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How the Tories may deal with two massive elections at the same time and a budget

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,255
    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391
  • CookieCookie Posts: 12,880
    KnightOut said:

    Cookie said:



    It didn't 'cease to exist'. It just stopped having any official status.

    59 years is a fair while. A lot of geopolitical entities have come and gone since then.

    So, how many years without official status does it take for somewhere to cease to exist?

    Does East Germany still exist, given that it lost official status 25 years after Middlesex?

    Do the kingdoms Wessex and Mercia still 'exist' in some form?

    Is any land anywhere that was ever designated a name and status have a guarantee to exist in perpetuity?
    As long as people recognise it for some purpose - such as Middlesex County Cricket club, or the Middlesex and Surrey sides of the river for the boat race, or the London and Middlesex archaeological society - it exists. You can no more absolish it with a stroke of a bureaucrats pen than you can abolish the Pennines.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,831
    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,478

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    I've seen £1 billion as the cost of paying the junior doctors' salary increase over the next two years.

    A lot of money? Yes and no - for any of us it's a lot of money but set against what the Government spends in its entirety it's nothing. OTOH, the fact remains there's a deficit. As of June, the Government had borrowed nearly £50 billion in the current financial year, ahead of the OBR forecast by about £3.5 billion.

    In 2023-24, the Government borrowed £122 billion which is a serious number. The OBR has forecasted a 24/25 borrowing number of £87 billion but it seems unlikely the Government will be able to keep within that number as it stands for all total borrowing should be down on 23/24.

    I agree with those who say we should be seeking to reduce the deficit and all we differ on are the means not the ends.

    The problem is that junior doctors are only a small part of government payroll, let alone government spending. If junior doctors get that sort of increase, why not nurses? Police? Firemen? A billion here; a billion there... it all adds up.
    Was it not Ronald Reagan (the only American President to have an economics degree) who said a billion here and a billion there and soon you are talking serious money?

    And he didn't have those incompetent pedants in the OBR imposing a lot of completely fatuous restrictions on him based on forecasts which are so far out as to be laughable.

    Edit. And btw why are advocates depute not on that list??
    Meanwhile, if you want to make Ronald Reagan turn in his grave:

    https://x.com/nationaldebt/status/1823831324701946066

    $35trn and counting, rising by an average of $11bn a day so far this month.

    Bidenomics in action.
    Odd to reference Reagan there as the national debt tripled in his tenure. It's much higher now, of course, but he certainly wasn't notable for keeping a cap on the national debt.
    I seem to remember that, somewhat ironically given the way it's played out, Bill Clinton was the only president of my lifetime who reduced the US national debt.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,490

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,014
    Cookie said:

    KnightOut said:

    Cookie said:



    It didn't 'cease to exist'. It just stopped having any official status.

    59 years is a fair while. A lot of geopolitical entities have come and gone since then.

    So, how many years without official status does it take for somewhere to cease to exist?

    Does East Germany still exist, given that it lost official status 25 years after Middlesex?

    Do the kingdoms Wessex and Mercia still 'exist' in some form?

    Is any land anywhere that was ever designated a name and status have a guarantee to exist in perpetuity?
    As long as people recognise it for some purpose - such as Middlesex County Cricket club, or the Middlesex and Surrey sides of the river for the boat race, or the London and Middlesex archaeological society - it exists. You can no more absolish it with a stroke of a bureaucrats pen than you can abolish the Pennines.

    Most of Middlesex became part of Greater London in 1965. The only parts that didn't were Potters Bar (ceded to Hertfordshire), and Staines, Ashford, and Sunbury (all ceded to Surrey).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,336

    O/T Ten Hag getting his excuses in early, I see:

    Man Utd 'not ready' for Fulham - Ten Hag

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5y8g814q3vo

    I had one of those ultra-convincing dreams the other night that Fulham had beaten Man U 6-1 in the opening game on Friday. When I woke up it took me ages to convince myself it was still only Wednesday.

    (I'm hoping it was a dream, not a premonition.)

    Have judged use a free bet to back 6-1 (well any other away win, but whatever).
    Hah! If Fulham win 6-1 I'll be buying a lottery ticket with the numbers I dreamed last night.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,460
    @isam
    ydoethur said:

    Ofgem, Ofwat, EA, all the same...

    Landfill watchdog not fit for purpose, inquiry hears
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ceq5j4xr273o

    The Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales are so underfunded they barely operate as regulators NIEA are reasonably well funded and are far more effective.

    Although I did once work (for five years) with the guy who owns Red Industries who own Whalley's Quarry, I am not personally involved although I am currently dealing with several landfills which are under sanctions. They don't get the inspection visits they used to get which is why we are where we are. I suspect the slurry and raw sewerage pumped into surface waters across England and Wales is what it is because of, essentially , government giving up on "red tape" regulation.

    The last Government's dereliction of duty can be viewed in so many areas. For years we just didn't notice and then over the last couple of years the chickens have come home to roost and we have e-coli in our rivers and domestic windows permanently closed in Newcastle - under-Lyme.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,336
    edited August 15
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Really interesting thread on the Chinese property market, which is currently undergoing what one might euphemistically describe as a ‘correction’.

    https://x.com/macroalf/status/1824051303896539197

    I personally think that this is the biggest economic story in the world right now. Construction/property is over 30% of China's GDP. That needs a massive correction. China has already built enough houses to home another 3bn people.

    If construction grinds to a halt China's GDP will fall by more (in terms of value) than any economy in the history of the world. 2008 will be a rounding error by comparison. That would lead to massive unemployment and the reimpoverishment of much of the Chinese middle class.

    Its not obvious how this can be prevented. Attempts to increase exports to create domestic demand is driving tariffs around the world already. Once again, the scale is incredible. China already exports more solar panels than the rest of the world needs by a large margin. Production simply cannot go on at the current rates. We are seeing similar problems with electric vehicles.

    When will this strike? I am really not sure but when something cannot go on it eventually stops. And when it does it won't just be the China economy that gets hurt.
    Interesting. Any views on how it might impact the wider world economy and more specifically the UK?
    The risks are several as I see them.
    Firstly, there is a real risk of a 1930s tariff war to stop dumping from China. We are already seeing that. Secondly, a very large number of banks, including the 4 largest banks in the world (all Chinese) will collapse without huge recapitalisation. We face a risk of 2008 being repeated.
    Thirdly, there is the risk of serious instability in China and the possible threats to Taiwan that might generate. Fourthly, we might end up with the risk of a refugee crisis the likes of which we have never seen.
    Fifthly, the consequences for Africa and those who have been dependent on belt and road funding will be horrendous. Sixthly, it is very likely we will have shortages of things that we have stopped making for ourselves.
    Seventhly, a lot of our funding for infrastructure, including our new nuclear power stations, will disappear.
    Eighthly, the deflationary impact will hit us all with the collapse in asset prices not being restricted to China.

    Its going to be rough. And it seems the next best thing to inevitable.
    Er, and the bad news is...?

    We're just in the process of selling our house and are going to rent for a year or two while we look for our next place. Think I might put the capital under the mattress.
    I am not qualified or authorised to give financial advice but if I had a nest egg right now I would be looking for a very safe home for it. Gilts or top ranked commercial bonds. This is not really a time to be brave.
    Last time I tried gilts I got stung badly - interest rate fluctuations can seriously affect the capital value of gilts and bonds.

    I think we'll be keeping it on deposit wherever we can get the best rates.
    You can have a real problem if interest rates are going the wrong way. But interest rates are likely to fall anyway and may fall a lot if economic Armageddon breaks out. If that happens the value of gilts or bonds with a 4% return will increase substantially.
    Yes but as you said it's not a time to be brave - Mrs P. will be rather grumpy if I punt it on gilts and interest rates jump for some unforeseen reason. "Sorry dear, I think we might need to look at a park home".
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,194

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Where's Leon when you need him?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,336
    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Where's Leon when you need him?
    Penarth, probably.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,831

    O/T Ten Hag getting his excuses in early, I see:

    Man Utd 'not ready' for Fulham - Ten Hag

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5y8g814q3vo

    I had one of those ultra-convincing dreams the other night that Fulham had beaten Man U 6-1 in the opening game on Friday. When I woke up it took me ages to convince myself it was still only Wednesday.

    (I'm hoping it was a dream, not a premonition.)

    Have judged use a free bet to back 6-1 (well any other away win, but whatever).
    Hah! If Fulham win 6-1 I'll be buying a lottery ticket with the numbers I dreamed last night.
    And I’ll take it!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,831

    O/T Ten Hag getting his excuses in early, I see:

    Man Utd 'not ready' for Fulham - Ten Hag

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5y8g814q3vo

    I had one of those ultra-convincing dreams the other night that Fulham had beaten Man U 6-1 in the opening game on Friday. When I woke up it took me ages to convince myself it was still only Wednesday.

    (I'm hoping it was a dream, not a premonition.)

    Have judged use a free bet to back 6-1 (well any other away win, but whatever).
    Hah! If Fulham win 6-1 I'll be buying a lottery ticket with the numbers I dreamed last night.
    One of my wife’s mums friends always used to get her and her sister a lottery ticket at Christmas as a little present. I always wondered how the friend would feel if one of the tickets had come in big?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,994

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Mpox is definitely not COVID-19 and there is no need to panic.

    However, I would also note that this new variant can be infectious with minimal symptoms, an unhelpful development.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,831
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
    Nope, skin to skin contact still. It’s not respiratory.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    edited August 15

    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Nice to read a news article about Monkeypox in Stockholm half an hour after the taking the most packed bus ride I've ever experienced in that very city. Wish me luck!

    At least as patient zero (one?) I can provide a running commentary on PB as I expire.

    In the 2022-3 mpox outbreak, there were recorded to be 99,518 cases and 207 deaths. Fatality is low, especially with access to good medical care. (That said, 2022-3 was Clade II and the new outbreak is Clade I, which tends to be more severe.)

    Also, the official name is now mpox. The natural reservoir for the virus is probably not monkeys, but rather rodents.
    Plus there exists a vaccine, no?
    Yes. Well, it’s just the smallpox vaccines, but it works on mpox too. And you can have it for a period after infection and it still be effective.
    Thanks. So what happens if one is old enough to have been given the smallpox vaccine?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,970
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Nice to read a news article about Monkeypox in Stockholm half an hour after the taking the most packed bus ride I've ever experienced in that very city. Wish me luck!

    At least as patient zero (one?) I can provide a running commentary on PB as I expire.

    In the 2022-3 mpox outbreak, there were recorded to be 99,518 cases and 207 deaths. Fatality is low, especially with access to good medical care. (That said, 2022-3 was Clade II and the new outbreak is Clade I, which tends to be more severe.)

    Also, the official name is now mpox. The natural reservoir for the virus is probably not monkeys, but rather rodents.
    Plus there exists a vaccine, no?
    Yes. Well, it’s just the smallpox vaccines, but it works on mpox too. And you can have it for a period after infection and it still be effective.
    Thanks. So what happens if one is old enough to have been given the smallpox vaccine?
    Fairly immune to MPox apparently
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
    Those of us old enough to have had smallpox vaccine (stopped in the UK in 1971) should have some immunity.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,014
    Fire near Paddington station
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,970
    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Where's Leon when you need him?
    Annoyingly, he's so old, he probably had the smallpox vaccine. so no matter what his naughty proclivities, he's probably fine. Of course that wouldn't stop him writing some insane scare story, but, you know
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,078

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Really interesting thread on the Chinese property market, which is currently undergoing what one might euphemistically describe as a ‘correction’.

    https://x.com/macroalf/status/1824051303896539197

    I personally think that this is the biggest economic story in the world right now. Construction/property is over 30% of China's GDP. That needs a massive correction. China has already built enough houses to home another 3bn people.

    If construction grinds to a halt China's GDP will fall by more (in terms of value) than any economy in the history of the world. 2008 will be a rounding error by comparison. That would lead to massive unemployment and the reimpoverishment of much of the Chinese middle class.

    Its not obvious how this can be prevented. Attempts to increase exports to create domestic demand is driving tariffs around the world already. Once again, the scale is incredible. China already exports more solar panels than the rest of the world needs by a large margin. Production simply cannot go on at the current rates. We are seeing similar problems with electric vehicles.

    When will this strike? I am really not sure but when something cannot go on it eventually stops. And when it does it won't just be the China economy that gets hurt.
    Interesting. Any views on how it might impact the wider world economy and more specifically the UK?
    The risks are several as I see them.
    Firstly, there is a real risk of a 1930s tariff war to stop dumping from China. We are already seeing that. Secondly, a very large number of banks, including the 4 largest banks in the world (all Chinese) will collapse without huge recapitalisation. We face a risk of 2008 being repeated.
    Thirdly, there is the risk of serious instability in China and the possible threats to Taiwan that might generate. Fourthly, we might end up with the risk of a refugee crisis the likes of which we have never seen.
    Fifthly, the consequences for Africa and those who have been dependent on belt and road funding will be horrendous. Sixthly, it is very likely we will have shortages of things that we have stopped making for ourselves.
    Seventhly, a lot of our funding for infrastructure, including our new nuclear power stations, will disappear.
    Eighthly, the deflationary impact will hit us all with the collapse in asset prices not being restricted to China.

    Its going to be rough. And it seems the next best thing to inevitable.
    Er, and the bad news is...?

    We're just in the process of selling our house and are going to rent for a year or two while we look for our next place. Think I might put the capital under the mattress.
    I am not qualified or authorised to give financial advice but if I had a nest egg right now I would be looking for a very safe home for it. Gilts or top ranked commercial bonds. This is not really a time to be brave.
    Last time I tried gilts I got stung badly - interest rate fluctuations can seriously affect the capital value of gilts and bonds.

    I think we'll be keeping it on deposit wherever we can get the best rates.
    You can have a real problem if interest rates are going the wrong way. But interest rates are likely to fall anyway and may fall a lot if economic Armageddon breaks out. If that happens the value of gilts or bonds with a 4% return will increase substantially.
    Yes but as you said it's not a time to be brave - Mrs P. will be rather grumpy if I punt it on gilts and interest rates jump for some unforeseen reason. "Sorry dear, I think we might need to look at a park home".
    Plus on a timescale of "a year or two" you don't have a long enough time horizon to want to do anything with any volatility to it.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,136
    . . . speaking of St Ronald . . .

    Seattle Times - USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier docks at Naval Base Kitsap

    After nearly a decade deployed in the Indo-Pacific, the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan and its thousands of sailors returned to Bremerton’s Naval Base Kitsap on Tuesday.

    The base will serve as the home port for the aircraft carrier as it undergoes routine maintenance. . . .

    Before arriving in Bremerton [WA], the USS Ronald Reagan had been the Navy’s only aircraft carrier with a home port in a foreign country. The ship departed from Yokosuka, Japan, on May 16, where it had been deployed since 2015.

    During its tenure, the aircraft carrier participated in dozens of multilateral exercises and visited more than a dozen foreign ports, including a historic port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, last year. . . .

    Friends, family and loved ones greeted more than 2,500 sailors onboard the aircraft carrier. . . .

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    Foxy said:

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
    Really shows how London is the arsehole of the British cosmos.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    any interest in scotch eggs ? I have a source
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,593
    Cookie said:

    KnightOut said:

    Cookie said:



    It didn't 'cease to exist'. It just stopped having any official status.

    59 years is a fair while. A lot of geopolitical entities have come and gone since then.

    So, how many years without official status does it take for somewhere to cease to exist?

    Does East Germany still exist, given that it lost official status 25 years after Middlesex?

    Do the kingdoms Wessex and Mercia still 'exist' in some form?

    Is any land anywhere that was ever designated a name and status have a guarantee to exist in perpetuity?
    As long as people recognise it for some purpose - such as Middlesex County Cricket club, or the Middlesex and Surrey sides of the river for the boat race, or the London and Middlesex archaeological society - it exists. You can no more absolish it with a stroke of a bureaucrats pen than you can abolish the Pennines.

    The administrative entity known as Middlesex County Council ceased to exist in 1965 but the name Middlesex lives on just as Wessex and Mercia live on even though the two kingdoms have long since passed into history.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128
    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
    Really shows how London is the arsehole of the British cosmos.
    Or perhaps that Oxford Circus is the centre of the new Death Star.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,097

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    Well someone’s keeping busy!

    How would you have coped if you were an MP right now?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452

    . . . speaking of St Ronald . . .

    Seattle Times - USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier docks at Naval Base Kitsap

    After nearly a decade deployed in the Indo-Pacific, the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan and its thousands of sailors returned to Bremerton’s Naval Base Kitsap on Tuesday.

    The base will serve as the home port for the aircraft carrier as it undergoes routine maintenance. . . .

    Before arriving in Bremerton [WA], the USS Ronald Reagan had been the Navy’s only aircraft carrier with a home port in a foreign country. The ship departed from Yokosuka, Japan, on May 16, where it had been deployed since 2015.

    During its tenure, the aircraft carrier participated in dozens of multilateral exercises and visited more than a dozen foreign ports, including a historic port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, last year. . . .

    Friends, family and loved ones greeted more than 2,500 sailors onboard the aircraft carrier. . . .

    I went on the Nimitz back around 1975 when it visited the Firth of Forth. Never forgotten that visit. Too big to come into port so we just got a boat ride out there and I had a wander around for an hour or two. All one had to do was to get a ticket from the US Consulate.

    Not sure if they'd do that today. Last time I was in Plymouth a US submarine was in dock with orange buoys all around and, presumably, guarded by US people with automatic rifles and LMGs on the territory of the UK.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,627

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    any interest in scotch eggs ? I have a source
    I like eating them? Otherwise no...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    any interest in scotch eggs ? I have a source
    I like eating them? Otherwise no...
    Yes but are they a meal, or a bar snack?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,627
    Sandpit said:

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    Well someone’s keeping busy!

    How would you have coped if you were an MP right now?
    1. Would have quit consultancy
    2. YouTube channel would have evolved into a politics channel
    3. Wouldn't be launching the toy business
    4. Would have been at home more...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    any interest in scotch eggs ? I have a source
    I like eating them? Otherwise no...
    Not much point importing them for you, either.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,136

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Where's Leon when you need him?
    Annoyingly, he's so old, he probably had the smallpox vaccine. so no matter what his naughty proclivities, he's probably fine. Of course that wouldn't stop him writing some insane scare story, but, you know
    Annoyingly Leon won’t die?

    Isn’t that a bit fucking mental?

    He’s stopped posting, but you want him dead to be sure?

    Christ alive some of you are obsessed with him
    He grows on one. Like a really bad rash. Or RFK Jr's brain worm.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    any interest in scotch eggs ? I have a source
    I like eating them? Otherwise no...
    well if you change your mind I work with a guy who runs a scotch egg factory
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,136
    Carnyx said:

    . . . speaking of St Ronald . . .

    Seattle Times - USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier docks at Naval Base Kitsap

    After nearly a decade deployed in the Indo-Pacific, the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan and its thousands of sailors returned to Bremerton’s Naval Base Kitsap on Tuesday.

    The base will serve as the home port for the aircraft carrier as it undergoes routine maintenance. . . .

    Before arriving in Bremerton [WA], the USS Ronald Reagan had been the Navy’s only aircraft carrier with a home port in a foreign country. The ship departed from Yokosuka, Japan, on May 16, where it had been deployed since 2015.

    During its tenure, the aircraft carrier participated in dozens of multilateral exercises and visited more than a dozen foreign ports, including a historic port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, last year. . . .

    Friends, family and loved ones greeted more than 2,500 sailors onboard the aircraft carrier. . . .

    I went on the Nimitz back around 1975 when it visited the Firth of Forth. Never forgotten that visit. Too big to come into port so we just got a boat ride out there and I had a wander around for an hour or two. All one had to do was to get a ticket from the US Consulate.

    Not sure if they'd do that today. Last time I was in Plymouth a US submarine was in dock with orange buoys all around and, presumably, guarded by US people with automatic rifles and LMGs on the territory of the UK.
    Yours truly can view the (exterior of) USS Ronald Reagan, by simply taking the ferry ride from Seattle to Bremerton.

    Years ago did that with USS Missouri. Then Hawaii stole it from WA!

    Last year took TheBus to Pearl Harbor and saw it again, this time outside AND in. Including the spot where Gen. Douglas MacArthur accepted the surrender of Japan, 79 years ago next month.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    Junior did his studies at Southampton in the end . But for a Brummie lad it came as a hit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,014
    Foxy said:

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
    It's crap, son!
  • Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Where's Leon when you need him?
    Annoyingly, he's so old, he probably had the smallpox vaccine. so no matter what his naughty proclivities, he's probably fine. Of course that wouldn't stop him writing some insane scare story, but, you know
    Annoyingly Leon won’t die?

    Isn’t that a bit fucking mental?

    He’s stopped posting, but you want him dead to be sure?

    Christ alive some of you are obsessed with him
    He grows on one. Like a really bad rash. Or RFK Jr's brain worm.
    In fairness, JFK Jr's brain worm was dead when it was removed, not growing. Passed away due to malnutrition, apparently. Very sad.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 582
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
    Those of us old enough to have had smallpox vaccine (stopped in the UK in 1971) should have some immunity.
    At what age was it given? I remember the BCG and polio sugar lumps but will I have had smallpox? Born 1963
  • Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Where's Leon when you need him?
    Annoyingly, he's so old, he probably had the smallpox vaccine. so no matter what his naughty proclivities, he's probably fine. Of course that wouldn't stop him writing some insane scare story, but, you know
    Annoyingly Leon won’t die?

    Isn’t that a bit fucking mental?

    He’s stopped posting, but you want him dead to be sure?

    Christ alive some of you are obsessed with him
    He grows on one. Like a really bad rash. Or RFK Jr's brain worm.
    In fairness, JFK Jr's brain worm was dead when it was removed, not growing. Passed away due to malnutrition, apparently. Very sad.
    Or RFK Jr even.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452

    Carnyx said:

    . . . speaking of St Ronald . . .

    Seattle Times - USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier docks at Naval Base Kitsap

    After nearly a decade deployed in the Indo-Pacific, the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan and its thousands of sailors returned to Bremerton’s Naval Base Kitsap on Tuesday.

    The base will serve as the home port for the aircraft carrier as it undergoes routine maintenance. . . .

    Before arriving in Bremerton [WA], the USS Ronald Reagan had been the Navy’s only aircraft carrier with a home port in a foreign country. The ship departed from Yokosuka, Japan, on May 16, where it had been deployed since 2015.

    During its tenure, the aircraft carrier participated in dozens of multilateral exercises and visited more than a dozen foreign ports, including a historic port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, last year. . . .

    Friends, family and loved ones greeted more than 2,500 sailors onboard the aircraft carrier. . . .

    I went on the Nimitz back around 1975 when it visited the Firth of Forth. Never forgotten that visit. Too big to come into port so we just got a boat ride out there and I had a wander around for an hour or two. All one had to do was to get a ticket from the US Consulate.

    Not sure if they'd do that today. Last time I was in Plymouth a US submarine was in dock with orange buoys all around and, presumably, guarded by US people with automatic rifles and LMGs on the territory of the UK.
    Yours truly can view the (exterior of) USS Ronald Reagan, by simply taking the ferry ride from Seattle to Bremerton.

    Years ago did that with USS Missouri. Then Hawaii stole it from WA!

    Last year took TheBus to Pearl Harbor and saw it again, this time outside AND in. Including the spot where Gen. Douglas MacArthur accepted the surrender of Japan, 79 years ago next month.
    My dad was in the RN fleet sent out to the Pacific - fortunately for him his ship only got there just after the bombs. But the chaps in the ship's darkroom were evidently making a mint out of running off copies of the official photos of the surrender - I have yet to sort out his photo collection but there are some there.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,255
    Foxy said:

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
    I meant to flag this up yesterday.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
    Those of us old enough to have had smallpox vaccine (stopped in the UK in 1971) should have some immunity.
    At what age was it given? I remember the BCG and polio sugar lumps but will I have had smallpox? Born 1963
    In my case, about 2 months (this has prompted me to fish out my record card just to be sure).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600
    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
    Those of us old enough to have had smallpox vaccine (stopped in the UK in 1971) should have some immunity.
    At what age was it given? I remember the BCG and polio sugar lumps but will I have had smallpox? Born 1963
    It was routine for infants until 1962, but uptake dropped across the UK when it was made optional, so hard to be sure.

    I had it
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,365
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,365
    Foxy said:

    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Mpox: UK preparing after virus declared global emergency - as Sweden records first case

    Preparations include making sure rapid testing will be available. A global emergency has been declared, with one expert stating there are reports of cases in 16 countries in Africa."

    https://news.sky.com/story/mpox-uk-health-officials-preparing-for-cases-of-new-strain-of-virus-but-say-risk-to-population-is-low-13197391

    I know we are all scarred from covid, but it’s important to realise that mpox is NOT covid. It’s only infectious when symptomatic, for a start. That makes contact tracing much easier. Plus we already have viable vaccines.
    It’s right to be prepared, but I sense the sensationalists are out looking to do 2020 (and to be fair 2021, 2022 etc again).
    Depends. Is it airborne now? Much easier to catch if so than just by gay sex massages. And highly conflicting stories on mortality rate.
    Those of us old enough to have had smallpox vaccine (stopped in the UK in 1971) should have some immunity.
    At what age was it given? I remember the BCG and polio sugar lumps but will I have had smallpox? Born 1963
    It was routine for infants until 1962, but uptake dropped across the UK when it was made optional, so hard to be sure.

    I had it
    I got it at the airport in Corfu in the early 70s.
    There must have been a scare at the time.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,198
    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    Isn't it the case that very competent/able men are drawn in to things that are more entrepreneurial, and less bureaucratic/rule based? It seems like medicine has tilted significantly towards the latter in the last 20 years.

    I am not sure about this idea that the decline of medicine is really about 'declining prestige', if it was correct, wouldn't women be quitting/avoid the industry as well? Why would women be drawn to something that has 'declining prestige'?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,097
    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    That's Conservative legislation and Conservative guidance. So of course it's being reviewed. New government. But as the article says there is no indication what might be changed.

    The DT does have a record for shit-stirring - it'd be worse than the farmer behind our house except that the stuff in his trailer isn't imaginary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600
    edited August 15
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    Isn't it the case that very competent/able men are drawn in to things that are more entrepreneurial, and less bureaucratic/rule based? It seems like medicine has tilted significantly towards the latter in the last 20 years.

    I am not sure about this idea that the decline of medicine is really about 'declining prestige', if it was correct, wouldn't women be quitting/avoid the industry as well? Why would women be drawn to something that has 'declining prestige'?
    The argument is that Medicine is still relatively prestigious for women still, retaining a feminist aura.

    Also because of institutionalised patriarchy, that women have a high rate of "Imposter Syndrome" so more willing to accept inferior posts. The same reason that women are often passed over for promotion.

    It's noticeable that while most specialities are now female dominated, the ones thought more prestigious by wider society (incidentally also the specialities with highest earnings) such as the surgical specialities remain male dominated. It isn't down simply to sexism at appointment as female scores at BST are higher than the males, but that fewer apply for Higher Specialist Training (years ST4-7).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600
    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,977
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,365
    Missed this on Tuesday.
    Quite the long read.

    As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov?CMP=share_btn_url

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
    It's more to do with how mobs in Middlesborough refuse entry to cars with Asian drivers and stone Mosques. Why would a bright Asian Medical Student choose that over The Golden Mile?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,977
    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Evidentially tricky. Where is A.P. Herbert when you need him?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,831
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
    It's more to do with how mobs in Middlesborough refuse entry to cars with Asian drivers and stone Mosques. Why would a bright Asian Medical Student choose that over The Golden Mile?
    Also culturally Asians are more likely to study while living at home.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
    It's more to do with how mobs in Middlesborough refuse entry to cars with Asian drivers and stone Mosques. Why would a bright Asian Medical Student choose that over The Golden Mile?
    Also culturally Asians are more likely to study while living at home.
    Yes, or at least fairly nearby.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
  • algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
    The nearest village to Marlborough is Mildenhall

    For some reason it’s pronounced Minal

    The village hall is signposted as Minal Village Hall
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,845

    Sandpit said:

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    Well someone’s keeping busy!

    How would you have coped if you were an MP right now?
    1. Would have quit consultancy
    2. YouTube channel would have evolved into a politics channel
    3. Wouldn't be launching the toy business
    4. Would have been at home more...
    5. Would be racking up some serious 73 and 92 mileage on the Sleeper!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,977

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    Both sides seem determined to fail to comprehend what the other side is talking about. Is it really so hard to see the strengths of positions not held by oneself?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    Both sides seem determined to fail to comprehend what the other side is talking about. Is it really so hard to see the strengths of positions not held by oneself?
    You can understand someone's position but you dont have to agree with ir.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,309

    Republicans against Trump
    @RpsAgainstTrump
    ·
    2h
    Republican pollster Frank Luntz: “There are people who had voted for Trump in 2020 that will not vote for him again because they are tired of his rude and abusive behavior. He is literally losing this election & I’m starting to wonder, does he want to lose?”

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1824148701599895801
  • eekeek Posts: 27,343

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    I don’t think the foetus will hear or see the protest let alone understand what was happening
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,736
    edited August 15
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
    Really shows how London is the arsehole of the British cosmos.
    I thought arseholes only featured in a Clockwork Orange? Or so I hear!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,128
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    I don’t think the foetus will hear or see the protest let alone understand what was happening
    your first three words sum it up
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,198
    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Not linked to this, but what I think people have come to realise, is that in the UK criminal offences have been created over the past 40 years that encompass everyday activity which is commonly and mistakenly understood to be protected under 'free speech' (ie: harrassment, malicious communications, disorder) that can just be enacted/ switched on, with sufficiently flexible 'sentencing guidelines' to arrest/imprison people, almost without limit, whenever convenient for the state. It is part of the British system of policing and public order.

    If you listen to the retired senior police officers, whenever they get interviewed on the TV or whatever, they tend to warn about the extreme dangers about using these powers irresponsibly - but the temptation is always there, and the next generation is clearly going to push on with it, with likely disastrous consequences.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,016

    Washington Post (via Seattle Times) - Kamala Harris is among 1 in 8 Americans who have worked at McDonald’s

    Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris is emphasizing her middle-class bona fides, and one of the lines she’s coming to rely on in public appearances to make that case is a lesser-known entry on her résumé: former McDonald’s worker.

    In an ad that debuted Friday, the Harris campaign highlighted her stint at the Golden Arches. As the camera pans across a set of vintage family photos, the narrator intones: “She grew up in a middle-class home. She was the daughter of a working mom. And she worked at McDonald’s while she got her degree.”

    Harris also mentioned the job at Saturday’s rally in Las Vegas, where she told an enthusiastic crowd that “only in America” could two middle-class kids — referring to herself and her running mate, Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz — grow up to be on a ballot for the nation’s highest offices. “I had a summer job at McDonald’s,” she said, by way of underscoring her humble background. . . .

    . . . . [McDonald's] said it surveyed a representative sample of American adults and found that 13.7% of people said they had worked or currently work for the chain. . . .

    Of course, Trump is no stranger to McDonald’s, although his experience is on the other side of the register. . . . Campaign-finance disclosures have shown Trump’s presidential campaign is spending heavily at the chain. He had delivery orders brought in during both his fraud trial in October and his hush-money trial in April. And he famously served Big Macs several times to athletes visiting the White House. . . .

    SSI - Can anyone produce ANY evidence, that Donald Trump has ever done a honest day's work in his entire life?'

    Don't bet on it!

    "only in America" can educated people be so ignorant. Tbf I doubt she believes it herself but her audience laps it up, ridiculous!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    edited August 15
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Fire near Paddington station

    Calling Sunil. New Tube map goes viral...

    BBC News - Tube map redesigned by Essex lecturer goes viral
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9843r0dz3go
    Really shows how London is the arsehole of the British cosmos.
    I thought arseholes only featured in a Clockwork Orange? Or so I hear!
    Tut, surely that's no way to speak of our Glaswegian compatriots riding on the underground there.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,600

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Perfectly legal healthcare in GB. In Ireland too, and rightly so.

    Whether you or I would want one is beside the point. It's for women to choose what to do with their bodies, not middle aged men.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,853
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Perfectly legal healthcare in GB. In Ireland too, and rightly so.

    Whether you or I would want one is beside the point. It's for women to choose what to do with their bodies, not middle aged men.

    It isn't fully, otherwise we would allow abortion until birth
  • eekeek Posts: 27,343
    kamski said:

    Washington Post (via Seattle Times) - Kamala Harris is among 1 in 8 Americans who have worked at McDonald’s

    Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris is emphasizing her middle-class bona fides, and one of the lines she’s coming to rely on in public appearances to make that case is a lesser-known entry on her résumé: former McDonald’s worker.

    In an ad that debuted Friday, the Harris campaign highlighted her stint at the Golden Arches. As the camera pans across a set of vintage family photos, the narrator intones: “She grew up in a middle-class home. She was the daughter of a working mom. And she worked at McDonald’s while she got her degree.”

    Harris also mentioned the job at Saturday’s rally in Las Vegas, where she told an enthusiastic crowd that “only in America” could two middle-class kids — referring to herself and her running mate, Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz — grow up to be on a ballot for the nation’s highest offices. “I had a summer job at McDonald’s,” she said, by way of underscoring her humble background. . . .

    . . . . [McDonald's] said it surveyed a representative sample of American adults and found that 13.7% of people said they had worked or currently work for the chain. . . .

    Of course, Trump is no stranger to McDonald’s, although his experience is on the other side of the register. . . . Campaign-finance disclosures have shown Trump’s presidential campaign is spending heavily at the chain. He had delivery orders brought in during both his fraud trial in October and his hush-money trial in April. And he famously served Big Macs several times to athletes visiting the White House. . . .

    SSI - Can anyone produce ANY evidence, that Donald Trump has ever done a honest day's work in his entire life?'

    Don't bet on it!

    "only in America" can educated people be so ignorant. Tbf I doubt she believes it herself but her audience laps it up, ridiculous!
    There at least 2 people on here who demonstrate that educated people can be incredibly ignorant
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,097
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Perfectly legal healthcare in GB. In Ireland too, and rightly so.

    Whether you or I would want one is beside the point. It's for women to choose what to do with their bodies, not middle aged men.

    It isn't fully, otherwise we would allow abortion until birth
    Thankfully the UK isn’t Minnesota.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,803
    edited August 15

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Mind your own damn biz-ness!

    Walz is a genius. Such an ear-worm.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,736

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    That feels a little virtue-signally. And very difficult to word. What does "a person praying silently" look like, and how does Constable Savage or PC Copper detect one?

    Surely Councils can already ban this via a PSPO, which are essentially designed to allow anything to be banned with no need for evidence as the Council just has to assert that some exists, and open a consultation for 6 weeks, with a very small number of people allowed to challenge and they have do a challenge in I think the High Court, and then implement it?

    My Council (I discovered last week) thinks it can use a PSPO to close Public Rights of Way to the Public, on pain of a £100 fine.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,627

    Sandpit said:

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    Well someone’s keeping busy!

    How would you have coped if you were an MP right now?
    1. Would have quit consultancy
    2. YouTube channel would have evolved into a politics channel
    3. Wouldn't be launching the toy business
    4. Would have been at home more...
    5. Would be racking up some serious 73 and 92 mileage on the Sleeper!
    Would have been more reliable than easyJet.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,343
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Perfectly legal healthcare in GB. In Ireland too, and rightly so.

    Whether you or I would want one is beside the point. It's for women to choose what to do with their bodies, not middle aged men.

    It isn't fully, otherwise we would allow abortion until birth
    Thankfully the UK isn’t Minnesota.
    It is actually see https://www.davidgray.co.uk/blog/crime/uk-abortion-law/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,255
    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Stupid idea.
  • The much repeated two massive elections fnarr fnarr, along with recent revelations about Gove’s massive whatever, might suggest that the author is looking for a well hung Palmer to complete the threesome
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,853
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    I've seen £1 billion as the cost of paying the junior doctors' salary increase over the next two years.

    A lot of money? Yes and no - for any of us it's a lot of money but set against what the Government spends in its entirety it's nothing. OTOH, the fact remains there's a deficit. As of June, the Government had borrowed nearly £50 billion in the current financial year, ahead of the OBR forecast by about £3.5 billion.

    In 2023-24, the Government borrowed £122 billion which is a serious number. The OBR has forecasted a 24/25 borrowing number of £87 billion but it seems unlikely the Government will be able to keep within that number as it stands for all total borrowing should be down on 23/24.

    I agree with those who say we should be seeking to reduce the deficit and all we differ on are the means not the ends.

    The problem is that junior doctors are only a small part of government payroll, let alone government spending. If junior doctors get that sort of increase, why not nurses? Police? Firemen? A billion here; a billion there... it all adds up.
    Was it not Ronald Reagan (the only American President to have an economics degree) who said a billion here and a billion there and soon you are talking serious money?

    And he didn't have those incompetent pedants in the OBR imposing a lot of completely fatuous restrictions on him based on forecasts which are so far out as to be laughable.


    Edit. And btw why are advocates depute not on that list??
    Reagan studied economics and sociology at Eureka, Bush 41 graduated from Yale too with a BA in economics
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Perfectly legal healthcare in GB. In Ireland too, and rightly so.

    Whether you or I would want one is beside the point. It's for women to choose what to do with their bodies, not middle aged men.

    It isn't fully, otherwise we would allow abortion until birth
    Thankfully the UK isn’t Minnesota.
    It is actually see https://www.davidgray.co.uk/blog/crime/uk-abortion-law/
    Still permits up to birth in certain cases.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,246

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
    The nearest village to Marlborough is Mildenhall

    For some reason it’s pronounced Minal

    The village hall is signposted as Minal Village Hall
    For some reason the people of North Norfolk pronounce Stiffkey as Stookey.

    I believe this is an example of a shibboleth.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,472
    Nigelb said:

    Missed this on Tuesday.
    Quite the long read.

    As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov?CMP=share_btn_url

    Thanks for linking to that, some very powerful writing. It chimes with what I sense is happening in Israel but don’t feel qualified or informed enough to express. Tragic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,853
    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Stupid idea.
    Starmer is an atheist like his father, no surprise
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,452
    edited August 15

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    My GP mates son is also a GP. He found Birmingham had no interest in candidates unless they were Asian women
    It's simply that they score better at interview. I would guess that in Leicester half our Medical Students are Asian females.

    Leicester and Brum are particularly popular with Asian applicants as seen as Asian friendly cities, compared with places like Middlesborough.
    And I bet most people in Middlesbrough can't spell Lester either.
    The nearest village to Marlborough is Mildenhall

    For some reason it’s pronounced Minal

    The village hall is signposted as Minal Village Hall
    For some reason the people of North Norfolk pronounce Stiffkey as Stookey.

    I believe this is an example of a shibboleth.

    Well known, *including pronunciation*, to military vehicle nerds as the name of a sighting attachment for a Bofors gun in WW2 which obviated the need for director control at the cost of having a brown job standing at the gun to tweak it now and then. (There was a training area at the village.)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/2tvc58/bofors_40_mml60_this_example_includes_the/

    So, yes, a shibboleth for those who know their LAA.

    Also for a defrocked rector who ended up as a lion tamer. Or so I seem to recall.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,472
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Perfectly legal healthcare in GB. In Ireland too, and rightly so.

    Whether you or I would want one is beside the point. It's for women to choose what to do with their bodies, not middle aged men.

    At least we now know who’d be in favour of Islamists praying for divine conversion therapy outside gay clubs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,129

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Home Office now to consider banning people silently praying in the street.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/15/home-office-review-ban-silent-prayer-abortion-clinics/

    Only those in exclusion zones outside abortion clinics.

    We really don't want that US practice of intimidating picketing of clinics here.
    Ooh thats a tough one.

    What if we go all BLM , take the knee, and say Babies Lives Matter ?
    As long as it's not within an exclusion zone go right ahead.

    Women deserve to be able to seek legal healthcare without intimidation.

    When I worked in Chritchurch NZ there was a more or less permanent picket of evangelicals outside the abortion clinic. It was unpleasant for staff to run the gauntlet, but far more so for vulnerable patients.
    But probably not as unpleasant as for the baby that was about to get snuffed
    Mayday Mayday, 'Abortion is Murder' sentiment on the loose!

    I sense you'd be a generally happier camper if all those civil rights battles of 50+ years ago had gone the other way.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,167
    edited August 15
    TimS said:

    Evening all! Having a beer on a Thursday night. Bad boy. But also a busy boy:

    Big client projects keeping me busy despite both big client businesses (France and Spain) largely being on holiday in August. LOTS of travel over the last 6 weeks.

    YouTube channel keeping me busy. So much content planned / shot. Doing an all-day driving challenge on Saturday, then a Big Client trip next week that won't get released on the channel til October. Have expensive box of stuff to install on the car and review and more on the way over from China. Insurance renewal coming soon (scary) but revenues are up.

    Wifey's shop needed some back office intervention. Bad supplier managed, trade recovering back in August after a crappy July.

    And the exciting new bit - first shipment of stock inbound for my new ecommerce business. I've built / operated 3 such operations for clients (and still have one of them live) but this is the first one with my own cash. And I get to bring my 16 year old in and team him everything I know about business. He may want to do this (we're selling HIS passion...) long term, he may not. But its low(ish) risk and stressful fun.

    Politics? A summer off. With council byelections incoming...

    any interest in scotch eggs ? I have a source
    I like eating them? Otherwise no...
    I’ve been enjoying putting wine in our new Soda Stream.

    Though SS seems to have become a bit puritanical these days. They warn you never to put anything but water in. What a waste. Juice, wine, milk, coffee… so you end up doing the carbonation while feeling a bit naughty. Why can’t they bring out a new soda stream machine that is designed for a wider variety of drinks.

    Anyway I ignored the advice and carbonated a bottle of muscadet. Very pleasantly pétillant, though it loses any complexity or lees-richness it might have had as a still wine.
    In Italy, I had a flatmate who could supply a fizzy Frecciarossa variant by the bucket, so this is not an unknown concept (don't know if it was vinyard seconds or a genuine sparkling red, which are present in the Oltrepò). When a bit too old used to mix 50/50 with coke to make something we knew as colamaccio and finish it off.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,309
    My free Spad advice of the evening:

    Bridget Phillipson needs to learn to speak slower.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,198
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    ...

    Rachel Reeves is a waste of space.

    Still spitting the dummy out because your team were well beaten?
    Oh now your just plain boring. I didnt vote in the last election. But its for you to justify the failures of this government for the next 5 years.

    Massive public sector pay rises with no productivity attached ? We all know the outcome.

    But I'll leave to you to justify closing down the North Sea and putting Scots out of work. Off you go.
    How well do you think productivity was rolling along with train strikes, NHS strikes and academics striking?
    LOL youre only debating how fast public sector productivity will fall.
    No I am not. I am suggesting that with improved morale comes improved performance
    Morale is about objectives and leadership. Pay rises buy people off temporarily but if nothing else improves it soon sinks back. In this case nothing has changed.
    That's a very narrow minded view, particularly in the light that in many of these cases safety was also an issue on the table.

    When it comes down to doctors, nurses and teachers, pissing them off so royally that they leave the sector and even the country, is doing nothing for productivity.
    You see pay as the issue I dont. The pay is a symptom of poor organisation. If we trained enough doctors and nurses we wouldnt have the problems we have. A 22% pay rise will not solve the doctor problem. Training more doctors will.
    You are seeing supply and demand economics as an answer to, for example, a shortage of Junior Doctors. Adding to the supply would indeed in theory bring wages down. In the same way Stellantis have built lots of Vauxhall cars that they can't sell, so to sell them they discount the prices, but that doesn't work with Junior Doctors. If the demand in the UK for Doctors decreases they **** off to somewhere else to achieve their self-perceived value.

    Actually I dont. I see a government prepared to raise its labour bill by 22%. It will spend the money and nothing will change the doctors have already said they will be back for more. If they re going to spend the money they should give them a pay rise in line with inflation and spend say 12% on more doctors. With more doctors they can then treat more patients and also address the ridiculous working hours some doctors have to work to keep the system functioning. And if they are recruiting they should perhaps consider recruiting less women doctors.
    Yes, I'm sure paying less and alienating half the potential workforce will work wonders for recruitment and retention.
    Shows how little you know what goes on.

    Over 50% of those recruited are female. As a good GP friend of mine pointed out the new intake aim to secure a position and then work 3 days a week. My daughter has two friends both female doctors who are aiming to do precisely this. So if we are paying for full time training but getting part time employees it would make sense to look at this.
    Consider availablity, though.

    There are about 60 thousand young people who do A Level Chemistry each year, which is the core qualification to go on to do a medical degree.

    We currently have about 7500 places on medical degree courses each year, with plans to increase that. So as it stands, we're taking a bit more than ten percent of available eighteen year olds. (And trust me, there are many reasons why we don't want all of them doing medicine.) Besides, we need lots of them to do other things with their lives as well. The more you squeeze women out, the higher percentage of men you need. At some point, it stops being sensible.

    It would be great to have more doctors, especially if you want to use a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" model of management. But the time and cost of training and the human limit on people who can effectively practice medicine, put limits on that.

    Besides, if the pay fails to keep up with the alternatives, why would people choose to study medicine?
    That I think is part of the problem. Pay. For a long time, the highest status, best paid career open to scientifically-inclined sixth formers was medicine, and by a long way. Recently, working in computers or even more so in the City has taken over, so junior doctors now look at their old school chums and see how much better some are doing. They then are tempted by Australia for twice the money, or management consultancy.

    As an aside, this might ease the path of those for whom medicine is a vocation not just a pay packet.
    There is an interesting argument that the feminisation of medicine in the UK is because of the declining prestige of the profession. The line is that ambitious intelligent young men go into tech or the city as these are now more prestigious and financially rewarding, leaving medicine to equally intelligent but more socially skilled and rounded women. It's not that men have been pushed out, more that they left a vacuum.
    Isn't it the case that very competent/able men are drawn in to things that are more entrepreneurial, and less bureaucratic/rule based? It seems like medicine has tilted significantly towards the latter in the last 20 years.

    I am not sure about this idea that the decline of medicine is really about 'declining prestige', if it was correct, wouldn't women be quitting/avoid the industry as well? Why would women be drawn to something that has 'declining prestige'?
    The argument is that Medicine is still relatively prestigious for women still, retaining a feminist aura.

    Also because of institutionalised patriarchy, that women have a high rate of "Imposter Syndrome" so more willing to accept inferior posts. The same reason that women are often passed over for promotion.

    It's noticeable that while most specialities are now female dominated, the ones thought more prestigious by wider society (incidentally also the specialities with highest earnings) such as the surgical specialities remain male dominated. It isn't down simply to sexism at appointment as female scores at BST are higher than the males, but that fewer apply for Higher Specialist Training (years ST4-7).
    Just out of interest, has the idea of 'getting more men in to the industry, particularly where they are underrepresented' entered the discourse yet? Or is the tendency to look for and find societal explanations (ie the 'patriarchy') to explain the situation.

    In my own (similarly female dominated) public sector field I just find these discussions to be quite inauthentic and fake, so I don't really get involved in them. We did have an equalities report which I read all 60 pages of, it had mostly quite ok ideas, but somewhat buried in the report was the fact that my department - below very senior management level - was overrepresented by women and ethnic minorities, a particular problem being that the 'white british', which still form a majority of the local population, were significantly under-represented. There are actually only 3 out of about 30 people that meet this definition (including me).
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