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Ayrshire hotelier Donald Trump becomes American president again – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    edited November 6

    Incidentally, I would not be in the least bit surprised if, now they've won by trans-bashing, that gay-bashing becomes the next thing in the mind of the religious and wider right. Homophobia's never really disappeared, and they're a minority that's traditionally had many problems being accepted.

    I really hope I'm wrong, but such people always need a group to hate on. After immigrants, gay people?

    Anything is possible. Against it would be the favourite for Sec of State (also in running for NSA) is Ric Grenell, openly gay. If it happens its probably over a 10-20 year cycle rather than in this term.
    A little lesson from history: some Jewish groups, such as the German Vanguard and the German Nazi Jews Association, supported the Nazis during their rise to power. Only to later get outlawed and many members put into the camps. Both groups disliked Marxism and Communism more than they feared Hitler's rhetoric against communists and other groups.

    Members of minority groups supporting harsh words and actions against other minority groups should consider this.
    In the face of declining birthrates, I could imagine some governments, even liberal democratic ones, seeking to reverse many of the social changes of the post 1960's.
  • I am now very interested in a Johnson comeback.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    Congratulations, yet again, to Sean Trende, who weeks ago predicted 48/48 for Harris and Trump.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited November 6
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    @Leon I noted your post earlier where you said you had only been wrong on one thing here. I note others pointing out other occasions where that wasn't true but coincidence would have it that I have just been listening to back broadcasts of More or Less including 11 Sept and they brought up the story of millionaires leaving the country because of Labour. We are argued about it and I think you referred to me as a bit dim.

    Well it turns out the story was complete bollocks. The research was nonsense carried out by someone without even the basic knowledge of statistics (who to give him credit came on the show). They looked at linkedin accounts of the super rich (not run of the mill millionaires or even multi millionaires) and of course people who are mobile anyway with homes all over the place. The idiot didn't even understand the concept of a statistical sampling. He pointed out his sample was bigger than many opinion polls and didn't get that it wasn't representative to extrapolate from that the number of millionaires who would leave and in fact it was probably very wrong. He never did get the error because he hadn't a clue about statistics.

    To top it all Labour was never mentioned and the poll was done under a Conservative Govt.

    So you got that spectacularly wrong @Leon

    You also argued about the supposedly new research on tick and flea medicine impact rivers when a number of us told you it had been a well known fact for years. You stubbornly insisted it was new because Chris Packman said so on Countryfile even though I provided internet links from years before.

    There are none so blind.....

    You’re just a bit dim
    That's all you have got. When presented with the evidence that you got it spectacularly wrong by quoting a load of nonsense and with a link to the actual facts and an actual recording of the person who did the research (if you can call it that) actually demonstrating he did not understand representative sampling, that is all you can say.

    And all after giving @MarqueeMark a hard time over getting the election wrong. Any hypocrisy there maybe?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Have to say the NYT needle was a very easy way to make money last night. It alerted me to the possiblity of Trump winning the popular vote well before the markets seemed to react.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

  • And now PMQs
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411

    Rory Stewart:

    My bet on Harris was a "bet on the american people, on democracy, a bet against populism; it was a bet on hope"

    Translation: I was wishcasting and b-shitting.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    Sean_F said:

    Completely O/T but I see N. A. M. Rodger has completed his masterly history of the Royal Navy, and I must get a copy of the final book.

    First thing I asked my family for Christmas.

    Which means I'll probably now get 3 copies from different people.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    Starmer tries repeating his statement on Trump but suddenly Enterprise is dropped as a shared value - never a word which sounded right in his mouth anyway.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    ·
    2h
    OK, Trump has won and the GOP will be more powerful than before. Europe should have been preparing for this for years (at least months) but it hasnt.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1854095432063869267
  • Clearly abortion was not the salient issue the Harris team (and to be fair me) believed it was. So many people seem to have sat on their hands.

    I don’t think I appreciate at all how much the American people must feel things have gone wrong since 2020.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,411
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Ukraine, which everyone says they fear for now that The Donald is in charge. And some have hoped that the UK "steps up" in place of the US which of course is an instant LOL.

    Let's try to take the Putin-appeaser, coward, you're just like Chamberlain bit out and see where we are.

    Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate (not having followed every platoon attack and company advance, as some on here were at one point).

    With people dying.

    Now, I have always said that it is up to the people of Ukraine and the people of Ukraine only as to when or if they decide to negotiate a peace and I still hold to that.

    But, at some point the question has to be asked whether it might be better to negotiate a settlement based upon what people want to happen, together with what is happening on the ground.

    And of all the POTUSs I think Trump, or his team, might be the person to push that forward.

    You may hate the idea but it is logical and consistent to do so.

    Same with the Middle East, for that matter.

    "Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate"?

    With substantial western aid we're more or less in a stalemate!
    Without substantial western aid Ukraine will lose, and it will be very bloody.

    It's hard to see why Putin would agree to a ceasefire at this point. He must hope that Kharkiv is now obtainable.

    What leverage does Trump have over Putin?
    I think Putin would probably take a deal with the current territory + Ukraine controlled Kursk. Capturing Kharkiv would not be easy at all.
    Putin's made it very clear that, at a minimum, he wants full control of all the oblasts his army holds some of. Which not only means handing him that territory, but lots of territory that Ukraine currently holds. I wouldn't be surprises if he wants Odessa and a land bridge to it and Transnistria as well, turning Ukraine into a landlocked country.

    I don't think he budge from those aims. Why should he?
    There are plenty of reasons why not, most obviously that he will struggle to impose them on the battlefield, that he's running out of ways to recruit new soldiers, that his casualty rates are appalling and that his economy is overheating. But I agree that he's likely to still try for them.
    Trump said he'd easily get peace. but not how he'd get it. He dislikes Big Z and Ukraine. The GOP have stifled weapons supply to Ukraine.

    The Trump administration may give Ukraine no choice except to accept, especially if Europe and the rest of the world does not step up. It wouldn't be the first time that major powers have split up smaller countries without those countries' say-so.

    The sad thing is, it would not be a lasting peace. Not at all.
    Indeed. Europe, including the UK, absolutely needs to step up. However, I see few signs of it doing so. Its leaders prefer to cocoon themselves in wishful thinking and turn their heads away from the threats which assail them because they're too difficult, they're not sure if there's the domestic support for what needs doing, and international structures and relationships would need changing in a way inconvenient to the timescales they're accustomed to.

    Who exactly in Europe is in a position to take the lead? Or has the character, conviction and support to be able to do so? It's dismal.
    The Poles, possibly.
    But they don't have the weight of either Germany or France, without whom nothing really significant can happen.
    The Poles are building Europe's strongest army.
    Europe's defence rests on Poland.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best

    The Tories have a big call to make about how much distance they want to put between themselves and Trumpism.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    I am now very interested in a Johnson comeback.

    Kicked off Channel 4 for being a venal dick yesterday.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,246
    AnneJGP said:

    Rory Stewart:

    My bet on Harris was a "bet on the american people, on democracy, a bet against populism; it was a bet on hope"

    OK Rory, but you were confident you were going to be proved right, and you were wrong.
    Rory Stewart
    @RoryStewartUK
    ·
    2h
    For the record - I was completely wrong about Kamala Harris. It is heartbreaking that Trump is now the President.
    https://x.com/RoryStewartUK
    Seeing those 2 Rory Stewart remarks in quick succession suggests the thoughts do follow each other, in which case, it wasn't Kamala Harris he was wrong about, it was the American people.
    Two nations divided by a common language, as the old saying goes. 'Why can't you be more like us?' sigh exasperated Brits, to which the stock response is, 'If we were more like you we wouldn't have left in the first place'.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Ukraine, which everyone says they fear for now that The Donald is in charge. And some have hoped that the UK "steps up" in place of the US which of course is an instant LOL.

    Let's try to take the Putin-appeaser, coward, you're just like Chamberlain bit out and see where we are.

    Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate (not having followed every platoon attack and company advance, as some on here were at one point).

    With people dying.

    Now, I have always said that it is up to the people of Ukraine and the people of Ukraine only as to when or if they decide to negotiate a peace and I still hold to that.

    But, at some point the question has to be asked whether it might be better to negotiate a settlement based upon what people want to happen, together with what is happening on the ground.

    And of all the POTUSs I think Trump, or his team, might be the person to push that forward.

    You may hate the idea but it is logical and consistent to do so.

    Same with the Middle East, for that matter.

    "Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate"?

    With substantial western aid we're more or less in a stalemate!
    Without substantial western aid Ukraine will lose, and it will be very bloody.

    It's hard to see why Putin would agree to a ceasefire at this point. He must hope that Kharkiv is now obtainable.

    What leverage does Trump have over Putin?
    I think Putin would probably take a deal with the current territory + Ukraine controlled Kursk. Capturing Kharkiv would not be easy at all.
    Putin's made it very clear that, at a minimum, he wants full control of all the oblasts his army holds some of. Which not only means handing him that territory, but lots of territory that Ukraine currently holds. I wouldn't be surprises if he wants Odessa and a land bridge to it and Transnistria as well, turning Ukraine into a landlocked country.

    I don't think he budge from those aims. Why should he?
    There are plenty of reasons why not, most obviously that he will struggle to impose them on the battlefield, that he's running out of ways to recruit new soldiers, that his casualty rates are appalling and that his economy is overheating. But I agree that he's likely to still try for them.
    Trump said he'd easily get peace. but not how he'd get it. He dislikes Big Z and Ukraine. The GOP have stifled weapons supply to Ukraine.

    The Trump administration may give Ukraine no choice except to accept, especially if Europe and the rest of the world does not step up. It wouldn't be the first time that major powers have split up smaller countries without those countries' say-so.

    The sad thing is, it would not be a lasting peace. Not at all.
    Indeed. Europe, including the UK, absolutely needs to step up. However, I see few signs of it doing so. Its leaders prefer to cocoon themselves in wishful thinking and turn their heads away from the threats which assail them because they're too difficult, they're not sure if there's the domestic support for what needs doing, and international structures and relationships would need changing in a way inconvenient to the timescales they're accustomed to.

    Who exactly in Europe is in a position to take the lead? Or has the character, conviction and support to be able to do so? It's dismal.
    The Poles, possibly.
    But they don't have the weight of either Germany or France, without whom nothing really significant can happen.
    The Poles are building Europe's strongest army.
    Europe's defence rests on Poland.
    Didn't go so well in 1939....
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    Some time ago I did wonder whether Boris's endorsement of Trump might, at least in part, be a hedge against a Trump win. So that there was at least one pro- Ukrainian who might gain an audience. Just a thought.

    I quite like Boris (who is a near-neighbour), who is an amiable fellow and good fun, but I don't think he is motivated by many consistent policies, or that Trump will be influenced by him in the slightest.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Kemi goes for the easy shout over Lammy....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited November 6
    She's gone full Trump!

    I am not sure she heeded TSE's earlier advice.

    Maybe it is my bias, but she doesn't inspire me as she does the PB Tories.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    I am now very interested in a Johnson comeback.

    He has a following, but at the level of Trump? He's also stayed at the periphery since quitting the Commons, out of the game. Hard to make it work, but if Kemi crashes and burns I guess there's opportunity.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Clearly abortion was not the salient issue the Harris team (and to be fair me) believed it was. So many people seem to have sat on their hands.

    I don’t think I appreciate at all how much the American people must feel things have gone wrong since 2020.

    Why do you say people have sat on their hands?

    I thought we were still expecting turnout to be up on 2020.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991

    Clearly abortion was not the salient issue the Harris team (and to be fair me) believed it was. So many people seem to have sat on their hands.

    I don’t think I appreciate at all how much the American people must feel things have gone wrong since 2020.

    Don't fuck with their fast food....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best

    The Tories have a big call to make about how much distance they want to put between themselves and Trumpism.

    Most Tory voters prefer Harris to Trump, only Reform voters preferred the latter. They can be respectful to the incoming president without seemingly to indicate we should do all he does.
  • Clearly abortion was not the salient issue the Harris team (and to be fair me) believed it was. So many people seem to have sat on their hands.

    I don’t think I appreciate at all how much the American people must feel things have gone wrong since 2020.

    Why do you say people have sat on their hands?

    I thought we were still expecting turnout to be up on 2020.
    For Harris. Biden got what 80 million votes? She’s not going to be anywhere near that is she?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,189
    538 had 312 - 226 (Which it what it will be) as their most likely individual ECV outcome.

    Big + for the model - and it's common sense. The swing states are likely correlated to some degree so them going all one way or another is likely(ish). There's a bit of a gap to Trump's next targets - NH, Maine, Minnesota, VA and so on.

    2nd most likely was a Harris sweep of the swing states but not going any further (319 - 219)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    As I said earlier, the only people who can decide to stop the war are the Ukranians.

    But we seem to have a stalemate with many people dying. Are we saying that peace is less good than that on account of Putin's putative threat to the rest of Europe.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Good presentation, but a bad topic. We need to build relationships, which will be difficult and not damage them which she is doing by digging up Labour's problems with Trump for political purposes.

    Country before politics during a time which could be difficult.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited November 6
    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump, abandoning the centre.
  • Eabhal said:

    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump.

    Well it’s definitely a strategy. She’s not even going to try and win back the yellow wall then?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Ukraine, which everyone says they fear for now that The Donald is in charge. And some have hoped that the UK "steps up" in place of the US which of course is an instant LOL.

    Let's try to take the Putin-appeaser, coward, you're just like Chamberlain bit out and see where we are.

    Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate (not having followed every platoon attack and company advance, as some on here were at one point).

    With people dying.

    Now, I have always said that it is up to the people of Ukraine and the people of Ukraine only as to when or if they decide to negotiate a peace and I still hold to that.

    But, at some point the question has to be asked whether it might be better to negotiate a settlement based upon what people want to happen, together with what is happening on the ground.

    And of all the POTUSs I think Trump, or his team, might be the person to push that forward.

    You may hate the idea but it is logical and consistent to do so.

    Same with the Middle East, for that matter.

    "Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate"?

    With substantial western aid we're more or less in a stalemate!
    Without substantial western aid Ukraine will lose, and it will be very bloody.

    It's hard to see why Putin would agree to a ceasefire at this point. He must hope that Kharkiv is now obtainable.

    What leverage does Trump have over Putin?
    I think Putin would probably take a deal with the current territory + Ukraine controlled Kursk. Capturing Kharkiv would not be easy at all.
    Putin's made it very clear that, at a minimum, he wants full control of all the oblasts his army holds some of. Which not only means handing him that territory, but lots of territory that Ukraine currently holds. I wouldn't be surprises if he wants Odessa and a land bridge to it and Transnistria as well, turning Ukraine into a landlocked country.

    I don't think he budge from those aims. Why should he?
    There are plenty of reasons why not, most obviously that he will struggle to impose them on the battlefield, that he's running out of ways to recruit new soldiers, that his casualty rates are appalling and that his economy is overheating. But I agree that he's likely to still try for them.
    Trump said he'd easily get peace. but not how he'd get it. He dislikes Big Z and Ukraine. The GOP have stifled weapons supply to Ukraine.

    The Trump administration may give Ukraine no choice except to accept, especially if Europe and the rest of the world does not step up. It wouldn't be the first time that major powers have split up smaller countries without those countries' say-so.

    The sad thing is, it would not be a lasting peace. Not at all.
    Indeed. Europe, including the UK, absolutely needs to step up. However, I see few signs of it doing so. Its leaders prefer to cocoon themselves in wishful thinking and turn their heads away from the threats which assail them because they're too difficult, they're not sure if there's the domestic support for what needs doing, and international structures and relationships would need changing in a way inconvenient to the timescales they're accustomed to.

    Who exactly in Europe is in a position to take the lead? Or has the character, conviction and support to be able to do so? It's dismal.
    The Poles, possibly.
    But they don't have the weight of either Germany or France, without whom nothing really significant can happen.
    The Poles are building Europe's strongest army.
    Europe's defence rests on Poland.
    Didn't go so well in 1939....
    The Polish analysis of what happened in 1939 and afterwards is that -

    1) We need to bind our allies to ourselves, tightly.
    2) We need to ally with *everyone* who isn't Russia - hence even the irredentist nationalists in Poland have dropped claims to territory outside their current borders.
    3) We need the biggest, best equipped army and airforce in Europe. That way we will be able to defend ourselves - and control defence policy of the Eastern half of the EU.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Don’t think Badenoch is doing a great job here
  • Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Surely their best chance of winning is next time. Where they won’t be facing Trump.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,756
    Kemi quite confrontational for a first PMQ`s.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576

    Some time ago I did wonder whether Boris's endorsement of Trump might, at least in part, be a hedge against a Trump win. So that there was at least one pro- Ukrainian who might gain an audience. Just a thought.

    I quite like Boris (who is a near-neighbour), who is an amiable fellow and good fun, but I don't think he is motivated by many consistent policies, or that Trump will be influenced by him in the slightest.
    I see two big differences between Trump and Boris:

    *) Like him or loathe him, but Boris is intelligent. He may not always use that intelligence well, and make bad decisions because he thinks he is more intelligent than he is (a common trait...), but he is IMV undoubtedly more intelligent than Trump.

    *) Trump cares only about Trump. That is first and foremost in his mind. Johnson cares about himself - as most of us do to a certain extent - but he also cares about this country. That may be in a faux-Churchill manner, but it isn't all self-interest. Trump is all self-interest.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited November 6

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    So he has (checks clock) 11:45 hours to go until midnight.

    Will he turn into a pumpkin?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    I need to fix my foundations....
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    Eabhal said:

    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump, abandoning the centre.

    Is she supporting Trump, or just pointing out that Labour are going to have to deal with him, rather than throwing tantrums?
  • She wiped the floor with him.

    Kemi. Not Kamala.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    Mike Martin, now an MP, put it this way.

    If war is politics by other means, then the distinctions of war versus peace are not as sharp as we might think. Very often in popular discour war and peace are presented as binary opposites, as different states of being, with one being inherently bad, and the other inherently good. But peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the ability to handle conflict by peaceful means. It is the building of human political structures that enable us to keep talking, so that we need not resort to lethal violence to communicate....sometimes we have to fight a war to reach a durable peace;sometimes imposing peace onto a war before its questions are settled simply sets the scene for the next round of hostilities.

    I don't pretend to have the answer in what Ukraine can do, realistically, though I would like to support them not curtail them in their choices, but any answer which is just that peace, that is not fighting, is better, has to answer why didn't everyone just tell them to surrender in that case, if peace is automatically better. I fear they will have to sue for peace (or at least stalemate) sooner rather than later, and people can make sound arguments they should, but there are also sound reasons they shouldn't.
  • SMukesh said:

    Kemi quite confrontational for a first PMQ`s.

    Good. Starmer is vacuous. His attacks haven't worked, because no-one in this country believes them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    I think such chat is now irrelevant.
    Democratic post mortems are fairly pointless, until we see what the second Trump administration actually does.

    There's no going back to play out an alternate history; that has been obvious since Biden crashed in his debate with Trump. All we can say is that it might have been different.

    A Democratic response depends on what Trump does regarding his long list of threats and promises:

    Mass deportations;
    Massive tariffs;
    Support for an Israeli 'gloves off' strategy in the Middle East (Netanyahu has already appointed a more fundamentalist defence minister in anticipation);
    Abandonment (or not ?) of Ukraine;
    Removal of some/all US strategic support for any/all of Taiwan, S Korea and Japan;
    Ditto NATO;
    Revenge, retribution, and possibly prosecution of his domestic opponents;
    Dismantling of what the US has in the way of a welfare state;
    Repeal of Obamacare;
    Ending of the CHIPS Act manufacturing incentives...

    For a start.

    Democrats worrying about might-have-beens is an utter irrelevancy for the US, and that applies even more so to Europe.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    So to be charitable to Badenoch that… wasn’t great. Needs to be quicker on her feet and sharper in her messaging. She allowed Starmer lots of easy get-outs there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,189

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Surely their best chance of winning is next time. Where they won’t be facing Trump.
    Is Trump definitely term limited for next time ?

    He'll be OLD by then with another 4 years in the WH so might run Ramaswamy or Desantis as a proxy not run.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576
    Sean_F said:

    Incidentally, I would not be in the least bit surprised if, now they've won by trans-bashing, that gay-bashing becomes the next thing in the mind of the religious and wider right. Homophobia's never really disappeared, and they're a minority that's traditionally had many problems being accepted.

    I really hope I'm wrong, but such people always need a group to hate on. After immigrants, gay people?

    Anything is possible. Against it would be the favourite for Sec of State (also in running for NSA) is Ric Grenell, openly gay. If it happens its probably over a 10-20 year cycle rather than in this term.
    A little lesson from history: some Jewish groups, such as the German Vanguard and the German Nazi Jews Association, supported the Nazis during their rise to power. Only to later get outlawed and many members put into the camps. Both groups disliked Marxism and Communism more than they feared Hitler's rhetoric against communists and other groups.

    Members of minority groups supporting harsh words and actions against other minority groups should consider this.
    In the face of declining birthrates, I could imagine some governments, even liberal democratic ones, seeking to reverse many of the social changes of the post 1960's.
    That's very easy for us as men to say. But reversing those social changes will affect women much more than it does men, as the only way for the decline in birthrates to be reversed, and immigration curtailed, is for women to have more children. And it seems many women quite like the idea of not having many, or even any, children.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 508
    kle4 said:

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best

    The Tories have a big call to make about how much distance they want to put between themselves and Trumpism.

    Most Tory voters prefer Harris to Trump, only Reform voters preferred the latter. They can be respectful to the incoming president without seemingly to indicate we should do all he does.
    Apart from the "bro"s, every world leader is going to have to kiss his orange ring in the hope of mitigating his actions. 4 years of damage control, not a great prospect.
  • Eabhal said:

    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump, abandoning the centre.

    Is she supporting Trump, or just pointing out that Labour are going to have to deal with him, rather than throwing tantrums?
    She said Labour are implementing Bidenonimics.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Don’t think Badenoch is doing a great job here

    I'd characterise it as bad ideas, well presented.
    She's certainly gone full Trump. I think that's a mistake, feels like the goal was a gotcha at PMQs not the national interest.
    If she thinks that Bidenomics means high deficits I'm not sure she's going to like Trump fiscal policy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    In a nutshell...


    Owen Jones
    @owenjonesjourno
    ·
    4h
    I’m going back to my hotel in New York.

    With a Muslim Pakistani American cab driver… who voted for Donald Trump because “the prices were too high” under Biden

    https://x.com/owenjonesjourno
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Ukraine, which everyone says they fear for now that The Donald is in charge. And some have hoped that the UK "steps up" in place of the US which of course is an instant LOL.

    Let's try to take the Putin-appeaser, coward, you're just like Chamberlain bit out and see where we are.

    Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate (not having followed every platoon attack and company advance, as some on here were at one point).

    With people dying.

    Now, I have always said that it is up to the people of Ukraine and the people of Ukraine only as to when or if they decide to negotiate a peace and I still hold to that.

    But, at some point the question has to be asked whether it might be better to negotiate a settlement based upon what people want to happen, together with what is happening on the ground.

    And of all the POTUSs I think Trump, or his team, might be the person to push that forward.

    You may hate the idea but it is logical and consistent to do so.

    Same with the Middle East, for that matter.

    "Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate"?

    With substantial western aid we're more or less in a stalemate!
    Without substantial western aid Ukraine will lose, and it will be very bloody.

    It's hard to see why Putin would agree to a ceasefire at this point. He must hope that Kharkiv is now obtainable.

    What leverage does Trump have over Putin?
    I think Putin would probably take a deal with the current territory + Ukraine controlled Kursk. Capturing Kharkiv would not be easy at all.
    Putin's made it very clear that, at a minimum, he wants full control of all the oblasts his army holds some of. Which not only means handing him that territory, but lots of territory that Ukraine currently holds. I wouldn't be surprises if he wants Odessa and a land bridge to it and Transnistria as well, turning Ukraine into a landlocked country.

    I don't think he budge from those aims. Why should he?
    There are plenty of reasons why not, most obviously that he will struggle to impose them on the battlefield, that he's running out of ways to recruit new soldiers, that his casualty rates are appalling and that his economy is overheating. But I agree that he's likely to still try for them.
    Trump said he'd easily get peace. but not how he'd get it. He dislikes Big Z and Ukraine. The GOP have stifled weapons supply to Ukraine.

    The Trump administration may give Ukraine no choice except to accept, especially if Europe and the rest of the world does not step up. It wouldn't be the first time that major powers have split up smaller countries without those countries' say-so.

    The sad thing is, it would not be a lasting peace. Not at all.
    Indeed. Europe, including the UK, absolutely needs to step up. However, I see few signs of it doing so. Its leaders prefer to cocoon themselves in wishful thinking and turn their heads away from the threats which assail them because they're too difficult, they're not sure if there's the domestic support for what needs doing, and international structures and relationships would need changing in a way inconvenient to the timescales they're accustomed to.

    Who exactly in Europe is in a position to take the lead? Or has the character, conviction and support to be able to do so? It's dismal.
    The Poles, possibly.
    But they don't have the weight of either Germany or France, without whom nothing really significant can happen.
    The Poles are building Europe's strongest army.
    Given their location at the crossroads between Russia and central/western Europe, history would suggest they would be wise to have a very strong army on hand.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Ukraine, which everyone says they fear for now that The Donald is in charge. And some have hoped that the UK "steps up" in place of the US which of course is an instant LOL.

    Let's try to take the Putin-appeaser, coward, you're just like Chamberlain bit out and see where we are.

    Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate (not having followed every platoon attack and company advance, as some on here were at one point).

    With people dying.

    Now, I have always said that it is up to the people of Ukraine and the people of Ukraine only as to when or if they decide to negotiate a peace and I still hold to that.

    But, at some point the question has to be asked whether it might be better to negotiate a settlement based upon what people want to happen, together with what is happening on the ground.

    And of all the POTUSs I think Trump, or his team, might be the person to push that forward.

    You may hate the idea but it is logical and consistent to do so.

    Same with the Middle East, for that matter.

    "Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate"?

    With substantial western aid we're more or less in a stalemate!
    Without substantial western aid Ukraine will lose, and it will be very bloody.

    It's hard to see why Putin would agree to a ceasefire at this point. He must hope that Kharkiv is now obtainable.

    What leverage does Trump have over Putin?
    I think Putin would probably take a deal with the current territory + Ukraine controlled Kursk. Capturing Kharkiv would not be easy at all.
    Putin's made it very clear that, at a minimum, he wants full control of all the oblasts his army holds some of. Which not only means handing him that territory, but lots of territory that Ukraine currently holds. I wouldn't be surprises if he wants Odessa and a land bridge to it and Transnistria as well, turning Ukraine into a landlocked country.

    I don't think he budge from those aims. Why should he?
    There are plenty of reasons why not, most obviously that he will struggle to impose them on the battlefield, that he's running out of ways to recruit new soldiers, that his casualty rates are appalling and that his economy is overheating. But I agree that he's likely to still try for them.
    Trump said he'd easily get peace. but not how he'd get it. He dislikes Big Z and Ukraine. The GOP have stifled weapons supply to Ukraine.

    The Trump administration may give Ukraine no choice except to accept, especially if Europe and the rest of the world does not step up. It wouldn't be the first time that major powers have split up smaller countries without those countries' say-so.

    The sad thing is, it would not be a lasting peace. Not at all.
    Indeed. Europe, including the UK, absolutely needs to step up. However, I see few signs of it doing so. Its leaders prefer to cocoon themselves in wishful thinking and turn their heads away from the threats which assail them because they're too difficult, they're not sure if there's the domestic support for what needs doing, and international structures and relationships would need changing in a way inconvenient to the timescales they're accustomed to.

    Who exactly in Europe is in a position to take the lead? Or has the character, conviction and support to be able to do so? It's dismal.
    The Poles, possibly.
    But they don't have the weight of either Germany or France, without whom nothing really significant can happen.
    The Poles are building Europe's strongest army.
    Europe's defence rests on Poland.
    Didn't go so well in 1939....
    Rather better though against invasion by Russians in 1919-20.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    As I said earlier, the only people who can decide to stop the war are the Ukranians.

    But we seem to have a stalemate with many people dying. Are we saying that peace is less good than that on account of Putin's putative threat to the rest of Europe.

    A stalemate is better than a temporary peace that allows Putin to rebuild his capacity to redraw the map of Europe in the way he wants. But a permanent peace is better than a stalemate. You are not going to get a permanent peace on Day One of a Trump presidency. You are only going to get a temporary one.

  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    .

    She's gone full Trump!

    I am not sure she heeded TSE's earlier advice.

    Maybe it is my bias, but she doesn't inspire me as she does the PB Tories.

    Her job at PMQs is to inspire the Tories (preferably making as few unforced errors as possible).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    Eabhal said:

    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump, abandoning the centre.

    Is she supporting Trump, or just pointing out that Labour are going to have to deal with him, rather than throwing tantrums?
    Doesn't really matter. It's the signal it sends.
  • So to be charitable to Badenoch that… wasn’t great. Needs to be quicker on her feet and sharper in her messaging. She allowed Starmer lots of easy get-outs there.

    I thought she was very different and assured and is the best leader for the conservative party
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 508
    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Can't see them picking another female candidate for a while.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Sean_F said:

    Incidentally, I would not be in the least bit surprised if, now they've won by trans-bashing, that gay-bashing becomes the next thing in the mind of the religious and wider right. Homophobia's never really disappeared, and they're a minority that's traditionally had many problems being accepted.

    I really hope I'm wrong, but such people always need a group to hate on. After immigrants, gay people?

    Anything is possible. Against it would be the favourite for Sec of State (also in running for NSA) is Ric Grenell, openly gay. If it happens its probably over a 10-20 year cycle rather than in this term.
    A little lesson from history: some Jewish groups, such as the German Vanguard and the German Nazi Jews Association, supported the Nazis during their rise to power. Only to later get outlawed and many members put into the camps. Both groups disliked Marxism and Communism more than they feared Hitler's rhetoric against communists and other groups.

    Members of minority groups supporting harsh words and actions against other minority groups should consider this.
    In the face of declining birthrates, I could imagine some governments, even liberal democratic ones, seeking to reverse many of the social changes of the post 1960's.
    I don't think so, because doing so would be:
    unpopular
    unfashionable
    impose short term costs
    only deliver benefits decades into the future against an unmeasurable counterfactual.

    You can manage a couple of these in a democracy with a following wind, but all four is very hard.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 6
    Dopermean said:

    kle4 said:

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best

    The Tories have a big call to make about how much distance they want to put between themselves and Trumpism.

    Most Tory voters prefer Harris to Trump, only Reform voters preferred the latter. They can be respectful to the incoming president without seemingly to indicate we should do all he does.
    Apart from the "bro"s, every world leader is going to have to kiss his orange ring in the hope of mitigating his actions. 4 years of damage control, not a great prospect.
    There's going to be some embarrassing toadying going on which world leaders will then see form the basis of a Trump anecdote at some point.

    That's superpowers for you, especially when headed by one who wants personal praise more than most (I'm sure most presidents enjoy the power, but the in person display of it not as big a priority perhaps).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Clearly abortion was not the salient issue the Harris team (and to be fair me) believed it was. So many people seem to have sat on their hands.

    I don’t think I appreciate at all how much the American people must feel things have gone wrong since 2020.

    Why do you say people have sat on their hands?

    I thought we were still expecting turnout to be up on 2020.
    For Harris. Biden got what 80 million votes? She’s not going to be anywhere near that is she?
    I think it's more likely that there are plenty of people who voted Biden in 2020 and now Trump in 2024.

    I think there are still a lot of votes left to count. No idea if Harris will make it to 80 million, but if she doesn't it won't be because of differential turnout.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Dopermean said:

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Can't see them picking another female candidate for a while.
    Shapiro would likely have a chance against Vance in 2028 - but that's assuming there's an election...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited November 6
    The farmers line is possibly a winner, although delivered poorly.

    She wiped the floor with him.

    Kemi. Not Kamala.

    Are you sure? Starmer was pretty weak, but she was hardly full on William Hague.
  • Clearly abortion was not the salient issue the Harris team (and to be fair me) believed it was. So many people seem to have sat on their hands.

    I don’t think I appreciate at all how much the American people must feel things have gone wrong since 2020.

    Why do you say people have sat on their hands?

    I thought we were still expecting turnout to be up on 2020.
    For Harris. Biden got what 80 million votes? She’s not going to be anywhere near that is she?
    I think it's more likely that there are plenty of people who voted Biden in 2020 and now Trump in 2024.

    I think there are still a lot of votes left to count. No idea if Harris will make it to 80 million, but if she doesn't it won't be because of differential turnout.
    Well that’s even worse for her then.

    These people really must feel the US has gone backwards under Biden.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    SMukesh said:

    Kemi quite confrontational for a first PMQ`s.

    No point in being supine or tentative. Big chance to make an impression on people, even if she were to be less combative in future.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Ukraine, which everyone says they fear for now that The Donald is in charge. And some have hoped that the UK "steps up" in place of the US which of course is an instant LOL.

    Let's try to take the Putin-appeaser, coward, you're just like Chamberlain bit out and see where we are.

    Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate (not having followed every platoon attack and company advance, as some on here were at one point).

    With people dying.

    Now, I have always said that it is up to the people of Ukraine and the people of Ukraine only as to when or if they decide to negotiate a peace and I still hold to that.

    But, at some point the question has to be asked whether it might be better to negotiate a settlement based upon what people want to happen, together with what is happening on the ground.

    And of all the POTUSs I think Trump, or his team, might be the person to push that forward.

    You may hate the idea but it is logical and consistent to do so.

    Same with the Middle East, for that matter.

    "Without substantial western aid it looks as though we are more or less in a stalemate"?

    With substantial western aid we're more or less in a stalemate!
    Without substantial western aid Ukraine will lose, and it will be very bloody.

    It's hard to see why Putin would agree to a ceasefire at this point. He must hope that Kharkiv is now obtainable.

    What leverage does Trump have over Putin?
    I think Putin would probably take a deal with the current territory + Ukraine controlled Kursk. Capturing Kharkiv would not be easy at all.
    Putin's made it very clear that, at a minimum, he wants full control of all the oblasts his army holds some of. Which not only means handing him that territory, but lots of territory that Ukraine currently holds. I wouldn't be surprises if he wants Odessa and a land bridge to it and Transnistria as well, turning Ukraine into a landlocked country.

    I don't think he budge from those aims. Why should he?
    There are plenty of reasons why not, most obviously that he will struggle to impose them on the battlefield, that he's running out of ways to recruit new soldiers, that his casualty rates are appalling and that his economy is overheating. But I agree that he's likely to still try for them.
    Trump said he'd easily get peace. but not how he'd get it. He dislikes Big Z and Ukraine. The GOP have stifled weapons supply to Ukraine.

    The Trump administration may give Ukraine no choice except to accept, especially if Europe and the rest of the world does not step up. It wouldn't be the first time that major powers have split up smaller countries without those countries' say-so.

    The sad thing is, it would not be a lasting peace. Not at all.
    Indeed. Europe, including the UK, absolutely needs to step up. However, I see few signs of it doing so. Its leaders prefer to cocoon themselves in wishful thinking and turn their heads away from the threats which assail them because they're too difficult, they're not sure if there's the domestic support for what needs doing, and international structures and relationships would need changing in a way inconvenient to the timescales they're accustomed to.

    Who exactly in Europe is in a position to take the lead? Or has the character, conviction and support to be able to do so? It's dismal.
    The Poles, possibly.
    But they don't have the weight of either Germany or France, without whom nothing really significant can happen.
    The Poles are building Europe's strongest army.
    Europe's defence rests on Poland.
    It's almost like I wrote an article on it...
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/01/29/the-intermarium/
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    As I said earlier, the only people who can decide to stop the war are the Ukranians.

    But we seem to have a stalemate with many people dying. Are we saying that peace is less good than that on account of Putin's putative threat to the rest of Europe.
    Russia's position is not that strong. Why else do they need North Korean soldiers? Their economy has started displaying red warning signs again. A more wholehearted support for Ukraine with proper long range strike capability would have us in a better position now. It's not that Trump wants peace. It's that he seems happy to negotiate it on Putin's terms.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    Don’t think Badenoch is doing a great job here

    I'd characterise it as bad ideas, well presented.
    She's certainly gone full Trump. I think that's a mistake, feels like the goal was a gotcha at PMQs not the national interest.
    If she thinks that Bidenomics means high deficits I'm not sure she's going to like Trump fiscal policy.
    Being nakedly Pro-Trump is quite a hostage to fortune. Our next election is after the next POTUS one.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Nigelb said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    I think such chat is now irrelevant.
    Democratic post mortems are fairly pointless, until we see what the second Trump administration actually does.

    There's no going back to play out an alternate history; that has been obvious since Biden crashed in his debate with Trump. All we can say is that it might have been different.

    A Democratic response depends on what Trump does regarding his long list of threats and promises:

    Mass deportations;
    Massive tariffs;
    Support for an Israeli 'gloves off' strategy in the Middle East (Netanyahu has already appointed a more fundamentalist defence minister in anticipation);
    Abandonment (or not ?) of Ukraine;
    Removal of some/all US strategic support for any/all of Taiwan, S Korea and Japan;
    Ditto NATO;
    Revenge, retribution, and possibly prosecution of his domestic opponents;
    Dismantling of what the US has in the way of a welfare state;
    Repeal of Obamacare;
    Ending of the CHIPS Act manufacturing incentives...

    For a start.

    Democrats worrying about might-have-beens is an utter irrelevancy for the US, and that applies even more so to Europe.
    Trump doesn't become President until late January. There's plenty of time to work out mistakes made in the past, in the hope of not repeating them, before dealing with whatever Trump does.

    Also, all our chat on here is irrelevant, except insofar as it helps people make better betting decisions.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Surely their best chance of winning is next time. Where they won’t be facing Trump.
    Is Trump definitely term limited for next time ?

    He'll be OLD by then with another 4 years in the WH so might run Ramaswamy or Desantis as a proxy not run.
    From day one he will be working for and agitating for an end to term limits. I've said this before on here and been told 'you need 2/3 of the states', 'Trump derangement syndrome' etc etc.

    He will find a way.

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813

    So to be charitable to Badenoch that… wasn’t great. Needs to be quicker on her feet and sharper in her messaging. She allowed Starmer lots of easy get-outs there.

    I thought she was very different and assured and is the best leader for the conservative party
    I thought she was quite nervous actually, and let the occasion get to her rather than responding to Starmer’s quite weak responses. But it is her first go.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Eabhal said:

    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump, abandoning the centre.

    Is she supporting Trump, or just pointing out that Labour are going to have to deal with him, rather than throwing tantrums?
    She said Labour are implementing Bidenonimics.
    If only they were.
    And is she really advocating Trumponomics ?
  • Can I check if it is OK to mention that UK 10 year gilts hit a new 12 month high today, when our borrowing is increasing dramatically? I know that some, like that Abojizza bloke, think these things should be mentioned (even though all news outlets covered this).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Surely their best chance of winning is next time. Where they won’t be facing Trump.
    Is Trump definitely term limited for next time ?

    He'll be OLD by then with another 4 years in the WH so might run Ramaswamy or Desantis as a proxy not run.
    The classic authoritarian approach thesedays is adopt a new constitution so that it resets your terms. I don't think even Trump would care to try that, and he won't have a need to anyway - they aren't going to be restarting his legal cases in 4 years time.
  • Badenoch seems to be going for the Red Wall vote that abandoned her party in 2024. Not much attempt to go after the yellow wall just yet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Cookie said:

    Dopermean said:

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Can't see them picking another female candidate for a while.
    Nor can I. But I think that will be drawing the wrong lesson i.e. 'we lost because the voters are sexist' rather than 'we lost because we pick candidates whose position is not close to that of the voters'.
    But the former will be the easier comfort blanket to cling to.
    Could be both.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    In a nutshell...


    Owen Jones
    @owenjonesjourno
    ·
    4h
    I’m going back to my hotel in New York.

    With a Muslim Pakistani American cab driver… who voted for Donald Trump because “the prices were too high” under Biden

    https://x.com/owenjonesjourno

    Yes, rape, racketeering and sedition are less of a priority than the price of gas.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Looks like Badenoch is going for the Reform vote. Stark difference with Davey on Trump, abandoning the centre.

    Is she supporting Trump, or just pointing out that Labour are going to have to deal with him, rather than throwing tantrums?
    Doesn't really matter. It's the signal it sends.
    I'm not sure how much that matters given the likelihood that Trump will no longer be president by the time of our next GE.
  • Cookie said:

    Dopermean said:

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Can't see them picking another female candidate for a while.
    Nor can I. But I think that will be drawing the wrong lesson i.e. 'we lost because the voters are sexist' rather than 'we lost because we pick candidates whose position is not close to that of the voters'.
    But the former will be the easier comfort blanket to cling to.
    I think what they need is essentially a young “red” democrat.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited November 6
    Its started already, CNN just ran a segment where all the talking heads agreed Trump doesn't really have a mandate.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,078
    Dopermean said:

    Cookie said:

    The Republicans are

    Everything I can see initially is that it’s the economy.

    I don’t see how any Democrat candidate would have been able to turn that around.

    But that analysis absolves the Democrats if any agency, or any blame on their own defeat.

    If a Democrat Governor had run on an anti-status quo platform then the Democrats might have escaped Biden's legacy. Or the Democrats might have won the argument as to why Trump's policies would make things worse. Or they might have had better policies for making the next four years better.

    Cameron's Conservatives were able to win the 2015GE, despite austerity, because they won the political argument over why it was necessary, and they credibly explained why it would lead to a better future. Successful political campaigns come down to successful messaging. The Democrats didn't have a winning message.

    Inflation certainly made their job harder, but defeat was never inevitable.
    Clearly the Democrats are to blame. Harris didn’t articulate an argument on the economy which Trump did.

    Which governor could have run and done better so you think?
    Whitmer and Shapiro are the obvious ones who get mentioned a lot, probably for good reason.
    Both have the added advantage for appealing to the American centre of being from neither New York nor California.
    Can't see them picking another female candidate for a while.
    Best to wait until one surfaces by excelling at the job, rather than by balancing a ticket.
  • Another marginal crumb of comfort, which I suspect is only of interest to a couple of us so far, is that in a week's time there are scheduled to be two congressional hearings into the unusual UAPs goings-on above several US airbases this year.

    As several, but not all, of the politicians involved are Trump-aligned Republicans, that might help the process; although the fact that they are doesn't necessarily invalidate it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638
    kle4 said:

    Dopermean said:

    kle4 said:

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best

    The Tories have a big call to make about how much distance they want to put between themselves and Trumpism.

    Most Tory voters prefer Harris to Trump, only Reform voters preferred the latter. They can be respectful to the incoming president without seemingly to indicate we should do all he does.
    Apart from the "bro"s, every world leader is going to have to kiss his orange ring in the hope of mitigating his actions. 4 years of damage control, not a great prospect.
    There's going to be some embarrassing toadying going on which world leaders will then see form the basis of a Trump anecdote at some point.

    That's superpowers for you, especially when headed by one who wants personal praise more than most (I'm sure most presidents enjoy the power, but the in person display of it not as big a priority perhaps).
    Trump loves a kiss arse, and seems to have a short memory. Indeed he quite likes a turncoat in his favour, hence Vice President Elect Vance.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    As I said earlier, the only people who can decide to stop the war are the Ukranians.

    But we seem to have a stalemate with many people dying. Are we saying that peace is less good than that on account of Putin's putative threat to the rest of Europe.

    A stalemate is better than a temporary peace that allows Putin to rebuild his capacity to redraw the map of Europe in the way he wants. But a permanent peace is better than a stalemate. You are not going to get a permanent peace on Day One of a Trump presidency. You are only going to get a temporary one.

    You mean he was using a rhetorical device? Oh my.

    Oh and you casually throw out the word stalemate as though it somehow doesn't involve the death of many young men. You don't get to say whether that is a "price worth paying".
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    DDHQ now has everything called except Arizona and Michigan.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,189

    Can I check if it is OK to mention that UK 10 year gilts hit a new 12 month high today, when our borrowing is increasing dramatically? I know that some, like that Abojizza bloke, think these things should be mentioned (even though all news outlets covered this).

    Hoo boy am I glad I fixed the mortgage at 3.79%. As a plus the pension is getting boosted by the equities rally and I should be able to enjoy higher rates on my savings for longer :D.

    Hopefully the 5 YR comes down in 5 yrs time. But yes this isn't good news for Starmer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited November 6

    A new rule for my list.

    Any politician who says, all the time, 'We will make the tough decisions", is incapable of making a decision.

    Bit like a parent who keeps saying if you don't stop doing that I will punish you....rather than you have been bad, no pocket money, grounded etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Its started already, CNN just ran a segment where all the talking heads agreed Trump doesn't really have a mandate.

    I hate the word mandate with a passion. No-one ever really has one, according to opponents, whilst anything is part of that mandate, for the person claiming it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    edited November 6

    Sean_F said:

    Incidentally, I would not be in the least bit surprised if, now they've won by trans-bashing, that gay-bashing becomes the next thing in the mind of the religious and wider right. Homophobia's never really disappeared, and they're a minority that's traditionally had many problems being accepted.

    I really hope I'm wrong, but such people always need a group to hate on. After immigrants, gay people?

    Anything is possible. Against it would be the favourite for Sec of State (also in running for NSA) is Ric Grenell, openly gay. If it happens its probably over a 10-20 year cycle rather than in this term.
    A little lesson from history: some Jewish groups, such as the German Vanguard and the German Nazi Jews Association, supported the Nazis during their rise to power. Only to later get outlawed and many members put into the camps. Both groups disliked Marxism and Communism more than they feared Hitler's rhetoric against communists and other groups.

    Members of minority groups supporting harsh words and actions against other minority groups should consider this.
    In the face of declining birthrates, I could imagine some governments, even liberal democratic ones, seeking to reverse many of the social changes of the post 1960's.
    That's very easy for us as men to say. But reversing those social changes will affect women much more than it does men, as the only way for the decline in birthrates to be reversed, and immigration curtailed, is for women to have more children. And it seems many women quite like the idea of not having many, or even any, children.
    I would not disagree, But, policymakers might well do, if they consider it's the only way for their societies to remain viable.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    As I said earlier, the only people who can decide to stop the war are the Ukranians.

    But we seem to have a stalemate with many people dying. Are we saying that peace is less good than that on account of Putin's putative threat to the rest of Europe.
    Russia's position is not that strong. Why else do they need North Korean soldiers? Their economy has started displaying red warning signs again. A more wholehearted support for Ukraine with proper long range strike capability would have us in a better position now. It's not that Trump wants peace. It's that he seems happy to negotiate it on Putin's terms.
    And you know this, how?

    Do you think you, Frank Booth (or whoever tf) is uniquely placed, over the Pentagon, say, to assess who is in what position to do and agree to what.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,189
    edited November 6
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dopermean said:

    kle4 said:

    Presumably it is going to be like a funeral on the Labour backbenches at PMQs in a minute or two?

    I think Kemi might go on that e.g Lammy’s comments. It’s a goal she might be tempted to take, though majoring on Trump in her first PMQs might not be tactically the best

    The Tories have a big call to make about how much distance they want to put between themselves and Trumpism.

    Most Tory voters prefer Harris to Trump, only Reform voters preferred the latter. They can be respectful to the incoming president without seemingly to indicate we should do all he does.
    Apart from the "bro"s, every world leader is going to have to kiss his orange ring in the hope of mitigating his actions. 4 years of damage control, not a great prospect.
    There's going to be some embarrassing toadying going on which world leaders will then see form the basis of a Trump anecdote at some point.

    That's superpowers for you, especially when headed by one who wants personal praise more than most (I'm sure most presidents enjoy the power, but the in person display of it not as big a priority perhaps).
    Trump loves a kiss arse, and seems to have a short memory. Indeed he quite likes a turncoat in his favour, hence Vice President Elect Vance.
    Zelensky got in early lol, because he well had to.

    Tbf to Starmer he did too :D
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Natasha Clark is with TSE., she's baffled Badenoch went on herTrump escapade. Clark who is normally pro -Conservative was much happier with Ed's intervention.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely surprised anyone is surprised by this result - except, perhaps, by how big it is. Trump owned the fundamentals and most American voters like what he represents. He now controls all levers of power in the US so we will get to see what Trumpism is - and whether it works.

    I would be surprised if the full fat tariff plan came in because whatever its long term benefits (dubious) in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to US consumers. What's more, while the US market is very big, the plutocrats who stand behind Trump need bigger markets in order to thrive. People like Elon Musk cannot afford major trade wars.

    The empowerment of Putin and the betrayal of Ukraine is different. If that happens, a new and very dangerous chapter in world history opens up. Any analysis of Europe's options that does not factor in Orbán and Fico - and the veto power they currently have inside the EU and NATO - is not worth the paper it's written on. People foolish enough to to fantasise about some sudden European awakening need to wake up. We failed to plan for the high likelihood of a Trump return, we’ll fail to react to it too. Until there’s an actual war, short-term political interest always trumps (geddit) the long-term good. In the UK and everywhere else.

    Then you haven't been reading PB too much as few would countenance any thoughts of Trump winning despite many people (me, @rcs1000) posting article upon article explaining Trump's appeal to the masses, usually to much opprobrium.

    I have not been on here much but when I have been I have always been surprised people were bullish about Trump losing. I never was. I agree that US voters have agency and they like what Trump is and what he stands for. That never really seemed in much doubt to me. I have always been much more puzzled by his cheerleaders in the UK as the policies he advocates run so contrary to our interests. The claim was he never really meant what he said. Well, now we get to find out. I suspect the tariffs will be less consequential than threatened, if they happen at all; but the abandonment of Ukraine and empowerment of Putin remains a serious concern.

    What has Trump said about Ukraine?

    Peace on Day One.

    Needs a bit of unpicking or are we saying that Peace is not a good thing. And that people should go on fighting because they believe the enemy and the threat of the enemy is such that they must continue.

    What I am saying is that if you empower Putin it's very bad for the UK. You empower Putin by giving him what he wants. The Ukrainians do not want to give him what he wants. They want to fight. For as long as they do, I think it's in our interests to help them do it. The alternative is we leave what Europe looks like to Putin.

    Mike Martin, now an MP, put it this way.

    If war is politics by other means, then the distinctions of war versus peace are not as sharp as we might think. Very often in popular discour war and peace are presented as binary opposites, as different states of being, with one being inherently bad, and the other inherently good. But peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the ability to handle conflict by peaceful means. It is the building of human political structures that enable us to keep talking, so that we need not resort to lethal violence to communicate....sometimes we have to fight a war to reach a durable peace;sometimes imposing peace onto a war before its questions are settled simply sets the scene for the next round of hostilities.

    I don't pretend to have the answer in what Ukraine can do, realistically, though I would like to support them not curtail them in their choices, but any answer which is just that peace, that is not fighting, is better, has to answer why didn't everyone just tell them to surrender in that case, if peace is automatically better. I fear they will have to sue for peace (or at least stalemate) sooner rather than later, and people can make sound arguments they should, but there are also sound reasons they shouldn't.
    Woah, cool guy!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martin_(British_politician)
    https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/102207693/2013_Martin_Michael_1070992_ethesis.pdf
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