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Labour’s left-wing problem – politicalbetting.com

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    We know it coming along with a load of sin taxes / nanny state restrictions.

    Ministers are facing pressure to ­introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol after Lord Darzi’s investigation into the NHS highlighted the “alarming” death toll in England caused by cheap drink.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/05/england-urged-to-bring-in-minimum-unit-price-on-alcohol-as-deaths-rise-10-a-year

    After five years of this government, we might not be sick, but we are going to be the Miserable Man of Europe.

    Life here is going to be utterly joyless.
    Even for government minsters now they won't be taking all those freebies to events.....
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,668

    Israel has killed the head of the Hamas military wing in Lebanon. Saeed Atallah was killed in an airstrike that hit his apartment in Tripoli, northern Lebanon.

    It is as if Israel has all terrorist group leaders AirTagged in Lebanon.

    I imagine that they have. The bombs in the pagers was only the most spectacular end of that operation, I should think.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5
    Zahawi the football hooligan is a bit weird, in that as far as I can tell he never had any connection to the city of Liverpool or anywhere nearby early in life. He is London based. I would have thought in the 80s not only his ethnicity but his lack of scouser accent would have him stick out a lot among a Liverpool firm.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143

    Only 30 days to the US election. The most important in our lifetimes.....

    Since the last US election....and until the next one.
    Trump 2020-24 would have been a continuation of the previous few years.
    Trump 2024-28 might be that but also might be Project 2025 and/or the end of Western hegemony and alliances.
    If Trump loses fair chance it is the end of the road for Trumpian politics so 2028 may not be so threatening.

    I concur with the original statement with a minor caveat, this is (probably) the most important in our lifetimes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    We know it coming along with a load of sin taxes / nanny state restrictions.

    Ministers are facing pressure to ­introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol after Lord Darzi’s investigation into the NHS highlighted the “alarming” death toll in England caused by cheap drink.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/05/england-urged-to-bring-in-minimum-unit-price-on-alcohol-as-deaths-rise-10-a-year

    At the same time they’re talking about “assisted dying”.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
    It would be a strange claim to lie about.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    mwadams said:

    Israel has killed the head of the Hamas military wing in Lebanon. Saeed Atallah was killed in an airstrike that hit his apartment in Tripoli, northern Lebanon.

    It is as if Israel has all terrorist group leaders AirTagged in Lebanon.

    I imagine that they have. The bombs in the pagers was only the most spectacular end of that operation, I should think.
    Surely Hamas & Hezbollah leaders don't sleep in the same place every night? Now, at any rate.

    And Good Morning to one and all.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561
    MJW said:

    Foxy said:

    The Labour independents, and those elected as independents like Leicester's own Shockhat Adam* could form quite a grouping over time, though probably quite a loose one.

    Though if Starmer stands down before the next GE, I would expect a different style of leader who might attract them back. Leaders are usually replaced by someone who covers what was missed by the last one. So I would expect Labour's next leader to be more openly left wing and a better communicator of vision, perhaps Ms Rayner for example.

    *he seems quite left wing in his policies, as far as I can tell. He isn't particularly socially conservative.

    The basic problem is that other than the current grouping on Gaza, there's probably not enough unity to hold things together to form a meaningful movement that could do Labour serious damage.

    Most obviously, Duffield is persona non-grata on the left - If it were a market, I'd have a small wager on her fighting the next election as a Conservative, if they look resurgent having returned to a semblance of sanity.

    The Gaza independents, with the exception of Corbyn are more socially conservative than the left, for obvious reasons.

    To pick out Adam as you do, the 'not particularly social conservative'. His one statement on LGBTQ+ issues and education is that though children should be taught about all relationships "parents must be taken into consideration".

    Diplomatic, but very much the line of mainstream social conservatives, not those who sit to the left of Labour because they think it's too right-wing. His not spouting the views of some supporters is to be welcomed - but it doesn't mean Muslim communitarian politics sits that easily alongside blue haired ultra-progressivism once you move beyond Israel/Palestine and ask what policies each actually wants, over slogans.

    The groupings and alliances that formed over Iraq failed to make much headway. In part due to this and the genuine 'terrorists/dictators who dislike the same people we do are good, actually' hard left, who believe things that shock progressives for who Labour is an eternal disappointment and get drawn in by agreement on anti-establishment, 'anti-war' rhetoric.

    Then you have those who basically want to still be left-wing Labour politicians with solid achievements, and those who want something more vibey and incoherent like the Greens.

    Corbyn provided a weird rallying point for a good while - but that was partly because he was to some extent performatively vague - supporters who'd agree on little could project their views and favourite ideas on to him, because his words were often so vacuous. Also in part because they were fighting shared enemies for control of Labour.

    Once you move beyond that though, there's not necessarily much of a shared programme beyond being angry at the Labour Party. Which can work in the run up to an election they look likely to win as a rallying point for dissent- but probably needs more to sustain it in the longer term otherwise everyone starts bickering.
    I think that personality counts for more than you'd think and perhaps would wish. Jeremy is a nice man, famously reluctant to attack anyone personally (even Tories with shock-horror records), and that encouraged people who are broadly pro-Labour but want Labour to be left-wing not to recoil at personal vitriol. The left needs a younger figure to rally round who isn't obviusly preoccupied with Gaza or violently anti-Labour. I'm not sure they exist at the moment, or that the FPTP system gives them much of a chance..
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
    It would be a strange claim to lie about.
    Its a variant of "I came from a deprived working class background" that so many politicians claim when its not true.

    Zahawi had a posho upbringing in London so his opportunities to be a Liverpool football hooligan would have been limited.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    We know it coming along with a load of sin taxes / nanny state restrictions.

    Ministers are facing pressure to ­introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol after Lord Darzi’s investigation into the NHS highlighted the “alarming” death toll in England caused by cheap drink.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/05/england-urged-to-bring-in-minimum-unit-price-on-alcohol-as-deaths-rise-10-a-year

    Less than a month after Scotland released figures showing that minimum pricing had comprehensively failed and that alcohol related deaths have hit a 15 year high.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632

    Only 30 days to the US election. The most important in our lifetimes.

    Yes. Squeaky bum time doesn't cover it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    We know it coming along with a load of sin taxes / nanny state restrictions.

    Ministers are facing pressure to ­introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol after Lord Darzi’s investigation into the NHS highlighted the “alarming” death toll in England caused by cheap drink.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/05/england-urged-to-bring-in-minimum-unit-price-on-alcohol-as-deaths-rise-10-a-year

    After five years of this government, we might not be sick, but we are going to be the Miserable Man of Europe.

    Life here is going to be utterly joyless.
    NHS bosses want chippy to sell fruit and veg

    Plans for a new chippy have come up against a health board's demands for fruit and veg on the menu. Betsi Cadwaladr health board wants the proposed takeaway in Morfa Bychan, Gwynedd, to sell a "good selection" of fruit and veg.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce3zwz4025zo
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an obvious idea so good it's surprising no one did it properly a decade back.

    Having real temperature control (as opposed to power setting) on a stove top. The twist is having an integrated rechargeable battery, so the cooking surface can deliver instantaneous power that's well in excess of the mains supply.

    So we ended up integrating a new type of sensor with the highest performance induction system I think ever built ...

    After cooking with it, we realized something: actually having high heat + temperature sensing is ... big.

    Like "worth replacing a high end stove" big.

    https://x.com/sdamico/status/1826435062126313790

    When we re-did our kitchen a couple of years back we got an induction hob. It's really quick, and easy to clean. It's as quick to adjust as gas, but I think I still prefer gas.
    In twenty years it will still be perfect black shiny glass. When you see a gas hob that’s 20 you may want amto call environmental health.

    Love my induction hob. 20 this year.
    Induction hob, great.

    Half your pans being incompatible with an Induction hob, not so great.

    Electric hobs are shit.

    Induction hobs are shit.

    Both have horrible ‘buttons’ and the latter requires stupid special pans.

    Gas is the only choice for people who like to cook.
    This is pb.com. No doubt someone here will argue for the benefits of cooking with a haybox...
    A slight surprise that Anabob should come over all Luddite, though.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,445

    MJW said:

    Foxy said:

    The Labour independents, and those elected as independents like Leicester's own Shockhat Adam* could form quite a grouping over time, though probably quite a loose one.

    Though if Starmer stands down before the next GE, I would expect a different style of leader who might attract them back. Leaders are usually replaced by someone who covers what was missed by the last one. So I would expect Labour's next leader to be more openly left wing and a better communicator of vision, perhaps Ms Rayner for example.

    *he seems quite left wing in his policies, as far as I can tell. He isn't particularly socially conservative.

    The basic problem is that other than the current grouping on Gaza, there's probably not enough unity to hold things together to form a meaningful movement that could do Labour serious damage.

    Most obviously, Duffield is persona non-grata on the left - If it were a market, I'd have a small wager on her fighting the next election as a Conservative, if they look resurgent having returned to a semblance of sanity.

    The Gaza independents, with the exception of Corbyn are more socially conservative than the left, for obvious reasons.

    To pick out Adam as you do, the 'not particularly social conservative'. His one statement on LGBTQ+ issues and education is that though children should be taught about all relationships "parents must be taken into consideration".

    Diplomatic, but very much the line of mainstream social conservatives, not those who sit to the left of Labour because they think it's too right-wing. His not spouting the views of some supporters is to be welcomed - but it doesn't mean Muslim communitarian politics sits that easily alongside blue haired ultra-progressivism once you move beyond Israel/Palestine and ask what policies each actually wants, over slogans.

    The groupings and alliances that formed over Iraq failed to make much headway. In part due to this and the genuine 'terrorists/dictators who dislike the same people we do are good, actually' hard left, who believe things that shock progressives for who Labour is an eternal disappointment and get drawn in by agreement on anti-establishment, 'anti-war' rhetoric.

    Then you have those who basically want to still be left-wing Labour politicians with solid achievements, and those who want something more vibey and incoherent like the Greens.

    Corbyn provided a weird rallying point for a good while - but that was partly because he was to some extent performatively vague - supporters who'd agree on little could project their views and favourite ideas on to him, because his words were often so vacuous. Also in part because they were fighting shared enemies for control of Labour.

    Once you move beyond that though, there's not necessarily much of a shared programme beyond being angry at the Labour Party. Which can work in the run up to an election they look likely to win as a rallying point for dissent- but probably needs more to sustain it in the longer term otherwise everyone starts bickering.
    I think that personality counts for more than you'd think and perhaps would wish. Jeremy is a nice man, famously reluctant to attack anyone personally (even Tories with shock-horror records), and that encouraged people who are broadly pro-Labour but want Labour to be left-wing not to recoil at personal vitriol. The left needs a younger figure to rally round who isn't obviusly preoccupied with Gaza or violently anti-Labour. I'm not sure they exist at the moment, or that the FPTP system gives them much of a chance..
    Awkward echoes of Boris, even more awkward ones of Donald.

    In their various ways, the way they were as people (personal asceticism, superficial joviality, assumed alphadom) meant that they got too free a pass on their policies and actions. But take the figurehead off the ship, and it no longer floats.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
    It would be a strange claim to lie about.
    Its a variant of "I came from a deprived working class background" that so many politicians claim when its not true.

    Zahawi had a posho upbringing in London so his opportunities to be a Liverpool football hooligan would have been limited.
    Maybe...you would have thought you could come up with a slightly more wholesome story than I spent my Saturdays being a hooligan (and in the 80s it was proper bad). Can't see many people thinking well that makes him less of a posho, down to earth guy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888

    Only 30 days to the US election. The most important in our lifetimes.....

    Since the last US election....and until the next one.
    What next one?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,445

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
    It would be a strange claim to lie about.
    It sort of makes sense as an unusual person's failed attempt to sound normal.

    More importantly, Zahawi is a private citizen now. Who cares what he did or didn't do?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    We're back with the Confederacy.

    Trump begins his event in North Carolina by vowing to restore Confederate names to renamed military facilities..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1842336847818547293

    Traitors are very much on brand for Trump.
  • On topic - If the Left could unite with prominent politicians at their head then they could certainly do some damage to Labour under FPTP.

    Of course the chances of them uniting are about equal to my chances of becoming the new Iranian Supreme Leader
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
    It would be a strange claim to lie about.
    It sort of makes sense as an unusual person's failed attempt to sound normal.

    More importantly, Zahawi is a private citizen now. Who cares what he did or didn't do?
    Don't such people normally come up with running through fields of wheat ;-)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5
    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue. That growth agenda doesn't seem at the forefront of all decisions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173

    On topic - If the Left could unite with prominent politicians at their head then they could certainly do some damage to Labour under FPTP.

    Of course the chances of them uniting are about equal to my chances of becoming the new Iranian Supreme Leader

    You never know.
    The rate they're going through them...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    Nigelb said:

    We're back with the Confederacy.

    Trump begins his event in North Carolina by vowing to restore Confederate names to renamed military facilities..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1842336847818547293

    Traitors are very much on brand for Trump.

    Fun to look up these Civil War dudes, though.
    ...Bragg is generally considered among the worst generals of the Civil War. Most of the battles he engaged in ended in defeat. Bragg was extremely unpopular with both the officers and ordinary men under his command, who criticized him for numerous perceived faults, including poor battlefield strategy, a quick temper, and overzealous discipline...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    Nigelb said:

    We're back with the Confederacy.

    Trump begins his event in North Carolina by vowing to restore Confederate names to renamed military facilities..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1842336847818547293

    Traitors are very much on brand for Trump.

    Well, there are mementos of the Jacobites in Scotland! Including, IIRC, a statue of the Young Pretender.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980
    edited October 5

    Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has admitted that he used to be a football hooligan and would “go out looking for fights”.

    ... Mr Zahawi said: “I was part of Liverpool’s firm and would go out looking for fights as a football hooligan.

    “In one fight with Southampton fans...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadhim-zahawi-football-hooligan-liverpool-b2623543.html

    The real reason Rishi sacked him.

    Well that is quite a revelation.....surprised it didn't come out before when he became high profile politician. I really wouldn't have pegged him as such.

    I don't think we have to worry about TSE being revealed to be part of such a crew, as getting into trouble like that would mess up his trainers.
    Claiming to have been a football hooligan is not the same thing as being one.

    Unless Zahawi can show his criminal record we can assume he occasionally hung around behind the real hooligans.
    It would be a strange claim to lie about.
    Its a variant of "I came from a deprived working class background" that so many politicians claim when its not true.

    Zahawi had a posho upbringing in London so his opportunities to be a Liverpool football hooligan would have been limited.
    Maybe...you would have thought you could come up with a slightly more wholesome story than I spent my Saturdays being a hooligan (and in the 80s it was proper bad). Can't see many people thinking well that makes him less of a posho, down to earth guy.
    That’s a weird story. Not the sort of thing you’d normally make up, but also not the sort of thing one might expect from an immigrant with a middle-class background who wants to rebel as a teenager.

    Most football ‘fans’ at the time were definitely the working-class white man types, there’s going to be plenty of them that remember this posh Arab lad joining in the Saturday ‘fun’, if indeed the story is true.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,676
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    We know it coming along with a load of sin taxes / nanny state restrictions.

    Ministers are facing pressure to ­introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol after Lord Darzi’s investigation into the NHS highlighted the “alarming” death toll in England caused by cheap drink.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/05/england-urged-to-bring-in-minimum-unit-price-on-alcohol-as-deaths-rise-10-a-year

    Less than a month after Scotland released figures showing that minimum pricing had comprehensively failed and that alcohol related deaths have hit a 15 year high.
    The problem is that minimum unit pricing forces poor alcoholics to buy less food, and has no effect on better-off alcoholics
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,091

    We know it coming along with a load of sin taxes / nanny state restrictions.

    Ministers are facing pressure to ­introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol after Lord Darzi’s investigation into the NHS highlighted the “alarming” death toll in England caused by cheap drink.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/05/england-urged-to-bring-in-minimum-unit-price-on-alcohol-as-deaths-rise-10-a-year

    After five years of this government, we might not be sick, but we are going to be the Miserable Man of Europe.

    Life here is going to be utterly joyless.
    NHS bosses want chippy to sell fruit and veg

    Plans for a new chippy have come up against a health board's demands for fruit and veg on the menu. Betsi Cadwaladr health board wants the proposed takeaway in Morfa Bychan, Gwynedd, to sell a "good selection" of fruit and veg.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce3zwz4025zo
    One wonders whether the health board realises how quickly fresh fruit & veg can deteriorate. For a chippy it will hardly be a loss leader. In fact, if people start going to the chippy for fruit & veg, it would be quite likely to end up with them eating more chips'n'stuff than before.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,144
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    I’d have thought the extremists are more likely to be tactically voted against than the Tories?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an obvious idea so good it's surprising no one did it properly a decade back.

    Having real temperature control (as opposed to power setting) on a stove top. The twist is having an integrated rechargeable battery, so the cooking surface can deliver instantaneous power that's well in excess of the mains supply.

    So we ended up integrating a new type of sensor with the highest performance induction system I think ever built ...

    After cooking with it, we realized something: actually having high heat + temperature sensing is ... big.

    Like "worth replacing a high end stove" big.

    https://x.com/sdamico/status/1826435062126313790

    When we re-did our kitchen a couple of years back we got an induction hob. It's really quick, and easy to clean. It's as quick to adjust as gas, but I think I still prefer gas.
    In twenty years it will still be perfect black shiny glass. When you see a gas hob that’s 20 you may want amto call environmental health.

    Love my induction hob. 20 this year.
    Induction hob, great.

    Half your pans being incompatible with an Induction hob, not so great.

    Electric hobs are shit.

    Induction hobs are shit.

    Both have horrible ‘buttons’ and the latter requires stupid special pans.

    Gas is the only choice for people who like to cook.
    This is pb.com. No doubt someone here will argue for the benefits of cooking with a haybox...
    A slight surprise that Anabob should come over all Luddite, though.
    I thought maybe Anabob would favour a means of cooking utilising burned banknotes....
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,126
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an obvious idea so good it's surprising no one did it properly a decade back.

    Having real temperature control (as opposed to power setting) on a stove top. The twist is having an integrated rechargeable battery, so the cooking surface can deliver instantaneous power that's well in excess of the mains supply.

    So we ended up integrating a new type of sensor with the highest performance induction system I think ever built ...

    After cooking with it, we realized something: actually having high heat + temperature sensing is ... big.

    Like "worth replacing a high end stove" big.

    https://x.com/sdamico/status/1826435062126313790

    When we re-did our kitchen a couple of years back we got an induction hob. It's really quick, and easy to clean. It's as quick to adjust as gas, but I think I still prefer gas.
    In twenty years it will still be perfect black shiny glass. When you see a gas hob that’s 20 you may want amto call environmental health.

    Love my induction hob. 20 this year.
    Induction hob, great.

    Half your pans being incompatible with an Induction hob, not so great.

    Electric hobs are shit.

    Induction hobs are shit.

    Both have horrible ‘buttons’ and the latter requires stupid special pans.

    Gas is the only choice for people who like to cook.
    This is pb.com. No doubt someone here will argue for the benefits of cooking with a haybox...
    Ed Miliband hates hay 😡
    If you do that, Theresa May will suddenly climb out of it.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,316

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an obvious idea so good it's surprising no one did it properly a decade back.

    Having real temperature control (as opposed to power setting) on a stove top. The twist is having an integrated rechargeable battery, so the cooking surface can deliver instantaneous power that's well in excess of the mains supply.

    So we ended up integrating a new type of sensor with the highest performance induction system I think ever built ...

    After cooking with it, we realized something: actually having high heat + temperature sensing is ... big.

    Like "worth replacing a high end stove" big.

    https://x.com/sdamico/status/1826435062126313790

    When we re-did our kitchen a couple of years back we got an induction hob. It's really quick, and easy to clean. It's as quick to adjust as gas, but I think I still prefer gas.
    In twenty years it will still be perfect black shiny glass. When you see a gas hob that’s 20 you may want amto call environmental health.

    Love my induction hob. 20 this year.
    Induction hob, great.

    Half your pans being incompatible with an Induction hob, not so great.

    Electric hobs are shit.

    Induction hobs are shit.

    Both have horrible ‘buttons’ and the latter requires stupid special pans.

    Gas is the only choice for people who like to cook.
    This is pb.com. No doubt someone here will argue for the benefits of cooking with a haybox...
    A slight surprise that Anabob should come over all Luddite, though.
    I thought maybe Anabob would favour a means of cooking utilising burned banknotes....
    Is there no-one willing to speak up for cooking on a wood-fired aga?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885

    Nigelb said:

    We're back with the Confederacy.

    Trump begins his event in North Carolina by vowing to restore Confederate names to renamed military facilities..
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1842336847818547293

    Traitors are very much on brand for Trump.

    Well, there are mementos of the Jacobites in Scotland! Including, IIRC, a statue of the Young Pretender.
    Tobes?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5
    Fishing said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
    You need both. The problem is previous governments have gone we will move some civil servants out of London and fund some white elephant that will do it, but that doesn't sort it, while educational achievement in the North lags the South.

    However, all the talent from the North goes to the SE, because poor job prospects, poor infrastructure etc e.g I am not going to set up a business somewhere with poor internet, high crime, poor housing, poor connections to set of the country.

    And it comes back again and again, to also, you can't get f##k all built of any size, and it all ends up going through central government in London.

    --

    Edit - I imagine the brain drain from North to South doesn't help educational achievement in the North. If loads of smart motivated people leave, who are much more likely to be motivating their kids to strive to achieve. And that has knock on effect as your Mum / Dad has a well nice house / car, how come, well they have this good job...how did they get that....they got good A-levels, went to a good uni.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,778
    IanB2 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    I’d have thought the extremists are more likely to be tactically voted against than the Tories?
    I think the idea is that xenophobia and racism are the new normal. Anyone who doesn't share those values is 'unpatriotic', to borrow the language of a leading Tory moderate [sic].
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    In the 2023/24 financial year, the government of the United Kingdom spent approximately 26.8 billion British pounds on Railways, compared with 6.1 billion on national roads, six billion on local roads, 4.9 billion on local public transport, and 2.3 billion on other forms of transport.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/298675/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-transport-by-category/#:~:text=In the 2023/24 financial,on other forms of transport.

    I wonder how much tax is raised on road transport in comparison.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    edited October 5

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    Which is a failure to explain HS2, which would help extend rail services to more people by freeing up capacity on local lines.

    I agree that bus services are by the far the most important thing to fix though, and not just in rural areas. From richest to poorest income deciles, travel mode looks something like:

    Rail (flat distribution except for a big spike in decile 10, mainly because most commuter services head into London)
    Car* (drops off significantly in income deciles 1 and 2)
    Metro/trams etc
    Bus (lots more use in deciles 1-4, and this has seen the biggest fall since 2010)

    *Car use is interesting, because the mileage and car ownership distributions look quite different. Rich people tend to have more than one car and do relatively shorter journeys; poor people have one or no cars and do longer ones if they do. That's why motoring taxation has to be calibrated carefully and the current system is wrong, imo.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,400

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue. That growth agenda doesn't seem at the forefront of all decisions.

    What first made me sceptical about Holyrood was its early obsession with Edinburgh tram routes. The Transport Secretary to be intervening on one station sign is truly parish council stuff.
  • Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    edited October 5

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    In the 2023/24 financial year, the government of the United Kingdom spent approximately 26.8 billion British pounds on Railways, compared with 6.1 billion on national roads, six billion on local roads, 4.9 billion on local public transport, and 2.3 billion on other forms of transport.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/298675/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-transport-by-category/#:~:text=In the 2023/24 financial,on other forms of transport.

    I wonder how much tax is raised on road transport in comparison.
    These spreadsheet comparisons don't work because a city like London could not operate without a rail service; to build the road and parking capacity to accomodate everyone currently using public transport would cost at least as much.

    In fact, the best way to develop support for something like cycle infrastructure and bus lanes is to explain to motorists that those investments are effectively ones into the road network.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    A shoot for a film starring Daniel Day-Lewis and Sean Bean was interrupted when traffic wardens began to ticket vehicles being used in a scene.

    Filming was taking place in Handbridge in Chester for Anemone, a new feature co-written by triple Oscar-winner Day-Lewis and his son 26-year-old son Ronan.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgxj1jy71zo

    Famously Daneil Day-Lewis likes to stay in character at all times, I hope isn't playing the sort of character he played in Gangs of New York, as the traffic warden is in big trouble.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue. That growth agenda doesn't seem at the forefront of all decisions.

    What first made me sceptical about Holyrood was its early obsession with Edinburgh tram routes. The Transport Secretary to be intervening on one station sign is truly parish council stuff.
    Hmm. One of the conclusions of the inquiry was that had Transport Scotland been more involved, it would have been a smoother process. Experience of large projects is important, and leaving it to ECC was risky.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5
    Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been silent for months - now some Israelis believe he has been killed

    Two well-placed Israeli officials told The Telegraph that the defence establishment believes that Sinwar is now dead.

    One of the sources said that “it is highly likely that Yahya Sinwar was eliminated in one of the IDF strikes. The assessments in Israel’s security leadership suggest that Sinwar was most likely killed.”

    ---

    But since he doesn’t have a mandate to strike a deal by himself, there won’t be any ceasefire until Mr Sinwar either shows signs of life, and re-engages with mediators, or he is announced dead and a new leader is appointed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/05/yahya-sinwar-clues-that-israels-most-wanted-man-may-dead/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    Leon said:

    If anyone is coming to Pristina, I can really recommend the Hotel Pristina. It’s right in the middle of Pristina and has excellent views of Pristina. I cannot, however, recommend Pristina

    Flint Knappers Weekly really seem to like sending you to Eastern most parts of Europe.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
    I’m sure that they just chose carefully the research that justified their intention to put up a giant billboard to rake in advertising money.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    If anyone is coming to Pristina, I can really recommend the Hotel Pristina. It’s right in the middle of Pristina and has excellent views of Pristina. I cannot, however, recommend Pristina

    Flint Knappers Weekly really seem to like sending you to Eastern most parts of Europe.
    Apparently Kosova has some really nice bits. Its just that Pristina is not one of them
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5
    Esmail Qaani, Quds Force general of IRGC, was in the bunker where Hashem Safieddine was killed.

    Why are senior Iranian officials going anywhere near Lebanon at the moment? Seems unwise.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been silent for months - now some Israelis believe he has been killed

    Two well-placed Israeli officials told The Telegraph that the defence establishment believes that Sinwar is now dead.

    One of the sources said that “it is highly likely that Yahya Sinwar was eliminated in one of the IDF strikes. The assessments in Israel’s security leadership suggest that Sinwar was most likely killed.”

    ---

    But since he doesn’t have a mandate to strike a deal by himself, there won’t be any ceasefire until Mr Sinwar either shows signs of life, and re-engages with mediators, or he is announced dead and a new leader is appointed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/05/yahya-sinwar-clues-that-israels-most-wanted-man-may-dead/

    Wisest course of action currently for a terrorist leader is likely to use no electronic devices and play dead.

    Especially if you are.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been silent for months - now some Israelis believe he has been killed

    Two well-placed Israeli officials told The Telegraph that the defence establishment believes that Sinwar is now dead.

    One of the sources said that “it is highly likely that Yahya Sinwar was eliminated in one of the IDF strikes. The assessments in Israel’s security leadership suggest that Sinwar was most likely killed.”

    ---

    But since he doesn’t have a mandate to strike a deal by himself, there won’t be any ceasefire until Mr Sinwar either shows signs of life, and re-engages with mediators, or he is announced dead and a new leader is appointed.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/05/yahya-sinwar-clues-that-israels-most-wanted-man-may-dead/

    Wisest course of action currently for a terrorist leader is likely to use no electronic devices and play dead.

    Especially if you are.
    It is also rather useful for Bibi to have a Schrödinger's cat situation. I would love to do deal, but I can't, because no reply.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980

    Esmail Qaani, Quds Force general of IRGC, was in the bunker where Hashem Safieddine was killed.

    Why are senior Iranian officials going anywhere near Lebanon at the moment? Seems unwise.

    How many more senior officials of Iran and the various Iran-backed terror groups in the region have to be killed, before they realise that someone is feeding their enemy details of their locations and movements in real time?

    After the pagers and radios blew up, did they all go and get themselves bugged mobile phones?
  • Fishing said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
    You need both. The problem is previous governments have gone we will move some civil servants out of London and fund some white elephant that will do it, but that doesn't sort it, while educational achievement in the North lags the South.

    However, all the talent from the North goes to the SE, because poor job prospects, poor infrastructure etc e.g I am not going to set up a business somewhere with poor internet, high crime, poor housing, poor connections to set of the country.

    And it comes back again and again, to also, you can't get f##k all built of any size, and it all ends up going through central government in London.

    --

    Edit - I imagine the brain drain from North to South doesn't help educational achievement in the North. If loads of smart motivated people leave, who are much more likely to be motivating their kids to strive to achieve. And that has knock on effect as your Mum / Dad has a well nice house / car, how come, well they have this good job...how did they get that....they got good A-levels, went to a good uni.
    Reading about Denise Coates and Bet365 in the Graun this morning, it looks like she stayed in her home town, runs the business from there, and has invested in the area, thereby proving that you don't have to go to London or the SE to be successful.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,119
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    While many Tory members are favourably inclined to Reform, I think fewer Tory voters are. Historically Tories aren't very big on tactical voting either. Encouraging it is likely to accelerate their journey to the plughole.

    Apart from the xenophobia, and not caring much about the environment, Reform voters are significantly to the left of the Conservatives. It isn't an easy gap to bridge from either side.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780
    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    In the 2023/24 financial year, the government of the United Kingdom spent approximately 26.8 billion British pounds on Railways, compared with 6.1 billion on national roads, six billion on local roads, 4.9 billion on local public transport, and 2.3 billion on other forms of transport.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/298675/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-transport-by-category/#:~:text=In the 2023/24 financial,on other forms of transport.

    I wonder how much tax is raised on road transport in comparison.
    These spreadsheet comparisons don't work because a city like London could not operate without a rail service; to build the road and parking capacity to accomodate everyone currently using public transport would cost at least as much.

    In fact, the best way to develop support for something like cycle infrastructure and bus lanes is to explain to motorists that those investments are effectively ones into the road network.
    You mean that the spreadsheets work all too well in showing how concentrated government transport spending is on certain areas.

    Now that may be fair enough - after all most government spending on health and social security is for the old and poor while most government spending on education is for the young.

    But in that case government should at least admit it and make a case for that strategy and acknowledge that other parts of the country are losing out from their local transport opportunities being restricted.

    Resources are limited, that's understood, and decisions have to be made.

    But they come with costs, including opportunity costs.

    You could subsidise a whole lot of buses for the rural poor and old for the cost of HS2.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    Fishing said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
    You need both. The problem is previous governments have gone we will move some civil servants out of London and fund some white elephant that will do it, but that doesn't sort it, while educational achievement in the North lags the South.

    However, all the talent from the North goes to the SE, because poor job prospects, poor infrastructure etc e.g I am not going to set up a business somewhere with poor internet, high crime, poor housing, poor connections to set of the country.

    And it comes back again and again, to also, you can't get f##k all built of any size, and it all ends up going through central government in London.

    --

    Edit - I imagine the brain drain from North to South doesn't help educational achievement in the North. If loads of smart motivated people leave, who are much more likely to be motivating their kids to strive to achieve. And that has knock on effect as your Mum / Dad has a well nice house / car, how come, well they have this good job...how did they get that....they got good A-levels, went to a good uni.
    Reading about Denise Coates and Bet365 in the Graun this morning, it looks like she stayed in her home town, runs the business from there, and has invested in the area, thereby proving that you don't have to go to London or the SE to be successful.
    Hmmm, kinda of. I'm originally from Stoke area, it is in an absolute and utter state and gets worse all the time. Bet365 is a large employer in the area (which is good), at one point John Caudwell was, but increasingly many of the jobs are in Eastern Europe and there is the dirty little secret of the Asian part of the business is where the big bucks come from.

    The main shopping / entertain part of Stoke, Hanley, since COVID is absolutely f##ed. Bet365 employs I think a few 1000 in Stoke, it is a drop in the bucket as loads of other good jobs have been lost year after year.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    I’m on “Avenue Xhorxh Bush”
  • Fishing said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
    You need both. The problem is previous governments have gone we will move some civil servants out of London and fund some white elephant that will do it, but that doesn't sort it, while educational achievement in the North lags the South.

    However, all the talent from the North goes to the SE, because poor job prospects, poor infrastructure etc e.g I am not going to set up a business somewhere with poor internet, high crime, poor housing, poor connections to set of the country.

    And it comes back again and again, to also, you can't get f##k all built of any size, and it all ends up going through central government in London.

    --

    Edit - I imagine the brain drain from North to South doesn't help educational achievement in the North. If loads of smart motivated people leave, who are much more likely to be motivating their kids to strive to achieve. And that has knock on effect as your Mum / Dad has a well nice house / car, how come, well they have this good job...how did they get that....they got good A-levels, went to a good uni.
    Reading about Denise Coates and Bet365 in the Graun this morning, it looks like she stayed in her home town, runs the business from there, and has invested in the area, thereby proving that you don't have to go to London or the SE to be successful.
    Hmmm, kinda of. I'm from Stoke, it is in an absolute and utter state and gets worse all the time. Bet365 is a large employer in the area (which is good), at one point John Caudwell was, but increasingly many of the jobs are in Eastern Europe and there is the dirty little secret of the Asian part of the business is where the big bucks come from.
    So if business growth in a depressed area doesn't help "level it up", what does?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
    Ah okay, so it’s not a total lack of information - but they still replaced the massive information display that’s been there in one form or another since the station opened, with a huge advertising board.

    I’ll take a random guess that most people don’t want to be spending much time in the station, they want to arrive close to the time their train leaves and quickly note the platform while walking through the concourse, not have to go looking for basic information. The whole point of a huge departures board is that you can still read it from across the concourse.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780
    Foxy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    While many Tory members are favourably inclined to Reform, I think fewer Tory voters are. Historically Tories aren't very big on tactical voting either. Encouraging it is likely to accelerate their journey to the plughole.

    Apart from the xenophobia, and not caring much about the environment, Reform voters are significantly to the left of the Conservatives. It isn't an easy gap to bridge from either side.
    Another thing is that Reform are a protest movement (and ego trip for its leaders) rather than a potential government.

    I think many/most Conservative voters hope to have a competent centre-right government implementing centre-right policies.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
    Many will. But far from all. There are middle class moderates and one-nation Tory types in these places too.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811
    Foxy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    While many Tory members are favourably inclined to Reform, I think fewer Tory voters are. Historically Tories aren't very big on tactical voting either. Encouraging it is likely to accelerate their journey to the plughole.

    Apart from the xenophobia, and not caring much about the environment, Reform voters are significantly to the left of the Conservatives. It isn't an easy gap to bridge from either side.
    Cleverly's biggest cheer was generated by his emphatic pledge ruling out a deal with Reform. Reform are not really all that popular with members and doing a deal would be incredibly divisive within the party. Won't happen.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Foxy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    While many Tory members are favourably inclined to Reform, I think fewer Tory voters are. Historically Tories aren't very big on tactical voting either. Encouraging it is likely to accelerate their journey to the plughole.

    Apart from the xenophobia, and not caring much about the environment, Reform voters are significantly to the left of the Conservatives. It isn't an easy gap to bridge from either side.
    Another thing is that Reform are a protest movement (and ego trip for its leaders) rather than a potential government.

    I think many/most Conservative voters hope to have a competent centre-right government implementing centre-right policies.
    well weve only been waiting about 30 years for one
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780

    Foxy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    While many Tory members are favourably inclined to Reform, I think fewer Tory voters are. Historically Tories aren't very big on tactical voting either. Encouraging it is likely to accelerate their journey to the plughole.

    Apart from the xenophobia, and not caring much about the environment, Reform voters are significantly to the left of the Conservatives. It isn't an easy gap to bridge from either side.
    Another thing is that Reform are a protest movement (and ego trip for its leaders) rather than a potential government.

    I think many/most Conservative voters hope to have a competent centre-right government implementing centre-right policies.
    I'm sure we've all seen those political graphs with an economic x axis and an authoritarian y axis.

    I'll suggest we need to include a y axis with positive being government and negative being protest.

    Labour and the Conservatives would be high in the positive zone with Reform, Greens, Corbynites being in the negative part.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
    Many will. But far from all. There are middle class moderates and one-nation Tory types in these places too.
    Tough one.

    If Reform are in second place to Labour and youve just been mugged by Rachel Reeves would you hold your nose and vote tactically ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5

    Fishing said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
    You need both. The problem is previous governments have gone we will move some civil servants out of London and fund some white elephant that will do it, but that doesn't sort it, while educational achievement in the North lags the South.

    However, all the talent from the North goes to the SE, because poor job prospects, poor infrastructure etc e.g I am not going to set up a business somewhere with poor internet, high crime, poor housing, poor connections to set of the country.

    And it comes back again and again, to also, you can't get f##k all built of any size, and it all ends up going through central government in London.

    --

    Edit - I imagine the brain drain from North to South doesn't help educational achievement in the North. If loads of smart motivated people leave, who are much more likely to be motivating their kids to strive to achieve. And that has knock on effect as your Mum / Dad has a well nice house / car, how come, well they have this good job...how did they get that....they got good A-levels, went to a good uni.
    Reading about Denise Coates and Bet365 in the Graun this morning, it looks like she stayed in her home town, runs the business from there, and has invested in the area, thereby proving that you don't have to go to London or the SE to be successful.
    Hmmm, kinda of. I'm from Stoke, it is in an absolute and utter state and gets worse all the time. Bet365 is a large employer in the area (which is good), at one point John Caudwell was, but increasingly many of the jobs are in Eastern Europe and there is the dirty little secret of the Asian part of the business is where the big bucks come from.
    So if business growth in a depressed area doesn't help "level it up", what does?
    No, I am saying that is one business. One key problem in Stoke, the schooling in appalling. It wasn't that many years ago the government had to send in specialist team to take over all the local school and restart from scratch. Not one failing school, all of them. I think they were ranked in the bottom 10 regions on Ofsted reviews.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
    Euston is weirdly secretive about what platform trains are going to depart from - such information is highly prized and the subject of rumour. I think there are paid-for apps which tell you. The result is that once the platform is announced, 400 anxious travellers bolt for the platform in the hope ofgetting a seat.
    Obviously this is bad for passengers. But I don't see who benefits from such secrecy. Presumably someone thinks this better for Euston than the convetional approach, and I'd love to know why.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    Which is a failure to explain HS2, which would help extend rail services to more people by freeing up capacity on local lines.

    I agree that bus services are by the far the most important thing to fix though, and not just in rural areas. From richest to poorest income deciles, travel mode looks something like:

    Rail (flat distribution except for a big spike in decile 10, mainly because most commuter services head into London)
    Car* (drops off significantly in income deciles 1 and 2)
    Metro/trams etc
    Bus (lots more use in deciles 1-4, and this has seen the biggest fall since 2010)

    *Car use is interesting, because the mileage and car ownership distributions look quite different. Rich people tend to have more than one car and do relatively shorter journeys; poor people have one or no cars and do longer ones if they do. That's why motoring taxation has to be calibrated carefully and the current system is wrong, imo.
    You need to add equal cycling and especially pedestrian services to that.

    After all, every journey, for everyone, starts as a pedestrian.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    Cookie said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
    Euston is weirdly secretive about what platform trains are going to depart from - such information is highly prized and the subject of rumour. I think there are paid-for apps which tell you. The result is that once the platform is announced, 400 anxious travellers bolt for the platform in the hope ofgetting a seat.
    Obviously this is bad for passengers. But I don't see who benefits from such secrecy. Presumably someone thinks this better for Euston than the convetional approach, and I'd love to know why.
    RealTimeTrains (RTT) is your friend for platform allocations.`
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Cookie said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
    Euston is weirdly secretive about what platform trains are going to depart from - such information is highly prized and the subject of rumour. I think there are paid-for apps which tell you. The result is that once the platform is announced, 400 anxious travellers bolt for the platform in the hope ofgetting a seat.
    Obviously this is bad for passengers. But I don't see who benefits from such secrecy. Presumably someone thinks this better for Euston than the convetional approach, and I'd love to know why.
    Paddington is the same. The big inter-city routes get announced 10 minutes before departure - with similar traveller tsunamis flooding the announced platforms.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited October 5
    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
    Many will. But far from all. There are middle class moderates and one-nation Tory types in these places too.
    Tough one.

    If Reform are in second place to Labour and youve just been mugged by Rachel Reeves would you hold your nose and vote tactically ?
    No.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    edited October 5
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
    I think a focus on local elections in 2025 and following years etc are a good focus here.

    Ashfield should be worth watching, the Ashfield Independent Council Leader, Jason Zadrozny, is due to be tried in Northampton Crown Court starting Feb 24 2025 on umpteen charges from cocaine possession to tax evasion.

    All the County seats are up for Election in 2025, and the AIs currently hold all 10.

    Opportunity for Reform. Expect the Leeanderthal Man to direct his fire, including the fabricated bits he makes up or exaggerates for sectarian impact, in that direction.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
    Many will. But far from all. There are middle class moderates and one-nation Tory types in these places too.
    Tough one.

    If Reform are in second place to Labour and youve just been mugged by Rachel Reeves would you hold your nose and vote tactically ?
    Well I would, but I prefer Reform to Labour. But for many Reform are beyond the pale.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    Sounds like this is going to be a much tougher task than British Columbia to sell the merits to the Flint Knapper Weekly readers....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980
    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    The Pristina Tourist Board are clearly not sponsoring this trip.
  • Fishing said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    We should level up people, not places. All experience shows that people are more productive in London and some other cities in the south east than in rotting parts of the north. We should stop obsessing about areas that have no economic future, no matter how many overpriced train links we build there or white elephant factories are built and fail there, and start to focus on our strengths.

    Labour mobility is an important driver of economic growth, and something we as a country do really badly. Those that want to should be able to move, rather than forced to stay in place by a huge house price differential and artificially high public sector salaries, minimum wages and welfare subsidies.
    You need both. The problem is previous governments have gone we will move some civil servants out of London and fund some white elephant that will do it, but that doesn't sort it, while educational achievement in the North lags the South.

    However, all the talent from the North goes to the SE, because poor job prospects, poor infrastructure etc e.g I am not going to set up a business somewhere with poor internet, high crime, poor housing, poor connections to set of the country.

    And it comes back again and again, to also, you can't get f##k all built of any size, and it all ends up going through central government in London.

    --

    Edit - I imagine the brain drain from North to South doesn't help educational achievement in the North. If loads of smart motivated people leave, who are much more likely to be motivating their kids to strive to achieve. And that has knock on effect as your Mum / Dad has a well nice house / car, how come, well they have this good job...how did they get that....they got good A-levels, went to a good uni.
    Reading about Denise Coates and Bet365 in the Graun this morning, it looks like she stayed in her home town, runs the business from there, and has invested in the area, thereby proving that you don't have to go to London or the SE to be successful.
    Hmmm, kinda of. I'm from Stoke, it is in an absolute and utter state and gets worse all the time. Bet365 is a large employer in the area (which is good), at one point John Caudwell was, but increasingly many of the jobs are in Eastern Europe and there is the dirty little secret of the Asian part of the business is where the big bucks come from.
    So if business growth in a depressed area doesn't help "level it up", what does?
    Fast broadband, green space, business hubs, good vocational education, the treasury changing its snog avoid algorithm to one that ignores local wages when it comes to transport infrastructure investment.

    We should all have the chance to be an engaged citizen in a thriving national community.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    The Pristina Tourist Board are clearly not sponsoring this trip.
    No, they’re not. The Gazette has given me £400 to spend on 2 days in Pristina (inc flights and everything) and the same immediately after in Geneva. They are respectively the cheapest and most expensive cities in Europe

    Having said that, I rather like Pristina BECAUSE it is so fucked up, ugly and weird. Like one of those quirky and mangy and starving but inexplicably cheerful stray dogs you adopt on travels. The people are incredibly friendly. A massive kebab is £1
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    edited October 5
    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    That is truly horrible. Looks like cladding was supposed to be fitted but then following Grenfell, they thought better of fitting something that so obviously was unwise to wrap around a library full of paper...

    The topping of slowly deflating footballs is a lovely feature.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited October 5
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    The Pristina Tourist Board are clearly not sponsoring this trip.
    No, they’re not. The Gazette has given me £400 to spend on 2 days in Pristina (inc flights and everything) and the same immediately after in Geneva. They are respectively the cheapest and most expensive cities in Europe

    Having said that, I rather like Pristina BECAUSE it is so fucked up, ugly and weird. Like one of those quirky and mangy and starving but inexplicably cheerful stray dogs you adopt on travels. The people are incredibly friendly. A massive kebab is £1
    Just £400 for 2 days in Geneva...well that is going to suck! Bread and cheese with a bottle of pop for every meal while staying in the YMCA...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    edited October 5
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    Which is a failure to explain HS2, which would help extend rail services to more people by freeing up capacity on local lines.

    I agree that bus services are by the far the most important thing to fix though, and not just in rural areas. From richest to poorest income deciles, travel mode looks something like:

    Rail (flat distribution except for a big spike in decile 10, mainly because most commuter services head into London)
    Car* (drops off significantly in income deciles 1 and 2)
    Metro/trams etc
    Bus (lots more use in deciles 1-4, and this has seen the biggest fall since 2010)

    *Car use is interesting, because the mileage and car ownership distributions look quite different. Rich people tend to have more than one car and do relatively shorter journeys; poor people have one or no cars and do longer ones if they do. That's why motoring taxation has to be calibrated carefully and the current system is wrong, imo.
    You need to add equal cycling and especially pedestrian services to that.

    After all, every journey, for everyone, starts as a pedestrian.
    Annoyingly, a lot of the surveys people use to do this analysis don't collect that information.

    Emails have been sent. AOB raised. I shall continue the fight.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    That is truly horrible. Looks like cladding was supposed to be fitted but then following Grenfell, they thought better of fitting something that so obviously was unwise to wrap around a library full of paper...
    The interior is definitely of the time when it was built https://www.worldofinteriors.com/story/national-library-kosovo
    and I actually quite like it although I see the point about practicality.

    The outside, however is just awful
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    edited October 5

    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    In the 2023/24 financial year, the government of the United Kingdom spent approximately 26.8 billion British pounds on Railways, compared with 6.1 billion on national roads, six billion on local roads, 4.9 billion on local public transport, and 2.3 billion on other forms of transport.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/298675/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-transport-by-category/#:~:text=In the 2023/24 financial,on other forms of transport.

    I wonder how much tax is raised on road transport in comparison.
    These spreadsheet comparisons don't work because a city like London could not operate without a rail service; to build the road and parking capacity to accomodate everyone currently using public transport would cost at least as much.

    In fact, the best way to develop support for something like cycle infrastructure and bus lanes is to explain to motorists that those investments are effectively ones into the road network.
    You mean that the spreadsheets work all too well in showing how concentrated government transport spending is on certain areas.

    Now that may be fair enough - after all most government spending on health and social security is for the old and poor while most government spending on education is for the young.

    But in that case government should at least admit it and make a case for that strategy and acknowledge that other parts of the country are losing out from their local transport opportunities being restricted.

    Resources are limited, that's understood, and decisions have to be made.

    But they come with costs, including opportunity costs.

    You could subsidise a whole lot of buses for the rural poor and old for the cost of HS2.
    No, I meant that just because something comes under "rail" in a spreadsheet, it doesn't mean it doesn't help out the roads (see freight in particular). It's an ecosystem - I reckon a good public transport system also helps with active travel, for example.

    And if you're borrowing to invest and borrowing costs don't increase too much, the opportunity costs aren't quite as important as usual. You can just keep going, as long as the markets are happy with your plans and output will outgrow the debt.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    edited October 5
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    What about Zarah Sultana. From her various media appearances she is always having a dig at Starmer and labour. She is not keeping her head down to try to earn back the whip.

    She seems to be positioning herself as an opposition speaker.

    I also couldn’t see her winning as an Indy.

    Sultana is a great communicator, her TikTok following is particularly numerous.

    I can see her being the standard bearer of the Labour left, though clearly Starmer is no fan.

    As most opposition to Starmer is that he has been to Tory both in policy and in troughing, his real threat is from the left. If he can win back some of the Green and Indy vote, as well as GOTV then Labour gets a second term. I suspect he will stand down in 2028 to refresh the party.
    It's early days but Reform was second to Labour in 90 seats. With tactical voting by Tories, Reform could take 55 of those seats.
    On my EMA, Labour nationally is down from 35% to 32%, while the Tories are holding at about 24%. This would lead to about 20 Tory gains from Labour.

    So currently Labour would lose about 75 seats to Reform/Tory plus 6? losing the Labour whip, means Labour would be down from 412 to 331 seats, a bare majority.

    But another four years to go.
    It depends whether Reform stick around.

    If they are there in four years' time, and still polling in the teens, then yes, I think formerly Tory voters in places like Grimsby, Bradford South, Llannelli, would vote Reform to stick it to Labour.
    I think a focus on local elections in 2025 and following years etc are a good focus here.

    Ashfield should be worth watching, the Ashfield Independent Council Leader, Jason Zadrozny, is due to be tried in Northampton Crown Court starting Feb 24 2025 on umpteen charges from cocaine possession to tax evasion.

    All the County seats are up for Election in 2025, and the AIs currently hold all 10.

    Opportunity for Reform. Expect the Leeanderthal Man to direct his fire, including the fabricated bits he makes up or exaggerates for sectarian impact, in that direction.
    Reflecting further, the Notts County Council Elections should also tell us something about how Mr Starmer is doing.

    Having chucked all of the Tory MPs except Blow Job Bob into the dustbin of history, how much of the current dominance of Conservative seats turns Labour or Reform will be interesting.

    Current numbers are Con 37, Lab 15, Ash Ind 10, Ind 3, Lib Dem 1.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    The Pristina Tourist Board are clearly not sponsoring this trip.
    No, they’re not. The Gazette has given me £400 to spend on 2 days in Pristina (inc flights and everything) and the same immediately after in Geneva. They are respectively the cheapest and most expensive cities in Europe

    Having said that, I rather like Pristina BECAUSE it is so fucked up, ugly and weird. Like one of those quirky and mangy and starving but inexplicably cheerful stray dogs you adopt on travels. The people are incredibly friendly. A massive kebab is £1
    Just £400 for 2 days in Geneva...well that is going to suck! Bread and cheese with a bottle of pop for every meal while staying in the YMCA...
    Including flights it is extremely hard. I have managed to swerve a dorm room but I’m in a terrible Airbnb

    I’ve got about £50 left for food and entertainment so I’m envisaging a lot of walks by lake Geneva. And more kebabs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,980
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    The Pristina Tourist Board are clearly not sponsoring this trip.
    No, they’re not. The Gazette has given me £400 to spend on 2 days in Pristina (inc flights and everything) and the same immediately after in Geneva. They are respectively the cheapest and most expensive cities in Europe

    Having said that, I rather like Pristina BECAUSE it is so fucked up, ugly and weird. Like one of those quirky and mangy and starving but inexplicably cheerful stray dogs you adopt on travels. The people are incredibly friendly. A massive kebab is £1
    You’re going to want to save as much of that cash as possible, because Geneva is *really* damn expensive.

    Alternatively, enjoy living like a king for 48 hours, because you’re going to be a pauper in Switzerland!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    Cookie said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Euston has (immediately, as of right now) on the orders of @LouHaigh turned off its annoying giant advertising board that replaced the departure board. But the thing is… it was purposely designed to be annoying, to cover up for lack of investment.

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1842195787280793714

    And of course brought in revenue.

    So they just got rid of the departures board because everyone was looking at it, so now everyone has to walk round the station trying to work out which trains go from which platforms? Which idiot came up with that idea?
    Very much agree. I could not believe it when I cam back from France earlier this month and the Departures Board which could be seen from everywhere in the Concourse was trying to sell me airfreshner, Glade as it happened. This must be a case, like Gary Linaker with his crisps where most people would make a point of choosing a different brand because of the advertising.
    I had incorrectly assumed, having not been there for years, that they’d replaced the old departures board with a new one that also incorporated advertising space, which would make sense. I hadn’t realised that they had left no departures board at all, because why the hell would you have a main line terminus station with 18 platforms and no departures boards?
    There were departure boards, just in the middle of the concourse. There was some analysis that found this actually helped with crowding with people spreading out a bit more.

    But the giant advertising screens were just a bit ridiculous.
    Euston is weirdly secretive about what platform trains are going to depart from - such information is highly prized and the subject of rumour. I think there are paid-for apps which tell you. The result is that once the platform is announced, 400 anxious travellers bolt for the platform in the hope ofgetting a seat.
    Obviously this is bad for passengers. But I don't see who benefits from such secrecy. Presumably someone thinks this better for Euston than the convetional approach, and I'd love to know why.
    The issue Euston has is that passengers use the same entrance for arrivals and departures - so you can't call people to a train until the recent arrival has emptied. One of the fixes that was implemented last November was to delay the platform announcement times - which reduced the two way use of the entrance but resulted in the Euston sprint becoming unavoidable.

    Worse because it doesn't have enough platforms trains don't arrive in logical positions so one day I train is at platform 7 and the next platform 4. And if you watch realtimetrains you see trains change platform as they approach the station to say go to platform 4 - but that isn't empty so they get routed to platform 6.

    The FOI request I did regarding Euston is rather interesting what they are avoiding saying but you can read between the lines..
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m staring at maybe the world’s most hideous building. The national library of Pristina

    It’s like Hitler’s bunker encased in monumentalist chicken wire. It’s one of those modern buildings with a fascinating contrast between exterior and interior. Yes from the outside it’s ugly - but once you get inside - then it’s also ugly. Dingy and cramped

    The park around it is so covered in litter I suspect they recently hosted the biannual Balkan Littering Festival

    The Pristina Tourist Board are clearly not sponsoring this trip.
    No, they’re not. The Gazette has given me £400 to spend on 2 days in Pristina (inc flights and everything) and the same immediately after in Geneva. They are respectively the cheapest and most expensive cities in Europe

    Having said that, I rather like Pristina BECAUSE it is so fucked up, ugly and weird. Like one of those quirky and mangy and starving but inexplicably cheerful stray dogs you adopt on travels. The people are incredibly friendly. A massive kebab is £1
    Just £400 for 2 days in Geneva...well that is going to suck! Bread and cheese with a bottle of pop for every meal while staying in the YMCA...
    Including flights it is extremely hard. I have managed to swerve a dorm room but I’m in a terrible Airbnb

    I’ve got about £50 left for food and entertainment so I’m envisaging a lot of walks by lake Geneva. And more kebabs
    I suspect 1 single Kebab - £50 won't go far even if you find a supermarket...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    My budget is so tight in Geneva I’ve frankly given up all hope of a top class international escort offering gold medal oral
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    edited October 5
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    Which is a failure to explain HS2, which would help extend rail services to more people by freeing up capacity on local lines.

    I agree that bus services are by the far the most important thing to fix though, and not just in rural areas. From richest to poorest income deciles, travel mode looks something like:

    Rail (flat distribution except for a big spike in decile 10, mainly because most commuter services head into London)
    Car* (drops off significantly in income deciles 1 and 2)
    Metro/trams etc
    Bus (lots more use in deciles 1-4, and this has seen the biggest fall since 2010)

    *Car use is interesting, because the mileage and car ownership distributions look quite different. Rich people tend to have more than one car and do relatively shorter journeys; poor people have one or no cars and do longer ones if they do. That's why motoring taxation has to be calibrated carefully and the current system is wrong, imo.
    You need to add equal cycling and especially pedestrian services to that.

    After all, every journey, for everyone, starts as a pedestrian.
    Annoyingly, a lot of the surveys people use to do this analysis don't collect that information.

    Emails have been sent. AOB raised. I shall continue the fight.
    This may interest you.

    A new experimental discussion starter sheet from Wheels for Wellbeing about crossings between different modes, entitled "Who's crossing Whose crossing?". It's brand new:

    https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/whos-crossing-whose-crossing/

    (It's a few pages long, so I printed out the PDF version and had a look over a mealtime yesterday. - so I can give feedback.)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780
    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I've thought for a while the next big political movement in this country (and more widely in other parts of Europe) will be something along the lines of Wagenknecht's BSW party in Germany.

    This evolution will further diminish the relevance of terms like "right" and "left" which are already only used either as laxy short hand or perjorative terms.

    Reform, for example, has, I believe, a dichotomy between elements of the leadership (Tice and Farage in particular) and some of the membership. Yes, resistance to immigration is their glue but just as every other party, it is evolving into a broader church attracting those who are culturally conservative and strongly patriotic or nationalist.

    The fault line is, as it often is, around the role of the State and economics. Some might prefer the small-State, low tax model (I'm sure Tice and Farage, who are basically unreconstructed Thatcherites, do) but other parts of Reform want an active, interventionist State with public money spent, not, as they see it, on migrants, but on improving the areas in which they live.

    This is why Johnson's "levelling up" agenda was so popular with ex-Labour voters in 2019 and why, when it wasn't delivered, the sense of betrayal drove hundreds of thousands of those ex-2019 Conservatives into the arms of Reform.

    I'm no Conservative or Reform supporter but I can see the attraction and desirability of levelling up - the cutting back of HS2 by Sunak was probably the final nail in the coffin and it may be Reform's local strength will increase quickly (we see this in Blackpool and Amber Valley, two classic WWC areas which have frankly been let down by successive Governments of all stripes).

    How will Reform evolve? It won't be Farage's plaything for ever and I suspect it will become something less like a British AfD or VOX and more like a British BSW.

    Depends on what is meant by 'levelling up'.

    Northern England currently has full employment for the first time for 50+ years together with affordable housing.

    If you're a WWC teenager in Amber Valley you're opportunities are better than those of any previous generation.

    But opportunities are not guarantees.

    The right to try is not the same as a right to have.

    Regrettably many will fail to take these opportunities and will be 'left behind'.

    Just as there are so many 'left behind' from previous generations.

    And for these 'levelling up' is really just a different way of saying 'take it from them and give it to me'.

    With the 'them' often being people like themselves who have been far more successful.
    I'm sure you wouldn't either but I don't just define "levelling up" in terms of house prices or employment propects (important though those factors are). It's also about improving local services and infrastructure particularly transport to alleviate how difficult many parts of rural England are without access to a car.

    It's also about countering the perception successive Governments have spent more on London and parts of the south than rural and provincial England and within that notion is the perception public money hasn't been well or wisely spent and that triggers both cultural and immigration-related concerns.

    I agree the right to try is not the right to have but many would argue the scales have been tipped as to make it almost impossible even if you try and perhaps all they want is to even out that perceived lack of opportunity.
    You're right about the travel difficulties of the poor and rural.

    And the way to help them is through better roads and buses.

    Now compare with how much politicians, or the media or PB talk about roads and buses compared with trains and especially HS2.

    If you're old or poor or in a rural areas what does HS2 mean to you ? Nothing but an expensive way for rich people to go to and from London.
    Which is a failure to explain HS2, which would help extend rail services to more people by freeing up capacity on local lines.

    I agree that bus services are by the far the most important thing to fix though, and not just in rural areas. From richest to poorest income deciles, travel mode looks something like:

    Rail (flat distribution except for a big spike in decile 10, mainly because most commuter services head into London)
    Car* (drops off significantly in income deciles 1 and 2)
    Metro/trams etc
    Bus (lots more use in deciles 1-4, and this has seen the biggest fall since 2010)

    *Car use is interesting, because the mileage and car ownership distributions look quite different. Rich people tend to have more than one car and do relatively shorter journeys; poor people have one or no cars and do longer ones if they do. That's why motoring taxation has to be calibrated carefully and the current system is wrong, imo.
    Explaining about capacity on local railway lines means little to nothing when you're talking to people who don't use local railway lines.

    There are some people who use rail only for local commuting, there are some people who use rail only for an occasional day out in London, there are some people who haven't been on a train for five years, ten years or longer.
This discussion has been closed.