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The Sicilian Solution – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,221
edited June 16 in General
imageThe Sicilian Solution – politicalbetting.com

The Post Office Scandal – Where Now?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807
    Second like the LibDems
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,830
    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807
    Good article, thanks Peter & Cycle. Depressing though - I have this recurring feeling nowadays that we are living during the period that will come to be known as the Fall of the West.

    In some ways it's a blessing Mrs P. and I have no children, grandchildren etc. when I think of the prospect today's children are facing.

    (Then again - I bet every generation has had similar thoughts at times, so cheer up BenPointer!)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    Friends and colleagues insist I maintain a vendetta like a Sicilian.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,332
    See also the discussion at the end of the last thread regarding political disillusionment.

    The parties are again peddling dishonest prospectuses ahead of the next election.
    They know it; much of electorate knows it; and yet they're terrified to discuss what actually addressing our problems is likely to mean, in case it loses them votes at the margin.

    Brexit, again, is the poster child for that.
    A decade long distraction from anything practical, which has delivered nothing.

    So we have a political class which almost no one trusts, and a criminal justice system which threatens to head the same way.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    FPT
    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    The paradox is that the criminal justice system which the authors rely on to get the right answer now, is one of the principal villains of the piece. It ought to recuse itself wholesale and we can offshore the prosecutions to, I dunno, Rwanda?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
    More money won't be a panacea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,332
    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,980

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
    No.

    And I keep saying so.

    Tx for the header both.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
    More money won't be a panacea.
    I get that, but do you think these issues will be solved without additional money?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,959

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    FPT (because I dug around for the stat)

    In 1956, only 36% of households had a TV at all. That means a large proportion of boomers did not grow up with one in the house.

    TV access as a child only became ubiquitous from Gen X onwards. Sunak has managed to sound out of touch to his only remaining voting cohort.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Nigelb said:

    See also the discussion at the end of the last thread regarding political disillusionment.

    The parties are again peddling dishonest prospectuses ahead of the next election.
    They know it; much of electorate knows it; and yet they're terrified to discuss what actually addressing our problems is likely to mean, in case it loses them votes at the margin.

    Brexit, again, is the poster child for that.
    A decade long distraction from anything practical, which has delivered nothing.

    So we have a political class which almost no one trusts, and a criminal justice system which threatens to head the same way.

    The crisis of trust goes far beyond that -

    Media: untrusted, massively

    "Experts": untrusted, it is all politicised after Brexit (from either angle)

    Science: untrusted that's why Lab Leak was such a horrific own goal, why listen to "the science" ever again?

    And it is all going to get WORSE as we drown in a morass of highly plausible fake news and hoax videos

    Who do people trust now? Their friends, or what they see on Facebook and TikTok

    The post-truth, post-trust society; I fear it really could get messy


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807
    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,561
    ydoethur said:

    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...

    Do we need a British ENA, where instead of filling the national administration and top echelons of the civil service with people who have Mickey Mouse degrees such as PPE and Classics from Oxbridge we educate waves of competent students in a suitable mix of economics, law, politics, planning, business studies, sociology and most vitally ethics.

    Give a large cadre of students the chance to get a degree that fast tracks them to the civil service or local government where they have been taught about what makes a country tick, what all the parts do, where tax revenue is made and how. Teach them about the benefits system and the justice system so they understand how it “works” and then they can properly think constructively about how it might be improved.

    It can then be a badge where, when they are standing for election, they can show they actually have been taught about what they intend to do, a sort of electoral British Kite Mark.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,979
    FPT
    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    I remember the excitement when we got our first video recorder . Sunak grew up in a different generation . His comments are hardly controversial , when you’re a kid you view things from your own peer group . The issue is the comments will grate with those much older.

    I have some sympathy with that view.
    But also, he's 44. He would have been what, about 12 when Sky launched? Now yes, that's the peak of when you notice not having something. But also surely in 1991 not having Sky was almost ubiquitous?
    True. I was a cricket fan at the time and had to ask someone to record video highlights for me because they were one of the few people who had it. 1992 world cup.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    Sequential or concurrent?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    Sequential or concurrent?
    Concurrent.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Seeing the Tories warning against 'super majorities' this morning suggests their feedback on the doorstep is um sub optimal?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,206

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    My family had cable (HBO) in 1970s America. It was great to be able to watch films without adverts, and that is where my love of film started. US TV on the main networks was unbearable apart from 30 min sitcoms.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...

    Do we need a British ENA, where instead of filling the national administration and top echelons of the civil service with people who have Mickey Mouse degrees such as PPE and Classics from Oxbridge we educate waves of competent students in a suitable mix of economics, law, politics, planning, business studies, sociology and most vitally ethics.

    Give a large cadre of students the chance to get a degree that fast tracks them to the civil service or local government where they have been taught about what makes a country tick, what all the parts do, where tax revenue is made and how. Teach them about the benefits system and the justice system so they understand how it “works” and then they can properly think constructively about how it might be improved.

    It can then be a badge where, when they are standing for election, they can show they actually have been taught about what they intend to do, a sort of electoral British Kite Mark.
    That sounds great - the French system - but government by Enarques (eg Manny Macron) has led France to the brink of a Far Right government

    Perhaps that is why Macron scrapped the ENA
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    My family had cable (HBO) in 1970s America. It was great to be able to watch films without adverts, and that is where my love of film started. US TV on the main networks was unbearable apart from 30 min sitcoms.
    21 min sitcoms with 9 minutes of ads for take this drug, and by the way it might kill you.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    edited June 12

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    EPG said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
    They'll run a piece on how being at the average is hardest on women. They are a serious paper.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    A 28-year-old man has been charged with using threatening behaviour towards Nigel Farage after objects were thrown at him.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/12/nigel-farage-man-charged-objects-thrown/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,138
    Gus O'Donnell talking great sense earlier on R4 Today about how the parties are not being honest about public services and tax.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,561
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...

    Do we need a British ENA, where instead of filling the national administration and top echelons of the civil service with people who have Mickey Mouse degrees such as PPE and Classics from Oxbridge we educate waves of competent students in a suitable mix of economics, law, politics, planning, business studies, sociology and most vitally ethics.

    Give a large cadre of students the chance to get a degree that fast tracks them to the civil service or local government where they have been taught about what makes a country tick, what all the parts do, where tax revenue is made and how. Teach them about the benefits system and the justice system so they understand how it “works” and then they can properly think constructively about how it might be improved.

    It can then be a badge where, when they are standing for election, they can show they actually have been taught about what they intend to do, a sort of electoral British Kite Mark.
    That sounds great - the French system - but government by Enarques (eg Manny Macron) has led France to the brink of a Far Right government

    Perhaps that is why Macron scrapped the ENA
    Who says my long term goal with a British ENa isn’t to lead us to a far right government?

    Only joking.

    There were problems with the ENA in that it was quite socially rarefied and had the same domination as Oxbridge in the UK whereas I would want the British one to be a degree course, rather than a place, on offer at multiple universities around the UK to increase the breadth of applicants and product.

    If it was solely in London like ENA in Paris then the cost of being a student in London would put off a lot of people whereas if it was on offer in universities in all the main Cities and big towns, and maybe it’s own blind entrance exam, then it could work.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,954
    On the Post Office specifically, does it need saving at all? Does it have any functions that cannot be performed by other organisations?

    On governance of public institutions more generally, I am not sure what to suggest.

    The most obvious thing is to suggest that change can only come following leadership from the top. We would need our politicians to show a clear example of choosing to do something that is difficult and right, rather than easier and in their self-interest. When government is run on the principle of escaping scrutiny, of finding spin lines to talk away failure, of never admitting to a mistake if it can be avoided, then it is no surprise that the leadership of other institutions follow suit.

    Any government inevitably makes lots of mistakes. Everyone inevitably makes lots of mistakes. I don't expect us to become better at admitting them, but I think if we did so it would improve things.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,264
    One of my memories of TVs in the 1970s is that the sets were very unreliable. Having someone round to repair the TV was a regular occurrence.

    Also, when we first got a colour TV, it was a bit of a downer when half the programmes being broadcast were in black and white.

    Another also, I would be up early on a Sunday morning watching Open University broadcasts, as that is all there was to watch. That and Nai Zindagi Naya Jeevan, which I found even harder to follow than the degree-level physics!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709
    Sunak is not a lucky general. Perhaps the economic growth figures explain why he went early.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
    Its a sports thing. Succession and Game of Thrones would be the standouts fpr drama that they probably won't broadcast elsewhere, but are available on DVD (probably much cheaper to get now tv for 2 months to get through them). But Sky is really a sports thing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    - Investment (in infrastructure and services that actually work, health services that get people well again and back to work quickly, court services that process cases quickly, asylum processing that saves us spending squillions on asylum hotels....).
    - Simplification (removing stupid ideologically-driven red tape like: the switching overheads of an artificial retail energy market, rail franchising, etc; customs controls with our biggest trading partner; voter id ffs!; planning NIMBYism rules; I could go on...)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    One of my memories of TVs in the 1970s is that the sets were very unreliable. Having someone round to repair the TV was a regular occurrence.

    Also, when we first got a colour TV, it was a bit of a downer when half the programmes being broadcast were in black and white.

    Another also, I would be up early on a Sunday morning watching Open University broadcasts, as that is all there was to watch. That and Nai Zindagi Naya Jeevan, which I found even harder to follow than the degree-level physics!

    And the TV repair man had an exciting suitcase of tools and bits for a small boy to marvel at!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    Until I was 11 we only had a black and white TV. And it was a portable! And it wasn't so my parents could send us to Winchester. You've not lived until you've watched snooker in black and white.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Gus O'Donnell talking great sense earlier on R4 Today about how the parties are not being honest about public services and tax.

    Very insightful of him. Has he got any info on the bears and the woods?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807
    Jonathan said:

    Sunak is not a lucky general. Perhaps the economic growth figures explain why he went early.

    Should've gone in May surely.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109

    Seeing the Tories warning against 'super majorities' this morning suggests their feedback on the doorstep is um sub optimal?

    @aljwhite

    In fairness, “we had a landslide majority and look what happened next” is actually a pretty compelling argument
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    This campaign needs a random ICM style single figure lead to spice it up a bit
    38 29 10 10 7
    Something like that
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
    Sports.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,211

    Gus O'Donnell talking great sense earlier on R4 Today about how the parties are not being honest about public services and tax.

    You mean Gus "Iraq" O'Donnell?

    Who later came up with the formulation that the lies told by the spin doctors were state secrets and people should be arrested for leaking them.

    That Gus O'Donnell?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    My parents rented a new colour TV in the early 80s

    They delivered the wrong one by mistake, and so we had CEEFAX, for a whole week until the rental company figured out the mistake
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    Frankly he can't

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    EPG said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
    If regional cities are underachieving then perhaps it suggests that all the investment in them has brought a poor return and we should be looking to invest in different areas instead.

    The Guardian's suggestion that regional cities are underachieving so invest more might well be a case of throwing good money after bad.

    The Guardian also babbles about the 'economic imbalance between the south-east of England and other parts of the UK'.

    Well the chief economic imbalance is that in the south-east of England people cannot afford to buy homes and in the rest of the UK it is much easier.

    I'm not sure that 'levelling up' the rest of the country to London house prices benefits anyone apart from the rich and rentiers.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    Frankly he can't

    I just did.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,959
    edited June 12

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    What do we mean by public sector productivity?

    Part of the reason the NHS is under "pressure" is because so many illnesses and diseases are now fixable. Unlike other sectors, technological advances in health lead to an escalation in costs - pacemakers, statins, Libre (diabetes tech) all improve or extend people's lives, but cost lots of money to deliver.

    The only kind of public sector productivity gains you could get that save money are early interventions on obesity, dementia, cancer. Even if such policies are implemented, those savings are never transferred back to the Treasury, instead being used to help with other health issues.

    Both of these problems are a good thing, if your objective is to improve the welfare of the British people. Frankly I'm getting a bit frustrated with all these grand, witless statements about how to fix Britain. "Improve productivity", "Abolish quangos", "Burn red tape", "NIMBYism" - it's all a load of facile nonsense.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    @faisalislam
    Full quote from shadow Chancellor:

    “Rishi Sunak claims we have turned a corner, but the economy has stalled and there is no growth.

    “These figures expose the damage done after fourteen years of Conservative chaos. We are now in the third week of this general election campaign and in that time the Labour Party has set out its plan to grow the economy by bringing back stability, unlocking private sector investment and reforming our planning system.

    “All the Conservatives are offering is more of the same, with a desperate wish list of unfunded spending promises that will mean £4,800 more on people’s mortgages. Rishi Sunak’s plan is a recipe for five more years of Tory chaos.

    “It’s time for change. The election on 4 July is a chance to vote Labour so we can end the chaos, turn the page and rebuild our economy.”

    @faisalislam
    LibDem Treasury spokesperson Sarah Olney full quote:
    "As Rishi Sunak's time as Prime Minister peters out, so does the UK's economic growth," she said.
    "The Conservatives have utterly failed to deliver the growth they repeatedly promised, instead presiding over stagnation and economic misery for hardworking families across the country.
    "The Conservatives' manifesto shows they simply lack the ambition and vision to get the economy moving again.
    "It's clear for voters across the country that the only way to make it happen is to vote them out of office on July 4."
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,468
    edited June 12
    The Rest is Entertainment gives the television producers' view of election debates
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W2BfoV5DUY&t=2340s
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt says he’s within 1,500 votes of losing his seat — he’d be the first chancellor in modern history to do so. Top @Joe_Mayes report from the campaign trail >>

    https://x.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1800795570904395980
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Scott_xP said:

    My parents rented a new colour TV in the early 80s

    They delivered the wrong one by mistake, and so we had CEEFAX, for a whole week until the rental company figured out the mistake

    Kids today.

    They haven't lived until they've watched a football match on CEEFAX.
    Nah it was all about the Videprinter and hoping when you went one down you'd get the one in a thousand *******correction*********
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,432
    Foxy said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    I remember the excitement when we got our first video recorder . Sunak grew up in a different generation . His comments are hardly controversial , when you’re a kid you view things from your own peer group . The issue is the comments will grate with those much older.

    I have some sympathy with that view.
    But also, he's 44. He would have been what, about 12 when Sky launched? Now yes, that's the peak of when you notice not having something. But also surely in 1991 not having Sky was almost ubiquitous?
    Also arguably in the 90s not having satellite often meant you were a bit posher.
    definitely agree with that - the whole satellite dish created huge discussions about class/status (remember the squarial). Satellite TV (and sky ) was sneered at by many in the v late 1980s.
    The major drivers in the early years of Sky were Football and MTV, and also migrant communities wanting programmes from home. It wasn't a posh thing.
    Cartoons were a big thing with early years of Sky too.

    The idea of children's shows being on at any time (in set daytime hours of course) rather than a limited window was quite groundbreaking.

    As children, we loved when our parents got Sky meaning we got access to Cartoon Network and popular shows such as The Simpsons.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Nice header. Benefitted from (I guess) PtP's input as it's a bit of an easier read than some cyclefree headers - flows a little better - while also having cyclefree's insight and knowledge.I'd be very happy to see more collaborations!

    One thing that strikes me is, given how emblematic this is of recent decline, why Starmer isn't making more of this. I can understand Davey keeping quiet and of course Labour is also implicated, but probably not the current team. Or are there senior labour figures also embroiled in this?

    It's a sad state of affairs if a scandal goes on long enough to implicate all major parties that none will then run with it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Scott_xP said:

    @alexwickham

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt says he’s within 1,500 votes of losing his seat — he’d be the first chancellor in modern history to do so. Top @Joe_Mayes report from the campaign trail >>

    https://x.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1800795570904395980

    Are they going for the pity vote? I really can't understand why they think this helps them?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    Frankly he can't

    I just did.

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    Frankly he can't

    I just did.
    It's a fair cop, I'll give you simplification since I strongly agree. Your infrastructure - which I also agree with - begs the question where does the money come from ? Since you wont cut government spending - as it somehow cant be done - that only leaves taxation and taxation depresses growth.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,109
    @hoffman_noa

    There's been a change in Tory messaging

    The line on the morning round and across interviews from ministers now is "don't give Starmer a blank cheque" by handing Labour a "super-majority"

    Tories now seemingly openly fighting to be a strong opposition force rather than winning
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,225
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...

    Do we need a British ENA, where instead of filling the national administration and top echelons of the civil service with people who have Mickey Mouse degrees such as PPE and Classics from Oxbridge we educate waves of competent students in a suitable mix of economics, law, politics, planning, business studies, sociology and most vitally ethics.

    Give a large cadre of students the chance to get a degree that fast tracks them to the civil service or local government where they have been taught about what makes a country tick, what all the parts do, where tax revenue is made and how. Teach them about the benefits system and the justice system so they understand how it “works” and then they can properly think constructively about how it might be improved.

    It can then be a badge where, when they are standing for election, they can show they actually have been taught about what they intend to do, a sort of electoral British Kite Mark.
    That sounds great - the French system - but government by Enarques (eg Manny Macron) has led France to the brink of a Far Right government

    Perhaps that is why Macron scrapped the ENA
    Who says my long term goal with a British ENa isn’t to lead us to a far right government?

    Only joking.

    There were problems with the ENA in that it was quite socially rarefied and had the same domination as Oxbridge in the UK whereas I would want the British one to be a degree course, rather than a place, on offer at multiple universities around the UK to increase the breadth of applicants and product.

    If it was solely in London like ENA in Paris then the cost of being a student in London would put off a lot of people whereas if it was on offer in universities in all the main Cities and big towns, and maybe it’s own blind entrance exam, then it could work.
    I think the issue with EBA (and other grandes ecoles in France) is not so much the socially rarefied atmosphere but rather the typically French economic structure that harks back to the guilds and closed shops of the middle ages.

    Just about every sector in France is protected by either regulatory or qualification barriers to entry. It's as true with plumbers or carpenters or waiters as it is with politicians or CEOs, and is also true of products (think wine appellations).

    The aim is quality assurance, and it's certainly true the skilled tradesmen in France have much more formal training and are more closely regulated than their counterparts in the UK. It's much harder to be a cowboy, unless you operate in the grey economy.

    That can be positive for the customer but it also brings problems: lack of choice and competition, idees fixes, producer-centric attitudes. A sort of 2-tier system where anyone not formally qualified is seen as little more than a petit bricoleur. All the result of a system that creates regulatory oligopoly.

    The Anglo Saxon approach is more free-market and unregulated. But of course unregulated systems create monopolies and oligopolies too through force of money. Hence we get Oxbridge and the Ivy League. Informal closed shops rather than formal ones. But still easier to break into than the French official closed shops.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Scott_xP said:

    @alexwickham

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt says he’s within 1,500 votes of losing his seat — he’d be the first chancellor in modern history to do so. Top @Joe_Mayes report from the campaign trail >>

    https://x.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1800795570904395980

    The Tories would bite your hand off for that swing nationally
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Selebian said:

    Nice header. Benefitted from (I guess) PtP's input as it's a bit of an easier read than some cyclefree headers - flows a little better - while also having cyclefree's insight and knowledge.I'd be very happy to see more collaborations!

    One thing that strikes me is, given how emblematic this is of recent decline, why Starmer isn't making more of this. I can understand Davey keeping quiet and of course Labour is also implicated, but probably not the current team. Or are there senior labour figures also embroiled in this?

    It's a sad state of affairs if a scandal goes on long enough to implicate all major parties that none will then run with it.

    If Labour run with nothing they win a landslide. So they run with nothing.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709
    I remember when the travelling minstrels came to the village. I couldn’t go, my father made sacrifices to achieve a bigger family dung heap.

    At least when the minstrels brought plague to the village, only half of my siblings were wiped out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    See also the discussion at the end of the last thread regarding political disillusionment.

    The parties are again peddling dishonest prospectuses ahead of the next election.
    They know it; much of electorate knows it; and yet they're terrified to discuss what actually addressing our problems is likely to mean, in case it loses them votes at the margin.

    Brexit, again, is the poster child for that.
    A decade long distraction from anything practical, which has delivered nothing.

    So we have a political class which almost no one trusts, and a criminal justice system which threatens to head the same way.

    The crisis of trust goes far beyond that -

    Media: untrusted, massively

    "Experts": untrusted, it is all politicised after Brexit (from either angle)

    Science: untrusted that's why Lab Leak was such a horrific own goal, why listen to "the science" ever again?

    And it is all going to get WORSE as we drown in a morass of highly plausible fake news and hoax videos

    Who do people trust now? Their friends, or what they see on Facebook and TikTok

    The post-truth, post-trust society; I fear it really could get messy
    But conspiracy theories are your stock in trade! There's no week where we don't have you breathlessly boosting some kind of fake news. You push aliens, fake Trump narratives, snipers on the roof ready to murder French protesters, any old rubbish. You're constantly shitting the bed about anything that's reported by some crappy anonymous far-right Twitter account. Post-truth? You're the biggest sucker on here.
    Lab leak. Necklace. Covid. Nordstream. ALSO LOADS OF THINGS I CAN’T MENTION

    Here’s my latest office-cum-balcony. You can just see the Black Sea and the port of Odessa through the trees. It’s really quite idyllic, apart from the brutal nightly air attacks

    You should fly over and escape the British weather, stop staring at bollards in drizzly Dundee


  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,225
    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    There's been a change in Tory messaging

    The line on the morning round and across interviews from ministers now is "don't give Starmer a blank cheque" by handing Labour a "super-majority"

    Tories now seemingly openly fighting to be a strong opposition force rather than winning

    Yes it's the Australia tactic. Same as Howard tried (semi-successfully) in 2005. Their best hope I think.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,225

    Scott_xP said:

    @alexwickham

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt says he’s within 1,500 votes of losing his seat — he’d be the first chancellor in modern history to do so. Top @Joe_Mayes report from the campaign trail >>

    https://x.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1800795570904395980

    The Tories would bite your hand off for that swing nationally
    I was thinking the same. If that's the sort of swing he's getting then the Lib Dems are in for a disappointing night.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    What do we mean by public sector productivity?

    Part of the reason the NHS is under "pressure" is because so many illnesses and diseases are now fixable. Unlike other sectors, technological advances in health lead to an escalation in costs - pacemakers, statins, Libre (diabetes tech) all improve or extend people's lives, but cost lots of money to deliver.

    The only kind of public sector productivity gains you could get that save money are early interventions on obesity, dementia, cancer. Even if such policies are implemented, those savings are never transferred back to the Treasury, instead being used to help with other health issues.

    Both of these problems are a good thing, if your objective is to improve the welfare of the British people. Frankly I'm getting a bit frustrated with all these grand, witless statements about how to fix Britain. "Improve productivity", "Abolish quangos", "Burn red tape", "NIMBYism" - it's all a load of facile nonsense.
    Technology is about to massively decrease those costs
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,093
    For @Leon:

    In that London for the day. Look: warm and blue skies! Also look: The ugliness of London's most important station is incomprehensible!

  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,228

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
    I don't think this is a problem money can solve. The Tories have been hosing money at stuff (particularly the NHS) without any perceptable improvement.

    The reality is that we've been living wildly above our means for ages, and that we're now trapped under a mountain of debt created by this; after all the tax rises this Parliament, we're quite close to running a primary surplus, but the debt payments are crippling. There is very little scope to increase the tax take further, although there is scope to rebalance the tax system to be less logical.

    It's a mess, the only possible long-term solution is cutting government tax and spending to get growth back, but that is going to involve slaying some very sacred cows.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    Labour = Growth; Tories = Stagnation. The last 27 years makes that clear.
    Productivity increases = growth
    No productivity increases = stagnation

    The last 300 years make that clear.

    Now tell us how to increase productivity.

    You can start with telling us how to increase public sector productivity.
    - Investment (in infrastructure and services that actually work, health services that get people well again and back to work quickly, court services that process cases quickly, asylum processing that saves us spending squillions on asylum hotels....).
    - Simplification (removing stupid ideologically-driven red tape like: the switching overheads of an artificial retail energy market, rail franchising, etc; customs controls with our biggest trading partner; voter id ffs!; planning NIMBYism rules; I could go on...)
    So spend more money.

    What a surprise.

    The government spends £1.25 TRILLION quid this year and we're told we have 'Broken Britain'.

    But if it spends a few million more we'll get the New Jerusalem.

    I'll quote what you said about the effects of cutting employers national insurance:

    get swallowed up with inefficiencies in the longer term.

    Its much more likely you'll have that effect on any 'investment' to improve public sector efficiency.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
    Sports.
    Mate I know a bloke who can do you a cracked Firestick for £45 that'll get you everything for free, from across the globe, including those channels that do so much to enhance a gentleman's relaxation time. Screw the man. Fight the power.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Scott_xP said:

    My parents rented a new colour TV in the early 80s

    They delivered the wrong one by mistake, and so we had CEEFAX, for a whole week until the rental company figured out the mistake

    Kids today.

    They haven't lived until they've watched a football match on CEEFAX.
    I remember watching F1 races on Ceefex in the late ‘80s, seeing the lap chart refresh every couple of minutes and seeing who’d overtaken or retired!

    Now we have every session of the whole weekend shown live, plus about six hours of magazine shows and another six hours of support races.

    No F1 this weekend, so will be watching the 24h from Le Mans instead.

    Does anyone watch anything live on TV any more, apart from sports and the occasional political debate?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    Cookie said:

    For @Leon:

    In that London for the day. Look: warm and blue skies! Also look: The ugliness of London's most important station is incomprehensible!

    You've posted the wrong image, you wanted to post a picture of St Pancras station.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited June 12
    Cookie said:

    For @Leon:

    In that London for the day. Look: warm and blue skies! Also look: The ugliness of London's most important station is incomprehensible!

    Euston is absolutely shocking. Possibly the ugliest big station in Western Europe?

    I know they plan to tear it down for HS2 but it was ugly from the get-go

    But it is good to see nice weather in the Smoke, friends back home are telling me they’ve put the heating on. In June

    PS Euston is not the most important station, I don’t think. That’s surely waterloo by sheer numbers or Kings X/St Panc because of the combo of so many lines including Eurostar
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    On the Sky stuff. It's universal now. In 15 years time the equivalent will be 'no smartphone'
    As ever the media are starting to overreach with criticism and the whiff of pile on appears. How the public react to that depends on how far they push it. Brown's handwriting is the guide here, attacking the guy as some sort of monster when he was just naff. Same risk.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,059
    theProle said:

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
    I don't think this is a problem money can solve. The Tories have been hosing money at stuff (particularly the NHS) without any perceptable improvement.

    The reality is that we've been living wildly above our means for ages, and that we're now trapped under a mountain of debt created by this; after all the tax rises this Parliament, we're quite close to running a primary surplus, but the debt payments are crippling. There is very little scope to increase the tax take further, although there is scope to rebalance the tax system to be less logical.

    It's a mess, the only possible long-term solution is cutting government tax and spending to get growth back, but that is going to involve slaying some very sacred cows.
    The only chance of cutting tax and spending is the re election of a Sunak Tory government.

    A landslide majority for Starmer Labour will almost certainly see taxes increase and gradually increase spending then further too
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
    Sports.
    Mate I know a bloke who can do you a cracked Firestick for £45 that'll get you everything for free, from across the globe, including those channels that do so much to enhance a gentleman's relaxation time. Screw the man. Fight the power.
    Piracy helps terrorism and drug dealers.

    I will not be party to such a thing.

    Also I cannot have a criminal record with my job.

    PLUS

    Thanks to a friend who works for Sky I get the friends and family discount so I get Sky Q and three mini boxes, all the channels including Sports, Cinema, Netflix, TNT Sports for £26.50 a month.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    On the Sky stuff. It's universal now. In 15 years time the equivalent will be 'no smartphone'
    As ever the media are starting to overreach with criticism and the whiff of pile on appears. How the public react to that depends on how far they push it. Brown's handwriting is the guide here, attacking the guy as some sort of monster when he was just naff. Same risk.

    It's naff to handwrite letters?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,477

    Scott_xP said:

    @alexwickham

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt says he’s within 1,500 votes of losing his seat — he’d be the first chancellor in modern history to do so. Top @Joe_Mayes report from the campaign trail >>

    https://x.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1800795570904395980

    The Tories would bite your hand off for that swing nationally
    Memo to the Prime Minister.

    DO NOT bite anyone's hand off.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
    Maybe they wrote it up as both:

    Lyon and Frankfurt were ranked more highly than Birmingham and Manchester and made the difference between the UK being the top-ranked G7 economy behind the US and remaining a middle-ranking country.

    Canada, Italy and Japan were ranked lower than the UK, according to a measure of output per hour.
    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
    Maybe they wrote it up as both:

    Lyon and Frankfurt were ranked more highly than Birmingham and Manchester and made the difference between the UK being the top-ranked G7 economy behind the US and remaining a middle-ranking country.

    Canada, Italy and Japan were ranked lower than the UK, according to a measure of output per hour.
    Nice try. But they said growth was slower, not faster, than it otherwise would have been.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    On the Sky stuff. It's universal now. In 15 years time the equivalent will be 'no smartphone'
    As ever the media are starting to overreach with criticism and the whiff of pile on appears. How the public react to that depends on how far they push it. Brown's handwriting is the guide here, attacking the guy as some sort of monster when he was just naff. Same risk.

    It's naff to handwrite letters?
    No, the pile on over handwriting was because they were piling on over his general naffness. That was the overreach and it backfired
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    theProle said:

    The Secret Barrister made the point that somebody sexually assaulted today is likely to see the trial for that assault take place in 2029.

    That's not good for anybody.

    So many public services similarly trashed. Can anyone see an answer without additional spending and thus increased tax?
    I don't think this is a problem money can solve. The Tories have been hosing money at stuff (particularly the NHS) without any perceptable improvement.

    The reality is that we've been living wildly above our means for ages, and that we're now trapped under a mountain of debt created by this; after all the tax rises this Parliament, we're quite close to running a primary surplus, but the debt payments are crippling. There is very little scope to increase the tax take further, although there is scope to rebalance the tax system to be less logical.

    It's a mess, the only possible long-term solution is cutting government tax and spending to get growth back, but that is going to involve slaying some very sacred cows.
    I'd start with DCMS; if there are 3 things the state shouldn't get involved in they are culture, media and sport.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,069
    I would be amazed if any of these people ever account for their multiple crimes. It is the little people who suffer judicial retribution not those further up the chain
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Scott_xP said:

    @alexwickham

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt says he’s within 1,500 votes of losing his seat — he’d be the first chancellor in modern history to do so. Top @Joe_Mayes report from the campaign trail >>

    https://x.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1800795570904395980

    The Tories would bite your hand off for that swing nationally
    Memo to the Prime Minister.

    DO NOT bite anyone's hand off.
    Unless they have a milkshake in it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,069

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
    Sports.
    Mate I know a bloke who can do you a cracked Firestick for £45 that'll get you everything for free, from across the globe, including those channels that do so much to enhance a gentleman's relaxation time. Screw the man. Fight the power.
    Yeah, that is really sticking it to the great and the powerful. A cracked firestick !!!!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,059
    edited June 12
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...

    Do we need a British ENA, where instead of filling the national administration and top echelons of the civil service with people who have Mickey Mouse degrees such as PPE and Classics from Oxbridge we educate waves of competent students in a suitable mix of economics, law, politics, planning, business studies, sociology and most vitally ethics.

    Give a large cadre of students the chance to get a degree that fast tracks them to the civil service or local government where they have been taught about what makes a country tick, what all the parts do, where tax revenue is made and how. Teach them about the benefits system and the justice system so they understand how it “works” and then they can properly think constructively about how it might be improved.

    It can then be a badge where, when they are standing for election, they can show they actually have been taught about what they intend to do, a sort of electoral British Kite Mark.
    That sounds great - the French system - but government by Enarques (eg Manny Macron) has led France to the brink of a Far Right government

    Perhaps that is why Macron scrapped the ENA
    Who says my long term goal with a British ENa isn’t to lead us to a far right government?

    Only joking.

    There were problems with the ENA in that it was quite socially rarefied and had the same domination as Oxbridge in the UK whereas I would want the British one to be a degree course, rather than a place, on offer at multiple universities around the UK to increase the breadth of applicants and product.

    If it was solely in London like ENA in Paris then the cost of being a student in London would put off a lot of people whereas if it was on offer in universities in all the main Cities and big towns, and maybe it’s own blind entrance exam, then it could work.
    I think the issue with EBA (and other grandes ecoles in France) is not so much the socially rarefied atmosphere but rather the typically French economic structure that harks back to the guilds and closed shops of the middle ages.

    Just about every sector in France is protected by either regulatory or qualification barriers to entry. It's as true with plumbers or carpenters or waiters as it is with politicians or CEOs, and is also true of products (think wine appellations).

    The aim is quality assurance, and it's certainly true the skilled tradesmen in France have much more formal training and are more closely regulated than their counterparts in the UK. It's much harder to be a cowboy, unless you operate in the grey economy.

    That can be positive for the customer but it also brings problems: lack of choice and competition, idees fixes, producer-centric attitudes. A sort of 2-tier system where anyone not formally qualified is seen as little more than a petit bricoleur. All the result of a system that creates regulatory oligopoly.

    The Anglo Saxon approach is
    more free-market and
    unregulated. But of course
    unregulated systems create
    monopolies and oligopolies
    too through force of money.
    Hence we get Oxbridge and
    the Ivy League. Informal
    closed shops rather than
    formal ones. But still easier to break into than the French
    official closed shops.
    I am sure Cyclefree prefers
    the French system, regulate
    the cowboys out of existence. Plus also then add on jail anybody who has ever made or advised a wrong call in any organisation
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,994
    edited June 12
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My parents rented a new colour TV in the early 80s

    They delivered the wrong one by mistake, and so we had CEEFAX, for a whole week until the rental company figured out the mistake

    Kids today.

    They haven't lived until they've watched a football match on CEEFAX.
    I remember watching F1 races on Ceefex in the late ‘80s, seeing the lap chart refresh every couple of minutes and seeing who’d overtaken or retired!

    Now we have every session of the whole weekend shown live, plus about six hours of magazine shows and another six hours of support races.

    No F1 this weekend, so will be watching the 24h from Le Mans instead.

    Does anyone watch anything live on TV any more, apart from sports and the occasional political debate?
    Those were the days.

    Live TV only happens for sport in this household (and the bit of breaking news).

    My kids think I am lying to them when I tell them when I was their age there were about 12 league games shown live per season.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
    If regional cities are underachieving then perhaps it suggests that all the investment in them has brought a poor return and we should be looking to invest in different areas instead.

    The Guardian's suggestion that regional cities are underachieving so invest more might well be a case of throwing good money after bad.

    The Guardian also babbles about the 'economic imbalance between the south-east of England and other parts of the UK'.

    Well the chief economic imbalance is that in the south-east of England people cannot afford to buy homes and in the rest of the UK it is much easier.

    I'm not sure that 'levelling up' the rest of the country to London house prices benefits anyone apart from the rich and rentiers.
    I don't think you've understood what this story is about at all. It's about a report that has recommendations for improving regional productivity through better planning laws, reforms to local government, and spending the money the government has earmarked for regional innovation but failed to spend.

    It's not really about house prices.
    House prices are the most prominent difference between London and the rest of the country.

    They should always be mentioned when these 'other places need to be more like London' stories appear.

    As top the rest you lost me at 'reforms to local government'.

    What ANOTHER reform to local government.

    I'd suggest that perhaps one of the problems is that we never stop implementing reforms in local government and public services leading to disruption caused by too much change.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    Rishi Sunak had to “go without” Sky TV as a child because his parents were making sacrifices for his education, the prime minister has said



    @mikeysmith

    The other way to read this answer is that if every family works hard and sacrifices luxuries they can send their kids to Winchester.

    And if they don’t, they’re not making their children‘s education “a priority”.

    See, that's exactly my childhood.

    Plus my father was convinced getting Sky would impact my grades.

    Fortunately we got Sky when I aced my GCSEs.
    Wait. You had TV? Luxury.
    Growing up, we had three TVs.
    I've never had sky (apart from a shared house I lived in where, due to some administrative snafu, we had free cable for a couple of years), and I don't think I've missed out on anything really - I'm not a sports fan - other than the Simpsons in the 90s before Channel 4 got it.

    Whenever I've flicked through someone's sky when I've been at their house it always seems to be gazillions of channels of garbage. Even the history channels - and I love history - are rubbish.

    I can understand why we have the licence fee, because it funds the BBC and everything it does including radio, etc, etc, and I'm happy to pay for it and not have to watch adverts. I know many aren't fans of the BBC and the 'tax', but I am, despite it not being perfect by any means. We don't appreciate how lucky we are to have it, IMHO.

    I understand why the commercial channels have adverts - that's the price to pay of watching it 'free'.

    But I could never understand why people had to pay for sky, yet still had to wade through tons of adverts. Why would you pay to watch advertising?
    Sports.
    Mate I know a bloke who can do you a cracked Firestick for £45 that'll get you everything for free, from across the globe, including those channels that do so much to enhance a gentleman's relaxation time. Screw the man. Fight the power.
    Piracy helps terrorism and drug dealers.

    I will not be party to such a thing.

    Also I cannot have a criminal record with my job.

    PLUS

    Thanks to a friend who works for Sky I get the friends and family discount so I get Sky Q and three mini boxes, all the channels including Sports, Cinema, Netflix, TNT Sports for £26.50 a month.
    Ah, you see, you're part of the problem, perpetuating this country's feudal hierarchy in favour of the boss class. The hardworking common man can't rely on such patronage and 'the old school tie' to get himself such a sweet deal.

    Solidarity with the Firestick Robin Hoods.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,059

    EPG said:

    Nigelb said:

    Levelling up status report.

    Poor investment in UK regional cities curbed economic growth, report finds
    Standards of living lag behind G7 countries US, France and Germany, as 50th summit approaches
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/poor-investment-in-uk-regional-cities-curbed-economic-growth-report-finds

    So the UK is at the average of seven countries, and the Guardian writes it up as "worse than USA" instead of "better than Japan".
    If regional cities are underachieving then perhaps it suggests that all the investment in them has brought a poor return and we should be looking to invest in different areas instead.

    The Guardian's suggestion that regional cities are underachieving so invest more might well be a case of throwing good money after bad.

    The Guardian also babbles about the 'economic imbalance between the south-east of England and other parts of the UK'.

    Well the chief economic imbalance is that in the south-east of England people cannot afford to buy homes and in the rest of the UK it is much easier.

    I'm not sure that 'levelling up' the rest of the country to London house prices benefits anyone apart from the rich and rentiers.
    Basically they want London wages in the North, Midlands, Scotland and Wales but Northern and Welsh house prices for London and the Home Counties, which is not going to happen
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Cookie said:

    For @Leon:

    In that London for the day. Look: warm and blue skies! Also look: The ugliness of London's most important station is incomprehensible!

    You've posted the wrong image, you wanted to post a picture of St Pancras station.
    When I first took my wife to London, we had several transport options but in the end I went with arriving at St. Pancras.

    Because of course you would, the place is absolutely stunning as opposed to the concrete monstrosities that pass for stations on either side of it.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,485
    ydoethur said:

    Few seem to appreciate that this scandal, the blood contamination case, the Andy Malkinson case (and other similar ones), the endless NHS and Police scandals are all symptomatic of a shredded administrative and political class lacking in competence, integrity and either the ability to admit to or willingness to correct mistakes.

    I found myself in disagreement with this paragraph.

    But only because you forgot to mention education...

    It's a very long list. Ours was not meant to be comprehensive.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,485

    Good article, thanks Peter & Cycle. Depressing though - I have this recurring feeling nowadays that we are living during the period that will come to be known as the Fall of the West.

    In some ways it's a blessing Mrs P. and I have no children, grandchildren etc. when I think of the prospect today's children are facing.

    (Then again - I bet every generation has had similar thoughts at times, so cheer up BenPointer!)

    It can be depressing, Ben. I have noticed the change in standards of administration and integrity in my lifetime, particularly in recent.

    It is a problem, and it transcends party politics. Tough one for succeeding generations, I agree.
This discussion has been closed.