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The Conservatives are the 1/10 favourites to win the next general election – politicalbetting.com

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  • Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Well, in the NHS strikes have stopped.
    There was a change of Government. Part of the reason for the strikes had gone away.
  • geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    It will simply concentrate more of the farmland in the hands of the big agri-businesses who aren't affected by the tax changes.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,914
    biggles said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Why do I get the feeling that for some people the w word will never end.

    Well you are the one banging on about it at the moment.
    I’m just trying to find a consensus. Very few have engaged so far, would you like to?
    I don’t think a consensus is truly possible because at the edges, at the extremes, there will always be those who want to keep pushing boundaries and those who think everything is PC gone mad.
    I’m not a fan of a lot of things. I had to do some mandatory training on safeguarding this week. On the gender question there were four options. Male, femail, transgender and queer. I have no idea what the last one even means.
    I don’t regard trans men as men or trans women as women. But I do respect them as people hope that they can find happiness in their lives as I hope everyone can. But I know some would be offended by what I have just written.
    Thanks for engaging. We don’t agree much I expect but I still think we can find common ground.

    Queer isn’t a gender, so that doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m sure there is a name for queer but it’s not gender.

    Anyway that aside, I think people are male or female in terms of sex and that will always be the case. But in terms of living, I think we agree they should be able to live freely?

    So in my view for sports you just have a trans category even a trans male and trans female category. They are banned from competing in events that aren’t for their sex.

    And same for bathrooms where possible, just have a trans male and trans female one.

    My question would be, what are trans men and trans women? If they are not men and women as we agree, perhaps they are just people
    Four different gender based lavatories?

    Is that enough?
    If you are willing to engage with me then I’m sure we can find consensus.

    Perhaps just an “other” bathroom would suffice?
    At what point does one graduate from "other" to one's respective male/female lavatories?

    Or does one remain an "other" in perpetuity? Like "whites only" drinking fountains from which you are permanently excluded.

    No desire to share photos of trans people, so I'll stick with relatively famous ones - Would you demand Laverne Cox, India Willoughby and Trace Lysette use the "other" loo in perpetuity? Or are they woman enough for you?

    Is having one's winkie cut off the "cut off point" so to speak, at which you are allowed into the gendered bathroom? What about those who have their winkies cut off, but whose faces never look feminine enough?
    More simply, who is going to police this?

    Isn't it simply better to prosecute lewd behaviour in public toilets and changing rooms whatever the gender of the offender?
    Checks Viz - the Bottom Inspectors, of course!

    But seriously, this is the exact point.

    There are already laws against lewd behaviour.

    There's also no magic forcefield around a gendered lavatory as far as I'm aware, as a man you can just walk into the women's loos and assault a woman if you are so inclined. You don't have to take HRT, become infertile, grow boobies, and have strangers laugh at you in the street, just for the chance to use the women's loos. You can just walk right in. Do we really think trans people are subjecting themselves to all of that, just to gain access to a marginally cleaner lavatory?
    I don’t think (most women’s) objection is that they think anyone is going to assault them. I think they just want to keep some spaces as (biological) women only in general.

    As above, in most public places you could remove the issue by going fully gender neutral plus separate blocks of urinals. Probably would need more cleaners mind.
    Again, to Foxy's point, how do you police that?

    If a trans woman looks female, how do you propose to stop her at the door? Doormen doing mandatory dna tests?

    Perhaps you could have someone taking everyone's pants down to check they don't have a winkie. But then you'd still be letting those pesky transes who've had the surgery through.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,569

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Well, in the NHS strikes have stopped.
    There was a change of Government. Part of the reason for the strikes had gone away.
    Exactly, the new government re-opened negotiations rather than continue the debilitating stand off.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Well, in the NHS strikes have stopped.
    There was a change of Government. Part of the reason for the strikes had gone away.
    Exactly, the new government re-opened negotiations rather than continue the debilitating stand off.
    LOL. No. Part of the reason for the strikes was purely political. To get rid of the Tory Government. Once that had happened that reason was gone. Having demanded 35% they settled for far less. Funny that.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,178

    Why do I get the feeling that for some people the w word will never end.

    Well you are the one banging on about it at the moment.
    I’m just trying to find a consensus. Very few have engaged so far, would you like to?
    I don’t think a consensus is truly possible because at the edges, at the extremes, there will always be those who want to keep pushing boundaries and those who think everything is PC gone mad.
    I’m not a fan of a lot of things. I had to do some mandatory training on safeguarding this week. On the gender question there were four options. Male, femail, transgender and queer. I have no idea what the last one even means.
    I don’t regard trans men as men or trans women as women. But I do respect them as people hope that they can find happiness in their lives as I hope everyone can. But I know some would be offended by what I have just written.
    Thanks for engaging. We don’t agree much I expect but I still think we can find common ground.

    Queer isn’t a gender, so that doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m sure there is a name for queer but it’s not gender.

    Anyway that aside, I think people are male or female in terms of sex and that will always be the case. But in terms of living, I think we agree they should be able to live freely?

    So in my view for sports you just have a trans category even a trans male and trans female category. They are banned from competing in events that aren’t for their sex.

    And same for bathrooms where possible, just have a trans male and trans female one.


    My question would be, what are trans men and trans women? If they are not men and women as we agree, perhaps they are just people
    You’ll have a capacity issue if you set aside specific bathrooms for trans men/women. There aren’t that many of them and in public spaces there isn’t enough provision of toilets anyway.

    You should probably go with male/female and a couple of unisex cubicles that can be used by anyone (in the way that disabled cubicles are unisex)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,569

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Well, in the NHS strikes have stopped.
    There was a change of Government. Part of the reason for the strikes had gone away.
    Exactly, the new government re-opened negotiations rather than continue the debilitating stand off.
    LOL. No. Part of the reason for the strikes was purely political. To get rid of the Tory Government. Once that had happened that reason was gone. Having demanded 35% they settled for far less. Funny that.
    The Scottish Juniors accepted a 12% rise well before the Westminster election.

    If the Tories had offered that, then it too would have probably been accepted.

    The strikes were not being directed by radical leaders, they were grass roots grievances, hence the 98% vote from the Juniors to strike.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,951
    edited November 16
    kyf_100 said:

    biggles said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Why do I get the feeling that for some people the w word will never end.

    Well you are the one banging on about it at the moment.
    I’m just trying to find a consensus. Very few have engaged so far, would you like to?
    I don’t think a consensus is truly possible because at the edges, at the extremes, there will always be those who want to keep pushing boundaries and those who think everything is PC gone mad.
    I’m not a fan of a lot of things. I had to do some mandatory training on safeguarding this week. On the gender question there were four options. Male, femail, transgender and queer. I have no idea what the last one even means.
    I don’t regard trans men as men or trans women as women. But I do respect them as people hope that they can find happiness in their lives as I hope everyone can. But I know some would be offended by what I have just written.
    Thanks for engaging. We don’t agree much I expect but I still think we can find common ground.

    Queer isn’t a gender, so that doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m sure there is a name for queer but it’s not gender.

    Anyway that aside, I think people are male or female in terms of sex and that will always be the case. But in terms of living, I think we agree they should be able to live freely?

    So in my view for sports you just have a trans category even a trans male and trans female category. They are banned from competing in events that aren’t for their sex.

    And same for bathrooms where possible, just have a trans male and trans female one.

    My question would be, what are trans men and trans women? If they are not men and women as we agree, perhaps they are just people
    Four different gender based lavatories?

    Is that enough?
    If you are willing to engage with me then I’m sure we can find consensus.

    Perhaps just an “other” bathroom would suffice?
    At what point does one graduate from "other" to one's respective male/female lavatories?

    Or does one remain an "other" in perpetuity? Like "whites only" drinking fountains from which you are permanently excluded.

    No desire to share photos of trans people, so I'll stick with relatively famous ones - Would you demand Laverne Cox, India Willoughby and Trace Lysette use the "other" loo in perpetuity? Or are they woman enough for you?

    Is having one's winkie cut off the "cut off point" so to speak, at which you are allowed into the gendered bathroom? What about those who have their winkies cut off, but whose faces never look feminine enough?
    More simply, who is going to police this?

    Isn't it simply better to prosecute lewd behaviour in public toilets and changing rooms whatever the gender of the offender?
    Checks Viz - the Bottom Inspectors, of course!

    But seriously, this is the exact point.

    There are already laws against lewd behaviour.

    There's also no magic forcefield around a gendered lavatory as far as I'm aware, as a man you can just walk into the women's loos and assault a woman if you are so inclined. You don't have to take HRT, become infertile, grow boobies, and have strangers laugh at you in the street, just for the chance to use the women's loos. You can just walk right in. Do we really think trans people are subjecting themselves to all of that, just to gain access to a marginally cleaner lavatory?
    I don’t think (most women’s) objection is that they think anyone is going to assault them. I think they just want to keep some spaces as (biological) women only in general.

    As above, in most public places you could remove the issue by going fully gender neutral plus separate blocks of urinals. Probably would need more cleaners mind.
    Again, to Foxy's point, how do you police that?

    If a trans woman looks female, how do you propose to stop her at the door? Doormen doing mandatory dna tests?

    Perhaps you could have someone taking everyone's pants down to check they don't have a winkie. But then you'd still be letting those pesky transes who've had the surgery through.
    Police what? I think you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m literally suggesting everyone have equal access to all of them.

    You stop talking about trans-issues in the context of loos by neutralising the whole thing. But I’d want some female opinions first. Not for me to make the rules for them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,569

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    I think that would just about qualify as "disruptive protest" 😉
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,996
    Off topic: Does the Loser know what happened after the 1930 House elections?
    "While the Democrats gained 52 seats in the 1930 midterm elections, Republicans retained a narrow one-seat majority of 218 seats after the polls closed versus the Democrats' 216 seats; however, during the 13 months between these elections and the end of the 72nd Congress,[4] 14 members-elect died (including incumbent Speaker Nicholas Longworth), and the Democrats gained an additional three seats in the special elections called to fill these vacancies, thus gaining control of the House (they held a 219–212 advantage over the Republicans when the new Congress convened)"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections

    Probably not.

    (Note that the Republicans won a large majority of the popular vote in 1930, even while losing control of the House. Few blacks voted in the South, and poor whites were less likely to vote in the South, than the rest of the nation.)
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,914
    biggles said:

    kyf_100 said:

    biggles said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Why do I get the feeling that for some people the w word will never end.

    Well you are the one banging on about it at the moment.
    I’m just trying to find a consensus. Very few have engaged so far, would you like to?
    I don’t think a consensus is truly possible because at the edges, at the extremes, there will always be those who want to keep pushing boundaries and those who think everything is PC gone mad.
    I’m not a fan of a lot of things. I had to do some mandatory training on safeguarding this week. On the gender question there were four options. Male, femail, transgender and queer. I have no idea what the last one even means.
    I don’t regard trans men as men or trans women as women. But I do respect them as people hope that they can find happiness in their lives as I hope everyone can. But I know some would be offended by what I have just written.
    Thanks for engaging. We don’t agree much I expect but I still think we can find common ground.

    Queer isn’t a gender, so that doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m sure there is a name for queer but it’s not gender.

    Anyway that aside, I think people are male or female in terms of sex and that will always be the case. But in terms of living, I think we agree they should be able to live freely?

    So in my view for sports you just have a trans category even a trans male and trans female category. They are banned from competing in events that aren’t for their sex.

    And same for bathrooms where possible, just have a trans male and trans female one.

    My question would be, what are trans men and trans women? If they are not men and women as we agree, perhaps they are just people
    Four different gender based lavatories?

    Is that enough?
    If you are willing to engage with me then I’m sure we can find consensus.

    Perhaps just an “other” bathroom would suffice?
    At what point does one graduate from "other" to one's respective male/female lavatories?

    Or does one remain an "other" in perpetuity? Like "whites only" drinking fountains from which you are permanently excluded.

    No desire to share photos of trans people, so I'll stick with relatively famous ones - Would you demand Laverne Cox, India Willoughby and Trace Lysette use the "other" loo in perpetuity? Or are they woman enough for you?

    Is having one's winkie cut off the "cut off point" so to speak, at which you are allowed into the gendered bathroom? What about those who have their winkies cut off, but whose faces never look feminine enough?
    More simply, who is going to police this?

    Isn't it simply better to prosecute lewd behaviour in public toilets and changing rooms whatever the gender of the offender?
    Checks Viz - the Bottom Inspectors, of course!

    But seriously, this is the exact point.

    There are already laws against lewd behaviour.

    There's also no magic forcefield around a gendered lavatory as far as I'm aware, as a man you can just walk into the women's loos and assault a woman if you are so inclined. You don't have to take HRT, become infertile, grow boobies, and have strangers laugh at you in the street, just for the chance to use the women's loos. You can just walk right in. Do we really think trans people are subjecting themselves to all of that, just to gain access to a marginally cleaner lavatory?
    I don’t think (most women’s) objection is that they think anyone is going to assault them. I think they just want to keep some spaces as (biological) women only in general.

    As above, in most public places you could remove the issue by going fully gender neutral plus separate blocks of urinals. Probably would need more cleaners mind.
    Again, to Foxy's point, how do you police that?

    If a trans woman looks female, how do you propose to stop her at the door? Doormen doing mandatory dna tests?

    Perhaps you could have someone taking everyone's pants down to check they don't have a winkie. But then you'd still be letting those pesky transes who've had the surgery through.
    Police what? I think you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m literally suggesting everyone have equal access to all of them.

    You stop talking about trans-issues in the context of loos by neutralising the whole thing. But I’d want some female opinions first. Not for me to make the rules for them.
    OK, apologies.

    I was responding to "keep some spaces as biological women only" without a clear definition of that.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    KEEP CALMER
    AND
    VOTE FARMER
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,386
    edited November 16
    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 177
    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    It depends on whether demand is elastic or not. If the consequence of Junior Doctor strikes is that expensive Consultants rearrange their holidays to provide cover [1] and then when those Consultants take TOIL / their holidays very expensive agency staff are used to cover them, then it may be cost effective to pay the JD’s demands.

    Massive increase in training would solve the problem. (See paramedics)

    S

    [1] and a big improvement in care.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,346

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,934
    edited November 16

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    It will simply concentrate more of the farmland in the hands of the big agri-businesses who aren't affected by the tax changes.
    There are very very few listed businesses owning British farmland. Almost all is owned by the big estates, which are privately held and subject to IHT.

    I work with a couple of agribusiness giants that have farmland, but it’s in the USA, Canada, Ukraine, Brazil and (until recently) Russia, where the big bucks are to be made.

    I think the APR changes were a bit cack handed but actually, certainly in the South and midlands, they may give tenant farmers more of a chance to pick up some holdings. I know from the long and frustrating process of trying to find land for a vineyard that most land just doesn’t come on the market from one generation to the next.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    No, licensed is the correct British English spelling for the verb.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,996
    Affairs in the Coop are "rampant", rather than "couchant"? Now that's interesting, but any details might not pass the "too much information" test.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,122

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    Nope, in this case it is very much licensed.
  • MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    I don’t agree.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,934

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    My team did some research into private taxes around the developed world. The results were stark: our IHT rate is was higher than our peers, but the scope of the tax is way narrower. Others tax more people, but at a lower rate.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,122
    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    Public sympathy was not really with the strikers either.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,386
    edited November 16
    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    It will simply concentrate more of the farmland in the hands of the big agri-businesses who aren't affected by the tax changes.
    There are very very few listed businesses owning British farmland. Almost all is owned by the big estates, which are privately held and subject to IHT.

    I work with a couple of agribusiness giants that have farmland, but it’s in the USA, Canada, Ukraine, Brazil and (until recently) Russia, where the big bucks are to be made.

    I think the APR changes were a bit cack handed but actually, certainly in the South and midlands, they may give tenant farmers more of a chance to pick up some holdings. I know from the long and frustrating process of trying to find land for a vineyard that most land just doesn’t come on the market from one generation to the next.
    Well indeed. A relative of mine has worked his entire adult life as a tenant farmer, and his eldest daughter now works for the son of the same landowner. Needless to say, the family of the landowner are apoplectic about the new tax, but my relative is secretly pleased because it means his daughter will have more of a chance of buying some land of her own. He has to keep very quiet about it though.
  • Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    Public sympathy was not really with the strikers either.
    I think it absolutely was with the NHS workers. The government lost that strike.
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 177

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    No, licensed is the correct British English spelling for the verb.
    You’re right. I used to believe everything that LuckyGuy used to post but now I’m starting to doubt him.
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 177

    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    I don’t agree.
    I think the country could have easily survived. But at a financial cost.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,346
    Mortimer said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    Nope, in this case it is very much licensed.
    No it isn't. It's 'to license' something but the past
    Mortimer said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    Nope, in this case it is very much licensed.
    I thought the past tense of to license was still licenced. My mistake and apologies, as you were.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    SteveS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    No, licensed is the correct British English spelling for the verb.
    You’re right. I used to believe everything that LuckyGuy used to post but now I’m starting to doubt him.
    There's no shame in being wrong occasionally...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    It will simply concentrate more of the farmland in the hands of the big agri-businesses who aren't affected by the tax changes.
    There are very very few listed businesses owning British farmland. Almost all is owned by the big estates, which are privately held and subject to IHT.

    I work with a couple of agribusiness giants that have farmland, but it’s in the USA, Canada, Ukraine, Brazil and (until recently) Russia, where the big bucks are to be made.

    I think the APR changes were a bit cack handed but actually, certainly in the South and midlands, they may give tenant farmers more of a chance to pick up some holdings. I know from the long and frustrating process of trying to find land for a vineyard that most land just doesn’t come on the market from one generation to the next.
    Well indeed. A relative of mine has worked his entire adult life as a tenant farmer, and his eldest daughter now works for the son of the same landowner. Needless to say, the family of the landowner are apoplectic about the new tax, but my relative is secretly pleased because it means his daughter will have more of a chance of buying some land of her own. He has to keep very quiet about it though.
    It's an ill wind etc etc...
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,336
    Nigelb said:

    SteveS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    No, licensed is the correct British English spelling for the verb.
    You’re right. I used to believe everything that LuckyGuy used to post but now I’m starting to doubt him.
    There's no shame in being wrong occasionally...
    I wouldn't know.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    My team did some research into private taxes around the developed world. The results were stark: our IHT rate is was higher than our peers, but the scope of the tax is way narrower. Others tax more people, but at a lower rate.
    Which is what we should do - take in more IHT and use the extra raised to fund social care.

    The long, long party is over boomers. Time to cough up.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    Nigelb said:

    SteveS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Don't f*** with Farmers. Farmers are licensed to carry firearms.
    Licenced.
    No, licensed is the correct British English spelling for the verb.
    You’re right. I used to believe everything that LuckyGuy used to post but now I’m starting to doubt him.
    There's no shame in being wrong occasionally...
    I wouldn't know.
    All the time, eh ?
    Sympathies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    .

    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    My team did some research into private taxes around the developed world. The results were stark: our IHT rate is was higher than our peers, but the scope of the tax is way narrower. Others tax more people, but at a lower rate.
    Which is what we should do - take in more IHT and use the extra raised to fund social care.

    The long, long party is over boomers. Time to cough up.

    Or we could seriously focus on growing the economy.
    Fighting over a shrinking pie is a depressing prospect.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Democratic Wins Media
    @DemocraticWins
    ·
    5h
    BREAKING: Democrat Allison Riggs just won her reelection campaign by less than 100 votes. Don’t ever let anyone tell you your vote doesn’t matter.

    https://x.com/DemocraticWins
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,122

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    Public sympathy was not really with the strikers either.
    I think it absolutely was with the NHS workers. The government lost that strike.
    Nurses perhaps. Doctors, nope....
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,260
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    My team did some research into private taxes around the developed world. The results were stark: our IHT rate is was higher than our peers, but the scope of the tax is way narrower. Others tax more people, but at a lower rate.
    Which is what we should do - take in more IHT and use the extra raised to fund social care.

    The long, long party is over boomers. Time to cough up.

    Or we could seriously focus on growing the economy.
    Fighting over a shrinking pie is a depressing prospect.
    Shifting the burden of taxation away from working people/businesses and onto wealth (inheritance tax etc.) is I would argue likely to improve economic growth.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,934
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    My team did some research into private taxes around the developed world. The results were stark: our IHT rate is was higher than our peers, but the scope of the tax is way narrower. Others tax more people, but at a lower rate.
    Which is what we should do - take in more IHT and use the extra raised to fund social care.

    The long, long party is over boomers. Time to cough up.

    Or we could seriously focus on growing the economy.
    Fighting over a shrinking pie is a depressing prospect.
    Shifting the burden of taxation away from working people/businesses and onto wealth (inheritance tax etc.) is I would argue likely to improve economic growth.
    As I said earlier they could have avoided all these protests by grandfathering the rules for land bought within the last 10 years.

    And yes, opening up land ownership to allow tenant farmers a look-in mightn’t be such a bad idea.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 24

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry.

    He is also wrong. There was no great jump in agricultural land value following the intrduction of relief in 1984. In fact landvalues in the late 80s were significantly lower than they were in the early 80s by about 20%. The big jump came after 2000 when land values increased from around £3,500 an acre in 2000 (Still lower than in 1980) to around £9,000 an acre in 2015.

    So in every meaningful way the article is bollocks.
    Yes, you could still get good pasture land in much of Scotland for around £1500 per acre in 2002. By 2008, the best blocks were selling for £5-6k/acre plus. The corporations and big businesses would start to ramp up interest in buying land from late 2000s onwards
  • eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    RobD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Yes thousands of them are marching on central London too on Tuesday organised by Farmers for Action and will be led by Jeremy Clarkson
    https://www.farminglife.com/country-and-farming/farmers-for-action-to-attend-london-protest-on-tuesday-19-november-4863528
    Is that the same Jeremy Clarkson who bought a farm as a tax avoidance wheeze?
    He seems genuinely interested in farming.
    Oh well, that's alright then. He's bought a farm for IHT avoidance purposes but he does also have an interest in farming.
    Two points on this. Firstly I think he is genuine in his farming endeavours. He may not have started that way but it’s certainly ended as.
    Secondly if something that you arrange as a tax efficient venture under current legislation suddenly becomes subject to new legislation then you have the right to be annoyed.
    Take ISAs. You can save tax free in ISAs up to a limit each year. If the government suddenly decided to change that, you’d have a right to be annoyed.
    Would you? As long as it didn't affect the tax status of your current ISAs, you'd have small reason to be upset.

    (While we're here, you have to have a seriously high income to be saving £20k year. I'm surprised it's not a hotter topic).
    Yes and Reeves left that untouched for the duration of the parliament.

    £20 000 is a lot of spare after tax income.
    £20,000 sounds a lot but the average mortgage repayment is close to that figure, so if HMG wishes to incentivise saving by middle-aged, middle class families who have paid off the mortgage, rather than spaff it away on Leon-inspired exotic holidays, then maybe it is about right.
    The south is clearly a different place because How big is the mortgage because our mortgage is £300 a month and even twin A's mortgage is £650 a month..
    Dunno. I just googled the average and got £1,400 a month which is £17,000 a year which is roughly the £20,000 ISA limit.
  • HYUFD said:

    'It's time for Starmer to tell the cops - police the streets, not the tweets'
    https://x.com/BorisJohnson/status/1857720570307064032

    I agree with Boris Johnson.
    If only Boris had been Prime Minister some time between 2014 and now...
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 24
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry.

    He is also wrong. There was no great jump in agricultural land value following the intrduction of relief in 1984. In fact landvalues in the late 80s were significantly lower than they were in the early 80s by about 20%. The big jump came after 2000 when land values increased from around £3,500 an acre in 2000 (Still lower than in 1980) to around £9,000 an acre in 2015.

    So in every meaningful way the article is bollocks.
    Yes, but 100% relief only came in 1992, so has a part to play in the trebling of land prices to 2015. It certainly wasn't the profitability of farming trebling.
    And again land values didn't change much (in fact dropped slightly) between 1992 and 2004 which is when they took off.
    Why do you think land prices took off?

    And do you really think that the value of 100% AR didn't increase prices?
    Profitability increased, a lot of smaller dairy producers packed in, farms becoming more businesslike, borrowing was easier in early 2000s than early 1990s. Big business starting to invest in land from 2000s onwards (mainly in England).

    Land price inflation wasn't a thing in the 1990s. APR has helped fuelled thr rise, but unlike houses, they don't make land any more (apart from China building their own islands)
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,757

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    RobD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I hope the farmers are successful in getting the government to back down on their inheritance tax policy.

    Yes thousands of them are marching on central London too on Tuesday organised by Farmers for Action and will be led by Jeremy Clarkson
    https://www.farminglife.com/country-and-farming/farmers-for-action-to-attend-london-protest-on-tuesday-19-november-4863528
    Is that the same Jeremy Clarkson who bought a farm as a tax avoidance wheeze?
    He seems genuinely interested in farming.
    Oh well, that's alright then. He's bought a farm for IHT avoidance purposes but he does also have an interest in farming.
    Two points on this. Firstly I think he is genuine in his farming endeavours. He may not have started that way but it’s certainly ended as.
    Secondly if something that you arrange as a tax efficient venture under current legislation suddenly becomes subject to new legislation then you have the right to be annoyed.
    Take ISAs. You can save tax free in ISAs up to a limit each year. If the government suddenly decided to change that, you’d have a right to be annoyed.
    Would you? As long as it didn't affect the tax status of your current ISAs, you'd have small reason to be upset.

    (While we're here, you have to have a seriously high income to be saving £20k year. I'm surprised it's not a hotter topic).
    Yes and Reeves left that untouched for the duration of the parliament.

    £20 000 is a lot of spare after tax income.
    £20,000 sounds a lot but the average mortgage repayment is close to that figure, so if HMG wishes to incentivise saving by middle-aged, middle class families who have paid off the mortgage, rather than spaff it away on Leon-inspired exotic holidays, then maybe it is about right.
    The south is clearly a different place because How big is the mortgage because our mortgage is £300 a month and even twin A's mortgage is £650 a month..
    Dunno. I just googled the average and got £1,400 a month which is £17,000 a year which is roughly the £20,000 ISA limit.
    I'd be interested (though obviously not enough to google it) to know the breakdown of the mean vs median. And how it varied by region.

    1400 is more than I've ever heard of for a monthly mortgage payment - so if that's the mean, I can only wince at the upper side.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243

    HYUFD said:

    'It's time for Starmer to tell the cops - police the streets, not the tweets'
    https://x.com/BorisJohnson/status/1857720570307064032

    I agree with Boris Johnson.
    So do I... But, but, but all this bullshit happened under 14 years of Conservative government, including two and half years of the Johnson Ministry... 🤷‍♂️
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,701
    edited November 16
    "Revealed: ‘Grassroots’ campaigns opposed to assisted dying financed by conservative Christian pressure groups

    Religious lobbyists are secretly coordinating and funding bodies that claim to be led by disabled people and health workers ............

    But analysis of financial records shows Our Duty of Care has close ties to religious lobby groups.

    It shares an office address and spokesperson with the Christian Medical Fellowship, an evangelical organisation with an anti-abortion stance, and receives funding from the religious lobby group Care (Christian Action, Research and Education), which is known for its opposition to abortion, sex education, gay marriage and broader LGBTQ+ rights."

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/nov/16/revealed-grassroots-campaigns-opposed-to-assisted-dying-financed-by-conservative-christian-pressure-groups
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    The Tories' problem is that they had 14 years to do something about thought-non-crime and didn't.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 24
    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    A price crash would certainly help those who aren't up to their necks in debt. There's no doubt there are more farms staying on the market for longer round here, more sellers than buyers was one land agents take on it
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    edited November 16
    Andy_JS said:

    The Tories' problem is that they had 14 years to do something about thought-non-crime and didn't.

    What the hell was a Conservative (a CONSERVATIVE) government doing criminalizing peoples thoughts?

    In just one policy you've got exactly why the Tories were routed in July 2024 and a Farage-led government is by no means out of the question in 2029...
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    Public sympathy was not really with the strikers either.
    I think it absolutely was with the NHS workers. The government lost that strike.
    Nurses perhaps. Doctors, nope....
    So we agree that continuing the nurses strike was wrong?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968
    Andy_JS said:

    The Tories' problem is that they had 14 years to do something about thought-non-crime and didn't.

    There's a lot of true statements that begin with the same 13 words and end with the same 2.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The Tories' problem is that they had 14 years to do something about thought-non-crime and didn't.

    There's a lot of true statements that begin with the same 13 words and end with the same 2.
    It will probably work reasonably well as a line in 2029.

    It worked for the Tories until 2017.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,122

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    Public sympathy was not really with the strikers either.
    I think it absolutely was with the NHS workers. The government lost that strike.
    Nurses perhaps. Doctors, nope....
    So we agree that continuing the nurses strike was wrong?
    Indeed. The Nurses shouldn't have continued their strikes...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,122
    edited November 16
    MikeL said:

    "Revealed: ‘Grassroots’ campaigns opposed to assisted dying financed by conservative Christian pressure groups

    Religious lobbyists are secretly coordinating and funding bodies that claim to be led by disabled people and health workers ............

    But analysis of financial records shows Our Duty of Care has close ties to religious lobby groups.

    It shares an office address and spokesperson with the Christian Medical Fellowship, an evangelical organisation with an anti-abortion stance, and receives funding from the religious lobby group Care (Christian Action, Research and Education), which is known for its opposition to abortion, sex education, gay marriage and broader LGBTQ+ rights."

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/nov/16/revealed-grassroots-campaigns-opposed-to-assisted-dying-financed-by-conservative-christian-pressure-groups

    This private members bill has come from nowhere. The only organised groups 'against it' will be long-standing religious lobby groups I suspect.

    But that makes no difference to the actual proposals.

    I would vote vehemently against it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 476
    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    I seem to recall that the UK used to be part of an agricultural subsidy system...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    TimS said:

    I’m watching Sky news. I don’t know who the speaker is, but she’s evil. I mean fully fucking evil. Right now she’s doing the whole climate NIMBYism thing. China USA blah blah blah.

    But that’s not the evil thing. After commenting that Europe is so “sclerotic” (yawn) that we should do a deal with Trump where we kowtow to his highness in exchange for reduced tariffs, she then said, and I quote, “Zelenskyy is going to have to realise that this war needs a diplomatic solution, rather than a land grab”.

    Rather than a land grab. I mean. Where do you start. Who’s doing the land grab? Angry goose meme. But of course she wasn’t challenged on this, because the West is terrified of those twats in the Kremlin.

    Hence Zelensky is getting closer to developing a nuclear bomb

    https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/zelensky-nuclear-weapons-bomb-0ddjrs5hw
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    Really? I randomly picked Germany and there it starts at €75,000 albeit at a low rate https://n26.com/en-de/blog/german-inheritance-tax
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,498
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    I’m watching Sky news. I don’t know who the speaker is, but she’s evil. I mean fully fucking evil. Right now she’s doing the whole climate NIMBYism thing. China USA blah blah blah.

    But that’s not the evil thing. After commenting that Europe is so “sclerotic” (yawn) that we should do a deal with Trump where we kowtow to his highness in exchange for reduced tariffs, she then said, and I quote, “Zelenskyy is going to have to realise that this war needs a diplomatic solution, rather than a land grab”.

    Rather than a land grab. I mean. Where do you start. Who’s doing the land grab? Angry goose meme. But of course she wasn’t challenged on this, because the West is terrified of those twats in the Kremlin.

    Hence Zelensky is getting closer to developing a nuclear bomb

    https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/zelensky-nuclear-weapons-bomb-0ddjrs5hw
    Her comments might be a bit offensive, but does she deserve to be nuked?
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Could the country have survived those previous strikes going on much longer though?
    Yes, easily.
    Public sympathy was not really with the strikers either.
    I think it absolutely was with the NHS workers. The government lost that strike.
    Nurses perhaps. Doctors, nope....
    So we agree that continuing the nurses strike was wrong?
    Indeed. The Nurses shouldn't have continued their strikes...
    Okay but they weren’t going to stop. So you agree it was right to get them stopped or not?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    edited November 16
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    Really? I randomly picked Germany and there it starts at €75,000 albeit at a low rate https://n26.com/en-de/blog/german-inheritance-tax
    Inheritance tax abolished in Sweden, Canada, Austria, Norway and Australia and New Zealand.

    In the US the threshold starts at over $5 million dollars. Germany also has massive subsidies from the government to farms
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,914
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    I’m watching Sky news. I don’t know who the speaker is, but she’s evil. I mean fully fucking evil. Right now she’s doing the whole climate NIMBYism thing. China USA blah blah blah.

    But that’s not the evil thing. After commenting that Europe is so “sclerotic” (yawn) that we should do a deal with Trump where we kowtow to his highness in exchange for reduced tariffs, she then said, and I quote, “Zelenskyy is going to have to realise that this war needs a diplomatic solution, rather than a land grab”.

    Rather than a land grab. I mean. Where do you start. Who’s doing the land grab? Angry goose meme. But of course she wasn’t challenged on this, because the West is terrified of those twats in the Kremlin.

    Hence Zelensky is getting closer to developing a nuclear bomb

    https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/zelensky-nuclear-weapons-bomb-0ddjrs5hw
    Americans of all people should understand you're not safe without the right to bear arms.

    Nuclear arms.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 476

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    I’m watching Sky news. I don’t know who the speaker is, but she’s evil. I mean fully fucking evil. Right now she’s doing the whole climate NIMBYism thing. China USA blah blah blah.

    But that’s not the evil thing. After commenting that Europe is so “sclerotic” (yawn) that we should do a deal with Trump where we kowtow to his highness in exchange for reduced tariffs, she then said, and I quote, “Zelenskyy is going to have to realise that this war needs a diplomatic solution, rather than a land grab”.

    Rather than a land grab. I mean. Where do you start. Who’s doing the land grab? Angry goose meme. But of course she wasn’t challenged on this, because the West is terrified of those twats in the Kremlin.

    Hence Zelensky is getting closer to developing a nuclear bomb

    https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/zelensky-nuclear-weapons-bomb-0ddjrs5hw
    Her comments might be a bit offensive, but does she deserve to be nuked?
    Probably.
    I don't see how getting a primitive nuclear device helps Ukraine, they need to deliver it as well and even if they do, Putin will retaliate either with full-blown nukes or by "accidentally" hitting a nuclear power station.
    The west left support for Ukraine far too late, in hindsight the time to have stopped Putin was right at the beginning when all his tanks were stuck in a convoy on the roads.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,404
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    Really? I randomly picked Germany and there it starts at €75,000 albeit at a low rate https://n26.com/en-de/blog/german-inheritance-tax
    Inheritance tax abolished in Sweden, Canada, Austria, Norway and Australia and New Zealand.

    In the US the threshold starts at over $5 million dollars. Germany also has massive subsidies from the government to farms
    Even France has better Inheritence tax laws than the UK. There it is paid by the recipient not the estate. Each recipient gets a tax free allowance of 150,000 Euros but even after that you have to inherit an additional half a million euros before you pay more than 20%.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,404
    Dopermean said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    I seem to recall that the UK used to be part of an agricultural subsidy system...
    We still are. A much better one.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,404

    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    My team did some research into private taxes around the developed world. The results were stark: our IHT rate is was higher than our peers, but the scope of the tax is way narrower. Others tax more people, but at a lower rate.
    Which is what we should do - take in more IHT and use the extra raised to fund social care.

    The long, long party is over boomers. Time to cough up.

    In case you missed it, it is not the Boomers who will be hit by these changes but the next generation.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,404
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Well, in the NHS strikes have stopped.
    There was a change of Government. Part of the reason for the strikes had gone away.
    Exactly, the new government re-opened negotiations rather than continue the debilitating stand off.
    LOL. No. Part of the reason for the strikes was purely political. To get rid of the Tory Government. Once that had happened that reason was gone. Having demanded 35% they settled for far less. Funny that.
    The Scottish Juniors accepted a 12% rise well before the Westminster election.

    If the Tories had offered that, then it too would have probably been accepted.

    The strikes were not being directed by radical leaders, they were grass roots grievances, hence the 98% vote from the Juniors to strike.
    Yeah. You carry on believing that. I suppose all those 35% demands were simply our imagination.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    Really? I randomly picked Germany and there it starts at €75,000 albeit at a low rate https://n26.com/en-de/blog/german-inheritance-tax
    Inheritance tax abolished in Sweden, Canada, Austria, Norway and Australia and New Zealand.

    In the US the threshold starts at over $5 million dollars. Germany also has massive subsidies from the government to farms
    Maybe the next Conservative government will commit to abolishing this tax, or at least set it at a similar level to the United States.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    On AllisonPearsongate

    "This didn't happen overnight. It took years and years for people on the Left to construct the censorship machinery that inevitably led to police knocking on a journalist's door for something she posted on social media.

    These bigots HATE that you might think differently and NOTHING will change their thinking until the Right grabs hold of this machinery and turns it on them."

    https://x.com/thackerpd/status/1857777696253857855

    "This thing is bad. We must use it against those we hate"

    You could, y'know...just disassemble it?

    If recording non-crime-hate-incident reports is bad... stop recording them. My preference would be to deindividualize them, aggregate the data and use it for statistical purposes. Ideally move it under the ONS and away from the criminal justice system.
    This is possibly the first time I've disagreed with you on something. I don't think they should be collecting the data at all.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    How much money did the Tories lose the country by not settling the pay rises in the first place? What an utterly pointless battle that was.

    I think you are assuming here that giving in to pay demands prevents strikes. It seems to me that the reverse is true - if unions see that striking works, more strikes ensue.
    Well, in the NHS strikes have stopped.
    There was a change of Government. Part of the reason for the strikes had gone away.
    Exactly, the new government re-opened negotiations rather than continue the debilitating stand off.
    LOL. No. Part of the reason for the strikes was purely political. To get rid of the Tory Government. Once that had happened that reason was gone. Having demanded 35% they settled for far less. Funny that.
    The Scottish Juniors accepted a 12% rise well before the Westminster election.

    If the Tories had offered that, then it too would have probably been accepted.

    The strikes were not being directed by radical leaders, they were grass roots grievances, hence the 98% vote from the Juniors to strike.
    Yeah. You carry on believing that. I suppose all those 35% demands were simply our imagination.
    They were a negotiating position. Hardly unusual. The Conservative government refused to engage in any negotiations. The Tories either wanted the strikes, or were refusing to engage with reality.

    Labour can arguably be criticised for not driving a harder bargain, given the fiscal state of the country, but the Tory position wasn't tenable.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,914
    Dopermean said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    I’m watching Sky news. I don’t know who the speaker is, but she’s evil. I mean fully fucking evil. Right now she’s doing the whole climate NIMBYism thing. China USA blah blah blah.

    But that’s not the evil thing. After commenting that Europe is so “sclerotic” (yawn) that we should do a deal with Trump where we kowtow to his highness in exchange for reduced tariffs, she then said, and I quote, “Zelenskyy is going to have to realise that this war needs a diplomatic solution, rather than a land grab”.

    Rather than a land grab. I mean. Where do you start. Who’s doing the land grab? Angry goose meme. But of course she wasn’t challenged on this, because the West is terrified of those twats in the Kremlin.

    Hence Zelensky is getting closer to developing a nuclear bomb

    https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/zelensky-nuclear-weapons-bomb-0ddjrs5hw
    Her comments might be a bit offensive, but does she deserve to be nuked?
    Probably.
    I don't see how getting a primitive nuclear device helps Ukraine, they need to deliver it as well and even if they do, Putin will retaliate either with full-blown nukes or by "accidentally" hitting a nuclear power station.
    The west left support for Ukraine far too late, in hindsight the time to have stopped Putin was right at the beginning when all his tanks were stuck in a convoy on the roads.
    You don't build one, you build a dozen.

    And you don't use it, you just ring up the White House and tell them "unless you continue to support us, we will detonate one of these on the Black Sea."

    One single nuclear test like that and the entire world is in chaos. Stock markets down 50% overnight. People fighting each other in the shops for the last loo rolls and tinned beans. Half the population of western cities fleeing en masse to the countryside. Panic in the streets.

    Ukraine need to play hardball now. It's the only way to prevent themselves being strongarmed into a deal that favours Russia.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,404
    Andy_JS said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    On AllisonPearsongate

    "This didn't happen overnight. It took years and years for people on the Left to construct the censorship machinery that inevitably led to police knocking on a journalist's door for something she posted on social media.

    These bigots HATE that you might think differently and NOTHING will change their thinking until the Right grabs hold of this machinery and turns it on them."

    https://x.com/thackerpd/status/1857777696253857855

    "This thing is bad. We must use it against those we hate"

    You could, y'know...just disassemble it?

    If recording non-crime-hate-incident reports is bad... stop recording them. My preference would be to deindividualize them, aggregate the data and use it for statistical purposes. Ideally move it under the ONS and away from the criminal justice system.
    This is possibly the first time I've disagreed with you on something. I don't think they should be collecting the data at all.
    I don't see any problem collecting the data as long as it is anonymised.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321

    HYUFD said:

    'It's time for Starmer to tell the cops - police the streets, not the tweets'
    https://x.com/BorisJohnson/status/1857720570307064032

    I agree with Boris Johnson.
    Don't be silly.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,260
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of AR, this letter in the FT makes a good point:


    The guy is a fucking idiot. He uses a small percentage of people misuing a tax loophole as an excuse for an attack on the whole farming industry
    But that’s the thing about economics. If a small number of people are willing to pay a high price then the invisible hand adjusts all land prices accordingly.

    I think everyone (other than the small percentage you mention above) would be happy if agricultural land prices crashed?

    S
    Yes, the invisible hand (market) here reflects the fact that, supply being near enough perfectly inelastic, the price of land is set by demand, which is certainly affected by tax incentives. Reducing them will surely push land prices down, and this is a beneficial side effect of a policy designed to raise tax revenue.

    Interestingly, of the 22 OECD countries listed in this report, the UK is one of only three countries in which "land or immovable property used for agriculture or forestry" is completely exempt from inheritance tax. Somehow, though, the others still manage to produce food:

    https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issues/tax-policy/inheritance-taxation-in-oecd-countries-brochure.pdf
    In most other OECD nations the threshold for inheritance tax is much higher than the UK or it is abolished altogether.

    They also support their farmers with more subsidies and tariffs on foreign food imports
    Really? I randomly picked Germany and there it starts at €75,000 albeit at a low rate https://n26.com/en-de/blog/german-inheritance-tax
    Inheritance tax abolished in Sweden, Canada, Austria, Norway and Australia and New Zealand.

    In the US the threshold starts at over $5 million dollars. Germany also has massive subsidies from the government to farms
    Maybe the next Conservative government will commit to abolishing this tax, or at least set it at a similar level to the United States.
    Economy will need to have improved quite a bit to be considering £7bn tax cuts.
    I'd like to see Labour raising more from inheritance/wealth and if it is possible to lower taxes, prioritise lowering income/NI...
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