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Tory leadership contenders are close to outing themselves – politicalbetting.com

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162
    MattW said:

    Yo mofos.
    I didn’t think the Cybertruck could be made to look worse. I was wrong.

    https://x.com/erininthemorn/status/1813394499306987818?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    I just twigged that the USA Election is on Bonfire Night.

    That seems appropriate, somehow.
    A neat symmetry to ours being on US independence day
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    I think it says a great deal for the paucity of Tory talent that the list of leadership candidates is so weak.

    Braverman is aggressive and has a tin ear, not only for the opinions of the nation, but even her own colleagues. Patel has all of the above, but is also seen as personally difficult to work with. Kemi Badenoch is a lightweight. Tugendhat, despite being a Brexiteer, is what passes for a moderate in the current Conservative Party, but his judgement has been questioned on several occasions.

    It is hard to believe that any of these could bring the Tories back in one Parliament, or even two or three.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    edited July 17
    Leadership approval polling

    11–12 Jul 2024 We Think 2,005 Pos: 38% Neg: 15% Net:+23

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Before the GE Starmer was hovering around minus 3-5% net approval .... that is some bounce. I have to say the labour government have come off to a dream start. Next big hurdle will be the Trump presidency I guess.... I have a feeling that will be craycray on so many levels.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,037
    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    HYUFD said:

    Badenoch and Braverman lacked enough support last time amongst Tory MPs to make the final two, Braverman even trailed Tugendhat. Patel probably also trails with MPs.

    Tugendhat will also benefit from the fact the Tory parliamentary party is much more southern than in 2019. He also likely wins most Scottish Tory MPs.

    Jenrick is the only contender who openly backed Sunak v Truss so likely gets much of Sunak's MP support with the rest mainly going to Tugendhat. So I expect a Tugendhat and Jenrick final two most likely with Jenrick narrowly winning the membership.

    Jenrick also looks most like the Hague or Ed Miliband of this leadership contest to take over the party in opposition having lost power

    Though of the top three in 2022, two have been weighed and found wanting, and the other is no longer an MP. Between them, they got over eighty percent of the votes in the round of four.

    There are roughly three lanes (actual centrist, think Tugendhat; continuity Sunakite; hard right) but only two go to the membership. So one question is which lane fizzles out before the final. Another is how Badenoch styles herself; does she embrace her time in government or deny it? I suspect she would beat Tom T with ease, but would struggle against a fruitier right winger like Patel or Braverman.
    The hard right fizzles, much of the ERG and Truss right eg Rees Mogg, Simon Clarke, Truss herself, Jenkyns and almost all the redwall lost their seats. Even in 2022 the ERG couldn't get Braverman or Badenoch in the last 2 with Tory MPs let alone now and some of Truss' support was more centrist, even Tugendhat backed her and will gain some of her support.

    Sunak's support amongst MPs last time who held their seats largely goes to Jenrick, some will go to Cleverly and Tugendhat, almost zero will go to Badenoch, Braverman or Patel. Sunak of course won most Tory MPs last time
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,983
    Whom would I prefer to win the Tory contest?

    Someone unelectable who will hand the Lib Dems second place in 2029, but not dangerous or corrosive to national unity.

    Someone right wing enough to put off floating voters but not right wing enough to effect a pact with Farage.

    Hmm…might Patel fit the bill?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,031
    MattW said:

    JD Vance: The USA is run by childless cat ladies.

    Er ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG7m_QQEkHQ

    JD Vance is full of shit, and always has been
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    Cicero said:

    I think it says a great deal for the paucity of Tory talent that the list of leadership candidates is so weak.

    Braverman is aggressive and has a tin ear, not only for the opinions of the nation, but even her own colleagues. Patel has all of the above, but is also seen as personally difficult to work with. Kemi Badenoch is a lightweight. Tugendhat, despite being a Brexiteer, is what passes for a moderate in the current Conservative Party, but his judgement has been questioned on several occasions.

    It is hard to believe that any of these could bring the Tories back in one Parliament, or even two or three.

    Tugendhat was not a Brexiteer, he backed Remain and is the only Remainer amongst the Tory leadership contenders
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited July 17
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. HYUFD, disagree 100%. The 2019 election vote was more anti-Corbyn than pro-Johnson.

    Hunt would've been inferior at campaigning, but infinitely better at governing.

    Any Conservative would have beaten Corbyn, in 2019. Hunt would have won.
    He wouldn't anymore than May managed to win a majority against Corbyn in 2017
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,456
    algarkirk said:

    ‘Dreadful’ voting reforms could cost Scotland ten MPs

    Automatic voter registration could lead to loss of constituencies, says Conservative MP Andrew Bowie


    Scotland could lose almost 20 per cent of its MPs under plans to add millions more people across the UK to the electoral roll for future elections.

    Automatic registration (AVR) already exists in several European countries and is being proposed by Sir Keir Starmer’s Labour government as a way of extending the franchise.

    But Andrew Bowie, the Conservative MP, has warned that the measures, that are expected to be revaled as part of a Democracy Bill within the King’s Speech on Wednesday, could lead to loss of about ten Scottish constituencies with more seats based within English cities.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/dreadful-voting-reforms-could-cost-scotland-ten-mps-kzqqh9n65

    I still don't see how automatic voter registration works with a mobile population and no way of finding out which individuals live in a constituency
    What is your concern though Richard, that the numbers of electors in a particular constituency are over-estimated, or that voters get registered in two constituencies?

    Neither is insurmountable. Making it easier for people to vote has to be a good thing.
    It is just basically impractical. I actually think it would be a great idea if you could find a way to do it but I don't see how you do that when the only record we have of where people live is a census every 10 years. Are we going to force people to register with the local authorities every time they move residence? I which case how much different is that to the electoral roll just with added compulsion which leads to huge numbers of court cases (there are lots of people who actively refuse to register for ideological reasons).

    We are currently not even able to get a half way decenet estimate of how menay people are in each local council area for funding purposes. How on earth do you take that to the next level and identify every named individual in a constituency? (Which of course won't even match the council areas.)
    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/changing-electoral-law/a-modern-electoral-register/modernising-electoral-registration-feasibility-studies

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/electoral-registration-research/accuracy-and-completeness-electoral-registers/2023-report-electoral-registers-uk

    Combine the data from HMRC, DVLA and DWP and you'd get >95% accuracy.
    Apart from those hiding because they have no right to be in the UK there are very few adults who don't appear somewhere on those data bases - many of the less visible are recipients of benefits for example. To which you can add the NHS.

    (For example, the only person I know not registered with a doctor gets a state pension, pays income tax and council tax. Living off grid is quite hard).
    The problem is that there's no real requirement to inform the HMRC or NHS every time you change address. HMPO don't need to know your address at all. Perhaps there the DWP are better, but that would only cover people who are actively receiving benefits.

    To get reasonable coverage you really need to involve the credit reference agencies, but even they aren't set up to provide "one and only one" canonical address for each person they know about - it's usual for people to be linked to every address they've been associated with for the past decade or more.

    The people you would benefit most from automatic registration are almost certainly going to be the hardest to find. Getting to more than about 80% of them will take serious effort and money.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,031
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The fascinating aspect of this race to become Tory leader isn't just how they position themselves vs Farage, its how they position themselves against Trump.

    Former disgraced leaders are disgracing themselves more by offering fealty to Trump. Farage the same. Braverman moves in those circles.

    Will Patel, Cleverley etc have to go and kiss the ring to be contenders, or will they reject the Trump madness as not being relevant?

    What is the mood of the Tory membership towards Trump?

    Reform are pro Trump, the Sunak Tory party largely isn't. It would have preferred Haley as GOP nominee

    Haley has now prostrated - and humiliated- herself for the Orange Putin Plant.

    As she has to to have a shot in 2028 if Trump and Vance lose. However she also made clear she still doesn't always agree with Trump and got a few boos from the hall.

    DeSantis by contrast was loudly cheered
    And has no real political future as far as the presidency is concerned.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,037
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ‘Dreadful’ voting reforms could cost Scotland ten MPs

    Automatic voter registration could lead to loss of constituencies, says Conservative MP Andrew Bowie


    Scotland could lose almost 20 per cent of its MPs under plans to add millions more people across the UK to the electoral roll for future elections.

    Automatic registration (AVR) already exists in several European countries and is being proposed by Sir Keir Starmer’s Labour government as a way of extending the franchise.

    But Andrew Bowie, the Conservative MP, has warned that the measures, that are expected to be revaled as part of a Democracy Bill within the King’s Speech on Wednesday, could lead to loss of about ten Scottish constituencies with more seats based within English cities.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/dreadful-voting-reforms-could-cost-scotland-ten-mps-kzqqh9n65

    Why (apart from the Scottish pov) is that 'dreadful' ?
    It may end up double counting voters and add non existent voters to the electoral roll plus in the big cities people are more transient.
    Sub optimal isn't the same as 'dreadful'.
    What's the estimate for the numbers of over counted and non existent voters ?

    And has anyone actually seen the detail of the proposed legislation ?
    Last year an Electoral Commission report detailed how up to 8 million people across the UK are not correctly registered and are at risk of missing out on their right to participate in elections.
    So we're currently undercounting ?

    I'm not clear
    - what's meant by 'not correctly registered
    - whether there is likely to be significant over counting as a result of this legislation
    - whether there is likely to be a significant number of 'non existent' voters as a result of this legislation
    - whether the legislation contains additional proposals to clean up the electoral roll...

    In any event, I'm not going to get wound up and call it 'dreadful' until I've seen it.
    A lot of voters are registered in constituency A but move to constituency B but don’t inform the authorities, this proposal will register them at both and have consequences in seat numbers as Andrew Bowie has mentioned.

    That’s where a lot of that eight million are.
    Surely just refresh the AVR data every year?

    Anyway there can be no argument about this, it was in Labour's manifesto and they've just won a landslide:

    "To encourage participation in our democracy, Labour will improve voter registration..."
    This won’t improve voter registration.

    Also can you see the issues of refreshing/not refreshing the AVR data in an election.

    At best you’ll be two years out.
    It's reasonable to do the best you can at voter registration. This is totally different from the (horrible) idea of compulsory voting.

    BTW the one thing almost everyone does when moving is register with a doctor - even young people and students do this.
    Lots of people are not registered with doctors. Young adults often do not need to be (until they do). Those at the margins owing to drugs or mental health issues can find it hard to find a practice that is not "full up".
    Usually they are nominally at least on the register somewhere, usually at a former address.
    Inevitable I’d have thought. Everyone will have a GP at birth, so if you do literally nothing, you’ll keep that one won’t you?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited July 17

    Mr. HYUFD, disagree 100%. The 2019 election vote was more anti-Corbyn than pro-Johnson.

    Hunt would've been inferior at campaigning, but infinitely better at governing.

    As I said, the redwall seats would never have voted for Remainer Hunt anymore than they did for Remainer May.

    They only voted for Boris as they trusted him to get Brexit done
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    I think it says a great deal for the paucity of Tory talent that the list of leadership candidates is so weak.

    Braverman is aggressive and has a tin ear, not only for the opinions of the nation, but even her own colleagues. Patel has all of the above, but is also seen as personally difficult to work with. Kemi Badenoch is a lightweight. Tugendhat, despite being a Brexiteer, is what passes for a moderate in the current Conservative Party, but his judgement has been questioned on several occasions.

    It is hard to believe that any of these could bring the Tories back in one Parliament, or even two or three.

    Tugendhat was not a Brexiteer, he backed Remain and is the only Remainer amongst the Tory leadership contenders
    Also a French citizen and the tories are not going to have that.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    I think the Tories should go for James Cleverly .

    That would be IMO the unity candidate .
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    You act as if everyone is equally deserving of voting - a great deal of moves to increase turnout result in a lower quality of voter.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,037
    Sean_F said:

    FPT Vance makes Trump look rational and sane, by comparison. I think Russia is past the point where it can conquer Ukraine, but if the USA effectively withdraws from NATO, then Starmer, like other European leaders, will have to ramp up military spending.

    In some ways it will be good for us to lose our sugar daddy. Painful, but ultimately healthy.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,037
    Chameleon said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    You act as if everyone is equally deserving of voting - a great deal of moves to increase turnout result in a lower quality of voter.
    I can get behind any proposal that means only I get a vote.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513

    ‘Dreadful’ voting reforms could cost Scotland ten MPs

    Automatic voter registration could lead to loss of constituencies, says Conservative MP Andrew Bowie


    Scotland could lose almost 20 per cent of its MPs under plans to add millions more people across the UK to the electoral roll for future elections.

    Automatic registration (AVR) already exists in several European countries and is being proposed by Sir Keir Starmer’s Labour government as a way of extending the franchise.

    But Andrew Bowie, the Conservative MP, has warned that the measures, that are expected to be revaled as part of a Democracy Bill within the King’s Speech on Wednesday, could lead to loss of about ten Scottish constituencies with more seats based within English cities.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/dreadful-voting-reforms-could-cost-scotland-ten-mps-kzqqh9n65

    I still don't see how automatic voter registration works with a mobile population and no way of finding out which individuals live in a constituency
    What is your concern though Richard, that the numbers of electors in a particular constituency are over-estimated, or that voters get registered in two constituencies?

    Neither is insurmountable. Making it easier for people to vote has to be a good thing.
    Not if it makes elections less representative, or further reduces confidence in the electoral process.

    I was against the ID card imposition. It was a bad idea. I am *really* against this move, and it is a far worse idea. And it is also really open to potential misuse.
    Would a polling card being sent to where some-one used to live be a breach of GDPR (or UK equivalent) data protection law?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,343
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. HYUFD, disagree 100%. The 2019 election vote was more anti-Corbyn than pro-Johnson.

    Hunt would've been inferior at campaigning, but infinitely better at governing.

    Any Conservative would have beaten Corbyn, in 2019. Hunt would have won.
    He wouldn't anymore than May managed to win a majority against Corbyn in 2017
    Corbyn was way more unpopular in 2019. And, no Conservative leader was going to fight the kind of election campaign that May fought.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,031
    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    The point about over and underrepresentation of particular regions in Parliament as a result of inaccurate numbers is a fair one, though.

    Having said that, FPTP is inherently far more unfair as far as representation is concerned, anyway.
    And the people attacking this bill overlap considerably with those who defend FPTP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    AlsoLei said:

    HYUFD said:

    Badenoch and Braverman lacked enough support last time amongst Tory MPs to make the final two, Braverman even trailed Tugendhat. Patel probably also trails with MPs.

    Tugendhat will also benefit from the fact the Tory parliamentary party is much more southern than in 2019. He also likely wins most Scottish Tory MPs.

    Jenrick is the only contender who openly backed Sunak v Truss so likely gets much of Sunak's MP support with the rest mainly going to Tugendhat. So I expect a Tugendhat and Jenrick final two most likely with Jenrick narrowly winning the membership.

    Jenrick also looks most like the Hague or Ed Miliband of this leadership contest to take over the party in opposition having lost power

    If Barclay and Cleverly were also throw their hats in the ring, might that not block Tugendhat's path to the final two? (I'm guessing that all three would be going for the moderate section of the party)

    It's beginning to look like there'll be a large field standing for the first round, so there might be some unexpected results given the turnover of MPs at the GE.
    Maybe but the right is also split between Patel, Badenoch and Braverman. Jenrick i the middle, Barclay unlikely to stand it seems
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    When Trump dumps Ukraine and NATO and Russia is on the border to Poland dictating terms on us all, Farage's Putin support is going to come back and haunt him real bad..... The british sense of betrayal by Trump will be palpable in the electorate. Trump and MAGA will do what is good for Trump and MAGA - they have zero sense of loyalty or committment to old friends.... Vance has already taken verbal pot shots at the UK. Trump egged on brexit and as soon as we were out he shook us down. The expresserati are rooting for the wrong crowd altogether and in the long run it will destroy their political project.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. B, well, the last Labour Government brought in devolution to the parts of the UK that typically vote Labour (Wales and Scotland) and not to England. And the current one wants to increase constituency in parts (inner cities) that tend to vote for them. Fair enough to call this out, I think.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    biggles said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT Vance makes Trump look rational and sane, by comparison. I think Russia is past the point where it can conquer Ukraine, but if the USA effectively withdraws from NATO, then Starmer, like other European leaders, will have to ramp up military spending.

    In some ways it will be good for us to lose our sugar daddy. Painful, but ultimately healthy.
    It is good for rejoiners for sure... although sadly so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. HYUFD, disagree 100%. The 2019 election vote was more anti-Corbyn than pro-Johnson.

    Hunt would've been inferior at campaigning, but infinitely better at governing.

    Any Conservative would have beaten Corbyn, in 2019. Hunt would have won.
    He wouldn't anymore than May managed to win a majority against Corbyn in 2017
    Corbyn was way more unpopular in 2019. And, no Conservative leader was going to fight the kind of election campaign that May fought.
    A bit but Leavers in the redwall would have gone Brexit Party not for Hunt's Tories, the only Conservative they were going to vote for was Boris
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    biggles said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT Vance makes Trump look rational and sane, by comparison. I think Russia is past the point where it can conquer Ukraine, but if the USA effectively withdraws from NATO, then Starmer, like other European leaders, will have to ramp up military spending.

    In some ways it will be good for us to lose our sugar daddy. Painful, but ultimately healthy.
    It'd be better for the US, not resentfully defending deadbeat weaklings, and better for Europe, actually having strategic autonomy and not having to check with the Pentagon before changing a light bulb.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    I think it says a great deal for the paucity of Tory talent that the list of leadership candidates is so weak.

    Braverman is aggressive and has a tin ear, not only for the opinions of the nation, but even her own colleagues. Patel has all of the above, but is also seen as personally difficult to work with. Kemi Badenoch is a lightweight. Tugendhat, despite being a Brexiteer, is what passes for a moderate in the current Conservative Party, but his judgement has been questioned on several occasions.

    It is hard to believe that any of these could bring the Tories back in one Parliament, or even two or three.

    Tugendhat was not a Brexiteer, he backed Remain and is the only Remainer amongst the Tory leadership contenders
    Also a French citizen and the tories are not going to have that.
    Ironic thing about the "patriotic" tories.... their membership, which votes for the leader, it open to everybody globally....that means no matter your passport, you can be a member of the party and chose our PM for us.... that isn't right man.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    When Trump dumps Ukraine and NATO and Russia is on the border to Poland dictating terms on us all, Farage's Putin support is going to come back and haunt him real bad..... The british sense of betrayal by Trump will be palpable in the electorate. Trump and MAGA will do what is good for Trump and MAGA - they have zero sense of loyalty or committment to old friends.... Vance has already taken verbal pot shots at the UK. Trump egged on brexit and as soon as we were out he shook us down. The expresserati are rooting for the wrong crowd altogether and in the long run it will destroy their political project.

    To be brutally honest most British voters don't care that much about Ukraine either, if Trump wins they don't like him much but only liberal internationalists are really interested in Ukraine. A peace deal Trump negotiated might even reduce inflation and cost of living but it would not be good for western security if Putin largely got his way
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    I love the way that Tories crow about their leadership diversity. As if that wasn’t a natural consequence of changing the leader every 5 minutes.

    The female leader Labour should have had was obviously Yvette Cooper, but she blew it by having literally nothing to say. I’d make a very strong prediction that the next Labour leader will be female.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615

    Leadership approval polling

    11–12 Jul 2024 We Think 2,005 Pos: 38% Neg: 15% Net:+23

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Before the GE Starmer was hovering around minus 3-5% net approval .... that is some bounce. I have to say the labour government have come off to a dream start. Next big hurdle will be the Trump presidency I guess.... I have a feeling that will be craycray on so many levels.

    Starmer has often worked effectively with people he disagrees with. He will be fine with Trump, but I suspect will sup with a long spoon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,603

    I love the way that Tories crow about their leadership diversity. As if that wasn’t a natural consequence of changing the leader every 5 minutes.

    The female leader Labour should have had was obviously Yvette Cooper, but she blew it by having literally nothing to say. I’d make a very strong prediction that the next Labour leader will be female.

    Since Thatcher became Tory leader the Tories have had ten leaders, in that same time Labour have had erm, ten leaders.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    HYUFD said:

    When Trump dumps Ukraine and NATO and Russia is on the border to Poland dictating terms on us all, Farage's Putin support is going to come back and haunt him real bad..... The british sense of betrayal by Trump will be palpable in the electorate. Trump and MAGA will do what is good for Trump and MAGA - they have zero sense of loyalty or committment to old friends.... Vance has already taken verbal pot shots at the UK. Trump egged on brexit and as soon as we were out he shook us down. The expresserati are rooting for the wrong crowd altogether and in the long run it will destroy their political project.

    To be brutally honest most British voters don't care that much about Ukraine either, if Trump wins they don't like him much but only liberal internationalists are really interested in Ukraine. A peace deal Trump negotiated might even reduce inflation and cost of living but it would not be good for western security if Putin largely got his way
    They will care if Russia becomes a regional hegemon in Europe....
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651

    Mr. B, well, the last Labour Government brought in devolution to the parts of the UK that typically vote Labour (Wales and Scotland) and not to England. And the current one wants to increase constituency in parts (inner cities) that tend to vote for them. Fair enough to call this out, I think.

    They offered it to the North East of England which voted Labour, but Dom ran one of his fear and greed referendum campaigns, they voted No and that was it for England.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,603
    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    The point about over and underrepresentation of particular regions in Parliament as a result of inaccurate numbers is a fair one, though.

    Having said that, FPTP is inherently far more unfair as far as representation is concerned, anyway.
    And the people attacking this bill overlap considerably with those who defend FPTP.
    Fake news, I never defend FTTP and I think this policy will be a disaster.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414
    Chameleon said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    You act as if everyone is equally deserving of voting - a great deal of moves to increase turnout result in a lower quality of voter.
    What do you mean ‘quality of voter’?
    All are (supposed to be) equal in the eyes of the law or at the ballot box.

    Anyway, how do the Aussies manage it?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,037
    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    The point about over and underrepresentation of particular regions in Parliament as a result of inaccurate numbers is a fair one, though.

    Having said that, FPTP is inherently far more unfair as far as representation is concerned, anyway.
    And the people attacking this bill overlap considerably with those who defend FPTP.
    I do wonder what the unintended consequences would be in places with holiday homes, too. As with pretty much every other expansion of the franchise in history, a Tory gain?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414

    When Trump dumps Ukraine and NATO and Russia is on the border to Poland dictating terms on us all, Farage's Putin support is going to come back and haunt him real bad..... The british sense of betrayal by Trump will be palpable in the electorate. Trump and MAGA will do what is good for Trump and MAGA - they have zero sense of loyalty or committment to old friends.... Vance has already taken verbal pot shots at the UK. Trump egged on brexit and as soon as we were out he shook us down. The expresserati are rooting for the wrong crowd altogether and in the long run it will destroy their political project.

    There’s always a silver lining somewhere!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    nico679 said:

    I think the Tories should go for James Cleverly .

    That would be IMO the unity candidate .

    Aiui James Cleverly has not yet decided to stand.
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 424
    MattW said:

    Fairly stark piece from the BBC on prominent problems. For me the starkest one is Local Gov core funding still down 20% in real terms since 2010.

    Five big problems the Starmer government has to fix

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1e5pw1qpx8o

    Well, indeed. North Yorkshire Council is persisting with its plan to withdraw school buses from pupils for whom it is not a statutory entitlement. They say it will save money but not with any certainty, many families will simply change their choice of school to one where there is an entitlement. A major impact on schools that will lose pupils for no guaranteed saving to the Council.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651

    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    The point about over and underrepresentation of particular regions in Parliament as a result of inaccurate numbers is a fair one, though.

    Having said that, FPTP is inherently far more unfair as far as representation is concerned, anyway.
    And the people attacking this bill overlap considerably with those who defend FPTP.
    Fake news, I never defend FTTP and I think this policy will be a disaster.
    You just voted to reelect a government that was increasing FPTP at the expense of fantastic and threadworthy systems like AV.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162
    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,603
    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414
    edited July 17
    To be fair, one Labour leader died in office.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    nico679 said:

    I think the Tories should go for James Cleverly .

    That would be IMO the unity candidate .

    Aiui James Cleverly has not yet decided to stand.
    Perhaps he swigged from the wrong glass and hasn't woken up yet.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    Don't blame me, I only stay at Travelodges and Premier Inns.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    I love the way that Tories crow about their leadership diversity. As if that wasn’t a natural consequence of changing the leader every 5 minutes.

    The female leader Labour should have had was obviously Yvette Cooper, but she blew it by having literally nothing to say. I’d make a very strong prediction that the next Labour leader will be female.

    Since Thatcher became Tory leader the Tories have had ten leaders, in that same time Labour have had erm, ten leaders.
    It’s funny how, after the Tories trouncing Labour’s record on producing diverse leaders and senior cabinet members, diversity isn’t that important anymore - it’s character that counts, or that they’ve only got diversity by accident as Monksfield’s post suggests, or they aren’t really diverse because they are Tories.

    Maybe that’s why Labour didn’t try and make some sort of big thing about Rachel Reeves being the first female Chancellor of the Exchequer and symbolically having the office urinal boarded up.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,603
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    Sorry, I am one these gits who takes city breaks. The joys of a long distance relationship.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,116
    edited July 17
    Telegraph spinning like a top.

    Another "stealth tax raid". This one is because, interest rates having gone up, more people will exceed the tax free allowance for savings because they have more income.

    https://archive.ph/Xu74e

    Are the Colonel Shufflebottoms in Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh really going to fall for this?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,812
    UK politics is in that rather dull post election phase where the results have been picked over, the new government is settling in and we wait to see what comes next.

    I must admit to not being particularly excited by it at the moment. The GE was crazy entertaining. We will get a bit of oomph with the Tory leadership election but while we wait for that to kick off in earnest there’s very little to say that hasn’t been said already.

    My attention is much more focussed on the US side of things at the moment.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,575
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    More likely to be all the events taking place over the summer. If we had had no tennis, no F1, and no concerts, then hotel demand would be lower.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/14/taylor-swift-eras-tour-pressure-uk-inflation-claim/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. EPG, Northeast is not and never has been a nation or country. England is the equivalent of Wales or Scotland, except when it comes to devolution.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    More likely to be all the events taking place over the summer. If we had had no tennis, no F1, and no concerts, then hotel demand would be lower.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/14/taylor-swift-eras-tour-pressure-uk-inflation-claim/
    The F1 and tennis are annual events so should level out. It's the Swifties isn't it ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Look chaps, we feel that we in the IDF haven't generated enough SS comparisons yet. Setting dogs on a lad with Down's Syndrome and leaving him to die should do the trick.

    'Gaza man with Down's syndrome attacked by IDF dog and left to die, mother tells BBC'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    edited July 17
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    More likely to be all the events taking place over the summer. If we had had no tennis, no F1, and no concerts, then hotel demand would be lower.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/14/taylor-swift-eras-tour-pressure-uk-inflation-claim/
    At the low end, block booking hotels for asylum seekers might also be a factor.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,575

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    More likely to be all the events taking place over the summer. If we had had no tennis, no F1, and no concerts, then hotel demand would be lower.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/14/taylor-swift-eras-tour-pressure-uk-inflation-claim/
    At the low end, block booking hotels for asylum seekers might also be a factor.
    It certainly has an effect on supply, and therefore on price, if there’s large numbers of hotel rooms taken out of the inventory for such purposes.

    Many areas can’t get the staff for minimum wage any more either, so hotel room (and restaurant) inflation is going to be running above many other sectors.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    More likely to be all the events taking place over the summer. If we had had no tennis, no F1, and no concerts, then hotel demand would be lower.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/14/taylor-swift-eras-tour-pressure-uk-inflation-claim/
    At the low end, block booking hotels for asylum seekers might also be a factor.
    Bit like when Labour sticks 5p more on fuel and then "rising fuel costs" get measured into inflation..
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. Ace, Northumbria (ancient kingdom) included parts of modern day Scotland and other parts not within the 'northeast' region, and there were no plans for Mercian, East Anglian, or Wessex votes/assemblies.

    England is the equivalent to Scotland or Wales, except it's seen as deserving to be sliced into pieces. There was no Gwynedd Assembly in Wales, or Highlands, Lowlands, and Islands Assemblies in Scotland.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    tbh I stopped listening to music decades ago, being largely tone deaf. I've literally no idea about Radiohead and Coldplay except on PB they are somehow related to pizza toppings.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,575
    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    More like the music charts are what’s dead.

    The whole music industry business model has come full circle, and bands now make their money from playing live rather than selling little shiny disks. Streaming services are now merely the showcase for ticket sales. It’s no longer just a handful of industry plants making all the money for the record labels, there’s more bands touring and the money is more spread out even as a few stadium artists make nine figures.

    All those concerts though, and venues never having been so busy, unfortunately leads to a shortage of hotel rooms ;)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    Blimey. The Paris Olympics starts a week today (because some events start before the opening ceremony).
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,782
    edited July 17

    Chameleon said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    You act as if everyone is equally deserving of voting - a great deal of moves to increase turnout result in a lower quality of voter.
    What do you mean ‘quality of voter’?
    All are (supposed to be) equal in the eyes of the law or at the ballot box.

    Anyway, how do the Aussies manage it?
    I know very little about the Australian system so looked up a couple of things. With compulsory voting they get around 95% turnout. I couldn't find out what you do if you don't want to vote (other than pay a fine). I assume there is a NOTA option or the usual drawing on the ballot paper that we have all seen at counts. Anyone else know?

    I think @Chameleon has a point. I think we have all thought at some point that certain people really shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a polling station, but that is such a dangerous road to go down and generally I am of the view that voting should be made as easy as possible. I don't like situations that you get in America where parties make it hard to vote in areas where they don't think they will have support by having polling distances a long away away and generating huge queues. But I guess there is always the argument that if voting is made too easy it encourages people to vote who really don't care. Not a thought process I have ever gone down, but an interesting one.

    Personally I like what we have by and large. I would get rid of the current id requirements (unless we introduce proper ids, which I don't want), but I would crackdown on postal voting for fraud reasons and I would move polling day to the weekend with polling on both Saturday and Sunday. I would NOT introduce internet voting (for fraud reasons and probably for the reasons @Chameleon says)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173
    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,707
    tlg86 said:

    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).

    If we're talking about banning French lyric the Marseillaise needs looking into

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,782

    Blimey. The Paris Olympics starts a week today (because some events start before the opening ceremony).

    When I cycled through Paris in June they were really going to town on it. Not a beggar in sight (well one who was being escorted away by 3 policemen). No litter, streets and building being washed, lots of stands being erected for street events, Eiffel tower sadly enclosed, and that looked permanent. Some rather impressive Olympic statues erected at the parliament.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,575

    Blimey. The Paris Olympics starts a week today (because some events start before the opening ceremony).

    Can’t wait, what a summer of sport we’re having this year.

    The athletics in particular, looks like being an event full of world records, after last year’s hyped but disappointing world championships.
    One young Ukranian lady has already jumped herself into the record books before the Olympics even started.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVWCn6bGj0A
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    I mostly lost interest in music in about 1998 or 1999. I can't tell the difference between a song from 2024, 2014 or 2004, whereas before 1997 you can almost identify what year a song was released just from the style and production of it, going back to the 1950s.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    More like the music charts are what’s dead.

    The whole music industry business model has come full circle, and bands now make their money from playing live rather than selling little shiny disks. Streaming services are now merely the showcase for ticket sales. It’s no longer just a handful of industry plants making all the money for the record labels, there’s more bands touring and the money is more spread out even as a few stadium artists make nine figures.

    All those concerts though, and venues never having been so busy, unfortunately leads to a shortage of hotel rooms ;)
    Bands might make even more money - live - as technology kills off recorded music. Bands are more fun to watch than endless solo stars emoting
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,603
    tlg86 said:

    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).

    Checks to see if Alexis Mac Allister was involved, if he wasn’t then six month bans are in order.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,866
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can people just stop going to fucking hotels for five minutes please ?

    Context is needed here.
    CPI factor increase, caused by people not cancelling their bookings to hotels when they hike prices up mahoosively. Which will cause the bedwetters at the BoE to not lower rates.#

    Hoorah Henrys taking trips to hotels is going to push my mortgage up !
    More likely to be all the events taking place over the summer. If we had had no tennis, no F1, and no concerts, then hotel demand would be lower.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/14/taylor-swift-eras-tour-pressure-uk-inflation-claim/
    At the low end, block booking hotels for asylum seekers might also be a factor.
    Bit like when Labour sticks 5p more on fuel and then "rising fuel costs" get measured into inflation..
    You really are a grumpy sod this morning.

    Labour haven't been in for two weeks and you're already moaning (as are quite a few on here).

    That's the thing - you ask the politically disengaged why they don't vote and apart from those who care as little about voting as they do about pizza toppings or music, the usual answer is "there's no one I want to vote for" or " no one has the right policies".

    Now, I take the view people are looking for a near perfect fit - a Party whose policies are a perfect match. It's an imperfect world - I'm a Lib Dem but there are aspects of LD policy with which I don't agree and aspects of Labour and indeed Conservative policy I support so it's the least imperfect fit. The political culture has evolved so that supporting a Party is like supporting a football team - all or nothing.

    The other problem, when you drill down into what the politically disengaged want, is a concoction of misconceptions about the State and Government and local councils operate which becomes an incoherent view which, if implemented, would lead to economic and social chaos. Cut taxes, increase public spending, stop all immigration at the same time. Reform basically offers this and they do well but it's nonsense - it's unaffordable and unworkable but it's what people want (or purport to want).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    Everyone goes out of their way to convince people to vote and despite that only 60-68% are interested.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    edited July 17
    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173

    tlg86 said:

    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).

    Checks to see if Alexis Mac Allister was involved, if he wasn’t then six month bans are in order.
    I believe "present but not involved" is the phrase.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,575
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    More like the music charts are what’s dead.

    The whole music industry business model has come full circle, and bands now make their money from playing live rather than selling little shiny disks. Streaming services are now merely the showcase for ticket sales. It’s no longer just a handful of industry plants making all the money for the record labels, there’s more bands touring and the money is more spread out even as a few stadium artists make nine figures.

    All those concerts though, and venues never having been so busy, unfortunately leads to a shortage of hotel rooms ;)
    Bands might make even more money - live - as technology kills off recorded music. Bands are more fun to watch than endless solo stars emoting
    Anecdotal evidence from friends is that, as the price of eating out has gone up so much, people are not going out every week but instead going out once or twice a month on a bigger night, to a live event rather than just dinner. There’s now so much live music, and comedy, and theatre, that there’s always something on worth seeing.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,638
    Leon said:

    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg

    I think the Turd Hotel has been surpassed here. Chapeau.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689

    Nigelb said:

    'Outing themselves' ?

    Is TSE saying that Priti is a pantomime dame ?

    Oh yes I am.
    Oh go on then:

    "Oh no you're not!"
    He's behind you...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060
    tlg86 said:

    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).

    It's been a while since I used the tag but... #PBFreeSpeech
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173
    viewcode said:

    tlg86 said:

    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).

    It's been a while since I used the tag but... #PBFreeSpeech
    Not quite sure what you're getting at. I've never defended anyone else making racist comments on the grounds of free speech.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    So on one hand the government is giving early release to thousands of criminals but on the other it will reverse the idiotic 2014 policy to give lesser sentencing to thefts with less than £200 value. Amateur hour.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Will be interesting to see where this goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/17/chelsea-disciplinary-action-enzo-fernandez-racist-chants-argentina

    Chelsea say they have “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández over his involvement in chants that included racist and homophobic slurs about members of the France team.

    Having seen the lyrics translated, I'd suggest he should be facing a lengthy ban (time rather than games).

    Checks to see if Alexis Mac Allister was involved, if he wasn’t then six month bans are in order.
    I believe "present but not involved" is the phrase.
    I prefer "didn't inhale" personally.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,809
    edited July 17
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg

    I think the Turd Hotel has been surpassed here. Chapeau.
    Disagree. It's not in the old town itself, or in Edinburgh, so fails to achieve that huge demerit of the Turd Hotel (in terms of what it does to the overall landscape, so far as I can see).

    Mind, if this new chrome hotel is next to the Roman theatre I will instantly change my mind.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg

    I think the Turd Hotel has been surpassed here. Chapeau.
    Disagree. It's not in Edinburgh, so fails to achieve that huge demerit of the Turd Hotel.

    Mind, if this new chrome hotel is next to the Roman theatre I will instantly change my mind.
    It’s about 3 blocks away. It’s close enough
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    Has the entire King's Speech been leaked?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Tho actually I think the Jobbie Building in Edinburgh is still considerably worse. Because it literally looks like poo and it ruins the skyline of one of the world’s most beautiful capital cities
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,031
    edited July 17

    Nigelb said:

    biggles said:

    Isn’t having constituencies based on the premise that everyone might and should vote, and that we should convince them to do so, just… the right thing to do?

    Anyone objecting based on which party the outcome may or may not advantage should be ignored.

    The point about over and underrepresentation of particular regions in Parliament as a result of inaccurate numbers is a fair one, though.

    Having said that, FPTP is inherently far more unfair as far as representation is concerned, anyway.
    And the people attacking this bill overlap considerably with those who defend FPTP.
    Fake news, I never defend FTTP and I think this policy will be a disaster.
    I said there was considerable overlap, not identity.
    And you don't yet know what the policy is, do you; is there a text of the bill yet ?

    If it's as flawed as you say, then fair enough.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Every architect in the world should be thrown in the Rhone
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Leon said:

    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg

    I love Arles except the arse hats who stand outside the restaurant made famous by Van Gogh trying to drag customers in.

    Loved walking along the Roman road with all the tombs and the museum is a brilliant collection of Roman antiquities.

    Been riding twice in the camargue on their beautiful horses which is why I went to Arles but wouldn't recommend in the summer as hot as hades, beelzebub’s own fly army are on you constantly and the salt from the marshes seems to coat you and slowly mummify you whilst still alive.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    MaxPB said:

    So on one hand the government is giving early release to thousands of criminals but on the other it will reverse the idiotic 2014 policy to give lesser sentencing to thefts with less than £200 value. Amateur hour.

    What alternative would you propose?

    Stuck between a rock and a hard place really. Theft needs to be taken seriously. There isn't enough capacity.

    Extra capacity has to be the long term solution but in the short term it needs dealing with.

    Nobody should be in prison for a victimless crime, but theft is not victimless.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,162
    edited July 17
    MaxPB said:

    So on one hand the government is giving early release to thousands of criminals but on the other it will reverse the idiotic 2014 policy to give lesser sentencing to thefts with less than £200 value. Amateur hour.

    On early release, I don't think Labour had much realistic choice. Capacity was needed yesterday.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited July 17
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    More like the music charts are what’s dead.

    The whole music industry business model has come full circle, and bands now make their money from playing live rather than selling little shiny disks. Streaming services are now merely the showcase for ticket sales. It’s no longer just a handful of industry plants making all the money for the record labels, there’s more bands touring and the money is more spread out even as a few stadium artists make nine figures.

    All those concerts though, and venues never having been so busy, unfortunately leads to a shortage of hotel rooms ;)
    Bands might make even more money - live - as technology kills off recorded music. Bands are more fun to watch than endless solo stars emoting
    Anecdotal evidence from friends is that, as the price of eating out has gone up so much, people are not going out every week but instead going out once or twice a month on a bigger night, to a live event rather than just dinner. There’s now so much live music, and comedy, and theatre, that there’s always something on worth seeing.
    My middle lad is a freelance cameraman/photographer and has spent the summer freelancing for various media companies at festivals and other events. He was working at Download helping a crew for Avenged Sevenfold, did backstage BTS for Sum 41 and the Offspring, then lots of corporate stuff for whoever he could during his downtime. He did the mini Avril Lavigne tour and one thing he heard time and again was them all complaining that they're "barely breaking even". He was also pissed off that no one wants to pay for anything- he got asked to do a lot of stuff for the smaller artists and they wanted to credit him on their socials rather than pay him. He did a few of those for bands he liked, but told one fairly famous band to go fuck themselves when they wanted his help, then got arsey when he baulked at doing a day's work for nowt!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,031
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg

    I think the Turd Hotel has been surpassed here. Chapeau.
    It's quite ... dazzling ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    edited July 17
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in Arles avec ma fille (eldest)

    Sitrep: beautiful beautiful city. Marred a tad by petty crime, some urban malaise, and truly hideous new tower. What the fuck were they thinking

    Why do towns do this? Even beautiful French towns? They want an iconic building. They hire an iconic architect (Frank Gehry). They end up with a massive tower right by the exquisite old town with a building that looks like a pile of crushed steel cars excreted by a constipated giant robot

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FR22-135_Tour-Luma_Arles-Frank-Gehry_Arles.jpg

    I love Arles except the arse hats who stand outside the restaurant made famous by Van Gogh trying to drag customers in.

    Loved walking along the Roman road with all the tombs and the museum is a brilliant collection of Roman antiquities.

    Been riding twice in the camargue on their beautiful horses which is why I went to Arles but wouldn't recommend in the summer as hot as hades, beelzebub’s own fly army are on you constantly and the salt from the marshes seems to coat you and slowly mummify you whilst still alive.
    My daughter loves Van Gogh so we’re gonna have a drink in that cafe. Needs must

    Any other recommends?

    I was thinking of doing the camargue next but if we can’t horse ride…. what else?

    Merci a vous!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    Leon said:

    Every architect in the world should be thrown in the Rhone

    Have you noticed the Prince of Wales has shut up about modern architecture and carbuncles since all his hair fell out?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    Leon said:

    Every architect in the world should be thrown in the Rhone

    You're just an old fart with a "music from kids today is shit" mentality.

    Whatever people want to build, let them build it. Yes the skyline will change, but that's how the skyline got there in the first place, evolving over time.

    Many great classic buildings were dismissed when they were built as monstrosities, but then became loved over time. While other past buildings never became loved and eventually were replaced.

    Who knows if today's developments are the future greats or future demolishments? Who cares? What actual difference to you does it make.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,575

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OT pop pickers. Not half. You probably knew this but I've only just heard this on The Rest is Entertainment. Bands are dead.

    In the first half of the 1980s, bands were at number one for 146 weeks. In the first half of the 1990s, for 141 weeks.

    In the 2020s, three weeks, and one of those was the Beatles.

    More like music is dead.
    More like the music charts are what’s dead.

    The whole music industry business model has come full circle, and bands now make their money from playing live rather than selling little shiny disks. Streaming services are now merely the showcase for ticket sales. It’s no longer just a handful of industry plants making all the money for the record labels, there’s more bands touring and the money is more spread out even as a few stadium artists make nine figures.

    All those concerts though, and venues never having been so busy, unfortunately leads to a shortage of hotel rooms ;)
    Bands might make even more money - live - as technology kills off recorded music. Bands are more fun to watch than endless solo stars emoting
    Anecdotal evidence from friends is that, as the price of eating out has gone up so much, people are not going out every week but instead going out once or twice a month on a bigger night, to a live event rather than just dinner. There’s now so much live music, and comedy, and theatre, that there’s always something on worth seeing.
    My middle lad is a freelance cameraman/photographer and has spent the summer freelancing for various media companies at festivals and. He was working at download for Avenged Sevenfold, did backstage BTS for Sum 41 and the Offspring, then lots of corporate stuff for whoever he could during his downtime. He did the mini Avril Lavigne tour and one thing he heard time and again was them all complaining that they're "barely breaking even". He was also pissed off that no one wants to pay for anything- he got asked to do a lot of stuff for the smaller artists and they wanted to credit him on their socials rather than pay him. He did a few of those for bands he liked, but told one fairly famous band to go fuck themselves when they wanted his help, then got arsey when he baulked at doing a day's work for nowt!
    Interesting. AIUI the cost of actually staging the larger concerts and festivals has gone up well above inflation, thanks to high demand and labour shortages (for what’s quite seasonal work that closed down completely for two years during the pandemic). Best of luck to your son, it sounds like he’s at least found a way to make money doing something he enjoys.
This discussion has been closed.