK at WAR, and this will be a war, have absolutly no doubt has an inbuilt tendency to support the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Government - whether they are popular or NOT....All she will do is to turn the Tory Party in to Reform / Fascist Light!

    The moderate One Nation wing of the Tory Party will 100% no doubt split and seek to take her and her zealots down!

    The Mail / Telegraph / Express will revert to type and support the Fascists and we are potentially looking at this Country being targetted and attacked as never before from MAGA / MUSK and trojan horses and Traitors within....

    Starmer showed real leadership and balls in August and can do so again.

    His first move should be to speak to the Germans and French - equally threatened by Musk and to formulate a plan to neuter him!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    edited January 3
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,759
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    Brilliant. All power to you. Rise above the frustration and exasperation. Teach!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,110

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,774

    MJW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MJW said:

    Very awkward for Badenoch, calling for an inquiry when those who ran the previous inquiries your government commissioned into the same thing are accusing your government of failing to act on their recommendations.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/02/ex-chief-prosecutor-rejects-musks-calls-for-new-child-abuse-inquiry

    Well, just because the Tories did the wrong thing for 14 years doesn't mean they can't do the right thing now.

    An inquiry into what has gone on with these grooming gangs should be beyond party and I'm very surprised that Labour is so adamant there shouldn't be one....
    It's not that there 'shouldn't be one' - it's that we've already had several, whose recommendations are yet to be fully implemented. And inquiries, done properly can take an absolute age and cost tens, in one case hundreds of millions of pounds.

    This would very much be at the more complex end given if we just count the police forces and councils already criticised in previous inquiries or reports, that's already several. Before we get to other allegations that might be made about failures to tackle abuse to see their merit. It would have to hear from thousands of individuals, and the Maxwellisation process would be something to behold.

    If we're doing that then we could be waiting another decade for its conclusions, which may well end up saying the same thing as the ones we've conducted already. And of course like most inquiries, if it doesn't say the explicit thing those loudly calling for it want it to say (and these things usually don't as even when scathing are careful with their words) - it'll be rejected by them as a whitewash.

    So if you've already had previous (damning) inquiries and reports which the previous government didn't act on. Then it's on those to explain why the previous policy of local inquiries should be changed, past reports should be thrown in the bin and start up a process that's going to be very long, gruelling with no guarantee it'll give you the answers you want.

    If it's because one can point to real flaws in the methodology and conclusions of the past inquiries and reports, fine. If it's "because Elon Musk is mouthing off about it online", it's a chance to bash the government, and you're worried by being outflanked by the far right's ability to say things without having to follow through on consequences, then that's not really serious or useful.

    I don't think I've heard Badenoch make the former case, and if so why her views have suddenly changed from previous policy.
    So in simple PLAIN ENGLISH that even the Reform boneheads and Kemi can understand the situation is this.

    These issues were disgusting and widespread but not restricted to Muslim Communities

    That various Enquiries were set up, reported, recommendations made and implemented and significant progress in some cases made, but also not fully implemented and loose ends in others.

    The Conservative Government 2010 - 2024 (with LD's to 2015) decided in 2022 that REGIONAL investigations and reporting was the way to go. Kemi Badenoch and all then Tory MP's backed this.

    SKS as DoPP was respected by the then Tory Government on his departure from DoPP as having made significant progress in dealing with the issue and raising it's profile and implementing change.

    In October 2024 the new Junior Minister Jess Phillips routinely decided in answer to a quetion in the HoC and also in terms on Labour Government POlicy to IMPLEMENT and CONTINUE Tory Governments Guidelines as voted on in the HoC

    There are / were NO MANIFESTO commitments on this on either side to change the status quo.

    EARLIER THIS WEEK GB News attacked the Phillips decision retrospectively!!!!!!

    MUSK decided to attack Starmer for his role as DoPP , called for Jess Phillips to be imprisoned and Tommy Robinson to be released.

    Kemi Badenoch decided to jump on the bandwagon

    MUSK who has associations to Jeffrey Epstein and Gisela Maxwell turns it in to a further attack on our democratically elected Government and it's policies and by definition and fact the policies of the previous Conservative Government of which Badenoch, Philip and others were Members

    ----

    So it you support Musk, Farage , Trump and Tommy Robinson and want to instigate Riots again and Civil Disobedience that aim is clear - an unadulterated attempt to destroy the elected UK Govenment

    If like Badenoch you completely go against your Governments Policy on this, you are complicit in supporting Musk, Farage , Trump and Tommy Robinson

    If like Starmer and Labour you stand up to Musk, Farage , Trump and Tommy Robinson - I suspect that you will be backed and supported to the vast majority of the UK population who wish to deal with THE ISSUE and not the politics and to actually DEFEND UK democracy.

    It strikes me sadly that MUSK wants Civil War and Mass disobedience on the streets of the major European and American Cities to foster his own sick and depraived mind.

    MUSK must be stopped and those complicit in supporting him must be STOPPED and every Legal means by Police and Judiciary should be mobilised NOW to start that process around the Globe.

    He is a massive danger to democratically elected longstanding Western democracies.

    Good morning

    The problem is no.matter how much you 'shout' about Musk he is not going away and it is likely to accelerate post Trump's inauguration

    The big question in politics today is just how public opinion views Musks interventions, and how much it affects Farage and Reform

    As far as Kemi is concerned she has to distance herself from Farage, but also focus on attacking this highly unpopular Labour government that saw 20 of its councillors defect yesterday in disgust at the leadership of Labour
    FPT, we more or less know the answer to this big question. It isn't, therefore much of a question. Musk is spectacularly unpopular.

    Here's the YouGov figures after his riots stupidity. https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50340-elon-musks-favourability-remains-unchanged-after-the-riots-but-xs-reputation-continues-to-decline

    Now you might argue his interventions would improve his standing but it seems vanishingly unlikely given the ham-fisted, moronic nature of them. Popular with Robinson and his goons maybe, who themselves are among the most hated people in Britain. I think it unlikely them having a cringeworthy billionaire fanboy going through some kind of mental meltdown and getting dangerously close to going full neo-Nazi is changing these things.

    As for 20 Labour councillors defecting, you'd rather they didn't - but isn't it a typical internal Labour row about who gets to stand? Not a happy party, but not the disaster you're making out.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    edited January 3
    The impeached president's party in S Korea is displaying the same kind of denial that we've seen in the US.

    Two thirds of its supporters believe the last parliamentary election (which they unsurprisingly lost badly) was fraudulent, and nearly 80% say his declaration of martial law was legitimate.
    https://www.sisajournal.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=320203
  • Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    What Lord Hannan famously called “BBC Diversity - people who might look different but all think exactly the same”.

    tlg86 said:

    BBC diversity: everyone looks different but thinks the same.

    PB Diversity. Everyone posts the same quote...
    When people moan about the lack of diversity of opinion on the BBC, what is really annoying them is that the BBC won't give their own batshit ideas the same prominence as the general consensus. Lord Hannan is very much a case in point.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    On topic

    Good header.

    Most countries have some form of national curriculum. It kinda goes with national exams.

    Which countries have the least insane curriculum?

    The honest answer is I have no idea.

    But just because we have exams doesn't mean we need a prescriptive national curriculum underpinning them.

    To take one (admittedly extreme) example, I taught History using this exam board:

    https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/history/gcse/history-8145/specification

    There are 140 different combinations there that can lead to a GCSE. I carefully chose ones that represented the best blend of my own knowledge and interests and what would be of interest to the children. Then, with the other teachers, we walked back matching our teaching from Year 3 (this was a private school) to what would build them up to this curriculum while still allowing loads of room for fun stuff along the way.

    The result bore not the slightest resemblance to Gove's curriculum (we never even mentioned Magna Carta or the Civil War) but it was fantastically successful. It was varied, it was interesting, and it was a genuinely worldwide curriculum that covered every continent except South America.

    And - it was very closely aligned to what the children wanted to know about.

    There's every reason to say certain subjects need to be taught. No quarrel with saying there needs to be Maths, English, PE, RSE, sport etc. But to have prescriptive topics within that subject is a bad idea. It's stifling and damaging.

    And that's what (as @Foxy rightly notes) Thatcher intended, Blair made worse and Labour seem to intend again.

    To his credit, Gove understood that this wasn't a good idea, but the cynical and partial way he went about trying to remove it has, ultimately, proved self-defeating.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,839
    Farage could do a lot worse than get Ar Tommeh inside the Fukker majlis. Hartlepool would probably vote for him as MP. 70%+ of them voted for brexit, for fuck's sake, so they are up for whatever.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
    It wouldn't be surprised if Musk continues to pick out individual MPs he hates some Thomas Mair character might act on it. It has happened before. This is one of the reasons I believe Badenoch is unwise to jump onto every passing Musk bandwagon. How long before she starts demanding to "free the Yaxley-Lennon one"?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    Dura_Ace said:

    Farage could do a lot worse than get Ar Tommeh inside the Fukker majlis. Hartlepool would probably vote for him as MP. 70%+ of them voted for brexit, for fuck's sake, so they are up for whatever.

    Even Farage is intelligent enough to know that being anywhere near “Tommy” cuts his support in half.

    It’s one thing to be ‘none of the above’, but very different to be hanging around with a bunch of mostly very racist thugs.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    You're having a bit of an ad hom streak recently, Roger.

    My wife was a primary teacher for a couple of decades, and I was a school governor for about half that time.

    What little knowledge I have tends to confirm @ydoethur 's judgments.
    I know nothing about the subject. I never even went to University. I've been invited to a few to share what scant knowledge I have about a specific subject and that's all. It really wasn't meant as a criticism I was just curious. Most lecturers I know seem to have stayed at the same place forever
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    It's becoming their dna
    It's in their DNA, but it's thoroughly unbecoming.
    There's an interim report in 2026 so possible something will happen but I very much doubt it.

    I far more involved in the social care system than I would like to be, to say the least.

    This will be an exercise in spending three or four years gathering evidence of what everyone already knows i.e. social care is on its knees, and then any attempt at finding a way to fund it going forward will be conveniently kicked until past the 2029 GE when it will now likely be Farage's problem.

    :rage:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.
    Thanks for that reply, makes a lot of sense.

    For me, my comp and sixth form college turned me into an exam killing machine (shouldn’t complain about that!) but failed me badly in terms of what to do with that after 18.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,204
    edited January 3
    Jonathan said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
    Dipping into PB and politics rarely at the moment provides all sorts of fresh perspectives. The intensity of the right wing online digital debate is mind boggling. It’s a bubbling cauldron. Feels quite dangerous, potentially all consuming and cult like . The astute politician and punter needs to be careful about how deep into it they go.
    There's no serious elections for four years either here or in the US and no all-consuming crises or issues like the GFC, Brexit or the pandemic so people online are pretty obviously looking for things to get outraged about. And the cash for clicks industry is of course doing its best to oblige. It's not just a right-wing thing - there's plenty of it on the left too.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    It's becoming their dna
    It's in their DNA, but it's thoroughly unbecoming.
    There's an interim report in 2026 so possible something will happen but I very much doubt it.

    I far more involved in the social care system than I would like to be, to say the least.

    This will be an exercise in spending three or four years gathering evidence of what everyone already knows i.e. social care is on its knees, and then any attempt at finding a way to fund it going forward will be conveniently kicked until past the 2029 GE when it will now likely be Farage's problem.

    :rage:
    Significant extra funding has and is already being offered

    If course it doesn't support some media to reflect that fact
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    Nigelb said:

    The impeached president's party in S Korea is displaying the same kind of denial that we've seen in the US.

    Two thirds of its supporters believe the last parliamentary election (which they unsurprisingly lost badly) was fraudulent, and nearly 80% say his declaration of martial law was legitimate.
    https://www.sisajournal.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=320203

    Investigators fail to detain president after prolonged standoff
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=389668
    Investigators at the Corruption Investigation Office for High-Ranking Officials (CIO) called off their attempt to detain President Yoon Suk Yeol, Friday, after hours of confrontation with security service staff and thousands of his supporters, who tried to block their efforts.

    Citing safety concerns amid rising tensions, the CIO called off its plan to enforce a court warrant to detain Yoon for his brief imposition of martial law last month.

    "We halted the enforcement of the arrest warrant at around 1:30 p.m. due to safety concerns, as it seemed impossible to carry it out amid the confrontation," the CIO stated in a release shortly after retreating. "Follow-up plans will be decided after review. We express serious regret over the suspect's refusal to comply with legally established procedures."

    The deadline for the warrant is Monday, putting the CIO in a difficult position as it must decide whether to make another attempt, amid the risk of violent clashes with the defiant president and his supporters...


    The situation is extremely volatile.

    Six of the (now) eight constitutional court members need to confirm his impeachment, or it fails.
    At which point another coup attempt is far from impossible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.

    There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end.


    This.

    I sent my youngest to a primary where the head’s philosophy was precisely against this.

    Because my eldest daughter had got bored in lessons - finish the work early, nothing to do…
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,763
    ydoethur said:

    On topic

    Good header.

    Most countries have some form of national curriculum. It kinda goes with national exams.

    Which countries have the least insane curriculum?

    The honest answer is I have no idea.

    But just because we have exams doesn't mean we need a prescriptive national curriculum underpinning them.

    To take one (admittedly extreme) example, I taught History using this exam board:

    https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/history/gcse/history-8145/specification

    There are 140 different combinations there that can lead to a GCSE. I carefully chose ones that represented the best blend of my own knowledge and interests and what would be of interest to the children. Then, with the other teachers, we walked back matching our teaching from Year 3 (this was a private school) to what would build them up to this curriculum while still allowing loads of room for fun stuff along the way.

    The result bore not the slightest resemblance to Gove's curriculum (we never even mentioned Magna Carta or the Civil War) but it was fantastically successful. It was varied, it was interesting, and it was a genuinely worldwide curriculum that covered every continent except South America.

    And - it was very closely aligned to what the children wanted to know about.

    There's every reason to say certain subjects need to be taught. No quarrel with saying there needs to be Maths, English, PE, RSE, sport etc. But to have prescriptive topics within that subject is a bad idea. It's stifling and damaging.

    And that's what (as @Foxy rightly notes) Thatcher intended, Blair made worse and Labour seem to intend again.

    To his credit, Gove understood that this wasn't a good idea, but the cynical and partial way he went about trying to remove it has, ultimately, proved self-defeating.
    Interesting. I remember working with a teacher some time ago now - about 1996? - about some stuff my employer wanted done for schools. The subject of the differences between the then curricula in England (and Wales I think) and Scotland (5-14 Curriculum I think it was called) came up and I remember her commenting that the Scottish one was much less prescriptive in terms of actual examples than the E&W one, so long as the basic concepts and ideas were covered for such things as a demonstration of archaeological evidence and its use in history. The example she adduced was an insistence on Egyptian mummies (IIRC, or Romans or whatever it was), whereas the Scots were much more relaxed about leaving the choice to the teacher. One very important reason was the need to use what was actually to hand. The flexibility made huge sense when a school trip to the nearest museum with a mummy might be 200+ miles away, involving a ferry ride - so just use the local Orkney megalith builder or Viking remains instead ...

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    Another excellent piece, @ydoethur - I always learn something from reading them.

    It would be nice if governments left education alone, let a thousand flowers grow and then let parents choose an education and school that works for them but, sadly, the ideology in the sector is beaten only by that in health.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    On topic

    Good header.

    Most countries have some form of national curriculum. It kinda goes with national exams.

    Which countries have the least insane curriculum?

    The honest answer is I have no idea.

    But just because we have exams doesn't mean we need a prescriptive national curriculum underpinning them.

    To take one (admittedly extreme) example, I taught History using this exam board:

    https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/history/gcse/history-8145/specification

    There are 140 different combinations there that can lead to a GCSE. I carefully chose ones that represented the best blend of my own knowledge and interests and what would be of interest to the children. Then, with the other teachers, we walked back matching our teaching from Year 3 (this was a private school) to what would build them up to this curriculum while still allowing loads of room for fun stuff along the way.

    The result bore not the slightest resemblance to Gove's curriculum (we never even mentioned Magna Carta or the Civil War) but it was fantastically successful. It was varied, it was interesting, and it was a genuinely worldwide curriculum that covered every continent except South America.

    And - it was very closely aligned to what the children wanted to know about.

    There's every reason to say certain subjects need to be taught. No quarrel with saying there needs to be Maths, English, PE, RSE, sport etc. But to have prescriptive topics within that subject is a bad idea. It's stifling and damaging.

    And that's what (as @Foxy rightly notes) Thatcher intended, Blair made worse and Labour seem to intend again.

    To his credit, Gove understood that this wasn't a good idea, but the cynical and partial way he went about trying to remove it has, ultimately, proved self-defeating.
    Interesting. I remember working with a teacher some time ago now - about 1996? - about some stuff my employer wanted done for schools. The subject of the differences between the then curricula in England (and Wales I think) and Scotland (5-14 Curriculum I think it was called) came up and I remember her commenting that the Scottish one was much less prescriptive in terms of actual examples than the E&W one, so long as the basic concepts and ideas were covered for such things as a demonstration of archaeological evidence and its use in history. The example she adduced was an insistence on Egyptian mummies (IIRC, or Romans or whatever it was), whereas the Scots were much more relaxed about leaving the choice to the teacher. One very important reason was the need to use what was actually to hand. The flexibility made huge sense when a school trip to the nearest museum with a mummy might be 200+ miles away, involving a ferry ride - so just use the local Orkney megalith builder or Viking remains instead ...

    Now that is a sensible approach.

    From all I hear, it's not quite the same now (although I only really hear rumours) but it's what would work if we had a centre willing to let go.

    To give a different example in England, one exam board for History has all of its GCSE historic sites and therefore trip opportunities in London. Why? Because all the people writing the course lived in London...

    We went with AQA instead, which picked sites all over the country and sent us a list of similar alternatives we could visit if we wished. Which, being north of Birmingham, was fantastic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    You're having a bit of an ad hom streak recently, Roger.

    My wife was a primary teacher for a couple of decades, and I was a school governor for about half that time.

    What little knowledge I have tends to confirm @ydoethur 's judgments.
    I know nothing about the subject. I never even went to University. I've been invited to a few to share what scant knowledge I have about a specific subject and that's all. It really wasn't meant as a criticism I was just curious. Most lecturers I know seem to have stayed at the same place forever
    I imagine that most of them are quite elderly?

    Until the mid 90s it was usual as an academic to walk into a job and stay there.

    That is no longer the case. The pace is hotter, the rewards are less, and permanent contracts are handed out rather reluctantly. Also, following Gove's reform to Russell Group many permanent contracts have turned out to be very impermanent. So most of my former colleagues have taught in several more than that - I can think of one who's on his fourth university and another who's on his fifth.

    In teaching, it isn't seen as great for career progression to stay on one school. You are generally expected, to advance to SLT, to have taught in at least two and most of them quite like three. This is based on the belief that it widens your perspective and allows you to be more innovative (which may be true). The old days of starting as a rookie and advancing to Head all within the same school have largely disappeared.
    In IT (and much of banking), staying more than 3-5 years is seen as career rot. Because of a stupid culture of internal non-promotion, if you stay in the same place, largely. So everyone moves. You often see zig-zagging - people leave and come back, jumping 3 places on the ladder.

    So someone starting out now, looking at a career from 25 to 75, is looking at 10-15 jobs.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,763
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.
    Hm! Friend of mine went to a HHMC school, and has just put his children through it - very expensive, though not Eton. I was struck by his comment that in his day the masters pushed the bright boys hard and got good Oxbridge etc results. But in his children's time the masters focussed on the lower ability children and producing value for money for their parents. Different times, different metrics!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    It quite surprising that Farage, alongside other well-known-in-America British commentators on the child abuse issue such as Konstantin Kisin and JK Rowling, haven’t been all over Twitter in the last 48 hours saying they want nothing to do with “Tommy” and that he belongs in prison.

    “Tommy” appears to have something of an American fan club, his supporters have done an apparently good job of getting his name known over there as someone who stands up for free speech, as opposed to someone who has nearly caused a number of trials to be abandoned and is in prison for disobeying a court order to stop libelling people.
    When the Civil Disobedience that Musk and Robinson clearly want to reoccur occurs, Farage (as before with his deliberate and calculted intervention) and now Badenoch with her fatal error of judgement in going against not only her recently departed Government policy, which Labout is only enacting) will be tainted with the fact that they are complicit in stoking up the tension.

    If it turns in to a "civil war" of kind on the streets of our Towns and Cities and our Properties; Cultures , Emergency Services and actual fabric of our democracy is put under threat, where does she think (I discount Farage as he is 100% a political opportunist that is his sole policy) that is going to leave her in the eyes of the vast majority of Public Opinion.

    THE UK at WAR, and this will be a war, have absolutly no doubt has an inbuilt tendency to support the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Government - whether they are popular or NOT....All she will do is to turn the Tory Party in to Reform / Fascist Light!

    The moderate One Nation wing of the Tory Party will 100% no doubt split and seek to take her and her zealots down!

    The Mail / Telegraph / Express will revert to type and support the Fascists and we are potentially looking at this Country being targetted and attacked as never before from MAGA / MUSK and trojan horses and Traitors within....

    Starmer showed real leadership and balls in August and can do so again.

    His first move should be to speak to the Germans and French - equally threatened by Musk and to formulate a plan to neuter him!
    You've got the beginning of a film script there. I sort of agree that we need to sever our ties with the US as much as possible because for the next 4 years they're going to be unstable and to that end we need to team up with Europe again.

    My only concern is how solid is Starmer. As you say he was excellent against the fascist riots-his biggest achievement- but whether he has a vision of the wider picture I'm not sure. The next few months will tell.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.
    Hm! Friend of mine went to a HHMC school, and has just put his children through it - very expensive, though not Eton. I was struck by his comment that in his day the masters pushed the bright boys hard and got good Oxbridge etc results. But in his children's time the masters focussed on the lower ability children and producing value for money for their parents. Different times, different metrics!
    Again, league tables. If you don't show passes in key subjects as a private school, you don't attract children.

    Ironically, if you don't get numbers into Oxbridge it hurts you in the international market.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374
    MJW said:

    MJW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MJW said:

    Very awkward for Badenoch, calling for an inquiry when those who ran the previous inquiries your government commissioned into the same thing are accusing your government of failing to act on their recommendations.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/02/ex-chief-prosecutor-rejects-musks-calls-for-new-child-abuse-inquiry

    Well, just because the Tories did the wrong thing for 14 years doesn't mean they can't do the right thing now.

    An inquiry into what has gone on with these grooming gangs should be beyond party and I'm very surprised that Labour is so adamant there shouldn't be one....
    It's not that there 'shouldn't be one' - it's that we've already had several, whose recommendations are yet to be fully implemented. And inquiries, done properly can take an absolute age and cost tens, in one case hundreds of millions of pounds.

    This would very much be at the more complex end given if we just count the police forces and councils already criticised in previous inquiries or reports, that's already several. Before we get to other allegations that might be made about failures to tackle abuse to see their merit. It would have to hear from thousands of individuals, and the Maxwellisation process would be something to behold.

    If we're doing that then we could be waiting another decade for its conclusions, which may well end up saying the same thing as the ones we've conducted already. And of course like most inquiries, if it doesn't say the explicit thing those loudly calling for it want it to say (and these things usually don't as even when scathing are careful with their words) - it'll be rejected by them as a whitewash.

    So if you've already had previous (damning) inquiries and reports which the previous government didn't act on. Then it's on those to explain why the previous policy of local inquiries should be changed, past reports should be thrown in the bin and start up a process that's going to be very long, gruelling with no guarantee it'll give you the answers you want.

    If it's because one can point to real flaws in the methodology and conclusions of the past inquiries and reports, fine. If it's "because Elon Musk is mouthing off about it online", it's a chance to bash the government, and you're worried by being outflanked by the far right's ability to say things without having to follow through on consequences, then that's not really serious or useful.

    I don't think I've heard Badenoch make the former case, and if so why her views have suddenly changed from previous policy.
    So in simple PLAIN ENGLISH that even the Reform boneheads and Kemi can understand the situation is this.

    These issues were disgusting and widespread but not restricted to Muslim Communities

    That various Enquiries were set up, reported, recommendations made and implemented and significant progress in some cases made, but also not fully implemented and loose ends in others.

    The Conservative Government 2010 - 2024 (with LD's to 2015) decided in 2022 that REGIONAL investigations and reporting was the way to go. Kemi Badenoch and all then Tory MP's backed this.

    SKS as DoPP was respected by the then Tory Government on his departure from DoPP as having made significant progress in dealing with the issue and raising it's profile and implementing change.

    In October 2024 the new Junior Minister Jess Phillips routinely decided in answer to a quetion in the HoC and also in terms on Labour Government POlicy to IMPLEMENT and CONTINUE Tory Governments Guidelines as voted on in the HoC

    There are / were NO MANIFESTO commitments on this on either side to change the status quo.

    EARLIER THIS WEEK GB News attacked the Phillips decision retrospectively!!!!!!

    MUSK decided to attack Starmer for his role as DoPP , called for Jess Phillips to be imprisoned and Tommy Robinson to be released.

    Kemi Badenoch decided to jump on the bandwagon

    MUSK who has associations to Jeffrey Epstein and Gisela Maxwell turns it in to a further attack on our democratically elected Government and it's policies and by definition and fact the policies of the previous Conservative Government of which Badenoch, Philip and others were Members

    ----

    So it you support Musk, Farage , Trump and Tommy Robinson and want to instigate Riots again and Civil Disobedience that aim is clear - an unadulterated attempt to destroy the elected UK Govenment

    If like Badenoch you completely go against your Governments Policy on this, you are complicit in supporting Musk, Farage , Trump and Tommy Robinson

    If like Starmer and Labour you stand up to Musk, Farage , Trump and Tommy Robinson - I suspect that you will be backed and supported to the vast majority of the UK population who wish to deal with THE ISSUE and not the politics and to actually DEFEND UK democracy.

    It strikes me sadly that MUSK wants Civil War and Mass disobedience on the streets of the major European and American Cities to foster his own sick and depraived mind.

    MUSK must be stopped and those complicit in supporting him must be STOPPED and every Legal means by Police and Judiciary should be mobilised NOW to start that process around the Globe.

    He is a massive danger to democratically elected longstanding Western democracies.

    Good morning

    The problem is no.matter how much you 'shout' about Musk he is not going away and it is likely to accelerate post Trump's inauguration

    The big question in politics today is just how public opinion views Musks interventions, and how much it affects Farage and Reform

    As far as Kemi is concerned she has to distance herself from Farage, but also focus on attacking this highly unpopular Labour government that saw 20 of its councillors defect yesterday in disgust at the leadership of Labour
    FPT, we more or less know the answer to this big question. It isn't, therefore much of a question. Musk is spectacularly unpopular.

    Here's the YouGov figures after his riots stupidity. https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50340-elon-musks-favourability-remains-unchanged-after-the-riots-but-xs-reputation-continues-to-decline

    Now you might argue his interventions would improve his standing but it seems vanishingly unlikely given the ham-fisted, moronic nature of them. Popular with Robinson and his goons maybe, who themselves are among the most hated people in Britain. I think it unlikely them having a cringeworthy billionaire fanboy going through some kind of mental meltdown and getting dangerously close to going full neo-Nazi is changing these things.

    As for 20 Labour councillors defecting, you'd rather they didn't - but isn't it a typical internal Labour row about who gets to stand? Not a happy party, but not the disaster you're making out.
    The thing about Musk is he is an individual. He has no Party or infrastructure being him. He's latched on to MAGA for now.

    He's latching on the extreme Right Political and non political Groups across Europe.

    He can therefore as a cult be made to go away.

    Simple economic sanctioning of all of his businesses and social media

    Banning him from EU and UK

    If he continues to be a threat then add him to the sort of list Bin Laden was on.

    I'd argue he increasingly poses a greater threat to Western Democracy than Bin Laden

    He is a like a rampant cancer, western democracy is the body and have no doubt he can ravage it.

    Don't define him by nationality, religion, political extremity. Classify him by what he is... A one man global threat poisoning minds
  • algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    Good, the Dilnot report is an utter waste of money, more about protecting people's inheritances than ensuring that people get good care.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    To say I'm disappointed with this Government would be the understatement of the century.
    The last government had to go.

    I think many expected a short period of honest and competent government from this one, but it seems they expected too much.

    WRT the header, I expect plenty in authority see nothing problematic with paying teenagers for sex.
    I'd say it's more that Diversity is a religion they see as essential to be preached and its lessons to be imbibed throughout every single aspect of the curriculum. The unwritten hope is that future generations of children back their politics as a result.

    Of course, this isn't true, and actually risks a backlash that could set liberalism backwards, but they're either too far gone to see that or don't care because this is really about ingratiating themselves with their peers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.

    There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end.


    This.

    I sent my youngest to a primary where the head’s philosophy was precisely against this.

    Because my eldest daughter had got bored in lessons - finish the work early, nothing to do…
    The risk is, of course, that it leads to behavioural issues that then sets their education and development back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Teaching at three universities and four schools.......

    Is that a lot? i used to do guest lecturing which would have given me numbers like that though occupying just a few days a year. If yours was full time did you have problems holding down your jobs?

    You're having a bit of an ad hom streak recently, Roger.

    My wife was a primary teacher for a couple of decades, and I was a school governor for about half that time.

    What little knowledge I have tends to confirm @ydoethur 's judgments.
    I know nothing about the subject. I never even went to University. I've been invited to a few to share what scant knowledge I have about a specific subject and that's all. It really wasn't meant as a criticism I was just curious. Most lecturers I know seem to have stayed at the same place forever
    I imagine that most of them are quite elderly?

    Until the mid 90s it was usual as an academic to walk into a job and stay there.

    That is no longer the case. The pace is hotter, the rewards are less, and permanent contracts are handed out rather reluctantly. Also, following Gove's reform to Russell Group many permanent contracts have turned out to be very impermanent. So most of my former colleagues have taught in several more than that - I can think of one who's on his fourth university and another who's on his fifth.

    In teaching, it isn't seen as great for career progression to stay on one school. You are generally expected, to advance to SLT, to have taught in at least two and most of them quite like three. This is based on the belief that it widens your perspective and allows you to be more innovative (which may be true). The old days of starting as a rookie and advancing to Head all within the same school have largely disappeared.
    A decade back I was one of the interview panel who selected such a candidate as the new Head.
    It was indeed put as an argument against their selection; I argued we should be appointing the best candidate.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Equally someone leaving school being able to read and write basic English when they were fully illiterate at 14. I think that is more impressive and more valuable to society than converting three As into three A*s.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059

    Sandpit said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    It quite surprising that Farage, alongside other well-known-in-America British commentators on the child abuse issue such as Konstantin Kisin and JK Rowling, haven’t been all over Twitter in the last 48 hours saying they want nothing to do with “Tommy” and that he belongs in prison.

    “Tommy” appears to have something of an American fan club, his supporters have done an apparently good job of getting his name known over there as someone who stands up for free speech, as opposed to someone who has nearly caused a number of trials to be abandoned and is in prison for disobeying a court order to stop libelling people.
    When the Civil Disobedience that Musk and Robinson clearly want to reoccur occurs, Farage (as before with his deliberate and calculted intervention) and now Badenoch with her fatal error of judgement in going against not only her recently departed Government policy, which Labout is only enacting) will be tainted with the fact that they are complicit in stoking up the tension.

    If it turns in to a "civil war" of kind on the streets of our Towns and Cities and our Properties; Cultures , Emergency Services and actual fabric of our democracy is put under threat, where does she think (I discount Farage as he is 100% a political opportunist that is his sole policy) that is going to leave her in the eyes of the vast majority of Public Opinion.

    THE UK at WAR, and this will be a war, have absolutly no doubt has an inbuilt tendency to support the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Government - whether they are popular or NOT....All she will do is to turn the Tory Party in to Reform / Fascist Light!

    The moderate One Nation wing of the Tory Party will 100% no doubt split and seek to take her and her zealots down!

    The Mail / Telegraph / Express will revert to type and support the Fascists and we are potentially looking at this Country being targetted and attacked as never before from MAGA / MUSK and trojan horses and Traitors within....

    Starmer showed real leadership and balls in August and can do so again.

    His first move should be to speak to the Germans and French - equally threatened by Musk and to formulate a plan to neuter him!
    The way to neuter Musk is to be a competent government and unfortunately this government is falling a long way short

    Your comment on the Telegraph is particularly inept, in view of their headline warning to Farage this morning of not associating with Tommy Robinson as previously referred to

    Kemi has already taken on Farage and will distance herself from the hard right
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.
    Thanks for that reply, makes a lot of sense.

    For me, my comp and sixth form college turned me into an exam killing machine (shouldn’t complain about that!) but failed me badly in terms of what to do with that after 18.
    It doesn't set you especially well up for life.

    I learned that success was purely academic, and based on passing exams, only to learn- to my horror- it was actually about people skills, which nobody ever taught me.

    And they still don't.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,382

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
    It wouldn't be surprised if Musk continues to pick out individual MPs he hates some Thomas Mair character might act on it. It has happened before. This is one of the reasons I believe Badenoch is unwise to jump onto every passing Musk bandwagon. How long before she starts demanding to "free the Yaxley-Lennon one"?
    Even on here, as I have previously noted, people I thought of as fairly sober but solidly right wrong posters, those who now go on every single day about how crap Labour are in every tiniest respect, jumped in very willingly during the riots with two tier Keir and more than that direct echoing of the lies of actual neo-Nazis to politically point score. After the first 5 weeks of going on about how crap Labour were in every tiniest respect before they'd actually done anything.

    Now PB Tories are a rump of what they once were, but as a grouping most of them now mirror the Corbynites - their hatred of Labour is so blind, so total, that they deserve to be on Prevent's Brownshirt watch - not active neo-Nazis or anything like today but, come the brownshirt revolution, quite susceptible to falling into line.

    So, perhaps with these analytics, Musk is right and Farage is wrong -the basic rump right are already so far down the rabbit hole that his message will hit home.

    Terrible though Muslim bombers and this generation of care home abusers are, the Momentum of Labour haters led by Republican expulsionists is the clearest, most present danger to ripping asunder the fabric of British society and to my own and my family's life because they seek to become once more the establishment. They seek damage in a way that no dodgy Labour tax rise can hope to replicate.

    Yes, the greatest threat to British society now is not Muslim suicide bombers but PB Tories.

    I try not to be a Tory hater, I have little trick with the Fatchtarati, and I am massively saddened to come to the point where I'm concluding this.





  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,861
    Good morning everyone.

    One of the basic problems when discussing education is that everyone has been to school and therefore everyone has a view. That might not be so bad, but it's exacerbated by the fact that 'everyone', apart of course from teachers, has only one experience of education, their own, and this colours their view of both others, and their children's education.

    It's similar when discussing social care, for a different reason. Very few, especially of the great and good, opinion formers and so on, have any experience of social care, especially the lower end of the spectrum.

    The result in both cases is that there's a great deal of ill-informed comment on both subjects.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    Good, the Dilnot report is an utter waste of money, more about protecting people's inheritances than ensuring that people get good care.
    It's a bizarre logic to blame Labour for not implementing a 13 year old report that the Tories ignored.

    Let's persuade Labour to buy 13 year old Planes Ships, Missiles, scanners, nedecines, tarmac, concrete etc shall we.

    I mean it's only 13 years old it must be spot on up to date valid

    Fact is Labour are additionally funding minor parts of it and other on the shelf reports but completely understandably need to understand the bigger picture now not from 2011.

    Another fact Oppositions cannot fund or resource this kind of research in opposition so pureile comments about preparation are just that... Pathetic
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    13 years after the Dilnot report (2011) this government, instead of acting quickly, has pushed the matter back to reporting in 2028.

    Not to be prepared for decision and action on coming into government feels like a major fail for Labour.

    To say I'm disappointed with this Government would be the understatement of the century.
    The last government had to go.

    I think many expected a short period of honest and competent government from this one, but it seems they expected too much.

    WRT the header, I expect plenty in authority see nothing problematic with paying teenagers for sex.
    I'd say it's more that Diversity is a religion they see as essential to be preached and its lessons to be imbibed throughout every single aspect of the curriculum. The unwritten hope is that future generations of children back their politics as a result.

    Of course, this isn't true, and actually risks a backlash that could set liberalism backwards, but they're either too far gone to see that or don't care because this is really about ingratiating themselves with their peers.
    How many million young men just voted for Trump in the US? There’s your backlash right there.

    When ‘diversity’ moves from ‘treat everyone equally’, to ‘no white men allowed’ and ‘there are 45 genders our drag queens want to talk about with your toddler’, it’s not really surprising.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    @ydoethur thanks for the interesting articles. Have you considered getting out of education and doing something completely different?

    When I read your stuff you reminded me of my father who taught too long, fought the good fight too long and late in life discovered new joy and energy outside of teaching, exams etc.

    Just a thought. Life’s too short.

    Well, in effect I have. I now work for myself which gives me much more freedom, the chance to pick and choose what and when I teach (and from where) and actually pays rather better, although when you factor in pension that probably balances out (as whatever the unions say, the TPS is still a very good pension compared to most).

    That doesn't mean the stupidity and incompetence of what I see left behind me doesn't still exasperate me. What is especially frustrating is that we could have a much better education system if only the centre would stop doing so much damn meddling, which wouldn't even cost us any more money, and we never get it (part 3 is on this).

    I may, in a few years, go into a different sector entirely, and I've done some exploring of a couple of options. But the truth is as an intellectual exercise I actually really enjoy teaching and I am very good at it. My results consistently suggest I was among the top 1% of teachers in the country for value added, which tells me I was doing something right.

    But at the moment I'm pretty happy with where I am.

    And of course, I have complete freedom to snipe from the sidelines now.
    "Value added" should be the key measurement for educational success, but don't tell HY, only passing the 11 plus and A*s count..
    The flip side to that is - and I'd be interested in @ydoethur 's view on this - I'd imagine there's more scope for adding value in the middle of the pack.

    Comps focus on the percentage getting 5 A to Cs (or whatever it is now). And then we complain when the top jobs are dominated by the privately educated.
    Yes, that is true to an extent, although even at the top end there is scope for some. I used to teach in a girls' grammar where logically it should have been impossible to have high value added given their innate ability, but it actually had the highest value added of any school in the country.

    There are a few issues:

    1) There's a lazy belief (including among too many teachers, incidentally) that the top end don't need as much teaching as the lower end. Actually, my experience is the ablest need more, because they go much faster than everyone else. What they don't need is quite so much personal attention, which isn't the same thing at all.

    2) There is a lot of focus on the bottom end - which again is not illogical, as they need additional support - but a lot of it (and here I think is where your point comes in) is about getting them past exams rather than actual helping them become good at something.

    That is a function of our system and the way it's set up to pass exams and be defined by various league tables, which comes with major drawbacks.

    If I could think of an easy way of introducing a better system I would put it forward. But unfortunately there's no such thing as a perfect system. While our exams are poor (and reforms were horrendously botched) now they've bedded in a bit they are at least a consistent measure of what's happening.
    Thanks for that reply, makes a lot of sense.

    For me, my comp and sixth form college turned me into an exam killing machine (shouldn’t complain about that!) but failed me badly in terms of what to do with that after 18.
    It doesn't set you especially well up for life.

    I learned that success was purely academic, and based on passing exams, only to learn- to my horror- it was actually about people skills, which nobody ever taught me.

    And they still don't.
    One of the big worries I have about a new national curriculum is it may end up teaching solely to exams, which would make that particular problem even worse.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
    When has Farage ever advocated abolishing the NHS ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    edited January 3
    Pro_Rata said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
    It wouldn't be surprised if Musk continues to pick out individual MPs he hates some Thomas Mair character might act on it. It has happened before. This is one of the reasons I believe Badenoch is unwise to jump onto every passing Musk bandwagon. How long before she starts demanding to "free the Yaxley-Lennon one"?
    Even on here, as I have previously noted, people I thought of as fairly sober but solidly right wrong posters, those who now go on every single day about how crap Labour are in every tiniest respect, jumped in very willingly during the riots with two tier Keir and more than that direct echoing of the lies of actual neo-Nazis to politically point score. After the first 5 weeks of going on about how crap Labour were in every tiniest respect before they'd actually done anything...

    Great typo, containing much truth...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    Jonathan said:

    Talking of the Telegraph this headline poses the real question

    Why Musks love in with Tommy Robinson presents a problem for Farage

    Yup. I've thought that as well. All of the LABOUR ARE EVIL posts on there, WE NEED REFORM. And then a rapid pivot to FREE TOMMY ROBINSON complete with SYL looking less thuggish with a Lion and a smart suit superimposed over a flag and the white cliffs of Dover.

    Why does SYL hold such a thrall over some people? Because (a) there is a kernel of truth in his analysis before he pivoting off into "and the solution is deport the muslims", and (b) his presentation is just slick enough to enthral morons.

    Farage knows that offering up kernels of truth and then pivoting off into "lets abolish the NHS" will win a lot of votes. But he also knows that SYL and the other hardcore racists will lose him votes. And yet his boss President Musk just wants to agitate. How do you tell the new boss that he needs to be nuanced, when his movement is about rile up the mob and watch them tear it all down?
    Dipping into PB and politics rarely at the moment provides all sorts of fresh perspectives. The intensity of the right wing online digital debate is mind boggling. It’s a bubbling cauldron. Feels quite dangerous, potentially all consuming and cult like . The astute politician and punter needs to be careful about how deep into it they go.
    I think the key thing that sets Britain apart from many countries on the continent is that it's Farage leading a socially conservative insurgent party and not SYL leading a far-right racist one.

    Sometimes the two are conflated, but it's not true. Farage is a pub bore but not a fascist - he's terribly indisciplined, ranty, prickly, and disorganised - but he's not a fascist.

    It should be noted he doesn't agree with zero asylum claims or no immigration whatsoever, and he's ejected EDL and BNP people before.
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