Wales – How to do Cynical Politics. – politicalbetting.com

System

Wales – How to do Cynical Politics. – politicalbetting.com

When the Welsh Assembly was approved in 1997 by a wafer-thin margin of 50.3% to 49.7%, it was for just 60 members elected by a silly iteration of the D’Hondt top up system.* This was because Wales wasn’t an important place and the Assembly wasn’t an important institution. Blair called it a ‘parish council’ and many parish councils felt slighted at the comparison.

Read the full story here

Dumbosaurus

First

TheScreamingEagles

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

Selebian

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

rcs1000

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

Nigelb

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

Andy_JS

FPT

SandyRentool said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

Another fascinating data point in that Wiki page. It implies British obesity is DECLINING

Now, it is easy to find data that flatly contradicts this, but anecdotally, I suspect this might be true. Brits seem a bit less fat to me. The young look a bit healthier. They don't drink as much, obvs. Less smoking

My impression is they have been becoming slightly less obese since Covid-19. Could be a wrong impression.

That's because with WFH the really obese people don't need to leave home any more. So you don't see them out and about.

Should've thought of that.

Nigelb

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

All of that is good.

MattW

Thanks for the nicely opinionated header.

This:

Now, with what they hope will be the Labour block vote secure, they can look forward to another 25 years of government.

Reminds me of what they said about the Pig-Dog-Hybrid Scottish system introduced to .. er .. keep Labour in power *.

* Allegedly.

mwadams

That was an excellent (and enjoyable) header. Thanks.

TimS

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

not_on_fire

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Computerised voting (with a paper trail) is the obvious solution to that

Sunil_Prasannan

A splendid read, thanks @ydoethur !

rcs1000

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

Rishi Sunak didn't last long either

Selebian

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Got back in the saddle...

TimS

Selebian said:

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Got back in the saddle...

She didn't go down with the ship. There is no white flag above her door.

DecrepiterJohnL

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

London just texted and said Boris claimed some sort of Turkish-American heritage. And the one after.

mwadams

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Multi member STV and "just taking a bit longer to count" still strikes me as the best option all round.

As someone who works in tech, I want computers and, more importantly, the kind of people who work in tech, nowhere near my vote.

Nigelb

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also quite brief and to the point.

The closed list system gives PR a bad name.

Sandpit

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Did she raise a white flag? Thank you.

Nigelb

Trump considering cutting back intel sharing with Europe, officials warn
European officials say they rely on U.S. intelligence to help fend off Russian aggression on their own soil.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/10/trump-considering-cutting-intel-sharing-europe-00167503

NickyBreakspear

not_on_fire said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Computerised voting (with a paper trail) is the obvious solution to that

I would prefer paper voting, but counting by scanning and computer calculation with an appropriate paper trail.

tlg86

Selebian said:

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Got back in the saddle...

I hope she doesn't make up policy on the hoof.

williamglenn

Nigelb said:

Trump considering cutting back intel sharing with Europe, officials warn
European officials say they rely on U.S. intelligence to help fend off Russian aggression on their own soil.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/10/trump-considering-cutting-intel-sharing-europe-00167503

He’s obviously working in tandem with Starmer to increase the value of the UK to the EU.

Carnyx

Sunil_Prasannan said:

A splendid read, thanks @ydoethur !

Hear hear.

TimS

Sandpit said:

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Did she raise a white flag? Thank you.

I got there first, sorry

Richard_Tyndall

Excellent and informative header. This was my learning moment for today. Many thanks.

Nigelb

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Richard_Tyndall

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I would still very much prefer AV as I don't like the larger constituency sizes with MM STV. I think it reduces the link bwteeen MP and Constituent too much.

mwadams

Richard_Tyndall said:

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I would still very much prefer AV as I don't like the larger constituency sizes with MM STV. I think it reduces the link bwteeen MP and Constituent too much.

I am fine with it if each member is allocated to a sub-region of the constituency, and recall petitions are available for individual members *in that sub area*. It means you can get shot of *your* member if everything goes bad.

Sunil_Prasannan

tlg86 said:

Selebian said:

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

Got back in the saddle...

I hope she doesn't make up policy on the hoof.

Strong and stable.

bondegezou

Good article!

OldKingCole

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Wonder why the chap didn’t drop the cases over the side and into the river?

rcs1000

Richard_Tyndall said:

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I would still very much prefer AV as I don't like the larger constituency sizes with MM STV. I think it reduces the link bwteeen MP and Constituent too much.

I'm not a massive fan of AV, because I think it can be very anti-proportional, and can result in unpopular opinions not getting any representation at all.

But I tend to agree regarding too large constituencies. I think a happy medium is probably four member constituencies. Smaller multimember constituencies also make the system a bit more FPTP like, and allow for both (a) parties to be severely punished (see Citizens in Spain), and (b) actual majorities to be possible.

bondegezou

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I agree with all of that. There are also open list PR systems that give voters meaningful choice among candidates within the same party.

EPG

I agree that STV is best. But to make it work in Wales rather than Scotland, shouldn't it be called S4C (apologies)

OldKingCole

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I would still very much prefer AV as I don't like the larger constituency sizes with MM STV. I think it reduces the link bwteeen MP and Constituent too much.

I'm not a massive fan of AV, because I think it can be very anti-proportional, and can result in unpopular opinions not getting any representation at all.

But I tend to agree regarding too large constituencies. I think a happy medium is probably four member constituencies. Smaller multimember constituencies also make the system a bit more FPTP like, and allow for both (a) parties to be severely punished (see Citizens in Spain), and (b) actual majorities to be possible.

I suggest that thinking about Travel to Work (or shop) areas is the way to go. That would give, in Essex, five or six four member constituencies.

SandyRentool

Am I the only fan of closed list PR on PB?

If you want to influence the party list, join the party!

bondegezou

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

pancakes

D'Hondt is a widely known seat allocation formula for list seats. But it's not accurate to say that New Zealand uses a "more sensible iteration" of d'Hondt - because it doesn't use d'Hondt.

What NZ uses to allocate seats is the Sainte-Laguë formula, which is superior to d'Hondt. Sainte-Laguë is used in Germany (federally), Norway and Sweden. D'Hondt is used in Belgium, Spain, Portugal and Finland.

The use or non-use of overhang seats is an independent property that can be combined with either one of the seat allocation formulas.

SandyRentool

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

TimS

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I would still very much prefer AV as I don't like the larger constituency sizes with MM STV. I think it reduces the link bwteeen MP and Constituent too much.

I'm not a massive fan of AV, because I think it can be very anti-proportional, and can result in unpopular opinions not getting any representation at all.

But I tend to agree regarding too large constituencies. I think a happy medium is probably four member constituencies. Smaller multimember constituencies also make the system a bit more FPTP like, and allow for both (a) parties to be severely punished (see Citizens in Spain), and (b) actual majorities to be possible.

4 member constituencies would certainly be absolutely fine size-wise around here. Pretty much the size of the borough of Lewisham and places I can get to within 20 minutes on a bike. I can see that for somewhere like the Northern Highlands or central Wales you might end with an absolutely vast area, but it would still be served by 4 MPs and they can still be allocated to a sub-zone.

The other thing I'd love us to have is foreign constituencies, like the French do. I'd be fascinated to know what the Brits in Spain, or Australia or the US are voting.

EScrymgeour

SandyRentool said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

That's why parties only put up 2 candidates for a 3 seat ward in Scotland. They have learned not to put up a full slate.

Carnyx

OldKingCole said:

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Wonder why the chap didn’t drop the cases over the side and into the river?

Afternoon, OKC!

My impression is that anyone acting oddly there gets spoken to asap, as part of the drive to prevent suicide. Even in the 1980s there were big signs with Samaritans phone numbers. Combine that with the high anti-suicide fencing*, over head height and curved inwards too, and I would think that's your explanation.

[edit] https://www.alamy.com/pedestrians-and-cars-on-the-clifton-suspension-bridge-spanning-avon-gorge-and-river-avon-bristol-uk-image240885397.html?imageid=E61A3511-5B59-4F31-8B0B-C0CCEF4B88AC&p=72163&pn=1&searchId=a134ac29c3fe4687ec32c710ad9cd6b6&searchtype=0

*definitely not an IKB original design element (in fact , given its posthumous construction, and later modifications, I would need to check how much of the design of the bridge is Brunel's apart from the towers and chain anchorages, and the chains recycled from his Hungerford Bridge in London).

rcs1000

SandyRentool said:

Am I the only fan of closed list PR on PB?

Yes.

tlg86

rcs1000 said:

SandyRentool said:

Am I the only fan of closed list PR on PB?

Yes.

No.

EScrymgeour

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

TimS

SandyRentool said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

Compared with the tactical gaming required under FPTP though, or the party secrecy involved in closed list PR, it's head and shoulders above the rest. It routinely delivers much more proportional results.

I'd like to have some multi-party representation here in SE London too. My MP is Labour. Her neighbours are all Labour. All around me for miles is Labour. The nearest Lib Dems are over in Richmond or Carshalton, the Tories are over the ridge in West Virginia / Bexley and Sidcup, and the nearest Green is way down the M23. Under STV we would certainly have at least one green here and quite possibly a Lib Dem.

More opportunities for popular independents too.

viewcode

FPT

MisterBedfordshire said:

Telegraph is interesting tonight....

"Government decision to approve new coal mine was unlawful, declares Labour Deputy PM Angela Rayner reverses support for Cumbria pit over environmental impact"

All together now: "more pits were closed under Labour than under the Conservatives"

rcs1000

SandyRentool said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

Ummm: isn't that only true if voters don't rank candidates properly.

If there are four Con candidates, and one LibDem, then the Con votes should consolidate towards the most popular of those candidates.

Sunil_Prasannan

EScrymgeour said:

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

Goooooood evening!

rcs1000

viewcode said:

FPT

MisterBedfordshire said:

Telegraph is interesting tonight....

"Government decision to approve new coal mine was unlawful, declares Labour Deputy PM Angela Rayner reverses support for Cumbria pit over environmental impact"

All together now: "more pits were closed under Labour than under the Conservatives"

Although that isn't necessarily anything to do with the Labour government; it might simply be that mines became exhausted (or utterly uneconomic) under Labour governments at a greater rate than under Conservative.

Carnyx

rcs1000 said:

viewcode said:

FPT

MisterBedfordshire said:

Telegraph is interesting tonight....

"Government decision to approve new coal mine was unlawful, declares Labour Deputy PM Angela Rayner reverses support for Cumbria pit over environmental impact"

All together now: "more pits were closed under Labour than under the Conservatives"

Although that isn't necessarily anything to do with the Labour government; it might simply be that mines became exhausted (or utterly uneconomic) under Labour governments at a greater rate than under Conservative.

Or indeed x small inefficient old mines got replaced by one modern superpit. Which is what tended to happen in Scotland, certainly in some cases, with associated mass movement across from west to east and new housing estates. But a simple count of mines would show ...

Edit: an analytical subtlety which Viewcode might particularly enjoy.

Andy_JS

EScrymgeour said:

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

Totally unacceptable when so many people applied for tickets and were turned away.

OldKingCole

Carnyx said:

OldKingCole said:

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Wonder why the chap didn’t drop the cases over the side and into the river?

Afternoon, OKC!

My impression is that anyone acting oddly there gets spoken to asap, as part of the drive to prevent suicide. Even in the 1980s there were big signs with Samaritans phone numbers. Combine that with the high anti-suicide fencing*, over head height and curved inwards too, and I would think that's your explanation.

[edit] https://www.alamy.com/pedestrians-and-cars-on-the-clifton-suspension-bridge-spanning-avon-gorge-and-river-avon-bristol-uk-image240885397.html?imageid=E61A3511-5B59-4F31-8B0B-C0CCEF4B88AC&p=72163&pn=1&searchId=a134ac29c3fe4687ec32c710ad9cd6b6&searchtype=0

*definitely not an IKB original design element (in fact , given its posthumous construction, and later modifications, I would need to check how much of the design of the bridge is Brunel's apart from the towers and chain anchorages, and the chains recycled from his Hungerford Bridge in London).

Thanks; it’s a long, long time since I visited the area.

viewcode

Carnyx said:

rcs1000 said:

viewcode said:

FPT

MisterBedfordshire said:

Telegraph is interesting tonight....

"Government decision to approve new coal mine was unlawful, declares Labour Deputy PM Angela Rayner reverses support for Cumbria pit over environmental impact"

All together now: "more pits were closed under Labour than under the Conservatives"

Although that isn't necessarily anything to do with the Labour government; it might simply be that mines became exhausted (or utterly uneconomic) under Labour governments at a greater rate than under Conservative.

Or indeed x small inefficient old mines got replaced by one modern superpit. Which is what tended to happen in Scotland, certainly in some cases, with associated mass movement across from west to east and new housing estates. But a simple count of mines would show ...

Edit: an analytical subtlety which Viewcode might particularly enjoy.

noneoftheabove

Andy_JS said:

EScrymgeour said:

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

Totally unacceptable when so many people applied for tickets and were turned away.

Would you prefer the single transferable ticket, the additional member ticket or the alternative ticket plus system?

Alphabet_Soup

Carnyx said:

OldKingCole said:

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Wonder why the chap didn’t drop the cases over the side and into the river?

Afternoon, OKC!

My impression is that anyone acting oddly there gets spoken to asap, as part of the drive to prevent suicide. Even in the 1980s there were big signs with Samaritans phone numbers. Combine that with the high anti-suicide fencing*, over head height and curved inwards too, and I would think that's your explanation.

[edit] https://www.alamy.com/pedestrians-and-cars-on-the-clifton-suspension-bridge-spanning-avon-gorge-and-river-avon-bristol-uk-image240885397.html?imageid=E61A3511-5B59-4F31-8B0B-C0CCEF4B88AC&p=72163&pn=1&searchId=a134ac29c3fe4687ec32c710ad9cd6b6&searchtype=0

*definitely not an IKB original design element (in fact , given its posthumous construction, and later modifications, I would need to check how much of the design of the bridge is Brunel's apart from the towers and chain anchorages, and the chains recycled from his Hungerford Bridge in London).

There used to be a small exhibition at the Somerset end (maybe there still is) showing entries to the original competition to design the bridge. Every sort of inappropriate architectural style was represented from neo-classical to Gothic Revival to mock-Tudor, none of which, one suspects, would have lasted as long as IKB's. One memorable entry was from a 16-year-old schoolboy: William Butterfield.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Butterfield

MisterBedfordshire

viewcode said:

FPT

MisterBedfordshire said:

Telegraph is interesting tonight....

"Government decision to approve new coal mine was unlawful, declares Labour Deputy PM Angela Rayner reverses support for Cumbria pit over environmental impact"

All together now: "more pits were closed under Labour than under the Conservatives"

Didn't expect to see that get dredged up from Yesterday.

Someone forgot to drop the thread in the Avon

williamglenn

EPG said:

I agree that STV is best. But to make it work in Wales rather than Scotland, shouldn't it be called S4C (apologies)

Make it a UK-wide system of Balanced Bloc Constituencies.

Sunil_Prasannan

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

OldKingCole said:

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Wonder why the chap didn’t drop the cases over the side and into the river?

Afternoon, OKC!

My impression is that anyone acting oddly there gets spoken to asap, as part of the drive to prevent suicide. Even in the 1980s there were big signs with Samaritans phone numbers. Combine that with the high anti-suicide fencing*, over head height and curved inwards too, and I would think that's your explanation.

[edit] https://www.alamy.com/pedestrians-and-cars-on-the-clifton-suspension-bridge-spanning-avon-gorge-and-river-avon-bristol-uk-image240885397.html?imageid=E61A3511-5B59-4F31-8B0B-C0CCEF4B88AC&p=72163&pn=1&searchId=a134ac29c3fe4687ec32c710ad9cd6b6&searchtype=0

*definitely not an IKB original design element (in fact , given its posthumous construction, and later modifications, I would need to check how much of the design of the bridge is Brunel's apart from the towers and chain anchorages, and the chains recycled from his Hungerford Bridge in London).

There used to be a small exhibition at the Somerset end (maybe there still is) showing entries to the original competition to design the bridge. Every sort of inappropriate architectural style was represented from neo-classical to Gothic Revival to mock-Tudor, none of which, one suspects, would have lasted as long as IKB's. One memorable entry was from a 16-year-old schoolboy: William Butterfield.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Butterfield

I went to the bridge (as well as Bristol itself) in 2019, the exhibition was still there inside the museum. Of course, it was 5 years ago!

Sunil_Prasannan

williamglenn said:

EPG said:

I agree that STV is best. But to make it work in Wales rather than Scotland, shouldn't it be called S4C (apologies)

Make it a UK-wide system of Balanced Bloc Constituencies.

Iterative Transferable Vote

MisterBedfordshire

noneoftheabove said:

Andy_JS said:

EScrymgeour said:

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

Totally unacceptable when so many people applied for tickets and were turned away.

Would you prefer the single transferable ticket, the additional member ticket or the alternative ticket plus system?

That sounds like obscure methods of single line Railway Signalling

williamglenn

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

It sounds like the opening episode of a new Scandi-noir thriller.

Alanbrooke

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

williamglenn

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

EPG said:

I agree that STV is best. But to make it work in Wales rather than Scotland, shouldn't it be called S4C (apologies)

Make it a UK-wide system of Balanced Bloc Constituencies.

Iterative Transferable Vote

I see you want to privatise the BBC and introduce commercial software.

HYUFD

STV may have been the best system for Welsh Tories but PR will still be their saviour in the Senedd. It will ensure they retain representation there despite being wiped out from the House of Commons

MisterBedfordshire

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

Never mind that. Is she the first Catholic black woman mayor or the first Protestant black woman mayor of the place* ?

*avoids the name issue.

SeaShantyIrish2

rcs1000 said:

SandyRentool said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

Ummm: isn't that only true if voters don't rank candidates properly.

If there are four Con candidates, and one LibDem, then the Con votes should consolidate towards the most popular of those candidates.

Under STV (or as Americans call it, RCV) here will always be a % of non-transferable ballots. So in many cases parties will indeed need to limit the number of candidates they field, lest they discover that such leakage bites them where it hurts.

UNLESS they can inculcate and count upon above-average party discipline from their base voters. Such as Fianna Fail managed back in their heyday.

This can lead to situations, where a party experiences a surge in support but fails to field enough candidates to take advantage of it; this happened for example to Irish Labour Party in 1992, when they scored their best-ever result.

(Fact that yours truly was a volunteer canvasser MAY have had something to do with that. OR perhaps NOT!)

Alphabet_Soup

noneoftheabove said:

Andy_JS said:

EScrymgeour said:

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

Totally unacceptable when so many people applied for tickets and were turned away.

Would you prefer the single transferable ticket, the additional member ticket or the alternative ticket plus system?

My idea of luxury would be to buy a large block of seats to sit in the middle while all the others remained empty.

Cicero

Richard_Tyndall said:

rcs1000 said:

On topic, multimember STV, where people can chose which Conservative/Labour/etc. candidate to represent them, is a form of PR I wholeheartedly support, unlike party lists which seem incredibly undemocratic.

It enables - for example - constituents to support more Brexit-friendly (or more Remain-friendly, depending on their point of view) candidates from within a party. It would also probably encourage the existence of independents.

However, it would also fundamentally rearrange British politics, and not necessarily to the advantage of any of the existing political parties.

I would still very much prefer AV as I don't like the larger constituency sizes with MM STV. I think it reduces the link between MP and Constituent too much.

I have never understood this view. No ones says they come from Wolverhampton South West or Liverpool Scotland Road, they say they are from Wolverhampton or from Liverpool. The boundaries are fiddly and often illogical in FPTP, and you need to be a political anorak, or indeed the candidate to know precisely where they are. So I can not see why being one of four or five MPs for a county, or part thereof for one of the larger counties, or a city or part thereof for a larger city, makes any real difference at all. If you back into history there were usually two knights of the shire for each county, so there is an historical precedent.

HYUFD

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Sunil_Prasannan

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

There's more! "Micky Murray describes himself as the first “openly gay” lord mayor of Belfast"

malcolmg

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

A useless donkey is a useless donkey no matter what colour they are. You cannot polish turds.

Alanbrooke

MisterBedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

Never mind that. Is she the first Catholic black woman mayor or the first Protestant black woman mayor of the place* ?

*avoids the name issue.

Catholic I think. But on the other side of NI there will be African Orangemen parading in Belfast as it's the 12th July.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34088527

MarqueeMark

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

MarqueeMark

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

It sounds like the opening episode of a new Scandi-noir thriller.

...filmed in the drizzle of Brizzle.

pancakes

rcs1000 said:

SandyRentool said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

Ummm: isn't that only true if voters don't rank candidates properly.

If there are four Con candidates, and one LibDem, then the Con votes should consolidate towards the most popular of those candidates.

Perhaps this is why, in Australian Senate elections, it was formerly mandatory to use every preference, numbering every candidate on the ballot. This became problematic because the total number of candidates was too large and voters didn't always have a preferred between all of them anyway. So, now you only have to number a certain minimum number, and you can opt to vote for a party (so that all your preferences are allocated among individuals in the way that the party has defined) instead of for individual candidates - not sure if this is in the spirit of true STV but it is allowed now over there.

viewcode

@ydoethur , I enjoyed your article, thank you.

Malmesbury

Alanbrooke said:

MisterBedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

Never mind that. Is she the first Catholic black woman mayor or the first Protestant black woman mayor of the place* ?

*avoids the name issue.

Catholic I think. But on the other side of NI there will be African Orangemen parading in Belfast as it's the 12th July.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34088527

Bigger question - is she a Catholic Catholic or a Protestant Catholic?

Carnyx

Alphabet_Soup said:

Carnyx said:

OldKingCole said:

Nigelb said:

"Remains of two men were in suitcases dumped at bridge, say police."

Wonder why the chap didn’t drop the cases over the side and into the river?

Afternoon, OKC!

My impression is that anyone acting oddly there gets spoken to asap, as part of the drive to prevent suicide. Even in the 1980s there were big signs with Samaritans phone numbers. Combine that with the high anti-suicide fencing*, over head height and curved inwards too, and I would think that's your explanation.

[edit] https://www.alamy.com/pedestrians-and-cars-on-the-clifton-suspension-bridge-spanning-avon-gorge-and-river-avon-bristol-uk-image240885397.html?imageid=E61A3511-5B59-4F31-8B0B-C0CCEF4B88AC&p=72163&pn=1&searchId=a134ac29c3fe4687ec32c710ad9cd6b6&searchtype=0

*definitely not an IKB original design element (in fact , given its posthumous construction, and later modifications, I would need to check how much of the design of the bridge is Brunel's apart from the towers and chain anchorages, and the chains recycled from his Hungerford Bridge in London).

There used to be a small exhibition at the Somerset end (maybe there still is) showing entries to the original competition to design the bridge. Every sort of inappropriate architectural style was represented from neo-classical to Gothic Revival to mock-Tudor, none of which, one suspects, would have lasted as long as IKB's. One memorable entry was from a 16-year-old schoolboy: William Butterfield.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Butterfield

Of course the bridge itself is Egyptian - certainly IKB's bits. Very trendy at the time. Just look at Cromarty Lighthouse towards the other end of the UK - keepers' houses with doors like dipylon gates (?) and chimneys like pylons.

https://canmore.org.uk/collection/398665
https://canmore.org.uk/collection/570150

viewcode

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

I love the fact that her surname is hyphenated.

Alanbrooke

MarqueeMark said:

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

Daft

you Tories will be fighting each other for the next 10 years instead of Labour. Or in your case surrendering to the LDs.

Reform have 5 seats and are second in 98 seats. Of that reform are second to Labour in 91 seats, seats the Tories havent a hope in hell of winning. Cut a pact to let them have a free ride in 100 seats and they stand down in the others.

Avoid a pointless conflict and take the war to Starmer. Farage will be trying to secure Labour votes while you worry about the Blue wall and the LDs.

numbertwelve

Jeez, Biden is still clinging on for dear life I see

SeaShantyIrish2

MisterBedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

Never mind that. Is she the first Catholic black woman mayor or the first Protestant black woman mayor of the place* ?

*avoids the name issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilian_Seenoi-Barr

MarqueeMark

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

Daft

you Tories will be fighting each other for the next 10 years instead of Labour. Or in your case surrendering to the LDs.

Reform have 5 seats and are second in 98 seats. Of that reform are second to Labour in 91 seats, seats the Tories havent a hope in hell of winning. Cut a pact to let them have a free ride in 100 seats and they stand down in the others.

Avoid a pointless conflict and take the war to Starmer. Farage will be trying to secure Labour votes while you worry about the Blue wall and the LDs.

You won't fit three of those egos in the same room. They'll spontaneously combust years before the next election.

Casino_Royale

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

ITV racing doing a cracking job.

🗣️ "Test and Trace was an expensive disaster in most people's eyes... How do you reassure people you will make the right decisions?"

Ed Chamberlin speaks with Dido Harding, Senior Steward at the Jockey Club.
https://x.com/itvracing/status/1811768410084089998

Didn't get a real answer, of course.

So glad that Dido has landed on her feet.

It's not so bad.

Luckyguy1983

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

Daft

you Tories will be fighting each other for the next 10 years instead of Labour. Or in your case surrendering to the LDs.

Reform have 5 seats and are second in 98 seats. Of that reform are second to Labour in 91 seats, seats the Tories havent a hope in hell of winning. Cut a pact to let them have a free ride in 100 seats and they stand down in the others.

Avoid a pointless conflict and take the war to Starmer. Farage will be trying to secure Labour votes while you worry about the Blue wall and the LDs.

You obviously haven't got the memo that right wing people aren't welcome in the broad church.

HYUFD

numbertwelve said:

Jeez, Biden is still clinging on for dear life I see

New Marist College poll has Biden back ahead of Trump. Maybe some Americans like a gaffe prone president, makes them more endearing? Hence they also voted for George W Bush twice and Reagan twice (the latter also ageing and forgetful).

Biden 50% Trump 48%

Harris 50% Trump 49%
Whitmer 49% Trump 49%
Newsom 50% Trump 48%
https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/contest-for-president-still-up-for-grabs/

Luckyguy1983

viewcode said:

@ydoethur , I enjoyed your article, thank you.

Me too. It had a good length and I now feel better informed.

SeaShantyIrish2

viewcode said:

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

I love the fact that her surname is hyphenated.

Why? Ms Seenoi-Barr combined her given surname with that of her husband.

VERY common in the USA these days; is that something rich & rare on the other side of the Atlantic?

Alanbrooke

MarqueeMark said:

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

Daft

you Tories will be fighting each other for the next 10 years instead of Labour. Or in your case surrendering to the LDs.

Reform have 5 seats and are second in 98 seats. Of that reform are second to Labour in 91 seats, seats the Tories havent a hope in hell of winning. Cut a pact to let them have a free ride in 100 seats and they stand down in the others.

Avoid a pointless conflict and take the war to Starmer. Farage will be trying to secure Labour votes while you worry about the Blue wall and the LDs.

You won't fit three of those egos in the same room. They'll spontaneously combust years before the next election.

So you say but the Cons wont win the next election if theyre still there and fked up the last one because they couldnt cut a deal. You have loads of seats where they can reach the parts you cant reach but would rather sit moaning in opposition. If the Tories cant be bothered to get back in to power whats the point of them ?

MisterBedfordshire

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

MisterBedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

Never mind that. Is she the first Catholic black woman mayor or the first Protestant black woman mayor of the place* ?

*avoids the name issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilian_Seenoi-Barr

Dosen't say. (SDLP is mainly Catholic as the BBC never used to tire of pointing out but not exclusively).

Kenya on the other hand is mainly Protestant

Carnyx

MisterBedfordshire said:

noneoftheabove said:

Andy_JS said:

EScrymgeour said:

Packed Centre court for semi final no2. Not!

Totally unacceptable when so many people applied for tickets and were turned away.

Would you prefer the single transferable ticket, the additional member ticket or the alternative ticket plus system?

That sounds like obscure methods of single line Railway Signalling

And of course machines were invented and then trouble ensued when the operators sussed out how to bypass the machines.

MisterBedfordshire

OOF.

Elon Musk: "The European Commission offered 𝕏 an illegal secret deal: if we quietly censored speech without telling anyone, they would not fine us.

The other platforms accepted that deal.

𝕏 did not"

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1811783320839008381?t=3hj2mGLLj5JQ2oE8tgaHrQ&s=19

SeaShantyIrish2

SandyRentool said:

TimS said:

Nice header, by which I mean two things: interesting topic, and well written. @ydoethur has one of the site's most engaging prose styles.

I'm a long standing fan of STV. The only possible objection to it that I can see, and surely this is fixable, is the amount of time it takes to count the votes.

Also:

Nobody understands the whole "surplus votes" malarkey.

The number of seats a party wins can be influenced by how many candidates the put up. More candidates can result in fewer seats. Nothing proportional about that.

Don't understand the malarkey? Just ask any urchin in Dublin, they can explain it to you.

Luckyguy1983

MarqueeMark said:

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

Daft

you Tories will be fighting each other for the next 10 years instead of Labour. Or in your case surrendering to the LDs.

Reform have 5 seats and are second in 98 seats. Of that reform are second to Labour in 91 seats, seats the Tories havent a hope in hell of winning. Cut a pact to let them have a free ride in 100 seats and they stand down in the others.

Avoid a pointless conflict and take the war to Starmer. Farage will be trying to secure Labour votes while you worry about the Blue wall and the LDs.

You won't fit three of those egos in the same room. They'll spontaneously combust years before the next election.

Everyone bewails the possibility of the Tories going 'into their comfort zone' and becoming an unelectable party because they swerve right before seeing sense and embracing 'centrism' again, but what if their actual wilderness years aren't that - what if their unelectability is going to come from resentful centrist turds who insist that Farage and all his works be condemned to the last MP, and make the party into a corporatist ivory tower, Labour without the voters - the Lib Dems without the enthused base. Farage won't believe his luck.

Leon

France continues to disappoint

HYUFD

Luckyguy1983 said:

MarqueeMark said:

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

HYUFD said:

ConHome finds in their latest survey Tory members reject any proposal to merge with ReformUK. However many do want to try and get an electoral pact with Reform.

12% say the Tories should merge with Reform, 19% want Farage and his MPs to share the Tory whip, 35% want an electoral pact with Reform. 50% want none of the above
https://conservativehome.com/2024/07/12/our-survey-by-the-barest-of-margins-a-majority-of-panellists-reject-allying-with-reform-uk/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024&utm_content=Newsletter for Friday 12th July 2024+CID_00034388f5914f63a8c9298b091a2219&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=Our survey By the barest of margins a majority of panellists reject allying with Reform UK

Put me down for the 50%.

Daft

you Tories will be fighting each other for the next 10 years instead of Labour. Or in your case surrendering to the LDs.

Reform have 5 seats and are second in 98 seats. Of that reform are second to Labour in 91 seats, seats the Tories havent a hope in hell of winning. Cut a pact to let them have a free ride in 100 seats and they stand down in the others.

Avoid a pointless conflict and take the war to Starmer. Farage will be trying to secure Labour votes while you worry about the Blue wall and the LDs.

You won't fit three of those egos in the same room. They'll spontaneously combust years before the next election.

Everyone bewails the possibility of the Tories going 'into their comfort zone' and becoming an unelectable party because they swerve right before seeing sense and embracing 'centrism' again, but what if their actual wilderness years aren't that - what if their unelectability is going to come from resentful centrist turds who insist that Farage and all his works be condemned to the last MP, and make the party into a corporatist ivory tower, Labour without the voters - the Lib Dems without the enthused base. Farage won't believe his luck.

Essentially the Tories need to get back to being Conservatives. If voters want the LDs they will vote LD, if voters want Reform they will vote Reform.

The Tories need to retain a distinctive Tory and conservative identity as their best chance to retain and increase support, especially if the Labour government loses popularity

SeaShantyIrish2

MisterBedfordshire said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

MisterBedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

bondegezou said:

Selebian said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Welsh are about to get rid of their non white First Minister very quickly, just like the Scots.

Are the Celts intrinsically racist as it is a bad look.

The English United Kingdomians didn't keep theirs all that long, either!

The only people to not have quickly rejected a non-white leader - and therefore least racist in the UK - are the Northern Irish

Northern Ireland was also the first to elect a parliamentarian of Chinese heritage. They’ve also elected three female First/deputy First Ministers. Very progressive place.

Derry has elected its first black mayor. Also it's first woman balck mayor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8vv1yrmy05o

Never mind that. Is she the first Catholic black woman mayor or the first Protestant black woman mayor of the place* ?

*avoids the name issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilian_Seenoi-Barr

Dosen't say. (SDLP is mainly Catholic as the BBC never used to tire of pointing out but not exclusively).

Kenya on the other hand is mainly Protestant

Why don't you send the new Lord Mayor an email and ask her, are youse just another mackerel-eater?