It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVID, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
We are heading into a doom loop where Labour will have to raise taxes again and again, just to keep the show on the road, meantime that drives wealth and investment out of the country, requiring even MORE tax
Horrendous
You can see why those anonymous “senior Labour figures” in the FT are “resigned to this being a one-term government”
As a Jaguar owner I find the advert genuinely bewildering. Where are the cars?
I have to say that I have enjoyed my car which I have now driven for over 120k miles with no major problems. It is a bit of a bugger to park but truly excellent on motorways, has a good sound system and is very comfortable. But I am clearly not with the zeitgeist because I am still talking about a car, not a disco remake.
I had a loaner Jag when my Disco was in for service. A much stiffer ride, but the thing that surprised me most was it is wider than the Land Rover. Not easy to park at all
It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVI, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
Could we have dollar parity by the time Starmer and Trump are done ?
The latter could well do far, far more damage than anything Reeves is up to.
When tariffs raise the after-tax price of imported goods, demand for the imported goods falls. Lower demand for foreign goods means lower demand for foreign currencies, making the US dollar stronger as a result.
The ad is mind boggling. Jaguar was a dead brand, arguably dead for decades, but I’m not sure that this captures what’s left of it for the next generation
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
So you think they deliberately wanted to alienate their loyal customer base and start a culture war against them, rather than innovate and take them with them?
Remind me how well that's worked out in the past?
This will finish the Brand.
Probably wouldn’t be a bad thing. Just produce the RR range.the range has been fucked for years.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
“Up to the moment”
As others have said on TwiX, to be really radical and surprising they should have gone over-the-top on the Tory Britishness. In the car we see a beautiful white heterosexual British couple, young and wealthy and posh, maybe he’s in a Barbour or tweeds, she’s half naked and absurdly sexy, with dead pheasants on the back seat, maybe a working class guy doffing his cap as they motor past
THAT would have been genuinely daring - also funny - and got everyone talking - often in outrage - while also subtly playing to Jaguar’s few remaining strengths
Maybe that's next. The ad-watching public might need some up-sophisticsating, that said.
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.
It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.
The ad is catastrophic. Awkward, strange, inane, cringe
It’s not even interestingly NEW and DARING. It’s like they asked GPT3.5/Sora to “make an absurdly Woke ad for a car like it’s still 2019”
The ad is instantly dated. Calamitous
You know you’ve messed up your brand when your biggest and most famous fan dies so that he can turn in his grave at what you have done.
LOL. Thank you for that. Genuinely. I was thinking pretty much along the same lines, connecting the two, but wasn't sure how to phrase it in an appropriate manner. You nailed it
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Reflecting on this further, how does this advertising style fit into the advertising landscape in the USA?
Is this campaign being run there, and is lifestyle image advertising like this unfamiliar, @rcs1000 ? How would it play with wealthy Republicans, for example?
(And good morning, everyone.)
It's a risky strategy. Given its Peak Woke vibes it doesn't bode well for the Trump administration being sympathetic to leniency on tarrifs for it, or other British car manufacturers.
This strikes me as the usual globalist executive clique making EDI decisions based on their "values" and the desire to "celebrate diversity", and being a bit embarrassed by its British heritage and tradition.
I bet not a single one challenged it in the room.
On the other side of that, UK advertising - I wonder if this is a UK agency - has been very different from US advertising.
It's anecdata, however watching "reaction" videos by Usonians to UK advertising running at the time of their youth is quite interesting. The idea of "brand promotion" type advertising is unusual, as is the sideways/subtle communication or brand reinforcement - remember Silk Cut back in the day, or even something as everyday as Walnut Whips, or more off the wall such as You've Been Tangoed.
Here are a couple of examples from a channel called "King Boomer", who is roughly PB core demographic - middle aged, bloke, "I'm just a muppet with a beard".
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
“Up to the moment”
As others have said on TwiX, to be really radical and surprising they should have gone over-the-top on the Tory Britishness. In the car we see a beautiful white heterosexual British couple, young and wealthy and posh, maybe he’s in a Barbour or tweeds, she’s half naked and absurdly sexy, with dead pheasants on the back seat, maybe a working class guy doffing his cap as they motor past
THAT would have been genuinely daring - also funny - and got everyone talking - often in outrage - while also subtly playing to Jaguar’s few remaining strengths
Isn't their key market China these days?
No idea. I do know the Chinese love all that old fashioned posh Barbours-and-Bond Britishness. It is our brand. Our USP
Look how well BMW did with the rebadged Mini. Union Jack tail lights. Etc
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.
Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.
It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.
Well, not really. I bought an XE in 2017 and absolutely loved it.
Jag did really well with their 2013-2019 marques.
That’s the X760 you bought. Worked on that. They had high hopes for it. 60,000 units a year. Got nowhere near it. Glad you liked it. Sadly not enough did.
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.
It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.
The ad is catastrophic. Awkward, strange, inane, cringe
It’s not even interestingly NEW and DARING. It’s like they asked GPT3.5/Sora to “make an absurdly Woke ad for a car like it’s still 2019”
The ad is instantly dated. Calamitous
Why the fuck is a Wokey progressive yank in charge of the branding for an iconic British car anyway?
There's no limit to the extent I want him, his philosophy and his ilk to fuck off.
Have you ever owned a Jag ?
(Edit) I see you have. The ad doesn't appear to be particularly effective, then. 😏
As a Jaguar owner I find the advert genuinely bewildering. Where are the cars?
I have to say that I have enjoyed my car which I have now driven for over 120k miles with no major problems. It is a bit of a bugger to park but truly excellent on motorways, has a good sound system and is very comfortable. But I am clearly not with the zeitgeist because I am still talking about a car, not a disco remake.
I had a loaner Jag when my Disco was in for service. A much stiffer ride, but the thing that surprised me most was it is wider than the Land Rover. Not easy to park at all
Yes, we had an XF(?) when our A7 was in for a insurance repair after someone hit the back of it and it was a much less comfortable ride and it had far fewer conveniences. It didn't warm me to getting one and I was quite excited to test out a Jag for the couple of weeks we had it.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
“Up to the moment”
As others have said on TwiX, to be really radical and surprising they should have gone over-the-top on the Tory Britishness. In the car we see a beautiful white heterosexual British couple, young and wealthy and posh, maybe he’s in a Barbour or tweeds, she’s half naked and absurdly sexy, with dead pheasants on the back seat, maybe a working class guy doffing his cap as they motor past
THAT would have been genuinely daring - also funny - and got everyone talking - often in outrage - while also subtly playing to Jaguar’s few remaining strengths
Maybe that's next. The ad-watching public might need some up-sophisticsating, that said.
Yup. The punters are the problem. They need to reshape their trauma
It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVID, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
The Tories presenting themselves as fiscal hawks is going to require a serious makeover from the last government but there are going to be shed loads of votes in doing so as the consequences of this stupidity become apparent. Higher interest rates, lower growth, a decline in Sterling resulting in imported inflation and a steady rise in unemployment. We are in serious trouble.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
With the benefit of hindsight that looks an amazing ad.
Was it well received at the time. I barely remember it but was 19 at the time so spent my time not watching TV but going out and getting pissed with chums.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
So you think they deliberately wanted to alienate their loyal customer base and start a culture war against them, rather than innovate and take them with them?
Remind me how well that's worked out in the past?
This will finish the Brand.
Will it - or was it already dead ?
At least this one has everyone watching to see where the eff they go from here. Probably their most talked about ad for a decade at least.
On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.
Without looking them up, my vague memory is that all the New Labour types were about the same age so will be in their 70s now (and PB discussed this recently with the news that Harriet Harman was going to the Lords at the same time as an age limit will be applied, which again fits with her being in her 70s).
Margaret Beckett traced back to the Callaghan years and is 81. Of the big names, I don't recall any others as being from an earlier political generation than Blair and Brown. Maybe in fringe positions...
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
Most cars are just about the same these days so branding is everything.
You need something distinctive. That’s what the first range of Minis did so well. It also helped the BMW really invested in plant Oxford. They also laid on cracking buffets
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
Most cars are just about the same these days so branding is everything.
You need something distinctive. That’s what the first range of Minis did so well. It also helped the BMW really invested in plant Oxford. They also laid on cracking buffets
I meana look at the Rolls and Bentley SUVs. Shockingly East Germany 1983.
I am interested to see what the new Jags are going to look like.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
She is a nasty shouting rude person. Labour deserve her. Most people roll their eyes at the mere mention of her. She has nothing to say about anything bar insults.
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.
Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.
It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.
Well, not really. I bought an XE in 2017 and absolutely loved it.
Jag did really well with their 2013-2019 marques.
That’s the X760 you bought. Worked on that. They had high hopes for it. 60,000 units a year. Got nowhere near it. Glad you liked it. Sadly not enough did.
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.
Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.
It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.
Well, not really. I bought an XE in 2017 and absolutely loved it.
Jag did really well with their 2013-2019 marques.
A chauffeur, who obviously drove luxury cars for a living, described the XJ as the best car he'd driven.
On the new branding, dunno. The XJ/XF shape and badge were radical departures from the classic shape Jaguar used from the 1960s onwards. The trouble now is there do not seem to be any cars.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
She is a nasty shouting rude person. Labour deserve her. Most people roll their eyes at the mere mention of her. She has nothing to say about anything bar insults.
My Mum is a former Tory voter (the kind seemingly they don’t want back) and brings up Rayner as fabulous without any prompting. I think you are wrong.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.
I guess they aren't remembered so well now, simply because they died a long time ago, but Robin Cook and Donald Dewar? Blair's first Foreign Secretary and the first First Minister of Scotland were seriously big beasts at that time and hugely influential. Mo Mowlam was also a big part of the Northern Ireland process.
On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.
Without looking them up, my vague memory is that all the New Labour types were about the same age so will be in their 70s now (and PB discussed this recently with the news that Harriet Harman was going to the Lords at the same time as an age limit will be applied, which again fits with her being in her 70s).
Margaret Beckett traced back to the Callaghan years and is 81. Of the big names, I don't recall any others as being from an earlier political generation than Blair and Brown. Maybe in fringe positions...
Almost no one in that 1997 Cabinet had previous cabinet experience.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVI, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
Could we have dollar parity by the time Starmer and Trump are done ?
We almost had dollar parity in 1985. Bloody Labour.
Jaguar has the same problem Star Wars has: legacy brands with appeal to older men who remember them from childhood. They try to expand their appeal to a younger and/or more female generation and fail, pissing off their legacy fans in the process. They'll recover when they produce a product that re-appeals to to the legacy fans by mining their concerns: so basically the Jaguar Andor.
On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.
I guess they aren't remembered so well now, simply because they died a long time ago, but Robin Cook and Donald Dewar? Blair's first Foreign Secretary and the first First Minister of Scotland were seriously big beasts at that time and hugely influential. Mo Mowlam was also a big part of the Northern Ireland process.
Mo Mowlam wasn’t very popular inside New Labour though, she was completely cast aside.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I would just refer back to my reply to @OnlyLivingBoy at 9.11 when I said Rayner has a genuine back story and is far better, especially at the dispatch box, than Starmer
Quite a while back, and when she was relatively unknown, I did say to keep an eye on Phillipson but you dismissed it at the time so I assume you have changed your mind
I would add Starmer is unlikely to be replaced before the next GE, and nobody has a clue as to the future of politics in this uncertain world
It is interesting Welsh labour are desperately seeking a deal with Plaid to get one extra vote for their budget, otherwise it will fail to pass the Senedd which in turn will be a crisis for them, and this before the 2026 Senedd elections
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVI, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
Could we have dollar parity by the time Starmer and Trump are done ?
We almost had dollar parity in 1985. Bloody Labour.
Jaguar has the same problem Star Wars has: legacy brands with appeal to older men who remember them from childhood. They try to expand their appeal to a younger and/or more female generation and fail, pissing off their legacy fans in the process. They'll recover when they produce a product that re-appeals to to the legacy fans by mining their concerns: so basically the Jaguar Andor.
Is Star Wars unpopular amongst kids? It seems quite popular at my son's primary (including a couple of girls).
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
During the 1960s, programmes often used stock footage of a Jaguar going over a cliff. It is jarring once you notice, so you're probably better off not reading this.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Truss?
She didn't last 4 months, indeed barely 4 weeks and at least the conservatives got rid of her
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
If I’d said to you in early 2021 when people here were saying Johnson was going to be PM for a decade and Starmer would have to resign, that he’d win a landslide in 2024 you’d have laughed at me and indeed did. But that is exactly what happened.
I personally think Starmer’s odds are better than many here expect. But I accept I am probably in a minority of one.
This forum at the moment is still getting over the fact the Tories have just left government. A lot of sensible perspective has really been lost in that process, much like what I lost around 2019. But after that I accepted what had happened and I moved on, I think few here have yet.
I see it every day with the people I follow on Twitter that oppose my views. “Starmer will have to resign”, “government about to collapse”. They have a majority of 160 something, like it or not they’ve got five years to do something.
To call them dead now when we’ve had this story of SKS being the worst leader in the world at least five times since 2020 strikes me as incredibly naive.
As I said, do I think SKS is doing well, no I don’t. But do I think it is terminal, absolutely not.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
During the 1960s, programmes often used stock footage of a Jaguar going over a cliff. It is jarring once you notice, so you're probably better off not reading this.
The Sweeney generally shot all their footage. Some die hard do tours of the locations. Very few sadly exist. Although the pub in Night Out is still there.
The blown up helicopter from a Bond movie made a fair few appearance even in the timeless classic Dr Who story the Daemons.
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
When the tanks have gone, the IFVs have gone, the artillery has gone, the troops have gone, the Black Sea Fleet has gone - what else has Putin got left to throw at Ukraine?
Also as I have said and will say many times, I really do value this site as a view into those I wouldn’t connect with in the real world. That’s a thing this place does almost uniquely so whilst I don’t agree with a lot of people, I really do value the arguments put forward. I do frequently change my mind from what people here say.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
The news on borrowing this morning together with the prospects of higher interest rates for longer and the general economy has actually quite frightened me this morning with ghosts of the IMF and profound consequences for everyone
We simply are spending far too much, borrowing and taxing too much, and seemingly refuse to accept this has to stop and everyone will be poorer
Exactly. The ad is not even original. It’s a copy. And this is an ad with the tagline “copy nothing”
It's tired, stale, and says nothing. As a statement of intent it says 'we couldn't be bothered, this script was written by ChatGPT'.
Couldn't be more generic and meaningless if it tried.
There was a guy on Twitter years back who wrote parodies of perfume ads. This looks like a bad one of that.
If I remember correctly, JLR did their own advertising in house at Spark44. Then they brought in Accenture - those famous creative types - to run the agency for them.
So there you have it. It's a paint-by-numbers ad made by accountants, consultants, and other first-class ticket holders on Golgafrincham Ark B.
It's what people who've never seen a good ad in their lives think a good ad looks like.
I don't have a problem with the diversity angle, men who wear dresses and carry giant sledgehammers buy cars, too. Presumably. I'm just not sure that's going to play well with Jag's current customer base.
I've no idea how this ad made it past the focus group stage. I have worked at companies where marketing directors try to push through their vision of what a brand should be because they want to make *their* mark. But they are always stopped in their tracks when focus groups point out the rebrand is going to be a car crash.
How this one made it through testing I've no idea. Desperate last roll of the dice from a company that's going under? Egomaniac CMO with the ability to overrule testing and all available evidence? Bad or botched research done in house?
It's a case study they'll be learning about in ad school for years, that's for sure.
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
That's an expensive way to not achieve a lot. They must have run out of shorter range missiles.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
The news on borrowing this morning together with the prospects of higher interest rates for longer and the general economy has actually quite frightened me this morning with ghosts of the IMF and profound consequences for everyone
We simply are spending far too much, borrowing and taxing too much, and seemingly refuse to accept this has to stop and everyone will be poorer
Worth listening to Liam Halligan on Times Radio yesterday. This is 1975 not 1997.
On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.
I guess they aren't remembered so well now, simply because they died a long time ago, but Robin Cook and Donald Dewar? Blair's first Foreign Secretary and the first First Minister of Scotland were seriously big beasts at that time and hugely influential. Mo Mowlam was also a big part of the Northern Ireland process.
Mo Mowlam wasn’t very popular inside New Labour though, she was completely cast aside.
Was I alone in thinking Mo Mowlam was rubbish? Her strategy appeared to be to pander to the extremists on either side - she massively strengthened the hand of the more, er, muscular strands of loyalism and republicanism and sidelined the pragmatists.
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
Labour are ploughing on with their fucked business model, already shown to be broken over mulitple Governments, namely, heap more tax and borrowing on the private sector than is sustainable, to give to an ever-hungry public sector.
So no, there is no economic miracle riding to the rescue.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
The news on borrowing this morning together with the prospects of higher interest rates for longer and the general economy has actually quite frightened me this morning with ghosts of the IMF and profound consequences for everyone
We simply are spending far too much, borrowing and taxing too much, and seemingly refuse to accept this has to stop and everyone will be poorer
Worth listening to Liam Halligan on Times Radio yesterday. This is 1975 not 1997.
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
That's an expensive way to not achieve a lot. They must have run out of shorter range missiles.
Surely it's a not so coded message: this is a conventionally armed ICBM this time, but...
Saying Rayner connects Labour with the chav class is exactly the kind of comment that shows the attitude of some Tories hasn’t changed.
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
I like Rayner. I think she’d be a far better leader than Starmer and she’d choose a much better Chancellor than the dreadful Reeves
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
They aren’t panicking in Labour HQ. They have years left before it is terminal. Anything else is wishcasting on the level of the left after the 2019 loss.
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
He’s the worst performing PM four months into the job since modern polling began, that counts as doing terribly.
Is he doing terribly according to the polling, yes.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
The only way he recovers is if the economy miraculously turns around. He certainly can’t rely on charm, wit, charisma or even basic honesty. He’s a lying grifter and the public has decided they despise him
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
You are so delightfully short-termist sometimes.
"Four months" = LOL. Labour has a huge majority and the Starmer gamble is very obviously that he'll take pain now in order to hand out sweeties in 2028. I'm not convinced it'll work or that he has the chops to deal with the pain without fatal damage. But I do know that expecting to see it in lagging indicators four months after an election is economically illiterate madness.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
Most cars are just about the same these days so branding is everything.
You need something distinctive. That’s what the first range of Minis did so well. It also helped the BMW really invested in plant Oxford. They also laid on cracking buffets
The new Mini was a marketing act of genius. A mix of old and new.
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.
I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.
But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.
Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.
It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.
Well, not really. I bought an XE in 2017 and absolutely loved it.
Jag did really well with their 2013-2019 marques.
The solution is to not get a Jag next time. Vote with your wallet and don't support companies that clearly hate you anyway.
I won't. I'll be emailing my dealership to tell them that this morning.
"Jag" seem to thing they'll be opening up a whole new market here, and so pissing off their existing base doesn't matter.
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
That's an expensive way to not achieve a lot. They must have run out of shorter range missiles.
Although, until it actually lands, you can't know whether "the mad fucker has actually done it - he's used a nuke..."
Probably some soiled undies whilst they were tracking it...
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
When the tanks have gone, the IFVs have gone, the artillery has gone, the troops have gone, the Black Sea Fleet has gone - what else has Putin got left to throw at Ukraine?
Kim Jong Un?
He's a big lad. Fired from a trebuchet he'd make quite an impact.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
Most cars are just about the same these days so branding is everything.
You need something distinctive. That’s what the first range of Minis did so well. It also helped the BMW really invested in plant Oxford. They also laid on cracking buffets
The new Mini was a marketing act of genius. A mix of old and new.
The story of it must be worth a book?
Although they took the "Mini" to the point where they are now the size of a small truck.
On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.
I guess they aren't remembered so well now, simply because they died a long time ago, but Robin Cook and Donald Dewar? Blair's first Foreign Secretary and the first First Minister of Scotland were seriously big beasts at that time and hugely influential. Mo Mowlam was also a big part of the Northern Ireland process.
Mo Mowlam wasn’t very popular inside New Labour though, she was completely cast aside.
Was I alone in thinking Mo Mowlam was rubbish? Her strategy appeared to be to pander to the extremists on either side - she massively strengthened the hand of the more, er, muscular strands of loyalism and republicanism and sidelined the pragmatists.
A peace process built on getting the UUP and SDLP around a table wouldn't have been a peace process.
With the benefit of hindsight that looks an amazing ad.
Was it well received at the time. I barely remember it but was 19 at the time so spent my time not watching TV but going out and getting pissed with chums.
It was the most expensive ad ever made and no one understood it and few had heard of Apple. I was also getting pissed with chums I just happened to have been shooting a poster for Greenall at the studio next door and I was friends with the first assistant on the Ridley shoot so he asked me in to watch.
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
That's an expensive way to not achieve a lot. They must have run out of shorter range missiles.
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
That's an expensive way to not achieve a lot. They must have run out of shorter range missiles.
Surely it's a not so coded message: this is a conventionally armed ICBM this time, but...
Yes I did think of that too, but doing this just makes the nuke threat even more empty.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVID, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
The Tories presenting themselves as fiscal hawks is going to require a serious makeover from the last government but there are going to be shed loads of votes in doing so as the consequences of this stupidity become apparent. Higher interest rates, lower growth, a decline in Sterling resulting in imported inflation and a steady rise in unemployment. We are in serious trouble.
I expect this government to be at least as unpopular as Harold Wilson's in 1967-69. I'd expect them to suffer their worst London Borough results since 1968, in 2026, lose the Sennedd, and have a run of horrible by-elections.
But, Wilson very nearly came back to win, in 1970. And, he might well have won, had he waited longer.
It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVID, second highest on record after October 2020.
£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
The Tories presenting themselves as fiscal hawks is going to require a serious makeover from the last government but there are going to be shed loads of votes in doing so as the consequences of this stupidity become apparent. Higher interest rates, lower growth, a decline in Sterling resulting in imported inflation and a steady rise in unemployment. We are in serious trouble.
Very likely but looking on the bright side:
Higher interest rates are good for savers. Lower sterling is good for both exporters and I think DC pensions.
The next round of public pay settlements are going to be difficult though.
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.
They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.
What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
If the cars are amazing, then it might work. A high risk punt by them.
When did JLR last make a jag that was amazing ? The eighties.
The one that Morse used to drive.
The old jaguar was also the go,to car for the villains in the sweeney. Always getting smashed up after a car chase after a blagging with Regan shouting ‘shut it you slags’
A pal went to see it in Glasgow and said it was excellent (slightly to my surprise). He said all the performances were good but John Thomson was the standout.
Since it's Jags morning, trying to rebrand a shagged out old marque is like making love to a beautiful woman, be very careful if trying something a bit out of the ordinary.
Comments
Horrendous
You can see why those anonymous “senior Labour figures” in the FT are “resigned to this being a one-term government”
When tariffs raise the after-tax price of imported goods, demand for the imported goods falls. Lower demand for foreign goods means lower demand for foreign currencies, making the US dollar stronger as a result.
A high risk punt by them.
It's anecdata, however watching "reaction" videos by Usonians to UK advertising running at the time of their youth is quite interesting. The idea of "brand promotion" type advertising is unusual, as is the sideways/subtle communication or brand reinforcement - remember Silk Cut back in the day, or even something as everyday as Walnut Whips, or more off the wall such as You've Been Tangoed.
Here are a couple of examples from a channel called "King Boomer", who is roughly PB core demographic - middle aged, bloke, "I'm just a muppet with a beard".
Irn Bru gets you through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4oBHbkcBBI
Tango Advert Collection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJwftuTHzJY
"Most Effective" eg St John's ambulance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W2vKC4-EiE
Look how well BMW did with the rebadged Mini. Union Jack tail lights. Etc
(Edit) I see you have.
The ad doesn't appear to be particularly effective, then. 😏
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=1984+ad+by+ridley+scott#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:57041d62,vid:VtvjbmoDx-I,st:0
She may not be a Prescott but she has an authenticity and genuinely interesting background that few politicians do nowadays. The same with Bridget Phillipson.
I know the Tories aren’t looking to connect with that kind of voter based on comments the other day which is fine but to actively repel voters and say you don’t want them strikes me as exactly where Labour went wrong in 2019.
I think SKS is in a lot of trouble and is edging towards being a one term PM but these kinds of attitudes make me question if the Tories are actually interested in winning or instead just shouting at the electorate.
Jaguar is currently Facebook and is making a play to be Insta or Tiktok.
Reeves is dead as a dodo but will likely survive as Chancellor.
They must be panicking in Labour HQ by now. The polling is terrible and now the economic data is trickling in and it’s scarily bad
With the benefit of hindsight that looks an amazing ad.
Was it well received at the time. I barely remember it but was 19 at the time so spent my time not watching TV but going out and getting pissed with chums.
At least this one has everyone watching to see where the eff they go from here.
Probably their most talked about ad for a decade at least.
Margaret Beckett traced back to the Callaghan years and is 81. Of the big names, I don't recall any others as being from an earlier political generation than Blair and Brown. Maybe in fringe positions...
And much of this forum is totally of the view the government will surely collapse any day. It isn’t going to and Starmer isn’t going anywhere.
But is Starmer doing well. No.
Is Starmer doing terribly. Also no.
Nothing like Orange, that comparison is laughable.
I am interested to see what the new Jags are going to look like.
On the new branding, dunno. The XJ/XF shape and badge were radical departures from the classic shape Jaguar used from the 1960s onwards. The trouble now is there do not seem to be any cars.
Do I personally think he’s doing as terribly as that, no I don’t.
I know you and I agree on virtually nothing other than maybe HS2 and Cameron actually being a decent PM but I think even you don’t really think SKS’s position is unrecoverable.
Quite a while back, and when she was relatively unknown, I did say to keep an eye on Phillipson but you dismissed it at the time so I assume you have changed your mind
I would add Starmer is unlikely to be replaced before the next GE, and nobody has a clue as to the future of politics in this uncertain world
It is interesting Welsh labour are desperately seeking a deal with Plaid to get one extra vote for their budget, otherwise it will fail to pass the Senedd which in turn will be a crisis for them, and this before the 2026 Senedd elections
The Ukrainian Air Force confirmed that Russia struck the Ukrainian city of Dnipro with a conventionally armed ICBM this morning, marking the first combat use of an ICBM in history.
So he needs Reeves to do miracles with the UK economy. Four months in, does that look likely? What do the numbers say?
"Put yer knickers on and make me a cup of tea."
I personally think Starmer’s odds are better than many here expect. But I accept I am probably in a minority of one.
This forum at the moment is still getting over the fact the Tories have just left government. A lot of sensible perspective has really been lost in that process, much like what I lost around 2019. But after that I accepted what had happened and I moved on, I think few here have yet.
I see it every day with the people I follow on Twitter that oppose my views. “Starmer will have to resign”, “government about to collapse”. They have a majority of 160 something, like it or not they’ve got five years to do something.
To call them dead now when we’ve had this story of SKS being the worst leader in the world at least five times since 2020 strikes me as incredibly naive.
As I said, do I think SKS is doing well, no I don’t. But do I think it is terminal, absolutely not.
The blown up helicopter from a Bond movie made a fair few appearance even in the timeless classic Dr Who story the Daemons.
Lightning in a bottle comes to mind.
We simply are spending far too much, borrowing and taxing too much, and seemingly refuse to accept this has to stop and everyone will be poorer
Couldn't be more generic and meaningless if it tried.
There was a guy on Twitter years back who wrote parodies of perfume ads. This looks like a bad one of that.
If I remember correctly, JLR did their own advertising in house at Spark44. Then they brought in Accenture - those famous creative types - to run the agency for them.
So there you have it. It's a paint-by-numbers ad made by accountants, consultants, and other first-class ticket holders on Golgafrincham Ark B.
It's what people who've never seen a good ad in their lives think a good ad looks like.
I don't have a problem with the diversity angle, men who wear dresses and carry giant sledgehammers buy cars, too. Presumably. I'm just not sure that's going to play well with Jag's current customer base.
I've no idea how this ad made it past the focus group stage. I have worked at companies where marketing directors try to push through their vision of what a brand should be because they want to make *their* mark. But they are always stopped in their tracks when focus groups point out the rebrand is going to be a car crash.
How this one made it through testing I've no idea. Desperate last roll of the dice from a company that's going under? Egomaniac CMO with the ability to overrule testing and all available evidence? Bad or botched research done in house?
It's a case study they'll be learning about in ad school for years, that's for sure.
So no, there is no economic miracle riding to the rescue.
Just the IMF.
https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/an-evening-with-the-fast-show-tickets/artist/5444124
"Four months" = LOL. Labour has a huge majority and the Starmer gamble is very obviously that he'll take pain now in order to hand out sweeties in 2028. I'm not convinced it'll work or that he has the chops to deal with the pain without fatal damage. But I do know that expecting to see it in lagging indicators four months after an election is economically illiterate madness.
The story of it must be worth a book?
"Jag" seem to thing they'll be opening up a whole new market here, and so pissing off their existing base doesn't matter.
Chortle. They are so so wrong.
Probably some soiled undies whilst they were tracking it...
He's a big lad. Fired from a trebuchet he'd make quite an impact.
But, Wilson very nearly came back to win, in 1970. And, he might well have won, had he waited longer.
Higher interest rates are good for savers.
Lower sterling is good for both exporters and I think DC pensions.
The next round of public pay settlements are going to be difficult though.
Since it's Jags morning, trying to rebrand a shagged out old marque is like making love to a beautiful woman, be very careful if trying something a bit out of the ordinary.