So who do we think might be able to form a government in France, that’s acceptable to both Parliament and Macron, or are we heading for Parliamentary elections in the new year?
Somewhat embarrassing for Macron not to have a PM for his big party at Notre Dame this weekend, with 50 heads of State and Government expected to attend.
True of course and it can produce results that are even less proportional than FPTP, however that only tends to happen if one side wins very big anyway, so probably isn't as much of an issue. Given a choice I would go for STV as being more proportional and overcomes the issues raised by FPTP proponents. I do however prefer AV to FPTP as being more representative in most cases even if not PR.
AV, a mild variant of FPTP, provides the only change needed, as it simply allows the voter to express their real preference without having to believe their vote is 100% wasted; and thereby gives a proper chance to newcomer parties who are prepared to dig in for the long term. And gives a realistic chance of stable government.
FPTP (as now or with AV) has great merits. As it stands now what needs to happen is a shift of perspective, which is falsified by overpolling.
Our system is not based on national vote %s but on seats. 650 simultaneous local by-elections are individual contests in which you have to win the local seat, not just be part of a national mood. Out of 650 local elections a government is formed. This is exactly as it should be in the UK with our particular constitutional history.
The most important fact about Labour is not the 34% national vote. It was their ability to come first in 411 local elections. The rules are the same for everyone, and it is good for national politics to bend to the local.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Dyson creates wealth in... Malaysia.
Reeves destroys wealth in Britain
Christ on a bike. Do you have a selection of dumb posts that you can easily select to slag off Reeves.
My earlier post was not uncritical but all yours are a not a particularly imaginative version of "Reeves is shit".
Anyway I'm off to work. I can't spend all day with all you job seeker claimants.
"Reeves is shit" Im glad to see youre coming round to my point of view
You'd save everyone a lot of reading time if you just posted "Reeves is shit" every post. Your posts generally say nothing more, so that saves both you and us time.
The other advantage for him is that such a posting does not require punctuation, which he “can’t be arsed” to do. Trebles all round!
Pedantic note: it does require a full stop. But maybe he can "be arsed" to do it just once as a Christmastide present for all of us.
So the premise of the thread is simply wrong - the poll doesn't show that voters regret how they voted in the 2011 referendum at all. It is like saying that because Britons back assisted dying they would vote to bring back capital punishment, or for that matter going to war with Portugal - the two proposals are simply unrelated.
Very few options on offer are Proportional Representation and they misrepresent what they are offering. Proportional Representation is not Equal Representation or an equal share of power
Mrs B of great lamented memory was "leader" of six "Independents" on a council of 52 where conrol was split between four groupings. By leader I mean she told the other five what to do. Through five changes of control on the council Mrs B remained the representative on the Local Authority Association whatever it was called. She effectively played one off against another.
The LDs have always assumed they would do that under PR. That is why Blair went for closed De Hondt for the Euro elections. Didn't work as the electorate voted them out when they wanted change - ie no more Blair.
Even in Ireland this time where they use the only remotely fair system STV Fine Gael managed to lose a seat on the last count even though they had two candidates still in the run with way more votes together than the candidate who was elected. They were too close in numbers to be voted out. I must admit I thought that was not possible, so I learnt something.
Also for STV to produce PR you need large constituencies with at least ten members. 3, 4 or 5 member constituencies still produce a carve up, again vide Ireland.
All correct, and there are flaws in PR, AV, STV without a doubt. But to borrow a phrase from WSC it is about choosing the least worst system. FPTP fails this, which was why I (even though right of centre), voted for AV and would do so again.
There is no such thing as a budget that can't be attacked, as there is no such thing as a tax which everyone approves of. Dyson, while very obviously engaging in special pleading - which is fair enough - does not say where the burden should fall instead. This renders his thoughts mere polemic.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
Actually him being located in Malaysia isn't all about tax efficiency and lower wages. The world leading company for taking a design and converting it into a product that can be mass produced / organizing and handling of the whole product line is based there. They provide a one stop service such that you can take your product design and they will basically handle as little or as much of having the physical product made.
I lived near the Dyson facility in Wiltshire for a while. The incomer NIMBYs were utterly clear that they wouldn’t allow him to expand the site. This was long before Brexit.
Which is why he moved production elsewhere - the company was growing and there was not enough space there for the engineering, design etc *and* manufacturing.
One arsehole got what he deserved. He legally harassed a farmer all the time. Lawsuits every year about nothing. When they passed, their son sold the farm. No, not to Dyson. But to a developer. He made sure that the fuckwit going to have *all* the traffic on his lane, for years.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
There is no such thing as a budget that can't be attacked, as there is no such thing as a tax which everyone approves of. Dyson, while very obviously engaging in special pleading - which is fair enough - does not say where the burden should fall instead. This renders his thoughts mere polemic.
A true Dyson would suck it up
Yes but we would not want him absent from the debate as that might create a vacuum.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful graph, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
I read an article (can't remember where - one of those rare items which could just as easily be the Guardian as the Telegraph as the Times) which called the Henry one of the few British products with no class markers whatsover. It is equally easy to imagine one in Buckingham Palace as in suburban Hampstead or in Blackpool or Rotherham.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful diagram, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving lice as I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. it's a miracle he never injured someone.
Amazes me that any 86 year old can do a billion miles but there we are lol.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Dyson creates wealth in... Malaysia.
Reeves destroys wealth in Britain
Christ on a bike. Do you have a selection of dumb posts that you can easily select to slag off Reeves.
My earlier post was not uncritical but all yours are a not a particularly imaginative version of "Reeves is shit".
Anyway I'm off to work. I can't spend all day with all you job seeker claimants.
"Reeves is shit" Im glad to see youre coming round to my point of view
You'd save everyone a lot of reading time if you just posted "Reeves is shit" every post. Your posts generally say nothing more, so that saves both you and us time.
The other advantage for him is that such a posting does not require punctuation, which he “can’t be arsed” to do. Trebles all round!
Pedantic note: it does require a full stop. But maybe he can "be arsed" to do it just once as a Christmastide present for all of us.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
So the premise of the thread is simply wrong - the poll doesn't show that voters regret how they voted in the 2011 referendum at all. It is like saying that because Britons back assisted dying they would vote to bring back capital punishment, or for that matter going to war with Portugal - the two proposals are simply unrelated.
Very few options on offer are Proportional Representation and they misrepresent what they are offering. Proportional Representation is not Equal Representation or an equal share of power
Mrs B of great lamented memory was "leader" of six "Independents" on a council of 52 where conrol was split between four groupings. By leader I mean she told the other five what to do. Through five changes of control on the council Mrs B remained the representative on the Local Authority Association whatever it was called. She effectively played one off against another.
The LDs have always assumed they would do that under PR. That is why Blair went for closed De Hondt for the Euro elections. Didn't work as the electorate voted them out when they wanted change - ie no more Blair.
Even in Ireland this time where they use the only remotely fair system STV Fine Gael managed to lose a seat on the last count even though they had two candidates still in the run with way more votes together than the candidate who was elected. They were too close in numbers to be voted out. I must admit I thought that was not possible, so I learnt something.
Also for STV to produce PR you need large constituencies with at least ten members. 3, 4 or 5 member constituencies still produce a carve up, again vide Ireland.
Yes, it was only after the very thorough piece on the Irish elections that I realised the parties tuned the number of candidates they put up to minimise vote splitting.
So who do we think might be able to form a government in France, that’s acceptable to both Parliament and Macron, or are we heading for Parliamentary elections in the new year?
Somewhat embarrassing for Macron not to have a PM for his big party at Notre Dame this weekend, with 50 heads of State and Government expected to attend.
I suspect it will be a moderate Socialist as the leftwing block plus Macron's has a clear majority in the Assembly
He can only really go to the left now because the LR/RN outreach hasn’t worked.
It will be easier said than done getting a moderate leftist to be backed by LFI though. But I suspect like you they’ll hold their nose and tolerate it, at least until July.
This all comes with a massive disclaimer that I am far from an expert on French politics. In fact I think it’s one a lot of us find quite difficult, which is odd, them being our close neighbour. It’s that Gallic and Napoleonic sensibility that I think feels a little removed and opaque from our experience.
So the premise of the thread is simply wrong - the poll doesn't show that voters regret how they voted in the 2011 referendum at all. It is like saying that because Britons back assisted dying they would vote to bring back capital punishment, or for that matter going to war with Portugal - the two proposals are simply unrelated.
Very few options on offer are Proportional Representation and they misrepresent what they are offering. Proportional Representation is not Equal Representation or an equal share of power
Mrs B of great lamented memory was "leader" of six "Independents" on a council of 52 where conrol was split between four groupings. By leader I mean she told the other five what to do. Through five changes of control on the council Mrs B remained the representative on the Local Authority Association whatever it was called. She effectively played one off against another.
The LDs have always assumed they would do that under PR. That is why Blair went for closed De Hondt for the Euro elections. Didn't work as the electorate voted them out when they wanted change - ie no more Blair.
Even in Ireland this time where they use the only remotely fair system STV Fine Gael managed to lose a seat on the last count even though they had two candidates still in the run with way more votes together than the candidate who was elected. They were too close in numbers to be voted out. I must admit I thought that was not possible, so I learnt something.
Also for STV to produce PR you need large constituencies with at least ten members. 3, 4 or 5 member constituencies still produce a carve up, again vide Ireland.
All correct, and there are flaws in PR, AV, STV without a doubt. But to borrow a phrase from WSC it is about choosing the least worst system. FPTP fails this, which was why I (even though right of centre), voted for AV and would do so again.
Yes,no system is perfect and we need a sensible debate about what would serve us best now.
FPTP has serrved us well for a very long time, but its manifest flaws are no longer acceptable and it is high time we tried something else.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
You can write to the DoT if you think someone shouldn't drive, but it may not be acted upon. I tried that with my brother and all I got was flak from my sister-in-law.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
I read an article (can't remember where - one of those rare items which could just as easily be the Guardian as the Telegraph as the Times) which called the Henry one of the few British products with no class markers whatsover. It is equally easy to imagine one in Buckingham Palace as in suburban Hampstead or in Blackpool or Rotherham.
Interesting point, but one that might have to be modified by who is doing the vacuuming!
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful diagram, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving lice as I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. it's a miracle he never injured someone.
I think one issue will be testing capacity in the system - COVID delays have largely worked through, but not completely. And the booking system is too manipulable by what in the Ebay system are known as bid-snipers (who put in a winning bid say 1-5 seconds before close), who grab bookings and sell them on like ticket touts.
I expect that Optometrists will supply a certificate say every 2 or 3 years, which can be done with a normal eye test, which would either be supplied direct to the DVLA so police can check via the radio, or be producible on demand.
Given that there are 1.65 million drivers over 80, and another 4.8 million between 70 and 80, I would expect eyesight it to start at 2 or 3-yearly checks at 80+, and then roll back to 75+. So we would end up on current numbers of around 3.5 million drivers needing to do it.
The 3-yearly renewal infrastructure is in place for 70+, as that is required already, so if it was rolled into driving licenses from 70 there's little extra overhead for the DVLA. It could probably be phased in quite quickly.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
You can write to the DoT if you think someone shouldn't drive, but it may not be acted upon. I tried that with my brother and all I got was flak from my sister-in-law.
I would find it difficult to go behind the sons back as I have known the family for 60 years, and he is aware of the problem
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
They will all be setting up trusts if they have any sense
They are perfectly entitled to do that within current guidance They can also hand their estates over to Keith and kin seven years before they die too. There are already ways around the IHT that any competent YTS book keeping trainee could advise them so to do without a tractor procession through Westminster.
Not everybody is financially streetwise and people get caught. My Dad was clobbered. IHT is inquitous below say... 5 million assets
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
You can write to the DoT if you think someone shouldn't drive, but it may not be acted upon. I tried that with my brother and all I got was flak from my sister-in-law.
I would find it difficult to go behind the sons back as I have known the family for 60 years, and he is aware of the problem
No need to be sneaky. Tell him what you are doing, or invite him to do the same.
I told my brother I was writing, and why. Response from the DoT was however pretty tepid.
Edit: Anyway, to lighten the tone I can tell you about an elderly neighbour who was a very bad driver and knew it. He was however happy enough to drive as long as he only had to make left turns. He skilfully worked out all the local routes he needed could be reached by using left turns only. Some of the journeys took him ages but it didn't matter....and in the end, nobody got hurt.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
We're in the market for a new chordless vacuum cleaner now our Dyson V15 has just about given up the ghost.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
I read an article (can't remember where - one of those rare items which could just as easily be the Guardian as the Telegraph as the Times) which called the Henry one of the few British products with no class markers whatsover. It is equally easy to imagine one in Buckingham Palace as in suburban Hampstead or in Blackpool or Rotherham.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
What's the point of Police and Crime Commissioners if deployment decisions like this are taken in Whitehall? Though no doubt they'll be happy to gobble up the cash without demur.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
Another Henry household here.
You only have to go to the local tip to see that Dysons are 99% marketing.
So the premise of the thread is simply wrong - the poll doesn't show that voters regret how they voted in the 2011 referendum at all. It is like saying that because Britons back assisted dying they would vote to bring back capital punishment, or for that matter going to war with Portugal - the two proposals are simply unrelated.
Very few options on offer are Proportional Representation and they misrepresent what they are offering. Proportional Representation is not Equal Representation or an equal share of power
Mrs B of great lamented memory was "leader" of six "Independents" on a council of 52 where conrol was split between four groupings. By leader I mean she told the other five what to do. Through five changes of control on the council Mrs B remained the representative on the Local Authority Association whatever it was called. She effectively played one off against another.
The LDs have always assumed they would do that under PR. That is why Blair went for closed De Hondt for the Euro elections. Didn't work as the electorate voted them out when they wanted change - ie no more Blair.
Even in Ireland this time where they use the only remotely fair system STV Fine Gael managed to lose a seat on the last count even though they had two candidates still in the run with way more votes together than the candidate who was elected. They were too close in numbers to be voted out. I must admit I thought that was not possible, so I learnt something.
Also for STV to produce PR you need large constituencies with at least ten members. 3, 4 or 5 member constituencies still produce a carve up, again vide Ireland.
All correct, and there are flaws in PR, AV, STV without a doubt. But to borrow a phrase from WSC it is about choosing the least worst system. FPTP fails this, which was why I (even though right of centre), voted for AV and would do so again.
Yes,no system is perfect and we need a sensible debate about what would serve us best now.
FPTP has serrved us well for a very long time, but its manifest flaws are no longer acceptable and it is high time we tried something else.
In my opinion FPTP is ok for a 2 party system, like the parliamentary system pre 20th century, and the US presidential i suppose. This is where "the post" comes from. 50% in a 2 party system. Since in the uk we haven't had a 2 party system since the late 50s, we should have changed by now.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
We're in the market for a new chordless vacuum cleaner now our Dyson V15 has just about given up the ghost.
May well look at a chordless Numatic.
Vax are an efficient, economical make. Just make sure your carpet is properly nailed down, first.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
I read an article (can't remember where - one of those rare items which could just as easily be the Guardian as the Telegraph as the Times) which called the Henry one of the few British products with no class markers whatsover. It is equally easy to imagine one in Buckingham Palace as in suburban Hampstead or in Blackpool or Rotherham.
Interesting point, but one that might have to be modified by who is doing the vacuuming!
The guy who invented it in 1981, Chris Duncan, is 84, and still owns the business. I hope he has his iHT arrangements in place .
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
I read an article (can't remember where - one of those rare items which could just as easily be the Guardian as the Telegraph as the Times) which called the Henry one of the few British products with no class markers whatsover. It is equally easy to imagine one in Buckingham Palace as in suburban Hampstead or in Blackpool or Rotherham.
Hampstead isn't suburban. Mouth out with soap.
@Cookie might be thinking of Hampstead Garden you-know-what.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
To start with - you’ll need office space. This is because beat officers have a whole bunch of paperwork to do. All of it mandatory, some of it legally required.
Then you have the kit. Which isn’t cheap and wears out.
Then you have vehicles. Even if they are pavement pounding (which doesn’t really work), they need to get to and from their beat. Also there needs to be a ratio of officers available per officer on the beat for support. With vehicles.
So suddenly you need bigger police stations, vehicle yards, more maintenance.
If it was that cheap and simple, it would have been done long ago.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
We're in the market for a new chordless vacuum cleaner now our Dyson V15 has just about given up the ghost.
May well look at a chordless Numatic.
Can't you treat your Dyson to a new battery or whatever part is dying?
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
Another Henry household here.
You only have to go to the local tip to see that Dysons are 99% marketing.
I think Numatic should get into the EV business. Imagine a nice red car called Henry, with a smiley face and a dodgems-style wraparound bumper designed to allow you to bash your away around the streets and parking spaces. Would sell well in France I reckon.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
What's the point of Police and Crime Commissioners if deployment decisions like this are taken in Whitehall? Though no doubt they'll be happy to gobble up the cash without demur.
Personally I'd deploy the Political Crime Commissioners (in the case of our last one in Notts, literally - she got herself banned from driving in a very few months) to the unemployment office, and have an extra ~200 PCSOs instead from just the 2x salary costs, and however many more I could get for the overheads etc.
Matthew Parris is in decent form today defending FPTP in today's Speccie. He is right. (Government requires decisions between binary choices, so coalition isn't capable of producing a proper government programme).
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
We're in the market for a new chordless vacuum cleaner now our Dyson V15 has just about given up the ghost.
May well look at a chordless Numatic.
Can't you treat your Dyson to a new battery or whatever part is dying?
I am not sure what is. The suction does not work on the highest setting now.
I suspect there is some sort of dust and particle ingress into the motor.
My concern is that the cost of repair, although probably less than the cost of new, would be quite expensive so it is better to buy new.
So who do we think might be able to form a government in France, that’s acceptable to both Parliament and Macron, or are we heading for Parliamentary elections in the new year?
Somewhat embarrassing for Macron not to have a PM for his big party at Notre Dame this weekend, with 50 heads of State and Government expected to attend.
I suspect it will be a moderate Socialist as the leftwing block plus Macron's has a clear majority in the Assembly
He can only really go to the left now because the LR/RN outreach hasn’t worked.
It will be easier said than done getting a moderate leftist to be backed by LFI though. But I suspect like you they’ll hold their nose and tolerate it, at least until July.
This all comes with a massive disclaimer that I am far from an expert on French politics. In fact I think it’s one a lot of us find quite difficult, which is odd, them being our close neighbour. It’s that Gallic and Napoleonic sensibility that I think feels a little removed and opaque from our experience.
The Socialist PM Macron has to appoint now will almost certainly have to raise taxes to fund the extra spending Melenchon will demand for his support.
That means Barnier's LRs will join the RN in opposing the new government but it should still win a confidence vote as the left block plus Macron's block combined have a majority
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
Another Henry household here.
You only have to go to the local tip to see that Dysons are 99% marketing.
We have two Henrys, so that Mrs PtP doesn't have to carry one upstairs.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
Oh you can't trust the specials like the old-time coppers when you can't find your way home but Specials and PCSOs are a great deal cheaper which is no doubt how Starmer will square the circle.
PSCOs still get paid £25k a year (and of course you roughly double a salary as the cost to employ somebody when you factor in NI, pension, uniform etc). There is going to have to be a very large number of volunteers.
Does Starmer really think he can get an extra 13,000 special constables with £100 million? That's £7,600 for each officer. Hmmm ......
Edited: I see the figure is £400 million. Still seems unlikely.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
To start with - you’ll need office space. This is because beat officers have a whole bunch of paperwork to do. All of it mandatory, some of it legally required.
Then you have the kit. Which isn’t cheap and wears out.
Then you have vehicles. Even if they are pavement pounding (which doesn’t really work), they need to get to and from their beat. Also there needs to be a ratio of officers available per officer on the beat for support. With vehicles.
So suddenly you need bigger police stations, vehicle yards, more maintenance.
If it was that cheap and simple, it would have been done long ago.
Surely the record keeping will be digital, and be completed in the field on a handheld device? No need for an office.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
I read an article (can't remember where - one of those rare items which could just as easily be the Guardian as the Telegraph as the Times) which called the Henry one of the few British products with no class markers whatsover. It is equally easy to imagine one in Buckingham Palace as in suburban Hampstead or in Blackpool or Rotherham.
Hampstead isn't suburban. Mouth out with soap.
@Cookie might be thinking of Hampstead Garden you-know-what.
Ah. Ok. Different story that is. Not my cup of tea but the topiary there is amazing.
So who do we think might be able to form a government in France, that’s acceptable to both Parliament and Macron, or are we heading for Parliamentary elections in the new year?
Somewhat embarrassing for Macron not to have a PM for his big party at Notre Dame this weekend, with 50 heads of State and Government expected to attend.
I suspect it will be a moderate Socialist as the leftwing block plus Macron's has a clear majority in the Assembly
He can only really go to the left now because the LR/RN outreach hasn’t worked.
It will be easier said than done getting a moderate leftist to be backed by LFI though. But I suspect like you they’ll hold their nose and tolerate it, at least until July.
This all comes with a massive disclaimer that I am far from an expert on French politics. In fact I think it’s one a lot of us find quite difficult, which is odd, them being our close neighbour. It’s that Gallic and Napoleonic sensibility that I think feels a little removed and opaque from our experience.
The Socialist PM Macron has to appoint now will almost certainly have to raise taxes to fund the extra spending Melenchon will demand for his support.
That means Barnier's LRs will join the RN in opposing the new government but it should still win a confidence vote as the left block plus Macron's block combined have a majority
That's a fair evaluation, but anyone would have to do it imo.
France is currently running a Government deficit of 6%+ of GDP, compared to ~4% in the UK.
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
Another Henry household here.
You only have to go to the local tip to see that Dysons are 99% marketing.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
Oh you can't trust the specials like the old-time coppers when you can't find your way home but Specials and PCSOs are a great deal cheaper which is no doubt how Starmer will square the circle.
PSCOs still get paid £25k a year (and of course you roughly double a salary as the cost to employ somebody when you factor in NI, pension, uniform etc). There is going to have to be a very large number of volunteers.
Does Starmer really think he can get an extra 13,000 special constables with £100 million? That's £7,600 for each officer. Hmmm ......
Edited: I see the figure is £400 million. Still seems unlikely.
Special Constables are volunteers - but they still need training, equipping etc.
IIRC they don't save very much, because they are part time. So they do a fraction of the hours of a regular officer, and while the salary are reduced, they aren't reduced *that* much.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
To start with - you’ll need office space. This is because beat officers have a whole bunch of paperwork to do. All of it mandatory, some of it legally required.
Then you have the kit. Which isn’t cheap and wears out.
Then you have vehicles. Even if they are pavement pounding (which doesn’t really work), they need to get to and from their beat. Also there needs to be a ratio of officers available per officer on the beat for support. With vehicles.
So suddenly you need bigger police stations, vehicle yards, more maintenance.
If it was that cheap and simple, it would have been done long ago.
Surely the record keeping will be digital, and be completed in the field on a handheld device? No need for an office.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Best joke all morning. The Process State is alive and very well in the Police Service.
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
The manifesto pledge was £400m a year. No idea where the Guardian gets £100m comes from (is that new money?). I'd say there's an element of "frontline first" there around the reallocation, and PCSOs is the correct target for community coppers. £400m/13,000 is £30k, so it's most of what is needed but would not cover overheads etc. Could it be from savings on the billions spent on warehousing people and not addressing asylum by the previous Govt? Rwanda money?
"13,000 additional neighbourhood police and community PCSOs; and specialist domestic abuse advisers in 999 control rooms at peak times
Police Efficiency and Collaboration Programme
Amount re-allocated,annualised, £400m
A rough estimate of cost to employ is to double an individuals salary* when you factor in NI, pension, training, equipment, etc etc etc. I would presume things like police training is much more costly than employing a new office worker and having them to do the H&S, First Aid, CPD.
* obviously we are talking normal salaries not CEO comp.
The full salary costs incl pension, NI etc for a PCSO is £53k. I found the full policy costings, and here is an excerpt. Costing is by Home Office Special Advisers, and looks OK to me.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024 • There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and deployment of neighbourhood teams.
Absolutely, but as a costing for a manifesto it seems OK.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
To start with - you’ll need office space. This is because beat officers have a whole bunch of paperwork to do. All of it mandatory, some of it legally required.
Then you have the kit. Which isn’t cheap and wears out.
Then you have vehicles. Even if they are pavement pounding (which doesn’t really work), they need to get to and from their beat. Also there needs to be a ratio of officers available per officer on the beat for support. With vehicles.
So suddenly you need bigger police stations, vehicle yards, more maintenance.
If it was that cheap and simple, it would have been done long ago.
When I was in Edinburgh City police in early 1965 we had police boxes which we operated from and phoned in to the station
They had a lot of local information including mug shots of various individuals
We had a one hour beat to follow and return, and if we were late the Chief Inspector would drive our beat seeking us out - no radios then
Does quick maths....they aren't going to be paid very much.....
Oh you can't trust the specials like the old-time coppers when you can't find your way home but Specials and PCSOs are a great deal cheaper which is no doubt how Starmer will square the circle.
PSCOs still get paid £25k a year (and of course you roughly double a salary as the cost to employ somebody when you factor in NI, pension, uniform etc). There is going to have to be a very large number of volunteers.
Does Starmer really think he can get an extra 13,000 special constables with £100 million? That's £7,600 for each officer. Hmmm ......
Edited: I see the figure is £400 million. Still seems unlikely.
Actually my previous quote was for the cost of a Police Constable not a PCSO, a PCSO costs:
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful graph, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
I've got a current interest in this as two-and-a-half years ago, when my licence came up for renewal, I was rapidly losing the use of my limbs and consequently thought I was unfit to drive. So I surrendered it. Six months later I had a spinal operation and while things are still not good, they're improving, and just over a year ago I began to feel that maybe I could drive. So I went and had an assessment, at an an approved Driver Assessment Centre, albeit without a car, and was told that, subject to an actual driving assessment, I was mobile enough, and mentally acute (don't laugh) enough to drive. So, in January of this year I applied to DVLA Swansea for my driving licence again, and filled in a long form about my disabilities. In August (yes, August) I received a reply which told me that DVLA would arrange for me to have an in-car assessment at the centre I'd been to previously. And eventually, in October, I was given one. After which I was told that while I was OK on major roads I tended to drive too close to the middle of minor roads and I didn't use my mirror enough. They recommended that before I had a licence again I should have a few lessons. DVLA confirmed receiving all this and said that if their medical advisor agreed they'd send me a sort of provisional licence, a PADL, which would enable an approved instructor to let me drive an automatic car, which is all I want to do. I'm still waiting!
I'm quite certain that I 'failed' not because of my physical problems but mainly because of the habits I've developed over the 65 years since I passed my initial test. However, were I to start again I would be tempted NOT to tell DVLA about my problems in the first place. However I would recommend anyone who has been driving for many years to have a professional assessment. It did make me think!
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
We're in the market for a new chordless vacuum cleaner now our Dyson V15 has just about given up the ghost.
May well look at a chordless Numatic.
Without coming over all moneysavingexpert, this is a model launched 3 years ago and costs £700
Dyson warranty is either 5 years or 2 years but I'd be looking at them to repair or replace either way.
And if your cordless one hasn't lasted (I assume battery) why go for another cordless ?
A vacuum cleaner sucks up dust in roughly the same way as 100 years ago, they should last 10 years (at least) the 'innovative' features are mainly worthless and add superflous complexity and failure points.
A lot of wilful misrepresentation on here this morning. The £100m is not to fund the new 13,000 roles. It is for 1,200 roles, the others are to be taken from elsewhere and reprioritised to neighbourhood policing, which is what a lot of the public have been calling for, and how things used to be before things got worse.
Blame the Guardian....
The government have still be majorly spinning,
"The extra patrols will be paid for, the Home Office says, by efficiency measures such as standardising procurement.... But the promise is not quite what it seems. The 13,000 extra officers include only 3,000 fully-warranted police - the remainder are made up of community support officers (PCSOs) and volunteer special constables."
"Yvette Cooper is pressed on the fact that fewer than a third of the extra 13,000 police officers promised will be new recruits."
The numbers and details are there, and have been on the web for a very long time, and I've linked them.
Bit I'm dipping out now, as it is a bit logic-choppy.
What we have hear is common or garden journos not getting the real information, with their heads up the rear ends, snorting the shit they are shovelling .
I am not sure the NI changes were wise, but tumbling Dyson's and Clarkson's inheritance tax avoidance game is fine by me.
Dyson creates wealth Reeves doesnt. Who should we listen to ?
Are you mixing up Dyson's very fine vacuum cleaners, of which I own three, with his land-banking?
Aren;t you?
Dyson has been successful with marketing and brittle plastics, personally I hate his vacuum cleaners, which are sold on a misrepresentation (there is a filter that will block and kill the motor if it's not replaced) and offer nothing that a good spec 1990's electrolux couldn't do while collecting everything in a convenient bag. Apart from that he wants to employ people in Malaysia (on Malaysian wages, Ts and Cs) but have them working in the UK. But he might deserve some credit for his apprenticeship scheme, time will tell.
That is a fair analysis. The designs are not as clever as claimed. I have the hand held cyclonic "animal" cleaner. You know the one where the collection cylinder is too narrow to collect beagle hair and blocks to the point of being unusable after 30 seconds. Henry and the GTech are a better combination.
We are a Henry / Gtech household. What I love about Henry is the ease of dragging it around and bashing about the walls. Truly the professional’s choice.
Both are regional British businesses too.
I think I’ve seen Henry in hotels on at least three continents.
A quiet British success story compared to consumer brands such as Dyson.
And still made in Chard, Somerset.
We're in the market for a new chordless vacuum cleaner now our Dyson V15 has just about given up the ghost.
May well look at a chordless Numatic.
Vax are an efficient, economical make. Just make sure your carpet is properly nailed down, first.
No longer made in Droitwich if buying British is a box to tick.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful graph, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
I've got a current interest in this as two-and-a-half years ago, when my licence came up for renewal, I was rapidly losing the use of my limbs and consequently thought I was unfit to drive. So I surrendered it. Six months later I had a spinal operation and while things are still not good, they're improving, and just over a year ago I began to feel that maybe I could drive. So I went and had an assessment, at an an approved Driver Assessment Centre, albeit without a car, and was told that, subject to an actual driving assessment, I was mobile enough, and mentally acute (don't laugh) enough to drive. So, in January of this year I applied to DVLA Swansea for my driving licence again, and filled in a long form about my disabilities. In August (yes, August) I received a reply which told me that DVLA would arrange for me to have an in-car assessment at the centre I'd been to previously. And eventually, in October, I was given one. After which I was told that while I was OK on major roads I tended to drive too close to the middle of minor roads and I didn't use my mirror enough. They recommended that before I had a licence again I should have a few lessons. DVLA confirmed receiving all this and said that if their medical advisor agreed they'd send me a sort of provisional licence, a PADL, which would enable an approved instructor to let me drive an automatic car, which is all I want to do. I'm still waiting!
I'm quite certain that I 'failed' not because of my physical problems but mainly because of the habits I've developed over the 65 years since I passed my initial test. However, were I to start again I would be tempted NOT to tell DVLA about my problems in the first place. However I would recommend anyone who has been driving for many years to have a professional assessment. It did make me think!
I hope you receive your licence in due course, but would not recommend keeping health issues from the DVLA as you could put your insurance at risk in the event of a claim
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
I have to say I am concerned that the GP's response is that they 'would prefer' the subject not to drive. Either they are fit for they are not. IANAL but perhaps one or two of those here would like to comment on how they would question in court a GP subsequently to a fatal accident where the driver had been told by their GP that they 'would prefer' them not to drive!
For Big G's neighbours information, there's a Driving Assessment centre at Glan Clwyd Hospital.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful graph, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
I've got a current interest in this as two-and-a-half years ago, when my licence came up for renewal, I was rapidly losing the use of my limbs and consequently thought I was unfit to drive. So I surrendered it. Six months later I had a spinal operation and while things are still not good, they're improving, and just over a year ago I began to feel that maybe I could drive. So I went and had an assessment, at an an approved Driver Assessment Centre, albeit without a car, and was told that, subject to an actual driving assessment, I was mobile enough, and mentally acute (don't laugh) enough to drive. So, in January of this year I applied to DVLA Swansea for my driving licence again, and filled in a long form about my disabilities. In August (yes, August) I received a reply which told me that DVLA would arrange for me to have an in-car assessment at the centre I'd been to previously. And eventually, in October, I was given one. After which I was told that while I was OK on major roads I tended to drive too close to the middle of minor roads and I didn't use my mirror enough. They recommended that before I had a licence again I should have a few lessons. DVLA confirmed receiving all this and said that if their medical advisor agreed they'd send me a sort of provisional licence, a PADL, which would enable an approved instructor to let me drive an automatic car, which is all I want to do. I'm still waiting!
I'm quite certain that I 'failed' not because of my physical problems but mainly because of the habits I've developed over the 65 years since I passed my initial test. However, were I to start again I would be tempted NOT to tell DVLA about my problems in the first place. However I would recommend anyone who has been driving for many years to have a professional assessment. It did make me think!
Very good post, and an illustration of how difficult an issue this can be for older people and their relatives. It’s especially an issue for those who live in more rural areas, and have come to rely on their car because they can’t walk or cycle long distances or carrying loads such as shopping.
The way forward is probably biennial medial assessments though.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
I would have no qualms.
In the 1990s one of my employees died of sclerosis of the liver after he had been on sick leave for several months. After his death one of my other drivers said "you do know the bottle of Lucozade he carried on the vehicle was really cooking sherry?" I asked why he hadn't told me, the response was that I would have sacked him, which was correct. I suggested whether he would have been comfortable with him driving pissed behind their wife and kids. The same applies to your case. Would you be happy for these older dangerous drivers to share the road with your wife, children and grandchildren?
Over the last five years, the budget has increased by nearly a fifth once inflation is taken into account, while the number of staff employed has gone up by almost a quarter. However, the numbers starting treatment has barely changed, only increasing by 3%.
Matthew Parris is in decent form today defending FPTP in today's Speccie. He is right. (Government requires decisions between binary choices, so coalition isn't capable of producing a proper government programme).
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
In my experience, GPs are powerless/unwilling to do anything. Mrs Anabob wrote to the DVLA but we never heard anything back from them. It seems that the law is such that once someone passes their test they have an inalienable right to drive, even if they are clearly unfit to do so?
Always impressed by how many people are drinking alcohol at the airport at 10am.
It's shocking isn't it. We are a nation of alkies.
There are of course a lot of people who drink far too much at airports before boarding a plane, which I don’t dispute and seems to have become a real problem.
I think (purely anecdotally) there’s a lot of people who have 1-2 drinks in an airport though because they don’t really like flying, and it’s a bit of a mood settler.
Over the last five years, the budget has increased by nearly a fifth once inflation is taken into account, while the number of staff employed has gone up by almost a quarter. However, the numbers starting treatment has barely changed, only increasing by 3%.
Over the last five years, the budget has increased by nearly a fifth once inflation is taken into account, while the number of staff employed has gone up by almost a quarter. However, the numbers starting treatment has barely changed, only increasing by 3%.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful graph, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
I've got a current interest in this as two-and-a-half years ago, when my licence came up for renewal, I was rapidly losing the use of my limbs and consequently thought I was unfit to drive. So I surrendered it. Six months later I had a spinal operation and while things are still not good, they're improving, and just over a year ago I began to feel that maybe I could drive. So I went and had an assessment, at an an approved Driver Assessment Centre, albeit without a car, and was told that, subject to an actual driving assessment, I was mobile enough, and mentally acute (don't laugh) enough to drive. So, in January of this year I applied to DVLA Swansea for my driving licence again, and filled in a long form about my disabilities. In August (yes, August) I received a reply which told me that DVLA would arrange for me to have an in-car assessment at the centre I'd been to previously. And eventually, in October, I was given one. After which I was told that while I was OK on major roads I tended to drive too close to the middle of minor roads and I didn't use my mirror enough. They recommended that before I had a licence again I should have a few lessons. DVLA confirmed receiving all this and said that if their medical advisor agreed they'd send me a sort of provisional licence, a PADL, which would enable an approved instructor to let me drive an automatic car, which is all I want to do. I'm still waiting!
I'm quite certain that I 'failed' not because of my physical problems but mainly because of the habits I've developed over the 65 years since I passed my initial test. However, were I to start again I would be tempted NOT to tell DVLA about my problems in the first place. However I would recommend anyone who has been driving for many years to have a professional assessment. It did make me think!
Very good post, and an illustration of how difficult an issue this can be for older people and their relatives. It’s especially an issue for those who live in more rural areas, and have come to rely on their car because they can’t walk or cycle long distances or carrying loads such as shopping.
The way forward is probably biennial medial assessments though.
Yes; I live in an area with one bus an hour each way. It's two buses to both of the 'local' hospital's too.
Always impressed by how many people are drinking alcohol at the airport at 10am.
It's shocking isn't it. We are a nation of alkies.
It is important to remember to sneer at the 10am lager drinkers from the *right* lounge. After the second free G&T.
It needs to be the right lounge. I’m in the bog standard business lounge in T5 where the decidedly non-business looking passengers (this is a noticeable recent trend - civilians travelling business) are tucking into prosecco. No champers or ESW down here in galleries land.
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful diagram, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving lice as I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. it's a miracle he never injured someone.
I think one issue will be testing capacity in the system - COVID delays have largely worked through, but not completely. And the booking system is too manipulable by what in the Ebay system are known as bid-snipers (who put in a winning bid say 1-5 seconds before close), who grab bookings and sell them on like ticket touts.
I expect that Optometrists will supply a certificate say every 2 or 3 years, which can be done with a normal eye test, which would either be supplied direct to the DVLA so police can check via the radio, or be producible on demand.
Given that there are 1.65 million drivers over 80, and another 4.8 million between 70 and 80, I would expect eyesight it to start at 2 or 3-yearly checks at 80+, and then roll back to 75+. So we would end up on current numbers of around 3.5 million drivers needing to do it.
The 3-yearly renewal infrastructure is in place for 70+, as that is required already, so if it was rolled into driving licenses from 70 there's little extra overhead for the DVLA. It could probably be phased in quite quickly.
I'd term it a quick win.
I would imagine many over 60s are already having regular eye tests so this should not be a huge burden
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
I would have no qualms.
In the 1990s one of my employees died of sclerosis of the liver after he had been on sick leave for several months. After his death one of my other drivers said "you do know the bottle of Lucozade he carried on the vehicle was really cooking sherry?" I asked why he hadn't told me, the response was that I would have sacked him, which was correct. I suggested whether he would have been comfortable with him driving pissed behind their wife and kids. The same applies to your case. Would you be happy for these older dangerous drivers to share the road with your wife, children and grandchildren?
None of the neighbours are happy about the situation and have been pro active in attempting to deal with it, but if the GP will not stop her driving then how do you think the DVLA will
Always impressed by how many people are drinking alcohol at the airport at 10am.
It's shocking isn't it. We are a nation of alkies.
There are of course a lot of people who drink far too much at airports before boarding a plane, which I don’t dispute and seems to have become a real problem.
I think (purely anecdotally) there’s a lot of people who have 1-2 drinks in an airport though because they don’t really like flying, and it’s a bit of a mood settler.
Possibly, though there are usually lots of drinkers on morning channel ferries too.
I’ve just had a coffee and, because somehow it’s what you do when aviation is involved, a tomato juice.
Matthew Parris is in decent form today defending FPTP in today's Speccie. He is right. (Government requires decisions between binary choices, so coalition isn't capable of producing a proper government programme).
Despite all evidence to the contrary.
Just the regurgitation of old prejudice.
Indeed. Our current government seems to be struggling to come up with a coherent programme despite having a whacking great majority. Its predecessor was also rubbish at doing the same thing.
So who do we think might be able to form a government in France, that’s acceptable to both Parliament and Macron, or are we heading for Parliamentary elections in the new year?
Somewhat embarrassing for Macron not to have a PM for his big party at Notre Dame this weekend, with 50 heads of State and Government expected to attend.
I suspect it will be a moderate Socialist as the leftwing block plus Macron's has a clear majority in the Assembly
He can only really go to the left now because the LR/RN outreach hasn’t worked.
It will be easier said than done getting a moderate leftist to be backed by LFI though. But I suspect like you they’ll hold their nose and tolerate it, at least until July.
This all comes with a massive disclaimer that I am far from an expert on French politics. In fact I think it’s one a lot of us find quite difficult, which is odd, them being our close neighbour. It’s that Gallic and Napoleonic sensibility that I think feels a little removed and opaque from our experience.
The Socialist PM Macron has to appoint now will almost certainly have to raise taxes to fund the extra spending Melenchon will demand for his support.
That means Barnier's LRs will join the RN in opposing the new government but it should still win a confidence vote as the left block plus Macron's block combined have a majority
That's a fair evaluation, but anyone would have to do it imo.
France is currently running a Government deficit of 6%+ of GDP, compared to ~4% in the UK.
Barnier wanted to cut spending more than raise taxes, Melenchon will insist taxes rise and spending is not cut
Even in Ireland this time where they use the only remotely fair system STV Fine Gael managed to lose a seat on the last count even though they had two candidates still in the run with way more votes together than the candidate who was elected. They were too close in numbers to be voted out. I must admit I thought that was not possible, so I learnt something.
Also for STV to produce PR you need large constituencies with at least ten members. 3, 4 or 5 member constituencies still produce a carve up, again vide Ireland.
What you describe in the first of these paragraphs is a feature of STV, not a bug. The voters control whether their vote transfers between candidates for the same party. This is better than closed-list PR. If the voter likes one of the candidates for Fine Gael, but not the other, then they can transfer their vote to a different candidate for a different party. That's a win for the voters and a blow to central party control.
As to your second paragraph there are other factors to consider other than proportionality, but STV with 3-member constituencies will be a lot more proportional than FPTP, and still allows small parties to gain representation with relatively modest local concentrations of support.
In Ireland they prioritise attempting to keep to County boundaries over consistency in constituency size. This creates the potential for all sorts of shenanigans (e.g. it would be advantageous for a party to have larger constituencies where their support is low and smaller constituencies where their support is high), but this doesn't really happen because the motivation is almost totally to keep to County boundaries. So you have Kerry and Mayo as five-seaters, but Tipperary recently split into two three-seaters and rural Cork west of the city split into two three-seaters.
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
Yes, to widen the point it's often very easy to find waffle around political events and numbers (such as this speech is) but awkward to locate actual numbers. US election results are a case in point.
Matthew Parris is in decent form today defending FPTP in today's Speccie. He is right. (Government requires decisions between binary choices, so coalition isn't capable of producing a proper government programme).
Despite all evidence to the contrary.
Just the regurgitation of old prejudice.
Indeed. Our current government seems to be struggling to come up with a coherent programme despite having a whacking great majority. Its predecessor was also rubbish at doing the same thing.
There’s one cabinet minister who has a very clear programme for government and has been executing it with enthusiasm from day 1.
Always impressed by how many people are drinking alcohol at the airport at 10am.
It's shocking isn't it. We are a nation of alkies.
There are of course a lot of people who drink far too much at airports before boarding a plane, which I don’t dispute and seems to have become a real problem.
I think (purely anecdotally) there’s a lot of people who have 1-2 drinks in an airport though because they don’t really like flying, and it’s a bit of a mood settler.
I tend to have a couple for that reason, unless I'm driving at the other end (which, is fairly frequently, because Mrs Anabob refuses to drive on the continent)
What Joe Bloggs (just normal men) are known as in seven different languages:
7. Joe Little Carrot (Slovak) 6. Otto Normalconsumer (German) 5. Wang Number Five (Mandarin) 4. Average Svensson (Swedish) 3. Name Nameson (Danish) 2. Mid-range Vasya (Russian) 1. Statistical Kowalski (Polish)
Over the last five years, the budget has increased by nearly a fifth once inflation is taken into account, while the number of staff employed has gone up by almost a quarter. However, the numbers starting treatment has barely changed, only increasing by 3%.
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
In my experience, GPs are powerless/unwilling to do anything. Mrs Anabob wrote to the DVLA but we never heard anything back from them. It seems that the law is such that once someone passes their test they have an inalienable right to drive, even if they are clearly unfit to do so?
It does seem that way but fitness to drive has to be a matter for the GP who really should tell the patient and the DVLA that they are unfit to drive
Mind you as I said earlier, even that may be ignored which is a real worry
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
I think what you're showing is KSIs for car drivers, rather than KSIs caused by car drivers which will be slightly different.
A graph showing KSIs of pedestrians and cyclists by car/ HGV / PSV drivers broken down by age/gender would be interesting if an organisation produced the stats.
Though the graph does indicate risk-taking / competency at the age extremes, but it might be that a lot of 86+ year olds involved in a car accident die
It's fair to draw attention to that detail.
There are more stats and context at the link, including around % of casualties of "driver, passenger, other" in KSI collision involving an elderly car driver, and around age of casualties in such a collision. *
I like this viewpoint, as imo the people needing to be convinced of the need for eyesight tests for elderly drivers are substantially the elderly drivers themselves * , because the debate gets diverted into "what about the boy-racers", "why are they going for US" etc. And stats around "look at what happens to DRIVERS like you" are more direct than "look at what happens to pedestrians" for people who are driving vehicles.
* I will be joining the "elderly" group in around 20 years, though I have been on a 3-yearly medical license since my 30s.
** Example of commentary:
Table 4 shows the proportion of each casualty type for the total KSI casualties from a collision involving at least one older car driver. This shows how the proportion of casualties being the passenger of the car has fallen, and the proportion of the casualty being the driver remained stable, whereas the proportion of other casualties has increased since 2004.
For 2023, older car driver driver casualties accounted for 36%, of all KSI casualties from a collision involving at least one older car driver. By comparison, for collisions involving other aged car drivers, driver casualties accounted for 32% of all KSI casualties in 2023 .
True of course and it can produce results that are even less proportional than FPTP, however that only tends to happen if one side wins very big anyway, so probably isn't as much of an issue. Given a choice I would go for STV as being more proportional and overcomes the issues raised by FPTP proponents. I do however prefer AV to FPTP as being more representative in most cases even if not PR.
AV, a mild variant of FPTP, provides the only change needed, as it simply allows the voter to express their real preference without having to believe their vote is 100% wasted; and thereby gives a proper chance to newcomer parties who are prepared to dig in for the long term. And gives a realistic chance of stable government.
FPTP (as now or with AV) has great merits. As it stands now what needs to happen is a shift of perspective, which is falsified by overpolling.
Our system is not based on national vote %s but on seats. 650 simultaneous local by-elections are individual contests in which you have to win the local seat, not just be part of a national mood. Out of 650 local elections a government is formed. This is exactly as it should be in the UK with our particular constitutional history.
The most important fact about Labour is not the 34% national vote. It was their ability to come first in 411 local elections. The rules are the same for everyone, and it is good for national politics to bend to the local.
I agree with much of that. You comment, however, that AV "gives a realistic chance of stable government". When the number of effective political parties is high, even systems like AV and FPTP are much more likely to produce a hung result. You can't have 5 serious parties competing and avoid coalitions for long.
What Joe Bloggs (just normal men) are known as in seven different languages:
7. Joe Little Carrot (Slovak) 6. Otto Normalconsumer (German) 5. Wang Number Five (Mandarin) 4. Average Svensson (Swedish) 3. Name Nameson (Danish) 2. Mid-range Vasya (Russian) 1. Statistical Kowalski (Polish)
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
11am.
Thanks – appreciate the heads-up.
Out of interest, from where did you source that intel?
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
Missed a bit. This was flagged as a case highlighted by a current campaign for a law change in eyesight tests for elderly drivers - following the consultation by the previous Govt and the current Road Safety Review.
Thanks for that very helpful graph, Matt. It rather confirms what I had thought.
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
I've got a current interest in this as two-and-a-half years ago, when my licence came up for renewal, I was rapidly losing the use of my limbs and consequently thought I was unfit to drive. So I surrendered it. Six months later I had a spinal operation and while things are still not good, they're improving, and just over a year ago I began to feel that maybe I could drive. So I went and had an assessment, at an an approved Driver Assessment Centre, albeit without a car, and was told that, subject to an actual driving assessment, I was mobile enough, and mentally acute (don't laugh) enough to drive. So, in January of this year I applied to DVLA Swansea for my driving licence again, and filled in a long form about my disabilities. In August (yes, August) I received a reply which told me that DVLA would arrange for me to have an in-car assessment at the centre I'd been to previously. And eventually, in October, I was given one. After which I was told that while I was OK on major roads I tended to drive too close to the middle of minor roads and I didn't use my mirror enough. They recommended that before I had a licence again I should have a few lessons. DVLA confirmed receiving all this and said that if their medical advisor agreed they'd send me a sort of provisional licence, a PADL, which would enable an approved instructor to let me drive an automatic car, which is all I want to do. I'm still waiting!
I'm quite certain that I 'failed' not because of my physical problems but mainly because of the habits I've developed over the 65 years since I passed my initial test. However, were I to start again I would be tempted NOT to tell DVLA about my problems in the first place. However I would recommend anyone who has been driving for many years to have a professional assessment. It did make me think!
Very good post, and an illustration of how difficult an issue this can be for older people and their relatives. It’s especially an issue for those who live in more rural areas, and have come to rely on their car because they can’t walk or cycle long distances or carrying loads such as shopping.
The way forward is probably biennial medial assessments though.
Yes; I live in an area with one bus an hour each way. It's two buses to both of the 'local' hospital's too.
Another difficult issue is persuading older people to move when their current location doesn't work for them any more. Ideally they do it earlier than needed so they can put down roots in a new place, with better public transport etc.
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
I would have no qualms.
In the 1990s one of my employees died of sclerosis of the liver after he had been on sick leave for several months. After his death one of my other drivers said "you do know the bottle of Lucozade he carried on the vehicle was really cooking sherry?" I asked why he hadn't told me, the response was that I would have sacked him, which was correct. I suggested whether he would have been comfortable with him driving pissed behind their wife and kids. The same applies to your case. Would you be happy for these older dangerous drivers to share the road with your wife, children and grandchildren?
None of the neighbours are happy about the situation and have been pro active in attempting to deal with it, but if the GP will not stop her driving then how do you think the DVLA will
This is a very real issue with no easy answers
Maybe the Old Bill will be interested. Clearing up a multi car pile up or scraping a cyclist off the front of a Vauxhall Corsa probably generates an awful lot of paperwork.
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
11am.
Thanks – appreciate the heads-up.
Out of interest, from where did you source that intel?
It’s buried in the BBC live page - several items down. Should be much more prominent, I agree.
Good morning everyone, And thanks for the header, @Teasy.
On my feed this morning, an unusual case where a very short-sighted elderly driver, who could only read a number plate at 3m rather than 20m received a short prison sentence for killing someone with their motor vehicle. Normally it would just be a revocation is licence and not prosecuted.
82 year old drove straight into a 70 year old man riding a cycle from behind, whilst going in the same direction.
I think we're going to see some change on these regulations in the next year or two, alongside something on graduated driving licences for young drivers, since under 24 (for men especially) and over ~75 are the ages are where KSI rates skyrocket, as part of the current road safety review.
The male/female disparity at each end of the age spectrum is quite striking. The danger of young male drivers is pretty well know - but over 75 women ?
There are two elderly [89 and 91] women neighbours driving their cars and both have dementia and should not be driving
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
This is sad and very worrying. I must admit I am in a similar position myself with a loved one in my own family (I won't go into more details).
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
As you can see from my post that is the position with the two pensioners I mentioned and the neighbours are so frustrated because the GP will only recommend they do not drive
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
In my experience, GPs are powerless/unwilling to do anything. Mrs Anabob wrote to the DVLA but we never heard anything back from them. It seems that the law is such that once someone passes their test they have an inalienable right to drive, even if they are clearly unfit to do so?
It does seem that way but fitness to drive has to be a matter for the GP who really should tell the patient and the DVLA that they are unfit to drive
Mind you as I said earlier, even that may be ignored which is a real worry
There has to be an element of the social conscience of the driver. It's selfish to drive unfit, for any reason.
One of the most irritating failings of the BBC Politics page (among many) is its seeming inability to ever say when a major political speech is taking place. Does anyone know when Sir Keir is standing up – and where I can watch it (assume BBC/Sky News channel)?
Yes, to widen the point it's often very easy to find waffle around political events and numbers (such as this speech is) but awkward to locate actual numbers. US election results are a case in point.
It's another example among many I could quote of the BBC quietly and slowly falling apart.
It has cut the market data section from its business page. Doesn't matter much in itself, and I can get the info I need easily elsewhere, but it was a cost costing act which no doubt saved little and lost users.
You can see it everywhere in the Beeb. It needs a complete revamp, and an acceptance that it cannot be all things to all people. Time for it to just stick to the knitting, and limit itself only to what it does well.
Comments
FPTP (as now or with AV) has great merits. As it stands now what needs to happen is a shift of perspective, which is falsified by overpolling.
Our system is not based on national vote %s but on seats. 650 simultaneous local by-elections are individual contests in which you have to win the local seat, not just be part of a national mood. Out of 650 local elections a government is formed. This is exactly as it should be in the UK with our particular constitutional history.
The most important fact about Labour is not the 34% national vote. It was their ability to come first in 411 local elections. The rules are the same for everyone, and it is good for national politics to bend to the local.
Which is why he moved production elsewhere - the company was growing and there was not enough space there for the engineering, design etc *and* manufacturing.
One arsehole got what he deserved. He legally harassed a farmer all the time. Lawsuits every year about nothing. When they passed, their son sold the farm. No, not to Dyson. But to a developer. He made sure that the fuckwit going to have *all* the traffic on his lane, for years.
The policy team has modelled high-level costings on the assumption that: 3,000 additional police constables, 4,000 additional PCSOs, and 3,000 additional Specials are recruited evenly over two years. Based on the technical modelling assumptions outlined below, we anticipate costs to be between £220-260m in 2024-25, and £415m-£475m in 2025-26. These costs are not exhaustive, other variables such as allowances and downstream costs have not been included for reasons explained below, and the actual costs to recruit these officers will vary depending on each force’s individual circumstances.
In addition to the policy assumptions above, we have assumed:
• The policy commences on 1st April 2024
• There are no fiscal costs from redeploying 3,000 existing police officers to neighbourhood teams. This is an assumption that would need to be tested with operational partners and is subject to decisions on the design and
deployment of neighbourhood teams.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6647144eb7249a4c6e9d36be/20240221_Opposition_Costing_-_13000_PCSOs.pdf
It astonishes me that I continue to possess the same full driving licence that I had sixty years ago when I passed my test. Intuitively I feel sure I am not as good a driver as I was thirty years ago and a retest would be entirely appropriate. I hope we are moving in the direction of repeat tests, and certainly for the elderly. The case for them is obvious. We shouldn't wait for someone to have a telling accident, nor should we rely on the driver's common sense.
Such testing would have saved me the awkward situation where I had to tell my eighty year old brother that he shouldn't be driving. He stubbornly refused until the doctor told him the same. It's a miracle he never injured someone.
All the neighbours are concerned as they both live alone with absent families and in one case carer's call 3 times a day
I have spoken to the son of one of the neighbours twice on his occasional visits to his mother and he agrees that she should not be driving but her doctor has not told her she must not drive but would prefer if she didn't
I do not know how you can enforce a driving ban on those who simply refuse to consider it but something is urgently needed , probably by stricter enforcement by the GPs
I have my eyes tested every year and was told my eyesight is good for my age and I have no reasons not to drive other than to wear my glasses to drive
I informed the DVLA of this, together with my pacemaker, and my aneurysm which is not considered a problem as it is small and reviewed annually, additionally my insurers are also aware of my medical conditions
Elderly drivers should have annual health checks and of course over 70s have to renew their licence every 3 years
My wife is awaiting cataracts operation on the Wales NHS [ waiting list upto 18 months] and her driving licence has been suspended by the DVLA pending the operation but then she is not keen to drive anyway so not too much of an issue
It will be easier said than done getting a moderate leftist to be backed by LFI though. But I suspect like you they’ll hold their nose and tolerate it, at least until July.
This all comes with a massive disclaimer that I am far from an expert on French politics. In fact I think it’s one a lot of us find quite difficult, which is odd, them being our close neighbour. It’s that Gallic and Napoleonic sensibility that I think feels a little removed and opaque from our experience.
FPTP has serrved us well for a very long time, but its manifest flaws are no longer acceptable and it is high time we tried something else.
I expect that Optometrists will supply a certificate say every 2 or 3 years, which can be done with a normal eye test, which would either be supplied direct to the DVLA so police can check via the radio, or be producible on demand.
Given that there are 1.65 million drivers over 80, and another 4.8 million between 70 and 80, I would expect eyesight it to start at 2 or 3-yearly checks at 80+, and then roll back to 75+. So we would end up on current numbers of around 3.5 million drivers needing to do it.
The 3-yearly renewal infrastructure is in place for 70+, as that is required already, so if it was rolled into driving licenses from 70 there's little extra overhead for the DVLA. It could probably be phased in quite quickly.
I'd term it a quick win.
I admit I have no idea how many extra office spaces, showers etc one needs for 10,000 extra neighbourhood officers - who spend much of their time on the beat. It terms of extra bodies in the police it is something like 4-5%, give or take.
I told my brother I was writing, and why. Response from the DoT was however pretty tepid.
Edit: Anyway, to lighten the tone I can tell you about an elderly neighbour who was a very bad driver and knew it. He was however happy enough to drive as long as he only had to make left turns. He skilfully worked out all the local routes he needed could be reached by using left turns only. Some of the journeys took him ages but it didn't matter....and in the end, nobody got hurt.
May well look at a chordless Numatic.
You only have to go to the local tip to see that Dysons are 99% marketing.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00773331/persons-with-significant-control
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jul/24/how-henry-vacuum-cleaner-became-accidental-design-icon
Then you have the kit. Which isn’t cheap and wears out.
Then you have vehicles. Even if they are pavement pounding (which doesn’t really work), they need to get to and from their beat. Also there needs to be a ratio of officers available per officer on the beat for support. With vehicles.
So suddenly you need bigger police stations, vehicle yards, more maintenance.
If it was that cheap and simple, it would have been done long ago.
Statistical errors are leaving policymakers in the dark
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/05/britains-politicians-literally-dont-know-what-theyre-doing/ (£££)
All economic statistics are rubbish.
eg https://www.local.gov.uk/about/campaigns/general-election-hub/conservative-party-manifesto
What's the point of PCCs? Indeed !
Personally I'd deploy the Political Crime Commissioners (in the case of our last one in Notts, literally - she got herself banned from driving in a very few months) to the unemployment office, and have an extra ~200 PCSOs instead from just the 2x salary costs, and however many more I could get for the overheads etc.
I suspect there is some sort of dust and particle ingress into the motor.
My concern is that the cost of repair, although probably less than the cost of new, would be quite expensive so it is better to buy new.
Must be so tough for them,
That means Barnier's LRs will join the RN in opposing the new government but it should still win a confidence vote as the left block plus Macron's block combined have a majority
Is there any way I can get the authorities to stop an elderly person driving who clearly should not be on the roads? They are a palpably a danger to themselves and others (they are also poorly sighted and in ill mental health). The doctors seem uninterested/powerless.
Any advice gratefully received.
Edited: I see the figure is £400 million. Still seems unlikely.
France is currently running a Government deficit of 6%+ of GDP, compared to ~4% in the UK.
IIRC they don't save very much, because they are part time. So they do a fraction of the hours of a regular officer, and while the salary are reduced, they aren't reduced *that* much.
Best joke all morning. The Process State is alive and very well in the Police Service.
They had a lot of local information including mug shots of various individuals
We had a one hour beat to follow and return, and if we were late the Chief Inspector would drive our beat seeking us out - no radios then
How times have changed
• The average national base salary for a PCSO in 2023-24 is £28,409. Inclusive of pension and employer NICs the average salary cost is £35,051 (average salary cost inc. pension and employer NICs used to determine non-pay costs).
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6647144eb7249a4c6e9d36be/20240221_Opposition_Costing_-_13000_PCSOs.pdf
So I went and had an assessment, at an an approved Driver Assessment Centre, albeit without a car, and was told that, subject to an actual driving assessment, I was mobile enough, and mentally acute (don't laugh) enough to drive.
So, in January of this year I applied to DVLA Swansea for my driving licence again, and filled in a long form about my disabilities. In August (yes, August) I received a reply which told me that DVLA would arrange for me to have an in-car assessment at the centre I'd been to previously. And eventually, in October, I was given one. After which I was told that while I was OK on major roads I tended to drive too close to the middle of minor roads and I didn't use my mirror enough. They recommended that before I had a licence again I should have a few lessons.
DVLA confirmed receiving all this and said that if their medical advisor agreed they'd send me a sort of provisional licence, a PADL, which would enable an approved instructor to let me drive an automatic car, which is all I want to do.
I'm still waiting!
I'm quite certain that I 'failed' not because of my physical problems but mainly because of the habits I've developed over the 65 years since I passed my initial test. However, were I to start again I would be tempted NOT to tell DVLA about my problems in the first place. However I would recommend anyone who has been driving for many years to have a professional assessment. It did make me think!
+2 Old School points to anyone who gets the reference.
Dyson warranty is either 5 years or 2 years but I'd be looking at them to repair or replace either way.
And if your cordless one hasn't lasted (I assume battery) why go for another cordless ?
A vacuum cleaner sucks up dust in roughly the same way as 100 years ago, they should last 10 years (at least) the 'innovative' features are mainly worthless and add superflous complexity and failure points.
Bit I'm dipping out now, as it is a bit logic-choppy.
What we have hear is common or garden journos not getting the real information, with their heads up the rear ends, snorting the shit they are shovelling
Have a good late morning, all !
Maybe @Foxy would know more but it must be the GP who tells the patient and the DVLA to withdraw the licence
However, even that may not be effective if the pensioner drives anyway
It would be interesting what the insurer would think in the event of an accident when the GP recommendation is not to drive but not mandated
IANAL but perhaps one or two of those here would like to comment on how they would question in court a GP subsequently to a fatal accident where the driver had been told by their GP that they 'would prefer' them not to drive!
For Big G's neighbours information, there's a Driving Assessment centre at Glan Clwyd Hospital.
The way forward is probably biennial medial assessments though.
In the 1990s one of my employees died of sclerosis of the liver after he had been on sick leave for several months. After his death one of my other drivers said "you do know the bottle of Lucozade he carried on the vehicle was really cooking sherry?" I asked why he hadn't told me, the response was that I would have sacked him, which was correct. I suggested whether he would have been comfortable with him driving pissed behind their wife and kids. The same applies to your case. Would you be happy for these older dangerous drivers to share the road with your wife, children and grandchildren?
Over the last five years, the budget has increased by nearly a fifth once inflation is taken into account, while the number of staff employed has gone up by almost a quarter. However, the numbers starting treatment has barely changed, only increasing by 3%.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/crmn2jve0jpt
Just the regurgitation of old prejudice.
I think (purely anecdotally) there’s a lot of people who have 1-2 drinks in an airport though because they don’t really like flying, and it’s a bit of a mood settler.
This is a very real issue with no easy answers
I’ve just had a coffee and, because somehow it’s what you do when aviation is involved, a tomato juice.
As to your second paragraph there are other factors to consider other than proportionality, but STV with 3-member constituencies will be a lot more proportional than FPTP, and still allows small parties to gain representation with relatively modest local concentrations of support.
In Ireland they prioritise attempting to keep to County boundaries over consistency in constituency size. This creates the potential for all sorts of shenanigans (e.g. it would be advantageous for a party to have larger constituencies where their support is low and smaller constituencies where their support is high), but this doesn't really happen because the motivation is almost totally to keep to County boundaries. So you have Kerry and Mayo as five-seaters, but Tipperary recently split into two three-seaters and rural Cork west of the city split into two three-seaters.
Ed Miliband.
Reposted by
Marie Le Conte
Adam Sharp
@adamcsharp.bsky.social
What Joe Bloggs (just normal men) are known as in seven different languages:
7. Joe Little Carrot (Slovak)
6. Otto Normalconsumer (German)
5. Wang Number Five (Mandarin)
4. Average Svensson (Swedish)
3. Name Nameson (Danish)
2. Mid-range Vasya (Russian)
1. Statistical Kowalski (Polish)
https://bsky.app/profile/adamcsharp.bsky.social/post/3lcikrmz4kk2r
Mind you as I said earlier, even that may be ignored which is a real worry
There are more stats and context at the link, including around % of casualties of "driver, passenger, other" in KSI collision involving an elderly car driver, and around age of casualties in such a collision. *
I like this viewpoint, as imo the people needing to be convinced of the need for eyesight tests for elderly drivers are substantially the elderly drivers themselves * , because the debate gets diverted into "what about the boy-racers", "why are they going for US" etc. And stats around "look at what happens to DRIVERS like you" are more direct than "look at what happens to pedestrians" for people who are driving vehicles.
* I will be joining the "elderly" group in around 20 years, though I have been on a 3-yearly medical license since my 30s.
** Example of commentary:
Table 4 shows the proportion of each casualty type for the total KSI casualties from a collision involving at least one older car driver. This shows how the proportion of casualties being the passenger of the car has fallen, and the proportion of the casualty being the driver remained stable, whereas the proportion of other casualties has increased since 2004.
For 2023, older car driver driver casualties accounted for 36%, of all KSI casualties from a collision involving at least one older car driver. By comparison, for collisions involving other aged car drivers, driver casualties accounted for 32% of all KSI casualties in 2023 .
Out of interest, from where did you source that intel?
It has cut the market data section from its business page. Doesn't matter much in itself, and I can get the info I need easily elsewhere, but it was a cost costing act which no doubt saved little and lost users.
You can see it everywhere in the Beeb. It needs a complete revamp, and an acceptance that it cannot be all things to all people. Time for it to just stick to the knitting, and limit itself only to what it does well.