Farewell to a true working class legend – politicalbetting.com

System · November 21

Farewell to a true working class legend – politicalbetting.com

2001. Labour Manifesto Launch. Deputy PM John Prescott is hit by an egg after encountering pro-fox-hunting protesters in Rhyl. He responds with a left jab. Prescott later tells Blair 'well you asked me to go out and connect with the electorate'.RIP JP ??? pic.twitter.com/UUGSVz4S6i

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Cookie · November 21

Also believed to have decked Danbert Nobacon out og Chumbawamba aftet he threw a bucket of water over him.
As he reputedly subsequently remarked: "I knocked him down - and he didn't get uo again."

StillWaters · November 21

FPT @Malmesbury

Malmesbury said:
s
WhisperingOracle said:

Sean_F said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Leon said:

PoodleInASlipstream said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I think its time for realpolitik. Ukraine cannot defeat Russia. A wider war where its chunks of Nato + Ukraine vs Russia could defeat Russia, but it seems very likely that Putin would push the button with his back against the wall.
Ukraine doesn't have to defeat Russia, it just has to hold on militarily until the Russian economy collapses. No country can sustain spending 40%+ of GDP on war, particularly not one under severe sanctions and with deep-seated economic issues even in peacetime.

The first signs are there now. Food prices jumping because farms cannot get labour or parts for the machines. An ever increasing percentage of the food that is grown never makes it to market because the railways have the same issues; no people, no spares, no new equipment. This is why Ukraine is expending so many of their drones hitting Russia's fuel infrastructure. Fuel shortages will dramatically these problems.

Right now Russia is Germany in late 1917. Still functioning, still with a powerful army in the field, but with the economic and logistical situation in terminal decline. The Germans knew for some time the Royal Navy's blockade of the North Sea would evidentially strangle them, hence the do-or-die gamble of throwing the entire High Seas fleet at the RN in 1916.

I remember many, many years ago reading an article written by a foreign journalist who was stationed in Berlin during the last months of the war. He went for a walk one day and recounted how all the restaurants he passed were closed, except one. He went in and looked at the menu, which contained only one meat dish; boiled crow.

Russia is at the very most a year and a half away from boiled crow.
But the analogy is entirely wrong

Why? Because Russia has China to help. The biggest trading and manufacturing economy on the planet, right next door, and perhaps the single BIGGEST economy in the world (depending on GDP PPP arguments etc)

China also has vast reserves of manpower and can chivvy tributary states into assisting Putin. NB North Korea suddenly coming up with 100,000 soldiers, what a coincidence

This changes the equation entirely. Xi Jinping has made it clear he won't let Russia lose or Putin fall. That's it. To borrow your allegory it's like Germany in World War 1 having the USA on its side, rather than opposing, only this time America is right next door to Berlin and Britain cannot blockade any of their trade
I agree with most of this. As I mentioned a few days ago, Hitler was not a nuclear dictator supported by another nuclear-armed dictator.

We need to think very carefully indeed, in this situation, before reaching for what can sometimes be tempting but ahistorical analogies.
But, if one is a nuclear-armed power, one absolutely cannot give way to threats from another nuclear-armed power. Otherwise, deterrence collapses.
What worries me is that we don't seem to be functioning within a predictable framework of deterrence , as in the Cold War, though, when roomfulls of strategists on bith sides constantly sought to review it and update it for decades.

I doubt very much that a Soviet Prsident would have ordered a full invasion of Ukraine had it come under Western influence after World War Ii, for instance, or that the West would have provided the wherewithal for Ukraine to fire into Russia in response, for instance. What is precisely most worrying me is that the ratio of unpredictable anarchy to strategy of deterrence seems to be on the rise.
Under Cold War rules, Eastern Europe was
in the Soviet zone of influence. Any kind of
mucking around across the Iron Curtain
would have been a breach of the unwritten rules. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union,
proper.

Which is part of what upsets Putin so badly.
Eastern Europe isn’t supposed to have
agency. They are supposed (in his mind) to
give fealty to Russia.

I disagree

You need to remember that Putin was a key part of the super successful Dresden cell of the KGB.

It isn’t part of what upsets Putin so badly.

It’s entirely what upsets Putin. His mindset was fixed when he was the part of mother Russia that was functioning against the odds to disrupt the West and secure control of the DDR. The fact that he has not got back to that high point means his career is a personal failure.

MattW · November 21

Third, I think.

Nigelb · November 21

Cookie said:
Also believed to have decked Danbert Nobacon out og Chumbawamba aftet he threw a bucket of water over him.
As he reputedly subsequently remarked: "I knocked him down - and he didn't get uo again."

Nice gag, but not true, I think.
The ice bucket bit is, of course.

OnlyLivingBoy · November 21

RIP John Prescott, Labour legend.

Jonathan · November 21

Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.

MaxPB · November 21

One of the few Labour politicians I respected and I think one of the few politicians of any party whose reputation has only increased since being out of power. He stood for proper Labour values and even if I disagree with most of them I really respected that he put himself out there in public and often in the face of ridicule for being old fashioned.

Starmer's Labour could do with someone like him at the top table to connect them to working class voters before they all disappear to Reform.

MarqueeMark · November 21

Stephen Colbert on THAT ad:

"Okay.......

Does Jaguar sell Ketamine now?"

MaxPB · November 21

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.

Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.

Jonathan · November 21

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.

She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.

MattW · November 21

Politically JP has some achievements, but to my eye had a strange love of bling/status and somewhat ridiculous acquired involvement with croquet which hit the media and may have been exaggerated. Plus the whole episode around sex with his diary secretary, which would now have him up for dismissal regardless of appeasing the Trades Unions, shows how times have - to some degree - changed.

But I hope to see a political appreciation. But RIP - it's always a loss.

He did do quite significant things in the Planning System and Online Service delivery when at the ODPM, especially around online delivery of services, housing density targets and other aspects. I was in a Local Authority running the outward facing IT services for a District Council at the time, and the list of 680 or so "services" we were required to be deliver online seemingly almost instantly was a bloody tsunami. Especially as it involved some re-engineering of some of them.

I think Angela Rayner has some lessons to learn from it, about bulldozing straight through, and realising that at this time the Cons are an irrelevatn distraction from what she needs to put in place.

St Peter, if he's not letting him in, had better have his mouth guard in. But he'll be ready - when JC was arrested St Peter was the one who cut off the High Priest's Servant's Ear, with a sword he happened to have about his person.

Jonathan · November 21

MarqueeMark said:
Stephen Colbert on THAT ad:

"Okay.......

Does Jaguar sell Ketamine now?"

At least two jags Prescott didn’t get to see it!

Morris_Dancer · November 21

Mr. Jonathan, must've missed Prescott calling the Conservatives scum and refusing to apologise until it was finally dragged out of him. Mind you, I paid less attention to politics then.

Nigelb · November 21

FPT

Foxy said:

Nigelb said:
This is one if the things which makes me think it might get critical mass.

Like ‘old Twitter’: The scientific community finds a new home on Bluesky
After recent changes to Elon Musk’s X, a gradual migration turns into a stampede
https://www.science.org/content/article/old-twitter-scientific-community-finds-new-home-bluesky
Yes, Bluesky is the first twitter alternative that actually works, and as the Xodus continues it gets better each week. There is far more interesting comment and much more civil.

Politicians and journalists may seek balance, but in many topics such as health and science there is no need. We don't need to balance science with anti-science, and for most of us Social Media is a social space not a job. Just as in real life we are not forced to have conversations with ranting bigots, we shouldn't be forced to online.

And if course it's not just liberals who follow science. If the non political stuff migrates, it will bring politics with it.
As interesting stuff leaves Twitter, the reasons to stay there decrease. And Musk has had his greatest benefit from it now. He might lose interest over the next couple of years.
It's still effectively a personal PR agency for him, but now subject, I think, to diminishing returns ?

Nigelb · November 21

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.

People were equally dismissive of Prescott while in government (me included). Time will tell.

Jonathan · November 21

Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Jonathan, must've missed Prescott calling the Conservatives scum and refusing to apologise until it was finally dragged out of him. Mind you, I paid less attention to politics then.

Not a fan of the Conservatives I believe and was known to share his views from time to time.

noneoftheabove · November 21

Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Jonathan, must've missed Prescott calling the Conservatives scum and refusing to apologise until it was finally dragged out of him. Mind you, I paid less attention to politics then.

Perhaps you just misread "a lot like" as "had said identical things". These things happen from time to time.

RochdalePioneers · November 21

Met the guy in the run up to the 2015 GE. He projected a Huge personality but was humble and self-effacing in real life.

Casino_Royale · November 21

It's sad news. He didn't achieve much other than buttress the New Labour coalition, which was arguably an achievement in itself, and will be remember for Two Jags, that Left-Hook and that slightly odd affair with his secretary.

Morris_Dancer · November 21

Mr. Above, deliberately describing political opponents as 'scum' is not a thing that just happens, it's a choice, as is a repeated refusal to retract the comment.

It's deeply unpleasant, and we need less poison in politics rather than just pretending it's fine. The USA is a wonderful lesson in the dangers of polarisation and division in politics. Just as the Conservatives should've heeded the Corbyn lesson and shunned Johnson, so the political class and electorate should heed the lesson of the US and shun partisan zealotry.

MaxPB · November 21

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.

No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.

JosiasJessop · November 21

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.

She *thinks* she is like Prescott. I'm unsure she is.

RochdalePioneers · November 21

I'm a little confused by the PB Tory response to Reeves / Labour's ongoing travails. The new government are really struggling, and so many of their problems are ineptly self-imposed as they find exciting new ways to screw up.

I understand why that is giddymaking for some. But - and its a big but - that doesn't mean they are gone soon and you are back. Labour are trashing themselves over economic competence. The obvious winner is not a Conservative Party who trashed its own reputation for economic competence over a much longer period with repeated changes of people to keep the pain coming.

PB Tories may want to consider that massive plank sticking out of their own eyeball first...

MaxPB · November 21

RochdalePioneers said:
Met the guy in the run up to the 2015 GE. He projected a Huge personality but was humble and self-effacing in real life.

He passes the "would you have a pint with..." test with flying colours in a way that very few politicians do these days.

Casino_Royale · November 21

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.

I don't look down on her (this seems to be a defence she's cultivated to deflect criticism) I just don't much like her* and think she has a nasty side. She seems devoid of empathy.

I'm mildly sympathetic given she had a difficult upbringing, but that's no excuse.

[*She can also dance well, and dresses in a moderately interesting manner - so there's that too]

Jonathan · November 21

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.

Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.

RochdalePioneers · November 21

Casino_Royale said:
It's sad news. He didn't achieve much other than buttress the New Labour coalition, which was arguably an achievement in itself, and will be remember for Two Jags, that Left-Hook and that slightly odd affair with his secretary.

Internally in the Labour Party he was very very effective at bridging old and new. Outside that bubble? Was crap as a minister (and had his little empire taken away and dismembered pretty quickly). Had too many daft incidents and will be remembered mostly for one of them.

How many senior politicians - he was Deputy PM - can PUNCH a member of the public on live TV and become more popular for it?

MaxPB · November 21

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.

No, it's the truth of it. She connects Labour to the "won't work" class not the working class and that you don't realise it is why Labour are in such trouble. Prescott would never have got the two mixed up but currently Labour seems to not understand the difference because that's what Rayner is.

Jonathan · November 21

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.
No, it's the truth of it. She connects Labour to the "won't work" class not the working class and that you don't realise it is why Labour are in such trouble. Prescott would never have got the two mixed up but currently Labour seems to not understand the difference because that's what Rayner is.

QED

JosiasJessop · November 21

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.
No, it's the truth of it. She connects Labour to the "won't work" class not the working class and that you don't realise it is why Labour are in such trouble. Prescott would never have got the two mixed up but currently Labour seems to not understand the difference because that's what Rayner is.
QED

Why is he wrong?

Fishing · November 21

I did not work with Prescott directly as a civil servant but heard from some who did that he was unpleasant to work for - unpredictably rude, clueless and arrogant at the same time. He cocked up most of what he touched in government (regional assemblies anyone?). And he branded the Lords "an offence to democracy" and said he would never sit there until, obviously, he himself was offered a seat. At least he had some self-awareness though, unlike the current mob, refusing to let pictures of himself in his robes be made public - sort of like Gordon Brown suppressing photos of signing the Lisbon Treaty.

The one anecdote I can offer is seeing him every morning in the DETR cafeteria ordering a huge full English, despite taking afaik little or no exercise. So I'm slightly surprised he lasted till 86.

Any non-psychopath death is of course sad, though. RIP.

DavidL · November 21

John Prescott always seemed to me to be modelled on Boxer in Animal Farm. A useful tool in the hands of the more powerful and cynical, at least until his strength was gone.

Jonathan · November 21

JosiasJessop said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.
No, it's the truth of it. She connects Labour to the "won't work" class not the working class and that you don't realise it is why Labour are in such trouble. Prescott would never have got the two mixed up but currently Labour seems to not understand the difference because that's what Rayner is.
QED
Why is he wrong?

It’s an extraordinary misguided post. For a start, if you know anything about Rayner, she worked really hard, much more than most.

MattW · November 21

Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....

I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.

LostPassword · November 21

RochdalePioneers said:
I'm a little confused by the PB Tory response to Reeves / Labour's ongoing travails. The new government are really struggling, and so many of their problems are ineptly self-imposed as they find exciting new ways to screw up.

I understand why that is giddymaking for some. But - and its a big but - that doesn't mean they are gone soon and you are back. Labour are trashing themselves over economic competence. The obvious winner is not a Conservative Party who trashed its own reputation for economic competence over a much longer period with repeated changes of people to keep the pain coming.

PB Tories may want to consider that massive plank sticking out of their own eyeball first...

It's early days, and opinion polls aren't hugely reliable, but it certainly looks like the Tories are benefiting from Labour's struggles in government, after Reform had a pro-riot boost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#/media/File:Opinion_polling_graph_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_(post-2024).svg

This surprises me. I would have expected the Lib Dems to have done better for the reason you state.

Voters, eh? Fickle bunch aren't they.

MattW · November 21

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.

Reflecting on this further, how does this advertising style fit into the advertising landscape in the USA?

Is this campaign being run there, and is lifestyle image advertising like this unfamiliar, @rcs1000 ? How would it play with wealthy Republicans, for example?

(And good morning, everyone.)

boulay · November 21

…

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.

Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.

It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.

Casino_Royale · November 21

Fishing said:
I did not work with Prescott directly as a civil servant but heard from some who did that he was unpleasant to work for - unpredictably rude, clueless and arrogant at the same time. He cocked up most of what he touched in government (regional assemblies anyone?). And he branded the Lords "an offence to democracy" and said he would never sit there until, obviously, he himself was offered a seat. At least he had some self-awareness though, unlike the current mob, refusing to let pictures of himself in his robes be made public - sort of like Gordon Brown suppressing photos of signing the Lisbon Treaty.

The one anecdote I can offer is seeing him every morning in the DETR cafeteria ordering a huge full English, despite taking afaik little or no exercise. So I'm slightly surprised he lasted till 86.

Any non-psychopath death is of course sad, though. RIP.

Well, yes.

I also hope not to die at the hands of a psychopath.

JosiasJessop · November 21

Fishing said:
I did not work with Prescott directly as a civil servant but heard from some who did that he was unpleasant to work for - unpredictably rude, clueless and arrogant at the same time. He cocked up most of what he touched in government (regional assemblies anyone?). And he branded the Lords "an offence to democracy" and said he would never sit there until, obviously, he himself was offered a seat. At least he had some self-awareness though, unlike the current mob, refusing to let pictures of himself in his robes be made public - sort of like Gordon Brown suppressing photos of signing the Lisbon Treaty.

The one anecdote I can offer is seeing him every morning in the DETR cafeteria ordering a huge full English, despite taking afaik little or no exercise. So I'm slightly surprised he lasted till 86.

Any non-psychopath death is of course sad, though. RIP.

As an aside, I always saw the Proclaimers' song "In Recognition" as being, in part, about Prescott.

"In recognition of your service to the working class
In recognition of your party loyalty
You get an ermine robe and you declare when you are probed
You only took it so the missus would be pleased"

A great song, btw,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL8-S9yeToA

Big_G_NorthWales · November 21

RochdalePioneers said:
I'm a little confused by the PB Tory response to Reeves / Labour's ongoing travails. The new government are really struggling, and so many of their problems are ineptly self-imposed as they find exciting new ways to screw up.

I understand why that is giddymaking for some. But - and its a big but - that doesn't mean they are gone soon and you are back. Labour are trashing themselves over economic competence. The obvious winner is not a Conservative Party who trashed its own reputation for economic competence over a much longer period with repeated changes of people to keep the pain coming.

PB Tories may want to consider that massive plank sticking out of their own eyeball first...

Good morning

How did the conservatives do in North East Scotland recently ?

And of course Kemi and the conservatives will take on labour and do not forget Kemi resigned from Johnson's government over Pitcher

And it is 4 plus years to the next election but you may have missed the point the conservatives are HM Opposition and will act as such

Peter_the_Punter · November 21

On topic, it should be noted that it was quite a well-educated left jab. He must have boxed at one time.

Respect.

Casino_Royale · November 21

MattW said:

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Reflecting on this further, how does this advertising style fit into the advertising landscape in the USA?

Is this campaign being run there, and is lifestyle image advertising like this unfamiliar, @rcs1000 ? How would it play with wealthy Republicans, for example?

(And good morning, everyone.)

It's a risky strategy. Given its Peak Woke vibes it doesn't bode well for the Trump administration being sympathetic to leniency on tarrifs for it, or other British car manufacturers.

This strikes me as the usual globalist executive clique making EDI decisions based on their "values" and the desire to "celebrate diversity", and being a bit embarrassed by its British heritage and tradition.

I bet not a single one challenged it in the room.

bigjohnowls · November 21

RIP John Prescott a very rare beast, an authentic Politician.

JosiasJessop · November 21

Jonathan said:

JosiasJessop said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.
No, it's the truth of it. She connects Labour to the "won't work" class not the working class and that you don't realise it is why Labour are in such trouble. Prescott would never have got the two mixed up but currently Labour seems to not understand the difference because that's what Rayner is.
QED
Why is he wrong?
It’s an extraordinary misguided post. For a start, if you know anything about Rayner, she worked really hard, much more than most.

Citation required.

DavidL · November 21

Well on the plus side Putin didn't feel the need to retaliate overnight to British missiles hitting targets in Russia. Which is something, I suppose.

squareroot2 · November 21

Fishing said:
I did not work with Prescott directly as a civil servant but heard from some who did that he was unpleasant to work for - unpredictably rude, clueless and arrogant at the same time. He cocked up most of what he touched in government (regional assemblies anyone?). And he branded the Lords "an offence to democracy" and said he would never sit there until, obviously, he himself was offered a seat. At least he had some self-awareness though, unlike the current mob, refusing to let pictures of himself in his robes be made public - sort of like Gordon Brown suppressing photos of signing the Lisbon Treaty.

The one anecdote I can offer is seeing him every morning in the DETR cafeteria ordering a huge full English, despite taking afaik little or no exercise. So I'm slightly surprised he lasted till 86.

Any non-psychopath death is of course sad, though. RIP.

Terrible example of how not to be a politician.

Taz · November 21

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.

Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.

Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.

It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.

squareroot2 · November 21

Prescott did sweet afa for tge working class. He kept the left quiet and allowed Blair to do what he liked. If that's helping the working class. ...

He was a promiscuous bully.

Taz · November 21

Casino_Royale said:

MattW said:

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Reflecting on this further, how does this advertising style fit into the advertising landscape in the USA?

Is this campaign being run there, and is lifestyle image advertising like this unfamiliar, @rcs1000 ? How would it play with wealthy Republicans, for example?

(And good morning, everyone.)
It's a risky strategy. Given its Peak Woke vibes it doesn't bode well for the Trump administration being sympathetic to leniency on tarrifs for it, or other British car manufacturers.

This strikes me as the usual globalist executive clique making EDI decisions based on their "values" and the desire to "celebrate diversity", and being a bit embarrassed by its British heritage and tradition.

I bet not a single one challenged it in the room.

Well here you go

https://x.com/jacquesmaree73/status/1859139835732046258?s=61

Jonathan · November 21

JosiasJessop said:

Jonathan said:

JosiasJessop said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
Today’s Tories really remind me of the Harris campaign. Today chavs, tomorrow you’ll be calling people that like Rayner the deplorables.
No, it's the truth of it. She connects Labour to the "won't work" class not the working class and that you don't realise it is why Labour are in such trouble. Prescott would never have got the two mixed up but currently Labour seems to not understand the difference because that's what Rayner is.
QED
Why is he wrong?
It’s an extraordinary misguided post. For a start, if you know anything about Rayner, she worked really hard, much more than most.
Citation required.

DYOR, but a good intro…

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/leading/id1665265193

LostPassword · November 21

DavidL said:
Well on the plus side Putin didn't feel the need to retaliate overnight to British missiles hitting targets in Russia. Which is something, I suppose.

It's perhaps a bit premature to declare Putin all talk and no trousers, again, but the supposed threat of a major missile attack that led to the closure of the US embassy came to nothing, unless it was connected to the first use by Russia of an ICBM.

The use of an ICBM is very notable in lots of ways. I wonder what motivated it?

Eabhal · November 21

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I'm a little confused by the PB Tory response to Reeves / Labour's ongoing travails. The new government are really struggling, and so many of their problems are ineptly self-imposed as they find exciting new ways to screw up.

I understand why that is giddymaking for some. But - and its a big but - that doesn't mean they are gone soon and you are back. Labour are trashing themselves over economic competence. The obvious winner is not a Conservative Party who trashed its own reputation for economic competence over a much longer period with repeated changes of people to keep the pain coming.

PB Tories may want to consider that massive plank sticking out of their own eyeball first...
Good morning

How did the conservatives do in North East Scotland recently ?

And of course Kemi and the conservatives will take on labour and do not forget Kemi resigned from Johnson's government over Pitcher

And it is 4 plus years to the next election but you may have missed the point the conservatives are HM Opposition and will act as such

How did the Conservatives do across the whole of the UK in the last General election?

Trying to wind up RP over the result in his area is unfair. It's traditionally a SNP/Conservative two-way race, and it's not like the SNP are at the height of their powers at the moment. Were Central Buchan in England, it would have Tory vote shares similar to those in Lincolnshire, so RP standing as a Lib Dem is admirable but futile.

The big story was how the votes moved around. Very little movement from Reform to Tory, but plenty from LD to Tory. There is the lesson, and why the Badenoch strategy could keep the posh Shires in England Lib Dem at the next election.

Leon · November 21

boulay said:
…
MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.

It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.

The ad is catastrophic. Awkward, strange, inane, cringe

It’s not even interestingly NEW and DARING. It’s like they asked GPT3.5/Sora to “make an absurdly Woke ad for a car like it’s still 2019”

The ad is instantly dated. Calamitous

Scott_xP · November 21

LostPassword said:

DavidL said:
Well on the plus side Putin didn't feel the need to retaliate overnight to British missiles hitting targets in Russia. Which is something, I suppose.
It's perhaps a bit premature to declare Putin all talk and no trousers, again, but the supposed threat of a major missile attack that led to the closure of the US embassy came to nothing, unless it was connected to the first use by Russia of an ICBM.

The use of an ICBM is very notable in lots of ways. I wonder what motivated it?

Maybe he saw the Jag ad and wanted to check they could still hit Coventry

DavidL · November 21

Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.

DavidL · November 21

LostPassword said:

DavidL said:
Well on the plus side Putin didn't feel the need to retaliate overnight to British missiles hitting targets in Russia. Which is something, I suppose.
It's perhaps a bit premature to declare Putin all talk and no trousers, again, but the supposed threat of a major missile attack that led to the closure of the US embassy came to nothing, unless it was connected to the first use by Russia of an ICBM.

The use of an ICBM is very notable in lots of ways. I wonder what motivated it?

My guess would be rapidly diminishing stocks of conventional weapons but that is maybe just my natural optimism shining through!

Leon · November 21

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.

Yes. Horrifying

We are watching in real time as a totally inept, clueless government drives a large economy into a very large wall

Its like Truss but very slowed down, and therefore worse, in a way - because we all have plenty of time to look on in despair and cry out “don’t do that” - but it has no effect. Deaf and stupid, they proceed

Stereodog · November 21

squareroot2 said:

Fishing said:
I did not work with Prescott directly as a civil servant but heard from some who did that he was unpleasant to work for - unpredictably rude, clueless and arrogant at the same time. He cocked up most of what he touched in government (regional assemblies anyone?). And he branded the Lords "an offence to democracy" and said he would never sit there until, obviously, he himself was offered a seat. At least he had some self-awareness though, unlike the current mob, refusing to let pictures of himself in his robes be made public - sort of like Gordon Brown suppressing photos of signing the Lisbon Treaty.

The one anecdote I can offer is seeing him every morning in the DETR cafeteria ordering a huge full English, despite taking afaik little or no exercise. So I'm slightly surprised he lasted till 86.

Any non-psychopath death is of course sad, though. RIP.
Terrible example of how not to be a politician.

He once sent a love letter to a girl who returned it with the spelling and grammar corrected. An experience like that might help explain if not excuse his chippiness.

TOPPING · November 21

Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.

Pulpstar · November 21

Leon said:

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
Yes. Horrifying

We are watching in real time as a totally inept, clueless government drives a large economy into a very large wall

Its like Truss but very slowed down, and therefore worse, in a way - because we all have plenty of time to look on in despair and cry out “don’t do that” - but it has no effect. Deaf and stupid, they proceed

The conservatives got rid of Truss in a month though and replaced with Hunt who, though not everyone's cup of tea knew what he was doing and had the confidence of the gilt markets.

OnlyLivingBoy · November 21

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.

"The chav class, you might say I'm looking down..." Wow. Rayner was dealt a tough hand by life and worked incredibly hard to get where she is now. The level of ignorance and entitlement in this post is quite special.

DavidL · November 21

Stereodog said:

squareroot2 said:

Fishing said:
I did not work with Prescott directly as a civil servant but heard from some who did that he was unpleasant to work for - unpredictably rude, clueless and arrogant at the same time. He cocked up most of what he touched in government (regional assemblies anyone?). And he branded the Lords "an offence to democracy" and said he would never sit there until, obviously, he himself was offered a seat. At least he had some self-awareness though, unlike the current mob, refusing to let pictures of himself in his robes be made public - sort of like Gordon Brown suppressing photos of signing the Lisbon Treaty.

The one anecdote I can offer is seeing him every morning in the DETR cafeteria ordering a huge full English, despite taking afaik little or no exercise. So I'm slightly surprised he lasted till 86.

Any non-psychopath death is of course sad, though. RIP.
Terrible example of how not to be a politician.
He once sent a love letter to a girl who returned it with the spelling and grammar corrected. An experience like that might help explain if not excuse his chippiness.

When my mum started going out with my dad his ex was still hanging around and she wrote him a love letter that my mum found. The spelling and grammar was inexecrable and gave my mum great comfort that he would never be settling for that. And she was right.

Taz · November 21

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.

Well,worth a listen to Liam Halligan on Times radio with Andrew Neil.

His view is this is 1975 not 1997

Casino_Royale · November 21

Taz said:

Casino_Royale said:

MattW said:

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Reflecting on this further, how does this advertising style fit into the advertising landscape in the USA?

Is this campaign being run there, and is lifestyle image advertising like this unfamiliar, @rcs1000 ? How would it play with wealthy Republicans, for example?

(And good morning, everyone.)
It's a risky strategy. Given its Peak Woke vibes it doesn't bode well for the Trump administration being sympathetic to leniency on tarrifs for it, or other British car manufacturers.

This strikes me as the usual globalist executive clique making EDI decisions based on their "values" and the desire to "celebrate diversity", and being a bit embarrassed by its British heritage and tradition.

I bet not a single one challenged it in the room.
Well here you go

https://x.com/jacquesmaree73/status/1859139835732046258?s=61

Oh FFS. Every fucking cliche in the book.

What a braindead sheepy twat.

[the brand guy, not you]

Big_G_NorthWales · November 21

Eabhal said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I'm a little confused by the PB Tory response to Reeves / Labour's ongoing travails. The new government are really struggling, and so many of their problems are ineptly self-imposed as they find exciting new ways to screw up.

I understand why that is giddymaking for some. But - and its a big but - that doesn't mean they are gone soon and you are back. Labour are trashing themselves over economic competence. The obvious winner is not a Conservative Party who trashed its own reputation for economic competence over a much longer period with repeated changes of people to keep the pain coming.

PB Tories may want to consider that massive plank sticking out of their own eyeball first...
Good morning

How did the conservatives do in North East Scotland recently ?

And of course Kemi and the conservatives will take on labour and do not forget Kemi resigned from Johnson's government over Pitcher

And it is 4 plus years to the next election but you may have missed the point the conservatives are HM Opposition and will act as such
How did the Conservatives do across the whole of the UK in the last General election?

Trying to wind up RP over the result in his area is unfair. It's traditionally a SNP/Conservative two-way race, and it's not like the SNP are at the height of their powers at the moment. Were Central Buchan in England, it would have Tory vote shares similar to those in Lincolnshire, so RP standing as a Lib Dem is admirable but futile.

The big story was how the votes moved around. Very little movement from Reform to Tory, but plenty from LD to Tory. There is the lesson, and why the Badenoch strategy could keep the posh Shires in England Lib Dem at the next election.

We have no idea how the next election will pan out but we have had the election, labour despite a huge majority are having a bad time, and the conservatives have a new leader with all to play for in a world that is increasingly unpredictable

Scott_xP · November 21

TOPPING said:
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.

Ah yes, Orange.

That fabulous brand, currently residing in the "where are they now" file

Exactly what Jaguar are aiming for

Oh, wait...

Casino_Royale · November 21

Leon said:

boulay said:
…
MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.

It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.
The ad is catastrophic. Awkward, strange, inane, cringe

It’s not even interestingly NEW and DARING. It’s like they asked GPT3.5/Sora to “make an absurdly Woke ad for a car like it’s still 2019”

The ad is instantly dated. Calamitous

Why the fuck is a Wokey progressive yank in charge of the branding for an iconic British car anyway?

There's no limit to the extent I want him, his philosophy and his ilk to fuck off.

DecrepiterJohnL · November 21

Peter_the_Punter said:
On topic, it should be noted that it was quite a well-educated left jab. He must have boxed at one time.

Respect.

Prescott had been an amateur boxer.

rottenborough · November 21

Looks like the sole bid to take over the Telegraph that appeared to match the price the current owners wanted is in trouble.

Could mean GB News guy gets a second shot.

Morris_Dancer · November 21

Mr. Royale, I'm guessing you're not a Veilguard fan.

JosiasJessop · November 21

DavidL said:

LostPassword said:

DavidL said:
Well on the plus side Putin didn't feel the need to retaliate overnight to British missiles hitting targets in Russia. Which is something, I suppose.
It's perhaps a bit premature to declare Putin all talk and no trousers, again, but the supposed threat of a major missile attack that led to the closure of the US embassy came to nothing, unless it was connected to the first use by Russia of an ICBM.

The use of an ICBM is very notable in lots of ways. I wonder what motivated it?
My guess would be rapidly diminishing stocks of conventional weapons but that is maybe just my natural optimism shining through!

There's a chart somewhere, showing the 'red lines' Putin has set threatening grave consequences, and what has happened after those 'red lines' were crossed. Whether it was providing Ukraine with any weapons, tanks, long-range weapons etc, time and time again they make these threats and nothing happens. I think there are ten or twelve distinct times Putin has drawn red lines than have been crossed, and there has been no obvious response.

That does not mean nothing will happen; but it does mean that the 'threats' have, so far, been empty. It's interesting to ask why,

But we also need to factor in what happens if we give in to the threats. In the short term it *may* make us safer. In the medium and long term, I think it'd be even more dangerous.

rottenborough · November 21

Scott_xP said:

LostPassword said:

DavidL said:
Well on the plus side Putin didn't feel the need to retaliate overnight to British missiles hitting targets in Russia. Which is something, I suppose.
It's perhaps a bit premature to declare Putin all talk and no trousers, again, but the supposed threat of a major missile attack that led to the closure of the US embassy came to nothing, unless it was connected to the first use by Russia of an ICBM.

The use of an ICBM is very notable in lots of ways. I wonder what motivated it?
Maybe he saw the Jag ad and wanted to check they could still hit Coventry

When a first glance read this I thought the 'he' here was John Prescott!!!

Big_G_NorthWales · November 21

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:
Prescott reminds us why Labour are not the US Dems. He’s exactly the sort of politician that Tories do not understand, but adds a bit of working class trade union punch to the movement. Rayner occupies a similar position today. There are more like them.
Rayner is nothing like Prescott. She's a complete lightweight in comparison.
She’s a lot like Prescott. Someone Tories just don’t get and look down on.
No, Prescott connected New Labour types with the working classes and provided a point of view that the likes of Mandy and Ali Campbell would never have understood. Rayner connects Starmer with the chav class, you might say I'm looking down but it's the reality of it and her inability to connect with working class people in the same way as Prescott is one of the reasons Labour are hemorrhaging votes to Reform among working class people.
"The chav class, you might say I'm looking down..." Wow. Rayner was dealt a tough hand by life and worked incredibly hard to get where she is now. The level of ignorance and entitlement in this post is quite special.

You may not expect this comment but Rayner has a real back story and is far better, especially at the dispatch box, than Starmer

Casino_Royale · November 21

Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Royale, I'm guessing you're not a Veilguard fan.

I own a Jaguar. And I was quite loyal to the brand.

I'm fuming.

I'm trying to work out who I can email about this today. Might start with my Jaguar dealer, not that it's their fault.

Roger · November 21

Jonathan said:

MarqueeMark said:
Stephen Colbert on THAT ad:

"Okay.......

Does Jaguar sell Ketamine now?"
At least two jags Prescott didn’t get to see it!

I love it. Don't you?

Taz · November 21

TOPPING said:
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.

There’s an element of truth to this post. Although the ad is far from fantastic. As he says, we don’t even see a car.

When I was there they were desperate to get away from Jags being the preserve of middle aged men with string backed gloves, flat caps and pipes. They wanted to go for a younger dynamic but never found a way.

Having a shit range of cars never helped

Gallowgate · November 21

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.

I am not sure what the alternative is. Every tax rise is met with tears

DavidL · November 21

Taz said:

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
Well,worth a listen to Liam Halligan on Times radio with Andrew Neil.

His view is this is 1975 not 1997

One thing is already certain. The story spun that the October budget reset the national finances for the Parliament and won't need a repeat next year has completely unravelled for anyone who can count.

TOPPING · November 21

Scott_xP said:

TOPPING said:
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
Ah yes, Orange.

That fabulous brand, currently residing in the "where are they now" file

Exactly what Jaguar are aiming for

Oh, wait...

For a europhile sometimes you do appear for all the world like a Little Englander.

Andy_JS · November 21

RIP John Prescott. Just heard the news.

MaxPB · November 21

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.

What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVID, second highest on record after October 2020.

£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.

Leon · November 21

TOPPING said:
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.

“Up to the moment”

As others have said on TwiX, to be really radical and surprising they should have gone over-the-top on the Tory Britishness. In the car we see a beautiful white heterosexual British couple, young and wealthy and posh, maybe he’s in a Barbour or tweeds, she’s half naked and absurdly sexy, with dead pheasants on the back seat, maybe a working class guy doffing his cap as they motor past

THAT would have been genuinely daring - also funny - and got everyone talking - often in outrage - while also subtly playing to Jaguar’s few remaining strengths

Pulpstar · November 21

Casino_Royale said:

Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Royale, I'm guessing you're not a Veilguard fan.
I own a Jaguar. And I was quite loyal to the brand.

I'm fuming.

I'm trying to work out who I can email about this today. Might start with my Jaguar dealer, not that it's their fault.

They must have thought Harris was going to win the election lol.

Casino_Royale · November 21

TOPPING said:
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.

So you think they deliberately wanted to alienate their loyal customer base and start a culture war against them, rather than innovate and take them with them?

Remind me how well that's worked out in the past?

This will finish the Brand.

DecrepiterJohnL · November 21

A double-decker bus had its roof ripped off by a roadside tree yesterday. Normally buses just brush through them.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/dagenham-bus-crash-roof-double-decker-hedgemans-road-tfl-police-b1195229.html

TOPPING · November 21

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

boulay said:
…
MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.

It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.
The ad is catastrophic. Awkward, strange, inane, cringe

It’s not even interestingly NEW and DARING. It’s like they asked GPT3.5/Sora to “make an absurdly Woke ad for a car like it’s still 2019”

The ad is instantly dated. Calamitous
Why the fuck is a Wokey progressive yank in charge of the branding for an iconic British car anyway?

There's no limit to the extent I want him, his philosophy and his ilk to fuck off.

Am I hearing that you now won't be buying a Jaguar in the near future.

boulay · November 21

Leon said:

boulay said:
…
MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Re your last paragraph, if a car isn’t aspirational and is at root a transformation device then you just buy a BYD electric vehicle - why spend another potential £70k on a jag which might be no better? The answer is the badge, the history and the emotions.

It’s the same for all the old marques - people buying Electric Mercedes, BMW and Audi intent necessarily buying a better car than Tesla - they are buying a brand and image. Jaguar has run away screaming from what made people buy them and are now going to have to make some seriously amazing cars to attract those who would pay less for a Chinese EV or who would otherwise buy German.
The ad is catastrophic. Awkward, strange, inane, cringe

It’s not even interestingly NEW and DARING. It’s like they asked GPT3.5/Sora to “make an absurdly Woke ad for a car like it’s still 2019”

The ad is instantly dated. Calamitous

You know you’ve messed up your brand when your biggest and most famous fan dies so that he can turn in his grave at what you have done.

Casino_Royale · November 21

Taz said:

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.

Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.

It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.

Well, not really. I bought an XE in 2017 and absolutely loved it.

Jag did really well with their 2013-2019 marques.

rottenborough · November 21

On John Prescott. First of the core New Labour figures the public will remember to head to the pearly gates. I guess he was a little older than the others.

Pulpstar · November 21

MaxPB said:

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVI, second highest on record after October 2020.

£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.

Could we have dollar parity by the time Starmer and Trump are done ?

rottenborough · November 21

Pulpstar said:

MaxPB said:

DavidL said:
Government borrowing up to £17.4bn last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx70djyg7o

It was driven higher by public pay settlements. These are truly terrifying figures. They would be bad in a deep recession but they are being incurred when the economy grew faster than expected in the first half of the year and was flat for Q3. We are in what passes for normal times and yet we are borrowing like we were funding a major war. The decisions by Reeves and Starmer to increase public spending yet further in the budget are increasingly looking dangerous rather than merely stupid.
What's most terrifying is that we borrowed more this October than in 2021 during COVI, second highest on record after October 2020.

£150bn in extra borrowing and lower growth. Labour are going to bankrupt the nation, I don't think my prediction of requiring an IMF bailout is far off the mark.
Could we have dollar parity by the time Starmer and Trump are done ?

The latter could well do far, far more damage than anything Reeves is up to.

DavidL · November 21

As a Jaguar owner I find the advert genuinely bewildering. Where are the cars?

I have to say that I have enjoyed my car which I have now driven for over 120k miles with no major problems. It is a bit of a bugger to park but truly excellent on motorways, has a good sound system and is very comfortable. But I am clearly not with the zeitgeist because I am still talking about a car, not a disco remake.

Theuniondivvie · November 21

I sense with Prescott’s death an intense spasm of Labour nostalgia for the days when they possessed at least some authentic working class credibility. I may be unable to see it from my distant pov but Rayner doesn’t really seem to cut it on that level, not least because she doesn’t really seem to have impinged on the public’s consciousness.

Perhaps she needs to punch someone.

Scott_xP · November 21

@cathynewman

I remember once when I was on the @FTX and he was Deputy Prime Minister he briefed me on something and - in the time-honoured tradition - attributed what he’d said to “friends of” John Prescott.

That night the FT news desk took a call from the man himself. He said: “I don’t know who these friends are but it’s a load of bollocks.” Classic Prescott.

Casino_Royale · November 21

Tip: sack anyone who talks about "EDI", "authentic selves" and "celebrating diversity".

MaxPB · November 21

Casino_Royale said:

Taz said:

MattW said:
Since Jags are still on topic, FPT:

Penddu2 said:
The Jaguar ad will get people talking - in the same way as Bud Light did in US....
I hope that Jag are doing some resilience work around Mr Chump's impending tariffs. AFAICs unlike their competitors, they do not have factories in the USA. That's where about 25-30% of their sales go.

I wasn't very kind about the ad - on aesthetic / style it feels to be following "United Colours of Benetton" or "FCUK" 2-3 decades later, and so is quite derivative. I may have missed something.

But for me the idea that a Jaguar is aspirational and worth investing emotion in is ridiculous on its face. A car is at root a transport appliance, nothing more. It needs to be safe, and comfortable, and may be nice to drive - none of that is worth obsessing about or wasting time for the expression of pride. I'm more emotional about my fridge.
Jaguar as a brand does command some loyalty and emotion. But it is nostalgia rather for anything they have done in the last 30 years.

Jaguar is a brand that trades on its name and it’s heritage, E-Type for example, but has made largely bland, generic, cars for many years. I worked on X100, X202, X350, X760 and X761 and the driving force behind all of them was not style or innovation, unlike some of the Range Rover range, but cost. Everything as cheap as possible. They were effectively rebadged Fords for a while too.

It is a shame Dura Ace no longer seems to hang out. I am sure he would have a lot. Ore to say on their cars.
Well, not really. I bought an XE in 2017 and absolutely loved it.

Jag did really well with their 2013-2019 marques.

The solution is to not get a Jag next time. Vote with your wallet and don't support companies that clearly hate you anyway.

Morris_Dancer · November 21

Meanwhile, in ridiculous news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy87202v43no

"Maurizio Cattelan's provocative artwork of a banana duct-taped to a wall has fetched $6.2m (£4.9m) at Sotheby's in New York - four times higher than pre-sale estimates."

rottenborough · November 21

Leon said:

TOPPING said:
Fantastic new jaguar ad. Outraged old white blokes who use string-backed driving gloves is exactly the reaction they wanted I'm guessing.

They are trying to reinvent the brand (think Orange, which everyone laughed at until they didn't) and are using up to the moment images and memes.

What the cars are going to be like goodness only knows.
“Up to the moment”

As others have said on TwiX, to be really radical and surprising they should have gone over-the-top on the Tory Britishness. In the car we see a beautiful white heterosexual British couple, young and wealthy and posh, maybe he’s in a Barbour or tweeds, she’s half naked and absurdly sexy, with dead pheasants on the back seat, maybe a working class guy doffing his cap as they motor past

THAT would have been genuinely daring - also funny - and got everyone talking - often in outrage - while also subtly playing to Jaguar’s few remaining strengths

Isn't their key market China these days?

Taz · November 21

Roger said:

Jonathan said:

MarqueeMark said:
Stephen Colbert on THAT ad:

"Okay.......

Does Jaguar sell Ketamine now?"
At least two jags Prescott didn’t get to see it!
I love it. Don't you?

A bloke in a frock with a hammer says to me buy an electric car for £100K.

LostPassword · November 21

Eabhal said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:
I'm a little confused by the PB Tory response to Reeves / Labour's ongoing travails. The new government are really struggling, and so many of their problems are ineptly self-imposed as they find exciting new ways to screw up.

I understand why that is giddymaking for some. But - and its a big but - that doesn't mean they are gone soon and you are back. Labour are trashing themselves over economic competence. The obvious winner is not a Conservative Party who trashed its own reputation for economic competence over a much longer period with repeated changes of people to keep the pain coming.

PB Tories may want to consider that massive plank sticking out of their own eyeball first...
Good morning

How did the conservatives do in North East Scotland recently ?

And of course Kemi and the conservatives will take on labour and do not forget Kemi resigned from Johnson's government over Pitcher

And it is 4 plus years to the next election but you may have missed the point the conservatives are HM Opposition and will act as such
How did the Conservatives do across the whole of the UK in the last General election?

Trying to wind up RP over the result in his area is unfair. It's traditionally a SNP/Conservative two-way race, and it's not like the SNP are at the height of their powers at the moment. Were Central Buchan in England, it would have Tory vote shares similar to those in Lincolnshire, so RP standing as a Lib Dem is admirable but futile.

The big story was how the votes moved around. Very little movement from Reform to Tory, but plenty from LD to Tory. There is the lesson, and why the Badenoch strategy could keep the posh Shires in England Lib Dem at the next election.

I don't think it's unfair to challenge RP with a dose of reality to consider against his wishful thinking. His assumption is that the present situation mirrors that of the post-1997 period, but it's really very different.

After 1997 the Tories didn't see a single poll lead until the September 2000 fuel protests, and after that brief period it took until July 2003 for the Tories to see another poll lead - after the Iraq War.

It took less than four months this time for the Tories to see a poll lead again.

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