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An outlier or harbingers? – politicalbetting.com

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  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Not a surprise
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,753

    Jonathan said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Silly sausage. The Tories brought is the highest taxes ever.
    Interestingly Paul Johnson of the IFS explained this is actually a bit of an overly simplified categorisation. Those on average wages, their direct taxation is lowest for 50 years. Its the very rich and large corporations who have been absolutely hammered under the Tories.

    He didn't actually believe this was true himself (Hunt claimed it in a speech) and he went and checked and he said its true.
    If people paid only direct taxes, that might be an interesting point from Hunt and the IFS but they don't so it isn't.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487

    carnforth said:

    Is there any psephological reason to think the exit poll will be less reliable this time, due to Reform or any other factor?

    I think with so many 3-4 way contests, and a likelihood of lots of close results it could be a bit less reliable than last time. But these things are designed to level out the error.
    Don't forget they underestimated the Tories by 15 seats in 2015, saying they'd get 316 seats when in fact they got 331, which made the difference between being short by 10 and a majority of 12.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813

    Jonathan said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Silly sausage. The Tories brought is the highest taxes ever.
    Interestingly Paul Johnson of the IFS explained this is actually a bit of an overly simplified categorisation. Those on average wages, their direct taxation is lowest for 50 years. Its the very rich and large corporations who have been absolutely hammered under the Tories.

    He didn't actually believe this was true himself (Hunt claimed it in a speech) and he went and checked and he said its true.
    If people paid only direct taxes, that might be an interesting point from Hunt and the IFS but they don't so it isn't.
    Paul Johnson thought it was, he brought it up in an interview.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Did he have his fingers crossed at the time ?

    Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh in September 2018:

    “Under the Constitution, the president is not above the law. No one is above the law…The president remains subject to the law.”

    https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807835389865951253

    Lying fucker.

    I totally disagree with this characterisation.

    You missed out 'creepy.'
    Chief Justice John Roberts at his confirmation hearing: “No one is above the law under our system and that includes the president. The president is fully bound by the law.” (Sept. 2005)
    https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807882444663587082

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    I mean I called it. Should have bet on it but wouldn’t have got very long odds.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    All over now. The bigger team always win on penalties. Ok 90% of the time
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    Late Con surge on the cards?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    The weird thing about the US Justices and Trumpers is they are relying on their opponents not being as bad as they say they are - Trump claims he was well within his rights as President to try to interfere in elections run by the states, and to try to get state houses to not certify results or even ignore them completely (in Pennsyvania they wanted millions tossed out on the basis of very minor allegations of impropriety), and the Court takes such a wide interpretation of such matters, that Biden and the Dems have a green light to reject election outcomes they do not like just as Trump did.

    So they are relying, in a situation where the GOP legitimately win, that the Democrats will not abuse their positions as Trump did, even though legally Biden himself could do so without fear.

    The Supreme Court judges are a step ahead of you. They leave open what is private (and subject to the law) and what is due to Trump's office (and above the law). This has two partisan benefits from their perspective. It buys time for Trump to get elected while they work what is official and what is private. It allows them also to determine as private anything Biden, or other Democrat, does that they don't like.
    Unfortunately, they are not idiots. They are much too effective at advancing their aims.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764
    Are Slovenia England in disguise? :lol:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610
    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,142

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Don't ask that, comrade.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,541
    edited July 1

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Arron banks?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,498
    Ooooh

    What was the last poll reported that has not particularly-adjusted figures in the headline? Seeing some *interesting* trends here at Survation HQ in current fieldwork

    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1807892487551570024
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Give it a few minutes and someone will claim it's from the Kremlin.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    DavidL said:

    2 excellent goalkeepers. This could take a while

    That was a worse forecast than most of my cricket predictions
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    I feel sorry for Slovenia. They had their big chance in the second half of extra time. They weren't going to win it after that

    Just like Slovakia weren't going to go through when Jude scored on 90+5
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,498
    England are fucked if they meet Portugal in this tournament and it goes to penalties.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,142
    carnforth said:

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Arron banks?
    And who's giving him the money?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    £1m is not that much, with so many Tories backing them I'm sure they could get that much from just a few donors.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    GIN1138 said:

    Late Con surge on the cards?

    Why?

    No overall majority is trading at 32. Pretty much the longest it has been all campaign.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,651
    Workers Party candidate in Sutton Coldfield has had to suspend his campaigning after his canvassers were attacked by men with baseball bats and machetes leaving some, including his son, in hospital
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    Not sure I've ever seen a 3-0 win in a penalty shoot out before.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited July 1

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Didn't Zia Yusuf give them like £400-500k. Richard Tice is loaded. Also, remember they had that Holly Valance fund raiser a couple of weeks ago, that I think raised a lot of money (her husband is a billionaire and I don't think has given to the Tories this time).
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 1

    England are fucked if they meet Portugal in this tournament and it goes to penalties.

    Fixed that for you.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,541

    carnforth said:

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Arron banks?
    And who's giving him the money?
    Darn ruskies. Or, his successful insurance business. One of the two.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,081

    All over now. The bigger team always win on penalties. Ok 90% of the time

    Portugal have a great record in shootouts, I think (without checking).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    England are fucked if they meet Portugal in this tournament and it goes to penalties.

    I would rate our chances of beating them in real play. They are not good
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 792

    Ooooh

    What was the last poll reported that has not particularly-adjusted figures in the headline? Seeing some *interesting* trends here at Survation HQ in current fieldwork

    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1807892487551570024

    As phrased I think that's tory voters coming back right? From experience of his previous poll ramping he'd be calling them explosive, seismic, cataclysmic if the other way. Something reasonably apocalyptic.

    Unless it's a lib dem surge I guess.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    REF max 8% probably 5%.

    CON heading for 28% maybe 30% but still big majority for LAB
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,081
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Reform aren't planning any of that. They're all about immigration.
    They have some insane spending plans.
    They plan to have zero net immigration.

    Reform would crash the economy if elected. Luckily, they will be nowhere near the levers of power.
    Yes we're not France.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Ooooh

    What was the last poll reported that has not particularly-adjusted figures in the headline? Seeing some *interesting* trends here at Survation HQ in current fieldwork

    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1807892487551570024

    The Seventh Circle of Hell is reserved for the poll rampers (although I suppose he is referring to the fieldwork not the final numbers).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    England are fucked if they meet Portugal in this tournament and it goes to penalties.

    It will be the final though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048

    On France, I think it’s foolish of the other parties to form grand and contorted coalitions to thwart the FN. The best strategy is to let them govern. Give them the rope and let them hang themselves. If they’re anything like the populist British right they’ll fragment in no time at all.

    The problem with that idea is that the National Ramblers have been in power at various levels in the French system, already. The days when they instantly bombed out when they got on the local council are decades in the past.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 792
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The judge in my latest case today decided we had to start again. Deeply frustrating because the case will now run to the end of the week and beyond making a late election night impossible. I will go home on Friday and vote at 7 on Thursday but it will be an early night for me 😞

    You can "restart" cases that quickly in Scotland? Or is it that you're now expeceted in the office instead?

    (This might be a completely impossible question to answer in your circumstances due to doxxing n that, in which case please instead answer by a link to an interesting youtube video)

    DavidL said:

    The judge in my latest case today decided we had to start again. Deeply frustrating because the case will now run to the end of the week and beyond making a late election night impossible. I will go home on Friday and vote at 7 on Thursday but it will be an early night for me 😞

    You can "restart" cases that quickly in Scotland? Or is it that you're now expeceted in the office instead?

    (This might be a completely impossible question to answer in your circumstances due to doxxing n that, in which case please instead answer by a link to an interesting youtube video)
    Not always but we have done it this time. Generally, if something goes awry we just start again with a new jury. Cases that are adjourned have to wait a long time.
    Thanks. Will you be able to give a wee bit of a write up of what occurred once the case is finished do you think? I find this sort of thing interesting. But know just enough to know this might be impossible for loads of reasons, even if you're inclined to indulge the whims of an internet stranger.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Did he have his fingers crossed at the time ?

    Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh in September 2018:

    “Under the Constitution, the president is not above the law. No one is above the law…The president remains subject to the law.”

    https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807835389865951253

    Lying fucker.

    I totally disagree with this characterisation.

    You missed out 'creepy.'
    Chief Justice John Roberts at his confirmation hearing: “No one is above the law under our system and that includes the president. The president is fully bound by the law.” (Sept. 2005)
    https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807882444663587082

    Deeply, profoundly, dishonest scum. The damage they have done is incalculable.
    He simply affirmed the President cannot be prosecuted anymore than the King or PM can here for exercising their constitutional or prerogative powers. Only if they act illegally in a private capacity can they be prosecuted. I am no Trump fan but legally it was a reasoned case
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 580

    Ooooh

    What was the last poll reported that has not particularly-adjusted figures in the headline? Seeing some *interesting* trends here at Survation HQ in current fieldwork

    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1807892487551570024

    As phrased I think that's tory voters coming back right? From experience of his previous poll ramping he'd be calling them explosive, seismic, cataclysmic if the other way. Something reasonably apocalyptic.

    Unless it's a lib dem surge I guess.
    Could be Labour down <40 ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Did he have his fingers crossed at the time ?

    Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh in September 2018:

    “Under the Constitution, the president is not above the law. No one is above the law…The president remains subject to the law.”

    https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807835389865951253

    Lying fucker.

    I totally disagree with this characterisation.

    You missed out 'creepy.'
    Chief Justice John Roberts at his confirmation hearing: “No one is above the law under our system and that includes the president. The president is fully bound by the law.” (Sept. 2005)
    https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807882444663587082

    Deeply, profoundly, dishonest scum. The damage they have done is incalculable.
    I try to remain as objective possible (not always successfully I admit), but the staggering implications of what they have ruled just keep hitting me.

    Yes, for Trump who is openly vindictive and seeking retribution, but also for whomever is President. Biden, Obama, any future President, the power they have just granted, and more than that the temptation to abuse the power knowing how difficult and costly it would be to try to rein them in, it's astonishing.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,808

    REF max 8% probably 5%.

    CON heading for 28% maybe 30% but still big majority for LAB

    starting to look that way
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682

    Workers Party candidate in Sutton Coldfield has had to suspend his campaigning after his canvassers were attacked by men with baseball bats and machetes leaving some, including his son, in hospital

    Totally wrong even if I disagree with them
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 792

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Give it a few minutes and someone will claim it's from the Kremlin.

    carnforth said:

    Guido Fawkes
    @GuidoFawkes

    Reform Executing £1 Million Advertising Blitz in Final Week https://order-order.com/2024/07/01/reform-executing-1-million-advertising-blitz-in-final-week


    Where is the money coming from?

    Arron banks?
    And who's giving him the money?
    Close enough.

    Sometimes people can just be cunts. They don't have to be traitorous cunts.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    Never underestimate the conservatives. Their voters turn out on election day. It’s going to be a hell of a lot closer than hyped polls suggest.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,496
    carnforth said:

    kle4 said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Shit, I crossed over the 50k line just 3 months ago!
    If fiscal drag continues, I wonder what percentage of people will be higher rate taxpayers by the end of the next parliament.
    Maybe 25% but the Daily Mail and Daily Express will still call a top quartile income a "middle income".
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243

    GIN1138 said:

    Late Con surge on the cards?

    Why?

    No overall majority is trading at 32. Pretty much the longest it has been all campaign.
    Well obviously there will be a Labour majority (all most certainly a landslide) but it does look as though Con's messaging about the Labour "supermajority" and Lab tax plans might be having some cut through with Con > Ref switchers?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited July 1
    Jonathan said:

    Never underestimate the conservatives. Their voters turn out on election day. It’s going to be a hell of a lot closer than hyped polls suggest.

    It might not be 20% gap, but it won't be close.

    I think its true for both main parties get more of their supporters back on the day, because for all the moaning, most of the British public aren't that radical or extreme. Although the Tories definitely given the best attempt to try the absolute patience of their natural supporters this time around.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,005
    Not so long ago I would have jumped for joy at a 15 point lead on the Monday before polling day.

    Now I'm wondering why the gap looks like it is closing.

    Too many outliers and rogue polls for my liking.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Jonathan said:

    Never underestimate the conservatives. Their voters turn out on election day. It’s going to be a hell of a lot closer than hyped polls suggest.

    Do you have a number on that? I'm going to be shocked if the Tories make it to 150 (I'm predicting between 85-115 for now), do you think they might in fact get well above that?
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 580
    On Exit Poll and Postal Votes

    I think I'm right in saying the Exit Poll doesn't factor in Postal Votes at all?

    But Postal Votes are now higher than pre-COVID. Around 20% ish, maybe slightly more?

    If there's a bit of a Tory surge between now and polling day, might the exit poll look slightly better than the actual result? We know a lot of postal votes might have come from a couple of weeks ago, when the Tories seem to have been a bit less popular than they may be on polling day itself?

    I appreciate the exit poll is generally outstanding.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    edited July 1
    John Curtice being very feisty on Newsnight in a debate with Harriet Harman. He didn't used to get involved in this type of thing in previous years.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Never underestimate the conservatives. Their voters turn out on election day. It’s going to be a hell of a lot closer than hyped polls suggest.

    Do you have a number on that? I'm going to be shocked if the Tories make it to 150 (I'm predicting between 85-115 for now), do you think they might in fact get well above that?
    On the 2 polls from Savanta and JL Partners tonight on UNS the Tories would get about 180 seats
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Late Con surge on the cards?

    Why?

    No overall majority is trading at 32. Pretty much the longest it has been all campaign.
    Well obviously there will be a Labour majority (all most certainly a landslide) but it does look as though Con's messaging about the Labour "supermajority" and Lab tax plans might be having some cut through with Con > Ref switchers?
    Not much movement on the seats market. I want to bet on the Tory seats bracket right but am finding it fiendishly difficult to land a prediction.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Andy_JS said:

    John Curtice being very feisty on Newsnight in a debate with Harriet Harman.

    About what?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605

    Not so long ago I would have jumped for joy at a 15 point lead on the Monday before polling day.

    Now I'm wondering why the gap looks like it is closing.

    Too many outliers and rogue polls for my liking.

    People decide in the last week. It could be radically different on the day. Remember that no one expected the 2017 result. Even when the exit poll came out, people didn’t believe it. Check out the thread here.

    Rule 1 of politics, do not underestimate the Tories. Labour generally needs everything going for it to scrape a majority.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,498
    Jonathan said:

    Never underestimate the conservatives. Their voters turn out on election day. It’s going to be a hell of a lot closer than hyped polls suggest.

    I think Labour getting 5% below the polls is more likely than the Tories getting 5% above the polls.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 963

    REF max 8% probably 5%.

    CON heading for 28% maybe 30% but still big majority for LAB

    starting to look that way
    No it isn't ? Based on what?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,292

    On Exit Poll and Postal Votes

    I think I'm right in saying the Exit Poll doesn't factor in Postal Votes at all?

    But Postal Votes are now higher than pre-COVID. Around 20% ish, maybe slightly more?

    If there's a bit of a Tory surge between now and polling day, might the exit poll look slightly better than the actual result? We know a lot of postal votes might have come from a couple of weeks ago, when the Tories seem to have been a bit less popular than they may be on polling day itself?

    I appreciate the exit poll is generally outstanding.

    I just finally got my postal vote today, they appear to have been quite late here in Scotland.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386

    Not so long ago I would have jumped for joy at a 15 point lead on the Monday before polling day.

    Now I'm wondering why the gap looks like it is closing.

    Too many outliers and rogue polls for my liking.

    Relax comrade.
    Four days to a Labour government.
    Just rejoice at that news.
    Rejoice.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487

    Andy_JS said:

    John Curtice being very feisty on Newsnight in a debate with Harriet Harman.

    About what?
    Spending. Back a few minutes if you can access iplayer.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbctwo
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,498
    edited July 1
    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Andy_JS said:

    John Curtice being very feisty on Newsnight in a debate with Harriet Harman.

    About what?
    No doubt she cited a Welsh subsample and he felt moved to step in.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682

    On Exit Poll and Postal Votes

    I think I'm right in saying the Exit Poll doesn't factor in Postal Votes at all?

    But Postal Votes are now higher than pre-COVID. Around 20% ish, maybe slightly more?

    If there's a bit of a Tory surge between now and polling day, might the exit poll look slightly better than the actual result? We know a lot of postal votes might have come from a couple of weeks ago, when the Tories seem to have been a bit less popular than they may be on polling day itself?

    I appreciate the exit poll is generally outstanding.

    Postal votes will mainly be pensioners though who are largely Tory anyway even now. The swing voters are the middle aged who largely vote on the day
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,280
    edited July 1
    Definitely need to bet on Bob Blackman. You can get odds of 4/1 for a coin toss.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited July 1

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    I know the maths shows that you don't need massive samples to get a decent estimate. 1500 in the UK is plenty. However, 2000 seems a very small sample for a country of the size and variation of the US and you would thought you could get more than that for a country of 300 million.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 963

    Ooooh

    What was the last poll reported that has not particularly-adjusted figures in the headline? Seeing some *interesting* trends here at Survation HQ in current fieldwork

    https://x.com/DamianSurvation/status/1807892487551570024

    What does that mean.....like the sentence I don't get it
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,541

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    So the debate could have been a real turning point, not a journalists-who-love-turning-points turning point.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,346
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Reform aren't planning any of that. They're all about immigration.
    They have some insane spending plans.
    They plan to have zero net immigration.

    Reform would crash the economy if elected. Luckily, they will be nowhere near the levers of power.
    I'm not convinced that you have:

    a) Read Reform's economic policy

    b) Would have a clue what would 'crash the economy' if you had.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    So Trump doing no better than he did in 2020, Biden down but lots of undecideds still.

    We wait and see what Trump's sentence is next week and then who his VP is and what the impact of the conventions are.

    Plus if any polls show alternatives to Biden doing any better v Trump
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487

    On Exit Poll and Postal Votes

    I think I'm right in saying the Exit Poll doesn't factor in Postal Votes at all?

    But Postal Votes are now higher than pre-COVID. Around 20% ish, maybe slightly more?

    If there's a bit of a Tory surge between now and polling day, might the exit poll look slightly better than the actual result? We know a lot of postal votes might have come from a couple of weeks ago, when the Tories seem to have been a bit less popular than they may be on polling day itself?

    I appreciate the exit poll is generally outstanding.

    Did you see the links I posted a couple of weeks ago about this subject? Here they are again.

    "People who vote by post are not included in exit polls. This is potentially a source of bias, if the pattern of vote-changing among postal voters differs appreciably from the vote-changing behaviour of those who use a polling station. This does not seem to have been a major problem yet for prediction from exit polls, but if registration to vote by post continues to increase it could become so. For a bit more detail on how postal voting is accounted for, see Sec 2.2 of Curtice and Firth (2008)."

    https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/statistics/staff/academic-research/firth/exit-poll-explainer/


    "2.2. Postal voting

    The problem of selecting polling locations for an exit poll in Britain is long standing, but in 2005 a new problem presented a potentially more fundamental challenge. Exit polls can of course only acquire information from those who actually attend a polling station to vote. If a significant proportion do not vote in person but rather vote, say, by post, then it may no longer be the case that those who vote in person are representative of all those who vote at that station."

    https://academic.oup.com/jrsssa/article/171/3/509/7085116 "
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,541

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Reform aren't planning any of that. They're all about immigration.
    They have some insane spending plans.
    They plan to have zero net immigration.

    Reform would crash the economy if elected. Luckily, they will be nowhere near the levers of power.
    I'm not convinced that you have:

    a) Read Reform's economic policy

    b) Would have a clue what would 'crash the economy' if you had.
    John Mcdonell admitted a Corbyn government would probably crash the economy, at least at first, and Labour voters didn't seem to mind...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    edited July 1

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    carnforth said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Reform aren't planning any of that. They're all about immigration.
    They have some insane spending plans.
    They plan to have zero net immigration.

    Reform would crash the economy if elected. Luckily, they will be nowhere near the levers of power.
    I'm not convinced that you have:

    a) Read Reform's economic policy

    b) Would have a clue what would 'crash the economy' if you had.
    John Mcdonell admitted a Corbyn government would probably crash the economy, at least at first, and Labour voters didn't seem to mind...
    You gotta break a few eggs and all that....
  • Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Question to all PBers: is there any serious suggestion of an exit tax ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Given you need the GDP of a small nation to run a US presidential campaign, it will be the donors that eventually decide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    edited July 1
    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Trump got 47% last time, he is doing not even a percentage point better than he did in 2020.

    Biden is down but about 12% of voters undecided and where they go will decide the election
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 1

    On France, I think it’s foolish of the other parties to form grand and contorted coalitions to thwart the FN. The best strategy is to let them govern. Give them the rope and let them hang themselves. If they’re anything like the populist British right they’ll fragment in no time at all.

    The problem with that idea is that the National Ramblers have been in power at various levels in the French system, already. The days when they instantly bombed out when they got on the local council are decades in the past.
    I don't think RN do actually have much of a track record of government at the regional level or major cities, unlike their FN predecessors who did win some big cities in the South and foundered badly. If the RN do win nationally I think it will be former Gaullists throwing their lot with Le Pen who will have some previous experience in any new government.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    edited July 1
    Thing is, even if these polls weren’t swinging to Trump, Biden should still quit.

    1. You can’t have a senile President
    2. You can’t lie about a President not being senile then when everyone sees that he’s senile say oh it doesn’t matter vote for him anyway, Jill will run the country

    It’s absurd and obscene. Get rid of him
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386
    Skilfully my school has scheduled a parents' evening till 7 on Wednesday.
    And the leavers prom till 8 on GE day.
    Thanks a bunch. Going to get home vote and go to bed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anecdata: conversation with one of my firm's partners this evening, who was slightly Reformy 2 weeks ago, but this evening was shitting a brick over tax: "if you earn over £50k, they're coming for you etc" on pensions, ISAs, capital gains, income tax bands, council tax, inheritance tax and even an "exit" tax if you try and leave the UK to take it with you.

    My guess is he now goes Tory on the day.

    Reform aren't planning any of that. They're all about immigration.
    They have some insane spending plans.
    They plan to have zero net immigration.

    Reform would crash the economy if elected. Luckily, they will be nowhere near the levers of power.
    I'm not convinced that you have:

    a) Read Reform's economic policy

    b) Would have a clue what would 'crash the economy' if you had.
    I've read it. It relies a lot on rather optimistic assumptions around vague savings in government spending which I find suspicious from anyone (unspecified 'reform' or 'savings' is the new magic money tree'), it's a full third of the annualised savings they say they will make, but I cannot say I have sufficient understanding of economics to adequately judge any party pledges on what will improve matters or not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    Leon said:

    Thing is, even if these polls weren’t swinging to Trump, Biden should still quit.

    1. You can’t have a senile President
    2. You can’t lie about a President not being senile then when everyone sees that he’s senile say oh it doesn’t matter vote for him anyway, Jill will run the country

    It’s absurd and obscene. Get rid of him

    Half of the US would prefer Jill to run the country than Trump, even if her husband was in a coma
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    edited July 1
    Latest polling average

    Lab 39.75%
    Con 22.25%
    Ref 15.00%
    LD 11.25%
    Grn 5.25%
    SNP 3.00%

    Those numbers look kind of familiar / similar to ones various people have been posting on here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Trump got 47% last time, he is doing not even a percentage point better than he did in 2020.

    Biden is down but about 12% of voters undecided and where they go will decide the election
    You cannot ask voters to elect a demented President. It is wrong dangerous and stupid on about 100 different levels. Not least - it justifies the GOP doing whatever the fuck they like - they can say Oh well you knew the President was mad and you tried to get him re-elected despite that

    It will absolutely shatter the Democrat brand in time

    And it’s insane in terms of foreign policy. Do you not see this?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    FF43 said:

    On France, I think it’s foolish of the other parties to form grand and contorted coalitions to thwart the FN. The best strategy is to let them govern. Give them the rope and let them hang themselves. If they’re anything like the populist British right they’ll fragment in no time at all.

    The problem with that idea is that the National Ramblers have been in power at various levels in the French system, already. The days when they instantly bombed out when they got on the local council are decades in the past.
    I don't think RN do actually have much of a track record of government at the regional level or major cities, unlike their FN predecessors who did win some big cities in the South and foundered badly. If the RN do win nationally I think it will be former Gaullists throwing their lot with Le Pen who will have some previous experience in any new government.
    Yup, Le Pen can't win without centre right Gaullists backing her in France, Farage can't win here without getting most Tories behind him, Trump can't win in the US without moderate Republicans and fiscally conservative Independents backing him either
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Thing is, even if these polls weren’t swinging to Trump, Biden should still quit.

    1. You can’t have a senile President
    2. You can’t lie about a President not being senile then when everyone sees that he’s senile say oh it doesn’t matter vote for him anyway, Jill will run the country

    It’s absurd and obscene. Get rid of him

    Half of the US would prefer Jill to run the country than Trump, even if her husband was in a coma
    Unfortunately they need that half to be in the right places.

    Why oh why didn't a million liberal Californians move to the swing states after 2020?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,292
    edited July 1
    Jonathan said:

    Not so long ago I would have jumped for joy at a 15 point lead on the Monday before polling day.

    Now I'm wondering why the gap looks like it is closing.

    Too many outliers and rogue polls for my liking.

    People decide in the last week. It could be radically different on the day. Remember that no one expected the 2017 result. Even when the exit poll came out, people didn’t believe it. Check out the thread here.

    Rule 1 of politics, do not underestimate the Tories. Labour generally needs everything going for it to scrape a majority.
    The 2015 GE was the first one I finally dipped my toes in the water and decided to bet on, I just had a gut feeling that the polls were underestimating the Tories, so I bet on them gaining a majority. But I had the exact opposite feeling in 2017, I thought it was a huge mistake for May to call that GE when she did so I avoided betting on the outcome and just concentrated on Scottish constituency bets which gave me a healthy profit.

    This time I have been a bit surprised that Reform has not had a bigger impact on the Labour vote share in the polls after Farage became Reform Leader and entered the GE race, particular in the Red wall. Many of those former Labour voters in the Red wall who voted for Boris in 2019 seem to have done so via switching to Farage/UKIP first in previous few years, and I cannot see a Keir Starmer Labour government setting the heather on fire in some of those seats and getting the vote out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Trump got 47% last time, he is doing not even a percentage point better than he did in 2020.

    Biden is down but about 12% of voters undecided and where they go will decide the election
    You cannot ask voters to elect a demented President. It is wrong dangerous and stupid on about 100 different levels. Not least - it justifies the GOP doing whatever the fuck they like - they can say Oh well you knew the President was mad and you tried to get him re-elected despite that

    It will absolutely shatter the Democrat brand in time

    And it’s insane in terms of foreign policy. Do you not see this?
    If Haley, who is pro Zelensky and tough on Beijing and NK was GOP nominee maybe.

    Trump however is pally with Putin, pals with Jong Un and has never met a dictator he didn't like
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Thing is, even if these polls weren’t swinging to Trump, Biden should still quit.

    1. You can’t have a senile President
    2. You can’t lie about a President not being senile then when everyone sees that he’s senile say oh it doesn’t matter vote for him anyway, Jill will run the country

    It’s absurd and obscene. Get rid of him

    Half of the US would prefer Jill to run the country than Trump, even if her husband was in a coma
    And then the republicans can say So you deceived the entire American people and the President was elected on a fraudulent basis - unconstitutional, he’s unfit for office - so we’re just going to ignore the election and/or challenge it in SCOTUS

    You’re really setting up the civil war there
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Andy_JS said:

    Latest polling average

    Lab 39.75%
    Con 22.25%
    Ref 15.00%
    LD 11.25%
    Grn 5.25%
    SNP 3.00%

    Those numbers look kind of familiar / similar to ones various people have been posting on here.

    Under 40 feels like it would be disappointingly low for Labour after all the hullaballo, but obviously more than adequate versus the split opposition.

    I last predicted Reform over the LDs by about 5, and that still seems possible - I think the LDs will struggle to get into the teens, whilst Reform will be disappointed to drop out of them.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Given you need the GDP of a small nation to run a US presidential campaign, it will be the donors that eventually decide.
    Disagree. Dem donors are mainly motivated by the need to beat Trump. They may have opinions that might affect Biden's decision at the margin but ultimately most of the people who were going to donate will donate whoever the candidate is.

    It's not like a primary campaign where you spend whatever you have early in the hope of building up momentum and then if the donors switch to somebody else you have no option but to shut everything down.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    edited July 1
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Thing is, even if these polls weren’t swinging to Trump, Biden should still quit.

    1. You can’t have a senile President
    2. You can’t lie about a President not being senile then when everyone sees that he’s senile say oh it doesn’t matter vote for him anyway, Jill will run the country

    It’s absurd and obscene. Get rid of him

    Half of the US would prefer Jill to run the country than Trump, even if her husband was in a coma
    And then the republicans can say So you deceived the entire American people and the President was elected on a fraudulent basis - unconstitutional, he’s unfit for office - so we’re just going to ignore the election and/or challenge it in SCOTUS

    You’re really setting up the civil war there
    Well the GOP could have nominated Haley, who most Democrats would have grudgingly accepted had she won and would likely easily have beaten Biden and got well over 50%.

    Yet no, they had to nominate the most divisive candidate in their party's history a third time even after his supporters stormed Congress 3 years ago. So if the US is near civil war the GOP are just as responsible
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Trump got 47% last time, he is doing not even a percentage point better than he did in 2020.

    Biden is down but about 12% of voters undecided and where they go will decide the election
    You cannot ask voters to elect a demented President. It is wrong dangerous and stupid on about 100 different levels. Not least - it justifies the GOP doing whatever the fuck they like - they can say Oh well you knew the President was mad and you tried to get him re-elected despite that

    It will absolutely shatter the Democrat brand in time

    And it’s insane in terms of foreign policy. Do you not see this?
    If Haley, who is pro Zelensky and tough on Beijing and NK was GOP nominee maybe.

    Trump however is pally with Putin, pals with Jong Un and has never met a dictator he didn't like
    What actually happened under Trump? No wars - that’s what happened

    Under Biden, lots of wars. And as Biden’s faculties decline further?

    Trump is a dangerous loon but a demented Biden is arguably even more dangerous plus Biden will lose anyway

    The only choice for the Dems is to accept they fucked up - massively - kick out Demented Joe and have a brokered convention. Let democracy decide
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,336
    edited July 1
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    On France, I think it’s foolish of the other parties to form grand and contorted coalitions to thwart the FN. The best strategy is to let them govern. Give them the rope and let them hang themselves. If they’re anything like the populist British right they’ll fragment in no time at all.

    The problem with that idea is that the National Ramblers have been in power at various levels in the French system, already. The days when they instantly bombed out when they got on the local council are decades in the past.
    I don't think RN do actually have much of a track record of government at the regional level or major cities, unlike their FN predecessors who did win some big cities in the South and foundered badly. If the RN do win nationally I think it will be former Gaullists throwing their lot with Le Pen who will have some previous experience in any new government.
    Yup, Le Pen can't win without centre right Gaullists backing her in France, Farage can't win here without getting most Tories behind him, Trump can't win in the US without moderate Republicans and fiscally conservative Independents backing him either
    Any paragraph that says the triumvirate of Le Pen, Farage and Trump can't win is music to my ears.
    I ignored the other words.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    Will Rishi be relaxing at Wimbledon on Friday? If he's a tennis fan, probably yes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386
    edited July 1
    Farooq said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not so long ago I would have jumped for joy at a 15 point lead on the Monday before polling day.

    Now I'm wondering why the gap looks like it is closing.

    Too many outliers and rogue polls for my liking.

    People decide in the last week. It could be radically different on the day. Remember that no one expected the 2017 result. Even when the exit poll came out, people didn’t believe it. Check out the thread here.

    Rule 1 of politics, do not underestimate the Tories. Labour generally needs everything going for it to scrape a majority.
    Wasn't the problem of 2017 people overestimating the Tories?
    No. It was vastly underestimating the 40% Labour share.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    ...

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't know the result but please tell me Raducanu won her match.

    Can’t you just google it?
    Why not just ask Goodwin? He has all the answers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    I despair of America. They really are hurtling towards civil war
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    https://x.com/politics_polls/status/1807896620069257494

    2024 National GE:

    Trump 47% (+6)
    Biden 41%

    @Harvard/@Harris_X_/@HarrisPoll, 2,090 RV, 6/28-30

    That’s a mahoosive shift in this context. In fact I’m calling it a mahoohoohohoohoohohoosive shift and it’s not often I say that

    Surely this is it for Biden. A crushing defeat TO DONALD TRUMP is staring the Dems in the face. Biden has to go. If he won’t jump, push
    Trump got 47% last time, he is doing not even a percentage point better than he did in 2020.

    Biden is down but about 12% of voters undecided and where they go will decide the election
    You cannot ask voters to elect a demented President. It is wrong dangerous and stupid on about 100 different levels. Not least - it justifies the GOP doing whatever the fuck they like - they can say Oh well you knew the President was mad and you tried to get him re-elected despite that

    It will absolutely shatter the Democrat brand in time

    And it’s insane in terms of foreign policy. Do you not see this?
    If Haley, who is pro Zelensky and tough on Beijing and NK was GOP nominee maybe.

    Trump however is pally with Putin, pals with Jong Un and has never met a dictator he didn't like
    What actually happened under Trump? No wars - that’s what happened

    Under Biden, lots of wars. And as Biden’s faculties decline further?

    Trump is a dangerous loon but a demented Biden is arguably even more dangerous plus Biden will lose anyway

    The only choice for the Dems is to accept they fucked up - massively - kick out Demented Joe and have a brokered convention. Let democracy decide
    In what way is a brokered convention democracy?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Farooq said:

    "were things really that bad under the guy who ACTUALLY TRIED TO END AMERICAN DEMOCRACY?"

    Makes you think

    The problem is as crazy as that statement is, the vanishingly few 'independents' in the US may go for it!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Andy_JS said:

    Will Rishi be relaxing at Wimbledon on Friday? If he's a tennis fan, probably yes.

    What the under / over on months before Rishi steps down from his seat (assuming he manages to hold it on Thursday)?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,487
    edited July 1
    Leon said:

    Thing is, even if these polls weren’t swinging to Trump, Biden should still quit.

    1. You can’t have a senile President
    2. You can’t lie about a President not being senile then when everyone sees that he’s senile say oh it doesn’t matter vote for him anyway, Jill will run the country

    It’s absurd and obscene. Get rid of him

    The problem is the ridiculous "Won't back down" attitude that's so popular in the United States, even when it's obvious to everyone that you should.
This discussion has been closed.