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A popular government policy – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited December 17 in General
A popular government policy – politicalbetting.com

67% of Britons think there should be a cap on how much individuals or companies can donate to parties, a policy the government is reportedly consideringYes, there should: 67%No, there should not: 11%https://t.co/D0swwdYl9P pic.twitter.com/tL7UgEbAdd

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Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Morning all,

    I see nuclear power plants due to close have been given another two or three years of life.

    I am surprised.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/04/shutdown-of-ageing-nuclear-plants-delayed-as-net-zero-fears/
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    Yes, I’m sure there will be some wriggle that unions are a lot of individuals but somehow corporations aren’t.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    boulay said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    Yes, I’m sure there will be some wriggle that unions are a lot of individuals but somehow corporations aren’t.
    My suggestion is £1k limit per person or organisation. Organisations could also collect for members or employees but beyond the £1k limit it would need to come from the member or employee themself (and their own limit) and not the organisation.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554
    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    Obvious drawbacks are:-

    1) state funding of political parties would be needed to make up the difference
    2) new parties would never get off the ground, so no Reform, no Ukip, no Brexit

    Obviously, some drawbacks are more nuanced than others.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    edited December 4
    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    I have been a strong advocate of ‘no representation without taxation’ for years.

    Give double votes to additional rate tax payers.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    Everyone should get a vote but after the initial vote you get an extra one for each £1k of tax you pay (being an average over the life of a Parliament). We need more tax somehow, anyhow really.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    I have been a strong advocate of ‘no representation without taxation’ for years.

    Give double votes to additional rate tax payers.
    Defer their votes if they put money into pensions or ISAs instead of paying tax?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    Everyone should get a vote but after the initial vote you get an extra one for each £1k of tax you pay (being an average over the life of a Parliament). We need more tax somehow, anyhow really.
    Some years ago, The Economist did a physiological survey. To test an idea. The idea was making income tax a lottery. If you won, no tax for a year. The more you paid as a percentage of income, above a minimum, the more chance of winning.

    IIRC, they estimated some interesting levels of increased tax take.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    My own idea is to go further, Allow union members to *choose* which party they want their individual donation to go to; the fund goes in proportion to the people who chose a particular party. This would have a number of advantages: it would cause parties other than Labour to try and be friendly to unions and union members; it would reflect the union's constituency better (they are not all Labour voters...); and it might make some unions appeal to people who are not Labour through and through.

    Of course, it would be anathema to many trade unionists, so I doubt it would happen. But it should. I reckon it would massively advantage Labour at first anyway.
    You could not imagine the likes of the UNITE leadership being happy with such an outcome. They would fight it tooth and nail.

    But what you propose here is a good idea and perfectly reasonable.

    Trades Union Members support a broad range of Parties as you say, they certainly don't reflect the narrow political outlook of the Union leadership whatever wing of the Labour movement they are on.

    If they pay a polticial levy why shouldn't it go to the Party of their choice be it Reform, the Greens or whoever.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    I think the most popular, truthful answer would be: "I want other people to pay for political parties, not me, but no money from people/organisations I don't like, and the money should favour parties I do like."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    DONALD TRUMP AND RON DESANTIS have personally discussed the possibility of the Florida governor becoming the next secretary of defense amid concerns that sexual assault allegations could engulf the president-elect’s current nominee for the post, Pete Hegseth.

    Bulwark email
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    May well be a case for capping the amount that can be donated to political parties.

    However elections are not always decided by who spent most, otherwise Harris would have beaten Trump
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    There must be a critical mass at which point it becomes "safe" to join political parties and not find yourself surrounded by ideologues, bores and nutters. I like to imagine that membership of Labour or Conservatives back in the 50s or 60s, with memberships in the millions, might have been enjoyable even.
  • DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    Everyone should get a vote but after the initial vote you get an extra one for each £1k of tax you pay (being an average over the life of a Parliament). We need more tax somehow, anyhow really.
    No, the value of your vote should be proportional to the size of the National Debt when you were first eligible to vote.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442

    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    I think the most popular, truthful answer would be: "I want other people to pay for political parties, not me, but no money from people/organisations I don't like, and the money should favour parties I do like."
    So the same as everything else, then.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    edited December 4

    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    I think the most popular, truthful answer would be: "I want other people to pay for political parties, not me, but no money from people/organisations I don't like, and the money should favour parties I do like."
    What if you don't like any of the parties?

    Personally I think it weird to believe in the idea of democracy based on one person one vote, and then let a handful of billionaires dominate politics. May as well just have a dictatorship then.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    edited December 4
    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    DONALD TRUMP AND RON DESANTIS have personally discussed the possibility of the Florida governor becoming the next secretary of defense amid concerns that sexual assault allegations could engulf the president-elect’s current nominee for the post, Pete Hegseth.

    Bulwark email

    Surely not the same RDS that Trump proclaimed TOO WEAK to even debate him?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442
    Taz said:

    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.

    Yes, and trolling is fun, but reducing the ability of rich blokes to buy political power probably isn't in his interests.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    On the proposal.

    The government will implement a limit. And exempt trade unions.

    Anyone want to join the ground floor of The National Union of Hedge Fund Owners & Boiler Makers?

    First one hundred member get a gold share. Plus discounts on our range of picket line apparel by Prada.

    The brassier drums will be hand made from stainless steel drums, by the finest steelpan artisans of Kingston.

    Beer will be a custom line created specially for us in the Czech Republic. Sandwiches will be hand prepared, on site, by former staff of Serendipity 3.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554
    edited December 4
    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Morning all,

    I see nuclear power plants due to close have been given another two or three years of life.

    I am surprised.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/04/shutdown-of-ageing-nuclear-plants-delayed-as-net-zero-fears/

    I'm not.
    Having said that, our nuclear fleet is less suitable for life extension than that of (say) Germany, who should definitely be doing this.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    My own idea is to go further, Allow union members to *choose* which party they want their individual donation to go to; the fund goes in proportion to the people who chose a particular party. This would have a number of advantages: it would cause parties other than Labour to try and be friendly to unions and union members; it would reflect the union's constituency better (they are not all Labour voters...); and it might make some unions appeal to people who are not Labour through and through.

    Of course, it would be anathema to many trade unionists, so I doubt it would happen. But it should. I reckon it would massively advantage Labour at first anyway.
    Eminently sensible idea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    With vaccination it ought not to be a choice.
    In any event, we should probably wait for the first cases and see who is most vulnerable. The 1918 one disproportionately killed the youthful, I think ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Nigelb said:

    Morning all,

    I see nuclear power plants due to close have been given another two or three years of life.

    I am surprised.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/04/shutdown-of-ageing-nuclear-plants-delayed-as-net-zero-fears/

    I'm not.
    Having said that, our nuclear fleet is less suitable for life extension than that of (say) Germany, who should definitely be doing this.
    I was being sarky.

    This has been on the cards for ages if they can sort the safety certificates. We are headed to blackouts otherwise.

    Nice one Cleggy.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857

    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    I think the most popular, truthful answer would be: "I want other people to pay for political parties, not me, but no money from people/organisations I don't like, and the money should favour parties I do like."
    Probably about right. I suspect the only possible, though obviously inadequate, answer in fact is to have very few limits, if any, on source or amount but very tough rules on disclosure to the public of where the money is coming from.

    The best answer of course always has been the commitment and loyalty of a mass membership of ordinary people - the model which basically has kept religious institutions going for quite a long time and is now under great pressure.

    However there are few social/sociological reasons for joining a political party and - not often noticed - few political reasons. All parties outside the eccentric are social democrat - regulated private enterprise and a massive state. The difference lies in competence, which is important but most of us leave that to others on dark evenings.

    It is no surprise that the two parties attracting public interest in recent years have been social democrat + added USP attraction parties - the SNP and Reform.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    Everyone should get a vote but after the initial vote you get an extra one for each £1k of tax you pay (being an average over the life of a Parliament). We need more tax somehow, anyhow really.
    No, the value of your vote should be proportional to the size of the National Debt when you were first eligible to vote.
    Your vote should be based on your weight. The heavier you are the less your vote counts.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114

    DONALD TRUMP AND RON DESANTIS have personally discussed the possibility of the Florida governor becoming the next secretary of defense amid concerns that sexual assault allegations could engulf the president-elect’s current nominee for the post, Pete Hegseth.

    Bulwark email

    Surely not the same RDS that Trump proclaimed TOO WEAK to even debate him?
    If he kisses the ring sufficiently and does the Trump stupid dance to order then...

    And there's the little matter of Trump's daughter wanting to be shoehorned into a senate place apparently.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    On the proposal.

    The government will implement a limit. And exempt trade unions.

    Anyone want to join the ground floor of The National Union of Hedge Fund Owners & Boiler Makers?

    First one hundred member get a gold share. Plus discounts on our range of picket line apparel by Prada.

    The brassier drums will be hand made from stainless steel drums, by the finest steelpan artisans of Kingston.

    Beer will be a custom line created specially for us in the Czech Republic. Sandwiches will be hand prepared, on site, by former staff of Serendipity 3.

    A potentially bigger difficulty might be the funding of political activity, as opposed to parties ?
    For example, it would be quite easy for Musk to give 100m to set up a new "Institute" to advocate for policy positions, even were the cap in place.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394

    DONALD TRUMP AND RON DESANTIS have personally discussed the possibility of the Florida governor becoming the next secretary of defense amid concerns that sexual assault allegations could engulf the president-elect’s current nominee for the post, Pete Hegseth.

    Bulwark email

    Surely not the same RDS that Trump proclaimed TOO WEAK to even debate him?
    Yes but hardly the point since RDS would still be subordinate to Trump. The interesting thing is how many of Trump's appointments are straight out of Florida.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    Yes. But there are no votes in letting grannie die. If the threat is real I doubt if 5 million is enough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    Nice example of both-sides-ism from the BBC reporting on Korea, as usual amplifying the voice of the right wing.

    ...Marina Kang, 37, says she had gone to bed early and missed the news completely.
    "But this morning I woke up to so many messages from my friends and family, and all this news to catch up on. It was such a shock! I’m very relieved it wrapped up really quickly," she says in the main square of Seoul.
    But one citizen expresses disappointment.
    “Personally I wanted to see the martial law succeed,” says Lee Jae-whan, 45. He wants Yoon to "normalise the National Assembly and get rid of the opposition members who are cancerous to this society".
    "Putting in place martial law was probably the last card that Yoon had, so I’m disappointed it didn’t happen."..

    ...Not everyone is angry about Yoon's actions - as this Seoul resident we spoke to earlier shows.

    Some politicians are also supporting the president. Hwang Kyo-ahn, a former South Korean PM who is one of Yoon's high-profile supporters, says he shouldn't be impeached.
    He also backs the reasoning Yoon gave for martial law, and calls for the arrest of the National Assembly speaker who urged lawmakers to gather and block Yoon's decision.
    Busan city councilman Park Jong-cheol also says he "actively supports and sympathises" with the declaration of martial law, and the mayor of Daegu, Hong Joon-pyo, says on Facebook he disagrees with impeachment.


    This in the context of an electorate where only about 20% support Yoon.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    I am not old but am certainly older. I would not be in a priority group if it was on the basis of the last pandemic.

    But my answer to your last question is a clear no. Firstly because, counter to what people claim, we did not 'ruin it for the young' last time. It is a false basis for the discussion. And secondly because you cannot treat the elderly either as a single uniform group or in isolation. Try telling most teenagers that Granny has to die because you want to 'protect the future' and they will most likely come round and firebomb your offices.

    Moreover such a policy is based on the false assumptiuon that the next pandemic acts in the same way as the last with regard to age risk. So you follow a light touch policy on the basis that only (or mostly) the most vulnerable will suffer and it turns out it is a 1918 Spanish flu scenario where the most at risk were the young and apprently healthy. Whilst not perfect last time, the policies we enacted were not just to protect the old but to protect the young as well. We were just lucky - if that is the right term - that it was mostly the old and weak who were most susceptible.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    Nigelb said:

    On the proposal.

    The government will implement a limit. And exempt trade unions.

    Anyone want to join the ground floor of The National Union of Hedge Fund Owners & Boiler Makers?

    First one hundred member get a gold share. Plus discounts on our range of picket line apparel by Prada.

    The brassier drums will be hand made from stainless steel drums, by the finest steelpan artisans of Kingston.

    Beer will be a custom line created specially for us in the Czech Republic. Sandwiches will be hand prepared, on site, by former staff of Serendipity 3.

    A potentially bigger difficulty might be the funding of political activity, as opposed to parties ?
    For example, it would be quite easy for Musk to give 100m to set up a new "Institute" to advocate for policy positions, even were the cap in place.
    I think it would be unstoppable, and the sector already both more important and more interesting than political parties. If you want sense about stuff you turn to RUSI, Chatham House, IFS, Resolution Foundation, Rowntree, Reform - the institute not the party - etc. You don't even think about turning to the parties, or to the government website.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Taz said:

    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.

    He's just done the usual of spreading more shit.
    I wouldn't call that playing a blinder.

    Capricious mega-billionaires throwing their weight around in the political arena isn't new, but it's not irrelevant; it's a hard problem. And it deserves thinking about.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    Society isn’t currently doing a great job of protecting the young from the economic headwinds of debt and high costs of living, why would it be more likely in the face of a new pandemic? If the aging kakocrats who rule us decide that their freedom and right to self indulgence should be legitimised I suppose the youngsters might get a look in.

    Imagine Stanley Johnson squirting out progeny and flying off to his holiday homes - forever.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    In the case of a number of diseases, the vulnerable are orders of magnitude more vulnerable to the disease.

    So if you have a limited amount of a vaccine, you save many, many more QALYS, if you protect the vulnerable first.
  • Taz said:

    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.

    Yes, and trolling is fun, but reducing the ability of rich blokes to buy political power probably isn't in his interests.
    Why not? I would have thought reducing the ability of political parties to counter the lies about them being pumped put on TwiXter would be very much in his interest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    My own idea is to go further, Allow union members to *choose* which party they want their individual donation to go to; the fund goes in proportion to the people who chose a particular party. This would have a number of advantages: it would cause parties other than Labour to try and be friendly to unions and union members; it would reflect the union's constituency better (they are not all Labour voters...); and it might make some unions appeal to people who are not Labour through and through.

    Of course, it would be anathema to many trade unionists, so I doubt it would happen. But it should. I reckon it would massively advantage Labour at first anyway.
    That's a reasonable proposition.
    If Starmer wants to limit donations from corporates or the rich, he should do this as well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    I think the most popular, truthful answer would be: "I want other people to pay for political parties, not me, but no money from people/organisations I don't like, and the money should favour parties I do like."
    Not for me. I think funding should be massively limited for all parties, from all sources. I would like to see some variation of the Election Spending Limits extended to all party activities all the time.

    Same goes for maximum donatinos. Set them at, say, £1000 per year per individual and £2000 per year per donor organisation. That of course includes Trade Unions as well as all private entities. Also a total blanket ban on all donations from non-UK nationals and from UK nationals who are living permanently outside the UK.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Taz said:

    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.

    Yes, and trolling is fun, but reducing the ability of rich blokes to buy political power probably isn't in his interests.
    He could just set up the "Elon Musk thinktank" and issue numerous reports and lobby that way.

    Donations to parties is not the only way to influence govt.

    Just look at Esther Rantzen and the Assisted Dying bill.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807
    ...
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.

    He's just done the usual of spreading more shit.
    I wouldn't call that playing a blinder.

    Capricious mega-billionaires throwing their weight around in the political arena isn't new, but it's not irrelevant; it's a hard problem. And it deserves thinking about.
    We know what Musk's politics are, and he's been open about who and what he is looking at funding. That's a good deal less insidious than the kind of influence that leads to gushing Tweets about (and no doubt extremely lucrative infrastructure contracts for) Blackrock from our Government.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,495

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Especially when cash is coming from tax havens and fronts
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554

    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    I am not old but am certainly older. I would not be in a priority group if it was on the basis of the last pandemic.

    But my answer to your last question is a clear no. Firstly because, counter to what people claim, we did not 'ruin it for the young' last time. It is a false basis for the discussion. And secondly because you cannot treat the elderly either as a single uniform group or in isolation. Try telling most teenagers that Granny has to die because you want to 'protect the future' and they will most likely come round and firebomb your offices.

    Moreover such a policy is based on the false assumptiuon that the next pandemic acts in the same way as the last with regard to age risk. So you follow a light touch policy on the basis that only (or mostly) the most vulnerable will suffer and it turns out it is a 1918 Spanish flu scenario where the most at risk were the young and apprently healthy. Whilst not perfect last time, the policies we enacted were not just to protect the old but to protect the young as well. We were just lucky - if that is the right term - that it was mostly the old and weak who were most susceptible.
    Thanks - my point was clumsy and broad brush but the news story did make me wonder a lot about the benefits so far of the Covid Inquiry and how we will react as a society and politically to the next pandemic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    malcolmg said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Especially when cash is coming from tax havens and fronts
    If you remove the exemptions for overseas money from Northern Ireland, the Shinners will threaten the Peace Process.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,495
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    The question is not sufficiently clear. 'Corporate entities' is capable of more than one meaning.

    The answers are not much use, except for polemic, unless the public is asked how political parties should be funded.

    SFAICS the public is hostile to: public/taxpayer funding; large single donations; joining a party themselves in massive numbers and funding parties by individual small scale subscription.

    So the answer really matters.

    I think the most popular, truthful answer would be: "I want other people to pay for political parties, not me, but no money from people/organisations I don't like, and the money should favour parties I do like."
    Probably about right. I suspect the only possible, though obviously inadequate, answer in fact is to have very few limits, if any, on source or amount but very tough rules on disclosure to the public of where the money is coming from.

    The best answer of course always has been the commitment and loyalty of a mass membership of ordinary people - the model which basically has kept religious institutions going for quite a long time and is now under great pressure.

    However there are few social/sociological reasons for joining a political party and - not often noticed - few political reasons. All parties outside the eccentric are social democrat - regulated private enterprise and a massive state. The difference lies in competence, which is important but most of us leave that to others on dark evenings.

    It is no surprise that the two parties attracting public interest in recent years have been social democrat + added USP attraction parties - the SNP and Reform.
    Anyone donating to political parties should be banned from getting baubles, government contracts etc for a minimum 20 year period. It is just a front for bribing clowns.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    I am not old but am certainly older. I would not be in a priority group if it was on the basis of the last pandemic.

    But my answer to your last question is a clear no. Firstly because, counter to what people claim, we did not 'ruin it for the young' last time. It is a false basis for the discussion. And secondly because you cannot treat the elderly either as a single uniform group or in isolation. Try telling most teenagers that Granny has to die because you want to 'protect the future' and they will most likely come round and firebomb your offices.

    Moreover such a policy is based on the false assumptiuon that the next pandemic acts in the same way as the last with regard to age risk. So you follow a light touch policy on the basis that only (or mostly) the most vulnerable will suffer and it turns out it is a 1918 Spanish flu scenario where the most at risk were the young and apprently healthy. Whilst not perfect last time, the policies we enacted were not just to protect the old but to protect the young as well. We were just lucky - if that is the right term - that it was mostly the old and weak who were most susceptible.
    Thanks - my point was clumsy and broad brush but the news story did make me wonder a lot about the benefits so far of the Covid Inquiry and how we will react as a society and politically to the next pandemic.
    It is a worthy topic of discussion and we should have these discussions more as another pandemic is inevitable at some point. As others have said though, we always seem to fall into the same trap of fighting the last war rather than planning properly for the next.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    How much money does a political party need to operate? I'd argue there should be a limit to spending as well, just as there is at election time.

    So we can say if they stand in (say) 600 of the 650 constituencies, then they must be able to raise the election spending limit (currently £54,010 ?) times the number of constituencies, as at present. If there are by-elections, the spending cap increases by £54,010 if they stand a candidate.

    But a political party is not just about MPs and elections; there are a whole host of other centralised jobs that need doing. But how much should be budgeted for that? Again, I'd argue that should be an amount that scales on how many constituencies a party stood in at the last GE. To help smaller parties, this should be a minimum of (say) 20. So they can still raise some funds.

    So the parties can raise money up to that total value, but no more. Having a maximum limit would IMO limit the ability for corruption in the system.

    (This is a broad outline only)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    .
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the proposal.

    The government will implement a limit. And exempt trade unions.

    Anyone want to join the ground floor of The National Union of Hedge Fund Owners & Boiler Makers?

    First one hundred member get a gold share. Plus discounts on our range of picket line apparel by Prada.

    The brassier drums will be hand made from stainless steel drums, by the finest steelpan artisans of Kingston.

    Beer will be a custom line created specially for us in the Czech Republic. Sandwiches will be hand prepared, on site, by former staff of Serendipity 3.

    A potentially bigger difficulty might be the funding of political activity, as opposed to parties ?
    For example, it would be quite easy for Musk to give 100m to set up a new "Institute" to advocate for policy positions, even were the cap in place.
    I think it would be unstoppable, and the sector already both more important and more interesting than political parties. If you want sense about stuff you turn to RUSI, Chatham House, IFS, Resolution Foundation, Rowntree, Reform - the institute not the party - etc. You don't even think about turning to the parties, or to the government website.
    Such institutes do very valuable work - even on occasion, Blair's.

    My concern is more that the uber rich get to dominate the discourse by sheer weight of money. The marketplace of ideas is no longer a real marketplace, if one voice has 20x the money of the rest.
    That is a bigger risk than it has even been.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,495
    algarkirk said:

    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    Yes. But there are no votes in letting grannie die. If the threat is real I doubt if 5 million is enough.
    Plus the bollox that we stuffed the young etc to save old, northeners etc is worse than pathetic. What special kind of arsehole is the poster to come up with sucjh a warped view of what happened.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    How much money does a political party need to operate? I'd argue there should be a limit to spending as well, just as there is at election time.

    So we can say if they stand in (say) 600 of the 650 constituencies, then they must be able to raise the election spending limit (currently £54,010 ?) times the number of constituencies, as at present. If there are by-elections, the spending cap increases by £54,010 if they stand a candidate.

    But a political party is not just about MPs and elections; there are a whole host of other centralised jobs that need doing. But how much should be budgeted for that? Again, I'd argue that should be an amount that scales on how many constituencies a party stood in at the last GE. To help smaller parties, this should be a minimum of (say) 20. So they can still raise some funds.

    So the parties can raise money up to that total value, but no more. Having a maximum limit would IMO limit the ability for corruption in the system.

    (This is a broad outline only)

    The problem with using the last election as the basis for spending at the next election is that it builds in incumbency bias - not in terms of actual seats won of course but in terms of the most well established parties.

    So, for example, a moderate centre right party grows over the next 4 years but finds that it is extremely limited in its funding possibilities compared to, for example, Reform or the Greens, because they stood in most constituencies at the previous election.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,495
    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    Russia is pink lint and will need all it has to survive in Ukraine. More ships for Ukraine to sink mind you, I bet they are not headed to Black sea.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Three rail operators will be renationalised by Labour next year after it passed a law allowing it to do so.

    South Western Railways will be renationalised in May 2025, C2C in July 2025, and Greater Anglia in autumn 2025, the transport department has confirmed.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqlnrgjr79o
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    Yes individual and corporate donations to parties should be limited to something like £1,000/year, and the parties should need to rely more on a large number of small donations not a small number of large donations as they do today. Foreign donations shouldn’t be allowed at all.

    We definitely don’t want to go down the American route, where two candidates can somehow rack up spending of $3-4bn in only a few months, as happened in 2016. This year the Presidential candidates were far more restrained, only spending around $2bn between them!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Only 1 confirmed but I know you are an apologist for the Al Qaeda linked Syrian militant rebels
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    OT re flu.

    Yesterday I was in hospital for some tests, and two women pushing a trolley came round, sticking their heads in every doorway and offering the staff their Covid and Flu vaccinations. Most had already been done.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    Nigelb said:

    .

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the proposal.

    The government will implement a limit. And exempt trade unions.

    Anyone want to join the ground floor of The National Union of Hedge Fund Owners & Boiler Makers?

    First one hundred member get a gold share. Plus discounts on our range of picket line apparel by Prada.

    The brassier drums will be hand made from stainless steel drums, by the finest steelpan artisans of Kingston.

    Beer will be a custom line created specially for us in the Czech Republic. Sandwiches will be hand prepared, on site, by former staff of Serendipity 3.

    A potentially bigger difficulty might be the funding of political activity, as opposed to parties ?
    For example, it would be quite easy for Musk to give 100m to set up a new "Institute" to advocate for policy positions, even were the cap in place.
    I think it would be unstoppable, and the sector already both more important and more interesting than political parties. If you want sense about stuff you turn to RUSI, Chatham House, IFS, Resolution Foundation, Rowntree, Reform - the institute not the party - etc. You don't even think about turning to the parties, or to the government website.
    Such institutes do very valuable work - even on occasion, Blair's.

    My concern is more that the uber rich get to dominate the discourse by sheer weight of money. The marketplace of ideas is no longer a real marketplace, if one voice has 20x the money of the rest.
    That is a bigger risk than it has even been.
    Yes, this is a danger. Ameliorated by a couple of factors; The fact of the internet is an ideas leveller as well as an ever present danger. Proper academia - it still exists - has not entirely sold out to money. Publishing - books and journals - remains lively and diverse. The much derided BBC and Guardian (and Economist IMHO, others will differ) at least in the UK help the balance.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    edited December 4
    F1: after having unbrilliantly forgotten to take account of qualifying bets in 2022, I've finished (mostly accurately, hard to say if hedges come off always) putting together the results for that season.

    Hedged was a profit of £84.71 (assuming £10 stakes per bet), unhedged was a tenner less.

    Not amazing, but good to be positive.

    This year is set to be similar or better unhedged, and lower hedged. However, this year, until recently, has seen awful luck (that 29 on Piastri in the UK still irks me, and £20 was lost just between when I placed a bet on Verstappen and was ready to post the blog).

    Edited extra bit: odd season, btw, because despite having way fewer bets I made more on qualifying than races.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    Russia is pink lint and will need all it has to survive in Ukraine. More ships for Ukraine to sink mind you, I bet they are not headed to Black sea.
    Turkey would surely block any warships entering the Black Sea from Syria.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    Russia is pink lint and will need all it has to survive in Ukraine. More ships for Ukraine to sink mind you, I bet they are not headed to Black sea.
    Turkey would surely block any warships entering the Black Sea from Syria.
    They can't if the designated home base for the ship is one of the Black Sea ports. However they could stop them leaving again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Badenoch sat with Beckham at state dinner last night.

    'Sir Keir Starmer, as prime minister, was on the top table for the first time, along with the King, Queen and Prince of Wales - and the Qatari royal couple, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani and Sheikha Jawaher bint Hamad bin Suhaim Al Thani.

    Opposition leader Kemi Badenoch was sitting next to David Beckham, who on his other side was seated next to Nasser Al-Khelaifi, president of Paris St-Germain football club.

    David Beckham had been seen earlier holding hands with his wife Victoria as they arrived at the banquet.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791wr2e7nyo
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    HYUFD said:

    Badenoch sat with Beckham at state dinner last night.

    'Sir Keir Starmer, as prime minister, was on the top table for the first time, along with the King, Queen and Prince of Wales - and the Qatari royal couple, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani and Sheikha Jawaher bint Hamad bin Suhaim Al Thani.

    Opposition leader Kemi Badenoch was sitting next to David Beckham, who on his other side was seated next to Nasser Al-Khelaifi, president of Paris St-Germain football club.

    David Beckham had been seen earlier holding hands with his wife Victoria as they arrived at the banquet.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791wr2e7nyo

    That last sentence is really, really low-grade gossip.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Only 1 confirmed but I know you are an apologist for the Al Qaeda linked Syrian militant rebels
    No, I'm not an 'apologist' for them. The only group I have much sympathy for are the Kurds, and I have reservations over them because of the links with the PKK. I have stated this on here many times.

    I will respond in kind: you are an apologist for the Assad regime, which has used chemical weapons on civilians in the past, and which is working closely with Russia and Iran.

    Fair enough if you don't support the rebels. But that does not mean you should support Assad's regime either. In that case, don't support anyone, and give your prayers to the innocent civilians caught between these groups.

    But supporting Assad? Shame on you.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Who needs our Saturday morning Russian bots when we have HYUFD to push the pro-Russian line?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Badenoch sat with Beckham at state dinner last night.

    'Sir Keir Starmer, as prime minister, was on the top table for the first time, along with the King, Queen and Prince of Wales - and the Qatari royal couple, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani and Sheikha Jawaher bint Hamad bin Suhaim Al Thani.

    Opposition leader Kemi Badenoch was sitting next to David Beckham, who on his other side was seated next to Nasser Al-Khelaifi, president of Paris St-Germain football club.

    David Beckham had been seen earlier holding hands with his wife Victoria as they arrived at the banquet.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791wr2e7nyo

    That last sentence is really, really low-grade gossip.
    There is even a picture of Kemi and Becks next to each other at the dinner table

    https://news.sky.com/story/king-hosts-emir-of-qatar-at-state-banquet-with-beckhams-among-the-famous-faces-in-attendance-13266306
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972

    F1: after having unbrilliantly forgotten to take account of qualifying bets in 2022, I've finished (mostly accurately, hard to say if hedges come off always) putting together the results for that season.

    Hedged was a profit of £84.71 (assuming £10 stakes per bet), unhedged was a tenner less.

    Not amazing, but good to be positive.

    This year is set to be similar or better unhedged, and lower hedged. However, this year, until recently, has seen awful luck (that 29 on Piastri in the UK still irks me, and £20 was lost just between when I placed a bet on Verstappen and was ready to post the blog).

    Edited extra bit: odd season, btw, because despite having way fewer bets I made more on qualifying than races.

    Did I hear you say that you’re green on both McLaren and Ferrari for the Constructors’ Championship?

    I decided to go to the last race once I realised it wasn’t going to be a foregone conclusion months ago in favour of Red Bull, only to discover that tens of thousands of people took the decision before me, and there were no tickets left except for some very expensive hospitality, so will be watching on TV alongside everyone else on Sunday afternoon!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Badenoch sat with Beckham at state dinner last night.

    'Sir Keir Starmer, as prime minister, was on the top table for the first time, along with the King, Queen and Prince of Wales - and the Qatari royal couple, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani and Sheikha Jawaher bint Hamad bin Suhaim Al Thani.

    Opposition leader Kemi Badenoch was sitting next to David Beckham, who on his other side was seated next to Nasser Al-Khelaifi, president of Paris St-Germain football club.

    David Beckham had been seen earlier holding hands with his wife Victoria as they arrived at the banquet.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791wr2e7nyo

    That last sentence is really, really low-grade gossip.
    Now if he'd been holding hands with Kemi..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Who needs our Saturday morning Russian bots when we have HYUFD to push the pro-Russian line?
    Well at least I am not pushing pro Al Qaeda militant propoganda
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    Russia is pink lint and will need all it has to survive in Ukraine. More ships for Ukraine to sink mind you, I bet they are not headed to Black sea.
    Turkey would surely block any warships entering the Black Sea from Syria.
    They can't if the designated home base for the ship is one of the Black Sea ports. However they could stop them leaving again.
    I believe that's correct. But AIUI the Montreux convention states the 'home base' cannot be changed at a time of war. So Russia cannot just 'rehome' ships it wants to send. (From what I've read; I've not actually read the convention...)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Only 1 confirmed but I know you are an apologist for the Al Qaeda linked Syrian militant rebels
    No, I'm not an 'apologist' for them. The only group I have much sympathy for are the Kurds, and I have reservations over them because of the links with the PKK. I have stated this on here many times.

    I will respond in kind: you are an apologist for the Assad regime, which has used chemical weapons on civilians in the past, and which is working closely with Russia and Iran.

    Fair enough if you don't support the rebels. But that does not mean you should support Assad's regime either. In that case, don't support anyone, and give your prayers to the innocent civilians caught between these groups.

    But supporting Assad? Shame on you.
    You are an apologist for Al Qaeda linked militants in Syria, because if Assad falls they are who will replace him not the Kurds. Endangering our national security far more than Assad ever could.

    Shame on you
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Who needs our Saturday morning Russian bots when we have HYUFD to push the pro-Russian line?
    Well at least I am not pushing pro Al Qaeda militant propoganda
    Who is?
  • Totally agree, bankers, like lawyers, are key to a successful economy,

    Britain’s ‘get the f---ers’ attitude has hurt banking, warns former Barclays chief

    Bob Diamond said British banks suffered ‘biblical justice’ at the hands of politicians after the financial crisis


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/03/britains-attitude-has-hurt-banking-former-barclays-chief/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Sandpit said:

    F1: after having unbrilliantly forgotten to take account of qualifying bets in 2022, I've finished (mostly accurately, hard to say if hedges come off always) putting together the results for that season.

    Hedged was a profit of £84.71 (assuming £10 stakes per bet), unhedged was a tenner less.

    Not amazing, but good to be positive.

    This year is set to be similar or better unhedged, and lower hedged. However, this year, until recently, has seen awful luck (that 29 on Piastri in the UK still irks me, and £20 was lost just between when I placed a bet on Verstappen and was ready to post the blog).

    Edited extra bit: odd season, btw, because despite having way fewer bets I made more on qualifying than races.

    Did I hear you say that you’re green on both McLaren and Ferrari for the Constructors’ Championship?

    I decided to go to the last race once I realised it wasn’t going to be a foregone conclusion months ago in favour of Red Bull, only to discover that tens of thousands of people took the decision before me, and there were no tickets left except for some very expensive hospitality, so will be watching on TV alongside everyone else on Sunday afternoon!
    Yes, more on Ferrari than McLaren. I initially backed McLaren at 4.1, then Ferrari at 9.5. recently (for a small sum) laid McLaren at 1.21 but that's likely to have been a misstep.

    Bad luck with Abu Dhabi. On the plus side, no risk of encountering James Corden (I forget which of Vettel's titles it was, but one of them won there had him interviewed with that bloated prick being a dick in the background).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Totally agree, bankers, like lawyers, are key to a successful economy,

    Britain’s ‘get the f---ers’ attitude has hurt banking, warns former Barclays chief

    Bob Diamond said British banks suffered ‘biblical justice’ at the hands of politicians after the financial crisis


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/03/britains-attitude-has-hurt-banking-former-barclays-chief/

    In some respects the US approach was better for pushing growth again, they let a few banks who had built up the biggest debt like Lehmans go bust and capitalism play its pure natural course for them but bailed out the rest. However they did not restrict bonuses or tighten rules as much as Europe has for their banks after as Diamond suggests.

    If another crash occurs in the US though the European approach would be proved right
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Only 1 confirmed but I know you are an apologist for the Al Qaeda linked Syrian militant rebels
    No, I'm not an 'apologist' for them. The only group I have much sympathy for are the Kurds, and I have reservations over them because of the links with the PKK. I have stated this on here many times.

    I will respond in kind: you are an apologist for the Assad regime, which has used chemical weapons on civilians in the past, and which is working closely with Russia and Iran.

    Fair enough if you don't support the rebels. But that does not mean you should support Assad's regime either. In that case, don't support anyone, and give your prayers to the innocent civilians caught between these groups.

    But supporting Assad? Shame on you.
    You are an apologist for Al Qaeda linked militants in Syria, because if Assad falls they are who will replace him not the Kurds. Endangering our national security far more than Assad ever could.

    Shame on you
    That is quite a stretch from what I wrote.

    Assad is collaborating with both Russia and Iran. Russia in particular has air bases and a naval base in Syria that allow it to project its power: apparently the air bases are a key link to the mercenary interests they have in Africa and which are bringing them in massive amounts of dirty lucre.

    As I said before: you don't have to pick a side. If you don't like any of them, don't pick any of them. Just pray for the civilians. That's pretty much my position - though as I say, I do have a lot of sympathy for the Kurds (PKK excepted).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    boulay said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    Yes, I’m sure there will be some wriggle that unions are a lot of individuals but somehow corporations aren’t.
    This has been an argument that has gone round and round. The trade off has always been capping corporations and individuals if you cap unions. Labour has always resisted.

    Just to be clear this will MASSIVELY tilt the political battlefield in Labour’s favour. It’s far worse than ID requirements, redistricting or anything else that has been suggested over the years. I assume we will see a lot of posts from those who complained about ID condemning this proposal.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Only 1 confirmed but I know you are an apologist for the Al Qaeda linked Syrian militant rebels
    No, I'm not an 'apologist' for them. The only group I have much sympathy for are the Kurds, and I have reservations over them because of the links with the PKK. I have stated this on here many times.

    I will respond in kind: you are an apologist for the Assad regime, which has used chemical weapons on civilians in the past, and which is working closely with Russia and Iran.

    Fair enough if you don't support the rebels. But that does not mean you should support Assad's regime either. In that case, don't support anyone, and give your prayers to the innocent civilians caught between these groups.

    But supporting Assad? Shame on you.
    You are an apologist for Al Qaeda linked militants in Syria, because if Assad falls they are who will replace him not the Kurds. Endangering our national security far more than Assad ever could.

    Shame on you
    It’s not pushing propaganda to point out that Assad’s regime is one of the most murderous in the region, is now tottering, and its fall would be a blow to Russia.

    That does not mean its replacement would be any better.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,378

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I take it that cap would apply to unions too?

    It would be perfectly fair if so.

    Unions may though ask Members to opt in or out of the Political Levy as has been done widely in the past and then argue its perfectly fair to divide the donation by the number "opting in".

    That would also be perfectly fair if you assume most large donations are from individuals.

    What does need stopping is donations from overseas or more specifically NON UK taxpayers. By all means if you pay Taxes here you can donate, if you don't you can't!
    Perhaps donations should be limited to those who are net contributors to the Treasury?
    How about votes as well?
    Everyone should get a vote but after the initial vote you get an extra one for each £1k of tax you pay (being an average over the life of a Parliament). We need more tax somehow, anyhow really.
    Some years ago, The Economist did a physiological survey. To test an idea. The idea was making income tax a lottery. If you won, no tax for a year. The more you paid as a percentage of income, above a minimum, the more chance of winning.

    IIRC, they estimated some interesting levels of increased tax take.
    "Physiological" survey? Was that an autocorrect?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    They aren’t getting through the Bosphorous though, and St Pete’s is froze until May.

    Kalingrad maybe?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521

    Totally agree, bankers, like lawyers, are key to a successful economy,

    Britain’s ‘get the f---ers’ attitude has hurt banking, warns former Barclays chief

    Bob Diamond said British banks suffered ‘biblical justice’ at the hands of politicians after the financial crisis


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/03/britains-attitude-has-hurt-banking-former-barclays-chief/

    Jehovah’s treatment of the bankers would have been one of tough love. Sending she-bears to maul them, and having them carted off to decades of exile by foreign conquerors.

    The Lord chastises those whom He loves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    All of this about the funding of political parties as a knee jerk reaction to Elon Musk talking about a large donation to Reform.

    He has played a blinder here.

    Really wound up people over here about it and wound up the Labour govt too. Top trolling.

    He's just done the usual of spreading more shit.
    I wouldn't call that playing a blinder.

    Capricious mega-billionaires throwing their weight around in the political arena isn't new, but it's not irrelevant; it's a hard problem. And it deserves thinking about.
    We know what Musk's politics are, and he's been open about who and what he is looking at funding. That's a good deal less insidious than the kind of influence that leads to gushing Tweets about (and no doubt extremely lucrative infrastructure contracts for) Blackrock from our Government.
    I think you ignore the second order effects from an institute with 100m in potential funding. That buys a LOT of full time opinion makers - who are likely to be doing just that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    How much money does a political party need to operate? I'd argue there should be a limit to spending as well, just as there is at election time.

    So we can say if they stand in (say) 600 of the 650 constituencies, then they must be able to raise the election spending limit (currently £54,010 ?) times the number of constituencies, as at present. If there are by-elections, the spending cap increases by £54,010 if they stand a candidate.

    But a political party is not just about MPs and elections; there are a whole host of other centralised jobs that need doing. But how much should be budgeted for that? Again, I'd argue that should be an amount that scales on how many constituencies a party stood in at the last GE. To help smaller parties, this should be a minimum of (say) 20. So they can still raise some funds.

    So the parties can raise money up to that total value, but no more. Having a maximum limit would IMO limit the ability for corruption in the system.

    (This is a broad outline only)

    The problem with using the last election as the basis for spending at the next election is that it builds in incumbency bias - not in terms of actual seats won of course but in terms of the most well established parties.

    So, for example, a moderate centre right party grows over the next 4 years but finds that it is extremely limited in its funding possibilities compared to, for example, Reform or the Greens, because they stood in most constituencies at the previous election.
    Yep, there will be problems with any system. But my broad question remains: how much does a political party actually need?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    boulay said:

    Sorry about this O/T. On the news this morning they mentioned that the UK have ordered 5m bird flu vaccines for human variant. The report went on to at they were for front line staff and the most vulnerable.

    It kicked off an internal debate about the issue of protecting the most vulnerable in a pandemic again.

    One side of me, the vaguely human part with a tiny heart and soul was thinking that of course a society needs to protect the vulnerable, old, weak, poorest, northerners and then the other part was thinking - didn’t we try this last time and absolutely screw the country, the economy, childhoods, mental health and so on.

    Should, come the next pandemic (sooner than we think I think) we decide to be harsh and protect the young, the future as the priority?

    I don’ t have the answer because they are both valid moral positions - protect the vulnerable/protect the future - but I worry that the Covid Inquiry has been so busy settling scores, bashing political enemies, points scoring, when the priority should have been - what do we do next time and let’s work it out quickly.

    I know there are older members of the PB community and it would be interesting to hear if you would say “we have had our innings, let’s not ruin it for the young again” or would you understandably think that you
    have the right, and everyone else the obligation, to protect the vulnerable first?

    The media is panicking. Again.

    H5N1 is a well known variant. There is occasional transmission intra species (the jump to dairy cows is notable as swine and humans are much more common).

    Nothing to see here. We’re not going to lock down or anything like that
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 4
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    In fact the Russians have killed 400 of the Islamist militant rebels
    https://news.sky.com/story/syria-says-its-strikes-with-russia-have-killed-at-least-400-insurgents-over-past-24-hours-13265595

    The fact Russia has withdrawn 1 ship from Tartus means little.

    We of course cannot afford for the Assad regime to be replaced by the Al Qaeda linked rebels either
    One ship?
    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1864065378034266157
    https://defence-blog.com/russian-warships-leave-syrias-key-naval-base/

    You notice that your story is about Syrian claims. I might suggest to you that the claims might be somewhat bogus, or include innocent civilians as 'insurgents'.
    Only 1 confirmed but I know you are an apologist for the Al Qaeda linked Syrian militant rebels
    No, I'm not an 'apologist' for them. The only group I have much sympathy for are the Kurds, and I have reservations over them because of the links with the PKK. I have stated this on here many times.

    I will respond in kind: you are an apologist for the Assad regime, which has used chemical weapons on civilians in the past, and which is working closely with Russia and Iran.

    Fair enough if you don't support the rebels. But that does not mean you should support Assad's regime either. In that case, don't support anyone, and give your prayers to the innocent civilians caught between these groups.

    But supporting Assad? Shame on you.
    You are an apologist for Al Qaeda linked militants in Syria, because if Assad falls they are who will replace him not the Kurds. Endangering our national security far more than Assad ever could.

    Shame on you
    It’s not pushing propaganda to point out that Assad’s regime is one of the most murderous in the region, is now tottering, and its fall would be a blow to Russia.

    That does not mean its replacement would be any better.
    Compared to Iran or Taliban controlled Afghanistan or Hamas controlled Gaza or Saudi Arabia, Assad's regime is arguably relatively moderate.

    Its fall would be a disaster for us and the West as much as Russia, as Syria would be taken over by Al Qaeda linked militants and would provide a major base for jihadi terrorism to export to western cities
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news, the Russian military ships that were docked in Tartus, Syria, all appear to have left.

    I wonder why?

    It looks as if the Assad regime is crumbling and Russia has decided it can no longer afford to sustain it. We have yet to discover if this proves a good thing or not.

    Meanwhile it looks as if President Yoon is going to be impeached as early as today for his martial law efforts.

    Interesting times and Trump hasn't even taken office yet.
    Russia is pink lint and will need all it has to survive in Ukraine. More ships for Ukraine to sink mind you, I bet they are not headed to Black sea.
    Turkey would surely block any warships entering the Black Sea from Syria.
    They can't if the designated home base for the ship is one of the Black Sea ports. However they could stop them leaving again.
    I believe that's correct. But AIUI the Montreux convention states the 'home base' cannot be changed at a time of war. So Russia cannot just 'rehome' ships it wants to send. (From what I've read; I've not actually read the convention...)
    Importantly, this seems to be the interpretation that Turkey is using for passage into the Black Sea.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    edited December 4
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Badenoch sat with Beckham at state dinner last night.

    'Sir Keir Starmer, as prime minister, was on the top table for the first time, along with the King, Queen and Prince of Wales - and the Qatari royal couple, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani and Sheikha Jawaher bint Hamad bin Suhaim Al Thani.

    Opposition leader Kemi Badenoch was sitting next to David Beckham, who on his other side was seated next to Nasser Al-Khelaifi, president of Paris St-Germain football club.

    David Beckham had been seen earlier holding hands with his wife Victoria as they arrived at the banquet.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c791wr2e7nyo

    That last sentence is really, really low-grade gossip.
    There is even a picture of Kemi and Becks next to each other at the dinner table

    https://news.sky.com/story/king-hosts-emir-of-qatar-at-state-banquet-with-beckhams-among-the-famous-faces-in-attendance-13266306
    The King, the Queen, and the most famous couple in the world sitting next to Kemi.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    How much money does a political party need to operate? I'd argue there should be a limit to spending as well, just as there is at election time.

    So we can say if they stand in (say) 600 of the 650 constituencies, then they must be able to raise the election spending limit (currently £54,010 ?) times the number of constituencies, as at present. If there are by-elections, the spending cap increases by £54,010 if they stand a candidate.

    But a political party is not just about MPs and elections; there are a whole host of other centralised jobs that need doing. But how much should be budgeted for that? Again, I'd argue that should be an amount that scales on how many constituencies a party stood in at the last GE. To help smaller parties, this should be a minimum of (say) 20. So they can still raise some funds.

    So the parties can raise money up to that total value, but no more. Having a maximum limit would IMO limit the ability for corruption in the system.

    (This is a broad outline only)

    The problem with using the last election as the basis for spending at the next election is that it builds in incumbency bias - not in terms of actual seats won of course but in terms of the most well established parties.

    So, for example, a moderate centre right party grows over the next 4 years but finds that it is extremely limited in its funding possibilities compared to, for example, Reform or the Greens, because they stood in most constituencies at the previous election.
    Yep, there will be problems with any system. But my broad question remains: how much does a political party actually need?
    I think your basic calculations are sound but I would say that all parties should be treated equally and be given the same overall limits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the proposal.

    The government will implement a limit. And exempt trade unions.

    Anyone want to join the ground floor of The National Union of Hedge Fund Owners & Boiler Makers?

    First one hundred member get a gold share. Plus discounts on our range of picket line apparel by Prada.

    The brassier drums will be hand made from stainless steel drums, by the finest steelpan artisans of Kingston.

    Beer will be a custom line created specially for us in the Czech Republic. Sandwiches will be hand prepared, on site, by former staff of Serendipity 3.

    A potentially bigger difficulty might be the funding of political activity, as opposed to parties ?
    For example, it would be quite easy for Musk to give 100m to set up a new "Institute" to advocate for policy positions, even were the cap in place.
    I think it would be unstoppable, and the sector already both more important and more interesting than political parties. If you want sense about stuff you turn to RUSI, Chatham House, IFS, Resolution Foundation, Rowntree, Reform - the institute not the party - etc. You don't even think about turning to the parties, or to the government website.
    Such institutes do very valuable work - even on occasion, Blair's.

    My concern is more that the uber rich get to dominate the discourse by sheer weight of money. The marketplace of ideas is no longer a real marketplace, if one voice has 20x the money of the rest.
    That is a bigger risk than it has even been.
    Yes, this is a danger. Ameliorated by a couple of factors; The fact of the internet is an ideas leveller as well as an ever present danger. Proper academia - it still exists - has not entirely sold out to money. Publishing - books and journals - remains lively and diverse. The much derided BBC and Guardian (and Economist IMHO, others will differ) at least in the UK help the balance.
    I'm not saying it's the end of the world.
This discussion has been closed.