It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
Not just old people, children are too. Its one of the leading killers of young children.
So if you want to make that argument, again, it should be universal and not just giving it to those who vote.
If its not to be universal, target it on those who need it not wealthy voters.
I agree. Children in poverty should also get WFA if a way can be formatted to deliver it.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
"Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire."
Granny the millionaire doesn't.
But my original point and the newspaper headline was about the OAPs who do need it who may be v cold this winter.
The PR and optics and politics of this are utterly shit. Train drivers given 1000s while granny freezes. For what purpose? She wanted to look tough and wanted to do what the treasury said to 'fit in' imho.
It is a disaster politically and will play out very very badly if we have a cold winter.
This one will run and run.
Again - why?
It is shows a real lack of political skills and a tin ear.
And we know how that ends.
Appalling start for Reeves and frankly I think the autumn budget will be another fuck up based on what has happened so far.
How long before she is replaced?
It's very hard for a PM to replace a CofE without severe political damage so my guess is you're stuck with her for the duration but Rachel's a complete dud as you've correctly identified.
Watch out for a very entertaining Rachel/Angela feud in the next year or two as well...
I am absolutely stunned how tone deaf she is politically. Just incredible.
I guess she will be utterly taken aback wit the shitstorm coming if we have a cold winter.
It doesn't even need a cold winter. A lot of old people are susceptible to cold/hypothermia on what we could consider relatively mild winter day, especially if they are living in houses without much insulation.
A cold winter would just be the cherry on the cake.
You keep repeating that old people are subject to cold/hypothermia while ignoring the fact that not only old people are.
Pneumonia was identified in the death of 75% of children with special needs in the UK.
Children under 1 year old are more vulnerable than any other age group, including pensioners.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the state pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
They aren't huge inflation busting pay awards. They are about the same as the private sector, and considerably less than the inflation busting percentage that pensioners got.
If we want to progress as a country we need to move away from screwing the young to featherbed pensioners, and I write that as someone nearly of pension age.
Anyone know how much the quirky operation of the triple lock has benefited those on the state pension in recent years?
(To be clear, I'm fine with the TL operating for a good while yet. But the specific fuel bung might now have been overtaken by events.)
Then we're left with two things. One is shroud waving by the Express, which is what they do and always to be tutted about.
The other is that it's not popular, which is fair enough. But if a government with a big majority can't do unpopular but right things in its early months, when can it?
Answering my own question, since it's always simpler that way.
Basic State Pension:
£7376 in 2022/3 £8814 in 2024/5
So near as dammit 20 percent up in two years. Pretty much the same as junior doctors, and I'm pretty sure ahead of inflation. (Which makes sense given how the TL works. Pensions get the inflation uplift when it happens, then a double dib when pays rises follow a year later.)
Which is fine... The 1980s squeeze on the basic pension needs unwinding, but puts the removal of the fuel payment into perspective.
Unless I've got the numbers wrong somehow, whic is definitely possible.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
Not just old people, children are too. Its one of the leading killers of young children.
So if you want to make that argument, again, it should be universal and not just giving it to those who vote.
If its not to be universal, target it on those who need it not wealthy voters.
I agree. Children in poverty should also get WFA if a way can be formatted to deliver it.
Considering pensioners are less vulnerable than young children, and considering you added the "in poverty" caveat to giving it to children, presumably you agree only pensioners "in poverty" should get it too?
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
I don’t believe in the universality of the winter fuel payment but I do think there was a much smarter way of withdrawing it. She should have increased pension credit or linked it to those only paying basic rate tax or something along those lines. At least then she’d have had more political cover. £11k is nothing, and yes the optics are bad. I agree Reeves has had a bad start.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
"Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire."
Granny the millionaire doesn't.
But my original point and the newspaper headline was about the OAPs who do need it who may be v cold this winter.
The PR and optics and politics of this are utterly shit. Train drivers given 1000s while granny freezes. For what purpose? She wanted to look tough and wanted to do what the treasury said to 'fit in' imho.
It is a disaster politically and will play out very very badly if we have a cold winter.
This one will run and run.
Again - why?
It is shows a real lack of political skills and a tin ear.
And we know how that ends.
Appalling start for Reeves and frankly I think the autumn budget will be another fuck up based on what has happened so far.
How long before she is replaced?
Why? How about because it was the right thing to do?
Is that not a good enough reason?
The right thing to do is tax richer pensioners the equivalent of the £300 or whatever a year benefit and leave it as universal.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
She better get on triple dose of that baking soda, because that was set by a woman with more testosterone pumping through their veins than Ben Johnson....the scales doesn't go that high on modern testing machines.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
But the early years of a government are exactly when it should be repulsive-but-right. If we are moving away from government by opinion poll and newspaper headline, good.
Remember how The Lady viewed mid-term popularity. It was the sign of a sinful government, wasting the opportunity to sow the seeds for success when it counted.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
But the early years of a government are exactly when it should be repulsive-but-right. If we are moving away from government by opinion poll and newspaper headline, good.
Remember how The Lady viewed mid-term popularity. It was the sign of a sinful government, wasting the opportunity to sow the seeds for success when it counted.
You are completely correct.
One thing I'll note though is I believe you (sorry if I'm wrong) and others have said repeatedly that there's nothing left for the government to cut as the prior government had cut spending to the bone, whenever people like myself said the government should cut expenditure.
Here the government has done the right thing and cut expenditure, expenditure it did not need to spend.
Hopefully the new government can find more cuts like this to make. Cutting wasteful expenditure is never a bad thing and it bemuses me the centre-right posters on this site up in arms because wasteful expenditure has been cut.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
That's their choice.
Many young people do not have good incomes and will not put it on either.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
if they don't have the income they'll still be eligible for the benefit. it's almost as if you are just repeating labour bad labour bad.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
Not just old people, children are too. Its one of the leading killers of young children.
So if you want to make that argument, again, it should be universal and not just giving it to those who vote.
If its not to be universal, target it on those who need it not wealthy voters.
I agree. Children in poverty should also get WFA if a way can be formatted to deliver it.
Considering pensioners are less vulnerable than young children, and considering you added the "in poverty" caveat to giving it to children, presumably you agree only pensioners "in poverty" should get it too?
Well lets say children belonging to low income households (rather than in "poverty") - So make WFA payable all pensioners (but include @rottenborough rather neat idea of claiming the £300 back by taxing richer pensioners) and also give it all all households with children (especially younger children) claiming Universal Credit.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
if they don't have the income they'll still be eligible for the benefit. it's almost as if you are just repeating labour bad labour bad.
That is the point - many are not eligible for the benefit by even just a few pounds
Anyway let us see how this evolves into winter but I doubt it will be to Reeves benefit (if you excuse the pun)
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
Not just old people, children are too. Its one of the leading killers of young children.
So if you want to make that argument, again, it should be universal and not just giving it to those who vote.
If its not to be universal, target it on those who need it not wealthy voters.
I agree. Children in poverty should also get WFA if a way can be formatted to deliver it.
Considering pensioners are less vulnerable than young children, and considering you added the "in poverty" caveat to giving it to children, presumably you agree only pensioners "in poverty" should get it too?
Well lets say children belonging to low income households (rather than in "poverty") - So make WFA payable all pensioners (but include @rottenborough rather neat idea of claiming the £300 back by taxing richer pensioners) and also give it all all households with children (especially younger children) claiming Universal Credit.
OK?
If its going to be families with children on UC then the equivalent for pensioners is pensioners on pension credit.
I would say UC and pension credit - or universal to everyone by which I mean everyone. No reason to say all of one group, even those who don't need it, but screw everyone else even those who do.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
if they don't have the income they'll still be eligible for the benefit. it's almost as if you are just repeating labour bad labour bad.
That is the point - many are not eligible for the benefit by even just a few pounds
Anyway let us see how this evolves into winter but I doubt it will be to Reeves benefit (if you excuse the pun)
If they're not eligible for the benefit then they don't need it, what's the problem?
Working families on a comparable income with children to provide for don't get it either.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
That's their choice.
Many young people do not have good incomes and will not put it on either.
What's the difference?
Are you comparing the resilience of a young person with an old age pensioner
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Indeed. In fact lots of grandparents look after the grandchildren while mum and dad go out to work...
At the end of the day we're all in it together. Grandparents generally want the best for their grandchildren and grandchildren generally want the best for the grandparents.
Most people/generations aren't at loggerheads (other than over Brexit which really did divide the generations)
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
What a silly comment
Its not at all silly.
Should a parent of a new born baby be in your words "frightened" to put the heating on this winter?
This benefit should either be universal, going to absolutely everyone, or targeted on those who need it. Spaffing it on a group of voters who don't need it while denying it to people who do but aren't eligible is absurd and the worst thing to be doing.
Pneumonia is one of the biggest killers of young children. So should all parents get the WFA too if that's the reason why? Or is it just wealthy pensioners and not poor children that matter?
You can make your argument and few would disagree that there are pensioners who do not need it, (we are in that category) but equally there is a large number of pensioners in the middle who will suffer from this policy and the politics of it this winter will be terrible as demonstrated by how worried mps from all parties are about it
The guardian article I posted makes the arguments very well with public approval at 49/29 against the policy
They won't "suffer" they'll just have to pay their own fuel bills, just as just about managing families up and down the country do.
The politics seem terrible to you because politicians for too long have pandered to pensioners because they vote. That doesn't make ending the pandering wrong.
When you say the politics look terrible to me it is not me talking but a wide spectrum of the public and politicians
Yes, a wide spectrum of the public and politicians who have been pandering to high turnout voters for far too long.
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Why make this personal
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
That's their choice.
Many young people do not have good incomes and will not put it on either.
What's the difference?
Are you comparing the resilience of a young person with an old age pensioner
Yes.
The most vulnerable people are the youngest. The highest risk age group is 0-1 years old.
A 16-year-old boy, who cannot be named due to his age, has been remanded in custody charged with stabbing an army chaplain in Co Galway.
Police told the court the attack was “frenzied” and believe the accused holds a “radical Islamist mindset.”
Not a good time for this to have happened, either here or in Ireland with recent tensions as they are
Not good but I suspect we haven't got anywhere near the end of these problems, everything that happens will lead to another explosion of public anger, probably most obviously manifesting itself in polling increases for Reform and other populist parties, now people know that protesting/rioting is not the way to go.
I was walking around my town and there is a mural on a public building essentially welcoming people on small boats. This was either funded or, at the minimum, allowed by the local Council. Nearly 40% of the local population voted for either reform or the Conservative party. Why assume that the other 60% support unlimited illegal immigration on small boats? They probably don't.
I feel like the 'liberal elite' has a kind of death wish. In their obsession with welcoming in refugees, and their insistence that any view to the contrary is 'racist' and 'hatred' and their associated desire to remove it from acceptable discourse, they seem to be hastening on the death of liberal democracy, in favour of Trump style nationalism.
Even Trump style nationalism is part of democracy, just not a liberal part of it
I am not sure Trump is a democrat. There are a lot of warning signs about this.
The problem that is troubling me is how you can build a system that allows the populist/far right to exist within it on the one side, and the 'refugees welcome' people on the other. They are both fundamentally opposed to each other, both see each other as existential threats, they can't/won't talk to each other. But somehow there has to be a way, or else it feels like we are heading in to a tyranny of one sort or the other.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
Not just old people, children are too. Its one of the leading killers of young children.
So if you want to make that argument, again, it should be universal and not just giving it to those who vote.
If its not to be universal, target it on those who need it not wealthy voters.
I agree. Children in poverty should also get WFA if a way can be formatted to deliver it.
Considering pensioners are less vulnerable than young children, and considering you added the "in poverty" caveat to giving it to children, presumably you agree only pensioners "in poverty" should get it too?
Well lets say children belonging to low income households (rather than in "poverty") - So make WFA payable all pensioners (but include @rottenborough rather neat idea of claiming the £300 back by taxing richer pensioners) and also give it all all households with children (especially younger children) claiming Universal Credit.
OK?
If its going to be families with children on UC then the equivalent for pensioners is pensioners on pension credit.
I would say UC and pension credit - or universal to everyone by which I mean everyone. No reason to say all of one group, even those who don't need it, but screw everyone else even those who do.
That could work, but again you need to factor in the large number of old people that don't claim PC they're entitled to (850,000) viz and viz the number of families not claiming UC they're entitled to.
I think generally younger people will claim while older people, for a variety of reasons, won't. Could be generalizing there, though.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
Not just old people, children are too. Its one of the leading killers of young children.
So if you want to make that argument, again, it should be universal and not just giving it to those who vote.
If its not to be universal, target it on those who need it not wealthy voters.
I agree. Children in poverty should also get WFA if a way can be formatted to deliver it.
Considering pensioners are less vulnerable than young children, and considering you added the "in poverty" caveat to giving it to children, presumably you agree only pensioners "in poverty" should get it too?
Well lets say children belonging to low income households (rather than in "poverty") - So make WFA payable all pensioners (but include @rottenborough rather neat idea of claiming the £300 back by taxing richer pensioners) and also give it all all households with children (especially younger children) claiming Universal Credit.
OK?
If its going to be families with children on UC then the equivalent for pensioners is pensioners on pension credit.
I would say UC and pension credit - or universal to everyone by which I mean everyone. No reason to say all of one group, even those who don't need it, but screw everyone else even those who do.
That could work, but again you need to factor in the large number of old people that don't claim PC they're entitled to (850,000) viz and viz the number of families not claiming UC they're entitled to.
I think generally younger people will claim while older people, for a variety of reasons, won't. Could be generalizing there, though.
That's their choice.
I think there's plenty of young people who could and don't too.
If people can make do without claiming, good for them. I see no evidence for your generalisation.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Indeed. In fact lots of grandparents look after the grandchildren while mum and dad go out to work...
At the end of the day we're all in it together. Grandparents generally want the best for their grandchildren and grandchildren generally want the best for the grandparents.
Most people/generations aren't at loggerheads (other than over Brexit which really did divide the generations)
I do worry about the bitterness to the elderly, but you have made the excellent point that it is rare for generations to be at loggerheads and in our case we have done our fair share of looking after the grandchildren including ferrying them back and forth to school over the years
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
What's so special about old people that doesn't apply to young people too?
The most vulnerable age group is the youngest, not the oldest, so if you wanted to make it universal then why not make it universal to young and old?
But making it universal to old people but shafting young people - how can you justify that?
I am saying no more no less than treat people the same. Universal for everyone, or based on need for everyone. That you find that so alien a concept says more about the broken state of politics in this country than it does about me.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
Welcome to the benefits system the under 60s have to endure.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
What's so special about old people that doesn't apply to young people too?
The most vulnerable age group is the youngest, not the oldest, so if you wanted to make it universal then why not make it universal to young and old?
But making it universal to old people but shafting young people - how can you justify that?
I am saying no more no less than treat people the same. Universal for everyone, or based on need for everyone. That you find that so alien a concept says more about the broken state of politics in this country than it does about me.
Pensioners are more likely to spend more money on heating because they are a) old b) at home most of the time as they do not go to a warm office c) possibly with ill health d) generally suffer from the cold more than the young.
But be that as it may - my original point was on the optics and the political fall out and on that I think Reeves is in the shitter come this winter.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Indeed. In fact lots of grandparents look after the grandchildren while mum and dad go out to work...
At the end of the day we're all in it together. Grandparents generally want the best for their grandchildren and grandchildren generally want the best for the grandparents.
Most people/generations aren't at loggerheads (other than over Brexit which really did divide the generations)
I do worry about the bitterness to the elderly, but you have made the excellent point that it is rare for generations to be at loggerheads and in our case we have done our fair share of looking after the grandchildren including ferrying them back and forth to school over the years
I'm sure you and Mrs G are awesome grandparents. ❤
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
Welcome to the benefits system the under 60s have to endure.
Yes but someday you will be over 60, 70 and 80 even 90 hopefully
Is there anybody rich or famous who wasn't a somehow closely connected to Epstein.....there used to be the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game, due to how many tv shows and movies he had been in, I think you could do an updated version of the game, the 3 degrees of Jeffrey Epstein.
Yes. He was well known to be dodgy as f*ck. those who needed his money (politicians and wealth managers) hung about him as did those who liked his other offerings. Those who were better advised or savvy steered well clear
Cutting unearned benefits from those who don't need them is absolutely a good start.
Why should millionaire OAPs get a winter fuel allowance paid for by the taxes of those working for a living?
In principle you are probably right but they haven't thought through the thresholds very well. The policy hasn't been well finessed or presented.
I am generally nervous about means testing, particularly when it creates poverty traps. However as a nation we are out of cash, and even if this policy only brings in ten bob, every little helps.
I suppose the PB faithful's criticism of Labour's first, almost 50, days in Government is based on their memory not recalling what came before.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
What's so special about old people that doesn't apply to young people too?
The most vulnerable age group is the youngest, not the oldest, so if you wanted to make it universal then why not make it universal to young and old?
But making it universal to old people but shafting young people - how can you justify that?
I am saying no more no less than treat people the same. Universal for everyone, or based on need for everyone. That you find that so alien a concept says more about the broken state of politics in this country than it does about me.
Pensioners are more likely to spend more money on heating because they are a) old b) at home most of the time as they do not go to a warm office c) possibly with ill health d) generally suffer from the cold more than the young.
But be that as i may - my original point was on the optics and the political fall out and on that I think Reeves is in the shitter come this winter.
Interesting thought process.
How many babies go to the office? And how many babies stay at home?
If you want to talk about "generally suffer" then the most vulnerable age group is the youngest in this country. Children under 1 year of age are more likely to die from infections than any other age, pensioners come next.
So your logic fails completely. The most vulnerable people in this country to the cold are the youngest, who aren't in offices and aren't getting this "universal" payment.
Either make it universal to everyone, or target it to the poorest who need it based on need - but spaffing money on people who don't need it while denying support to more vulnerable people who do isn't appropriate.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Indeed. In fact lots of grandparents look after the grandchildren while mum and dad go out to work...
At the end of the day we're all in it together. Grandparents generally want the best for their grandchildren and grandchildren generally want the best for the grandparents.
Most people/generations aren't at loggerheads (other than over Brexit which really did divide the generations)
I do worry about the bitterness to the elderly, but you have made the excellent point that it is rare for generations to be at loggerheads and in our case we have done our fair share of looking after the grandchildren including ferrying them back and forth to school over the years
I'm sure you and Mrs G are awesome grandparents. ❤
Have a good night my friend.
And you
It is well past my bedtime, and I think everything has been said on the subject of the winter fuel allowance and it remains to be seen how this plays out into the winter
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
What's so special about old people that doesn't apply to young people too?
The most vulnerable age group is the youngest, not the oldest, so if you wanted to make it universal then why not make it universal to young and old?
But making it universal to old people but shafting young people - how can you justify that?
I am saying no more no less than treat people the same. Universal for everyone, or based on need for everyone. That you find that so alien a concept says more about the broken state of politics in this country than it does about me.
Pensioners are more likely to spend more money on heating because they are a) old b) at home most of the time as they do not go to a warm office c) possibly with ill health d) generally suffer from the cold more than the young.
But be that as i may - my original point was on the optics and the political fall out and on that I think Reeves is in the shitter come this winter.
Interesting thought process.
How many babies go to the office? And how many babies stay at home?
If you want to talk about "generally suffer" then the most vulnerable age group is the youngest in this country. Children under 1 year of age are more likely to die from infections than any other age, pensioners come next.
So your logic fails completely. The most vulnerable people in this country to the cold are the youngest, who aren't in offices and aren't getting this "universal" payment.
Either make it universal to everyone, or target it to the poorest who need it based on need - but spaffing money on people who don't need it while denying support to more vulnerable people who do isn't appropriate.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
Welcome to the benefits system the under 60s have to endure.
Yes but someday you will be over 60, 70 and 80 even 90 hopefully
sure but i won't have been showered with universal benefits so won't know any different
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
Welcome to the benefits system the under 60s have to endure.
Yes but someday you will be over 60, 70 and 80 even 90 hopefully
sure but i won't have been showered with universal benefits so won't know any different
Pensioners have paid NI throughout their lifetimes to qualify for what is a very basic pension.
The winter fuel allowance was introduced by Gordon Brown in 1997 to help older people with their fuel costs
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
Welcome to the benefits system the under 60s have to endure.
Yes but someday you will be over 60, 70 and 80 even 90 hopefully
sure but i won't have been showered with universal benefits so won't know any different
Pensioners have paid NI throughout their lifetimes to qualify for what is a very basic pension.
The winter fuel allowance was introduced by Gordon Brown in 1997 to help older people with their fuel costs
It was a splurge of taxpayers money by Brown on people who have a tendency to vote.
Oh and what was the logic used about removing free university education? It was when fewer people were claiming and it can't be afforded anymore - I believe those were the words right? Well that applies to this too.
As you've admitted, you don't need it. Others need it more and don't get it.
Good for the Government for fixing that.
Nobody should be worried about putting on the heating, whether that be an old person or a young family with a newborn baby. The solution is not though Brown's mess.
Is there anybody rich or famous who wasn't a somehow closely connected to Epstein.....there used to be the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game, due to how many tv shows and movies he had been in, I think you could do an updated version of the game, the 3 degrees of Jeffrey Epstein.
Yes. He was well known to be dodgy as f*ck. those who needed his money (politicians and wealth managers) hung about him as did those who liked his other offerings. Those who were better advised or savvy steered well clear
Its extremely fortunate for a lot of people that Jeff decided to take his own life rather than plea deal down his sentence with promises to expose lots of wrongdoings by others.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be a few pounds or a small annuity but are most certainly not middle income pensioners
Welcome to the benefits system the under 60s have to endure.
Yes but someday you will be over 60, 70 and 80 even 90 hopefully
There won't be a state pension left by the time I retire
I always presumed in order to stay in the race the only permissible answer with Mrs T, a bit like the only permissible answer to remain active on PB to the question who is the greatest live performance at Glastonbury is of course Radiohead.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Not only pensioners worry about paying the bills.
Why do only pensioners matter in your world?
They don't, but we know old people are especially susceptible to the cold and hypothermia, which is why WFA was brought in in the first place?
It was brought in because it was the kind of cutesy political gimmick that Brown loved.
It must surely go down as one of the most insane decisions by any chancellor . It raises very little and although the next election is a long way into the distance it’s a disastrous move .
Reeves I agree has had a terrible start and needs to u-turn on this before the papers are full of gran freezes to death stories over the winter .
There are going to be numerous examples of barely managing pensioners frightened to heat their homes this winter while Labour roll over and hand train drivers everything they demand
I notice that it is reported that the conservatives, reform, lib dems, and plaid have all condemned the confiscation of winter fuel payments to barely managing pensioners and demanding the policy is reversed
I see it ending in a situation where the eligibility criteria is expanded, but then it becomes more complicated to mean test and before you know with all the extra admin it would have been cheaper just to keep giving it to everybody.
It probably would have been much better just to increase taxes on wealthier pensioners.
There is little doubt it is a PR disaster for Reeves especially with all the awards to the public sector, doctors and train drivers whilst many greatly loved grannies shiver in their homes
I should add it is all over social media, facebook, and what's app groups and now the SNP have said it is to be withdrawn in Scotland the same anger is on display there
Oh give over!
Why can't granny pay for her own heating from her own income or savings? Why does she need a benefit to pay for it? Especially if granny is a millionaire.
And why shouldn't those who are working for a living get a pay rise - they're going to work, should they not be paid to go to work in your eyes?
You have no idea of how many pensioners are in fuel poverty with the stare pension and even a small annuity and have no means of earning
You seen to live in a world where you think pensioners are millionaires
And of course workers should receive pay rises but we know what happens to inflation and interest rates with huge inflation busting awards
You have no idea of how many people working for a living are in fuel poverty.
You seem to live in a world where you think pensioners are the only people who struggle.
The poorest pensioners will still get this benefit, but the richest won't, that's a reasonable compromise.
There is no reason to ever tax those who are working to give non-universal benefits to people who don't need them.
There are millions of pensioners in the middle of this policy who are going to be frightened this winter to put on the heating
Opposition mps oppose the decision as do some labour mps and certainly groups like age concern
Anyway you have your well known views on this but others disagree
Millions? Quit your scaremongering, they are all just moaning because they'll need to have one fewer holiday.
did you even read the article you linked? it says 'New analysis shows tens of thousands of older people yada yada' certainly not millions.
I dud read it and why I posted it to provide the correct analysis but also you can see how unpopular it is at 49/29 approval with Opinium
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
Why would she adjust it? She doesn't need the pensioner vote.
Pensioners have children and grandchildren and support groups, so not just the pensioners vote
Yes and should those grandchildren be able to have their heating on this summer?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
You cannot seem to understand there is a cohort of pensioners who do not meet Reeves criteria for pension credit often be afew pounds or a small annuity but as most certainly not middle income pensioners
And?
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
What's so special about old people that doesn't apply to young people too?
The most vulnerable age group is the youngest, not the oldest, so if you wanted to make it universal then why not make it universal to young and old?
But making it universal to old people but shafting young people - how can you justify that?
I am saying no more no less than treat people the same. Universal for everyone, or based on need for everyone. That you find that so alien a concept says more about the broken state of politics in this country than it does about me.
The mistake you are making is that the same policy should apply to young and old alike. If there is a need to support young children then design a policy that does that.
Is there anybody rich or famous who wasn't a somehow closely connected to Epstein.....there used to be the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game, due to how many tv shows and movies he had been in, I think you could do an updated version of the game, the 3 degrees of Jeffrey Epstein.
Yes. He was well known to be dodgy as f*ck. those who needed his money (politicians and wealth managers) hung about him as did those who liked his other offerings. Those who were better advised or savvy steered well clear
Its extremely fortunate for a lot of people that Jeff decided to take his own life rather than plea deal down his sentence with promises to expose lots of wrongdoings by others.
That was always the deal. He had a very nice life. Until it ended.
“I was shocked and surprised by it all. I didn’t even know what an elector was,” Mitchell told The Associated Press on Friday. “The crazy thing is it was all forged. None of it was my handwriting. It was definitely not my signature. My email was wrong, my address was wrong.”
Mitchell’s case is the latest example of dubious tactics used in an effort to qualify West, a left-wing academic, for the ballot in states across the U.S. It’s also among the more egregious. It’s an effort that West himself apparently knows nothing about. His campaign did not immediately respond for comment Friday evening.
“If you produce information that is a false on filing to a government entity in Arizona, you’ve committed a felony. It’s just not that complicated,” said Dennis K. Burke, a former U.S. Attorney in Arizona..
..Republicans and their allies have worked to get West on the ballot in Arizona, Wisconsin, Virginia, North Carolina, Nebraska, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Maine.
Their hope is West will serve as a spoiler candidate, boosting former President Donald Trump’s chance of winning in November by siphoning liberal support away from the Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris, in battleground states that could be decided by just a few thousand votes.
While it is not clear who is behind the effort — and there is no indication that Trump’s campaign is directly involved — one thing is certain: It’s not West, who has not been actively campaigning and whose presidential committee, records show, was almost $17,000 in debt at the end of June...
Fairly big move back to Trump on Polymarket since yesterday, now back to 49-49. I don't see much to support a move like that in the polling, any ideas?
I pretty well agree with this. (Except that the current President and Chancellor have indeed been at times objectively pro-Russian.)
https://x.com/deaidua/status/1824847129103184281 Probably a very unpopular opinion today: Yes, today's reports are an unbelievable disgrace and Germany is taking a big step backwards in its support for Ukraine.
BUT: To date, Germany has done more for Ukraine than any other country in Europe (judging by the provided military aid), despite its deep roots and great dependence on Russia (especially) in the first months of the full-scale invasion.
We are supporting the AFU with around €7 billion in 2024, billions more than other European countries. Even our €4 billion next year, would be a major contribution and one of the biggest in Europe.
Without Germany's contributions, Ukraine's air defence would be nowhere near what it is today. Germany paid for the first shells and the largest share of the Czech munitions initiative, and raised around €1 billion in additional assistance through its own initiative.
At a time when the US was facing huge budget problems for many months and tens of billions of US dollars in aid for Ukraine could not be approved, Germany took on a leadership role in the world and, in my opinion, did its best.
Criticism after today's news is justified and definitely welcome on my part. In my eyes, Scholz, like Lindner, has now finally crossed the line.
But anyone who talks today about Germany being ruled by pro-Russian politicians or that we were never there for Ukraine has no idea what they are talking about. Period.
Read a headline, not the article as it's being the ironically named F1 login, on the official website indicating that one chap at least believes the second RB seat is a contest between Ricciardo and Lawson for next year. After a slightly slow start Ricciardo's been doing better lately. On the other hand, Lawson was great as the second substitute previously, and I'm not surprised the team want to keep hold of him.
F1: just got the small sum available on Betfair to back Piastri as winner without Verstappen at 8.
He's 32 points off Norris. In the last four races he's scored 31 points more. Not certain, of course, perhaps not even likely, but certainly credible. I'd take a little at 5+ if you find it elsewhere.
Comments
Pneumonia was identified in the death of 75% of children with special needs in the UK.
Children under 1 year old are more vulnerable than any other age group, including pensioners.
Basic State Pension:
£7376 in 2022/3
£8814 in 2024/5
So near as dammit 20 percent up in two years. Pretty much the same as junior doctors, and I'm pretty sure ahead of inflation. (Which makes sense given how the TL works. Pensions get the inflation uplift when it happens, then a double dib when pays rises follow a year later.)
Which is fine... The 1980s squeeze on the basic pension needs unwinding, but puts the removal of the fuel payment into perspective.
Unless I've got the numbers wrong somehow, whic is definitely possible.
There is a political storm brewing this winter and it will be interesting if the pressure from all sides sees Reeves adjust the policy
The guy is a one man Trump-era GOP massive attack machine.
Why have they hidden him so long?
Fixing that is the right thing to do, even if it means no longer giving you a bung you don't need.
Hmmmm.
https://x.com/DevinCow/status/1824912831613108259
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPSM_j3Er1o
Remember how The Lady viewed mid-term popularity. It was the sign of a sinful government, wasting the opportunity to sow the seeds for success when it counted.
Many pensioners like us do not need it but you seem unable to understand many pensioners simply do not have the pension income and will not put their heating on this winter
One thing I'll note though is I believe you (sorry if I'm wrong) and others have said repeatedly that there's nothing left for the government to cut as the prior government had cut spending to the bone, whenever people like myself said the government should cut expenditure.
Here the government has done the right thing and cut expenditure, expenditure it did not need to spend.
Hopefully the new government can find more cuts like this to make. Cutting wasteful expenditure is never a bad thing and it bemuses me the centre-right posters on this site up in arms because wasteful expenditure has been cut.
Many young people do not have good incomes and will not put it on either.
What's the difference?
OK?
The highest risk age group is babies, not pensioners, yet all you're talking about is complaining that only poor pensioners will get this benefit and middle income pensioners will have to pay their own bills, like poor and middle income families up and down the country.
Anyway let us see how this evolves into winter but I doubt it will be to Reeves benefit (if you excuse the pun)
I would say UC and pension credit - or universal to everyone by which I mean everyone. No reason to say all of one group, even those who don't need it, but screw everyone else even those who do.
Working families on a comparable income with children to provide for don't get it either.
At the end of the day we're all in it together. Grandparents generally want the best for their grandchildren and grandchildren generally want the best for the grandparents.
Most people/generations aren't at loggerheads (other than over Brexit which really did divide the generations)
The most vulnerable people are the youngest. The highest risk age group is 0-1 years old.
I think generally younger people will claim while older people, for a variety of reasons, won't. Could be generalizing there, though.
So what?
There's a cohort of working people who did not meet it either.
People have to make choices. If you want this to be universal it should be universal to everyone, young and old. Or it should be targeted at those who need it, young and old.
I think there's plenty of young people who could and don't too.
If people can make do without claiming, good for them. I see no evidence for your generalisation.
I think PB Lefties have radicalized me! 😂
Will be interesting to see how it plays out over the next six months.
Have a good night PB 👍
The most vulnerable age group is the youngest, not the oldest, so if you wanted to make it universal then why not make it universal to young and old?
But making it universal to old people but shafting young people - how can you justify that?
I am saying no more no less than treat people the same. Universal for everyone, or based on need for everyone. That you find that so alien a concept says more about the broken state of politics in this country than it does about me.
The guy is just nuts.
https://x.com/Acyn/status/1824920189575807270
But be that as it may - my original point was on the optics and the political fall out and on that I think Reeves is in the shitter come this winter.
Have a good night my friend.
I am generally nervous about means testing, particularly when it creates poverty traps. However as a nation we are out of cash, and even if this policy only brings in ten bob, every little helps.
I suppose the PB faithful's criticism of Labour's first, almost 50, days in Government is based on their memory not recalling what came before.
How many babies go to the office? And how many babies stay at home?
If you want to talk about "generally suffer" then the most vulnerable age group is the youngest in this country. Children under 1 year of age are more likely to die from infections than any other age, pensioners come next.
So your logic fails completely. The most vulnerable people in this country to the cold are the youngest, who aren't in offices and aren't getting this "universal" payment.
Either make it universal to everyone, or target it to the poorest who need it based on need - but spaffing money on people who don't need it while denying support to more vulnerable people who do isn't appropriate.
It is well past my bedtime, and I think everything has been said on the subject of the winter fuel allowance and it remains to be seen how this plays out into the winter
Good night all
The winter fuel allowance was introduced by Gordon Brown in 1997 to help older people with their fuel costs
Oh and what was the logic used about removing free university education? It was when fewer people were claiming and it can't be afforded anymore - I believe those were the words right? Well that applies to this too.
As you've admitted, you don't need it. Others need it more and don't get it.
Good for the Government for fixing that.
Nobody should be worried about putting on the heating, whether that be an old person or a young family with a newborn baby. The solution is not though Brown's mess.
https://www.kemibadenoch.org.uk/news/40-years-after-airey-neaves-death-we-ought-reflect-his-legacy-and-value-treating-mps-respect
Nothing to do with need or efficiency
"Tony Blair calls for people to 'rise up' against Brexit"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38996179
Similarly Putin doesn’t get to retire
https://apnews.com/article/ballot-deception-cornel-west-conservatives-0d2c94da68bbd136442e63edadf14398
When Denisha Mitchell was asked why she filled out paperwork to serve as an Arizona elector for the independent presidential candidate Cornel West, her first response was “What?!” Her second: What’s an elector?
“I was shocked and surprised by it all. I didn’t even know what an elector was,” Mitchell told The Associated Press on Friday. “The crazy thing is it was all forged. None of it was my handwriting. It was definitely not my signature. My email was wrong, my address was wrong.”
Mitchell’s case is the latest example of dubious tactics used in an effort to qualify West, a left-wing academic, for the ballot in states across the U.S. It’s also among the more egregious. It’s an effort that West himself apparently knows nothing about. His campaign did not immediately respond for comment Friday evening.
“If you produce information that is a false on filing to a government entity in Arizona, you’ve committed a felony. It’s just not that complicated,” said Dennis K. Burke, a former U.S. Attorney in Arizona..
..Republicans and their allies have worked to get West on the ballot in Arizona, Wisconsin, Virginia, North Carolina, Nebraska, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Maine.
Their hope is West will serve as a spoiler candidate, boosting former President Donald Trump’s chance of winning in November by siphoning liberal support away from the Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris, in battleground states that could be decided by just a few thousand votes.
While it is not clear who is behind the effort — and there is no indication that Trump’s campaign is directly involved — one thing is certain: It’s not West, who has not been actively campaigning and whose presidential committee, records show, was almost $17,000 in debt at the end of June...
(Except that the current President and Chancellor have indeed been at times objectively pro-Russian.)
https://x.com/deaidua/status/1824847129103184281
Probably a very unpopular opinion today: Yes, today's reports are an unbelievable disgrace and Germany is taking a big step backwards in its support for Ukraine.
BUT: To date, Germany has done more for Ukraine than any other country in Europe (judging by the provided military aid), despite its deep roots and great dependence on Russia (especially) in the first months of the full-scale invasion.
We are supporting the AFU with around €7 billion in 2024, billions more than other European countries. Even our €4 billion next year, would be a major contribution and one of the biggest in Europe.
Without Germany's contributions, Ukraine's air defence would be nowhere near what it is today. Germany paid for the first shells and the largest share of the Czech munitions initiative, and raised around €1 billion in additional assistance through its own initiative.
At a time when the US was facing huge budget problems for many months and tens of billions of US dollars in aid for Ukraine could not be approved, Germany took on a leadership role in the world and, in my opinion, did its best.
Criticism after today's news is justified and definitely welcome on my part. In my eyes, Scholz, like Lindner, has now finally crossed the line.
But anyone who talks today about Germany being ruled by pro-Russian politicians or that we were never there for Ukraine has no idea what they are talking about. Period.
Read a headline, not the article as it's being the ironically named F1 login, on the official website indicating that one chap at least believes the second RB seat is a contest between Ricciardo and Lawson for next year. After a slightly slow start Ricciardo's been doing better lately. On the other hand, Lawson was great as the second substitute previously, and I'm not surprised the team want to keep hold of him.
NEW THREAD
He's 32 points off Norris. In the last four races he's scored 31 points more. Not certain, of course, perhaps not even likely, but certainly credible. I'd take a little at 5+ if you find it elsewhere.