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This poll is barking – politicalbetting.com

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  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    That is seriously clever politics
    Reform abolishing the licence fee might be clever politics. Reform axing Eastenders and Strictly is a less obvious vote-winner.
    People won't see it that way, will they? Reform will say It's up to the Beeb to fund itself, with ads or streaming and thus it's up to the Beeb if Enders or Strictly endure, and of course if the Beeb lets them go C4 or ITV can buy them and do them, anyway, as with Bake Off

    The argument that the BBC is some precious mass broadcaster is over, and the Beeb lost. Young people barely watch it

    This makes me sad. It's a great British soft power institution. I want it to survive and thrive. But it needs to adapt and fast, and frightening old ladies on Xmas Day is not a great look
    Focus on news and flog off the entertainment stuff may be the only way - it's easier to justify money for the former.
    Make it a subscription service, take it out of government control and form it into a mutual, owned by the subscribers. They could actually charge a market fee then and make some decent TV. And I'd have no problem with adverts.
    My long-standing view is that, from my perspective, the BBC licence fee is well worth it. I get more than my money's worth. But I understand that not everyone agrees, and that the media world that the BBC competes in is changing rapidly.

    The inability of the BBC and successive governments to understand these changes over the last three decades has doomed it. The one thing that I thought was still worth the BBC licence fee alone - documentaries - are increasingly being found on YouTube and elsewhere, in very professional forms. 'Amateur' production levels are getting increasingly professional.

    As a minor example, I'd give Part Time Explorer:

    https://www.youtube.com/@PartTimeExplorer
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    This is the letter that dropped through my door this week. Keep in mind I don't legally need a TV licence and have done nothing wrong.



    I don't think people who have a TV licence realise the torrent of threats the BBC pours out to people who don't need one. Dozens of letters like this or worse every year, and there's no way of stopping them other than buying a licence (filling in the "I don't need a licence" form only pauses the letters).

    If I, as a private individual or in the course of normal business, sent a stream of letters like this to someone I'd expect a visit from the plod in short order. It's legal intimidation and yes, very smart politics to highlight it.
    I dont need a licence either and people ask why I just don't tell them and there are two reasons

    1) It only briefly stops the demand
    2) I am happy for them to waste their money writing and visiting me its amusing
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    CHart said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    Mind you many ordinary people in the west i speak to dont seem to want democracy anymore either.
    That's why the billionaires will win. The ordinary people here should perhaps speak to the ordinary people in Russia, Syria or North Korea first.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807
    I'm in favour of evolving the BBC away from being funded by the licence fee and toward a shareholder type model where your licence fee could become a dividend if the BBC does well.

    But I am in favour of retaining public ownership for the time being.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    I suspect it would have gone given AI within 20-50 years anyway but that path is being unnecessarily accelerated.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053

    Leon said:

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    That is seriously clever politics
    Reform abolishing the licence fee might be clever politics. Reform axing Eastenders and Strictly is a less obvious vote-winner.
    It would win my vote.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    Trump's campaign guy is called Chris LaCivita, who interestingly was the puff-merchant behind the Swift Boat Veterans astroturf campaign against John Kerry around 2004. I'd compare him at first sight to Charles Colson in Watergate: the hatchet man.

    He was also active in blaming Trump for the attempted insurrection:
    https://archive.is/20241023203244/https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-campaign-manager-chris-lacivita-shared-tweets-blaming-him-for-jan-6-riot/
    (Then deleted it all.)

    I trust Lord Mandelbrot will have taken advice from the previous Ambassadrice, and is intelligent enough to absorb it.

    But it's a positive to see that he starts from a correct evaluation of Trump :wink: , and now needs to do a Lammy.
  • CHartCHart Posts: 51
    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    This man did well out of democracy.

    Two Chinese Students come across Rishi Sunak now living the good life in Santa Monica


    https://x.com/kunley_drukpa/status/1870054757311623644
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    edited December 20

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    That is seriously clever politics
    Reform abolishing the licence fee might be clever politics. Reform axing Eastenders and Strictly is a less obvious vote-winner.
    People won't see it that way, will they? Reform will say It's up to the Beeb to fund itself, with ads or streaming and thus it's up to the Beeb if Enders or Strictly endure, and of course if the Beeb lets them go C4 or ITV can buy them and do them, anyway, as with Bake Off

    The argument that the BBC is some precious mass broadcaster is over, and the Beeb lost. Young people barely watch it

    This makes me sad. It's a great British soft power institution. I want it to survive and thrive. But it needs to adapt and fast, and frightening old ladies on Xmas Day is not a great look
    Focus on news and flog off the entertainment stuff may be the only way - it's easier to justify money for the former.
    Make it a subscription service, take it out of government control and form it into a mutual, owned by the subscribers. They could actually charge a market fee then and make some decent TV. And I'd have no problem with adverts.
    My long-standing view is that, from my perspective, the BBC licence fee is well worth it. I get more than my money's worth. But I understand that not everyone agrees, and that the media world that the BBC competes in is changing rapidly.

    The inability of the BBC and successive governments to understand these changes over the last three decades has doomed it. The one thing that I thought was still worth the BBC licence fee alone - documentaries - are increasingly being found on YouTube and elsewhere, in very professional forms. 'Amateur' production levels are getting increasingly professional.

    As a minor example, I'd give Part Time Explorer:

    https://www.youtube.com/@PartTimeExplorer
    One of the serious problems for the media is that amateur writing and analysis is often better than the professionals, though you do need to be selective. PB for politics and current affairs and Letterboxd for movie reviews are simply superior to the paid for alternatives.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    While I am with churchill that democracy is crap but better than all the other things the human race has tried....it is hard to argue that democracy is working for most people in the west who are seeing their living standards get lower every year. Sometimes I wonder how many who post here actually appreciate how hand to mouth the bottom 70% of the country are living
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Leon said:

    Nearly finished a week of doing my taxes. Just a couple of hours needed now, after Christmas

    What gets me REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY QUITE RESENTFUL is the fact that: if I am a day late filing my returns, I get INSTANTLY fined. But HMRC, all working from home, are now taking A YEAR to process Tax Exemption forms, despite multiple calls, and feeble promises, thereby costing me serious money

    Utter state of this country

    If you didn't earn any money, you wouldn't have this problem.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    CHart said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    This man did well out of democracy.

    Two Chinese Students come across Rishi Sunak now living the good life in Santa Monica


    https://x.com/kunley_drukpa/status/1870054757311623644
    I think he got the place in California by marrying well rather than politics.

    Everyone is entitled to some time off.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,080
    Another Sheffield Lib Dem in the Lords. Shaffaq Mohammed joins Lord Allan (2010) and Lord Scriven (2014).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Poodle is one of the better answers - gives the poll the seriousness it deserves.

    Given how well Denmark is doing in supporting Ukraine I would give my vote to a Great Dane.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    That is seriously clever politics
    Reform abolishing the licence fee might be clever politics. Reform axing Eastenders and Strictly is a less obvious vote-winner.
    People won't see it that way, will they? Reform will say It's up to the Beeb to fund itself, with ads or streaming and thus it's up to the Beeb if Enders or Strictly endure, and of course if the Beeb lets them go C4 or ITV can buy them and do them, anyway, as with Bake Off

    The argument that the BBC is some precious mass broadcaster is over, and the Beeb lost. Young people barely watch it

    This makes me sad. It's a great British soft power institution. I want it to survive and thrive. But it needs to adapt and fast, and frightening old ladies on Xmas Day is not a great look
    Focus on news and flog off the entertainment stuff may be the only way - it's easier to justify money for the former.
    Make it a subscription service, take it out of government control and form it into a mutual, owned by the subscribers. They could actually charge a market fee then and make some decent TV. And I'd have no problem with adverts.
    My long-standing view is that, from my perspective, the BBC licence fee is well worth it. I get more than my money's worth. But I understand that not everyone agrees, and that the media world that the BBC competes in is changing rapidly.

    The inability of the BBC and successive governments to understand these changes over the last three decades has doomed it. The one thing that I thought was still worth the BBC licence fee alone - documentaries - are increasingly being found on YouTube and elsewhere, in very professional forms. 'Amateur' production levels are getting increasingly professional.

    As a minor example, I'd give Part Time Explorer:

    https://www.youtube.com/@PartTimeExplorer
    One of the serious problems for the media is that amateur writing and analysis is often better than the professionals, though you do need to be selective. PB for politics and current affairs and Letterboxd for movie reviews are simply superior to the paid for alternatives.
    But the other issue is that the good amateurs can cover many more and varied stories than the 'mainstream' media. Take Part Time Explorer. My son asked me about the Marie Celeste, so I looked for a non-conspiracy documentary and came across his video on it. It was really excellent, particularly in not trying to put forward any individual theory on what happened. We then watched more of his videos. Some have excellently-produced graphics. Others, like exploring abandoned towns in the USA, are fascinating in the anonymous nature of the places.

    Yes, if you threw BBC-sized budgets at him you would get 'better' videos from a production viewpoint. But you would also get fewer of them.

    And there are many more examples of channels that get the balance between quantity and quality of content just about right.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    edited December 20

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Why are there no sighthounds on the list? What a travesty!

    If it weren't that they are a little too European, the Portuguese Podengo Pequeno is an excellent choice amongst sighthounds. Intelligent, good-natured,watchful, expressive, clean and great with children. A foe of rats and bushy tailed tree rats.

    I just happen to have one myself:


    Note the other creature in the image is an English short-hair tom-cat, and mostly tolerant of his step sibling.
    Why have you got Kinabalu's cat?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    It's the Spectator. The most accurate article they've published recently was about a Cambridge prostitute... ;)
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    edited December 20

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    Though will be fine if germany decides to no doubt as has been proposed

    https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/german-cdu-considers-leaving-european-convention-on-human-rights/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited December 20
    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    Funny that the Lib Dems literally campaigned to Revoke democracy, ie the Brexit referendum, and most of the Left wanted to annul democracy, by not enacting Brexit and having a 2nd vote to reverse it without even implementing it, ie telling the voters they don't count

    Didn't see many lefties and Lib Dems "missing democracy" back then
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    Funny that the Lib Dems literally campaigned to Revoke democracy, ie the Brexit referendum, and most of the Left wanted to annul democracy, by not enacting Brexit and having a 2nd vote to reverse it without even implementing it, ie telling the voters they don't count

    Didn't see many lefties and Lib Dems "missing democracy" back then
    Don't forget shecorns missive here advocating a grand coalition to keep out reform if they polled most
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,125
    edited December 20

    Sky

    Breaking

    On Mandelsons appointment Trump's spokesperson says he is an 'absolute moron' !!!!!

    Trump's ex-spokesperson, assuming he was referring to Trump.
    It was directed at Mandelsons appointment and not the best observation at the start of his UK Ambassador role to US
    I think it was a great idea.

    An ageing, prickly, thin-skinned cheat obsessed by image and ostentation who exaggerates his social standing and annoys everybody he meets ...

    ... as envoy to the similar US President.

    A match made in heaven, surely?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    How much does it cost to keep her in jail about 50k? over 20 years thats a million how many free school meals a year would it pay for?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    Funny that the Lib Dems literally campaigned to Revoke democracy, ie the Brexit referendum, and most of the Left wanted to annul democracy, by not enacting Brexit and having a 2nd vote to reverse it without even implementing it, ie telling the voters they don't count

    Didn't see many lefties and Lib Dems "missing democracy" back then
    You won, get over it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Why are there no sighthounds on the list? What a travesty!

    If it weren't that they are a little too European, the Portuguese Podengo Pequeno is an excellent choice amongst sighthounds. Intelligent, good-natured,watchful, expressive, clean and great with children. A foe of rats and bushy tailed tree rats.

    I just happen to have one myself:


    Note the other creature in the image is an English short-hair tom-cat, and mostly tolerant of his step sibling.
    Why have you got Kinabalu's cat?
    At night all cats are grey.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    There is a bit of difference between the death penalty and euthanasia*, not least the death penalty is rarely voluntary.

    *not that I support that either.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
    After all, our police never get things wrong, why not go the full Judge Dredd?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    How much does it cost to keep her in jail about 50k? over 20 years thats a million how many free school meals a year would it pay for?
    In the US, it's cheaper to keep people in jail forever than to put them on death row, because on death row there are near endless appeals.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
    What's an acceptable number of people who feel pressured into assisted dying or base their decision on the wrong prognosis? What's an acceptable number of fatal reactions to drugs?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,405
    edited December 20
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly finished a week of doing my taxes. Just a couple of hours needed now, after Christmas

    What gets me REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY QUITE RESENTFUL is the fact that: if I am a day late filing my returns, I get INSTANTLY fined. But HMRC, all working from home, are now taking A YEAR to process Tax Exemption forms, despite multiple calls, and feeble promises, thereby costing me serious money

    Utter state of this country

    I'm not joking. A YEAR. AT LEAST

    To process one form
    Bureacracies tend to be more concerned with adherence to their own rules by others than their own compliance with standards, rules, or the law.
    It's making me quite irritable. I spoke to my Knapping Foreign Tax Accountant today, and she said the only tax authority in the world that is as fucked up as the UK's is....Germany's

    And it just so happens that my much-needed tax form is for exemption from tax by.... Germany

    She said "the whole thing could take easily two years, or more"

    I've already waited one year for the UK - AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T DELIVERED - and even when I get the form, perhaps when I am dead, I have to wait at least another year for the fucking krauts to be as shite as the British

    It is emblematic of the two sick men of Europe. Germany and the UK
    We sent a form to reclaim some German VAT (MwSt) (Well our German accountants did) a few weeks back. I reckon it'll be at least a couple of years we're out of pocket (If we're lucky) on it
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
    Well that is a decision people in government already makes with NICE making decisions on treatments to sanction....people die from those denials.

    NICE currently defines it as 20k per qualy year....how do you therefore justify 50k a year to keep a child killer in prison?
  • Leon said:

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    That is seriously clever politics
    Reform abolishing the licence fee might be clever politics. Reform axing Eastenders and Strictly is a less obvious vote-winner.
    It would win my vote.
    Some posts deserve more than a single like.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    edited December 20

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion (death penalty support), and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR (death penalty prohibition), yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
    42?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    Leon said:

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    That is seriously clever politics
    That is shocking from the BBC if it is genuine
    It's not the BBC but some contractor.

    For some reason, car parks come to mind.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    The legal system depended on having money. Still does to a considerable degree.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    edited December 20
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sue Gray. Therese Coffey. Mark Pack. Toby Young.

    As if any sensible person wasn’t already convinced that the House of Lords simply needs total abolition?

    Again like her or not, Gray is actually quite well qualified to scrutinise legislation.
    The real issue is the absurdity that is the Lords.
    It's an interesting sub-list. Is that one each chosen from Lab, Con, Lib, Ref - except that Tobes says he is Tory?

    Sue Gray I don't know apart from that she is in theory a competent bureaucrat.
    Theresa Coffey will be the farmers' spokeswoman and will join Lord Hogan-Howe's cycle-hating caucus.
    Mark Pack I think will surprise in some areas, and will introduce polling expertise, and *should* ask interesting questions. But I'm biased as he used to write a weekly column for my blog, whilst only telling me the Lib Dem dark arts secrets that I had found out for myself.
    Toby Young - no real idea. He says good things from time to time, but it needs to be filtered out from the various guff.

    I see that Labour's list is 60% female, and that Mary Bousted is in it - a bit of a surprise, maybe a sop to the Left. Also Luciana Berger of the famous personalised number plates and abuse by Corbyn supporters iirc, Mike Katz who may not be popular with anti-Israel types, Marvin Rees the lefty ex-Mayor of Bristol, the alliterative Reverend Russell Rook, Anji Hunter, Margaret Curran, and Thangam Debbonaire.

    I say there will be another 30 after the Hereditaries are hoofed, as 30 are not enough for the work imo, and they will want more than the Tories at that point. This list probably leaves Tories at 293, Lab 217, LD 80. After the Hereditaries are gone I make it roughly 238 Tories, 213 Lab, 76 LD.

    This batch seem to be notably middle-aged, so no obvious youth-stuffing,
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,944

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Britain has elections and labour or tories win despite the majority depsise who wins.....the difference is?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Saying that he would win anyway is Putinist propaganda. Nobody in a freely-contested system could retain power for 25 years.
  • A miniature schnauzer would make the best Prime Minister. Annoying, barks a lot but doesn’t have any particular uses. Alternatively, @IanB2’s dog. Never misses a photo opportunity.

    Could it be arranged for @IanB2 to have an extra daily pic for his dog?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    Carnyx said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    The legal system depended on having money. Still does to a considerable degree.
    Very much more so in England over the last 20 years - court action entrance fees have shot up, and legal aid is mainly gone.

    What is the situation in Scotland?
  • Sky

    Breaking

    On Mandelsons appointment Trump's spokesperson says he is an 'absolute moron' !!!!!

    Wonder what Mandelson knows? Is there a market for when the Trump Presidency implodes as it could be sudden?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,161
    Poodles are a very intelligent breed of dog. And they don't shed. Definitely the best.

    Full disclosure: Our miniature poodle is sitting right beside me.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    edited December 20
    Pagan2 said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Britain has elections and labour or tories win despite the majority depsise who wins.....the difference is?
    The British government doesn't murder popular opponents. The British government allows you to publicly disagree with it without putting you into jail.

    Those are pretty large differences.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
    Well that is a decision people in government already makes with NICE making decisions on treatments to sanction....people die from those denials.

    NICE currently defines it as 20k per qualy year....how do you therefore justify 50k a year to keep a child killer in prison?
    There's a fundamental difference between action to kill someone, and inaction killing someone.

    Hence the trolley problem.

    In any case, support for the death penalty varies. When crime is seen as out of control, and there is no death penalty, then people are generally in favour.

    And when there are high profile examples of it not looking so great (like Derek Bentley), then public opinion tends to go the other way.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    What's an acceptable number of dead innocents per year?
    Well that is a decision people in government already makes with NICE making decisions on treatments to sanction....people die from those denials.

    NICE currently defines it as 20k per qualy year....how do you therefore justify 50k a year to keep a child killer in prison?
    There's a fundamental difference between action to kill someone, and inaction killing someone.

    Hence the trolley problem.

    In any case, support for the death penalty varies. When crime is seen as out of control, and there is no death penalty, then people are generally in favour.

    And when there are high profile examples of it not looking so great (like Derek Bentley), then public opinion tends to go the other way.
    So explain to someone innocent they wont get treatment because it cost's 21k a year so they will have to either go private or die but we will spend 50k a year to keep a child killer alive then probably spend a load more if they are released because not like they are getting a job plus they will no doubt need security cover
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    IanB2 said:

    A miniature schnauzer would make the best Prime Minister. Annoying, barks a lot but doesn’t have any particular uses. Alternatively, @IanB2’s dog. Never misses a photo opportunity.

    Indeed. Clever, well behaved, independently minded, and has learned a lot more from his travels than a certain PB’er. And trained up from an early age, not even one year old when this was taken…
    Has he got a peerage?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Saying that he would win anyway is Putinist propaganda. Nobody in a freely-contested system could retain power for 25 years.
    It is not freely contested because he has the media, courts and people fall out of windows. Hence my earlier comment about rule of law and independent judiciary being pillars of what most people would call a democracy.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,378

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Saying that he would win anyway is Putinist propaganda. Nobody in a freely-contested system could retain power for 25 years.
    Japan's LDP would beg to differ:

    As I pointed out in my Parties article , it is entirely possible to hold power indefinitely in a democracy. You just say which parties can exist, and ensure that you have a veto over which candidates they can field. The votes are real, the results accurate, but the 'wrong' people never get to stand.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    We will miss democracy when it's gone.
    Funny that the Lib Dems literally campaigned to Revoke democracy, ie the Brexit referendum, and most of the Left wanted to annul democracy, by not enacting Brexit and having a 2nd vote to reverse it without even implementing it, ie telling the voters they don't count

    Didn't see many lefties and Lib Dems "missing democracy" back then
    Don't forget shecorns missive here advocating a grand coalition to keep out reform if they polled most
    The abolishing elections (temporarily) to save democracy was the corker…
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    The legal system depended on having money. Still does to a considerable degree.
    Very much more so in England over the last 20 years - court action entrance fees have shot up, and legal aid is mainly gone.

    What is the situation in Scotland?
    IANAE but probably not different for most purposes. But not libel tourism in the London style? (I am not sure why, but think it's to do with the technical details of defamation law).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Those benchmarks, huh
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    The legal system depended on having money. Still does to a considerable degree.
    Very much more so in England over the last 20 years - court action entrance fees have shot up, and legal aid is mainly gone.

    What is the situation in Scotland?
    IANAE but probably not different for most purposes. But not libel tourism in the London style? (I am not sure why, but think it's to do with the technical details of defamation law).
    Law in the uk is already only for those that can afford it if wronged
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Saying that he would win anyway is Putinist propaganda. Nobody in a freely-contested system could retain power for 25 years.
    The Japanese LDP held power between 1955 and 1993, in freely contested elections.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    edited December 20
    viewcode said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Saying that he would win anyway is Putinist propaganda. Nobody in a freely-contested system could retain power for 25 years.
    Japan's LDP would beg to differ:

    As I pointed out in my Parties article , it is entirely possible to hold power indefinitely in a democracy. You just say which parties can exist, and ensure that you have a veto over which candidates they can field. The votes are real, the results accurate, but the 'wrong' people never get to stand.
    It's not democracy in that case, because such a scheme would not be possible if you had the freedom to protest, freedom of the Press, an independent judiciary, etc.

    Democratic elections are a consequence of more fundamental elements of democracy - law and dissent. You can trivially have meaningless elections if there is not the rule of law or freedom to dissent, but in that case you don't have democracy.

    Edit: I've been disappointed that the rhetoric on Syria from some in the West doesn't recognise this, and there is too much emphasis on elections, and not enough on the rule of law and freedom of speech.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
    Or rabbits.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    viewcode said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Clearly democracies can have the death penalty, USA and Japan as examples. It is up to parties to put it into a manifesto and get elected. I don't think it a particular barrier to being elected here.
    It clearly is a barrier because among other things, reinstating the death penalty would involve withdrawing from the ECHR which on its own would provoke hysterical opposition.
    You are confusing what is possible within the legacy of the Conservative party and what is possible within the UK. Yes the Conservative party establishment are too divided on leaving ECHR or the death penalty to make it sensible to make it part of their pitch. That doesn't stop others doing so and winning, if the voters want it, nor the Conservative party changing further over time.
    So you would argue that if a party with such a platform came to power in the UK or another European country, it would simply be democracy working as it should?
    It would be democratic. US and Japan up until now have the death penalty and are not in the ECHR, they are democracies.

    A caveat would be that such parties tend to (not always) have a taste for the authoritarian in general which would weaken democracy. But on their own, there is nothing undemocratic about the death penalty or membership of the ECHR.
    We have polling evidence that there is a disconnect between public opinion, and a stipulation of membership of the ECHR, yet membership of the ECHR is woven into constitutional legislation like the Good Friday Agreement. It acts as a brake on democracy by design.
    As repeatedly pointed out public opinion is not internally logically consistent nor is it static or always deliverable.

    And democracy is as much about the rule of law, independent judiciary as it is about the will of the people.
    We had the rule of law and an independent judiciary long before we had universal suffrage.
    Putins Russia has elections and he wins. He exagerrates the totals but he would win anyway. It is not what people mean by democracy.
    Saying that he would win anyway is Putinist propaganda. Nobody in a freely-contested system could retain power for 25 years.
    Japan's LDP would beg to differ:

    As I pointed out in my Parties article , it is entirely possible to hold power indefinitely in a democracy. You just say which parties can exist, and ensure that you have a veto over which candidates they can field. The votes are real, the results accurate, but the 'wrong' people never get to stand.
    A single party retaining power is not the same as a personalist dictatorship. Japanese prime ministers tend not to last very long.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
    Or rabbits.
    Good eating on those
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    edited December 20
    Looking at the Noble Baron Reverend Doctor Russell David Rook OBE, he's perhaps one to watch in having a social network of the diversity that perhaps only Bishops have otherwise.

    1 - In any acceptable world he would be called Rupert, Richard or Roland, not David.

    2 - He runs something called the Good Faith Partnership, an ecumenical faith-based networking and consulting setup - which feels to me quite like a 2016 version of the CAN UK (Community Action Network) network that Lord Mawson (also a Reverend) set up in the 1990s, which inspired an immense number of entrepreneurial community projects.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Battlebus said:

    Sky

    Breaking

    On Mandelsons appointment Trump's spokesperson says he is an 'absolute moron' !!!!!

    Wonder what Mandelson knows? Is there a market for when the Trump Presidency implodes as it could be sudden?
    The common link that would disturb Trump is Epstein...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,161
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    How much does it cost to keep her in jail about 50k? over 20 years thats a million how many free school meals a year would it pay for?
    £1m is roughly what is considered a justified spend to make a process plant safer to save one life.

    Therefore if we save £1m for each killer who gets topped, one innocent death per pucker execution is a reasonable rate.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,744
    Next week: which of the following Prime Ministers would make the best type of dog?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    A miniature schnauzer would make the best Prime Minister. Annoying, barks a lot but doesn’t have any particular uses. Alternatively, @IanB2’s dog. Never misses a photo opportunity.

    Indeed. Clever, well behaved, independently minded, and has learned a lot more from his travels than a certain PB’er. And trained up from an early age, not even one year old when this was taken…
    As if to disprove my prior comment about his perennial grin, he is very serious faced there.
    Firenze is a very solemn place on occasion

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    Another attack on an Xmas market in Germany.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited December 20
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Nearly finished a week of doing my taxes. Just a couple of hours needed now, after Christmas

    What gets me REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY QUITE RESENTFUL is the fact that: if I am a day late filing my returns, I get INSTANTLY fined. But HMRC, all working from home, are now taking A YEAR to process Tax Exemption forms, despite multiple calls, and feeble promises, thereby costing me serious money

    Utter state of this country

    I'm not joking. A YEAR. AT LEAST

    To process one form
    Bureacracies tend to be more concerned with adherence to their own rules by others than their own compliance with standards, rules, or the law.
    It's making me quite irritable. I spoke to my Knapping Foreign Tax Accountant today, and she said the only tax authority in the world that is as fucked up as the UK's is....Germany's

    And it just so happens that my much-needed tax form is for exemption from tax by.... Germany

    She said "the whole thing could take easily two years, or more"

    I've already waited one year for the UK - AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T DELIVERED - and even when I get the form, perhaps when I am dead, I have to wait at least another year for the fucking krauts to be as shite as the British

    It is emblematic of the two sick men of Europe. Germany and the UK
    We sent a form to reclaim some German VAT (MwSt) (Well our German accountants did) a few weeks back. I reckon it'll be at least a couple of years we're out of pocket (If we're lucky) on it
    Fucking maddening. I reckon HMRC's pitiful chaos - along with that of Germany's - is costing me thousands. Maybe tens of thousands if for some reason I keel over in the interim

    WTF am I meant to do? My government no longer serves its purpose, it cannot run an efficient state. And yet when I vote for the other lot, they are just as bad, indeed significantly worse

    For this reason alone I will vote Reform, to terrify the shit out of ALL the Establishment. I want them frightened for their jobs and I want half of them sacked
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Pagan2 said:

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
    Or rabbits.
    Good eating on those
    More than a greyhound for sure.

    Big foodie fan of rabbit.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    How much does it cost to keep her in jail about 50k? over 20 years thats a million how many free school meals a year would it pay for?
    £1m is roughly what is considered a justified spend to make a process plant safer to save one life.

    Therefore if we save £1m for each killer who gets topped, one innocent death per pucker execution is a reasonable rate.
    Then we should be willing to spend a million on treatment to keep someone alive....however we dont
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    tlg86 said:

    Another attack on an Xmas market in Germany.

    Why would Elon Musk do that?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    tlg86 said:

    Another attack on an Xmas market in Germany.

    Probably the Welsh, again
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,350
    Interesting that the party led by Putin's Poodle have 0% voting for that breed
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
    Or rabbits.
    Good eating on those
    More than a greyhound for sure.

    Big foodie fan of rabbit.
    I have some good greyhound recipes if you get hold of one shout
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    What absolute lunatic has made Toby Young a peer?

    Oh, I see now.

    FPT

    Toby Young, if I rightly remember the Channel 4 docudrama When Boris Met Dave, was at Oxford with Boris and David Cameron. Accepted by mistake, Tobes got a first in PPE like Dave and was sacked from the Times like Boris. He is the quintessential Conservative.
    I know Tobes reasonably well. OOOOH the stories I could tell, but shan't

    He used to be quite a lad, but these days is much more sensible. He is doing genuinely good work with the Free Speech Union, taking on very deserving cases, he has also been cancelled at least twice, quite nastily, generally by people who hate the idea of Academies, or indeed of anyone rightwing

    For the Free Speech Union alone it's a good appointment, far more deserved that 90% of these fucking time wasters on the left. Have you seen Starmer's list? Fucksake Well done Kemi
    I agree. The fact he provokes billious attacks from our lefties says everything about his politics, nothing about his suitability. Do you folks want the Lords rammed to the rafters with centrist drones nodding through every bit of authoritarian lunacy that Sir Helmet dreams up? - Wait don't answer that.
    Look at Starmer's list, and weep for Britain


    Steamer’s new peerages:

    Professor Wendy Alexander
    Sir Brendan Barber
    Luciana Berger
    Mary Bousted
    Kevin Brennan
    Lyn Brown
    Dinah Caine
    Kay Carberry
    Margaret Curran
    Thangam Debbonaire
    Julie Elliott
    David Evans
    Sue Gray
    Theresa Griffin
    Anji Hunter
    Carwyn Jones
    Mike Katz
    Gerard Lemos
    Alison Levitt KC
    Anne Longfield
    Deborah Mattinson
    Steve McCabe
    Claude Morae
    Wendy Nichols
    Simon Pitkeathley
    Dame Anne Marie Rafferty
    Krish Raval
    Marvin Rees

    Revd Dr Russell David Rook
    Phil Wilson
    At the same time they got rid of 42 Conservative peers this is a massive stacking of parliament on party political grounds.

    And narry a whisper from the hypocrite who accused the Tories of electoral malfeasance for asking for voter ID or redistricting
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,161

    Next week: which of the following Prime Ministers would make the best type of dog?

    Or which PM is most likely to be caught dogging?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    That would have been a question for the judge. We have decided to accept the risk of people being improperly euthanised so I don't think the potential for miscarriages of justice is decisive as an argument against the death penalty.
    It's a strong argument but not for me the clincher. I'd oppose the DP even if juries were infallible.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    What absolute lunatic has made Toby Young a peer?

    Oh, I see now.

    FPT

    Toby Young, if I rightly remember the Channel 4 docudrama When Boris Met Dave, was at Oxford with Boris and David Cameron. Accepted by mistake, Tobes got a first in PPE like Dave and was sacked from the Times like Boris. He is the quintessential Conservative.
    I know Tobes reasonably well. OOOOH the stories I could tell, but shan't

    He used to be quite a lad, but these days is much more sensible. He is doing genuinely good work with the Free Speech Union, taking on very deserving cases, he has also been cancelled at least twice, quite nastily, generally by people who hate the idea of Academies, or indeed of anyone rightwing

    For the Free Speech Union alone it's a good appointment, far more deserved that 90% of these fucking time wasters on the left. Have you seen Starmer's list? Fucksake Well done Kemi
    I agree. The fact he provokes billious attacks from our lefties says everything about his politics, nothing about his suitability. Do you folks want the Lords rammed to the rafters with centrist drones nodding through every bit of authoritarian lunacy that Sir Helmet dreams up? - Wait don't answer that.
    Look at Starmer's list, and weep for Britain


    Steamer’s new peerages:

    Professor Wendy Alexander
    Sir Brendan Barber
    Luciana Berger
    Mary Bousted
    Kevin Brennan
    Lyn Brown
    Dinah Caine
    Kay Carberry
    Margaret Curran
    Thangam Debbonaire
    Julie Elliott
    David Evans
    Sue Gray
    Theresa Griffin
    Anji Hunter
    Carwyn Jones
    Mike Katz
    Gerard Lemos
    Alison Levitt KC
    Anne Longfield
    Deborah Mattinson
    Steve McCabe
    Claude Morae
    Wendy Nichols
    Simon Pitkeathley
    Dame Anne Marie Rafferty
    Krish Raval
    Marvin Rees

    Revd Dr Russell David Rook
    Phil Wilson
    At the same time they got rid of 42 Conservative peers this is a massive stacking of parliament on party political grounds.

    And narry a whisper from the hypocrite who accused the Tories of electoral malfeasance for asking for voter ID or redistricting
    They didn't get rid of Conservative peers. They got rid of hereditaries. Not the same thing.

    The Tories are still the largest party in the Lords as I understand it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    There’s actually a really unpleasant tone to that letter. Not one which a quasi governmental agency should be adopting
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,944

    Next week: which of the following Prime Ministers would make the best type of dog?

    Or which PM is most likely to be caught dogging?
    We walk our dogs every day, not at night though...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
    Or rabbits.
    Good eating on those
    More than a greyhound for sure.

    Big foodie fan of rabbit.
    I have some good greyhound recipes if you get hold of one shout
    Chances of me catching one are slight to nil!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330
    edited December 20

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    There’s actually a really unpleasant tone to that letter. Not one which a quasi governmental agency should be adopting
    It's not. It's the contractors. As I said earlier, they remind me of car park operators.

    Edit: but very much up to the BBC to choose their contractors ...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,161
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    How much does it cost to keep her in jail about 50k? over 20 years thats a million how many free school meals a year would it pay for?
    £1m is roughly what is considered a justified spend to make a process plant safer to save one life.

    Therefore if we save £1m for each killer who gets topped, one innocent death per pucker execution is a reasonable rate.
    Then we should be willing to spend a million on treatment to keep someone alive....however we dont
    £1m to avoid the death of a healthy person. Not someone in the departure lounge.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,944

    On topic
    I'm surprised that greyhounds don't feature. They make lovely pets.

    We have 2 at the moment, rehomed from the greyhound rescue trust. We've been doing this since 1991. I would recommend them to anyone, apart from those who have cats obvs.
    Or rabbits.
    Funnily enough they would be alright with rabbits, unless they started running away.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Musk backed Germany's AFD today and with Trump' co campaign director's derogatory comments about Mandelson and add in millions given to Farage by Musk, will this help or hinder Reform?

    The US billionaries, not just Musk, are going to throw their money around in Europe now to finish off democracy aided by Putin and the middle eastern royal dictators. They won't find it particularly hard to win.
    On the big questions, what we have in Europe can't really be called democracy. In this country people have consistently voted for reductions in immigration and got the opposite. Polls show substantial majorities in favour of the death penalty but it's become a political taboo to mention it. This disconnect can't hold forever and if the existing system collapses, it won't be the end of democracy but it's rebirth.
    What voters want is low taxes, high public spending, no immigration but full capacity in healthcare, care and other jobs natives don't want to do. Delivering that mix isn't democracy, it is fantasy.
    I note that you ignored the point about the death penalty. Do you think the idea of reintroducing it is a fantasy?
    Do you think Letby should have gone to the gallows last year?

    The polling for the death penalty is strongest for convicted child killers.
    How much does it cost to keep her in jail about 50k? over 20 years thats a million how many free school meals a year would it pay for?
    £1m is roughly what is considered a justified spend to make a process plant safer to save one life.

    Therefore if we save £1m for each killer who gets topped, one innocent death per pucker execution is a reasonable rate.
    Then we should be willing to spend a million on treatment to keep someone alive....however we dont
    £1m to avoid the death of a healthy person. Not someone in the departure lounge.
    A child killer is well past the departure lounge for starters and many that get denied treatment because its more that 20k would live 30 or more years with it. Once again arseholes get money spent on them when the law abiding and innocent get told they aren't worth it
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    edited December 20

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    What absolute lunatic has made Toby Young a peer?

    Oh, I see now.

    FPT

    Toby Young, if I rightly remember the Channel 4 docudrama When Boris Met Dave, was at Oxford with Boris and David Cameron. Accepted by mistake, Tobes got a first in PPE like Dave and was sacked from the Times like Boris. He is the quintessential Conservative.
    I don't think Toby Young got in by mistake, so much as his father pulling strings. So much for the Meritocracy.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/a-wellconnected-ambitious-blowhard-toby-young-is-just-what-education-doesn-t-need-a3731921.html#r3z-addoor
    That makes Toby an hereditary life peer. I don't suppose he's the first but I can't think of any others off-hand.

    Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
    But Toby Young was very heaven
    The Hailsham dynasty - the second and third viscounts had both hereditary and life peerages (as does Baroness Hogg and her father Lord Boyd Carpenter).

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    A vote-winning policy from Reform:

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1870156993463247262

    Look at these threats from the BBC mafia - expect the thugs on Christmas Day!

    When we win in 2029, the licence fee is gone on day one.


    image

    There’s actually a really unpleasant tone to that letter. Not one which a quasi governmental agency should be adopting
    The licence fee demand letters are one of the best arguments in favour of abolishing the licence fee. They're vile.
    Eastenders is the best argument
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