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The Tory soap opera continues – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,917
edited July 17 in General
The Tory soap opera continues – politicalbetting.com

“She said Suella Braverman, former home secretary, appears to be having a 'very public' nervous breakdown”? ? ? https://t.co/aAbiDte7Ux

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,915
    edited July 11
    First like... who cares?

    Edit: Actually, I do - it's great entertainment.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,915
    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,681

    First like... who cares?

    Second , no-one
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,605
    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,915
    malcolmg said:

    First like... who cares?

    Second , no-one
    I was going to like that... and then realised who you were calling a 'no one'.

    (You're not wrong tbf)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,194
    typo in lead, "serous people"
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,677

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,915
    "It was not someone else’s fault." says Baverman, accusing everybody else of screwing up her chances of being PM.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,194
    The public quarrelling and spat between the two of them simply exemplifies everything that was wrong with the behaviour of the last government.

    Surely the Tories will realise that they need to put a grown up in charge?
  • Options
    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,194
    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    All those orders that came flooding in to the country's printers late in the month?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,554

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    The Tories need to find out how they get the none of the above voters (which is what Reform is, a protest vote) to vote for you?

    And eventually in about 2030 they will realise that there is no way of doing so and adopt a sensible plan, until then it will be a matter of watching them argue amongst themselves.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 20,296

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,681

    malcolmg said:

    First like... who cares?

    Second , no-one
    I was going to like that... and then realised who you were calling a 'no one'.

    (You're not wrong tbf)
    no-one called no-one a no-one
  • Options

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    See. Less than a week in office and Rachel Reeves has already got better economic numbers than the last guy.
    From the new government's POV, the timing of the election is as good as it was likely to get.
    Though they've a whole heap of problems to address, they can get all the bad news in now.

    Imagine, for example, if it had been a month later and Sunak's government had approved Offwat surrendering to the water companies before leaving office ; that decision is now in Starmer's hands.

    And there likely will be some continued economic rebound that they can take credit for without actually doing anything.

    But unless they do genuinely start to sort things out, the honeymoon won't last long.

    We'll know within a year.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,681

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,157

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    I agree too. But it's a balancing act, and you'd want to keep an eye on it. Two other examples:

    Reg plates for cyclists. Definitely not worth it.
    AI cameras for phone use. Probably worth it - one relatively cheap, mobile camera can catch thousands of drivers. It's as bad as drink driving and requires a deterrent.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,489
    edited July 11
    Interestingly if you could apportion individual blame for the Tories 'Nakba' I would say Braverman is persaonally responsible for losing them more seats than any otherl.

    I'd guess she was the biggest single motivating factor in getting the Greens and Lib Dems to the polling booths.

    Difficult to quantify but you could be talking about three figures of non Tory MPs owing their seats to Braverman. She cemented the tactical vote like no other.

    I can't be the only person motivated by Rwanda and her to get the nasties out of office by any means possible.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    You realise how few under 40s own a house and how big a proportion of the electorate they are?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906
    Reposting this story from the last thread.
    With the caveat that the solar figures will drop sharply over the winter, this is nonetheless remarkably encouraging news from China.

    Analysis: China’s clean energy pushes coal to record-low 53% share of power in May 2024

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-clean-energy-pushes-coal-to-record-low-53-share-of-power-in-may-2024/
    ...The new analysis for Carbon Brief, based on official figures and other data that only became available last week, reveals the true scale of the drop in coal’s share of the mix.

    Coal lost seven percentage points compared with May 2023, when it accounted for 60% of generation in China.

    Other key insights revealed by the analysis include:

    Monthly National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) data on generation by technology is now severely limited for wind and solar. For example, it excludes “distributed” rooftop solar and smaller centralised solar plants, capturing only about half of solar generation.
    This mismatch becomes clear when comparing the NBS total for monthly electricity generation of 718 terawatt hours (TWh) with reported monthly electricity demand of 775TWh, according to the National Energy Administration (NEA). In reality, electricity generation must be higher than demand due to losses at power plants and on the grid.
    Media reports have speculated that the record renewable capacity additions would have run into grid constraints in May, but the new data shows this is not the case.
    China’s electricity demand in May 2024 grew by 49TWh (7.2%) from a year earlier.
    At the same time, generation from clean energy sources grew by a record 78TWh, including a record rise from solar of 41TWh (78%), a recovery from earlier drought-driven lows for hydro of 34TWh (39%) and a modest rise for wind of 4TWh (5%).
    With clean energy expanding by more than the rise in electricity demand, fossil fuel output was forced into retreat, seeing the largest monthly drop since the Covid 19 pandemic. Gas generation fell by 4TWh (16%) and that from coal by 16TWh (4%).
    Falling generation from fossil fuels point to a 3.6% drop in CO2 emissions from the power sector, which accounts for around two-fifths of China’s total greenhouse gas emissions and has been the dominant source of emissions growth in recent years.
    The new findings show a continuation of recent trends, which helped send China’s carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from fossil fuels and cement into reverse in March 2024.

    If current rapid wind and solar deployment continues, then China’s CO2 output is likely to continue falling, making 2023 the peak year for the country’s emissions...


    One other leg of the energy transition - the switch to battery power for transport - is currently happening faster in China than in the west.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,476

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    Nope Reform are too extreme for my liking.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,403
    IanB2 said:

    The public quarrelling and spat between the two of them simply exemplifies everything that was wrong with the behaviour of the last government.

    Surely the Tories will realise that they need to put a grown up in charge?

    It’s just two mediocre politicians doing what they do (ref. Eleanor Roosevelt). The media is dramatising if because that is what they do.

    Neither would be good leaders, although Braverman would be a negative and Kemi merely a missed opportunity in my view.
  • Options
    theProletheProle Posts: 1,011

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Indeed. Stamped plates aren't going to be hard to clone either - I've a CNC milling machine and a 150T press at work, I could easily enough be doing a run of fake plates this afternoon if I wanted. It's a bit like the way gun control laws generally mean only criminals can still get guns easily, it would mean loads of hassle for normal people when a plate gets damaged, and people who really want cloned plates would still have cloned plates.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Yes, they basically need to say enough of the right things to persuade Reform voters to come back, without upsetting the other side.

    Possibly a multi parliament job - get a leader in who can draw back in Reform voters at least a bit, lose in 2029 but recover somewhat, then get a more centrist leader to build on it and hope Reform will be running out of steam by then.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    Malcolm is just advocating (somewhat forcefully) for his economic self-interest.
    Others with competing interests will do likewise.

  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,460
    Swella and Kevin the Minion should settle their beef the honourable way - with a round of golf.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    You realise how few under 40s own a house and how big a proportion of the electorate they are?
    That is very true, classic 'well I managed in very different circumstances so others must manage now' stuff, though he's still probably right house price collapse would be negative to election prospects.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    This race still needs a rank outsider. Take a punt on one of the new intake, at least it means Starmer will have nobplan for them.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    The average bill is set to increase by a forecasted £27.40, external in the current financial year (2024-25) to £473, according to Ofwat - something water companies attribute to having to invest more in their networks.

    Nevertheless, bills remain below what they were in 2019-20 when they stood at £503 a year.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmm26e1qpzgo

    So if water bills have been falling why are we regularly told that they've been 'soaring' and are 'sky high' ?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    Dura_Ace said:

    Swella and Kevin the Minion should settle their beef the honourable way - with a round of golf.

    Whatever happened to pistols at dawn?
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,061
    edited July 11
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    Malcolm is just advocating (somewhat forcefully) for his economic self-interest.
    Others with competing interests will do likewise.

    Fwiw my mortgage is paid off so I do not really care if the value of my home falls. It is not as if I can spend the money (ok there are fringe circumstances for borrowing but let's ignore those) and its fairly doubtful I'd even notice.

    The problem of negative equity for mortgage payers is real, though, and something might need to be done about it, especially if the government wants to stay in office. Ask John Major. #WeBuyAnyHouse.gov.uk
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,210
    Roger said:

    Interestingly if you could apportion individual blame for the Tories 'Nakba' I would say Braverman is persaonally responsible for losing them more seats than any otherl.

    I'd guess she was the biggest single motivating factor in getting the Greens and Lib Dems to the polling booths.

    Difficult to quantify but you could be talking about three figures of non Tory MPs owing their seats to Braverman. She cemented the tactical vote like no other.

    I can't be the only person motivated by Rwanda and her to get the nasties out of office by any means possible.

    Good morning

    We share our disgust about Braverman but Truss did far more damage and gave the opposition parties the biggest gift in political history

    And re the thread header I couldn't agree more

    Indeed the conservative party melodrama is demonstrating just why they need grown ups in charge but where are they ?
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 26,061
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Swella and Kevin the Minion should settle their beef the honourable way - with a round of golf.

    Whatever happened to pistols at dawn?
    Trump challenged Biden to a round of golf.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 5,085
    Eabhal said:

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    I agree too. But it's a balancing act, and you'd want to keep an eye on it. Two other examples:

    Reg plates for cyclists. Definitely not worth it.
    AI cameras for phone use. Probably worth it - one relatively cheap, mobile camera can catch thousands of drivers. It's as bad as drink driving and requires a deterrent.
    Not sure about reg plates for cyclists as such but when I lived in Switzerland you had to buy a little metal sticker for your bike each year which gave it a registration number that you downloaded to a database in case it was found etc but more importantly the cost of the sticker paid for an insurance policy.

    So all cyclists were insured for accidents on their bikes for damage to anyone or anything else which was a good thing. Wasn’t expensive, about £30 per year I think I recall.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645
    eek said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    The Tories need to find out how they get the none of the above voters (which is what Reform is, a protest vote) to vote for you?

    And eventually in about 2030 they will realise that there is no way of doing so and adopt a sensible plan, until then it will be a matter of watching them argue amongst themselves.
    Being in opposition helps to gain the “throw the bastards out” vote. To my mind, time will largely sort the Reform problem. Either the party will fall apart, or it will start picking up seats from Labour, where it’s in clear second place.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,915

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    You realise how few under 40s own a house and how big a proportion of the electorate they are?
    That is very true, classic 'well I managed in very different circumstances so others must manage now' stuff, though he's still probably right house price collapse would be negative to election prospects.
    Massively so. Labour’s performance in the elections of 2001-10 was hugely aided by rocketing house prices.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,403

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    It’s a cost benefit analysis (both money and hassle for law abiding citizens) vs benefit of a reduction in the number of offences.

    You will never get to zero offences.

    But they should invest more in policing as that has utility across multiple offences
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,645
    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,821
    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 40,330

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    That's what Blair wanted as part of the Galileo GNSS system.

    " system designed around Galileo would work (we use the word advisedly) in a similar way to the lorry road pricing scheme currently used in Germany, and proposed for the UK's Lorry Road User Charging scheme (LRUC), which was abandoned in favour of a general, national scheme in 2005. A 'black box' in the vehicle would be needed to take the vehicle's position from Galileo and to record and/or transmit on this data for use by the charging systems. In such a set-up positioning and use data is clearly collected, and clearly needs to be related to a charging mechanism (which in the case of most motorists would be a named account), and there you have your snoop record, the data that "the Government doesn't hold.""

    https://www.theregister.com/2007/02/22/blair_road_pricing_privacy/
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,407

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    What's to stop you disabling it?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,363

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    Might I suggest *everyone* with some sort of reputation to protect keeps of twatter?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,707
    IanB2 said:

    The public quarrelling and spat between the two of them simply exemplifies everything that was wrong with the behaviour of the last government.

    Surely the Tories will realise that they need to put a grown up in charge?

    You still get the squabbling kindergarten. Need more grown-ups. Need more ...
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,403
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First like... who cares?

    Second , no-one
    I was going to like that... and then realised who you were calling a 'no one'.

    (You're not wrong tbf)
    no-one called no-one a no-one
    Someone called anyone no one.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,707
    edited July 11
    geoffw said:

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    What's to stop you disabling it?
    Scanners beside ANPR cameras and in cop cars checking each vehicle that passes?

    Edit: In fact I'd *expect* those to be installed anyway as part of a digital tracker system.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,407
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
    Annualized ~ 5% . Not at all shabby. Too late for Rishi/Jeremy though, snaffled under their noses by Keir/Rachel

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743
    edited July 11
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
    Starmer and Reeves have landed at the right point of the economic cycle.

    Lucky Generals both.

    And the sun has come out too.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,403

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    You realise how few under 40s own a house
    and how big a proportion of the electorate they are?
    22.5% of people in the 24-34 bucket own a house based on a quick Google.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,403

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going
    down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    Unless it brings down the banking system…
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,403

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    The only people who lose big time are.

    Those that inherit.
    Investors/Landlords with multiple properties.
    The government if the owner goes into care as the self funded money runs out quicker.


    Excess asset price inflation is just as corrosive to society as any other type of inflation. It is at the root of most of the ills that currently bedevill our society.
    You should read The Trading Game by Gary Stevenson. This was exactly his central insight
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,029
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
    Just wait till economic growth in the NHS kicks off, the economy will be going gang busters.

    Still slightly mystified how this economic growth will express itself.

    https://x.com/martin_oneill/status/1810663913005982130?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,734

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    Which is why there was such determined opposition from civil liberties types, towards the huge expansion of what’s been going on in London for the past two decades.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Swella and Kevin the Minion should settle their beef the honourable way - with a round of golf.

    Whatever happened to pistols at dawn?
    Trump challenged Biden to a round of golf.
    Trump also challenged Biden to another debate.

    Maybe the two should have a public debate, so everyone can decide they want neither. Then they can both pack away their poisonous ambitions and let the party get on with deciding on someone voters might vote for.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,157
    edited July 11
    Sandpit said:

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    Which is why there was such determined opposition from civil liberties types, towards the huge expansion of what’s been going on in London for the past two decades.
    Isn't this just market driven? It's all the luxury cars that have trackers in them, so there met be some demand for it.

    Most people don't give a monkeys about tracking. Look at mobile phone uptake.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,311
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
    Perhaps looking at each month in isolation isn't a good idea.

    There's an element of ebb and flow about all of this - a poor April followed by a better May overall balances out. I suspect we're still in a period of growth but it's historically low. My concern is one month's strength will panic the MPC into postponing interest rate cuts to the autumn.

    Obviously, it doesn't make a lot of difference politically now if rates are cut in August, September or October - I suspect Reeves would like to be able to showcase the interest rate cut at her first Labour Conference speech as CoE but to be honest most people will be looking at the cats fighting in a sack which will be the Conservative Party shindig.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 20,296
    edited July 11

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    FTFY.

    Actually.

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    FTFY ^2
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,734
    edited July 11
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    Which is why there was such determined opposition from civil liberties types, towards the huge expansion of what’s been going on in London for the past two decades.
    Isn't this just market driven? It's all the luxury cars that have trackers in them, so there met be some demand for it.

    Most people don't give a monkeys about tracking. Look at mobile phone uptake.
    There is when the tracking data is used to send you a bill at the end of the month, or is used for enforcement.

    On the manufacturing side, the tracking is driven by the manufacturers, to collect their own terabytes of data, against the wishes of their customers who now have little choice in the matter. There are forums dedicated to finding and removing the always-online functionality of cars.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 20,296
    Cookie said:

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    Might I suggest *everyone* with some sort of reputation to protect keeps of twatter?
    So not Conservative politicians then?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,734

    Cookie said:

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    Might I suggest *everyone* with some sort of reputation to protect keeps of twatter?
    So not Conservative politicians then?
    David Cameron was right, back in 2009.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,033

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    The only people who lose big time are.

    Those that inherit.
    Investors/Landlords with multiple properties.
    The government if the owner goes into care as the self funded money runs out quicker.

    Excess asset price inflation is just as corrosive to society as any other type of inflation. It is at the root of most of the ills that currently bedevill our society.
    People who need to sell e.g. because they change jobs, also lose big time. At the start of the 90s there were lots of people who wanted to move but could not do so because the market was stagnant.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,814
    Off Topic. China building twice as much wind and solar power as rest of world

    "Between March 2023 and March 2024, China installed more solar than it had in the previous three years combined, and more than the rest of the world combined for 2023, the GEM analysts found. China is on track to reach 1,200GW of installed wind and solar capacity by the end of 2024, six years ahead of the government’s target."
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-building-twice-as-much-wind-and-solar-power-as-rest-of-world-report/ar-BB1pMji3?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=b8a090311d9048e4a20e3489a4bec021&ei=24
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,157
    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT.

    theProle said:

    “At the moment we have 40,000 outfits purporting to make number plates,” he laughs. “It’s ridiculous. We need to increase the annual fee to be a plate manufacturer – at the moment it’s just £40. The number plate is classed as ‘personal information’ by the Information Commissioner, but we don’t have our driving licences or passports made this way.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    I always presumed they were highly controlled in the way being a locksmith is.

    Basically every motor factor does plates. If you're a normal punter, you have to show a V5 before they will make you a plate up, however trade customers sign something to take responsibility and can just get them on demand. Unfortunately, any other solution is wildly impractical - imagine being an accident repair center and having to produce all the paperwork for every car which needs a bumper.

    Also, peices of perspex with some letters on and some reflective yellow backing are never going to be particularly difficult to make and are totally unregulated if you apply a sticky label saying "not for road use".

    Unfortunately the best fix is to not try and do everything via ANPR as a substitute for actual policing.
    Is it 'wildly impractical' ?

    My Aussie Ex was bemused by how lax our number plate laws were, and said in Aussie (Vic in her case) you could only have them made at a few set places. Though that might differ state-by-state.

    Our current system is an absolute farce. It needs tightening up.
    What problem are we trying to solve by tightening up number plate manufacture?

    The ex-copper quoted in the article that started this sub-thread said:-

    “It’s not hard to defeat the system,” explains Tony Porter, a retired senior police officer and former surveillance commissioner for England and Wales. “You get legitimate number plates being rendered unreadable with mud, or deliberately masked or altered. You get expired plates from scrapped cars being applied to other vehicles, or plates stolen from a parked car to be fitted to another.”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/10/anpr-cameras-vigilante-drivers-surveillance/

    Restricting who can make plates will fix precisely none of those issues.
    Move to metal (stamped) plates for all new cars.

    A big issue is that number plates are used for much more than they were a few decades ago. A years or so ago, my parents had the police rocking up to their door because their car had been used in something illegal. The number plate had been cloned. Large amounts of police and other resources are being wasted because owner, car and plates are *not* reliably linked. It also decreases road safety as @sshats think they can just chuck a false plate onto a car and go speeding.
    Yes and your proposed solution will be expensive, inefficient and still does not address the problem. People, bad people, who are prepared to break the laws against carrying sawn-off shotguns, robbing banks or selling drugs, are also not above fitting false plates. Even if every number plate in the land has to be signed by the King himself, people can still cover them in mud, alter them with tape or paint, or steal plates from another car. Or just use one of the thousands of kits that will be made redundant when your measures go through parliament.
    *No* system will stop a determined criminal. What you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

    The current system simply does not work. What would be your proposal?
    Accept that no system will stop a determined criminal and that utopian attempts will cause more misery than they relieve, so accept it isnt a panacea and do nothing.
    So you would not have any systems to stop criminals at all?
    No I would leave the existing system in place and not waste money on expensive, utopian and authoritarian measures that achieve little other than making it harder to replace a broken number plate.
    Well said, something I can completely agree with you on.

    We don't need an authoritarian desire for perfection to replace the good enough.

    This isn't an 80/20 problem, its a 99.5/0.5 problem and the 99.5 is good enough and the 0.5 is never getting addressed whatever you do.
    Surely the answer, whether we like it or not, is going to be compulsory digital trackers in vehicles? They'll be brought in for road pricing imo.
    Which is why there was such determined opposition from civil liberties types, towards the huge expansion of what’s been going on in London for the past two decades.
    Isn't this just market driven? It's all the luxury cars that have trackers in them, so there met be some demand for it.

    Most people don't give a monkeys about tracking. Look at mobile phone uptake.
    There is when the tracking data is used to send you a bill at the end of the month, or is used for enforcement.

    On the manufacturing side, the tracking is driven by the manufacturers, to collect their own terabytes of data, against the wishes of their customers who now have little choice in the matter.
    If it brings your insurance premium down then most people will go for it. See black boxes for younger drivers. People will sacrifice almost everything for convenience and cost (sadly).

    I think the libertarian tendency on PB just isn't reflected in the general population, and when they pop up on Facebook they are met with lots of tin hat memes. You get far more authoritarians IRL than you do here as well.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,146
    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
    Perhaps looking at each month in isolation isn't a good idea.

    There's an element of ebb and flow about all of this - a poor April followed by a better May overall balances out. I suspect we're still in a period of growth but it's historically low. My concern is one month's strength will panic the MPC into postponing interest rate cuts to the autumn.

    Obviously, it doesn't make a lot of difference politically now if rates are cut in August, September or October - I suspect Reeves would like to be able to showcase the interest rate cut at her first Labour Conference speech as CoE but to be honest most people will be looking at the cats fighting in a sack which will be the Conservative Party shindig.
    It may take the Conservative Party a while to accustom itself to the idea that it is rather less important than it was.

    If it continues to argue publicly and pointlessly it will quickly become even less important. It has just 50 more seats than the LDs, ffs. Does nobody in the Party appreciate that?

  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,193
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    That is very good news. Economic growth will be well above forecasts, this year.
    Good , no need for tax cuts.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,157

    Off Topic. China building twice as much wind and solar power as rest of world

    "Between March 2023 and March 2024, China installed more solar than it had in the previous three years combined, and more than the rest of the world combined for 2023, the GEM analysts found. China is on track to reach 1,200GW of installed wind and solar capacity by the end of 2024, six years ahead of the government’s target."
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-building-twice-as-much-wind-and-solar-power-as-rest-of-world-report/ar-BB1pMji3?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=b8a090311d9048e4a20e3489a4bec021&ei=24

    Crazy how this has changed in the last decade. China is still burning lots of coal, but the Environmental Kuznets Curve for carbon is getting well and truly flattened.

    Their economy is going to steam (lol) ahead of the rest based on this insanely cheap energy. Gonna be tough keeping up.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,423

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    The only people who lose big time are.

    Those that inherit.
    Investors/Landlords with multiple properties.
    The government if the owner goes into care as the self funded money runs out quicker.


    Excess asset price inflation is just as corrosive to society as any other type of inflation. It is at the root of most of the ills that currently bedevill our society.
    You should read The Trading Game by Gary Stevenson. This was exactly his central insight
    To reduce the price rises on houses to below inflation, let alone crash the market, would take a heroic level of house building.

    France has the same population (pretty much) and 8 million more properties. And yet their house prices are not zero.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Swella and Kevin the Minion should settle their beef the honourable way - with a round of golf.

    Whatever happened to pistols at dawn?
    Trump challenged Biden to a round of golf.
    If they did go pistols at dawn, would Biden have immunity if he shot Trump dead ?

    While I have doubts about the steadiness of his aim, Trump does present a larger target.
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 628
    Cookie said:

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    Might I suggest *everyone* with some sort of reputation to protect keeps of twatter?
    So not me then.....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,018

    Off Topic. China building twice as much wind and solar power as rest of world

    "Between March 2023 and March 2024, China installed more solar than it had in the previous three years combined, and more than the rest of the world combined for 2023, the GEM analysts found. China is on track to reach 1,200GW of installed wind and solar capacity by the end of 2024, six years ahead of the government’s target."
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-building-twice-as-much-wind-and-solar-power-as-rest-of-world-report/ar-BB1pMji3?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=b8a090311d9048e4a20e3489a4bec021&ei=24

    Are they banning gas boilers or ICE cars though ?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,363
    eristdoof said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    The only people who lose big time are.

    Those that inherit.
    Investors/Landlords with multiple properties.
    The government if the owner goes into care as the self funded money runs out quicker.

    Excess asset price inflation is just as corrosive to society as any other type of inflation. It is at the root of most of the ills that currently bedevill our society.
    People who need to sell e.g. because they change jobs, also lose big time. At the start of the 90s there were lots of people who wanted to move but could not do so because the market was stagnant.
    To go slightly off the subject in hand, it strikes me that this feels like it is a lot less common than it used to be.
    When I was at primary school in my middle class suburb in the 80s it seemed comparatively unusual that kids came and went as their fathers (inevitably their fathers in those days) got work in different parts of the country. It seems very rare now, even though we are much less inclined to stick to one employer. Suggested reasons:
    1) Almost no family can survive on one income any more - how do you coordinate two earners moving to a different city? With great difficulty.
    2) The pattern of employment has changed. Middle class employment is to a much greater extent focused on cities rather than big campuses in the middle of nowhere. And if you live in a city, you can quite easily change employers without changing geography.
    3) We are much more willing and able to work somewhere in a different part of the country to where we live. This is especially true since 2020, but had been growing quite a lot in the previous decade.
    4) Social convention. Because fewer people do it, it's no longer seen as something you can do with impunity. Uprooting your family's entire social network seems a rather odd thing to do in a way it didn't previously, so fewer people do it. If you can't move within the catchment of the school your kids are at, you don't move at all. Obviously there are exceptions - but they seem remarkable in a way that they wouldn't have done 40 years ago.
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 628
    GIN1138 said:

    UK economy grew faster than expected in May

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp682nprlw7o

    These monthly figures are all over the place. Best just to use quarterly
  • Options
    Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 134
    Off topic but the Skewer’s election special is out: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0020y3s

    28 odd minutes on the last six weeks or so of crazy. [be warned an awful lot of swearing]
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 60,122
    And we're off!!!!


    Former shadow chancellor
    @JohnMcDonnellMP tells @MattChorley

    he plans to table amendments to Rachel Reeves' first Budget to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906

    Off Topic. China building twice as much wind and solar power as rest of world

    "Between March 2023 and March 2024, China installed more solar than it had in the previous three years combined, and more than the rest of the world combined for 2023, the GEM analysts found. China is on track to reach 1,200GW of installed wind and solar capacity by the end of 2024, six years ahead of the government’s target."
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-building-twice-as-much-wind-and-solar-power-as-rest-of-world-report/ar-BB1pMji3?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=b8a090311d9048e4a20e3489a4bec021&ei=24

    That wasn't a particularly demanding target.

    The more impressive news is that Chinese renewables growth is currently outstripping the strong growth in energy demand. (And that's based on US analysis of their figures, not just the official stats.)
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,677

    Cookie said:

    Might I suggest Conservative politicians keep off twatter ?

    Might I suggest *everyone* with some sort of reputation to protect keeps of twatter?
    So not Conservative politicians then?
    Conservative Politicians have a reputation, for sure.

    Unfortunately, it's similar to that of the the 13th Duke of Wybourne.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,363

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    I don't think Reform voters' views are necessarily 'extreme'. No doubt some are, but not all 4 million of them. If they have one major theme it's that they want much less immigration: I don't think this is extreme, nor confined to Reform voters.
    Similarly, although I would call the Green Party 'extremist', I don't think their voters are necessarily extreme - or at least, not most of them. I don't think their views are so easily characterised as Reform voters, but no doubt many of them simply think 'mm - the environment - that's an important issue. Perhaps the most important issue. So I'll vote Green.' I don't think that unreasonable either.
  • Options
    twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,242
    edited July 11
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,524
    German TV commentary and analysis agreed that it was a penalty according to the rules - though I've noticed German commentators rarely disagree much with referee decisions. OTH, Bild, for example, has splashed on Neville saying it was never a penalty.

    German consensus after the Switzerland game: England played badly but are in the semis, whereas Germany played well but are out. Them's the breaks.

    German consensus after last night: England deserved to win, but where the hell was this team for the first 5 matches? England's chances of winning the final have increased from approximately zero before last night's game, to maybe 40%.
  • Options
    eristdoof said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    The only people who lose big time are.

    Those that inherit.
    Investors/Landlords with multiple properties.
    The government if the owner goes into care as the self funded money runs out quicker.

    Excess asset price inflation is just as corrosive to society as any other type of inflation. It is at the root of most of the ills that currently bedevill our society.
    People who need to sell e.g. because they change jobs, also lose big time. At the start of the 90s there were lots of people who wanted to move but could not do so because the market was stagnant.
    No, because they will likey get something bigger so pay proportionally less for the new place and better off.

    Negative equity is something that affects a proportion of sellers (but should be fixable if they are selling then buying by transferrable mortgages - not beyond the wit of man).

    Those who buy at the peak and get negative equity I have great sympathy for.

    Those who use their house as a cash machine by remortgaging when the value goes up for a higher mortgage for more money to spend, rather less sympathy.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,018

    And we're off!!!!


    Former shadow chancellor
    @JohnMcDonnellMP tells @MattChorley

    he plans to table amendments to Rachel Reeves' first Budget to scrap the two-child benefit cap.

    It'll be interesting to see who goes where on this proposed amendment. The govt should be able to face it down with their majority though
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906
    Pulpstar said:

    Off Topic. China building twice as much wind and solar power as rest of world

    "Between March 2023 and March 2024, China installed more solar than it had in the previous three years combined, and more than the rest of the world combined for 2023, the GEM analysts found. China is on track to reach 1,200GW of installed wind and solar capacity by the end of 2024, six years ahead of the government’s target."
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-building-twice-as-much-wind-and-solar-power-as-rest-of-world-report/ar-BB1pMji3?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=b8a090311d9048e4a20e3489a4bec021&ei=24

    Are they banning gas boilers or ICE cars though ?
    They are building EVs a lot faster than anyone else in the world.

    Amusingly for a nominally communist society, the market, rather than government dictat, is now likely to switch their transport sector to renewables.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,157
    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    I don't think Reform voters' views are necessarily 'extreme'. No doubt some are, but not all 4 million of them. If they have one major theme it's that they want much less immigration: I don't think this is extreme, nor confined to Reform voters.
    Similarly, although I would call the Green Party 'extremist', I don't think their voters are necessarily extreme - or at least, not most of them. I don't think their views are so easily characterised as Reform voters, but no doubt many of them simply think 'mm - the environment - that's an important issue. Perhaps the most important issue. So I'll vote Green.' I don't think that unreasonable either.
    More in Common had some good polling before the election that did suggest that Reform voters were really quite "out there". Much more pro-Trump than everyone else, for example, with Tory voters much closer to Labour/Lib.

    I'd be intrigued to see if that's the case for those who actually voted for them in the end.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,326

    And we're off!!!!


    Former shadow chancellor
    @JohnMcDonnellMP tells @MattChorley

    he plans to table amendments to Rachel Reeves' first Budget to scrap the two-child benefit cap.

    Good for him.
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 1,763
    edited July 11
    Pulpstar said:

    And we're off!!!!


    Former shadow chancellor
    @JohnMcDonnellMP tells @MattChorley

    he plans to table amendments to Rachel Reeves' first Budget to scrap the two-child benefit cap.

    It'll be interesting to see who goes where on this proposed amendment. The govt should be able to face it down with their majority though
    Which is one reason why Farage was right to point out that the bigger the Labour majority, the more moderate the government when Sunak was banging on about people voting Reform giving Labour a supermajority.

    The other reason is that constituency Labour Parties in normally hopeless seats don't tend to be infested with trots and choose moderate candidates.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906
    So, the Heritage Foundation, home of Project 2025 was hacked by ahem gay furries.

    What follows in these tweets with Mike Howell of the Heritage Foundation is utterly hilarious.

    https://x.com/TheRickWilson/status/1811150586538020956
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,363
    edited July 11
    kamski said:

    German TV commentary and analysis agreed that it was a penalty according to the rules - though I've noticed German commentators rarely disagree much with referee decisions. OTH, Bild, for example, has splashed on Neville saying it was never a penalty.

    German consensus after the Switzerland game: England played badly but are in the semis, whereas Germany played well but are out. Them's the breaks.

    German consensus after last night: England deserved to win, but where the hell was this team for the first 5 matches? England's chances of winning the final have increased from approximately zero before last night's game, to maybe 40%.

    This is just one aspect of football's institutional stupidity.

    If there is a transgression, the only thing you can do is award a free kick, which if it's inside the area is a penalty. But for some acts of blatant cheating - pulling down a forward running through at goal, but outside the penalty area, from where the chances of a goal are maybe 20%, the punishment - a free kick, from which the chances of scoring a goal are probably rather less than 2%, and a yellow card - seems a ridiculously small sanction. For other minor transgressions which happen to be in the box: yes, they need sanction, but you have gone from a 5% chance of scoring to a 75% chance of scoring.

    In rugby, there is a much better balance between the magnitude of the transgression and the chances of profiting from the situation. And if you transgress, and get caught, you are always worse off than if you did not transgress.

    None of this would matter so much if football wasn't such a ridiculously low scoring game. In a high-scoring game like rugby the unfairnesses even themselves out over time. Whereas in football every one is pored over and everyone agonises about how things could have been different. Usually in sport, one individual or team deserves to win, and wins: you rarely come out of a sporting occasion having lost and thinking 'we should have won that but for incident x, which was unfair for reason y. But in football you almost always do. It's almost designed to make people cross.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Football is stupid.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,554

    eristdoof said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    The ideal for the Conservatives is to get the votes of Reform backers without turning into Reform themselves. Partly because it would be bad government, but also because there are still more votes to lose on their left flank.

    Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. The best way would have been to strangle them at birth, but it's about twenty years too later for that.
    Do you mean by attempting to deceive them by
    putting a few right wing bones in the manifesto you have no intention of implementing (the norm)?

    Which no longer works.

    Or actually addressing the problem which means both building a lot more houses on nimby members prized view and stopping immigration to the extent that there is net migration to facilitate a house price collapase so that under 40s can get somewhere to live without paying an extortionate amount?

    All of which is anathema to the wealthy vested interests controlling the party.
    How stupid can you be, anyone facilitating a house price collapse would be out on their arses tout suite. Typical selfish arseholes wanting to bankrupt lots of people because they want everything for nothing. Get out and earn enough to buy a house you sad sick loser.
    A house price collapse doesn't bankrupt anyone, it just makes costs more affordable. If you've been paying off your mortgage (or paid it off) you owe less or nothing on your home already, it's those who need to buy one we should be caring about not those who already have one.

    Costs going up is a bad thing, costs going down is a good thing. Or do you want gas prices and other costs to only ever go up?
    The only people who lose big time are.

    Those that inherit.
    Investors/Landlords with multiple properties.
    The government if the owner goes into care as the self funded money runs out quicker.

    Excess asset price inflation is just as corrosive to society as any other type of inflation. It is at the root of most of the ills that currently bedevill our society.
    People who need to sell e.g. because they change jobs, also lose big time. At the start of the 90s there were lots of people who wanted to move but could not do so because the market was stagnant.
    No, because they will likey get something bigger so pay proportionally less for the new place and better off.

    Negative equity is something that affects a proportion of sellers (but should be fixable if they are selling then buying by transferrable mortgages - not beyond the wit of man).

    Those who buy at the peak and get negative equity I have great sympathy for.

    Those who use their house as a cash machine by remortgaging when the value goes up for a higher mortgage for more money to spend, rather less sympathy.
    Transferrable mortgages were very much a thing in Northern Ireland when the Irish HPC impacted them - it wasn't a problem..
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,498
    Sunak and Hunt are serious people and have just left the Conservative party to its worst defeat in its history. I expect most Tory members and many Tory MPs will first be looking for a leader who can win back some voters who went to ReformUK while also holding onto almost all who stayed Conservative on 4th July.

    Braverman may do the former but not the latter, Badenoch could do both. Tugendhat is a serious candidate who would hold most current Tory voters and maybe win back some lost to the LDs but he wouldn't win back any lost to Reform and could leak further to Farage
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 60,122
    Fearing a floor revolt against his nomination, President Biden’s aides are telephoning individual delegates to next month’s Democratic convention to gauge their loyalty to the president, according to three delegates who received a call this week.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/10/act-of-desperation-bidens-team-checks-delegates-for-loyalty-00167393
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,498

    And we're off!!!!


    Former shadow chancellor
    @JohnMcDonnellMP tells @MattChorley

    he plans to table amendments to Rachel Reeves' first Budget to scrap the two-child benefit cap.

    I would originally have opposed his amendment but as we need to increase our birthrate it has some merit
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,363
    Eabhal said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    I asked a friend how he voted and he said Reform. I then asked him why he wanted and got a LD mp... doh... no answer was forthcoming.

    Yebbut, you don't want his vote do you:

    The last thing the Tories need is Reform voters. Their views are extreme.

    I don't think Reform voters' views are necessarily 'extreme'. No doubt some are, but not all 4 million of them. If they have one major theme it's that they want much less immigration: I don't think this is extreme, nor confined to Reform voters.
    Similarly, although I would call the Green Party 'extremist', I don't think their voters are necessarily extreme - or at least, not most of them. I don't think their views are so easily characterised as Reform voters, but no doubt many of them simply think 'mm - the environment - that's an important issue. Perhaps the most important issue. So I'll vote Green.' I don't think that unreasonable either.
    More in Common had some good polling before the election that did suggest that Reform voters were really quite "out there". Much more pro-Trump than everyone else, for example, with Tory voters much closer to Labour/Lib.

    I'd be intrigued to see if that's the case for those who actually voted for them in the end.
    Much more likely to be pro-Trump, certainly. But that probably goes from 1 in 100 among supporters of other parties to, what, 1 in 20 among supporters of Reform. I would guess.
    There were so many Reform voters that I'd be surprised if more than a small minority had *out there* views.

    And in the interests of balance ditto the Green Party.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,906
    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    German TV commentary and analysis agreed that it was a penalty according to the rules - though I've noticed German commentators rarely disagree much with referee decisions. OTH, Bild, for example, has splashed on Neville saying it was never a penalty.

    German consensus after the Switzerland game: England played badly but are in the semis, whereas Germany played well but are out. Them's the breaks.

    German consensus after last night: England deserved to win, but where the hell was this team for the first 5 matches? England's chances of winning the final have increased from approximately zero before last night's game, to maybe 40%.

    This is just one aspect of football's institutional stupidity.

    If there is a transgression, the only thing you can do is award a free kick, which if it's inside the area is a penalty. But for some acts of blatant cheating - pulling down a forward running through at goal, but outside the penalty area, from where the chances of a goal are maybe 20%, the punishment - a free kick, from which the chances of scoring a goal are probably rather less than 2%, and a yellow card - seems a ridiculously small sanction. For other minor transgressions which happen to be in the box: yes, they need sanction, but you have gone from a 5% chance of scoring to a 75% chance of scoring.

    In rugby, there is a much better balance between the magnitude of the transgression and the chances of profiting from the situation. And if you transgress, and get caught, you are always worse off than if you did not transgress.

    None of this would matter so much if football wasn't such a ridiculously low scoring game. In a high-scoring game like rugby the unfairnesses even themselves out over time. Whereas in football every one is pored over and everyone agonises about how things could have been different. Usually in sport, one individual or team deserves to win, and wins: you rarely come out of a sporting occasion having lost and thinking 'we should have won that but for incident x, which was unfair for reason y. But in football you almost always do. It's almost designed to make people cross.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Football is stupid.
    That's the point isn't it ?
    As we saw last night with the comments about the NL coach, decades long grudges are the lifeblood of the sport.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 60,122
    Pulpstar said:

    And we're off!!!!


    Former shadow chancellor
    @JohnMcDonnellMP tells @MattChorley

    he plans to table amendments to Rachel Reeves' first Budget to scrap the two-child benefit cap.

    It'll be interesting to see who goes where on this proposed amendment. The govt should be able to face it down with their majority though
    Then they shut up about child poverty then.
This discussion has been closed.