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Like Thatcher in her first term Starmer finds himself third in the polls – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Andy_JS said:

    "Six in ten French people are in favour of Emmanuel Macron resigning as president, according to a new poll conducted by Odaxa Backbone for Le Figaro newspaper.

    “Only senior citizens are against,” said Gaël Sliman, president of Odoxa, adding: “The social categories most in favour are the working classes (72 per cent) and young people (70 per cent).”

    The poll also suggests the French see ousted prime minister Michel Barnier as “collateral damage”, with only 4 per cent of those polled holding him personally responsible for the crisis - compared with 40 per cent who blame the French president."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/05/france-government-collapse-emmanuel-macron-barnier-le-pen/

    They can think what they want, Macron's term in office only ends in 2027 and he can't run for a third term anyway
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    rkrkrk said:

    building 1.5 million homes in England and fast-tracking planning decisions on at least 150 major infrastructure projects

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791z8vg0vxo

    Infrastructure like masts too please, Keir. Essential.

    I'm pretty worried about the 1.5m homes target. If uou really want to hit it, get councils building - don't just rely on developers and the market.
    If that includes the normal level of house building, that’s what? 300K over 5 years!
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 4,089
    edited December 5
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I'm liking Johnson looking at those odds.
    I'd have a tenner on Darren Jones please
    I've liked Darren Jones from the start. A smart, well presented and seemingly sound chap. But VERY inexperienced. Perhaps that's an advantage?
    I agree - he comes across as sensible and principled on the media, and is one of the few politicians who actually appears to think about what he has been asked. He will have done a lot of thinking behind the budget and financial strategy.

    But I wouldn’t back him as a future leader - some people are destined to be in the top team but not the top job, and he is clearly one such.
    He'd be a good chancellor in a Streeting government.

    I still think in 2028 it will be a Streeting coronation and they'll go into 2029 with a different leader.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    Why? The rate of child casualty rates is not noticeably higher around schools. Most kids get hit around where they live, or on the way to school.
    Maybe take it up with the Welsh government and their local authorities then as they are about to reinstate many 30mph roads across Wales
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,358
    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The trouble with Starmer absolutely ISN'T lack of va va voom. Nobody could sell this turd sandwich of a Government.

    Politics watchers, especially those on the left it seems to me, are constantly on the lookout for someone more telegenic, better back story, better communicator, more gutsy and working class, but these days, people don't want optics, they want to prosper. You can't heat your house with optics.

    Sir Bellend is in the business of making people poorer. His policies set out to make people poorer. They will raise the price of energy, raise the price of having a car, raise the price of housing, raise the costs of doing business. That's quite apart from his bans on things and ugly disregard for free speech. Any party that wishes to survive will turn away from these policies quick sticks, but Labour has doubled-down. They will rightly be booted out hopefully never to return.

    How do you explain Boris Johnson? Clearly all optics, no substance yet he won a decisive majority... the Tories were in power for a decade and consistently made us poorer yet kept winning elections.
    Two of those elections were versus Corbyn, and one versus Ed. David Miliband probably would have won easily.
    Maybe David would have won, but only because he was more telegenic and charismatic. In terms of substance/policy you'd have to concede not much difference between them.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279

    Who says Starmer lacks charisma

    Political joke of the year, will become a generational classic

    Perfectly delivered cuiing to the quick.

    "She (Badenoch) thinks working a few shifts at McDonald's working class.... If I come here (Pinewood Studios) a few more times I'll be the next 007"

    See you are working overtime tonight

    Unfortunately no amount of overtime will change the publics perception of Starmer
    Flexible working boosts productivity.

    Walking the walk

    Immediate action

    No transformation without perspiration
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,894
    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Minimum qualification these days to lead the workers.
  • Leon's ChatGPT subscription must be expensive, this left wing stuff isn't cheap.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    The trouble with Starmer absolutely ISN'T lack of va va voom. Nobody could sell this turd sandwich of a Government.

    Politics watchers, especially those on the left it seems to me, are constantly on the lookout for someone more telegenic, better back story, better communicator, more gutsy and working class, but these days, people don't want optics, they want to prosper. You can't heat your house with optics.

    Sir Bellend is in the business of making people poorer. His policies set out to make people poorer. They will raise the price of energy, raise the price of having a car, raise the price of housing, raise the costs of doing business. That's quite apart from his bans on things and ugly disregard for free speech. Any party that wishes to survive will turn away from these policies quick sticks, but Labour has doubled-down. They will rightly be booted out hopefully never to return.

    To have an offer to the voters, Labour will need to move away from their broken business model, of piling too much tax and debt on the private sector to give to an ever-voracious public sector.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Senator Joni Ernst, Republican of Iowa, declined on Thursday to commit to supporting Pete Hegseth, President-elect Donald J. Trump’s choice for defense secretary, after a high-stakes private meeting with him on Wednesday that came as Mr. Trump weighed dumping him.

    NY Times blog
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 5

    The solution to productivity is not to work more hours. We already work the most hours in Europe.

    We don't, the Greeks, the Poles, the Maltese, Slovaks and Czechs, Portuguese, Latvians and Lithuanians and all the Balkan nations work more hours per week now than the British
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/280763/average-working-hours-uk/

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20240530-1#:~:text=A closer look at EU,) and Germany (34.0).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    Why? The rate of child casualty rates is not noticeably higher around schools. Most kids get hit around where they live, or on the way to school.
    Maybe take it up with the Welsh government and their local authorities then as they are about to reinstate many 30mph roads across Wales
    I shall launch a petition.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279
    GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Trouble is, Starmer is NOT Thatcher, lol! 😂

    Thank God

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,358

    rkrkrk said:

    building 1.5 million homes in England and fast-tracking planning decisions on at least 150 major infrastructure projects

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791z8vg0vxo

    Infrastructure like masts too please, Keir. Essential.

    I'm pretty worried about the 1.5m homes target. If uou really want to hit it, get councils building - don't just rely on developers and the market.
    If that includes the normal level of house building, that’s what? 300K over 5 years!
    I think we managed 212k last year. There's obviously quite a lag to building homes.
  • Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
  • Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Of course in town areas and where it is justified

    I am not against this policy just Drakeford's implementation which has been discredited by his own government

    You will see in the new year the announcements by the local authorities of the changes back to 30mph and they will be sensible
  • GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Trouble is, Starmer is NOT Thatcher, lol! 😂

    Thank God

    Both are lawyers, both have troubled relationships with their predecessors (as party leaders), both were written off early in their first terms, both closed the mines, the comparisons go on.

    Starmer is the new Thatcher.
  • GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Trouble is, Starmer is NOT Thatcher, lol! 😂

    Thank God

    Both are lawyers, both have troubled relationships with their predecessors (as party leaders), both were written off early in their first terms, both closed the mines, the comparisons go on.

    Starmer is the new Thatcher.
    TheScreamingEagles is the ultimate troll.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/hzeffman/status/1864676093073997846

    One of the most striking themes in Keir Starmer’s speech today — his frustration with Whitehall

    For weeks I’ve been asking Labour people what they make of their time in government and one sentiment comes up again and again:

    “Dominic Cummings was right”

    Can't say I'm surprised. The question is how and why they became so ineffective.
    It's a poor workman that blames his tools (don't titter).
  • Justin Welby has faced strong criticism from colleagues and abuse survivors for the “frivolous tone” of his farewell speech in the Lords, his first public appearance since resigning as Archbishop of Canterbury over an abuse scandal.

    The archbishop, who formally leaves the role on January 6, told peers in a debate on housing and homelessness that he “had to stand down” because his was the only “head that rolls well enough” for the church’s failure to tackle abuse.

    He joked about his diary secretary deserving pity because his engagements next year had to be cancelled and about a former archbishop whose head had literally rolled when it was chopped off.

    An abuse victim said he was “dismayed” by the “frivolous tone” of some of the remarks, while the Bishop of Newcastle said she was “deeply disturbed” by his language, calling his tone “unwise to say the very least”.

    The archbishop had told peers that he had no choice but to resign because of the church’s institutional failings, but appeared to downplay his personal responsibility for them.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/justin-welby-says-head-had-to-roll-after-abuse-scandal-dtltnl9t9
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 5

    Justin Welby has faced strong criticism from colleagues and abuse survivors for the “frivolous tone” of his farewell speech in the Lords, his first public appearance since resigning as Archbishop of Canterbury over an abuse scandal.

    The archbishop, who formally leaves the role on January 6, told peers in a debate on housing and homelessness that he “had to stand down” because his was the only “head that rolls well enough” for the church’s failure to tackle abuse.

    He joked about his diary secretary deserving pity because his engagements next year had to be cancelled and about a former archbishop whose head had literally rolled when it was chopped off.

    An abuse victim said he was “dismayed” by the “frivolous tone” of some of the remarks, while the Bishop of Newcastle said she was “deeply disturbed” by his language, calling his tone “unwise to say the very least”.

    The archbishop had told peers that he had no choice but to resign because of the church’s institutional failings, but appeared to downplay his personal responsibility for them.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/justin-welby-says-head-had-to-roll-after-abuse-scandal-dtltnl9t9

    At the end of the day he has gone and probably doesn't care much now. Yes he could have followed up information given to police on Smyth faster but it was the police and CPS who didn't take any action in 2013.

    Smyth was in any case a barrister not a priest, he just ran some evangelical camps, the Bar Council and his chambers must also have some questions to answer? Plus Winchester college from where many of the camp attendees came
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972

    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
    Thankfully not, I live in a city where I can and do leave my wallet and phone on the bar when I use the bathroom.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    Better enjoy it while he can, I went to a dinner recently with Cleverly who did not rule out running for London Mayor next time
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,894
    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    The solution to productivity is not to work more hours. We already work the most hours in Europe.

    Hours at work perhaps - hours actually working, I'd be amazed.

    I regard myself as a very good employee - I really do work a lot nearly all of the time that my employer askes me to do so. Often much more. But even I as this self-anointed paragon, I probably only actually work about 70% of that time.
    Whereas I can confidently say that I work 95% of the time I'm at school including break and lunch times. It's why public sector productivity is poorly understood by many.
    Well something doesn't add up here. Perhaps as a teacher you feel you're working all the time. I can see that.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    Omnium said:

    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    The solution to productivity is not to work more hours. We already work the most hours in Europe.

    Hours at work perhaps - hours actually working, I'd be amazed.

    I regard myself as a very good employee - I really do work a lot nearly all of the time that my employer askes me to do so. Often much more. But even I as this self-anointed paragon, I probably only actually work about 70% of that time.
    Whereas I can confidently say that I work 95% of the time I'm at school including break and lunch times. It's why public sector productivity is poorly understood by many.
    Well something doesn't add up here. Perhaps as a teacher you feel you're working all the time. I can see that.
    Why doesn't it add up?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Trouble is, Starmer is NOT Thatcher, lol! 😂

    Thank God

    Both are lawyers, both have troubled relationships with their predecessors (as party leaders), both were written off early in their first terms, both closed the mines, the comparisons go on.

    Starmer is the new Thatcher.
    No he is the new Ted Heath, on a good day
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811
    HYUFD said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    Better enjoy it while he can, I went to a dinner recently with Cleverly who did not rule out running for London Mayor next time
    Could Sadiq win a fourth term? With Labour still in power at Westminster? I wouldn't be betting on that. No wonder Cleverly is interested.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/hzeffman/status/1864676093073997846

    One of the most striking themes in Keir Starmer’s speech today — his frustration with Whitehall

    For weeks I’ve been asking Labour people what they make of their time in government and one sentiment comes up again and again:

    “Dominic Cummings was right”

    LOL, some of us have been saying this for years.

    Also, the US are about to put a bunch of outsiders into a serious project to cut the size and scope of the bureaucracy, which if it works will be transformative for that country and attract investment that would otherwise end up elsewhere. Such as the UK.
    If Elon takes the same approach as at Twitter then it could easily be transformative, transforming the USA into a failed State.

    It may well put a lot of investment our way.
    If the US fails, everyone fails.

    When the Smoot-Hawley tariffs came into effect, other countries responded and world trade collapsed... everyone suffered.

    Relative outperformance was still shit.

    America was a surplus nation then. You can’t compare it with the current situation.
    Of course you can compare it to the current situation.

    If every country tries to protect exports via the use of retaliatory tariffs - as is entirely possible - then we will all get poorer.

    It is deeply naive to assume (a) that free trade is the cause of America's trade deficits, and (b) that tariffs are a consequence free way to solve the issue.

    For what it's worth, I blame Germany and China at least as much as the US for the predicament: they should be consuming a lot more of what they produce, and they should be implementing pro-consumption policies. (Sadly the "Swabian housewife attitude still infects German politics.)
    Talk about being deeply naive! You seem to have completely bought into the propaganda about free trade allowing everyone to get rich together as if we can all live in the 1990s forever, but the reality is that economics cannot be separated from politics. China is intentionally acquiring a dominant position in order to assert its political goals.

    Germany in absolute terms has one of the highest rates of per capita consumption in the EU. It's perverse to think you can solve anything by having them buy more of their own cars.
    "Germany in absolute terms has one of the highest rates of per capita consumption in the EU."

    So what? It's consumption relative to income that determines your trade balance.
    Of course but it's a form of denial to think that you can redress the balance by increasing their domestic consumption. You need to destroy Germany's productive capacity and move it somewhere else if that's your goal.
    It's not denial at all.

    A country's trade balance is a consequence of whether it is consuming more than it is producing or not. If you you consumer more than you produce, you run a trade deficit. And vice versa.

    There are *many* countries where household consumption is higher than Germany's. For example, Americans buy 0.05 cars per capita (i.e. one new car for every twenty Americans), while for Germans it is 0.03 (i.e. one new car for every thirty three Germans). If Germans refreshed their cars as often as Americans, it would soak up a significant portion of the German trade surplus.

    The problem is that certain countries - *cough* Germany *cough* - have fetishized saving. And that causes imbalances in the world (as well as making the Eurozone fundamentally unstable.)

    Remember: for every saver there has to be a borrower. Saving and borrowing are flip sides of the same coin. If I am deferring consumption, you need to be bringing it forward.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,894
    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    The solution to productivity is not to work more hours. We already work the most hours in Europe.

    Hours at work perhaps - hours actually working, I'd be amazed.

    I regard myself as a very good employee - I really do work a lot nearly all of the time that my employer askes me to do so. Often much more. But even I as this self-anointed paragon, I probably only actually work about 70% of that time.
    Whereas I can confidently say that I work 95% of the time I'm at school including break and lunch times. It's why public sector productivity is poorly understood by many.
    Well something doesn't add up here. Perhaps as a teacher you feel you're working all the time. I can see that.
    Why doesn't it add up?
    Well frankly because I don't believe it's possible to actually work 95% of the time you're supposed to work. At least not in a non-production line sort of a job.

    Teaching of course is a bit different in that you're surrounded by students and to that extent working all the time.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    TOPPING said:

    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.

    Perhaps because we aren't experiencing a pandemic where cases are rising exponentially?

    Shrugs.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
    Thankfully not, I live in a city where I can and do leave my wallet and phone on the bar when I use the bathroom.
    On the other hand, you can't kiss your wife in public.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    Better enjoy it while he can, I went to a dinner recently with Cleverly who did not rule out running for London Mayor next time
    Could Sadiq win a fourth term? With Labour still in power at Westminster? I wouldn't be betting on that. No wonder Cleverly is interested.
    Yes he could but the election will be under FPTP so it could get messy with the winner getting say 24% of the vote.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    HYUFD said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    Better enjoy it while he can, I went to a dinner recently with Cleverly who did not rule out running for London Mayor next time
    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I keep laughing!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Justin Welby inadvertently making a very good case for why he had to resign with such a self-serving resignation speech.

    Where do they find these people?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    In football, fourth tier team Cacereno are leading Atletico Madrid 1-0 at half-time in the Copa del Rey. There might be some betting opportunities wrt this match.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/football/spanish-copa-del-rey/cacereno-v-atletico-madrid-betting-33836029
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    GIN1138 said:

    On topic: Trouble is, Starmer is NOT Thatcher, lol! 😂

    Thank God

    Both are lawyers, both have troubled relationships with their predecessors (as party leaders), both were written off early in their first terms, both closed the mines, the comparisons go on.

    Starmer is the new Thatcher.
    He didn't help to invent an ice-cream which would upset many of us if we were offered it today.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I'm liking Johnson looking at those odds.
    I'd have a tenner on Darren Jones please
    I've liked Darren Jones from the start. A smart, well presented and seemingly sound chap. But VERY inexperienced. Perhaps that's an advantage?
    I agree - he comes across as sensible and principled on the media, and is one of the few politicians who actually appears to think about what he has been asked. He will have done a lot of thinking behind the budget and financial strategy.

    But I wouldn’t back him as a future leader - some people are destined to be in the top team but not the top job, and he is clearly one such.
    He'd be a good chancellor in a Streeting government.

    I still think in 2028 it will be a Streeting coronation and they'll go into 2029 with a different leader.
    You may be right, for all I know. But this was the result in Wes's seat in July.

    General election 2024: Ilford North
    Party Candidate Votes %
    Labour Wes Streeting 15,647 33.4
    Independent Leanne Mohamad 15,119 32.2
    Conservative Kaz Rizvi 9,619 20.5
    Reform UK Alex Wilson 3,621 7.7
    Green Rachel Collinson 1,794 3.8
    Lib Democrats Fraser Coppin 1,088 2.3
    Majority 528
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    maxh said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.

    Perhaps because we aren't experiencing a pandemic where cases are rising exponentially?

    Shrugs.
    The NHS is under more pressure than ever before. So worse now than the lockdown which was designed to "Save the NHS".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Of course in town areas and where it is justified

    I am not against this policy just Drakeford's implementation which has been discredited by his own government

    You will see in the new year the announcements by the local authorities of the changes back to 30mph and they will be sensible
    Just wait for the first people to die. THose responsible won't have anywhere to hide.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    Omnium said:

    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    The solution to productivity is not to work more hours. We already work the most hours in Europe.

    Hours at work perhaps - hours actually working, I'd be amazed.

    I regard myself as a very good employee - I really do work a lot nearly all of the time that my employer askes me to do so. Often much more. But even I as this self-anointed paragon, I probably only actually work about 70% of that time.
    Whereas I can confidently say that I work 95% of the time I'm at school including break and lunch times. It's why public sector productivity is poorly understood by many.
    Well something doesn't add up here. Perhaps as a teacher you feel you're working all the time. I can see that.
    Why doesn't it add up?
    Well frankly because I don't believe it's possible to actually work 95% of the time you're supposed to work. At least not in a non-production line sort of a job.

    Teaching of course is a bit different in that you're surrounded by students and to that extent working all the time.
    I would love for you to shadow me for a day. I think you would be truly shocked.

    (For context I have worked in many other settings. A very rough estimate of the time spent doing productive work in each:
    DfE 20%
    Westland helicopters 50%
    Halcrow 60%
    RSA 50%
    Cornwall Council 20%
    Packing daffodils in a warehouse 80% (it was piece rate)
    FT 10%
    Charity sector 40%
    Consultancy 60% (mandated by billable hours))
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
    Because people have been forced off the roads gradually. Drivers have the same effect as paedophile panics.

    BTW I was nearly run over this afternoon. On the pavement. A driver just wanted to do a U turn without enough room.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
    Thankfully not, I live in a city where I can and do leave my wallet and phone on the bar when I use the bathroom.
    On the other hand, you can't kiss your wife in public.
    It’s not Riyadh or Doha.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    edited December 5

    Justin Welby inadvertently making a very good case for why he had to resign with such a self-serving resignation speech.

    Where do they find these people?

    I am utterly shocked that somebody who is inter alia, privately educated, an alumnus of the University of Cambridge, and a former banker oilman, lacks self awareness and empathy for others.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    TOPPING said:

    maxh said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.

    Perhaps because we aren't experiencing a pandemic where cases are rising exponentially?

    Shrugs.
    The NHS is under more pressure than ever before. So worse now than the lockdown which was designed to "Save the NHS".
    Yes but it was never the current case load that was the problem, it was the predicted future case load that was modelled as exponential growth.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
    I suppose all the additional fat acts as a crumple zone. And people walk a lot slower.

    I think you've finally got me. I concede the battlefield.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    maxh said:

    TOPPING said:

    maxh said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.

    Perhaps because we aren't experiencing a pandemic where cases are rising exponentially?

    Shrugs.
    The NHS is under more pressure than ever before. So worse now than the lockdown which was designed to "Save the NHS".
    Yes but it was never the current case load that was the problem, it was the predicted future case load that was modelled as exponential growth.
    "As modelled"

    Idiot.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
    I suppose all the additional fat acts as a crumple zone. And people walk a lot slower.

    I think you've finally got me. I concede the battlefield.
    No mention of cyclists ...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Is Biden going to preemptively pardon himself before leaving office?

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,471
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
    Thankfully not, I live in a city where I can and do leave my wallet and phone on the bar when I use the bathroom.
    Out of interest, what's the name and address of the bar you mention, and when do you go there?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    I've had exactly the same experience as you.

    So I stay in consultancy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 5
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)

    Taxpayers also pay in the public sector and managers have to ensure projects stay within the budget they provide
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I'm liking Johnson looking at those odds.
    I'd have a tenner on Darren Jones please
    I've liked Darren Jones from the start. A smart, well presented and seemingly sound chap. But VERY inexperienced. Perhaps that's an advantage?
    I agree - he comes across as sensible and principled on the media, and is one of the few politicians who actually appears to think about what he has been asked. He will have done a lot of thinking behind the budget and financial strategy.

    But I wouldn’t back him as a future leader - some people are destined to be in the top team but not the top job, and he is clearly one such.
    He'd be a good chancellor in a Streeting government.

    I still think in 2028 it will be a Streeting coronation and they'll go into 2029 with a different leader.
    You may be right, for all I know. But this was the result in Wes's seat in July.

    General election 2024: Ilford North
    Party Candidate Votes %
    Labour Wes Streeting 15,647 33.4
    Independent Leanne Mohamad 15,119 32.2
    Conservative Kaz Rizvi 9,619 20.5
    Reform UK Alex Wilson 3,621 7.7
    Green Rachel Collinson 1,794 3.8
    Lib Democrats Fraser Coppin 1,088 2.3
    Majority 528
    He would need to squeeze the Con and Reform vote to keep the hard left Independent out
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    HYUFD said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    Better enjoy it while he can, I went to a dinner recently with Cleverly who did not rule out running for London Mayor next time
    He would be a decent candidate.

    By-election if he wins?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    Omnium said:

    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    maxh said:

    Omnium said:

    The solution to productivity is not to work more hours. We already work the most hours in Europe.

    Hours at work perhaps - hours actually working, I'd be amazed.

    I regard myself as a very good employee - I really do work a lot nearly all of the time that my employer askes me to do so. Often much more. But even I as this self-anointed paragon, I probably only actually work about 70% of that time.
    Whereas I can confidently say that I work 95% of the time I'm at school including break and lunch times. It's why public sector productivity is poorly understood by many.
    Well something doesn't add up here. Perhaps as a teacher you feel you're working all the time. I can see that.
    Why doesn't it add up?
    Well frankly because I don't believe it's possible to actually work 95% of the time you're supposed to work. At least not in a non-production line sort of a job.

    Teaching of course is a bit different in that you're surrounded by students and to that extent working all the time.
    In my final (private sector) consulting job l spent around 25% of the time at the cinema. It was a sign to hang up my trilby.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    Better enjoy it while he can, I went to a dinner recently with Cleverly who did not rule out running for London Mayor next time
    He would be a decent candidate.

    By-election if he wins?
    Probably not as the next GE will likely be the same year as the next London Mayoral election anyway
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 4,089
    edited December 5
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
    Thankfully not, I live in a city where I can and do leave my wallet and phone on the bar when I use the bathroom.
    I did that last week, in London.

    Presumably when these things happened under Johnson, they were not his fault?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Is Biden going to preemptively pardon himself before leaving office?

    Pardon Me?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
  • I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,311
    edited December 5

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I'm liking Johnson looking at those odds.
    I'd have a tenner on Darren Jones please
    I've liked Darren Jones from the start. A smart, well presented and seemingly sound chap. But VERY inexperienced. Perhaps that's an advantage?
    I agree - he comes across as sensible and principled on the media, and is one of the few politicians who actually appears to think about what he has been asked. He will have done a lot of thinking behind the budget and financial strategy.

    But I wouldn’t back him as a future leader - some people are destined to be in the top team but not the top job, and he is clearly one such.
    He'd be a good chancellor in a Streeting government.

    I still think in 2028 it will be a Streeting coronation and they'll go into 2029 with a different leader.
    You may be right, for all I know. But this was the result in Wes's seat in July.

    General election 2024: Ilford North
    Party Candidate Votes %
    Labour Wes Streeting 15,647 33.4
    Independent Leanne Mohamad 15,119 32.2
    Conservative Kaz Rizvi 9,619 20.5
    Reform UK Alex Wilson 3,621 7.7
    Green Rachel Collinson 1,794 3.8
    Lib Democrats Fraser Coppin 1,088 2.3
    Majority 528
    Depends on what's going on in Israel really or if there's another conflict in the Middle East that Labour is on the 'wrong side' of. If not, Streeting should be fine.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    ...

    It's Question Time in a couple of hours and, well, what do you know, it's Nigel Farage again.

    Has he reached his thousandth appearance yet?

    BBC will bitterly regret giving all this air time over the years when he becomes PM and ends the licence fee and makes them PBS-lite.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Farage could be a permanent panellist like Alan Davies on QI.
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    It's not even in senior roles, it's all roles that aren't very junior.

    I've got lots of friends coming up now that wouldn't work for the public sector unless their salaries were bumped 30%.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Funny I was challenged in the week to prove Thatchers in popularity before she had the Belgtano sunk??

    My only question is wtf are Find Out Now???

    Why are Labour in 3rd place... Ask Find Out Now.?

    Relevance... NONE

    The student common room is that way ====>
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,676

    ...

    It's Question Time in a couple of hours and, well, what do you know, it's Nigel Farage again.

    Has he reached his thousandth appearance yet?

    BBC will bitterly regret giving all this air time over the years when he becomes PM and ends the licence fee and makes them PBS-lite.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Farage could be a permanent panellist like Alan Davies on QI.
    He's appearing with Alistair Campbell tonight. Could be sparky.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Just copy Norway on everything. They know how to run a society successfully.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    I see weirdo Tim Montgomerie has left the Tories for Reform.

    Does that mean Con Home has become Ref Home? :D
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sadiq Khan to receive a knighthood

    For services to crime?
    Do you live in London?
    Thankfully not, I live in a city where I can and do leave my wallet and phone on the bar when I use the bathroom.
    The pubs have bathrooms? Do you nip off for a shower between pints.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 4,089
    edited December 5
    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916
    GIN1138 said:

    I see weirdo Tim Montgomerie has left the Tories for Reform.

    Does that mean Con Home has become Ref Home? :D

    It has been for months. Comment section in there full of Reform rampers
  • Andy_JS said:

    Just copy Norway on everything. They know how to run a society successfully.

    Higher taxes. But SKS raised one and employers tell us the economy is doomed.

    Personally, I think he should have just put all our taxes.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,030

    It's Question Time in a couple of hours and, well, what do you know, it's Nigel Farage again.

    Has he reached his thousandth appearance yet?

    BBC will bitterly regret giving all this air time over the years when he becomes PM and ends the licence fee and makes them PBS-lite.

    It's the zoomers and alphas that will euthanise the BBC, not Farage.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    GIN1138 said:

    I see weirdo Tim Montgomerie has left the Tories for Reform.

    Does that mean Con Home has become Ref Home? :D

    It has been for months. Comment section in there full of Reform rampers
    And who did you upset to be sent there?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    If they stopped hiring consultants on short term contracts it would be so much easier to get salaries up for tech roles. What I think is the bigger blocker is that engineers don't want to work for non technical people. I remember doing it and I absolutely hated it for that year or so and it drove me to quit my job. The reports I get from people doing engineering, data or product roles in the public sector are always the same - no drive to achieve anything, management is universally awful and they don't understand the intricacies of what needs doing.

    I just think there needs to be a huge culture change to improve productivity and that means moving on many, many hundreds of thousands in senior and middle management that add no value and replacing them with 20% of the people but have them earn more and have a highly technical skillset, can work independently and are capable of managing other technical people as well as contribute to the code base.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
    Because people have been forced off the roads gradually. Drivers have the same effect as paedophile panics.

    BTW I was nearly run over this afternoon. On the pavement. A driver just wanted to do a U turn without enough room.
    File under: Total bullshit.

    Pedestrian casualties are collapsing even as pedestrian traffic is rising, but you don't let actual facts get in the way of a good rant, do you?

    image
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    It's not even in senior roles, it's all roles that aren't very junior.

    I've got lots of friends coming up now that wouldn't work for the public sector unless their salaries were bumped 30%.
    Some of us have been pointing this out for a while.

    Yes, the pensions cover a degree of pay gap, but that only goes so far.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    Yes, agreed. I want to go client-side, and have done for years, but they can't pay. Not close. And they often don't even trouble to ask.

    Construction (infrastructure) is very poorly understood by clients and recruiters who think if you go client-side you have to be a big delivery person from a contractor who's used to managing contractors pouring concrete.

    Lots of us could do that anyway but they dont recognise that's not the core skill a client leader needs but the label consultant has a branding problem and the intellectual and technical value they offer is harder to understand.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    There's another point: at the top end of the public sector you have to work very hard and long hours, and drop everything for a minister at any hour night or day, whilst carrying a lot of dross in your department beneath you who are basically passengers. I bet it's thankless, stressful and utterly relentless.

    I suppose the reward one day is a gong, as well as the final salary pension, but you can't blame many for quitting and going to work as a Big 4 partner instead, where they might make salaries and bonuses that creep into 7 figures.
  • MaxPB said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    If they stopped hiring consultants on short term contracts it would be so much easier to get salaries up for tech roles. What I think is the bigger blocker is that engineers don't want to work for non technical people. I remember doing it and I absolutely hated it for that year or so and it drove me to quit my job. The reports I get from people doing engineering, data or product roles in the public sector are always the same - no drive to achieve anything, management is universally awful and they don't understand the intricacies of what needs doing.

    I just think there needs to be a huge culture change to improve productivity and that means moving on many, many hundreds of thousands in senior and middle management that add no value and replacing them with 20% of the people but have them earn more and have a highly technical skillset, can work independently and are capable of managing other technical people as well as contribute to the code base.
    I now manage people in my role and I write less code than I used to, in fact it decreases month by month and ultimately will decrease to zero. Personally I am happy with that but others prefer to go to the IC route.

    Do I think I'd be better at running a large team because of my technical background, not necessarily, I've met many good people that didn't - but it's probably not wrong to say that they are the outlier.

    Priorities being constantly shifted is what annoys people - and this is something which is universally loathed but never seems to change. I am sure this is also a problem in the public sector.

    In any case, the pay for the public sector is so poor and what I'd be working on wouldn't have anything like the potential pay off of where I am now. I am sure many feel the same.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,355
    edited December 5
    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
    Not necessarily.

    If you can take a higher salary now that means you can afford to own your own home and retire mortgage-free then you may be better off than having a lifetime of struggling to pay rent ending in a retirement with a higher pension that all gets swallowed up by paying your rent in retirement.

    Our broken housing system distorts everything.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    Barnesian said:

    ...

    It's Question Time in a couple of hours and, well, what do you know, it's Nigel Farage again.

    Has he reached his thousandth appearance yet?

    BBC will bitterly regret giving all this air time over the years when he becomes PM and ends the licence fee and makes them PBS-lite.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Farage could be a permanent panellist like Alan Davies on QI.
    He's appearing with Alistair Campbell tonight. Could be sparky.
    Mishal Hussein is leaving the R4 Today programme. Perhaps he could take over her gig. .
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    edited December 5
    Andy_JS said:

    Just copy Norway on everything. They know how to run a society successfully.

    They're a State of Happiness.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
    Because people have been forced off the roads gradually. Drivers have the same effect as paedophile panics.

    BTW I was nearly run over this afternoon. On the pavement. A driver just wanted to do a U turn without enough room.
    File under: Total bullshit.

    Pedestrian casualties are collapsing even as pedestrian traffic is rising, but you don't let actual facts get in the way of a good rant, do you?

    image
    The positive effect of LTNs, 20mph limits and pedestrianisation :)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    It's not even in senior roles, it's all roles that aren't very junior.

    I've got lots of friends coming up now that wouldn't work for the public sector unless their salaries were bumped 30%.
    Some of us have been pointing this out for a while.

    Yes, the pensions cover a degree of pay gap, but that only goes so far.
    Proportion of critics of high public sector pay who are actually willing to work in public sector and accept the overly generous pay: <5%
    Proportion of critics of high public sector pay who want an exemption and increase for their particular skillset: >95%
  • I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    There's another point: at the top end of the public sector you have to work very hard and long hours, and drop everything for a minister at any hour night or day, whilst carrying a lot of dross in your department beneath you who are basically passengers. I bet it's thankless, stressful and utterly relentless.

    I suppose the reward one day is a gong, as well as the final salary pension, but you can't blame many for quitting and going to work as a Big 4 partner instead, where they might make salaries and bonuses that creep into 7 figures.
    I have to work very long and hard hours now - and I'm in the middle. But the point is that I have ownership in the company I am working for. And I have the ability to make real change. I just don't think I'd get the same opportunities at a public sector organisation or for a large firm.

    The fact my salary doubled when I moved here is another nice bonus and my pension is decent, it's just not something that I think appeals to many people. So I'd cut the pension significantly in the public sector and pay people a lot more money.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    MaxPB said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    If they stopped hiring consultants on short term contracts it would be so much easier to get salaries up for tech roles. What I think is the bigger blocker is that engineers don't want to work for non technical people. I remember doing it and I absolutely hated it for that year or so and it drove me to quit my job. The reports I get from people doing engineering, data or product roles in the public sector are always the same - no drive to achieve anything, management is universally awful and they don't understand the intricacies of what needs doing.

    I just think there needs to be a huge culture change to improve productivity and that means moving on many, many hundreds of thousands in senior and middle management that add no value and replacing them with 20% of the people but have them earn more and have a highly technical skillset, can work independently and are capable of managing other technical people as well as contribute to the code base.
    I now manage people in my role and I write less code than I used to, in fact it decreases month by month and ultimately will decrease to zero. Personally I am happy with that but others prefer to go to the IC route.

    Do I think I'd be better at running a large team because of my technical background, not necessarily, I've met many good people that didn't - but it's probably not wrong to say that they are the outlier.

    Priorities being constantly shifted is what annoys people - and this is something which is universally loathed but never seems to change. I am sure this is also a problem in the public sector.

    In any case, the pay for the public sector is so poor and what I'd be working on wouldn't have anything like the potential pay off of where I am now. I am sure many feel the same.
    You are choosing better pay now private sector or better pension later public sector
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?
  • Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Darren Millar elected new leader of the conservatives in the Senedd

    I know Darren and he is an excellent choice

    He's the only Conservative MS who voted against default 20mph limits in 2020.

    Something of a hypocrite, as he himself led a successful campaign for a 20mph limit inside his own constituency.
    Err he campaigned for it around a school which absolutely nobody objects to
    Typical Yimbys
    Schools and hospitals should have 20mph zones and he campaigned for this in his constituency which isn't even a political issue

    But not where people actually live, work and shop?
    Absolutely, no. Why should it?

    Our roads are safe. Casualties are at the lowest they've been in decades and cars and pedestrians are getting safer annually at existing speeds.
    Because people have been forced off the roads gradually. Drivers have the same effect as paedophile panics.

    BTW I was nearly run over this afternoon. On the pavement. A driver just wanted to do a U turn without enough room.
    File under: Total bullshit.

    Pedestrian casualties are collapsing even as pedestrian traffic is rising, but you don't let actual facts get in the way of a good rant, do you?

    image
    The positive effect of LTNs, 20mph limits and pedestrianisation :)
    Or all that shite is unnecessary and its the positive effects of decades of improvements in technology and safety.
  • Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
    Not necessarily.

    If you can take a higher salary now that means you can afford to own your own home and retire mortgage-free then you may be better off than having a lifetime of struggling to pay rent ending in a retirement with a higher pension that all gets swallowed up by paying your rent in retirement.

    Our broken housing system distorts everything.
    I put away a decent amount into savings which I invest into an index-linked fund, I am confident I will have more than enough to retire on. And assuming my current gig pays off, I'll be alright for some time.

    I don't think any notional pension advantage in the public sector can change my mind.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279
    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
    Most tech companies have around 5% contributions plus 5% from yourself. For a senior dev that's probably between £8-10k per year minimum, over a 25+ year career as a senior or above plus's accruals it's going to be a pretty substantial pension pot.
This discussion has been closed.