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Reform isn’t very popular – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,223
edited December 17 in General
Reform isn’t very popular – politicalbetting.com

While the government has announced that remaining district councils will likely be merged, Britons tend to think the current size of council areas is about rightRight kind of area: 45%Too big an area: 21%Too small an area: 6%https://t.co/ButcAeRdcu pic.twitter.com/SVyhKAKoOZ

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 15,094
    First
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited December 17
    Yep. Lose the pointless two tier authorities and expand the boundaries of Bristol, Nottingham and Newcastle into the bargain.

    Should have been done decades ago.
  • So in important news, I have a new job, working in the public sector.

    Ofcom has apologised for what it admits was an "ill-judged" employee post about a job which involves monitoring pornographic websites for illegal content and stopping children accessing them.

    "Always wanted to work in porn but don't have the feet for an OnlyFans? Now is your chance", joked the LinkedIn post by a senior staff member at the media regulator.

    Leading children's rights campaigner, Baroness Kidron, told the BBC the comments treated dealing with porn companies as a "perk", and "trivialised" the issue of violence against women and girls.

    In a statement, Ofcom told the BBC it was "a mistake from a well-intentioned colleague wishing to attract attention to a recruitment post".

    "They have recognised that the post was ill-judged and said sorry," they said.

    "Ofcom takes its role as online safety regulator extremely seriously and we are focused on finding the best people to help us carry out the job."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clygj1l4yweo
  • Clickbait title!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,506
    edited December 17
    OT 1-minute video
    Dominic Cummings called Cabinet ministers 'useless f***pigs'
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FZm7oAm4Zn8
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,484
    edited December 17
    Isn't that a rather meaningless poll, unless you know the distribution of respondents from different type of councils?
    For example, respondents from cities (the majority?) will probably reply that their council area size is about right. Rural respondents will be more mixed.
  • Isn't that a rather meaningless poll, unless you know the distribution of respondents from different type of councils?
    For example, respondents from cities (the majority?) will probably reply that their council area size is about right. Rural respondents will be more mixed.

    excellent point.
  • Clickbait title!

    Nah, if I had written 'Reform aren't popular' you would have had a point.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,688

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,925
    What benefits, TSE?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,353
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Can you find the clause in the NATO treaty that says "...unless the member state started it"?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,010
    edited December 17
    Is this not simply a really stupid question?

    I am in a District in a County, and I get significant aspects of service from both.

    If in a Mayoral area, some some from that level, too. I have one of those too now, but they are still working out how to do their knitting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,688

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Can you find the clause in the NATO treaty that says "...unless the member state started it"?
    Well, you need unanimity among the NATO members to invoke Article 5, and my money would be on it not being reached under those circumstance, but YMMV.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,864

    OT 1-minute video
    Dominic Cummings called Cabinet ministers 'useless f***pigs'
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FZm7oAm4Zn8

    Irony is dead.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,010
    edited December 17
    FPT Just for @Anabobazina since he mentioned "Nottingham" on the new thread. :wink: :

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good to see local government (potentially) being sorted out. It’s an abject mess in most places. Two-tier councils are pointless, and cities like Nottingham and Manchester have ludicrously tight boundaries that make no geographical sense and should have been expanded decades ago.

    JFDI.

    That scraping noise is the West Bridgford Maquis sharpening the inherited Victorinox Oyster Shuckers they have left over from 1972...
    The official 'City of Nottingham' is a geographical nonsense. Its borders should be expanded to encapsulate the likes of Bridgford, Gedling even Long Eaton, Ilkeston etc which are technically in Derbyshire but part of Greater Nottingham. Should have been done decades ago.

    Similar situation in Manchester and Newcastle – where parts of what is effectively the city centre are in another council area.

    JFDI.
    Bollocks to that. Gateshead is, and always will be, in County Durham.

    Not part of Newcastle, or in any way associated with that minor county on the other side of the river.
    Wrong. It's not been in County Durham for 50 years. Only contrary old-timers think that. Gateshead quayside is part and parcel of Newcastle city centre. Merge them, along with North and South Tyneside, which are equally nonsensical constructs. Should have happened decades ago.
    If you called it Tyneside or Tynebank or something you would probably get away with it, not if you called it Greater Newcastle or South Northumberland
    It can be called Newcastle & Tyneside, if only to satisfy a miserable handful of parochial contrary old-timers. I have family from Gateshead. Everywhere they go, they (quite reasonably) say they are from Newcastle.

    Presumably people like Sandy still insist Brixton is in Surrey and Tottenham is in Hertfordshire?
    In Nottingham case voters in wards in Broxtowe/Bridgford who are in financially functioning district councils whose 2nd tier is the County will be transferred to a bankrupt city under these plans.

    Madness.

    Their services will be woeful compared to where they now live. Libraries shut, bin collections moved to once a month and all the rest.

    Nope. Those residents are part and parcel of a functioning city – they should pay their way towards it, not reside in a make-believe tax haven outside its bonkers official boundaries.
    Good luck selling that message to the voters...
    Sounds like they plan not to hold elections so we can't make our views known at ballot box.

    This lot seem absolutely determined to make the way clear for Farage and Reform.
    When you've lost them, voters are very patient when waiting to tell parties they have lost their confidence. It was clear they wanted the Tories out. Sunak waiting a further six months would likeliest have just pissed off more of them. However long you play it, there is no happy outcome. Maybe too soon to say that of Starmer, but the signs aren't good.
    Nottingham's population is 768,638, according to the ONS.

    Yet Nottingham City Council's population is only 323,632.

    So only 42% of the city's population is captured by the council area –– that is clearly insane and should have been fixed decades ago.

    P.S. It's not just Nottingham that has this problem – similar issues exist in Newcastle, Bristol, Manchester etc.
    I think that's Nottingham Urban Area, which is a fairly bizarre methodology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_Urban_Area

    It includes places nearly 15 miles away.
    Why is it bizarre? It's the Greater Nottingham area. Maybe the odd edge case settlement is 14 miles away, most of it is nothing like far away. And so what?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_Urban_Area

    Old Denby, for example, is not the "Greater Nottingham Area". Nor is Heanor. Nor is Ripley.

    Drawing it out that far is beyond absurd.
    There will always be tiny edge cases. They are counted by the ONS. Wikipedia says this: "The Heanor/Ripley and West Hallam north-western extensions have a somewhat tenuous linkage through to the core of Nottingham City largely due to ribbon development."

    Probably a good argument to exclude them, but the basic principle makes good sense.
    It's a chunk of a "tiny edge case" - Ripley and Heanor have 40,000 people between them.

    If the chinless wonders of Whitehall think they can draw lines across the country as their grandads did around the ME, then they've got another thing coming.

    But imo Starmer is better than that.
    Again, I’ve twice already said that there’s a reasonable case for excluding them. Now three times!! It is the ONS that included them - not me or indeed @Pulpstar for that matter!
    Yes :smile: . I'll push further and say that the whole thing is a shit bonkers methodology.

    There's quite a bit of history about why things were built up that way (and this way). In recent times it was "All the rest is Green Belt, we'll have to do developement *there* because we want to protect the Green Belt." There are still echoes of that in County or "Nottingham and its area" level strategic planning documents if you read between the lines. It's one reason I am glad to see 70-years-out-of-date Green Belt maps questioned.

    Before that rich people built their industry on that patch, and lived somewhere else. You can see a small echo of it in where Ashfield MPs (on their high salaries) live. Geoff Hoon lived in Breaston in the leafy Trent Valley, Gloria de Piero lived n Bagthorpe near Langley Mill - one of the more rural Ashfield villages. Lee Anderson lives in a former mining town, albeit he's moved to a cul-de-sac in the the posh end of it near the golf club.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,185
    edited December 17
    MattW said:

    Is this not simply a really stupid question?

    I am in a District in a County, and I get significant aspects of service from both.

    If in a Mayoral area, some some from that level, too. I have one of those too now, but they are still working out how to do their knitting.

    The government knows that for its scheme to work, there needs to be something meaningful at very local level. There are recognitions of this in the White Paper, but no concrete proposals either to beef up towns and parishes, keep some district type authorities in rural areas, or find ways for the mayoral authorities to decentralise some of their work within their patch.

    Otherwise the government will simply be taking the ‘local’ out of local government.
  • Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,153
    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,063

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,688
    edited December 17

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,010
    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Is this not simply a really stupid question?

    I am in a District in a County, and I get significant aspects of service from both.

    If in a Mayoral area, some some from that level, too. I have one of those too now, but they are still working out how to do their knitting.

    The government knows that for its scheme to work, there needs to be something meaningful at very local level. There are recognitions of this in the White Paper, but no concrete proposals either to beef up towns and parishes, keep some district type authorities in rural areas, or find ways for the mayoral authorities to decentralise some of their work within their patch.

    Otherwise the government will simply be taking the ‘local’ out of local government.
    I wouldn't regard a District (as currently constituted) as being local; that's more a town or parish. France has (iirc) 36,000 local communes.

    I'd say that the current main organisational problems in the UK are too much centralism at national level, not enough devolution locally at the very bottom tier, and a confused middle.

    Mayors are good if some things move from Westminster. And a middle tier below county and above district, replacing both, looks good. I'd want numbers to be around 250k-350k for that, with some deviation both sides, and a focus on services not identity.

    I'm not impressed by the constant "too many politicians" in the White Paper, as a major source of waste. No - a minor source.

    This is a summary of the French setup (wiki):

    Some areas are the clear responsibility of one level of government (e.g. the state is responsible for international issues), but in other areas it is shared across some or all levels of government (e.g. transport, parks, tourism, culture, and sport get different types of support from different levels).

    The national government is responsible for the military, foreign policy, immigration, economic policy, environment, agriculture, food and drug safety, health insurance, the justice system, National Police, military police (National Gendarmerie), Paris region emergency services, higher education, research, and national support for culture and sport

    Regions cannot write their own laws, but can raise taxes and are responsible for high schools, public transit, universities and research, and assistance to business owners.

    Departments are responsible for junior high schools, social and welfare allowances, local roads, school and rural buses, and a subsidy for municipal infrastructure.

    Communes are responsible for local roads, municipal police, water management, and garbage collection, vital records, local prosecutions, local elections, and registration for civil service and elections.


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Did you get my post FPT re- pancreatic cancer, Robert ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,558

    So in important news, I have a new job, working in the public sector.

    Ofcom has apologised for what it admits was an "ill-judged" employee post about a job which involves monitoring pornographic websites for illegal content and stopping children accessing them.

    "Always wanted to work in porn but don't have the feet for an OnlyFans? Now is your chance", joked the LinkedIn post by a senior staff member at the media regulator.

    Leading children's rights campaigner, Baroness Kidron, told the BBC the comments treated dealing with porn companies as a "perk", and "trivialised" the issue of violence against women and girls.

    In a statement, Ofcom told the BBC it was "a mistake from a well-intentioned colleague wishing to attract attention to a recruitment post".

    "They have recognised that the post was ill-judged and said sorry," they said.

    "Ofcom takes its role as online safety regulator extremely seriously and we are focused on finding the best people to help us carry out the job."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clygj1l4yweo

    Back in ye olden days, I was part of a team creating a web browsing box for the Japanese market. We would get reports of websites that did not load or display properly. Our Japanese agent did a very good job of trying to (ahem) sanitise the issues (recreating the faults on 'clean' pages...) but they could not always do it.

    So yes, we had to browse porn. That would not happen nowadays, thankfully. (Even back then, we had to get management permission to do so, and it had to be done in a separate office, not our cubes.)

    Japanese web browsing habits were *weird*, even back then...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,558
    It looks as though a third Russian tanker is going down in the Black Sea. It joins the two that previously broke up, and the crane ship that went turtle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,688
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Did you get my post FPT re- pancreatic cancer, Robert ?
    I saw it, thank you
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,153
    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    It might last for two months - long enough to introduce PR voting which both want.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,766

    It looks as though a third Russian tanker is going down in the Black Sea. It joins the two that previously broke up, and the crane ship that went turtle.

    Oh dear, how sad. Hope all the crew got ashore safely.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,094

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,153
    Sandpit said:


    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
    Another stupid decision.

    Guaranteed to fuel the Reform surge.

    They come so fast now I struggle to keep up with them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    Local government restructuring is never particularly popular.
    Which is why doing it in year 1 is good politics by Starmer (is that a first ?).
    Heath waited for two years.

    It might even prove to be a good idea.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,153
    Taz said:

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
    The problem is there are dozens of photos of Starmer and Kendell holding WASPI supportive posters and banners.

    I guess they feel they can ride that out.

  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,112
    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    They might agree to implement proportional representation (it will be in both manifestos and is the only point of overlap), absolutely nothing else, then go to the electorate again.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,315
    edited December 17
    Looks like Konstantin Kisin isn't even pretending to be a '1990's social democrat' anymore before the woke took over and is more than happy to get on the DOGE, Milei, Trussonomics gravy train.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mpaW6G9Bzk
    Seems like we actually had a socialist government running Britain for the last 14 years. :o
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,063

    Sandpit said:


    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
    Another stupid decision.

    Guaranteed to fuel the Reform surge.

    They come so fast now I struggle to keep up with them.
    I suspect this one comes with a High Court defeat if they try and push it.

    Elections are kind of mandatory Mr Sir Starmer, you can’t just cancel them on a whim because you wish to re-organise local governments. There needs to be a war or pandemic before elections get postponed, not reasons of government policy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    edited December 17
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Note that william’s post was a reply to this:
    .. Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier….
    So an irrelevant non sequitur anyway.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,353
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Can you find the clause in the NATO treaty that says "...unless the member state started it"?
    Well, you need unanimity among the NATO members to invoke Article 5, and my money would be on it not being reached under those circumstance, but YMMV.
    No you don't. Article 5 is actually fairly weak. For example had Ukraine been a member, the Western response to the invasion could have been exactly the same.

    In any case, what NATO would or wouldn't do is irrelevant to what Russia and North Korea do. They have their own agreements.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,904
    TimS said:

    I’m surprised you didn’t do a thread on this groundbreaking sociological research:

    https://x.com/jim_blagden/status/1869048209336893835

    image

    Border Collie is surely the appropriate answer. We want someone who can mesmerise us with a mixture of fear and hypnosis and guide us sheep-like into small pens.
    Also probably more intelligent than several of our recent PMs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    Ratters said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    They might agree to implement proportional representation (it will be in both manifestos and is the only point of overlap), absolutely nothing else, then go to the electorate again.
    I was thinking along those lines, too.
    Though I rather suspect Reform as largest party would quickly change their view on the merits of PR.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,353
    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/1869072581527294201

    EXC with @MrHarryCole

    Starmer will appoint THIRTY new Labour peers on Thursday

    Ex-MPs and the PM’s former right-hand woman Sue Gray are among those set to gain a gong
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
    Another stupid decision.

    Guaranteed to fuel the Reform surge.

    They come so fast now I struggle to keep up with them.
    I suspect this one comes with a High Court defeat if they try and push it.

    Elections are kind of mandatory Mr Sir Starmer, you can’t just cancel them on a whim because you wish to re-organise local governments. There needs to be a war or pandemic before elections get postponed, not reasons of government policy.
    You can, and Conservative governments have done so in the not that distant past.

    The GLC elections that were due in 1985 didn't happen because there wasn't much point when the GLC was going to be abolished the following year. The same happened when unitary cities were nibbled out of counties in 1998; those areas didn't get a county council election in 1997.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Did you get my post FPT re- pancreatic cancer, Robert ?
    I saw it, thank you
    If there is a PIII trial next year (the results are certainly good enough, but clinical progress can be maddeningly slow), I would definitely look at it.
  • DavidL said:

    Been seriously busy of late with less time for mucking about but felt I really had to come on and give credit where its due. Well done Starmer and Kendall in turning down compensation for the WASPI women, surely one of the least deserving and most ridiculous category of supplicants we have seen for some considerable time.

    Its called equality, girls, get used to it.

    Good test of the good faith of Team Kemi and Team Right Wing Press.

    Suspect that the mid market tabloids won't be able to resist- WASPIs seem like their core market. But if the Conservatives can't back this, their "support the government when it does the right thing" line will seem awfully hollow.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,094

    Taz said:

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
    The problem is there are dozens of photos of Starmer and Kendell holding WASPI supportive posters and banners.

    I guess they feel they can ride that out.

    That’s probably the calculation and get it out the way 4 years or so before the next election.

    They’ve done the right thing. I do hope they don’t pay a price for it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,094

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/1869072581527294201

    EXC with @MrHarryCole

    Starmer will appoint THIRTY new Labour peers on Thursday

    Ex-MPs and the PM’s former right-hand woman Sue Gray are among those set to gain a gong

    Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,487
    SPOTY.
    What a load of pretentious twaddle.
    Made even worse by constantly teasing that they would let Baba O'Riley rip.
    And then not.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,353
    https://x.com/_johnnymaga/status/1869069922376294809

    Trump’s lawsuit against Des Moines Register pollster Ann Selzer includes an X post from a coconut emoji Democrat anon account leaking the poll results hours before it was publicly released, indicating that there was a coordinated effort between Ann Selzer and Democrat operatives.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,153
    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    They might agree to implement proportional representation (it will be in both manifestos and is the only point of overlap), absolutely nothing else, then go to the electorate again.
    I was thinking along those lines, too.
    Though I rather suspect Reform as largest party would quickly change their view on the merits of PR.
    They'll do whatever Elon/Trump tells them to do.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,094

    Taz said:

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
    The problem is there are dozens of photos of Starmer and Kendell holding WASPI supportive posters and banners.

    I guess they feel they can ride that out.

    Stuff like this *may* come back to haunt them though

    https://x.com/toryfibs/status/1869028470497649148?s=61
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,975

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/1869072581527294201

    EXC with @MrHarryCole

    Starmer will appoint THIRTY new Labour peers on Thursday

    Ex-MPs and the PM’s former right-hand woman Sue Gray are among those set to gain a gong

    It was worth Sue Gray f****** over poor Boris.

    https://x.com/_johnnymaga/status/1869069922376294809

    Trump’s lawsuit against Des Moines Register pollster Ann Selzer includes an X post from a coconut emoji Democrat anon account leaking the poll results hours before it was publicly released, indicating that there was a coordinated effort between Ann Selzer and Democrat operatives.

    It seems like a relatively minor infringement compared to an insurrection on 6th January 2021, but you know best.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,688
    Ratters said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    They might agree to implement proportional representation (it will be in both manifestos and is the only point of overlap), absolutely nothing else, then go to the electorate again.
    Who gets to be temporary PM?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    I don’t know the details, or if this will work out, but I’ve argued for something along these lines for a while.
    (It’s basically reversing the play that China imposed on western manufacturers over the last three decades.)

    Europe’s demand for Chinese tech transfers beats tariffs
    The policy is neither capitulation nor gamble; it is a calculated response to the realities of the global competitive landscape for electric vehicles.

    https://x.com/pstAsiatech/status/1869014551578263908
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,975
    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,815
    Taz said:

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
    After all this I imagine GB News must surely find a sixty-eight year old farmer's wife shivering in front of a single bar.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,925

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    Once is not "have form".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    Once is not "have form".
    There was also 1970.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,815

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    The one to watch will be the outcome of the Scottish elections in 2026.

    It'll be a muddle but I reckon we'll see an SNP/Labour coalition. You read it first here.

    (They both agree on pretty well everything bar Indy, and that will off the table as there won't be a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood. And no other combination will get anywhere near to a working majority.)

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    edited December 17
    rcs1000 said:

    Ratters said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    They might agree to implement proportional representation (it will be in both manifestos and is the only point of overlap), absolutely nothing else, then go to the electorate again.
    Who gets to be temporary PM?
    I’d guess that Farage would make a show of trying to form a government (while refusing PR to the Libs), and blame everyone else for the subsequent failure, hoping to win a majority in the resulting rerun - a bit like Wilson in 1970.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,146

    Yep. Lose the pointless two tier authorities ...

    How DARE you talk about the Scottish Government like that?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,777

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    I checked the Telegraph this evening to see the results of a mass poll expecting not a lot of sympathy, only to see to my surprise that 59% backed the Waspi women.

    Then I remembered: the Telegraph is almost entirely read by pensioners.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,777
    dixiedean said:

    SPOTY.
    What a load of pretentious twaddle.
    Made even worse by constantly teasing that they would let Baba O'Riley rip.
    And then not.

    If Luke Littler didn't win then it's a teenage wasteland.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,793

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I hope this was just another attack on Biden, rather than signalling Trump's intentions towards Ukraine. Probably a forlorn hope.

    Trump falsely claims the Biden administration’s decisions to allow Ukraine to launch US-supplied ATACMS into Russian territory led to the North Koreans being deployed to Russia and entering the war. But Pyongyang sent 11,000 troops to Russia a month earlier. In fact, part of the Biden admin’s reasoning was the North Koreans’ foray into the war...
    https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1868707995804369281

    It was caused by Ukraine's Kursk incursion which activated the mutual defence treaty between Russia and North Korea.
    Blimey, you are deep in the tank.
    It's a factual statement. You can be opposed to Russia without having to live in a fantasy world.
    So, if a NATO country (say) Turkey invaded Armenia, and then Armenian troops were to cross over into Turkey, that would constitute an attack on a NATO nation and result in the invocation of Article 5?
    Can you find the clause in the NATO treaty that says "...unless the member state started it"?
    Well, you need unanimity among the NATO members to invoke Article 5, and my money would be on it not being reached under those circumstance, but YMMV.
    No you don't. Article 5 is actually fairly weak. For example had Ukraine been a member, the Western response to the invasion could have been exactly the same.

    In any case, what NATO would or wouldn't do is irrelevant to what Russia and North Korea do. They have their own agreements.
    It's a treaty not a computer program.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,094

    dixiedean said:

    SPOTY.
    What a load of pretentious twaddle.
    Made even worse by constantly teasing that they would let Baba O'Riley rip.
    And then not.

    If Luke Littler didn't win then it's a teenage wasteland.
    Well many of his fellow darts professionals are usually all wasted.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,847
    edited December 17
    Sandpit said:


    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
    Well he can fuck right off.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,688
    Nigelb said:

    I don’t know the details, or if this will work out, but I’ve argued for something along these lines for a while.
    (It’s basically reversing the play that China imposed on western manufacturers over the last three decades.)

    Europe’s demand for Chinese tech transfers beats tariffs
    The policy is neither capitulation nor gamble; it is a calculated response to the realities of the global competitive landscape for electric vehicles.

    https://x.com/pstAsiatech/status/1869014551578263908

    It's an unusually sensible piece of industrial policy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,793
    edited December 17

    https://x.com/_johnnymaga/status/1869069922376294809

    Trump’s lawsuit against Des Moines Register pollster Ann Selzer includes an X post from a coconut emoji Democrat anon account leaking the poll results hours before it was publicly released, indicating that there was a coordinated effort between Ann Selzer and Democrat operatives.

    I'm considering a lawsuit against her for mental distress via false hope.

    Ralston's runes were right.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,847

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    I checked the Telegraph this evening to see the results of a mass poll expecting not a lot of sympathy, only to see to my surprise that 59% backed the Waspi women.

    Then I remembered: the Telegraph is almost entirely read by pensioners.
    How many former readers don't touch the filthy rag.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,484

    Taz said:

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
    After all this I imagine GB News must surely find a sixty-eight year old farmer's wife shivering in front of a single bar.
    .....holding up a school photo of the grandkids at Scumbag Comprehensive, having been priced out of Poshville College by the VAT hike.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,137
    Certainly seems from that poll most voters of all parties think councils don't need to cover a bigger area and Reform and Tory voters especially think most councils are already too big.

    Large unitaries replacing county and district councils will therefore not have much enthusiasm from them, indeed they will likely just increase connection to their local Parish and Town council above all
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,137

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    The one to watch will be the outcome of the Scottish elections in 2026.

    It'll be a muddle but I reckon we'll see an SNP/Labour coalition. You read it first here.

    (They both agree on pretty well everything bar Indy, and that will off the table as there won't be a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood. And no other combination will get anywhere near to a working majority.)

    Alba would be delighted by that result, as would the Scottish Conservatives
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,904

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
    Another stupid decision.

    Guaranteed to fuel the Reform surge.

    They come so fast now I struggle to keep up with them.
    I suspect this one comes with a High Court defeat if they try and push it.

    Elections are kind of mandatory Mr Sir Starmer, you can’t just cancel them on a whim because you wish to re-organise local governments. There needs to be a war or pandemic before elections get postponed, not reasons of government policy.
    You can, and Conservative governments have done so in the not that distant past.

    The GLC elections that were due in 1985 didn't happen because there wasn't much point when the GLC was going to be abolished the following year. The same happened when unitary cities were nibbled out of counties in 1998; those areas didn't get a county council election in 1997.
    There you go again with your facts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    Equality Caucus chair tells ‘idiots’ who claimed Wisconsin shooter was trans to ‘f‑‑‑ off’

    https://thehill.com/homenews/lgbtq/5044574-mark-pocan-natalie-rupnow-wisconsin-school-shooting-abundant-life-matt-gaetz/
    Rep. Mark Pocan (D-Wis.), chair of the Congressional Equality Caucus, which works to advance LGBTQ equality in the House, on Tuesday slammed “idiots” who claimed without evidence that the shooter at a Wisconsin private school a day earlier was transgender.
    Two people — one teenage student and a teacher — were killed and another six were injured, including two students in critical condition with life-threatening injuries, in a shooting Monday at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wis. Local authorities identified the shooter as 15-year-old Natalie Rupnow, who went by the name “Samantha” and was a student there. No evidence suggests Rupnow identified as trans.
    “To all the idiots who claimed the shooter was trans with no information whatsoever to believe that, f‑‑‑ off. Your ignorance speaks volumes. Your hate is consuming your brains (or what’s left of them),” Pocan wrote early Tuesday on the social platform X, responding to a post by former Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) that asked “What about trans control instead?” after President Biden’s demand for tougher gun laws…



    Seems to be a pattern with the MAGA crowd.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,137

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/1869072581527294201

    EXC with @MrHarryCole

    Starmer will appoint THIRTY new Labour peers on Thursday

    Ex-MPs and the PM’s former right-hand woman Sue Gray are among those set to gain a gong

    Hereditaries out, Labour loyalists in, no surprise on the new peers
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,489
    edited December 17

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    The one to watch will be the outcome of the Scottish elections in 2026.

    It'll be a muddle but I reckon we'll see an SNP/Labour coalition. You read it first here.

    (They both agree on pretty well everything bar Indy, and that will off the table as there won't be a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood. And no other combination will get anywhere near to a working majority.)

    Doubt it very much. The Bain Principle still applies. Look at Edinburgh where Labour are one of the smaller parties yet insist on ruling [edit] with the support of everyone down to Shug the Easter Road Jakie and his wee dug rather than allow the SNP to lead as the largest party.

    The current tension between Labour HQ and the locals having their chain yanked either directly or by everuone watching won't help.

    I'd expect a minority Labour government if the largest party, or second largest party, with the support of Reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,137
    Nigelb said:

    I don’t know the details, or if this will work out, but I’ve argued for something along these lines for a while.
    (It’s basically reversing the play that China imposed on western manufacturers over the last three decades.)

    Europe’s demand for Chinese tech transfers beats tariffs
    The policy is neither capitulation nor gamble; it is a calculated response to the realities of the global competitive landscape for electric vehicles.

    https://x.com/pstAsiatech/status/1869014551578263908

    Looks like China and the EU are getting closer economically and on tech and electric cars, just as Trump and the GOP prepare to take over and impose massive tariffs on both
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,766

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    Alternatively once bitten……..
    I agree that Clegg was over-attracted by the idea of being in Government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,137
    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    They might agree to implement proportional representation (it will be in both manifestos and is the only point of overlap), absolutely nothing else, then go to the electorate again.
    I was thinking along those lines, too.
    Though I rather suspect Reform as largest party would quickly change their view on the merits of PR.
    On many current polls if we had PR we would get a Tory and Reform coalition government, whereas if we kept FPTP we would likely get a Labour minority government propped up by the LDs
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,010
    edited December 17
    FPT for @Cookie
    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    Off thread, but just to get off my chest:

    Just been to my daughter's primary school carol concert. I was somewhat ambivalent towards it. Obviously seeing my daughter singing was nice. But it did not leave me feeling Christmassy.

    I'm fairly grumpy about enforced Christianity, but I'm prepared to make compromises at Christmas. I find it weird to celebrate the Northern European midwinter with imagery from the Middle East, but actually the whole cycle of a carol concert - a huge gothic church outside which the skies are dark and the night is cold; Once in Royal David's City (with the first verse sung by a solo soprano) through to Hark the Herald Angels Sing; interspersed with readings from the gospel of St, Matthew (I think?), King James edition does feel suitably Christmas. I like it. I like the music and the poetry of the language. I like the familiarity of the ritual. I like the fact that this has been an English Christmas for 400 years.

    But this primary school carol concert was not that. It was Away in a Manger (fine, but speed up) plus eight songs I did not know but which felt like they had been produced by ChatGPT given the prompt "please produce a turgid, anodyne Christmas song about how wonderful Jesus/God is." It was baffling that anyone could have written any of these pieces and thought them a worthwhile addition to the cannon. Some of them had a sax solo. And it also felt slightly uncomfortable. I don't think one child in 20 at that school has the sort of positive feelings about God or Jesus that the songs feebly attempted to encourage. It's not a CofE school. 30% of the school is Asian or North African. I don't want to come across all woke, but it was hard to see what function this was fulfilling.

    I'm not saying there can't be religion in a school Christmas performance, but it can't be all there is. You also need tradition, or humour, or musical excellence, or, well, something to make it worthwhile.

    What were the songs, out of interest? (Two or three titles would be enough.)

    Schools with no basis in it trying to perform religion sometimes does not work well - it can be a kind of dad-dancing, like an English person trying to talk French, which they stopped learning at age 12, from memory, 30 years later.

    Equally it can sometimes be a carol concert not meeting befuddled audience expectations.

    (That's the skeptical side, it can also be good - or others have a different set of expectations and experiences.)

    Tricky stuff :smile: . Have you gone a-wassailing yet, this year?
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:
    We'll sing the story of Christmas
    Something special
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.]
    Away in a Manger
    The Gift
    Shepherd's Calypso [done with some skill by the choir, this, to be fair].
    That First Christmas
    Ring Out
    Child in a Manger Born

    But yes - Dad dancing exactly.

    I don't tend to wassail. Too self conscious about singing. But I'm not averse to others doing it, when done well.

    (Incidentally, I recently found out the original meaning of the a- suffix. It means to go on and on. i.e. in this case a lot of wassailing. It then got coopted by poets for use when an extra syllable is needed.)
    Thanks for posting.

    I've had a look. It's a tricky event to balance because you need easy to participate for all ages, impress parents, let the choir show-off, not annoy anyone TOO much, perhaps even not be so traditional as to be seen to be 'promoting religion' and so on. It can work well or badly, and differently for different people.

    Notes:
    ----------
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:

    We'll sing the story of ChristmasThis is Usonian immediately post-WW2, so vaguely Bing Crosby sort of time.
    Something special Is this CBeebies? It is a programme with a "Hello Hello" song theme.
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.] Not sure on that one. The Home Alone version is everywhere.
    Away in a Manger Known, but it's Usonian late Victorian "Meek and Mild" nonsense, that really really irritates me.
    The Gift Again lots of ones called this.
    Shepherd's Calypso That's here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxRVfxvZjE.
    That First Christmas I like this one
    Ring Out The Bells Ring Out? I have an inkling this may be Ukrainian originally, but they would probably have told you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_of_the_Bells has the main theme you would recognise if it is the correct thing.

    Child in a Manger BornThis is modern, from a British couple called Mark and Helen Johnson, who specialise in music for assemblies, schools, churches etc - since 1989.
    ----------

    It's always interesting what comforts or provokes. I've been across many traditions, and take a 1662 Anglican to a Pentecostal event, or vice versa, or a traditional Gospel Hall Protestant to a charismatic (say hands-up evangelical) do, or vice versa, and it can either be embraced as "different and interesting" or can make someone be very diffident, or even be repelled. Attachments to style run very deep, because the meaning runs very deep for the individuals. If something is not what we expect, it can be challenging.

    It's particularly fun that typically black people clap OFF the beat, and white people clap ON the beat. That can cause chaos for a bit.

    I quite like silence sometimes :smile: .

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,185
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Is this not simply a really stupid question?

    I am in a District in a County, and I get significant aspects of service from both.

    If in a Mayoral area, some some from that level, too. I have one of those too now, but they are still working out how to do their knitting.

    The government knows that for its scheme to work, there needs to be something meaningful at very local level. There are recognitions of this in the White Paper, but no concrete proposals either to beef up towns and parishes, keep some district type authorities in rural areas, or find ways for the mayoral authorities to decentralise some of their work within their patch.

    Otherwise the government will simply be taking the ‘local’ out of local government.
    I wouldn't regard a District (as currently constituted) as being local; that's more a town or parish. France has (iirc) 36,000 local communes.

    I'd say that the current main organisational problems in the UK are too much centralism at national level, not enough devolution locally at the very bottom tier, and a confused middle.

    Mayors are good if some things move from Westminster. And a middle tier below county and above district, replacing both, looks good. I'd want numbers to be around 250k-350k for that, with some deviation both sides, and a focus on services not identity.

    I'm not impressed by the constant "too many politicians" in the White Paper, as a major source of waste. No - a minor source.

    This is a summary of the French setup (wiki):

    Some areas are the clear responsibility of one level of government (e.g. the state is responsible for international issues), but in other areas it is shared across some or all levels of government (e.g. transport, parks, tourism, culture, and sport get different types of support from different levels).

    The national government is responsible for the military, foreign policy, immigration, economic policy, environment, agriculture, food and drug safety, health insurance, the justice system, National Police, military police (National Gendarmerie), Paris region emergency services, higher education, research, and national support for culture and sport

    Regions cannot write their own laws, but can raise taxes and are responsible for high schools, public transit, universities and research, and assistance to business owners.

    Departments are responsible for junior high schools, social and welfare allowances, local roads, school and rural buses, and a subsidy for municipal infrastructure.

    Communes are responsible for local roads, municipal police, water management, and garbage collection, vital records, local prosecutions, local elections, and registration for civil service and elections.


    France has more councils than the UK has councillors! Amazing, but true.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,137

    So in important news, I have a new job, working in the public sector.

    Ofcom has apologised for what it admits was an "ill-judged" employee post about a job which involves monitoring pornographic websites for illegal content and stopping children accessing them.

    "Always wanted to work in porn but don't have the feet for an OnlyFans? Now is your chance", joked the LinkedIn post by a senior staff member at the media regulator.

    Leading children's rights campaigner, Baroness Kidron, told the BBC the comments treated dealing with porn companies as a "perk", and "trivialised" the issue of violence against women and girls.

    In a statement, Ofcom told the BBC it was "a mistake from a well-intentioned colleague wishing to attract attention to a recruitment post".

    "They have recognised that the post was ill-judged and said sorry," they said.

    "Ofcom takes its role as online safety regulator extremely seriously and we are focused on finding the best people to help us carry out the job."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clygj1l4yweo

    OFCOM is technically a statutory corporation funded by fees from companies it regulates, rather than a public sector body funded by taxpayers
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,793

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Meanwhile, Starmer appears to be planning to cancel many of next year’s local elections…
    Another stupid decision.

    Guaranteed to fuel the Reform surge.

    They come so fast now I struggle to keep up with them.
    I suspect this one comes with a High Court defeat if they try and push it.

    Elections are kind of mandatory Mr Sir Starmer, you can’t just cancel them on a whim because you wish to re-organise local governments. There needs to be a war or pandemic before elections get postponed, not reasons of government policy.
    You can, and Conservative governments have done so in the not that distant past.

    The GLC elections that were due in 1985 didn't happen because there wasn't much point when the GLC was going to be abolished the following year. The same happened when unitary cities were nibbled out of counties in 1998; those areas didn't get a county council election in 1997.
    There you go again with your facts.
    Yes I have tried to tell him ... but no.
  • Taz said:

    Credit to Starmer and Kendall for favouring the young over a bunch of grifting oldies.

    The Coverage on the ITV news tonight may as well have been a press release from the WASPI women.

    Peston his usual rambling self.

    But, yes, well done Labour on this. It is the right decision and it is good to see them taking a tough decision and the right one.
    The problem is there are dozens of photos of Starmer and Kendell holding WASPI supportive posters and banners.

    I guess they feel they can ride that out.

    Shades of Nick Clegg reversing ferret on student loans, which got him a nice job in Downing Street followed by a nice pay packet in Silicon Valley but was not so good for his party.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,913

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    It would be an interesting exercise to actually try to list the big ticket items where Reform and LDs hold different views on major fundamentals. Ignoring rhetoric and egos. My starting point is that they both in fact advocate the good orderly running of the post 1945 social democratic state, while neither suggest a method of adequately paying for it.

    I suspect environment/net zero would be the largest real difference.

    But do they differ more than, say Corbyn and Streeting differ, within the same party?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    MattW said:

    FPT for @Cookie

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    Off thread, but just to get off my chest:

    Just been to my daughter's primary school carol concert. I was somewhat ambivalent towards it. Obviously seeing my daughter singing was nice. But it did not leave me feeling Christmassy.

    I'm fairly grumpy about enforced Christianity, but I'm prepared to make compromises at Christmas. I find it weird to celebrate the Northern European midwinter with imagery from the Middle East, but actually the whole cycle of a carol concert - a huge gothic church outside which the skies are dark and the night is cold; Once in Royal David's City (with the first verse sung by a solo soprano) through to Hark the Herald Angels Sing; interspersed with readings from the gospel of St, Matthew (I think?), King James edition does feel suitably Christmas. I like it. I like the music and the poetry of the language. I like the familiarity of the ritual. I like the fact that this has been an English Christmas for 400 years.

    But this primary school carol concert was not that. It was Away in a Manger (fine, but speed up) plus eight songs I did not know but which felt like they had been produced by ChatGPT given the prompt "please produce a turgid, anodyne Christmas song about how wonderful Jesus/God is." It was baffling that anyone could have written any of these pieces and thought them a worthwhile addition to the cannon. Some of them had a sax solo. And it also felt slightly uncomfortable. I don't think one child in 20 at that school has the sort of positive feelings about God or Jesus that the songs feebly attempted to encourage. It's not a CofE school. 30% of the school is Asian or North African. I don't want to come across all woke, but it was hard to see what function this was fulfilling.

    I'm not saying there can't be religion in a school Christmas performance, but it can't be all there is. You also need tradition, or humour, or musical excellence, or, well, something to make it worthwhile.

    What were the songs, out of interest? (Two or three titles would be enough.)

    Schools with no basis in it trying to perform religion sometimes does not work well - it can be a kind of dad-dancing, like an English person trying to talk French, which they stopped learning at age 12, from memory, 30 years later.

    Equally it can sometimes be a carol concert not meeting befuddled audience expectations.

    (That's the skeptical side, it can also be good - or others have a different set of expectations and experiences.)

    Tricky stuff :smile: . Have you gone a-wassailing yet, this year?
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:
    We'll sing the story of Christmas
    Something special
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.]
    Away in a Manger
    The Gift
    Shepherd's Calypso [done with some skill by the choir, this, to be fair].
    That First Christmas
    Ring Out
    Child in a Manger Born

    But yes - Dad dancing exactly.

    I don't tend to wassail. Too self conscious about singing. But I'm not averse to others doing it, when done well.

    (Incidentally, I recently found out the original meaning of the a- suffix. It means to go on and on. i.e. in this case a lot of wassailing. It then got coopted by poets for use when an extra syllable is needed.)
    Thanks for posting.

    I've had a look. It's a tricky event to balance because you need easy to participate for all ages, impress parents, let the choir show-off, not annoy anyone TOO much, perhaps even not be so traditional as to be seen to be 'promoting religion' and so on. It can work well or badly, and differently for different people.

    Notes:
    ----------
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:

    We'll sing the story of ChristmasThis is Usonian immediately post-WW2, so vaguely Bing Crosby sort of time.
    Something special Is this CBeebies? It is a programme with a "Hello Hello" song theme.
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.] Not sure on that one. The Home Alone version is everywhere.
    Away in a Manger Known, but it's Usonian late Victorian "Meek and Mild" nonsense, that really really irritates me.
    The Gift Again lots of ones called this.
    Shepherd's Calypso That's here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxRVfxvZjE.
    That First Christmas I like this one
    Ring Out The Bells Ring Out? I have an inkling this may be Ukrainian originally, but they would probably have told you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_of_the_Bells has the main theme you would recognise if it is the correct thing.

    Child in a Manger BornThis is modern, from a British couple called Mark and Helen Johnson, who specialise in music for assemblies, schools, churches etc - since 1989.
    ----------

    It's always interesting what comforts or provokes. I've been across many traditions, and take a 1662 Anglican to a Pentecostal event, or vice versa, or a traditional Gospel Hall Protestant to a charismatic (say hands-up evangelical) do, or vice versa, and it can either be embraced as "different and interesting" or can make someone be very diffident, or even be repelled. Attachments to style run very deep, because the meaning runs very deep for the individuals. If something is not what we expect, it can be challenging.

    It's particularly fun that typically black people clap OFF the beat, and white people clap ON the beat. That can cause chaos for a bit.

    I quite like silence sometimes :smile: .

    COTB featured, of course, in Home Alone.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0yFJj_vHg

    Probably what gave John Williams the idea for the Harry Potter theme.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,054
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @Cookie

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    Off thread, but just to get off my chest:

    Just been to my daughter's primary school carol concert. I was somewhat ambivalent towards it. Obviously seeing my daughter singing was nice. But it did not leave me feeling Christmassy.

    I'm fairly grumpy about enforced Christianity, but I'm prepared to make compromises at Christmas. I find it weird to celebrate the Northern European midwinter with imagery from the Middle East, but actually the whole cycle of a carol concert - a huge gothic church outside which the skies are dark and the night is cold; Once in Royal David's City (with the first verse sung by a solo soprano) through to Hark the Herald Angels Sing; interspersed with readings from the gospel of St, Matthew (I think?), King James edition does feel suitably Christmas. I like it. I like the music and the poetry of the language. I like the familiarity of the ritual. I like the fact that this has been an English Christmas for 400 years.

    But this primary school carol concert was not that. It was Away in a Manger (fine, but speed up) plus eight songs I did not know but which felt like they had been produced by ChatGPT given the prompt "please produce a turgid, anodyne Christmas song about how wonderful Jesus/God is." It was baffling that anyone could have written any of these pieces and thought them a worthwhile addition to the cannon. Some of them had a sax solo. And it also felt slightly uncomfortable. I don't think one child in 20 at that school has the sort of positive feelings about God or Jesus that the songs feebly attempted to encourage. It's not a CofE school. 30% of the school is Asian or North African. I don't want to come across all woke, but it was hard to see what function this was fulfilling.

    I'm not saying there can't be religion in a school Christmas performance, but it can't be all there is. You also need tradition, or humour, or musical excellence, or, well, something to make it worthwhile.

    What were the songs, out of interest? (Two or three titles would be enough.)

    Schools with no basis in it trying to perform religion sometimes does not work well - it can be a kind of dad-dancing, like an English person trying to talk French, which they stopped learning at age 12, from memory, 30 years later.

    Equally it can sometimes be a carol concert not meeting befuddled audience expectations.

    (That's the skeptical side, it can also be good - or others have a different set of expectations and experiences.)

    Tricky stuff :smile: . Have you gone a-wassailing yet, this year?
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:
    We'll sing the story of Christmas
    Something special
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.]
    Away in a Manger
    The Gift
    Shepherd's Calypso [done with some skill by the choir, this, to be fair].
    That First Christmas
    Ring Out
    Child in a Manger Born

    But yes - Dad dancing exactly.

    I don't tend to wassail. Too self conscious about singing. But I'm not averse to others doing it, when done well.

    (Incidentally, I recently found out the original meaning of the a- suffix. It means to go on and on. i.e. in this case a lot of wassailing. It then got coopted by poets for use when an extra syllable is needed.)
    Thanks for posting.

    I've had a look. It's a tricky event to balance because you need easy to participate for all ages, impress parents, let the choir show-off, not annoy anyone TOO much, perhaps even not be so traditional as to be seen to be 'promoting religion' and so on. It can work well or badly, and differently for different people.

    Notes:
    ----------
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:

    We'll sing the story of ChristmasThis is Usonian immediately post-WW2, so vaguely Bing Crosby sort of time.
    Something special Is this CBeebies? It is a programme with a "Hello Hello" song theme.
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.] Not sure on that one. The Home Alone version is everywhere.
    Away in a Manger Known, but it's Usonian late Victorian "Meek and Mild" nonsense, that really really irritates me.
    The Gift Again lots of ones called this.
    Shepherd's Calypso That's here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxRVfxvZjE.
    That First Christmas I like this one
    Ring Out The Bells Ring Out? I have an inkling this may be Ukrainian originally, but they would probably have told you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_of_the_Bells has the main theme you would recognise if it is the correct thing.

    Child in a Manger BornThis is modern, from a British couple called Mark and Helen Johnson, who specialise in music for assemblies, schools, churches etc - since 1989.
    ----------

    It's always interesting what comforts or provokes. I've been across many traditions, and take a 1662 Anglican to a Pentecostal event, or vice versa, or a traditional Gospel Hall Protestant to a charismatic (say hands-up evangelical) do, or vice versa, and it can either be embraced as "different and interesting" or can make someone be very diffident, or even be repelled. Attachments to style run very deep, because the meaning runs very deep for the individuals. If something is not what we expect, it can be challenging.

    It's particularly fun that typically black people clap OFF the beat, and white people clap ON the beat. That can cause chaos for a bit.

    I quite like silence sometimes :smile: .

    COTB featured, of course, in Home Alone.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0yFJj_vHg

    Probably what gave John Williams the idea for the Harry Potter theme.
    My wife and daughter saw Home Alone at the Usher Hall this week with a live orchestra doing the music and a choir doing that song in particular. They said it was brilliant.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,815
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    The one to watch will be the outcome of the Scottish elections in 2026.

    It'll be a muddle but I reckon we'll see an SNP/Labour coalition. You read it first here.

    (They both agree on pretty well everything bar Indy, and that will off the table as there won't be a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood. And no other combination will get anywhere near to a working majority.)

    Doubt it very much. The Bain Principle still applies. Look at Edinburgh where Labour are one of the smaller parties yet insist on ruling [edit] with the support of everyone down to Shug the Easter Road Jakie and his wee dug rather than allow the SNP to lead as the largest party.

    The current tension between Labour HQ and the locals having their chain yanked either directly or by everuone watching won't help.

    I'd expect a minority Labour government if the largest party, or second largest party, with the support of Reform.
    Interesting. You really reckon Reform would back Labour? Hmm. Not sure what Nige would say about that.

    My reckoning is that Sarwar will be desperate to get into Govt as Deputy FM, and Swinney won't be averse to staying on. They'll do a deal. There is a sort of precedent - Labour/Plaid in Wales.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,180
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    The one to watch will be the outcome of the Scottish elections in 2026.

    It'll be a muddle but I reckon we'll see an SNP/Labour coalition. You read it first here.

    (They both agree on pretty well everything bar Indy, and that will off the table as there won't be a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood. And no other combination will get anywhere near to a working majority.)

    Doubt it very much. The Bain Principle still applies. Look at Edinburgh where Labour are one of the smaller parties yet insist on ruling [edit] with the support of everyone down to Shug the Easter Road Jakie and his wee dug rather than allow the SNP to lead as the largest party.

    The current tension between Labour HQ and the locals having their chain yanked either directly or by everuone watching won't help.

    I'd expect a minority Labour government if the largest party, or second largest party, with the support of Reform.
    Plus it would remove BBC Scotland’s entire raison d’être.

    ‘You mean that the EssEnnPee…aren’t bad?’
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,054
    Last thought for just now. I have never believed in capital punishment but fuck. Driving home tonight listening to what happened to that little girl. Holding her down and burning her with an iron. I felt sick. If only there was a hell for them to burn in. Absolute bastards.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    A fairly convincing explanation that


    1. The drones are real (amidst many misidentified planes etc)
    2. They are American, they are "military", and they are looking for something
    3. It is very possibly radioactive material which went missing in New Jersey on December 2

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1869041570080505928
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,396
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @Cookie

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    Off thread, but just to get off my chest:

    Just been to my daughter's primary school carol concert. I was somewhat ambivalent towards it. Obviously seeing my daughter singing was nice. But it did not leave me feeling Christmassy.

    I'm fairly grumpy about enforced Christianity, but I'm prepared to make compromises at Christmas. I find it weird to celebrate the Northern European midwinter with imagery from the Middle East, but actually the whole cycle of a carol concert - a huge gothic church outside which the skies are dark and the night is cold; Once in Royal David's City (with the first verse sung by a solo soprano) through to Hark the Herald Angels Sing; interspersed with readings from the gospel of St, Matthew (I think?), King James edition does feel suitably Christmas. I like it. I like the music and the poetry of the language. I like the familiarity of the ritual. I like the fact that this has been an English Christmas for 400 years.

    But this primary school carol concert was not that. It was Away in a Manger (fine, but speed up) plus eight songs I did not know but which felt like they had been produced by ChatGPT given the prompt "please produce a turgid, anodyne Christmas song about how wonderful Jesus/God is." It was baffling that anyone could have written any of these pieces and thought them a worthwhile addition to the cannon. Some of them had a sax solo. And it also felt slightly uncomfortable. I don't think one child in 20 at that school has the sort of positive feelings about God or Jesus that the songs feebly attempted to encourage. It's not a CofE school. 30% of the school is Asian or North African. I don't want to come across all woke, but it was hard to see what function this was fulfilling.

    I'm not saying there can't be religion in a school Christmas performance, but it can't be all there is. You also need tradition, or humour, or musical excellence, or, well, something to make it worthwhile.

    What were the songs, out of interest? (Two or three titles would be enough.)

    Schools with no basis in it trying to perform religion sometimes does not work well - it can be a kind of dad-dancing, like an English person trying to talk French, which they stopped learning at age 12, from memory, 30 years later.

    Equally it can sometimes be a carol concert not meeting befuddled audience expectations.

    (That's the skeptical side, it can also be good - or others have a different set of expectations and experiences.)

    Tricky stuff :smile: . Have you gone a-wassailing yet, this year?
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:
    We'll sing the story of Christmas
    Something special
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.]
    Away in a Manger
    The Gift
    Shepherd's Calypso [done with some skill by the choir, this, to be fair].
    That First Christmas
    Ring Out
    Child in a Manger Born

    But yes - Dad dancing exactly.

    I don't tend to wassail. Too self conscious about singing. But I'm not averse to others doing it, when done well.

    (Incidentally, I recently found out the original meaning of the a- suffix. It means to go on and on. i.e. in this case a lot of wassailing. It then got coopted by poets for use when an extra syllable is needed.)
    Thanks for posting.

    I've had a look. It's a tricky event to balance because you need easy to participate for all ages, impress parents, let the choir show-off, not annoy anyone TOO much, perhaps even not be so traditional as to be seen to be 'promoting religion' and so on. It can work well or badly, and differently for different people.

    Notes:
    ----------
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:

    We'll sing the story of ChristmasThis is Usonian immediately post-WW2, so vaguely Bing Crosby sort of time.
    Something special Is this CBeebies? It is a programme with a "Hello Hello" song theme.
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.] Not sure on that one. The Home Alone version is everywhere.
    Away in a Manger Known, but it's Usonian late Victorian "Meek and Mild" nonsense, that really really irritates me.
    The Gift Again lots of ones called this.
    Shepherd's Calypso That's here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxRVfxvZjE.
    That First Christmas I like this one
    Ring Out The Bells Ring Out? I have an inkling this may be Ukrainian originally, but they would probably have told you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_of_the_Bells has the main theme you would recognise if it is the correct thing.

    Child in a Manger BornThis is modern, from a British couple called Mark and Helen Johnson, who specialise in music for assemblies, schools, churches etc - since 1989.
    ----------

    It's always interesting what comforts or provokes. I've been across many traditions, and take a 1662 Anglican to a Pentecostal event, or vice versa, or a traditional Gospel Hall Protestant to a charismatic (say hands-up evangelical) do, or vice versa, and it can either be embraced as "different and interesting" or can make someone be very diffident, or even be repelled. Attachments to style run very deep, because the meaning runs very deep for the individuals. If something is not what we expect, it can be challenging.

    It's particularly fun that typically black people clap OFF the beat, and white people clap ON the beat. That can cause chaos for a bit.

    I quite like silence sometimes :smile: .

    COTB featured, of course, in Home Alone.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0yFJj_vHg

    Probably what gave John Williams the idea for the Harry Potter theme.
    My wife and daughter saw Home Alone at the Usher Hall this week with a live orchestra doing the music and a choir doing that song in particular. They said it was brilliant.
    It is a remarkable tune, which is why Williams appropriated parts of it (not a criticism - all composers do this) for a couple of his other works.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,815
    I'm wondering what Sir Keir has next in mind for the Oldies.

    Withdraw their bus passes?

    Supertax on zimmer frames?

    Evict the Chelsea Pensioners?

    Anything I've missed?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,913
    Short point on Letby development started yesterday. L's new lawyer says a key witness (Evans) has changed his mind about the cause of death of 3 of the babies.

    Today, under the headline 'Expert denies he changed his mind' the expert describes yesterday's suggestion as:

    "unsubstantiated, unfounded, inaccurate", "reflecting clear prejudice and bias".

    Despite the BBC headline, no actual denial is reported. The absence of a denial is really the only interesting bit of the story, and the BBC missed it altogether.

    As to the reality, I have no idea, like everyone else. But it is one to watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6l0dynz7zo
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,061
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    It would be an interesting exercise to actually try to list the big ticket items where Reform and LDs hold different views on major fundamentals. Ignoring rhetoric and egos. My starting point is that they both in fact advocate the good orderly running of the post 1945 social democratic state, while neither suggest a method of adequately paying for it.

    I suspect environment/net zero would be the largest real difference.

    But do they differ more than, say Corbyn and Streeting differ, within the same party?
    They do differ because a lib dem will tell you on the door step that the national manifesto isn't serious on a subject if they think they will get a vote. At least corbyn's labour stood by their manifesto
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,010
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    Well, fragmentation of voting blocs combined with FPTP is going to lead to a *lot* of interesting results, and potentially some very nonproportional ones.

    If the Greens make progress at the expense of Labour, and Reform at the expense of everyone, while the LibDems continue to pick up mid-teens vote shares very efficiently, then almost any result is possible.

    Here's my completely unlikely (but entirely possible) prediction: the only viable two party coalition following the 2029 elections will be a Reform-LibDem one. (Which obviously won't happen.)
    The Lib Dems have form for jumping into bed with unusual partners. The draw of Government might be too enticing. Even if five years later they implode-again.
    It would be an interesting exercise to actually try to list the big ticket items where Reform and LDs hold different views on major fundamentals. Ignoring rhetoric and egos. My starting point is that they both in fact advocate the good orderly running of the post 1945 social democratic state, while neither suggest a method of adequately paying for it.

    I suspect environment/net zero would be the largest real difference.

    But do they differ more than, say Corbyn and Streeting differ, within the same party?
    I'm inclined to the view that the main Reform policy platform is that they don't have a coherent one, but I'm willing to be educated.

    On LibDem vs RefUK:

    Internationalism vs nativism (seen in attitude to EU, attitude to immigration).

    Policies around the welfare state. RefUK seem to be to have a downer on those they would regard as 'undeserving poor', but I'm not sure on exact policy.

    Policies around Transgender questions. The dominant policy of the LDs seems to me to be quite dogmatic against the gender-critical lobby, but I'm not all over the detail. My impression is that RefUK are quite traditionalist, but I'm also quite tentative on that.

    Policies around Israel / Palestine?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,983

    Reform are basically now British Trump party after todays take-over meeting with Musk.

    Will the British, or at least English, decide to copy their American cousins and tear down the whole house?

    I fear they will.

    Starmer has four years to prove normal politics delivers.

    What makes you think they will?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,487
    DavidL said:

    Last thought for just now. I have never believed in capital punishment but fuck. Driving home tonight listening to what happened to that little girl. Holding her down and burning her with an iron. I felt sick. If only there was a hell for them to burn in. Absolute bastards.

    Indeed.
    Register of home schooling and an end to the religion of "parental choice" overriding all things in education.
    Would be of more practical use.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,951
    Leon said:

    A fairly convincing explanation that


    1. The drones are real (amidst many misidentified planes etc)
    2. They are American, they are "military", and they are looking for something
    3. It is very possibly radioactive material which went missing in New Jersey on December 2

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1869041570080505928

    Why have them in the UK then, it hasn't come here? Bloody hope not at any rate.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,010
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @Cookie

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    Off thread, but just to get off my chest:

    Just been to my daughter's primary school carol concert. I was somewhat ambivalent towards it. Obviously seeing my daughter singing was nice. But it did not leave me feeling Christmassy.

    I'm fairly grumpy about enforced Christianity, but I'm prepared to make compromises at Christmas. I find it weird to celebrate the Northern European midwinter with imagery from the Middle East, but actually the whole cycle of a carol concert - a huge gothic church outside which the skies are dark and the night is cold; Once in Royal David's City (with the first verse sung by a solo soprano) through to Hark the Herald Angels Sing; interspersed with readings from the gospel of St, Matthew (I think?), King James edition does feel suitably Christmas. I like it. I like the music and the poetry of the language. I like the familiarity of the ritual. I like the fact that this has been an English Christmas for 400 years.

    But this primary school carol concert was not that. It was Away in a Manger (fine, but speed up) plus eight songs I did not know but which felt like they had been produced by ChatGPT given the prompt "please produce a turgid, anodyne Christmas song about how wonderful Jesus/God is." It was baffling that anyone could have written any of these pieces and thought them a worthwhile addition to the cannon. Some of them had a sax solo. And it also felt slightly uncomfortable. I don't think one child in 20 at that school has the sort of positive feelings about God or Jesus that the songs feebly attempted to encourage. It's not a CofE school. 30% of the school is Asian or North African. I don't want to come across all woke, but it was hard to see what function this was fulfilling.

    I'm not saying there can't be religion in a school Christmas performance, but it can't be all there is. You also need tradition, or humour, or musical excellence, or, well, something to make it worthwhile.

    What were the songs, out of interest? (Two or three titles would be enough.)

    Schools with no basis in it trying to perform religion sometimes does not work well - it can be a kind of dad-dancing, like an English person trying to talk French, which they stopped learning at age 12, from memory, 30 years later.

    Equally it can sometimes be a carol concert not meeting befuddled audience expectations.

    (That's the skeptical side, it can also be good - or others have a different set of expectations and experiences.)

    Tricky stuff :smile: . Have you gone a-wassailing yet, this year?
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:
    We'll sing the story of Christmas
    Something special
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.]
    Away in a Manger
    The Gift
    Shepherd's Calypso [done with some skill by the choir, this, to be fair].
    That First Christmas
    Ring Out
    Child in a Manger Born

    But yes - Dad dancing exactly.

    I don't tend to wassail. Too self conscious about singing. But I'm not averse to others doing it, when done well.

    (Incidentally, I recently found out the original meaning of the a- suffix. It means to go on and on. i.e. in this case a lot of wassailing. It then got coopted by poets for use when an extra syllable is needed.)
    Thanks for posting.

    I've had a look. It's a tricky event to balance because you need easy to participate for all ages, impress parents, let the choir show-off, not annoy anyone TOO much, perhaps even not be so traditional as to be seen to be 'promoting religion' and so on. It can work well or badly, and differently for different people.

    Notes:
    ----------
    Ha - I knew keeping the programme would help! The songs were:

    We'll sing the story of ChristmasThis is Usonian immediately post-WW2, so vaguely Bing Crosby sort of time.
    Something special Is this CBeebies? It is a programme with a "Hello Hello" song theme.
    O Holy Night [I thought I'd recognise this, but I didn't. It wasn't the song out of Home Alone.] Not sure on that one. The Home Alone version is everywhere.
    Away in a Manger Known, but it's Usonian late Victorian "Meek and Mild" nonsense, that really really irritates me.
    The Gift Again lots of ones called this.
    Shepherd's Calypso That's here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxRVfxvZjE.
    That First Christmas I like this one
    Ring Out The Bells Ring Out? I have an inkling this may be Ukrainian originally, but they would probably have told you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_of_the_Bells has the main theme you would recognise if it is the correct thing.

    Child in a Manger BornThis is modern, from a British couple called Mark and Helen Johnson, who specialise in music for assemblies, schools, churches etc - since 1989.
    ----------

    It's always interesting what comforts or provokes. I've been across many traditions, and take a 1662 Anglican to a Pentecostal event, or vice versa, or a traditional Gospel Hall Protestant to a charismatic (say hands-up evangelical) do, or vice versa, and it can either be embraced as "different and interesting" or can make someone be very diffident, or even be repelled. Attachments to style run very deep, because the meaning runs very deep for the individuals. If something is not what we expect, it can be challenging.

    It's particularly fun that typically black people clap OFF the beat, and white people clap ON the beat. That can cause chaos for a bit.

    I quite like silence sometimes :smile: .

    COTB featured, of course, in Home Alone.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0yFJj_vHg

    Probably what gave John Williams the idea for the Harry Potter theme.
    I've never seen Home Alone, nor any complete Harry Potter !
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