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Like Thatcher in her first term Starmer finds himself third in the polls – politicalbetting.com

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  • Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    If they stopped hiring consultants on short term contracts it would be so much easier to get salaries up for tech roles. What I think is the bigger blocker is that engineers don't want to work for non technical people. I remember doing it and I absolutely hated it for that year or so and it drove me to quit my job. The reports I get from people doing engineering, data or product roles in the public sector are always the same - no drive to achieve anything, management is universally awful and they don't understand the intricacies of what needs doing.

    I just think there needs to be a huge culture change to improve productivity and that means moving on many, many hundreds of thousands in senior and middle management that add no value and replacing them with 20% of the people but have them earn more and have a highly technical skillset, can work independently and are capable of managing other technical people as well as contribute to the code base.
    I now manage people in my role and I write less code than I used to, in fact it decreases month by month and ultimately will decrease to zero. Personally I am happy with that but others prefer to go to the IC route.

    Do I think I'd be better at running a large team because of my technical background, not necessarily, I've met many good people that didn't - but it's probably not wrong to say that they are the outlier.

    Priorities being constantly shifted is what annoys people - and this is something which is universally loathed but never seems to change. I am sure this is also a problem in the public sector.

    In any case, the pay for the public sector is so poor and what I'd be working on wouldn't have anything like the potential pay off of where I am now. I am sure many feel the same.
    You are choosing better pay now private sector or better pension later public sector
    Well not really, because assuming I can invest my money wisely, I can retire comfortably and have a happy life in the meantime. Working in the public sector for a role I hate - which is what friends do - seems like it wouldn't be worth any pension at the end.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442
    MaxPB said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    If they stopped hiring consultants on short term contracts it would be so much easier to get salaries up for tech roles. What I think is the bigger blocker is that engineers don't want to work for non technical people. I remember doing it and I absolutely hated it for that year or so and it drove me to quit my job. The reports I get from people doing engineering, data or product roles in the public sector are always the same - no drive to achieve anything, management is universally awful and they don't understand the intricacies of what needs doing.

    I just think there needs to be a huge culture change to improve productivity and that means moving on many, many hundreds of thousands in senior and middle management that add no value and replacing them with 20% of the people but have them earn more and have a highly technical skillset, can work independently and are capable of managing other technical people as well as contribute to the code base.
    Trouble is, that means getting rid of processes. And all of those processes were put in for good reasons. Some to close stable doors after scandal horses bolted. Others because of the creation of pseudo markets.

    (In my corner of the garden, schools, colleges and universities spend a fortune on marketing these days. At an institutional level, it makes sense- you don't need to poach that many extra students for marketing to pay for itself. At a system level, it's an insane waste of money.

    Or Ofsted- I doubt anyone would dare abolish it, but its direct and indirect costs, institutions doing Ofsted buffing, is horrible to contemplate.)

    Even loathed things like DEI didn't come out of nothing, and a fair bit is a valid response to real problems. Question is what do you cut?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    Atletico Madrid still trailing 1-0 to Cacereno, 19 minutes to go.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
    Not necessarily.

    If you can take a higher salary now that means you can afford to own your own home and retire mortgage-free then you may be better off than having a lifetime of struggling to pay rent ending in a retirement with a higher pension that all gets swallowed up by paying your rent in retirement.

    Our broken housing system distorts everything.
    you are assuming that the higher pay allows you a mortgage which is often not the case. If not you get the worst of both worlds
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
    Not necessarily.

    If you can take a higher salary now that means you can afford to own your own home and retire mortgage-free then you may be better off than having a lifetime of struggling to pay rent ending in a retirement with a higher pension that all gets swallowed up by paying your rent in retirement.

    Our broken housing system distorts everything.
    I put away a decent amount into savings which I invest into an index-linked fund, I am confident I will have more than enough to retire on. And assuming my current gig pays off, I'll be alright for some time.

    I don't think any notional pension advantage in the public sector can change my mind.
    Lucky you....oh yes you have a rent free house....I probably dont earn much dissimilar to you just 60% of my pay goes in rent....cant afford to save a deposit...so I get a crap pension and still be renting
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    MaxPB said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    If they stopped hiring consultants on short term contracts it would be so much easier to get salaries up for tech roles. What I think is the bigger blocker is that engineers don't want to work for non technical people. I remember doing it and I absolutely hated it for that year or so and it drove me to quit my job. The reports I get from people doing engineering, data or product roles in the public sector are always the same - no drive to achieve anything, management is universally awful and they don't understand the intricacies of what needs doing.

    I just think there needs to be a huge culture change to improve productivity and that means moving on many, many hundreds of thousands in senior and middle management that add no value and replacing them with 20% of the people but have them earn more and have a highly technical skillset, can work independently and are capable of managing other technical people as well as contribute to the code base.
    Trouble is, that means getting rid of processes. And all of those processes were put in for good reasons. Some to close stable doors after scandal horses bolted. Others because of the creation of pseudo markets.

    (In my corner of the garden, schools, colleges and universities spend a fortune on marketing these days. At an institutional level, it makes sense- you don't need to poach that many extra students for marketing to pay for itself. At a system level, it's an insane waste of money.

    Or Ofsted- I doubt anyone would dare abolish it, but its direct and indirect costs, institutions doing Ofsted buffing, is horrible to contemplate.)

    Even loathed things like DEI didn't come out of nothing, and a fair bit is a valid response to real problems. Question is what do you cut?
    All of it?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807

    The trouble with Starmer absolutely ISN'T lack of va va voom. Nobody could sell this turd sandwich of a Government.

    Politics watchers, especially those on the left it seems to me, are constantly on the lookout for someone more telegenic, better back story, better communicator, more gutsy and working class, but these days, people don't want optics, they want to prosper. You can't heat your house with optics.

    Sir Bellend is in the business of making people poorer. His policies set out to make people poorer. They will raise the price of energy, raise the price of having a car, raise the price of housing, raise the costs of doing business. That's quite apart from his bans on things and ugly disregard for free speech. Any party that wishes to survive will turn away from these policies quick sticks, but Labour has doubled-down. They will rightly be booted out hopefully never to return.

    To have an offer to the voters, Labour will need to move away from their broken business model, of piling too much tax and debt on the private sector to give to an ever-voracious public sector.
    Yes. And sadly they have the least credibility of all the main parties to sell themselves as competent to do it.

  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Read that one back to yourself slowly.
    No what I said makes perfect sense.

    How good the pension is, is not relevant to where I choose to work. That is the case for most people I work with, in the 20 to 40 bracket. It's a nice to have but I wouldn't go to the public sector because it has a better pension.

    Would I go somewhere for stock options, yes - and that's what I did for where I currently am.
    It will be relevant to you when you retire with a 5k non index linked pension vs a public sector 20k a year index linked pension
    Not necessarily.

    If you can take a higher salary now that means you can afford to own your own home and retire mortgage-free then you may be better off than having a lifetime of struggling to pay rent ending in a retirement with a higher pension that all gets swallowed up by paying your rent in retirement.

    Our broken housing system distorts everything.
    I put away a decent amount into savings which I invest into an index-linked fund, I am confident I will have more than enough to retire on. And assuming my current gig pays off, I'll be alright for some time.

    I don't think any notional pension advantage in the public sector can change my mind.
    Lucky you....oh yes you have a rent free house....I probably dont earn much dissimilar to you just 60% of my pay goes in rent....cant afford to save a deposit...so I get a crap pension and still be renting
    The issue isn't public or private sector, its our broken planning system and broken housing market.

    Fix that, so many problems in this country go away.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Why don’t you think a good pension is relevant? Are you going to be eternally young?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    She's entitled to her opinion? 🤷‍♂️
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Welcome to government. It’s not fair, but it’s what happens. When you’re in the top seat you’re the one who gets the blame.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    TOPPING said:

    maxh said:

    TOPPING said:

    maxh said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.

    Perhaps because we aren't experiencing a pandemic where cases are rising exponentially?

    Shrugs.
    The NHS is under more pressure than ever before. So worse now than the lockdown which was designed to "Save the NHS".
    Yes but it was never the current case load that was the problem, it was the predicted future case load that was modelled as exponential growth.
    "As modelled"

    Idiot.
    Just before the first lockdown I was in class with my Y12s. We used the COVID death rate to learn about logarithmic modelling. Our model matched current data excellently, but one of my more switched on students noticed something was awry when he plugged 'end of 2020' into the model and it predicted 8 1/2 billion deaths.

    So you do have half a point, even if you also have a deficit of courtesy and decency.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    Fine with me. They are both completely committed to the post 1945 social democratic state (NATO, regulated capitalism, cradle to grave state) and their differences of substance are trivial, mostly about how to line up the ducks and how much the state pays private enterprise to do stuff. The questions are more those of competence, and going deeper, how the post war/post cold war social democratic Europe wide project is going to fare.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    Surely a Con/Ref minority government?
  • biggles said:

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    Why don’t you think a good pension is relevant? Are you going to be eternally young?
    Because saying my salary is 30% less but I'll get a pay off in 30+ years for loads of pain is not appealing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    That would surely be a Con/Ref coalition - with the support of NI prods - no way the Tories go into coalition with the hated Starmer

    It would however be wildly unstable ans fall within weeks and the voters would be asked again. Probably giving reform more seats and a more stable right wing coalition
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    MaxPB said:

    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    Surely a Con/Ref minority government?
    Yes
  • Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
  • Oh look, your left wing account has logged off and now you're back again.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916
    MaxPB said:

    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    Surely a Con/Ref minority government?
    Yes CON + REF + DUP + UUP + SF abstentions probably gives a very, very small majority.

    That said, can’t see Farage going into coalition. More likely to stay on the outside and support where it suits him, but ready to bring the government down when he fancies. The Marine Le Pen role.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    edited December 5
    7.3 magnitude quake 100m north of Sacramento.
    https://x.com/WWLTV/status/1864756630396510283
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
  • MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    If only Harold Godwinson had lost the Battle of Stamford Bridge!
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    That would surely be a Con/Ref coalition - with the support of NI prods - no way the Tories go into coalition with the hated Starmer

    It would however be wildly unstable ans fall within weeks and the voters would be asked again. Probably giving reform more seats and a more stable right wing coalition
    Yes, much more likely Con/Ref but if I were Nige as junior partner I wouldn't be so sure of a happy ending. Didn't end well for Nick...

    At the end of the day the Conservatives, even now, have a deep-rooted presence in the country which Reform simply cannot match. The Tories will endure. Reform may not even survive Farage's retirement.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 4,089
    edited December 5

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    I really, really don't think they are "ideological sixth-formers" Casino. You make some good analysis of which I enjoy reading but I don't agree with silly statements like that, I just don't.

    All of those characterisations could equally apply to the party that just left office.

    Is that all to say that I think SKS is doing well, no I don't. I just don't think he's doing as terribly as others, that's all.

    I'd be quite willing to vote Tory in 2029 - I know they don't want my vote (although I think you probably do because I think you are probably more open minded about getting younger voters than some Tories I speak to) but I'd like to see what they have to offer first.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Andy_JS said:

    In football, fourth tier team Cacereno are leading Atletico Madrid 1-0 at half-time in the Copa del Rey. There might be some betting opportunities wrt this match.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/football/spanish-copa-del-rey/cacereno-v-atletico-madrid-betting-33836029

    Anyone take the tip? Atletico Madrid have scored twice at the end of the game, and Cacereno have picked up a red card.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    And Starmer's comments today about public sector productivity is why the budget didn't make sense. All of the new spending commitments could have been funded out of existing money without needing to raise taxes if they had the cojones to make the necessary cuts in employment among the unproductive classes.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
    But his box that he had used to box himself in with is steel reinforced unfortunately, because he has calculated that politically the payoff needed relates to the NHS and cost of living (he's probably not wrong) whereas the payoff the country actually needs definitely relates to productivity and probably also relates to defence, but neither of those will become 'feelgood' in one political cycle.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    And Starmer's comments today about public sector productivity is why the budget didn't make sense. All of the new spending commitments could have been funded out of existing money without needing to raise taxes if they had the cojones to make the necessary cuts in employment among the unproductive classes.
    I guess my question would be, why did the Tories not do any of this stuff - and is Badenoch proposing to?

    If she was offering to increase public sector salaries significantly and cut the pension I'd be all ears.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    edited December 5
    TOPPING said:

    I don't get it there is a news item on the telly telling me that Addenbrookes hospital has "never been busier".

    How come we haven't been locked down.

    The car park was certainly busy mid-afternoon the week before last.

    Then again, if they insist on closing other local hospitals and putting everything onto one site, then it might get a tad busier...

    Edit: and although it's still under construction, the buildings of the new Cambridge South railway station look rather nice.
  • Not to alarm you all but I am bloody knackered, so I have booked a short holiday this long weekend.

    Nothing major happens when PB editors go on holiday...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    The Tories piled billions into the NHS, Starmer is now PM, if you lead a shite government you then take all the hatred too
  • maxh said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
    But his box that he had used to box himself in with is steel reinforced unfortunately, because he has calculated that politically the payoff needed relates to the NHS and cost of living (he's probably not wrong) whereas the payoff the country actually needs definitely relates to productivity and probably also relates to defence, but neither of those will become 'feelgood' in one political cycle.
    I think he can basically make progress on either: immigration or the cost of living. The NHS is something people already expect to get better under Labour, so that's kind of factored in (whether rightly or wrongly).

    SKS obviously thinks he can make progress on those, I'm pretty sceptical and I lean one term government at this stage. But it's early days, I do not write him off as others have before. I definitely do not.

    I think you are absolutely right on productivity and this is something I would like to hear the Tories have a go at.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    GIN1138 said:

    I see weirdo Tim Montgomerie has left the Tories for Reform.

    Does that mean Con Home has become Ref Home? :D

    It has been for months. Comment section in there full of Reform rampers
    It isn't, the ConHome Tory leader survey had Badenoch's margin almost spot on

    Montie no longer works for ConHome

    https://conservativehome.com/2024/10/25/badenoch-maintains-her-lead-in-our-final-leadership-survey/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    "Labour must beware Reform, the British wing of Trumpism
    While liberalism is in decline, Nigel Farage’s party is only growing in strength.
    By Andrew Marr"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2024/12/labour-must-beware-reform-british-wing-of-trumpism
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    HYUFD said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    The Tories piled billions into the NHS, Starmer is now PM, if you lead a shite government you then take all the hatred too
    Did you take that view 6 months in to the last government? Or was the 'previous lot' excuse in play?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
    No, he should have thought about public sector productivity before putting up taxes. There's almost 1m more people working for the state than in 2017 and state output is worse than ever. Make those people productive or get rid and save the money, push the savings into areas where it's most necessary. Putting up taxes by £30bn and increasing spending is just going to result in productivity going to down, not up. Wages will rise, they'll hire more people and further decrease output.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    The Tories piled billions into the NHS, Starmer is now PM, if you lead a shite government you then take all the hatred too
    Did you take that view 6 months in to the last government? Or was the 'previous lot' excuse in play?
    They used the previous lot excuse until 2019!
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
    No, he should have thought about public sector productivity before putting up taxes. There's almost 1m more people working for the state than in 2017 and state output is worse than ever. Make those people productive or get rid and save the money, push the savings into areas where it's most necessary. Putting up taxes by £30bn and increasing spending is just going to result in productivity going to down, not up. Wages will rise, they'll hire more people and further decrease output.
    But why shouldn't people like me pay more taxes Max?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I'm liking Johnson looking at those odds.
    I'd have a tenner on Darren Jones please
    I've liked Darren Jones from the start. A smart, well presented and seemingly sound chap. But VERY inexperienced. Perhaps that's an advantage?
    I agree - he comes across as sensible and principled on the media, and is one of the few politicians who actually appears to think about what he has been asked. He will have done a lot of thinking behind the budget and financial strategy.

    But I wouldn’t back him as a future leader - some people are destined to be in the top team but not the top job, and he is clearly one such.
    He'd be a good chancellor in a Streeting government.

    I still think in 2028 it will be a Streeting coronation and they'll go into 2029 with a different leader.
    You may be right, for all I know. But this was the result in Wes's seat in July.

    General election 2024: Ilford North
    Party Candidate Votes %
    Labour Wes Streeting 15,647 33.4
    Independent Leanne Mohamad 15,119 32.2
    Conservative Kaz Rizvi 9,619 20.5
    Reform UK Alex Wilson 3,621 7.7
    Green Rachel Collinson 1,794 3.8
    Lib Democrats Fraser Coppin 1,088 2.3
    Majority 528
    Wicked! I is here in da North Ilford Ghetto, hangin' wid me bitches :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    That would surely be a Con/Ref coalition - with the support of NI prods - no way the Tories go into coalition with the hated Starmer

    It would however be wildly unstable ans fall within weeks and the voters would be asked again. Probably giving reform more seats and a more stable right wing coalition
    Yes, much more likely Con/Ref but if I were Nige as junior partner I wouldn't be so sure of a happy ending. Didn't end well for Nick...

    At the end of the day the Conservatives, even now, have a deep-rooted presence in the country which Reform simply cannot match. The Tories will endure. Reform may not even survive Farage's retirement.
    They may have a shot at cementing a presence but the next few years are key, and boosters are getting a bit arrogant about the chances.
  • We could save a lot of money by getting rid of planning regulations or significantly stripping them back.

    What an utter waste of money it is to plan to build a mast and to have some planning official it's rejected for "looking ugly".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    Just because you are a good engineer doesn't mean you make a good manager, not least as public sector managers to have manage a set budget from taxpayers
  • Not to alarm you all but I am bloody knackered, so I have booked a short holiday this long weekend.

    Nothing major happens when PB editors go on holiday...

    I do hope this has nothing to do with you....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3lyxgez5xo
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    And Starmer's comments today about public sector productivity is why the budget didn't make sense. All of the new spending commitments could have been funded out of existing money without needing to raise taxes if they had the cojones to make the necessary cuts in employment among the unproductive classes.
    I guess my question would be, why did the Tories not do any of this stuff - and is Badenoch proposing to?

    If she was offering to increase public sector salaries significantly and cut the pension I'd be all ears.
    I'm not sure what the Tory view is currently. The only actually Tory budgets we had since 2015 were from Hunt when Rishi was PM. All of the others talked right but implemented left, huge increases in spending, massive increases state employment and no reforms to ensure the money was spent properly so we saw a huge drop in public sector productivity.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    The Tories piled billions into the NHS, Starmer is now PM, if you lead a shite government you then take all the hatred too
    Did you take that view 6 months in to the last government? Or was the 'previous lot' excuse in play?
    They used the previous lot excuse until 2019!
    Naturally. Gordon Brown briefly attempted it 13 years in, but 10 years is probably the max.
  • Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    And Starmer's comments today about public sector productivity is why the budget didn't make sense. All of the new spending commitments could have been funded out of existing money without needing to raise taxes if they had the cojones to make the necessary cuts in employment among the unproductive classes.
    I guess my question would be, why did the Tories not do any of this stuff - and is Badenoch proposing to?

    If she was offering to increase public sector salaries significantly and cut the pension I'd be all ears.
    I'm not sure what the Tory view is currently. The only actually Tory budgets we had since 2015 were from Hunt when Rishi was PM. All of the others talked right but implemented left, huge increases in spending, massive increases state employment and no reforms to ensure the money was spent properly so we saw a huge drop in public sector productivity.
    Just out of interest, did you oppose all of the Johnson budgets at the time?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,515
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
    No, he should have thought about public sector productivity before putting up taxes. There's almost 1m more people working for the state than in 2017 and state output is worse than ever. Make those people productive or get rid and save the money, push the savings into areas where it's most necessary. Putting up taxes by £30bn and increasing spending is just going to result in productivity going to down, not up. Wages will rise, they'll hire more people and further decrease output.
    “State output is worse than ever”. On what metric? You can’t just quote random statistics that could be made up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    Just because you are a good engineer doesn't mean you make a good manager, not least as public sector managers to have manage a set budget from taxpayers
    That's true but not all engineers want or need to be managers. EMs that can't code are useless. You only need a handful of engineers that are technically minded to be able to manage teams/departments it just means you need to pay them accordingly to get them in. The EM at my previous company made £180k per year but he was brilliant and worth the money. The chances of someone earning that for the same role in the state is less than zero.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Sounds like a desperate ploy by Keir and Rachel to get the spotlight off themselves and WFA?

    Doubt it will work as they will still be blamed for every pensioner who dies of the cold between now and April...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    And Starmer's comments today about public sector productivity is why the budget didn't make sense. All of the new spending commitments could have been funded out of existing money without needing to raise taxes if they had the cojones to make the necessary cuts in employment among the unproductive classes.
    I guess my question would be, why did the Tories not do any of this stuff - and is Badenoch proposing to?

    If she was offering to increase public sector salaries significantly and cut the pension I'd be all ears.
    I'm not sure what the Tory view is currently. The only actually Tory budgets we had since 2015 were from Hunt when Rishi was PM. All of the others talked right but implemented left, huge increases in spending, massive increases state employment and no reforms to ensure the money was spent properly so we saw a huge drop in public sector productivity.
    Just out of interest, did you oppose all of the Johnson budgets at the time?
    Yes, I was hugely opposed to most of them, especially the idiotic one that introduced the social care levy on NI.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm sure Find Out Now has already been Baxtered - But just in case...

    Talk about a well hung Parliament:

    Con 219 Seats
    Lab 207 Seats
    Lib 67 Seats
    Ref 95 Seats
    Green 6 Seats
    SNP 22 Seats

    Pick that bones out of that!

    The only possible viable combination looks to be a Conservative/Labour National Government?

    The first Con/Lab coalition since the war….
    That would surely be a Con/Ref coalition - with the support of NI prods - no way the Tories go into coalition with the hated Starmer

    It would however be wildly unstable ans fall within weeks and the voters would be asked again. Probably giving reform more seats and a more stable right wing coalition
    Yes, much more likely Con/Ref but if I were Nige as junior partner I wouldn't be so sure of a happy ending. Didn't end well for Nick...

    At the end of the day the Conservatives, even now, have a deep-rooted presence in the country which Reform simply cannot match. The Tories will endure. Reform may not even survive Farage's retirement.
    They may have a shot at cementing a presence but the next few years are key, and boosters are getting a bit arrogant about the chances.
    Reform voters, I suspect, will prove to be volatile and may prove very difficult to retain if they enter Govt. People project on to them as they do the LibDems who had a pretty fateful experience in 2015. The 24% the Tories got in July are the very definition of loyal and dependable.
  • Not to alarm you all but I am bloody knackered, so I have booked a short holiday this long weekend.

    Nothing major happens when PB editors go on holiday...

    I do hope this has nothing to do with you....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3lyxgez5xo
    Well I have been known to make the Earth move for some...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767
    edited December 5
    Tsunami warning for San Francisco and the Bay Area
  • HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Mel Stride is right, though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    Just because you are a good engineer doesn't mean you make a good manager, not least as public sector managers to have manage a set budget from taxpayers
    That's true but not all engineers want or need to be managers. EMs that can't code are useless. You only need a handful of engineers that are technically minded to be able to manage teams/departments it just means you need to pay them accordingly to get them in. The EM at my previous company made £180k per year but he was brilliant and worth the money. The chances of someone earning that for the same role in the state is less than zero.
    Well of course they are as the taxpayer would be paying for it.

    If you are really bright and talented in your field you will almost always prefer to work in the private sector as the pay is more and often comes with significant share options too. If you are only average or below average in skill then the public sector is often a better bet if you can get a job there as minimum and average pay tends to be higher with a better pension and often longer leave and more flexible working.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    geoffw said:

    Tsunami warning for San Francisco and the Bay Area

    Fck me, TSE not even on holiday yet. The crises are just queueing up..
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    That £30bn will raise prices and wages in the public sector but do virtually nothing to raise output. Because this bunch of muppets are ideological sixth-formers who really do deify the state and believe that if you give it all the inputs you can muster that's all that's needed.

    Then, people really will be angry.
    And Starmer's comments today about public sector productivity is why the budget didn't make sense. All of the new spending commitments could have been funded out of existing money without needing to raise taxes if they had the cojones to make the necessary cuts in employment among the unproductive classes.
    I guess my question would be, why did the Tories not do any of this stuff - and is Badenoch proposing to?

    If she was offering to increase public sector salaries significantly and cut the pension I'd be all ears.
    I'm not sure what the Tory view is currently. The only actually Tory budgets we had since 2015 were from Hunt when Rishi was PM. All of the others talked right but implemented left, huge increases in spending, massive increases state employment and no reforms to ensure the money was spent properly so we saw a huge drop in public sector productivity.
    I think there are two issues:

    Firstly, those kind of details never particularly interested Boris.

    Secondly, there was inevitably going to be some increase in spend as we repatriated competences.

    What the UK really needs to do is to copy the Australian system of forced saving, which would (over a long enough period) make a real difference to the amount the government needs to spend on pensions.

    The problem is that it would mean that people (voters) had less disposible income now, while the money we're spending on today's pensioners remains the same.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286

    maxh said:

    MaxPB said:

    Woman on ITN waiting 3 years for a leg op... Asked who she blamed

    Not Boris, Not Truss, Not Sunak or their predecessors who destroyed the NHS...

    No.. It's all Starmer fault.

    Independent investigative Journalism is dead in the UK

    RIP

    Rules of the game. Part of Starmer's problem is that he's now the face of the government, even if the actions of the government are still largely about the decisions of the last lot.

    No, it's not fair, but being PM isn't about experiencing fair. Don't take a job in the kitchen if you don't like unfair heat.

    (None of which is going to stop me pointing and laughing at Conservative 'thinkers' saying how bad things are in the UK right now.)

    Labour's best bet in 2028/9 will to be run on a version of "yes it hurt, yes it worked". For which, all of this has to work. Let's see.
    It's just Cameron 2.0. This has been obvious that his was his strategy since 2020.
    But the difference is that Cameron didn't put up taxes by £30bn that will increase prices and cause wage freezes for anyone not on the minimum wage.
    No he didn't but he was prepared to make unpopular decisions with the promise of being able to benefit from them later.

    It's obvious to me that SKS thinks if he makes unpopular decisions that he thinks will work now, he can get a pay off later. I don't know what other strategy he really had to pursue, because he boxed himself in.

    Personally I'd have put taxes on people like me up instead.
    But his box that he had used to box himself in with is steel reinforced unfortunately, because he has calculated that politically the payoff needed relates to the NHS and cost of living (he's probably not wrong) whereas the payoff the country actually needs definitely relates to productivity and probably also relates to defence, but neither of those will become 'feelgood' in one political cycle.
    I think he can basically make progress on either: immigration or the cost of living. The NHS is something people already expect to get better under Labour, so that's kind of factored in (whether rightly or wrongly).

    SKS obviously thinks he can make progress on those, I'm pretty sceptical and I lean one term government at this stage. But it's early days, I do not write him off as others have before. I definitely do not.

    I think you are absolutely right on productivity and this is something I would like to hear the Tories have a go at.
    My basic problem with the Tories on productivity (in the public sector at least where I have experience) is that it seems to correlate closely with enshitification. Structurally the public sector is hugely unproductive, but efforts to make it more so (e.g. performance related pay in teaching - I know this isn't just a Tory thing) fail at their stated aim and generally skew incentives in a bad way. Ofsted is another example.

    Innovate structurally, don't try to squeeze workers further, imo.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    We could save a lot of money by getting rid of planning regulations or significantly stripping them back.

    What an utter waste of money it is to plan to build a mast and to have some planning official it's rejected for "looking ugly".

    You don't need to get rid.
    Just massively streamline them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    Just because you are a good engineer doesn't mean you make a good manager, not least as public sector managers to have manage a set budget from taxpayers
    That's true but not all engineers want or need to be managers. EMs that can't code are useless. You only need a handful of engineers that are technically minded to be able to manage teams/departments it just means you need to pay them accordingly to get them in. The EM at my previous company made £180k per year but he was brilliant and worth the money. The chances of someone earning that for the same role in the state is less than zero.
    Well of course they are as the taxpayer would be paying for it.

    If you are really bright and talented in your field you will almost always prefer to work in the private sector as the pay is more and often comes with significant share options too. If you are only average or below average in skill then the public sector is often a better bet if you can get a job there as minimum and average pay tends to be higher with a better pension and often longer leave and more flexible working.
    Yes but the problem, HYUFD, is that the skills are still necessary in the public sector and they end up getting in a series of consultants on £2-3k day rates instead of just getting a permanent hire with a skillset that can handle multiple projects at once. We still end up paying for it but instead of adding those skills permanently the taxpayer just gets ripped off by tech consultancy firms. I just don't think you properly understand how it works in the tech sector.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767

    geoffw said:

    Tsunami warning for San Francisco and the Bay Area

    Fck me, TSE not even on holiday yet. The crises are just queueing up..
    It's just been cancelled:
    "Tsunami warning cancelled after earthquake hits California" (Telegraph)
    no need for TSE to postpone his hols
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited December 5
    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    He's right, and you put party over country.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835
    Leon said:

    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


    Promise us you're not alternating sips.
  • Nigelb said:

    We could save a lot of money by getting rid of planning regulations or significantly stripping them back.

    What an utter waste of money it is to plan to build a mast and to have some planning official it's rejected for "looking ugly".

    You don't need to get rid.
    Just massively streamline them.
    I used to think that until I see some of the reasons these sites get rejected.

    And the bat thing for HS2 was the icing on the cake. What do these people do?

    At any rate, if you want to build a mast, beyond it being dangerous, what reason is there to actually reject it? Looking ugly is not a legitimate reason.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945

    We could save a lot of money by getting rid of planning regulations or significantly stripping them back.

    What an utter waste of money it is to plan to build a mast and to have some planning official it's rejected for "looking ugly".

    Link

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Really? What does it matter if you take a poll hit 4-5 years out from an election?
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    Leon said:

    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


    You're in Mompos? I bloody love that place. What proportion of your time is spent in a rocking chair? As I recall that was the main industry.

    Oh and, a couple of days late...if you want a backwater, you could do worse than Loja in Ecuador. It's like a mountainous version of Mompos. Surrounded by cloud forest and (when I lived there 10-12 years ago) blessedly free of the weird daylight mugging/sexual assault spike that the rest of Ecuador was dealing with at the time.

    It even had pedalos.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    edited December 5
    geoffw said:

    Tsunami warning for San Francisco and the Bay Area

    Ironically, tsunami warning near Eureka - water displacement....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    edited December 5

    geoffw said:

    Tsunami warning for San Francisco and the Bay Area

    Fck me, TSE not even on holiday yet. The crises are just queueing up..
    100 miles north of Sacramento, so probably not so bad in SF.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited December 5
    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


    You're in Mompos? I bloody love that place. What proportion of your time is spent in a rocking chair? As I recall that was the main industry.

    Oh and, a couple of days late...if you want a backwater, you could do worse than Loja in Ecuador. It's like a mountainous version of Mompos. Surrounded by cloud forest and (when I lived there 10-12 years ago) blessedly free of the weird daylight mugging/sexual assault spike that the rest of Ecuador was dealing with at the time.

    It even had pedalos.
    I am spending approximately 30% of every day in a rocking chair

    I love it, too

    It’s gone straight into my top ten towns worldwide. And I’ve been to a fuck of a lot of towns

    Sensational

    And the coffee!!!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    And it's a big lead. Con 50 plays Lab 23 . Is that recoverable even in four and a half years?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053

    I could work in the public sector but I'd take a 30% salary cut. I get the pension but that's not relevant to me at the moment and won't be for a long time.

    Increase the salary of public sector engineers 30% and we can talk.

    There's another point: at the top end of the public sector you have to work very hard and long hours, and drop everything for a minister at any hour night or day, whilst carrying a lot of dross in your department beneath you who are basically passengers. I bet it's thankless, stressful and utterly relentless.

    I suppose the reward one day is a gong, as well as the final salary pension, but you can't blame many for quitting and going to work as a Big 4 partner instead, where they might make salaries and bonuses that creep into 7 figures.
    I have to work very long and hard hours now - and I'm in the middle. But the point is that I have ownership in the company I am working for. And I have the ability to make real change. I just don't think I'd get the same opportunities at a public sector organisation or for a large firm.

    The fact my salary doubled when I moved here is another nice bonus and my pension is decent, it's just not something that I think appeals to many people. So I'd cut the pension significantly in the public sector and pay people a lot more money.
    If public sector people were paid more, they could choose whether to put some or all of their extra pay into AVCs or a SIPP.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


    You're in Mompos? I bloody love that place. What proportion of your time is spent in a rocking chair? As I recall that was the main industry.

    Oh and, a couple of days late...if you want a backwater, you could do worse than Loja in Ecuador. It's like a mountainous version of Mompos. Surrounded by cloud forest and (when I lived there 10-12 years ago) blessedly free of the weird daylight mugging/sexual assault spike that the rest of Ecuador was dealing with at the time.

    It even had pedalos.
    Your reply is doubly brilliant because it means I am likely NOT the first PBer to do this

    Tho maybe the “happy nebbi” beer marks me out, still
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 5

    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Really? What does it matter if you take a poll hit 4-5 years out from an election?
    A lot, especially for oppositions, pensioners never forgive nor forget betrayals in the ballot box and if the Tories abandon the Triple Lock after Labour cut WFA pensioners would abandon both for the LDs who have promised to keep the WFA and Triple Lock
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Really? What does it matter if you take a poll hit 4-5 years out from an election?
    A lot, especially for oppositions, pensioners never forgive nor forget betrayals and if the Tories abandon the Triple Lock after Labour cut WFA pensioners would abandon both for the LDs who have promised to keep the WFA and Triple Lock
    The fact pensioners have so much influence is something that Starmer should have dealt with already.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Jeez, these guys are nuts.

    Launching a new anti-woke ETF today at Mar-a-Lago, @j_fishback says we could get 8-10% deflation and that it would be a “good thing.” Says AI and other innovations will open up “golden age” for US economy..
    https://x.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1864694980314362041
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Mompox js so great I think I would actually spend my own money to come here. Yes. That good
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 5
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    PJH said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that I do rate with the Labour relaunch is that they've recognised the problem of public sector productivity, I'm looking forwards to their solutions. If it doesn't include pay and hiring freezes as well as job cuts across departments including the NHS then they won't get anywhere. We need more output with a reduction in input. Businesses achieve this all the time, now it's time for the public sector to do the same.

    You need to do the opposite in a lot of cases. Pay rises where necessary to reach market rates so all the vacancies can be filled, and those expensive consultants (like me) costing £1k+ per day to fill all the gaps can be given their marching orders. Then stuff might actually be done, for less.

    (I should add I don't get anything like £1k per day, plenty of others are dipping their beaks in the trough ahead of me).
    Ban consultancy and agency workers for a period of 2 years and implement a one in one out policy if they need expertise. Get rid of people before anyone can be hired. Also, most of the management consultants are shit anyway.
    How are you going to implement any IT project, to improve productivity, with civil service pay scales and a ban on consultants?
    Hire permanently at proper market rate. Don't get someone from a consultancy for £2-3k per day for 3 months who's expertise disappears and then hire another different consultant for another £2-3k per day when the system that was built by the first one fucks up.

    As I'm currently in gardening leave and have the type of skillset that is desired for those projects I can reasonably say that the permanent salaries that I get contacted about even among the top brackets are pitiful. One was a £70k pay cut vs my last position and a full week vs a 4 day week I had before. It's fundamentally not competitive to be in the public sector for highly skilled people unless you're a doctor or medical consultant. The salaries are just awful and all of the people who work in the public sector just tell me how frustrating it is because morons at the top who don't know what they're doing are in charge so nothing gets done.

    I'd also clear out the "management class" and put operational people in charge. I've been managed by non-technical people in the past and it always ends in disaster because they're idiots who think they know best but are generally clueless and hinder work and progress.
    'The salaries are just awful' Given median pay in the public sector is still higher than in the private sector what must salaries be like for the average private sector worker? Beyond absymal?
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8037/CBP-8037.pdf (p18)
    That's across all roles. In senior technical roles public sector salaries can be 30-40% lower than the private sector. What's ridiculous is that if the public sector shit canned consultants and pushed the fees into competitive salaries the gap would be a lot lower and stability much higher. The only downsides would be engineering management who aren't engineers but that can also be fixed by firing the existing management class in the state sector.
    Just because you are a good engineer doesn't mean you make a good manager, not least as public sector managers to have manage a set budget from taxpayers
    That's true but not all engineers want or need to be managers. EMs that can't code are useless. You only need a handful of engineers that are technically minded to be able to manage teams/departments it just means you need to pay them accordingly to get them in. The EM at my previous company made £180k per year but he was brilliant and worth the money. The chances of someone earning that for the same role in the state is less than zero.
    Well of course they are as the taxpayer would be paying for it.

    If you are really bright and talented in your field you will almost always prefer to work in the private sector as the pay is more and often comes with significant share options too. If you are only average or below average in skill then the public sector is often a better bet if you can get a job there as minimum and average pay tends to be higher with a better pension and often longer leave and more flexible working.
    Yes but the problem, HYUFD, is that the skills are still necessary in the public sector and they end up getting in a series of consultants on £2-3k day rates instead of just getting a permanent hire with a skillset that can handle multiple projects at once. We still end up paying for it but instead of adding those skills permanently the taxpayer just gets ripped off by tech consultancy firms. I just don't think you properly understand how it works in the tech sector.
    I don't disagree with more permanent IT hires and less consultants though in the public sector
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Really? What does it matter if you take a poll hit 4-5 years out from an election?
    A lot, especially for oppositions, pensioners never forgive nor forget betrayals and if the Tories abandon the Triple Lock after Labour cut WFA pensioners would abandon both for the LDs who have promised to keep the WFA and Triple Lock
    The fact pensioners have so much influence is something that Starmer should have dealt with already.
    How? Assisted dying mandatory after 65?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Cancel culture alive in CA

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  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    Nigelb said:

    Cancel culture alive in CA

    Tsunami Warning CANCELED
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    One cancellation we can all be glad of.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


    You're in Mompos? I bloody love that place. What proportion of your time is spent in a rocking chair? As I recall that was the main industry.

    Oh and, a couple of days late...if you want a backwater, you could do worse than Loja in Ecuador. It's like a mountainous version of Mompos. Surrounded by cloud forest and (when I lived there 10-12 years ago) blessedly free of the weird daylight mugging/sexual assault spike that the rest of Ecuador was dealing with at the time.

    It even had pedalos.
    Your reply is doubly brilliant because it means I am likely NOT the first PBer to do this

    Tho maybe the “happy nebbi” beer marks me out, still
    I thought about mentioning that fact but didn't want to burst your bubble.

    But now I think about it there is something far more pleasing about the idea of being one of only two PBers to experience Mompos, rather than being alone in that fact.

    We can be smugly superior to the rest of these losers.

    I shall still run you through with a machete when you take up arms on behalf of the fascist cause in a few years time, but shall endeavour to toast your taste in small island backwaters before I do so.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811
    Currently reading an early Evelyn Waugh travel book ("Labels") about his travels around the Med. A sparky read, of course, with few concessions.

    Apropos the news from Afghanistan, this line, describing Crete (which had lately been run by the Ottomans) rather struck me: "The women assumed that decent unobtrusiveness that usually survives for a generation or two after Moslem domination". Maybe one day a visitor to Kabul may make a similar observation.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Really? What does it matter if you take a poll hit 4-5 years out from an election?
    A lot, especially for oppositions, pensioners never forgive nor forget betrayals and if the Tories abandon the Triple Lock after Labour cut WFA pensioners would abandon both for the LDs who have promised to keep the WFA and Triple Lock
    The fact pensioners have so much influence is something that Starmer should have dealt with already.
    How? Assisted dying mandatory after 65?
    Get rid of the triple lock. How about also making it so it's harder for the elderly to vote as right now they can use their bus pass whereas young people can't use their Oyster.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,987

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour have just leaked that the Tories want rid of the triple lock.

    YES! Good policy, get rid! Go Badenoch!

    Mel Stride saying in long term unsustainable but not good given pensioners are our core vote, thank goodness he was not elected leader. If we take a poll hit on this after today's great Tory lead poll Kemi will have to sack him

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/05/mel-stride-pension-triple-lock-unsustainable/
    Really? What does it matter if you take a poll hit 4-5 years out from an election?
    A lot, especially for oppositions, pensioners never forgive nor forget betrayals and if the Tories abandon the Triple Lock after Labour cut WFA pensioners would abandon both for the LDs who have promised to keep the WFA and Triple Lock
    The fact pensioners have so much influence is something that Starmer should have dealt with already.
    How? Assisted dying mandatory after 65?
    Get rid of the triple lock. How about also making it so it's harder for the elderly to vote as right now they can use their bus pass whereas young people can't use their Oyster.
    There comes a time in everyone's lives when their oyster no longer functions as well as it did in their youth. Just you wait, mister Horse.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,987
    Leon said:

    Mompox js so great I think I would actually spend my own money to come here. Yes. That good

    I honestly thought you were talking about a new JavaScript framework for a second.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    A dad and his 10 year old daughter - both barefoot - yet she’s in a cool Stetson - have both just gone to the riverbank in front of me to do some fishing. Next to the pier where Simón Bolivar landed his troops as he began the liberation of South America

    A 90cm yellow iguana with magnificent spinal flares is glaring at me as I ponder whether to have the postre del dio. Two beautiful girls are in rocking chairs five rocking chairs down talking about art (I think, or maybe it’s sex)

    I can hear jamiroquai playing. Also parrots screeching from the banana trees. Otherwise it’s quiet. The River Maddalena floats by, eternally and magnificently indifferent. Like God
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    edited December 5
    More on this. Turns out "the Blob" wasn't just a Tory fantasy.

    "Keir Starmer is right: the “paranoid” civil service does need change
    Starmer's former advisor, Peter Hyman, calls for dramatic Whitehall reform.

    Hyman, who served under both Tony Blair and Keir Starmer, discusses the difficulties Labour will face in implementing their missions and is scathing about Whitehall, saying resistance from staffers is stifling innovation. “Three permanent secretaries I’ve heard in the last month have been resisting having outsiders come in to help,” he says."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/podcasts/politics-podcast/2024/12/keir-starmer-is-right-the-paranoid-civil-service-does-need-change
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835
    Leon said:

    A dad and his 10 year old daughter - both barefoot - yet she’s in a cool Stetson - have both just gone to the riverbank in front of me to do some fishing. Next to the pier where Simón Bolivar landed his troops as he began the liberation of South America

    A 90cm yellow iguana with magnificent spinal flares is glaring at me as I ponder whether to have the postre del dio. Two beautiful girls are in rocking chairs five rocking chairs down talking about art (I think, or maybe it’s sex)

    I can hear jamiroquai playing. Also parrots screeching from the banana trees. Otherwise it’s quiet. The River Maddalena floats by, eternally and magnificently indifferent. Like God

    From wikivoyage:

    "The former botanical gardens are now permanently closed due to lack of funding. Information is retained here for historical reasons, or in case you can persuade someone to show you round! The botanical gardens appear, at first sight, to be rather unkept and overgrown. The principal reason to visit this place may be to talk to the guide, Don Ernesto, who resembles a living encyclopedia with his extensive knowledge about all the plants and trees in the garden, including their medicinal properties. Although this man has never received a formal education he is extremely knowledgeable in general. Sadly, the future of the botanic garden seems to be uncertain, as the local council are not supporting it, and the owners are considering selling it as they cannot afford to keep it running."

    I wonder what the status is now, and whether Don Ernesto survives.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Mompox js so great I think I would actually spend my own money to come here. Yes. That good

    I honestly thought you were talking about a new JavaScript framework for a second.
    You calked
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    Am I literally the first PBer to sit in a rocking chair under the 17th century colonnade of the Portales de la Marquesa once occupied by world famous naturalist Alexander von Humboldt in the remote Colombian town of Santa Cruz de Mompox while taking a double espresso with a tasty cold glass of “happy nebbi” cerveza artesanal as I stare at the might River Maddalena?


    You're in Mompos? I bloody love that place. What proportion of your time is spent in a rocking chair? As I recall that was the main industry.

    Oh and, a couple of days late...if you want a backwater, you could do worse than Loja in Ecuador. It's like a mountainous version of Mompos. Surrounded by cloud forest and (when I lived there 10-12 years ago) blessedly free of the weird daylight mugging/sexual assault spike that the rest of Ecuador was dealing with at the time.

    It even had pedalos.
    Your reply is doubly brilliant because it means I am likely NOT the first PBer to do this

    Tho maybe the “happy nebbi” beer marks me out, still
    I thought about mentioning that fact but didn't want to burst your bubble.

    But now I think about it there is something far more pleasing about the idea of being one of only two PBers to experience Mompos, rather than being alone in that fact.

    We can be smugly superior to the rest of these losers.

    I shall still run you through with a machete when you take up arms on behalf of the fascist cause in a few years time, but shall endeavour to toast your taste in small island backwaters before I do so.
    Very fair. Tho we shall win

    Me ne frego!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    Nigelb said:

    Cancel culture alive in CA

    Tsunami Warning CANCELED
    https://x.com/NWSBayArea/status/1864761327237107812

    Bloody anti-woke Tsunami warnings.
This discussion has been closed.