Support for an elected head of state up by a quarter since Charles became king

System · September 1

Support for an elected head of state up by a quarter since Charles became king – politicalbetting.com

Two-thirds of Britons support the continuation of the monarchy, with little shift in opinion since Charles became KingMonarchy: 65% (-2, vs 14 September 2022)Elected head of state: 25% (+5)https://t.co/whCsW8tdDp pic.twitter.com/T7SGVW25wa

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles · September 1

Ten Hag's at the wheel.

https://x.com/LiverpoolPhotox/status/1830286176076681596

Omnium · September 1

On your lack of head beit.

Casino_Royale · September 1

Not a huge amount to worry about here, although I'd prefer it was c.75% in favour. Which is where William is.

Those sort of figures suggest there are certain constituencies that are more strongly against with the bulk of the rest of the country pretty clearly in favour.

MustaphaMondeo · September 1

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.

TheScreamingEagles · September 1

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.

I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.

Casino_Royale · September 1

Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.

Benpointer · September 1

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.

Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)

Carnyx · September 1

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.

Looking at the linky ...

"The only parts of the public that are the exceptions are in Scotland, which evenly splits 41% in a favour of a monarchy and 43% in favour of an elected head of state, and 18-24 year olds, only a third of whom (35%) want to maintain a monarchy going forwards"

Carnyx · September 1

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)

He would bribe the Guards and Parachute [edit, on checking] Division to let him take over?

Eabhal · September 1

Carnyx said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Looking at the linky ...

"The only parts of the public that are the exceptions are in Scotland, which evenly splits 41% in a favour of a monarchy and 43% in favour of an elected head of state, and 18-24 year olds, only a third of whom (35%) want to maintain a monarchy going forwards"

Someone needs to explain to these people that the countries left-wing Scots want to model the country on are nearly all monarchies - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada.

It's a waste of time and energy worrying about it.

Omnium · September 1

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
He would bribe the Guards and Parachute [edit, on checking] Division to let him take over?

The Parachute division is now I presume a collection of Captains and Majors that'll be looked after? We've never lacked Captains and Majors.

JohnO · September 1

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.

Jenrick would be awful, but I suspect the members will elect him.

Luckyguy1983 · September 1

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.

I haven't seen the video you mention, but he is *very* studied and careful in his answers. I think he knows he's the one to beat and can't bear the thought of buggering it up with an unguarded thought. But it can come across as unnatural.

Sunil_Prasannan · September 1

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.

I thought you were PB's self-styled Tory Boy!

Luckyguy1983 · September 1

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/the-real-culprit-in-britains-bond-meltdown-liz-truss-bank-of-england-inside-job-c320b5a7?st=mi457amxy819cx4&reflink=article_email_share

I haven't got a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, so I can't provide much insight into the full piece, but it's good to know that news of the Bank's culpability in the minibudget kerfuffle is getting round.

It turns out the outbreak of bond vigilantism that laid low Britain’s financial markets in autumn 2022 was an inside job. That’s the belated conclusion of new research from the central bank at the heart of the fiasco that brought down a prime minister and allegedly discredited supply-side economics.

Quite.

kinabalu · September 1

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)

It's the tv programme I remember most clearly and most fondly from that time when I was a teenager. I was SO into it. I actually wouldn't watch a repeat just in case it didn't hold up. That would be too sad.

hamiltonace · September 1

It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

boulay · September 1

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

Could it be argued that these far-right parties fulfill a useful pressure valve? They won’t get into power but allow sections of society to feel they have a voice.

I know this is a hostage to fortune as they won’t get into power until they do but I think there is still enough of a social memory in Europe where enough people from the spectrum will join together to keep the extremes out.

Don’t know how I types that, I’m shitfaced.

OnlyLivingBoy · September 1

I'm surprised Charles's ratings aren't higher, he's been doing a good job IMHO, especially considering his illness. I've always liked him, he seems to combine a sense of duty with a genuine interest in the country he governs. Much as I liked his mother, too, I don't think she was very interested in anything other than dogs and horses. I also can't help feeling he's had a rather difficult life in a lot of ways (obviously not in the material sense, but in plenty of other dimensions) and I admire him for managing to get through it.
On the brain drain issues raised earlier, I think it certainly is a thing among sections of the highly paid. The people I hear it from most tend to be wealthy Continental Europeans, and it is more of a progressive disenchantment with the UK that started with Brexit and is now intensifying with the thought of higher CGT, VAT on school fees, etc. For wealthy Britons of a rightward leaning persuasion I imagine it is also a sense of disenchantment and alienation associated with political defeat, that sense of looking at the country with fresh eyes and not knowing if you belong there anymore. Giving up more of your hard earned money in those circumstances must feel like the icing on the cake! All I can say, as a left wing pro European, is that I know what that feels like, and the feeling does pass somewhat. But why not try living abroad for a bit, I've done it twice and gained a lot in both cases. You might also come back to the UK with a greater appreciation of its complexities and a renewed desire to contribute to its future prosperity.

Omnium · September 1

Luckyguy1983 said:
https://www.wsj.com/opinion/the-real-culprit-in-britains-bond-meltdown-liz-truss-bank-of-england-inside-job-c320b5a7?st=mi457amxy819cx4&reflink=article_email_share

I haven't got a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, so I can't provide much insight into the full piece, but it's good to know that news of the Bank's culpability in the minibudget kerfuffle is getting round.

It turns out the outbreak of bond vigilantism that laid low Britain’s financial markets in autumn 2022 was an inside job. That’s the belated conclusion of new research from the central bank at the heart of the fiasco that brought down a prime minister and allegedly discredited supply-side economics.

Quite.

Pointless unless we can see the BoE's conclusions properly.

Bailey has been uniquely poor as BoE Governor, and he can't escape by shifting blame around to other areas.

Benpointer · September 1

kinabalu said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
It's the tv programme I remember most clearly and most fondly from that time when I was a teenager. I was SO into it. I actually wouldn't watch a repeat just in case it didn't hold up. That would be too sad.

We've watched it a couple of times in the past 20 years and it holds up pretty well overall. Of course the picture quality and production sets are fairly dire compared to today's shows but the plot, characterisation and acting are all very good.

It's probably due for a big money remake tbh.

Benpointer · September 1

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.

NickPalmer · September 1

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

The BSW are interesting - they don't fit easily into the left-right spectrum. Whether they can broaden their support beyond Wagenknecht without finding that one of the new leaders is an extremist even in German terms remains to be seen

Carnyx · September 1

Omnium said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
He would bribe the Guards and Parachute [edit, on checking] Division to let him take over?
The Parachute division is now I presume a collection of Captains and Majors that'll be looked after? We've never lacked Captains and Majors.

I was a bit surprised, not having quite kept up, to discover the Guards and the Paras are now in the same unit. Given what I've read about their very different Zeitgeists.

FF43 · September 1

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff

Fishing · September 1

Eabhal said:

Fishing said:

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:
People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.
One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.
Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.
I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.
There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.
Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!
And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.
Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.
Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.
Why are you so angry recently?
denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?
You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂
Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.
Pay increases in the public sector should be much lower than in the private sector, as pay should increase in line with productivity and productivity is increasing far slower (or actually falling) in government than in industry.

And takehome pay should be far lower in the public sector for comparable jobs in the private sector because public sector pensions and job security are far better.
There is no "should be" in a competitive labour market. It's not values based, and salaries do not reflect productivity but rather the demand and supply for particular roles.

This effect is summarised here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect. And is also why I think labour-intensive jobs like healthcare will come to dominate our economy over time.

The Baumol effect, though useful in many contexts, assumes perfect competition in seamless labour markets, while instead we have plenty of transactions costs, a large pool of economically inactive and a monopsony buyer for healthcare and education in the shape of the government which can even change the visa rules to import employees if it wants.

So for all those reasons, the Baumol effect should not be a binding constraint on public sector pay. The reason it has risen so fast in the last few months is because the unions have got their puppets into office. Nothing more.

nico679 · September 1

Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

algarkirk · September 1

NickPalmer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

The BSW are interesting - they don't fit easily into the left-right spectrum. Whether they can broaden their support beyond Wagenknecht without finding that one of the new leaders is an extremist even in German terms remains to be seen

A straw in the wind is that the Economist's Charlemagne this week is noting the shift of the European left away from support for inward migration/open doors refugee policy etc.

Eabhal · September 1

Fishing said:

Eabhal said:

Fishing said:

FF43 said:

Taz said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Nigelb said:

bondegezou said:

Fairliered said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Malmesbury said:

Fairliered said:
People worried about paying higher taxes are worried about seeing no return for their taxes. What is needed is quick and easy evidence of improvement. Something like a blitz on potholes would do the job. Unfortunately, fixing the NHS, our infrastructure or the asylum system won’t be quick or easy, but if people see something positive happening, they will be more patient with fixing the big issues.
One thing that I find interesting is the *type* of people who are thinking of moving.

Not just business owners, but employees on high salaries. And given the collapse in contracting, these people are nearly all on PAYE.

So the idea that they aren’t paying a lot of tax already is simply impossible.

I would never consider leaving England under any circumstances short of civil war. But from a purely monetary point of view it would certainly be tempting. Currently I pay 49% of my turnover in tax which I think is a ridiculous state of affairs.

More likely, as Labour destroy our energy independence and we move to more and more imports, I will probably move back to working overseas permanently on rotation. Not something I want to do but needs must. It improves both my job prospects and my tax situation. I will still be providing the UK with oil and gas - I will just be doing it from the Middle East or South America.
Many multinationals are offering working from any country they have an office in.

It’s the flip side of WFH.
I seem to recall a lot of Tories saying WFH was terrible and people needed to go back to the office.
There’s a difference between them, who can be trusted to WFH, and the oiks they employ, who can’t.
Ah, yes, like there’s a difference between them, who can be trusted with freedom of movement, and the oiks they employ, who can’t!
And whom they conned into voting for Brexit.
Conned into having full employment and pay rises.

But how terrible that they've lost their 'right' to pick turnips in Transylvania.
Yet strangely those pay rises and full employment are forcing Brexiteer citizens of nowhere to flee these shores as the public sector has to match pay and conditions to keep staff.

It's almost as if they don't give a damn about levelling up.
Why are you so angry recently?
denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

If you think the grief cycle is the only cause of anger then you are pretty foolish.

What do you think I am grieving?
You think bunging cash at public sector workers is levelling up. 😂
Agreeing pay settlements in line with national averages isn't sensibly called "bunging cash at public sector workers". Question is why the previous government of drift didn't do this literally years ago and avoid the inevitable degradation of public services, which at the end of the day is their job to provide.
Pay increases in the public sector should be much lower than in the private sector, as pay should increase in line with productivity and productivity is increasing far slower (or actually falling) in government than in industry.

And takehome pay should be far lower in the public sector for comparable jobs in the private sector because public sector pensions and job security are far better.
There is no "should be" in a competitive labour market. It's not values based, and salaries do not reflect productivity but rather the demand and supply for particular roles.

This effect is summarised here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect. And is also why I think labour-intensive jobs like healthcare will come to dominate our economy over time.
The Baumol effect, though useful in many contexts, assumes perfect competition in seamless labour markets, while instead we have plenty of transactions costs, a large pool of economically inactive and a monopsony buyer for healthcare and education in the shape of the government which can even change the visa rules to import employees if it wants.

So for all those reasons, the Baumol effect should not be a binding constraint on public sector pay. The reason it has risen so fast in the last few months is because the unions have got their puppets into office. Nothing more.

You're absolutely right about the monopsony power that the government has over healthcare workers. It's like Tesco buying all the milk and screwing farmers over. It's how they got away with below inflation pay for the last 10 years.

The threat of union action is the response to that, and rebalances the power in the relationship. The other is the ongoing threat of countries like Australia paying doctors and nurses so much more, so we end up paying for all the training and reaping none of the benefit - it's not just mega-rich PBers who can take their work elsewhere.

Sunak would have ended up agreeing to the same pay increases, but 6 months later in the midst of the winter pressure in the NHS and tanking support among the pensioners upon which the Tory vote depends.

LostPassword · September 1

Charles has been monarch for two years now. I would hazard a guess that those Republican who were daft enough to think that they only had to wait for him to become King for support for the monarchy to crater are slowly coming to realise that it's not going to be that easy.

Nunu5 · September 1

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.

Driver · September 1

From the headline I guessed 20 to 25, and I feel quite proud of that guess.

Benpointer · September 1

O/T for Lolz:

RFK Jr. Sues North Carolina to Get Off the Ballot

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/election/article291741375.html

algarkirk · September 1

Polls on the royals are only of local and passing interest. The important matter is that the current settlement (except in developmental detail) will continue to stand.

The reason is obvious. Which political party will do the following (100% of this has to be achieved, with no mistakes):

1) Decide that party policy is to end the crown as it now stands
2) Stick it in a manifesto at a GE
3) Win the election
4) Legislate for, hold and win a referendum on the matter
5) Pass the relevant legislation (a constitutional drafting and parliamentary nightmare), bring it into force on date X and implement it.

Every single stage of this is obvious and complete unalloyed suicide.

As yet no party has ever thought about this even WRT disestablishment of the Church of England. It is simply filed under 'Too Difficult'. Monarchy is 100 times harder.

DecrepiterJohnL · September 1

OT Paralympics medal table

1. China 30 gold medals
2. Dear old Blighty 23
3. Brazil 8
4. USA, France, Australia, NL 6 each.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/paralympics-paris-2024/medals

Barnesian · September 1

Nunu5 said:

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.

One lives in hope

Benpointer · September 1

DecrepiterJohnL said:
OT Paralympics medal table

1. China 30 gold medals
2. Dear old Blighty 23
3. Brazil 8
4. USA, France, Australia, NL 6 each.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/paralympics-paris-2024/medals

We did invent disability sport after all.

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 1

FF43 said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff

AfD is skinhead, NOT "sensible" right in Germany.

Most interesting development, is formation AND initial performance of BSW = Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice, on platform of left socialist, anti-capitalist economics, anti-immigration and social conservatism, EU-skeptic nationalism.

nico679 · September 1

Nunu5 said:

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.

True , Jenrick really is the worst choice .

viewcode · September 1

Carnyx said:

Omnium said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
He would bribe the Guards and Parachute [edit, on checking] Division to let him take over?
The Parachute division is now I presume a collection of Captains and Majors that'll be looked after? We've never lacked Captains and Majors.
I was a bit surprised, not having quite kept up, to discover the Guards and the Paras are now in the same unit. Given what I've read about their very different Zeitgeists.

I thought the Guards were for upper-class shits who can afford a horse, and the Paras were for working class c***s. How do they fit together?

darkage · September 1

Benpointer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.

I'm not really sure why the 'far right' is a threat to 'democracy'. Isn't at some level the rise of 'far right' parties a feature of democracy? ie they represent public opinion. Even though you hate it, they still represent popular opinion. It is not a solution to outlaw and imprison 20% of the voting public, even though some self defined 'centrist' politicians suggest this. In terms of 'western democracy', I would definitely see this authoritarian instinct as a greater threat, than that posed by the populist parties themselves.

What is quite unsettling/alarming from my point of view is that there are lots of people who, despite advanced education, and years of life experience, would still be quite happy to live in a authoritarian system which limits political expression; on the basis that they believe the government to hold similar views to their own.

SandyRentool · September 1

A baby born shortly before the death of the Queen is likely to have to endure five monarchs during their lifetime.

Unless we manage to embrace democracy at some point in the next 80 years.

rottenborough · September 1

nico679 said:

Nunu5 said:

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.
True , Jenrick really is the worst choice .

Yep. But he will be a disaster with the public and they will throw him out within two or three years.

Theuniondivvie · September 1

Carnyx said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Looking at the linky ...

"The only parts of the public that are the exceptions are in Scotland, which evenly splits 41% in a favour of a monarchy and 43% in favour of an elected head of state, and 18-24 year olds, only a third of whom (35%) want to maintain a monarchy going forwards"

Pretty sure if it were the other way round, a certain PBer wouldn’t describe 41%-43% as ‘evenly split’, more like the future of the monarchy in Scotland is secure.

rottenborough · September 1

Kemi Badenoch
@KemiBadenoch
·
1h
Tomorrow, I launch my
@renewal2030
campaign to be the next leader of our great Conservative Party.

Join me at 11.00am, here on X!

https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1830296975079842209

Theuniondivvie · September 1

FF43 said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff

Historically Fascists have not being averse to co-opting monarchies into their new world orders. Eddy Windsor would have been well up for it.

Burgessian · September 1

Benpointer said:

kinabalu said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
It's the tv programme I remember most clearly and most fondly from that time when I was a teenager. I was SO into it. I actually wouldn't watch a repeat just in case it didn't hold up. That would be too sad.
We've watched it a couple of times in the past 20 years and it holds up pretty well overall. Of course the picture quality and production sets are fairly dire compared to today's shows but the plot, characterisation and acting are all very good.

It's probably due for a big money remake tbh.

Not a bad book, either.

Books actually (I, Claudius and Claudius the God). Graves tended to claim his fiction was what paid the bills while his real vocation was for poetry, but I think he probably cared more for it than he let on.

StillWaters · September 1

Theuniondivvie said:

FF43 said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff
Historically Fascists have not being averse to co-opting monarchies into their new world orders. Eddy Windsor would have been well up for it.

Which is why he was exited stage left when the opportunity arose

TimS · September 1

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.
I'm not really sure why the 'far right' is a threat to 'democracy'. Isn't at some level the rise of 'far right' parties a feature of democracy? ie they represent public opinion. Even though you hate it, they still represent popular opinion. It is not a solution to outlaw and imprison 20% of the voting public, even though some self defined 'centrist' politicians suggest this. In terms of 'western democracy', I would definitely see this authoritarian instinct as a greater threat, than that posed by the populist parties themselves.

What is quite unsettling/alarming from my point of view is that there are lots of people who, despite advanced education, and years of life experience, would still be quite happy to live in a authoritarian system which limits political expression; on the basis that they believe the government to hold similar views to their own.

It’s historical experience, both distant and more recent. Authoritarian and populist right wing leaders originally elected in free and fair elections have tended to want to “reform” democracy once they’ve been in for a while. Putting aside Hitler, we have Putin, Erdogan, Orban, Trump, Modi, Netanyahu. And they tend not to hide their views on this matter.

The far left is equally given to dispensing with democratic norms once they’ve served their purpose. See Venezuela. Or Hamas (though I’d describe them and Hezbollah as a mixture of far right and far left.)

Anyone who rails about elite conspiracies undermining the will of the people has what I’d describe as an existing comorbidity when it comes to antidemocratic instincts.

Benpointer · September 1

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.
I'm not really sure why the 'far right' is a threat to 'democracy'. Isn't at some level the rise of 'far right' parties a feature of democracy? ie they represent public opinion. Even though you hate it, they still represent popular opinion. It is not a solution to outlaw and imprison 20% of the voting public, even though some self defined 'centrist' politicians suggest this. In terms of 'western democracy', I would definitely see this authoritarian instinct as a greater threat, than that posed by the populist parties themselves.

What is quite unsettling/alarming from my point of view is that there are lots of people who, despite advanced education, and years of life experience, would still be quite happy to live in a authoritarian system which limits political expression; on the basis that they believe the government to hold similar views to their own.

One of the joys of PB is hearing the views of articulate people like yourself with markedly different views to my own. And I take your point, the far-right might not be a threat to democracy - but history suggests otherwise.

My concerns for democracy are wider than the potential resurgence of the far right though. The other warning signs include: polarisation of society; antipathy towards politics and politicians; the rapid promulgation of conspiracy theories and misinformation through social media; the rise of strong leaders (i.e. tyrants) around the world, many of whom love to undermine democracies through any means possible, the forced reversing of comment order on PB.com...

(Ok, maybe not that last point)

Big_G_NorthWales · September 1

SandyRentool said:
A baby born shortly before the death of the Queen is likely to have to endure five monarchs during their lifetime.

Unless we manage to embrace democracy at some point in the next 80 years.

I have 'endured' three so far

algarkirk · September 1

rottenborough said:

nico679 said:

Nunu5 said:

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.
True , Jenrick really is the worst choice .
Yep. But he will be a disaster with the public and they will throw him out within two or three years.

Whoever leads will be the tenth since the defenestration of MrsT in 1990. In that time Labour have appointed six, one of whom of course unexpectedly died in office.

Unless they can appoint a genuine long term statesman/woman with top political nous and outstanding leadership ability who can unite the centre right, set the direction, be popular but not populist they are in very grave difficulty at a moment where the loss of 25 more seats to the LDs would put then third.

Of the 6: I would give Tugendhat and Stride an outside chance of having the relevant qualities. The others, virtually zero. For those who enjoy the show, Badenoch would be interesting, but character would tell in the end. Patel and Jenrick: no hope disasters, just awful. Cleverly: not much better. From the betting point of view, ignore all the above and DYOR. I don't see any value at the moment.

state_go_away · September 1

algarkirk said:
Polls on the royals are only of local and passing interest. The important matter is that the current settlement (except in developmental detail) will continue to stand.

The reason is obvious. Which political party will do the following (100% of this has to be achieved, with no mistakes):

1) Decide that party policy is to end the crown as it now stands
2) Stick it in a manifesto at a GE
3) Win the election
4) Legislate for, hold and win a referendum on the matter
5) Pass the relevant legislation (a constitutional drafting and parliamentary nightmare), bring it into force on date X and implement it.

Every single stage of this is obvious and complete unalloyed suicide.

As yet no party has ever thought about this even WRT disestablishment of the Church of England. It is simply filed under 'Too Difficult'. Monarchy is 100 times harder.

why would you want to disestablish the C of E anyway? unless you are a communist

DavidL · September 1

Benpointer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:
OT Paralympics medal table

1. China 30 gold medals
2. Dear old Blighty 23
3. Brazil 8
4. USA, France, Australia, NL 6 each.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/paralympics-paris-2024/medals
We did invent disability sport after all.

The MCC? Not really, they just made some daft choices.

AbandonedHope · September 1

OnlyLivingBoy said:
I'm surprised Charles's ratings aren't higher, he's been doing a good job IMHO, especially considering his illness. I've always liked him, he seems to combine a sense of duty with a genuine interest in the country he governs.

Quite. He’s always had a greater awareness of the issues that face the country than many realise. His work through things such as the Prince’s Trust has been remarkable

algarkirk · September 1

state_go_away said:

algarkirk said:
Polls on the royals are only of local and passing interest. The important matter is that the current settlement (except in developmental detail) will continue to stand.

The reason is obvious. Which political party will do the following (100% of this has to be achieved, with no mistakes):

1) Decide that party policy is to end the crown as it now stands
2) Stick it in a manifesto at a GE
3) Win the election
4) Legislate for, hold and win a referendum on the matter
5) Pass the relevant legislation (a constitutional drafting and parliamentary nightmare), bring it into force on date X and implement it.

Every single stage of this is obvious and complete unalloyed suicide.

As yet no party has ever thought about this even WRT disestablishment of the Church of England. It is simply filed under 'Too Difficult'. Monarchy is 100 times harder.
why would you want to disestablish the C of E anyway? unless you are a communist

Personally I don't, I like it very much; but from time to time secular types point out that along with Iran we are one of the few countries to place clerics by right in the parliamentary process and have PMs appointing bishops (like China!). The Economist is fond of the point.

williamglenn · September 1

18-24 year old vote in Thuringia:

Driver · September 1

AbandonedHope said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:
I'm surprised Charles's ratings aren't higher, he's been doing a good job IMHO, especially considering his illness. I've always liked him, he seems to combine a sense of duty with a genuine interest in the country he governs.
Quite. He’s always had a greater awareness of the issues that face the country than many realise. His work through things such as the Prince’s Trust has been remarkable

There's a significant section of the public who still blame him for the way it turned out with Diana.

Malmesbury · September 1

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.
I'm not really sure why the 'far right' is a threat to 'democracy'. Isn't at some level the rise of 'far right' parties a feature of democracy? ie they represent public opinion. Even though you hate it, they still represent popular opinion. It is not a solution to outlaw and imprison 20% of the voting public, even though some self defined 'centrist' politicians suggest this. In terms of 'western democracy', I would definitely see this authoritarian instinct as a greater threat, than that posed by the populist parties themselves.

What is quite unsettling/alarming from my point of view is that there are lots of people who, despite advanced education, and years of life experience, would still be quite happy to live in a authoritarian system which limits political expression; on the basis that they believe the government to hold similar views to their own.

History tells us that the people with “ advanced education, and years of life experience” who are “quite happy to live in an authoritarian system which limits political expression…. similar views to their own.” often don’t ever work out the flaw in their Cunning Plan.

Even when the chap in charge of the firing squad says “take aim”.

algarkirk · September 1

LostPassword said:
Charles has been monarch for two years now. I would hazard a guess that those Republican who were daft enough to think that they only had to wait for him to become King for support for the monarchy to crater are slowly coming to realise that it's not going to be that easy.

In there were 65% support for Scottish independence the SNP would never tire of reminding us that this level of support is fantastic.

Burgessian · September 1

algarkirk said:

rottenborough said:

nico679 said:

Nunu5 said:

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.
True , Jenrick really is the worst choice .
Yep. But he will be a disaster with the public and they will throw him out within two or three years.

Whoever leads will be the tenth since the defenestration of MrsT in 1990. In that time Labour have appointed six, one of whom of course unexpectedly died in office.

Unless they can appoint a genuine long term statesman/woman with top political nous and outstanding leadership ability who can unite the centre right, set the direction, be popular but not populist they are in very grave difficulty at a moment where the loss of 25 more seats to the LDs would put then third.

Of the 6: I would give Tugendhat and Stride an outside chance of having the relevant qualities. The others, virtually zero. For those who enjoy the show, Badenoch would be interesting, but character would tell in the end. Patel and Jenrick: no hope disasters, just awful. Cleverly: not much better. From the betting point of view, ignore all the above and DYOR. I don't see any value at the moment.

I think that's a fair survey. Perhaps a bit hard on Cleverly. Tugendhat is really the best option. It's pretty obvious that Jenrick is a dud. But then it was blindingly obvious that Truss was, and she got elected.

The Scots Tories actually have a better choice in Russell Findlay and Murdo Fraser. Both are more credible than any of the Westminster candidates with the possible exception of Tugendhat.

Benpointer · September 1

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SandyRentool said:
A baby born shortly before the death of the Queen is likely to have to endure five monarchs during their lifetime.

Unless we manage to embrace democracy at some point in the next 80 years.
I have 'endured' three so far

Anyone born in 1900 and living to their mid-50s saw six monarchs.

Anyone born in 1470 and living to 90 experienced 10 monarchs (or nine if you don't count Lady Jane Grey).

HYUFD · September 1

So despite replacing his mother, one of the most popular monarchs in history and despite the unpopularity he and Camilla faced after the death of the late Princess of Wales, the King still has 65% of the voters wanting to keep him and a 63% favourable rating according to Yougov. A mere 25% want a republic, even fewer than voted for Corbyn in 2019.

A majority of voters in all the main UK parties, 55% of 2024 Labour voters, 60% of LDs, 81% of Reform and an overwhelming 94% of Tories want to keep the monarchy. The Prince of Wales is even more popular than his father, with a 75% favourable rating.

There is a big political divide on views of the Queen and the Sussexes however, 76% of Tories have a favourable view of Camilla but just 45% of Labour voters do. Just 14% of Tories and 12% of Reform voters have a positive view of Harry compared to 40% of Labour voters. Opinions of Meghan are even more polarised, a mere 7% of Tories and 7% of Reform voters have a positive view of the Duchess but 34% of Labour voters have a positive view of her
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50427-how-do-britons-feel-about-the-royals-after-two-years-of-king-charles

Monksfield · September 1

Seems like engineering the deselection of Sam Tarry hasn’t worked out so well for the Labour establishment.

Benpointer · September 1

DavidL said:

Benpointer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:
OT Paralympics medal table

1. China 30 gold medals
2. Dear old Blighty 23
3. Brazil 8
4. USA, France, Australia, NL 6 each.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/paralympics-paris-2024/medals
We did invent disability sport after all.
The MCC? Not really, they just made some daft choices.

That one's lost on me, I'm afraid David.

FF43 · September 1

.

rottenborough said:
Kemi Badenoch
@KemiBadenoch
·
1h
Tomorrow, I launch my
@renewal2030
campaign to be the next leader of our great Conservative Party.

Join me at 11.00am, here on X!

https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1830296975079842209

Interesting interview with Kemi Badenoch, making a couple of points I haven't heard from other candidates. Need a clearer narrative - don't talk right and act left. Government should do fewer things better. Make the case for capitalism. She's a technocrat at heart (not the word she uses). Claims a backstory of African poverty surmounted through entrepreneurship.

Not for me to pick holes in any of this - members will rightly choose their leader on partisan grounds. Interesting interview nevertheless.

https://conservativehome.com/2024/08/19/cchqs-in-conversation-with-kemi-badenoch/

No_Offence_Alan · September 1

An elected head of state? Yeah, an election where 52% vote for JK Rowling and 48% for Gary Lineker - yeah that would unite the nation.

Nigelb · September 1

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)

You way that only because you never watched Six Flying Dragons.

Burgessian · September 1

algarkirk said:
Polls on the royals are only of local and passing interest. The important matter is that the current settlement (except in developmental detail) will continue to stand.

The reason is obvious. Which political party will do the following (100% of this has to be achieved, with no mistakes):

1) Decide that party policy is to end the crown as it now stands
2) Stick it in a manifesto at a GE
3) Win the election
4) Legislate for, hold and win a referendum on the matter
5) Pass the relevant legislation (a constitutional drafting and parliamentary nightmare), bring it into force on date X and implement it.

Every single stage of this is obvious and complete unalloyed suicide.

As yet no party has ever thought about this even WRT disestablishment of the Church of England. It is simply filed under 'Too Difficult'. Monarchy is 100 times harder.

Worth remembering that a time-honoured British tradition is the very warm personal relations that invariably grows up between monarch and the Labour prime minister of the day. I've no doubt that Sir Keir and KCIII get on really quite well.

algarkirk · September 1

Benpointer said:

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.
I'm not really sure why the 'far right' is a threat to 'democracy'. Isn't at some level the rise of 'far right' parties a feature of democracy? ie they represent public opinion. Even though you hate it, they still represent popular opinion. It is not a solution to outlaw and imprison 20% of the voting public, even though some self defined 'centrist' politicians suggest this. In terms of 'western democracy', I would definitely see this authoritarian instinct as a greater threat, than that posed by the populist parties themselves.

What is quite unsettling/alarming from my point of view is that there are lots of people who, despite advanced education, and years of life experience, would still be quite happy to live in a authoritarian system which limits political expression; on the basis that they believe the government to hold similar views to their own.
One of the joys of PB is hearing the views of articulate people like yourself with markedly different views to my own. And I take your point, the far-right might not be a threat to democracy - but history suggests otherwise.

My concerns for democracy are wider than the potential resurgence of the far right though. The other warning signs include: polarisation of society; antipathy towards politics and politicians; the rapid promulgation of conspiracy theories and misinformation through social media; the rise of strong leaders (i.e. tyrants) around the world, many of whom love to undermine democracies through any means possible, the forced reversing of comment order on PB.com...

(Ok, maybe not that last point)

We have no recent evidence in this country as to how the puiblic would react to a real threat to the basics of democracy. By which I mean just the system where all can organise, all can stand and all can vote according to a system which is understood by all and in which there is a peaceful transfer of power and the losers accept government by the winners.

If I had to guess, I would suggest we wouldn't care for it and would say so. All the threats (as listed above) only affirm how necessary our boring and peaceful civil process is, so that the majority can constantly tell the lunatics to go away.

The price of liberty of course is constant vigilance, but that isn't new.

Theuniondivvie · September 1

StillWaters said:

Theuniondivvie said:

FF43 said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff
Historically Fascists have not being averse to co-opting monarchies into their new world orders. Eddy Windsor would have been well up for it.
Which is why he was exited stage left when the opportunity arose

Stage right.
I think his Hitler saluting days were mostly after his abdication weren’t they? I believe being in thrall to the Singapore Grip was the main reason for him being exited.

Anabobazina · September 1

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.

JENRICK

DougSeal · September 1

In a similar vein to this thread header I’d like to point out there were fewer murders and armed robberies during the Truss premiership than during the tenure of any other Prime Minister. She’s waiting for a grateful country to welcome her back.

HYUFD · September 1

Went to a reception this evening with Priti Patel. She was certainly punchy in attacking Starmer's new government and has 'oomph' which opposition leaders need. Though I suspect she would appeal more to Tory voters lost to Reform than Labour and the LDs

Stuartinromford · September 1

Burgessian said:

algarkirk said:

rottenborough said:

nico679 said:

Nunu5 said:

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

if he is elected leader tories will be out of power for ten years.....which is exactly why they will elect him.
True , Jenrick really is the worst choice .
Yep. But he will be a disaster with the public and they will throw him out within two or three years.

Whoever leads will be the tenth since the defenestration of MrsT in 1990. In that time Labour have appointed six, one of whom of course unexpectedly died in office.

Unless they can appoint a genuine long term statesman/woman with top political nous and outstanding leadership ability who can unite the centre right, set the direction, be popular but not populist they are in very grave difficulty at a moment where the loss of 25 more seats to the LDs would put then third.

Of the 6: I would give Tugendhat and Stride an outside chance of having the relevant qualities. The others, virtually zero. For those who enjoy the show, Badenoch would be interesting, but character would tell in the end. Patel and Jenrick: no hope disasters, just awful. Cleverly: not much better. From the betting point of view, ignore all the above and DYOR. I don't see any value at the moment.
I think that's a fair survey. Perhaps a bit hard on Cleverly. Tugendhat is really the best option. It's pretty obvious that Jenrick is a dud. But then it was blindingly obvious that Truss was, and she got elected.

The Scots Tories actually have a better choice in Russell Findlay and Murdo Fraser. Both are more credible than any of the Westminster candidates with the possible exception of Tugendhat.

Part of the question is what the job description actually is. If it's mainly to be "PM-elect for 2029" then that's rather different to "minding the shop whilst the next Conservative PM emerges from the new generation (but if the ball comes free from the scrum, never say never...)" In the first case, ideology matters. For the second, it's more about temperament and self-awareness.

The other issue is the likely response of the party if it loses in 2028. If that happens under a relative centrist, the pressure to go full-on Tory Id will be really hard to resist.

DougSeal · September 1

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SandyRentool said:
A baby born shortly before the death of the Queen is likely to have to endure five monarchs during their lifetime.

Unless we manage to embrace democracy at some point in the next 80 years.
I have 'endured' three so far
Anyone born in 1900 and living to their mid-50s saw six monarchs.

Anyone born in 1470 and living to 90 experienced 10 monarchs (or nine if you don't count Lady Jane Grey).

If you were born in 1470 and made it to 90 you were doing damn well.

algarkirk · September 1

FF43 said:
.
rottenborough said:
Kemi Badenoch
@KemiBadenoch
·
1h
Tomorrow, I launch my
@renewal2030
campaign to be the next leader of our great Conservative Party.

Join me at 11.00am, here on X!

https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1830296975079842209
Interesting interview with Kemi Badenoch, making a couple of points I haven't heard from other candidates. Need a clearer narrative - don't talk right and act left. Government should do fewer things better. Make the case for capitalism. She's a technocrat at heart (not the word she uses). Claims a backstory of African poverty surmounted through entrepreneurship.

Not for me to pick holes in any of this - members will rightly choose their leader on partisan grounds. Interesting interview nevertheless.

https://conservativehome.com/2024/08/19/cchqs-in-conversation-with-kemi-badenoch/

Life is short so I have not heard it. But WRT the above:

No doubt government should do fewer things. Which really big ones does she have in mind?
The case for capitalism does not need to be made in a country where all the main parties unequivocally support it.
Yes we need a clear narrative. Out of the confused mess of Tory policy, what is her narrative?

HYUFD · September 1

Carnyx said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Looking at the linky ...

"The only parts of the public that are the exceptions are in Scotland, which evenly splits 41% in a favour of a monarchy and 43% in favour of an elected head of state, and 18-24 year olds, only a third of whom (35%) want to maintain a monarchy going forwards"

The Prince of Wales though has a 64% positive rating in Scotland and 48% of 18-24s have a positive view of him too, just 28% negative
https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFavourability_240815.pdf

AbandonedHope · September 1

Catching up on things and I’m curious. Why are @rcs1000 and @TheScreamingEagles looking to replace Vanilla? What do they want the forum software to do?

Asking for a friend (so to speak).

Luckyguy1983 · September 1

...

nico679 said:
Does Jenrick get extra points amongst Tory members because he had the Disney mural painted over at the child refugee centre?

He makes my skin crawl and reminds me of that scene in Schindlers List where the commandment comes over all sweet and nice to the grannie before ........

Have you ever read or viewed an interview with Robert Jenrick where he explains why he ordered the murals painted over? I haven't - perhaps it might be interesting, rather than using it to fuel your outrage.

ohnotnow · September 1

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)

Give 'The Cleopatras' a go. It's not nearly as good - but way, way under-rated in comparison.

(Also, quite a lot of nekkid - so nsfw)

bondegezou · September 1

FF43 said:
.
rottenborough said:
Kemi Badenoch
@KemiBadenoch
·
1h
Tomorrow, I launch my
@renewal2030
campaign to be the next leader of our great Conservative Party.

Join me at 11.00am, here on X!

https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1830296975079842209
Interesting interview with Kemi Badenoch, making a couple of points I haven't heard from other candidates. Need a clearer narrative - don't talk right and act left. Government should do fewer things better. Make the case for capitalism. She's a technocrat at heart (not the word she uses). Claims a backstory of African poverty surmounted through entrepreneurship.

Not for me to pick holes in any of this - members will rightly choose their leader on partisan grounds. Interesting interview nevertheless.

https://conservativehome.com/2024/08/19/cchqs-in-conversation-with-kemi-badenoch/

Her dad was a GP and her mum, a professor. She was born in Wimbledon, although spent a chunk of childhood in Lagos (and other time in the US). Not exactly poverty.

And she worked in big companies (Logica, RBS, Coutts), so not exactly being an entrepreneur.

williamglenn · September 1

Anabobazina said:

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.
JENRICK

Jenrick passes the two-second test. If you catch a two-second clip of him on the news without any context, he looks the part. Labour should be worried.

HYUFD · September 1

Looks like a clear win for the AfD in Thurungia state elections and the CDU narrowly winning in Saxony. The governing SPD, Green and FDP parties look to have been trounced, not only behind the AfD and CDU but leftwing populist BSW and Linke
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn02w01xr2jo

DougSeal · September 1

Theuniondivvie said:

FF43 said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff
Historically Fascists have not being averse to co-opting monarchies into their new world orders. Eddy Windsor would have been well up for it.

Mixed bag. Hitler despised the Hohenzollerns and the Hapsburgs, and Franco waited until his death until letting the Bourbons back, but admittedly Mussolini was indeed pretty chummy with the House of Savoy until matters became a little out of his control.

Edward Windsor would have done a deal with anyone.

Anabobazina · September 1

I suspect I’m like millions of others, I think the monarchy - the world’s most generous welfare state - is silly and completely at odds with the values of meritocracy. It is also a cruel life sentence for those born into it. But Chas is a decent bloke, and I struggle really to give much of a shit. Seems to make some people happy, for reasons known only to themselves.

darkage · September 1

TimS said:

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

hamiltonace said:
It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.
I do sometimes fear we're seeing the beginning of the end of Western democracy.

Maybe we have just been lucky enough to live in a brief window of freedom between the norm of government by tyranny.
I'm not really sure why the 'far right' is a threat to 'democracy'. Isn't at some level the rise of 'far right' parties a feature of democracy? ie they represent public opinion. Even though you hate it, they still represent popular opinion. It is not a solution to outlaw and imprison 20% of the voting public, even though some self defined 'centrist' politicians suggest this. In terms of 'western democracy', I would definitely see this authoritarian instinct as a greater threat, than that posed by the populist parties themselves.

What is quite unsettling/alarming from my point of view is that there are lots of people who, despite advanced education, and years of life experience, would still be quite happy to live in a authoritarian system which limits political expression; on the basis that they believe the government to hold similar views to their own.
It’s historical experience, both distant and more recent. Authoritarian and populist right wing leaders originally elected in free and fair elections have tended to want to “reform” democracy once they’ve been in for a while. Putting aside Hitler, we have Putin, Erdogan, Orban, Trump, Modi, Netanyahu. And they tend not to hide their views on this matter.

The far left is equally given to dispensing with democratic norms once they’ve served their purpose. See Venezuela. Or Hamas (though I’d describe them and Hezbollah as a mixture of far right and far left.)

Anyone who rails about elite conspiracies undermining the will of the people has what I’d describe as an existing comorbidity when it comes to antidemocratic instincts.

The danger of authoritarianism exists. but there is an inherent bias towards always seeing it on the right and not on the left, largely because of historical myths. The reality is probably more that it is a likely consequence of power and the instinct to control.

Ultimately the threat of authoritarianism is best countered by building a system that takes in to account all views/opinions. It just goes down to an issue of free speech. Aside from incitement to violence, attempting to outlaw speech/views because it is offensive is an assault on the basic principles of liberal democracy. The 'far right' is a highly predictable, almost inevitable reaction to this - they won't play ball with the system, and so become a threat to the system itself. This is why Nigel Farage is a largely unrecognised asset to British democracy, even though he is hated, he channels these views in to the democratic system.

I have been very influenced by the Finnish system, great efforts were made to bring the 'populist/far right' in to the political system over the last 20 years, they are part of the government now. It is not without its problems but Finland has been spared many of the problems other similar countries are currently going through.

Big_G_NorthWales · September 1

Anabobazina said:

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.
JENRICK

I read this and thought of you

BBC News - Post Office handles record amount of cash
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36nrw02yy5o

Anabobazina · September 1

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Looking at the linky ...

"The only parts of the public that are the exceptions are in Scotland, which evenly splits 41% in a favour of a monarchy and 43% in favour of an elected head of state, and 18-24 year olds, only a third of whom (35%) want to maintain a monarchy going forwards"
The Prince of Wales though has a 64% positive rating in Scotland and 48% of 18-24s have a positive view of him too, just 28% negative
https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFavourability_240815.pdf

The C-Dogg seems like a good fella, but it’s a genetic lottery. He could just as easily been an arch wanker in the Boris mould and we’d be lumbered with him as king nevertheless.

Anabobazina · September 1

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Anabobazina said:

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.
JENRICK
I read this and thought of you

BBC News - Post Office handles record amount of cash
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36nrw02yy5o

JENRICK

ohnotnow · September 1

Benpointer said:

kinabalu said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
It's the tv programme I remember most clearly and most fondly from that time when I was a teenager. I was SO into it. I actually wouldn't watch a repeat just in case it didn't hold up. That would be too sad.
We've watched it a couple of times in the past 20 years and it holds up pretty well overall. Of course the picture quality and production sets are fairly dire compared to today's shows but the plot, characterisation and acting are all very good.

It's probably due for a big money remake tbh.

BBC R4 did a version back in the early 2010s afair. As far away from 'big money' as you can get, but if you're an audio person it's worth a go.

DougSeal · September 1

Imagine how different the history of Europe would have been had CB Fry accepted the throne of Albania. We’d be playing test matches in Tirana for a start.

squareroot2 · September 1

It's a poll. Rule 1 never trust polls. 25 pc is small.minority. ignore.

HYUFD · September 1

algarkirk said:

state_go_away said:

algarkirk said:
Polls on the royals are only of local and passing interest. The important matter is that the current settlement (except in developmental detail) will continue to stand.

The reason is obvious. Which political party will do the following (100% of this has to be achieved, with no mistakes):

1) Decide that party policy is to end the crown as it now stands
2) Stick it in a manifesto at a GE
3) Win the election
4) Legislate for, hold and win a referendum on the matter
5) Pass the relevant legislation (a constitutional drafting and parliamentary nightmare), bring it into force on date X and implement it.

Every single stage of this is obvious and complete unalloyed suicide.

As yet no party has ever thought about this even WRT disestablishment of the Church of England. It is simply filed under 'Too Difficult'. Monarchy is 100 times harder.
why would you want to disestablish the C of E anyway? unless you are a communist
Personally I don't, I like it very much; but from time to time secular types point out that along with Iran we are one of the few countries to place clerics by right in the parliamentary process and have PMs appointing bishops (like China!). The Economist is fond of the point.

The Lords is a fully unelected revising chamber anyway, just add a few Imams, Rabbis and Baptist and Presbyterian and Pentecostal ministers too (the Vatican doesn't allow Cardinals and Bishops to be in the Lords as it challenges Papal and Vatican authority in their view).

Establishment also allows any resident of a C of E Parish to be baptised, married, blessed and have a funeral in their Parish church even if they never go to church normally

Anabobazina · September 1

williamglenn said:

Anabobazina said:

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.
JENRICK
Jenrick passes the two-second test. If you catch a two-second clip of him on the news without any context, he looks the part. Labour should be worried.

JENRICK

ohnotnow · September 1

algarkirk said:

FF43 said:
.
rottenborough said:
Kemi Badenoch
@KemiBadenoch
·
1h
Tomorrow, I launch my
@renewal2030
campaign to be the next leader of our great Conservative Party.

Join me at 11.00am, here on X!

https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1830296975079842209
Interesting interview with Kemi Badenoch, making a couple of points I haven't heard from other candidates. Need a clearer narrative - don't talk right and act left. Government should do fewer things better. Make the case for capitalism. She's a technocrat at heart (not the word she uses). Claims a backstory of African poverty surmounted through entrepreneurship.

Not for me to pick holes in any of this - members will rightly choose their leader on partisan grounds. Interesting interview nevertheless.

https://conservativehome.com/2024/08/19/cchqs-in-conversation-with-kemi-badenoch/
Life is short so I have not heard it. But WRT the above:

No doubt government should do fewer things. Which really big ones does she have in mind?
The case for capitalism does not need to be made in a country where all the main parties unequivocally support it.
Yes we need a clear narrative. Out of the confused mess of Tory policy, what is her narrative?

People weeing in the incorrectly labelled toilets?

It's like the new Thatcher is upon us.

Sunil_Prasannan · September 1

Anabobazina said:

williamglenn said:

Anabobazina said:

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.
JENRICK
Jenrick passes the two-second test. If you catch a two-second clip of him on the news without any context, he looks the part. Labour should be worried.
JENRICK

R
O
B
E
R
T

kjh · September 1

@hyufd I was in your part of the world on Friday. On my trip to our Southwold house I popped into a place near Epping that sells replica Cobras and GT40s. Thought I had been to Epping in the dim and distant past, but I had no recollection.

@Dura_Ace will be lived I am looking at them. He has filled a quarry with Panthers to ensure I don't buy one of them. He now has to move onto Cobras. I would love a GT40 but realistically you can't take it to the pub.

Taz · September 1

kinabalu said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

I think I’d prefer a female jack russell called Molly.
I want Brian Blessed as Head of State.
Not a good idea - look what he did in I Claudius.

(Still the best ever TV historical drama series)
It's the tv programme I remember most clearly and most fondly from that time when I was a teenager. I was SO into it. I actually wouldn't watch a repeat just in case it didn't hold up. That would be too sad.

It’s very good and it does hold up and as the drama and the acting is so good you forget the scenery and the production values. It is very similar to stuff like The Cleopatras, Elizabeth R and the Six Wives of Henry VII for production. But all carry you away with the drama.

Taz · September 1

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Anabobazina said:

Casino_Royale said:
Just saw that Jenrick video.

Comes across like a 6th form Tory Boy doing a turn at the debating union, with a slightly stilted and overrehearsed, and not particularly coherent, history listen.

Gone back a step now, in my eyes.
JENRICK
I read this and thought of you

BBC News - Post Office handles record amount of cash
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36nrw02yy5o

A good news story.

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