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Unite the right – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited July 4 in General
Unite the right – politicalbetting.com

The Tories are unlikely to attract many Reform UK voters given… – Only 36% would vote Tory if a Reform UK candidate wasn't standing – 61% are voting Reform despite thinking they won't win in their seat – 75% say the Tories and Labour are as bad as each other – 74-76%… pic.twitter.com/P7UpQvMAfJ

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Comments

  • First, maybe?
  • First, maybe?

    Hell yeah!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928

    First, maybe?

    Hell yeah!
    Congratulations. You must feel very proud.

    :D
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    twistedfirestopper3 is first!!
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Euros.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited June 15
    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    A Man For All Seasons on BBC2 is looking better.

    Wonderful cinematography and direction, and the country in 1966 and 1967 visible through the period setting.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    edited June 15

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
    Also King’s birthday.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Football is on the telly. And will be for what’s left of the campaign.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    kinabalu said:

    twistedfirestopper3 is first!!

    What a guy!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited June 15
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
    Also King’s birthday.
    Even so, the Mail website for instance you have to scroll miles and miles past stories of missing students, dodgy sandwiches, stories about bank of mum and day, and the footy, before you get to an GE coverage. Its pretty much anything but talk about the GE.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited June 15
    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Ed Davey tackles the jumpy pillow.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
    Also King’s birthday.
    Even so, the Mail website for instance you have to scroll miles and miles past stories of missing students, dodgy sandwiches, stories about bank of mum and day, and the footy, before you get to an GE coverage. Its pretty much anything but talk about the GE.
    Probably doesn't help that the Big Two are sliding in the polls.
    It's eleven men behind the ball for Labour.
    For the Tories. Everything they say or do is ridiculed. So they may as well shut up.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    And twistedfirestopper3 is first !!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Not many folk own entire avenues.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Not many folk own entire avenues.
    As long as they aren’t charging CGT on my main avenue…
  • The fact that it seems like a foregone conclusion can't be helping. The manifestos are all a bit meh and there's been no new gotcha moments. Plus the footie has started.
    We need Davey to bungy jump naked off Tower Bridge or something.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    twistedfirestopper3 is first!!

    I've had a long discussion with my wife, and she's helped me to see that @twistedfirestopper3 is not, in fact, first.
    As per @BartholomewRoberts I have REALLOCATED the first claimed by @twistedfirestopper3 and - to my surprise, quite frankly - it turns out the first is mine
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited June 15
    Nigelb said:

    Ed Davey tackles the jumpy pillow.

    Still waiting for riding the roof of a train, jumping a load of cars in a monster truck and parachuting from a helicopter.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
    Also King’s birthday.
    Even so, the Mail website for instance you have to scroll miles and miles past stories of missing students, dodgy sandwiches, stories about bank of mum and day, and the footy, before you get to an GE coverage. Its pretty much anything but talk about the GE.
    Probably doesn't help that the Big Two are sliding in the polls.
    It's eleven men behind the ball for Labour.
    For the Tories. Everything they say or do is ridiculed. So they may as well shut up.
    Manifestos are out, candidates established, debates and interviews done. Much of the nation’s attention has shifted elsewhere and is probably glad of the break.

    The spotlight will return as the day approaches - I guess kicked off by the BBC’s head-to-head the week before.
  • Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    twistedfirestopper3 is first!!

    I've had a long discussion with my wife, and she's helped me to see that @twistedfirestopper3 is not, in fact, first.
    My wife is never in doubt that I always come first.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    A Man For All Seasons on BBC2 is looking better.

    Wonderful cinematography and direction, and the country in 1966 and 1967 visible through the period setting.
    That was the first film I saw at the cinema.
  • po8crgpo8crg Posts: 27
    edited June 15
    What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?

    They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.

    If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
    Also King’s birthday.
    Even so, the Mail website for instance you have to scroll miles and miles past stories of missing students, dodgy sandwiches, stories about bank of mum and day, and the footy, before you get to an GE coverage. Its pretty much anything but talk about the GE.
    Probably doesn't help that the Big Two are sliding in the polls.
    It's eleven men behind the ball for Labour.
    For the Tories. Everything they say or do is ridiculed. So they may as well shut up.
    They have definitely shut up about things like national service. Its seems to now be core vote of core vote stuff, stop a super majority, Labour will tax you more.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Starmer has been campaigning today, but Sunak is abroad at a big conference on Ukraine.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    A Man For All Seasons on BBC2 is looking better.

    Wonderful cinematography and direction, and the country in 1966 and 1967 visible through the period setting.
    That was the first film I saw at the cinema.
    What was the experience like ?

    I remember my first film too.
  • Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ed Davey tackles the jumpy pillow.

    Still waiting for riding the roof of a train, jumping a load of cars in a monster truck and parachuting from a helicopter.
    Parachuting from a helicopter is easy. It's parachuting onto one that's really fun.
    Could be quite choppy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    pigeon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Starmer has been campaigning today, but Sunak is abroad at a big conference on Ukraine.
    Well it must have been his body double at the Trooping of the Colour....poor lad got pissed on again.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13533265/trooping-colour-rishi-sunak-wife-akshata-murty-soaked-rain.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Euros and this.

    Inside ‘zombie party’ Tory HQ, where blame game has already begun

    ‘People don’t quite appreciate how dire things are,’ one insider says as the Conservatives reel from D-Day fiasco and a poll showing Reform has overtaken them


    On Thursday afternoon Akshata Murty, the prime minister’s wife, paid a visit to Conservative campaign headquarters in an attempt to lift spirits. Accompanied by the Sunaks’ dog, Nova, she handed out cookies to staffers, telling them that 3pm was usually when her husband needed a sugar hit.

    By all accounts, they need it. The atmosphere in CCHQ is bleak. Ever since Sunak’s “spectacular” own goal over D-Day the energy levels have dropped, with the atmosphere described by one staffer as one of “quiet desperation”.

    The source said: “The first ten days were manic chaos, which is often the way during the early stages of the campaign. There was a decent amount of energy. But since the D-Day fiasco it’s become a mood of just quiet desperation.”

    The trouble is that for the Tories it appears to be getting worse. On Tuesday, Sunak launched his manifesto at Silverstone, an event that went off — unusually for this particular Tory campaign — without a hitch.

    The prime minister pledged to introduce £17 billion worth of tax cuts, funded with a crackdown on tax avoidance and evasion and an overhaul of the welfare system. But for all the fanfare and fiscal firepower, there has so far been no evidence that it is cutting through.

    On Thursday night, half an hour before the latest seven-way televised leadership debate, The Times published a poll from YouGov. It showed that, for the first time, Reform was polling above the Tories.

    Although Reform’s lead over the Tories, by one point at 19 per cent, is well within the margin of error, it hit morale hard. The fear inside CCHQ is that the Tories could be on the cusp of a generational pummelling.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/inside-zombie-party-tory-hq-where-blame-game-has-already-begun-cltc5rjsk
  • lockhimuplockhimup Posts: 59

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Has Sunak ruled out lowering the higher rate tax threshold by another 30% in real terms?

    Seem to remember something about it going up to 80k in the 2019 campaign.

    Also has Sunak ruled out lowering the capital gains allowance by a further 75%?

    That's already costing a couple selling a second property over £5000 in extra tax

    Seem to remember that not being mentioned in 2019

    Keep voting for the people who actually raise taxes and they'll keep actually raising taxes.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    po8crg said:

    What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?

    They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.

    If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?

    It won’t be Chalk. And he will be losing to the Libs anyway sadly.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Starmer has been campaigning today, but Sunak is abroad at a big conference on Ukraine.
    Well it must have been his body double at the Trooping of the Colour....poor lad got pissed on again.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13533265/trooping-colour-rishi-sunak-wife-akshata-murty-soaked-rain.html
    My bad. I didn't see most of that event earlier, so missed him huddled in the stands. He is off to Switzerland today, however.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    DM_Andy said:

    I'll spend my one image today on the latest Ed Davey


    Mr Tumble's let himself go.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    boulay said:

    po8crg said:

    What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?

    They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.

    If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?

    It won’t be Chalk. And he will be losing to the Libs anyway sadly.
    I'd Imagine any arrangement cooked up before nominations closed but not disclosed would in any case attract the attention of the authorities, entering a nomination under false pretences
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    DM_Andy said:

    I'll spend my one image today on the latest Ed Davey

    He is going to be bloody knackered after 6 weeks of this.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,324
    FPT

    Since I seem to be preoccupied with the Yellows today, I may as well mention that Sporting have tweaked the spread on their seat numbers up to 53-57. I wouldn't buy or sell at that level, but I do think it is inconsistent with the Betfair market on Most Seats Without Labour, where the LDs are available at 4.5 (7/2 in old money.)

    That looks like a back to me, but I may be talking my own book a bit.

    Thoughts anyone?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Opinium for Observer should surely show movement from a week ago

    Lab lead up as it was 18 a week ago

    Could be Lab and Tory down I suppose as they were 42/24 last time
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    FPT

    Since I seem to be preoccupied with the Yellows today, I may as well mention that Sporting have tweaked the spread on their seat numbers up to 53-57. I wouldn't buy or sell at that level, but I do think it is inconsistent with the Betfair market on Most Seats Without Labour, where the LDs are available at 4.5 (7/2 in old money.)

    That looks like a back to me, but I may be talking my own book a bit.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Looks sound to me.

    I am writing a thread about the spreads as we speak.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    lockhimup said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Has Sunak ruled out lowering the higher rate tax threshold by another 30% in real terms?

    Seem to remember something about it going up to 80k in the 2019 campaign.

    Also has Sunak ruled out lowering the capital gains allowance by a further 75%?

    That's already costing a couple selling a second property over £5000 in extra tax

    Seem to remember that not being mentioned in 2019

    Keep voting for the people who actually raise taxes and they'll keep actually raising taxes.
    They didn't mention covid or Ukraine in the 2019 campaign either.

    You had the spending now you have to pay the tax.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    DM_Andy said:

    I'll spend my one image today on the latest Ed Davey

    He is going to be bloody knackered after 6 weeks of this.
    If he gets to come back to Parliament as Leader of the Opposition then I doubt he'll be complaining.
  • po8crgpo8crg Posts: 27

    DM_Andy said:

    I'll spend my one image today on the latest Ed Davey

    He is going to be bloody knackered after 6 weeks of this.
    This is one reason why a slightly slower timetable for coalition negotiations should apply in this country, and we should plan for how to run a caretaker government. All the people involved in the negotiations in 2010 had been running on 4-5 hours sleep for six weeks and then plunged immediately into high-stakes negotiations. No wonder there were so many things in that Coalition deal that the parties regretted afterwards.

    Just give everyone a week off before anything starts - the Irish system of making the count take forever works for them; all but a few candidates know their personal outcome and can just have a rest. Can't start any coalition negotiations until you have final numbers for the parties, so everyone holes up at home and catches up on sleep.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    FPT

    I think the crucial point was that the gambler and his assistant contrived the situation so that they had an edge, rather than the house, in what was otherwise a game of chance. They were not merely passively observing the cards (which would be the case with card-counting, another technique which casinos have to watch out for but which, I believe, is lawful.)

    I assume PBers are familiar with the book (or the movie) 21, the tale of a group of MIT students who took millions in Vegas and Atlantic City by counting cards as a team.

    They are part of the reason casinos now use continuous shuffle
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    lockhimup said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Has Sunak ruled out lowering the higher rate tax threshold by another 30% in real terms?

    Seem to remember something about it going up to 80k in the 2019 campaign.

    Also has Sunak ruled out lowering the capital gains allowance by a further 75%?

    That's already costing a couple selling a second property over £5000 in extra tax

    Seem to remember that not being mentioned in 2019

    Keep voting for the people who actually raise taxes and they'll keep actually raising taxes.
    They didn't mention covid or Ukraine in the 2019 campaign either.

    You had the spending now you have to pay the tax.
    Or, indeed, the tax we didn't pay during the Blair-Brown years because nice stuff was procured via PFI. Or during the Major-Thatcher years becasue privatisation windfalls were used for ongoing spending.

    Or the tax we didn't pay for decades because a large number of workers were paying for a small number of pensioners.

    Some of that is true across the West- especially the worker/pensioner thing. But some of it is because, for decades now, we have voted for spuriously low taxes. The 1st Earl of Stockton had something to say about that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    A Man For All Seasons on BBC2 is looking better.

    Wonderful cinematography and direction, and the country in 1966 and 1967 visible through the period setting.
    That was the first film I saw at the cinema.
    What was the experience like ?

    I remember my first film too.
    I remember it mainly for the fact my dad took me. Bit of aspirational parenting, I think, because it's quite a serious film for a 6 year old ... ah no, I was more like 9 and this came out in 1966 so it can't have been this film. It must have been the 1970 film, Cromwell. Yes that's more like it. He also took me to Live And Let Die.

    What was yours then?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "Journalists Shouldn’t Depend on the State for Their Wages
    More than a third of many Canadian journalists’ salaries are now effectively being paid by Justin Trudeau’s government—an arrangement that’s created an obvious conflict of interest.
    Jonathan Kay"

    https://quillette.com/2024/06/14/governments-shouldnt-be-paying-journalists-salaries/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    Andy_JS said:

    "Journalists Shouldn’t Depend on the State for Their Wages
    More than a third of many Canadian journalists’ salaries are now effectively being paid by Justin Trudeau’s government—an arrangement that’s created an obvious conflict of interest.
    Jonathan Kay"

    https://quillette.com/2024/06/14/governments-shouldnt-be-paying-journalists-salaries/

    Quite right, everyone knows that they should be paid by foreign malevolent media baron billionaires who pay for both the journalists and politicians.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Antonio Rudiger is now Scotland’s joint top scorer in tournament football in the last 25 years. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇩🇪

    https://x.com/Football__Tweet/status/1801722411085402353
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    dixiedean said:

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
    Only to be expected, considering the Red Wall was traditionally Labour seats won by the Tories in 2019. Not the kind of seats that are going to be won by anyone but Labour, if the Tory vote is shared equally between the Tories and Farage.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Assume you’ll be betting the farm on the generous odds widely available on NOM then William?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    Euros and this.

    Inside ‘zombie party’ Tory HQ, where blame game has already begun

    ‘People don’t quite appreciate how dire things are,’ one insider says as the Conservatives reel from D-Day fiasco and a poll showing Reform has overtaken them


    On Thursday afternoon Akshata Murty, the prime minister’s wife, paid a visit to Conservative campaign headquarters in an attempt to lift spirits. Accompanied by the Sunaks’ dog, Nova, she handed out cookies to staffers, telling them that 3pm was usually when her husband needed a sugar hit.

    By all accounts, they need it. The atmosphere in CCHQ is bleak. Ever since Sunak’s “spectacular” own goal over D-Day the energy levels have dropped, with the atmosphere described by one staffer as one of “quiet desperation”.

    The source said: “The first ten days were manic chaos, which is often the way during the early stages of the campaign. There was a decent amount of energy. But since the D-Day fiasco it’s become a mood of just quiet desperation.”

    The trouble is that for the Tories it appears to be getting worse. On Tuesday, Sunak launched his manifesto at Silverstone, an event that went off — unusually for this particular Tory campaign — without a hitch.

    The prime minister pledged to introduce £17 billion worth of tax cuts, funded with a crackdown on tax avoidance and evasion and an overhaul of the welfare system. But for all the fanfare and fiscal firepower, there has so far been no evidence that it is cutting through.

    On Thursday night, half an hour before the latest seven-way televised leadership debate, The Times published a poll from YouGov. It showed that, for the first time, Reform was polling above the Tories.

    Although Reform’s lead over the Tories, by one point at 19 per cent, is well within the margin of error, it hit morale hard. The fear inside CCHQ is that the Tories could be on the cusp of a generational pummelling.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/inside-zombie-party-tory-hq-where-blame-game-has-already-begun-cltc5rjsk
    Here's the bit that struck me from that article;

    With money running short, the source said, there was a trickier conversation — where to spend it. The definition of a marginal is changing. The original plan, and expenditure on the back of it, was to pursue an “80-20” strategy — defending the 80 most marginal constituencies and attempting to pick up 20 gains.

    There is now a discussion about whether the money would be better spent on seats that were previously considered safe, with majorities of between 10,000 and 20,000. A decision is expected next week.


    OK, pretty rational, try to build a firebreak. A 10k majority is about a ten percent swing to overturn. (Sorry- just noticed that. Probably obvious to everyone else. I suppose with a total vote of 50k it would have to be.) Places like Macclesfield. It bakes in 120 losses or so before the election even starts, takes the Conservatives down to 250 at best, which I'm sure they would be massively relived by.

    Defending a twenty percent swing is around about 275 losses, 100 Conservative MPs left. Places like Chichester and Romford are falling. Is that the right band to try and fight the last stand?

    And how, in the name of all that is good and right-wing, is the Conservative "most sucessful electoral machine in the world" Party thinking about this now, with a decision next Trussing week?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Scott_xP said:

    Going to have to use my photo allocation for this...

    @JohnRentoul

    Spectacular photo of John Curtice from 1992

    That look in the eye says, "I was spot on."
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited June 15
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    A Man For All Seasons on BBC2 is looking better.

    Wonderful cinematography and direction, and the country in 1966 and 1967 visible through the period setting.
    That was the first film I saw at the cinema.
    What was the experience like ?

    I remember my first film too.
    I remember it mainly for the fact my dad took me. Bit of aspirational parenting, I think, because it's quite a serious film for a 6 year old ... ah no, I was more like 9 and this came out in 1966 so it can't have been this film. It must have been the 1970 film, Cromwell. Yes that's more like it. He also took me to Live And Let Die.

    What was yours then?
    Not much later, it must have been Diamonds Are Forever, which I don't know how my parents got me into.

    My main memory was my fascination with Jill St. John's bra, and amusement at the Russian baddies. One of the louchest and most offbeat of Bond films, as I remember; ;goofy humour, slow and languid scenes, and leopardprint sofas ; 1970's Las Vegas.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,941

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    dixiedean said:

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
    Very white, very Leave, relatively poor - these would be the criteria for Reform seat targeting, I'd have thought.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited June 15
    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing

    Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited June 15
    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    My calculation is very different. I don’t have much in the way of assets - just some shares, a flat, ISAs. I’m certainly not POOR but I’m probably not in seven figures - mainly because despite earning loads of money I have also spent loads of money. I have had an absolute blast. I don’t regret it - what is money for?!

    However I am still earning nicely and can expect to do so for a few years yet. So I want to protect my income. I’m done with giving 40-50% of that income to a country which spunks it on rubbish public services, endless woke nonsense, a declining civic realm, asylum seekers in hotels, a migrant incoming every minute, and then coolly regards me as a toxic cis-het white male who should be at the back of every queue

    I’ve paid a lot of tax to HMRC. They’ve got more out of me than I ever got from them

    But I’m not paying any more to UK PLC, and certainly not under Labour
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130
    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    What if the new regime were to bring the CGT rates in to line with income tax, so (roughly) 0 for disposals in a year up to 12.5K, 20% on the 12.5 to 50K part and 40% above that -- would that change your calculations? I guess it depends whether your capital gain is in a single asset (like those business owners cashing out) or if it's in investments you'd be happy holding for the longer term and gradually drawing down as income.

    My guess is most would not be in the "making an immediate one off seven figure capital gain in a single year" boat.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892

    Antonio Rudiger is now Scotland’s joint top scorer in tournament football in the last 25 years. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇩🇪

    https://x.com/Football__Tweet/status/1801722411085402353

    On which note, I've backed Harry Kane to be tournament top scorer aka golden boot at 11/2 since England has some very easy games lined up and Kane scores most of ours. Mind you, all the top nations have easy games, as witnessed last night. DYOR etc.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    Oh, and for those wondering about the timeframe for postal votes, mine has just landed. (Like Jack Hargreaves, I am Out Of Town that day).

    It's all over bar a bit of shouting, isn't it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    Because he wants to scrap the concept of CGT, and will instead treat capital gains as income for tax purposes?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,941
    eek said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing

    Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
    What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?

    The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.

    When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.

    I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.

    As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.

    And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
    The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
    George Harrison songs to be most streamed on Spotify please.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
    Very white, very Leave, relatively poor - these would be the criteria for Reform seat targeting, I'd have thought.
    This kind of projection demonstrates how models like Electoral Calculus break down if fed very extreme inputs. Most of Eastern England, certain run down coastal areas notwithstanding, is categorically not poor, and vast swathes of it going Farageiste even with RefUK on a quarter of the popular vote are implausible.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited June 15
    The large slash to the CGT threshold reminds you how un-Conservative the government has been the past few years. Its down to £3k now. It is so low, totally removing it won't really be a big deal politically.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    OT but relevant to political awareness, and our recent discussion about how many times to run adverts so everyone sees them...

    Someone today posted this question to reddit:-

    Does anyone know why so many planes were flying in different formations over London/stratford? We saw a British airways plane with two small ones accompanying it, then another big passenger plane with two small ones, then three little green planes, then 5 red planes flying in an arrow shape? Just curious what is going on?
    https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/1dggk6s/whats_up_with_the_planes_flying_over_stratford/
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
    The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
    At what marginal rate?

    The top 1% of earners have more than 30% of total income
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    *checks weather in London*

    It’s 15C, cloudy, with a raw wind. Like late March but it’s mid June

    What rich person with mobility is gonna stick around for that PLUS hefty Labour taxes and 1m migrants every 2 months?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    I’m just not sure you can extrapolate likely REF seats from Baxter if they were to get into the mid 20s, say. The point is that REF will have built a sizeable voter coalition at that point, and the places it breaks through will be the ones where that coalition is strongest. If it is mainly dissatisfied traditional Tory voters then the shires come into play, but if it takes a large part of it from 2019 new Tory voters and some white working class Labour switchers then the red wall comes into play.

    It is really, really tough to forecast Reform seats on that basis, beyond what I will say are the “easiest three” - Clacton, Ashfield and Boston and Skegness.
  • NovoNovo Posts: 60
    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
    Very white, very Leave, relatively poor - these would be the criteria for Reform seat targeting, I'd have thought.
    This kind of projection demonstrates how models like Electoral Calculus break down if fed very extreme inputs. Most of Eastern England, certain run down coastal areas notwithstanding, is categorically not poor, and vast swathes of it going Farageiste even with RefUK on a quarter of the popular vote are implausible.
    Sounds depressingly like the old British National Front!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited June 15
    Andy_JS said:

    "Journalists Shouldn’t Depend on the State for Their Wages
    More than a third of many Canadian journalists’ salaries are now effectively being paid by Justin Trudeau’s government—an arrangement that’s created an obvious conflict of interest.
    Jonathan Kay"

    https://quillette.com/2024/06/14/governments-shouldnt-be-paying-journalists-salaries/

    Aren't quite a few UK journalists also effectively paid by the state, or at least through the BBC licence fee which some of us consider a tax? That was very much a Conservative policy, IIRC.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited June 15
    The difficulty every government has to contend with is the world is now much more globalised, in the West lots of rich people own businesses that aren't physical anymore e.g. factories, they run service businesses or importing items from China and sell via e-commerce, which can be all be run (semi) remotely.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
    The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
    The underlying problem is the differential rates between income tax and CGT in the first place, which allows entrepreneurs and an awful lot of self-designated, self-employed people to avoid income tax (see also IR35). Whether this can be fixed without short-term pain is beyond me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    The difficulty every government has to contend with is the world is now much more globalised, in the West lots of rich people own businesses that aren't physical anymore e.g. factories, they run service businesses or importing items from China and sell via e-commerce, which can be all be run (semi) remotely.

    Yes. And Britain’s offering is much less attractive than it used to be

    We really are in a pickle
  • po8crg said:

    What do Alex Chalk, Mims Davies, Neil Hudson and Chris Loder have in common?

    They're the only Tory MPs who don't have a Reform or Reform-endorsed SDP (there are some local deals where Reform endorsed SDP candidates) candidate running against them.

    If Farage were to drop a bombshell that one of those four had defected to Reform during the campaign and they'd deliberately not run a candidate in that constituency so they could endorse him, which one do you think it would be and can anyone find a market for defections?

    Mr Loder might well be the only Conservative MP ever to have been a member of the RMT.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited June 15

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
    The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
    The underlying problem is the differential rates between income tax and CGT in the first place, which allows entrepreneurs and an awful lot of self-designated, self-employed people to avoid income tax (see also IR35). Whether this can be fixed without short-term pain is beyond me.
    If Labour go really hard at self employed individual traders, the media are going to scream from the roof tops. Remember when Hammond proposing taxing their NI a bit more, its was wall to wall, end of days stuff until he U-Turned. So many of the media make a nice extra £50k+ a year on the side from leveraging their brand.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,941
    pm215 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    What if the new regime were to bring the CGT rates in to line with income tax, so (roughly) 0 for disposals in a year up to 12.5K, 20% on the 12.5 to 50K part and 40% above that -- would that change your calculations? I guess it depends whether your capital gain is in a single asset (like those business owners cashing out) or if it's in investments you'd be happy holding for the longer term and gradually drawing down as income.

    My guess is most would not be in the "making an immediate one off seven figure capital gain in a single year" boat.
    Imagine, for example, buying 10k of nvda in 2014 for $0.48 and still having it 10 years later now it's trading around $130. You would have approx £1m in unrealized gains and, most likely, a very unbalanced portfolio you were seeking to de risk, especially if you think tech/AI stocks are in a bubble. So quite possible you would want to sell the whole lot in one go.

    I have considered my options re my own portfolio and "derisking the lot into old-man dividend stocks asap" is the right answer for me.

    Ultimately the potential switch from 20% to 40% tax isn't just a tax rise, it's a huge shock that will have a major impact on people's behaviour. If (when) the government suddenly implements a tax change that makes it cheaper for me to take a five year holiday than carry on working and paying tax in the UK, the laffer curve is well and truly in effect here and tax take will be down.


  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Off topic, but entertaining -- especially for your visitors from St. Petersburg: This morning I ran across this collection at Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_political_jokes

    There are a few that I hadn’t heard before. And, for some reason, it doesn’t include one of my favorites:

    A Russian gets drunk and begins marching around Red Square, shouting, “Putin is a madman, Putin is a madman.”

    Naturally he is arrested, given a quick trial, and sentenced to eleven years in the Gulag.

    Why eleven years? One year for insulting Russia’s leader, ten years for revealing a state secret.

    Many years ago, I heard a slightly different version of the joke (fool instead of madman) told about Khrushchev.

    (Cross posted at Patterico's.)
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
    Very white, very Leave, relatively poor - these would be the criteria for Reform seat targeting, I'd have thought.
    The central mystery/paradox of UKIP and Reform. It's an alliance of the properly left behind, and those who have been left behind in the golf club bar because they are so boring. The poor and the very rich.

    When push comes to shove, only one part of that alliance can win.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    but most people have no capital gains to tax. It's like the parent's crying about VAT on private school, not enough of you to matter.
    The top 1% of Britons in income pay 30% of the tax. I believe. Be very careful what you wish for
    The underlying problem is the differential rates between income tax and CGT in the first place, which allows entrepreneurs and an awful lot of self-designated, self-employed people to avoid income tax (see also IR35). Whether this can be fixed without short-term pain is beyond me.
    I don’t have the figures to hand but the rate of tax on dividends isn’t much different to PAYE. I think there are a few savings in the first £50,000 but after that corporation tax and dividends are taxed slightly higher than Paye
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    The other easy for government to go after which 99% of the population won't care about is going after entrepreneurial CGT relief on their first business sale. Its already been cut massively. The knock-off effects will only be felt way down the line.
  • dixiedean said:

    If the current trends continue, a result like this isn't out of the question, however it would only take a swing of a further 2% to Reform to wipe out the Labour majority entirely so it would be very volatile.

    image

    Notable where almost all those Reform seats are.
    Not in the Red Wall as repeatedly asserted.
    Thats mr Baxters projection, not necessarily reality.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Suggests the tactical vote shuffle is definitely on. What happens with Reform/Con very key now!
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    kyf_100 said:

    eek said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Starmer rules out CGT on primary residences for the duration of the next parliament.

    But not CGT from other avenues.
    Indeed. It's rather obvious at this point they are coming for capital gains in a big way. Canada did similar earlier this year, and is already seeing capital flight.

    Fpt my story is fairly simple, I used to be on a high income, paying 40% on that and investing about half my net PAYE pay. Over the last decade I've accumulated seven figures in unrealised gains.

    Let's assume 1,000,000 exactly for a quick calculation. At current rates that's 200k tax. Which is doable. At 40% that becomes 400k in tax. Which to avoid, you have to leave the UK for 5 years after making the disposal (preferably in a 0% jurisdiction such as Dubai.)

    So the choice is to pay HMRC 400k, or spend, say, 200k on a nice 5 year holiday backpacking round the far east, and still being up 200k more than if remaining in the UK. From a personal perspective it really is a no brainer and I imagine most would be exploring the same options I currently am.

    Capital is mobile, and tbh I'd rather pay a reasonable amount. Cgt at 40%+ would be one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world and a lot of people with more than a million or two in gains - think successful entrepreneurs cashing out of their businesses - will be making the same calculation.
    Except there are lifetime allowances for businessmen selling their business. Granted the £1m at 10% isn’t the £10m it used to be but it’s better than nothing

    Also while you can up sticks it’s a lot harder for other people
    What makes you think that allowance will survive the next budget?

    The thing that gets me is a 40% cgt hits people like me who already paid 40% on our work incomes, invested the rest, and did well on the markets.

    When what you really want to be going for is the "born with millions and living off the family trust fund" crowd who are far wealthier than I will ever be.

    I worked 12+ hours days at my corporate drone job for years, spent little and invested my money wisely. A 1%'er I am most certainly not.

    As I said in the previous thread, it's the ladder curve in action. Tax my investments at 20% and you get a few hundred thousand for UK plc's coffers, tax them at 40% and it's in my best interest to get out entirely.

    And at the end of the day, we are all governed by rational self interest.
    Go away then. Go be morose in Dubai or the UAE or Saudi or Monaco. You've done your bit and taken your share. Hand your passport in and live a new unmoored life as a tax exile unencumbered by social norms. You could even meet up with our resident shit and chat about the wrongs of CGT.

    Just don't come back if you need a new hip or your liver stops working or a Gulf sheikh acting in rational self interest has confiscated your cash.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    The other match in Scotland's group:

    Switzerland beat Hungary 3-1
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Leon said:

    *checks weather in London*

    It’s 15C, cloudy, with a raw wind. Like late March but it’s mid June

    What rich person with mobility is gonna stick around for that PLUS hefty Labour taxes and 1m migrants every 2 months?

    Feeling so anxious about all these rich nomadic types leaving the country in response to the Tories losing power.

    It threatens to ruin the thrill of the Labour landslide for me.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    *checks weather in London*

    It’s 15C, cloudy, with a raw wind. Like late March but it’s mid June

    What rich person with mobility is gonna stick around for that PLUS hefty Labour taxes and 1m migrants every 2 months?

    Feeling so anxious about all these rich nomadic types leaving the country in response to the Tories losing power.

    It threatens to ruin the thrill of the Labour landslide for me.
    Nah - two birds with one stone.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it just me, or are we woefully short of any election news today?
    Has everybody given up campaigning? What is going on?

    I think everybody has just got bored. At this stage of the campaign the media are normally in full on, page after page attack pieces, puff pieces etc etc etc. Instead its all relegated to minor stories.
    Also King’s birthday.
    Even so, the Mail website for instance you have to scroll miles and miles past stories of missing students, dodgy sandwiches, stories about bank of mum and day, and the footy, before you get to an GE coverage. Its pretty much anything but talk about the GE.
    On behalf of the Right Honourable John Montagu, 11th Earl of Sandwich, his heirs, relations, retainers, etc., etc., I not only PROTEST your foul and unfounded aspersions re: "dodgy sandwiches" but DEMAND an immediate, comprehensive and grovelingly-abject retraction!
This discussion has been closed.