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A Portillo moment for a new generation? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,801
edited June 16 in General
imageA Portillo moment for a new generation? – politicalbetting.com

New Mail on Sunday poll shows Rishi Sunak on course to lose his own seat. https://t.co/j6mYjIb4hv

Read the full story here

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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,272
    That would be Portillo on stilts! And first!
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,579
    edited June 9
    First.
    Like the Tories if they are lucky.
  • Options
    JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 671
    More PB Competition Musings :smile:

    1. Time Sunak starts his concession speech.
    2. Last seat to declare and time.
    3. First Cabinet minister to be defeated.
    4. Galloway share of the vote.
    5. Speaker share of the vote.
  • Options
    JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 671
    dixiedean said:

    First.
    Like the Tories if they are lucky.

    In Rishi's seat?
  • Options
    Smart51Smart51 Posts: 58
    Rishi losing his seat would only bring a leadership election forward by a number of days, surely. More important is who will replace him. Mostly because it will set the direction of the remainder of the party.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,356
    JACK_W said:

    More PB Competition Musings :smile:

    1. Time Sunak starts his concession speech.

    Null and void if he makes it prior to July 4th...
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,069
    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 81
    Something is happening in Hungary:
    https://x.com/EuropeElects/status/1799798741333078374
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,356

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    @SeanJonesKC

    Does there come a point where Sunak’s performance is so absurdly poor that Silicon Valley firms lose interest in his CV?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    JACK_W said:

    More PB Competition Musings :smile:

    1. Time Sunak starts his concession speech.
    2. Last seat to declare and time.
    3. First Cabinet minister to be defeated.
    4. Galloway share of the vote.
    5. Speaker share of the vote.

    I've added the Speaker one to the list, I like that one.

    Would be funny AF if he lost. Yes yes, I know, zero chance of that sadly.
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 81
    dixiedean said:

    First.
    Like the Tories if they are lucky.

    They won't be! question is will they be the main opposition?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,063
    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    Nunu5 said:
    Maybe, hopefully, people see war happening next door and suddenly get that democracy is a nice idea and let's do more of it.
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 81

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    He hasn't made his comeback yet.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,329
    First! ... sentence of the header is one I never want to read again.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,272

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Remember, though, that while he is travelling the country, Labour will be flooding his seat with activists.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,138
    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
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    SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 622
    Alcaraz is losing it now.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    edited June 9
    More minor drama in Denmark. The former PM and leader of the Moderate party, Lars Løkke Rasmussen, has been injured when his boat hit a bridge. Apparently due to high water the boat got stuck under a bridge where it would normally pass comfortably under. He got a swollen hand and his daughter was taken to hospital with grazes.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    No. ExPM is pretty impressive to us USers, who are mostly clueless (no shock to you!) when it comes to ins & outs & WTF of UK politics.

    For example, the fact that Liz Truss wilted faster than that head of lettuce & etc., etc., etc. has not diminished her American cache as a former resident of No. 10 Downing Street. Even for those among us who do NOT know where or what that is. (Likely higher % than UKers who don't know where or what re: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.)
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,464
    EPG said:

    First! ... sentence of the header is one I never want to read again.

    Challenge accepted.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,356
    Hey guys, is there ANY way we can make the D-Day disaster worse?

    @SkyNews

    Media not 'allowed anywhere near' Sunak after 'farcical' D-Day fiasco

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1799829008248619411
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Assuming that's true (as it very likely is) how soon after the 4th of July will he be talking the Chiltern Hundreds/Manor of Northstead?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,069

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    No. ExPM is pretty impressive to us USers, who are mostly clueless (no shock to you!) when it comes to ins & outs & WTF of UK politics.

    For example, the fact that Liz Truss wilted faster than that head of lettuce & etc., etc., etc. has not diminished her American cache as a former resident of No. 10 Downing Street. Even for those among us who do NOT know where or what that is. (Likely higher % than UKers who don't know where or what re: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.)
    I don't think many of us know the address, but I'd say most are very familiar with The White House as a name.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,319
    Leon said:

    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
    Austria's exit poll has FPO 28-30%, SPO 22-24%, OVP 21-23%, Greens 10-12%.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,967

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    Poor guy will be nearly destitute if he can't get a gig in Silicon Valley.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Assuming that's true (as it very likely is) how soon after the 4th of July will he be talking the Chiltern Hundreds/Manor of Northstead?
    You surely don't think he's going to leave early?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,319
    Sunak will be giving his best effort to lose Richmond and Northallerton.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    edited June 9

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    No. ExPM is pretty impressive to us USers, who are mostly clueless (no shock to you!) when it comes to ins & outs & WTF of UK politics.

    For example, the fact that Liz Truss wilted faster than that head of lettuce & etc., etc., etc. has not diminished her American cache as a former resident of No. 10 Downing Street. Even for those among us who do NOT know where or what that is. (Likely higher % than UKers who don't know where or what re: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.)
    I don't think many of us know the address, but I'd say most are very familiar with The White House as a name.
    My point is that only Brits who are political junkies re: US politics are likely to know the actual address of the White House.

    Slightly different re: No. 10 because nobody calls it the Prime Minister's House, or anything BUT the address.

    ADDENDUM - might be fun IF the incoming PM had a parade on (US) or in (UK) Downing St.!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,967
    Nunu5 said:

    dixiedean said:

    First.
    Like the Tories if they are lucky.

    They won't be! question is will they be the main opposition?
    Well, he did post it in second place. Tories first in the race to be second if they are lucky?
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    mickydroymickydroy Posts: 271
    I think there could be a few surprises come election night, on either side, but I don't expect Sunak to be one of them, fwiw I still think the Tories will end up with 200 + seats
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
    Austria's exit poll has FPO 28-30%, SPO 22-24%, OVP 21-23%, Greens 10-12%.
    Confirmed on ARD German television. FPO up 10% OVP down 11% - 27% and 23% respectively
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,126

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Agree. But there will be a number of Portillo moments, including the defeating of serious contenders for the Tory leadership. From the point of view of the future of politics whether Sunak survives or is defeated is, by 5th July, of no importance or interest. The caravan fold its tents and moves swiftly on. They will not be dull days. Starmer's first hundred days and which Tory big beasts are still up for the internal fight as well as the battle of Farage Creek will be filling PB comments.

    The most interesting election since 1945 (insert different date if you like) will give way to a riveting next few months when we try to work out what Starmer's actual plan is.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,074

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I don't think he ever wanted or needed a 'tech-bro' career. People are only saying that because Nick Clegg did it.

    Sunak is more likely to create something like the Clinton Foundation and become a major NGO power broker.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,138

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
    Austria's exit poll has FPO 28-30%, SPO 22-24%, OVP 21-23%, Greens 10-12%.
    Confirmed on ARD German television. FPO up 10% OVP down 11% - 27% and 23% respectively
    I’ve no idea what any of these initialisms mean
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
    Austria's exit poll has FPO 28-30%, SPO 22-24%, OVP 21-23%, Greens 10-12%.
    Confirmed on ARD German television. FPO up 10% OVP down 11% - 27% and 23% respectively
    I’ve no idea what any of these initialisms mean
    FPO right wing OVP centre right

    German exit polls in 10 minutes
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,319
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
    Austria's exit poll has FPO 28-30%, SPO 22-24%, OVP 21-23%, Greens 10-12%.
    Confirmed on ARD German television. FPO up 10% OVP down 11% - 27% and 23% respectively
    I’ve no idea what any of these initialisms mean
    FPO are radical right, OVP the centre right
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    @SeanJonesKC

    Does there come a point where Sunak’s performance is so absurdly poor that Silicon Valley firms lose interest in his CV?
    No. (See my previous response.)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Nunu5 said:
    I wonder if this is the election when Europe becomes more of a polity. A democratic reality. There’s nothing like an enemy to forge a nation
    Austria's exit poll has FPO 28-30%, SPO 22-24%, OVP 21-23%, Greens 10-12%.
    Confirmed on ARD German television. FPO up 10% OVP down 11% - 27% and 23% respectively
    I’ve no idea what any of these initialisms mean
    FPO are radical right, OVP the centre right
    Austria shifts 10% rightwards
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    Farooq said:

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Assuming that's true (as it very likely is) how soon after the 4th of July will he be talking the Chiltern Hundreds/Manor of Northstead?
    You surely don't think he's going to leave early?
    No.

    RS may be a crap PM and worse electioneer. BUT see zero evidence that he'll cut & run.

    Rishi Sunak ended up with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he's got some grit in his gizzard.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,138

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I don't think he ever wanted or needed a 'tech-bro' career. People are only saying that because Nick Clegg did it.

    Sunak is more likely to create something like the Clinton Foundation and become a major NGO power broker.
    I disagree. I think he is genuinely interested in this arena and would enjoy a career

    He doesn’t even have to go to Silicon Valley. Google deep mind is in london
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,431
    On the general topic of things being reported in the Mail, here's something else of interest:

    Jeremy Hunt has vowed to do more to help those on six-figure salaries if the Tories win the general election - and he clings on to his own seat.

    The Chancellor suggested, if he remains in charge of the Treasury beyond 4 July, he would be focused on removing 'cliff edges' for high earners in the tax system.

    Mr Hunt pointed to how the Government's offer of free childcare for parents is not available if one of them is earning over £100,000.

    ....

    'Around here the childcare reforms have been pretty popular,' the Chancellor said, as he spoke to the newspaper in Bramley, Surrey.

    'But people also do raise the fact that one person earning over £100,000 means you don't get access to them and that creates a cliff edge.

    'Because it was a big commitment we just couldn't afford to do more when I made the original announcement.

    'But those are things I think we definitely want to make progress on, yes.'

    He added: 'I've always said that if you want to be economically productive we have to get rid of the cliff edges in the tax system.

    'The removal of the personal allowance, the fact that childcare support stops when one person in a household is earning over £100,000.

    'If you speak to economists, they will say the most damaging things in the tax system are when you have things with a high marginal rate.

    'So it is absolutely on our list as something we would like to do more on.'


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13510505/Jeremy-Hunt-vows-help-six-figure-earners-Tories-win-general-election-Chancellor-survives-Portillo-moment-4-July.html

    Compare this to the incessant foot-dragging over the victimisation of Carer's Allowance claimants who, earning, shall we say, somewhat less than £100,000, have found themselves falling over a cliff edge for earning about 56p too much and being ruthlessly pursued by Government-appointed debt collectors.

    A good illustration of where Conservative priorities *appear* to lie - but it'll be fascinating to see which, if either, of these issues is deemed worthy of mention in the forthcoming manifesto.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,354
    I think there's a good possibility of Rishi losing his seat. Prices bear careful watching.
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    TresTres Posts: 2,333
    It won't be a Sunak moment if we are discussing it now. Portillo was campaigning in Scotland a couple of days before the election in 1997 rather than shoring up the vote in his own constituency (source: he visited the supermarket where I had a part-time job). Plus the PM usually has a huge incumbency bounce.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316
    German TV showing poll trends,

    Socialists lost voter trust on social justice
    Conservatives (CDU) at lowest trust on economy
    24% of voters have no confidence in any party

    sounds familiar
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,354

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I don't think he ever wanted or needed a 'tech-bro' career. People are only saying that because Nick Clegg did it.

    Sunak is more likely to create something like the Clinton Foundation and become a major NGO power broker.
    Perhaps - already having mega wealth, influence is more the goal as the next step - though I think LuckyGuy's point remains, in that a truly disastrous showing would probably affect future prospects in any field, at least in the short term.

    They'd still be there - that mega wealth again - but it limits what you may be the face of.

    Just look at Truss, and where she has had to shop herself.
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,014

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    Nick Clegg has done all right, I think.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    algarkirk said:

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Agree. But there will be a number of Portillo moments, including the defeating of serious contenders for the Tory leadership. From the point of view of the future of politics whether Sunak survives or is defeated is, by 5th July, of no importance or interest. The caravan fold its tents and moves swiftly on. They will not be dull days. Starmer's first hundred days and which Tory big beasts are still up for the internal fight as well as the battle of Farage Creek will be filling PB comments.

    The most interesting election since 1945 (insert different date if you like) will give way to a riveting next few months when we try to work out what Starmer's actual plan is.
    Personally am awaiting with baited breath, the moment when Jacob Rees-Mogg's government transportation service sedan-chair carriers drop sticks thus leaving JRM to take a night bus back home after the returning officer makes it official.

    Likely? Perhaps not - but a boy can still dream!
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878

    Farooq said:

    Rishi isn't going to lose his seat.

    Assuming that's true (as it very likely is) how soon after the 4th of July will he be talking the Chiltern Hundreds/Manor of Northstead?
    You surely don't think he's going to leave early?
    No.

    RS may be a crap PM and worse electioneer. BUT see zero evidence that he'll cut & run.

    Rishi Sunak ended up with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he's got some grit in his gizzard.
    That's sand, not grit. He spent too long on the beach last week.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    Leon said:

    This is one of the days when I regret Brexit on a purely emotional level. I used to enjoy EU elections. In a geek way. “Ooh look at the greens in Slovenia”. “Wow go the Nazis in Luxembourg” etc

    EU elex are Eurovision for cis-het nerds

    Hey, I'm a cis-het nerd and Eurovision is my Eurovision.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316

    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

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    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,518
    Sadly the chicken run of various ministers has put paid to a lot of possible Portillo moments. I will still though be looking forward to seeing many tories in tears at 3am in various leisure centres on election night.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,074


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    Farooq said:

    More minor drama in Denmark. The former PM and leader of the Moderate party, Lars Løkke Rasmussen, has been injured when his boat hit a bridge. Apparently due to high water the boat got stuck under a bridge where it would normally pass comfortably under. He got a swollen hand and his daughter was taken to hospital with grazes.

    Moderation in all things . . . including boating.

    Perhaps he should have Løkke where he go-e? (Hope the kid is ok.)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,354
    edited June 9

    Sadly the chicken run of various ministers has put paid to a lot of possible Portillo moments. I will still though be looking forward to seeing many tories in tears at 3am in various leisure centres on election night.

    Half of those in the Cabinet or attending Cabinet had majorities over 15000 based on their current seats and boundaries, and only 6 had majorities below 10,000.

    Except in the event of an extinction event most of them should make it, and that's before you factor in the chicken running.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    It;s a funny election as there is no 5% hurdle so lots of small parties won a single seat. FDP and, Linke and BSW won a handful.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,069

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I don't think he ever wanted or needed a 'tech-bro' career. People are only saying that because Nick Clegg did it.

    Sunak is more likely to create something like the Clinton Foundation and become a major NGO power broker.
    I don't see it really.

    Certainly he'll never lack for anything material, so that's good.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,126
    pigeon said:

    On the general topic of things being reported in the Mail, here's something else of interest:

    Jeremy Hunt has vowed to do more to help those on six-figure salaries if the Tories win the general election - and he clings on to his own seat.

    The Chancellor suggested, if he remains in charge of the Treasury beyond 4 July, he would be focused on removing 'cliff edges' for high earners in the tax system.

    Mr Hunt pointed to how the Government's offer of free childcare for parents is not available if one of them is earning over £100,000.

    ....

    'Around here the childcare reforms have been pretty popular,' the Chancellor said, as he spoke to the newspaper in Bramley, Surrey.

    'But people also do raise the fact that one person earning over £100,000 means you don't get access to them and that creates a cliff edge.

    'Because it was a big commitment we just couldn't afford to do more when I made the original announcement.

    'But those are things I think we definitely want to make progress on, yes.'

    He added: 'I've always said that if you want to be economically productive we have to get rid of the cliff edges in the tax system.

    'The removal of the personal allowance, the fact that childcare support stops when one person in a household is earning over £100,000.

    'If you speak to economists, they will say the most damaging things in the tax system are when you have things with a high marginal rate.

    'So it is absolutely on our list as something we would like to do more on.'


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13510505/Jeremy-Hunt-vows-help-six-figure-earners-Tories-win-general-election-Chancellor-survives-Portillo-moment-4-July.html

    Compare this to the incessant foot-dragging over the victimisation of Carer's Allowance claimants who, earning, shall we say, somewhat less than £100,000, have found themselves falling over a cliff edge for earning about 56p too much and being ruthlessly pursued by Government-appointed debt collectors.

    A good illustration of where Conservative priorities *appear* to lie - but it'll be fascinating to see which, if either, of these issues is deemed worthy of mention in the forthcoming manifesto.

    It's quite hard dealing with the whole nation. Where I live £100k pa is loads and loads. In much of London and the SE it isn't (SFAICS).
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    Speaking of odds, WHAT are the chances, that PB could - and will! - acquire a superfluous Boris Bus for conversion into the long-awaited PB GE BOTTLE BUS & TRAVELING THEATRE OF THE ABSURD?

    Asking for a psephologist friend! (Or is it a friendly psephologist? Naw - that's contradiction in terms!)
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,887

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I suspect that Infosys might take him.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    algarkirk said:

    pigeon said:

    On the general topic of things being reported in the Mail, here's something else of interest:

    Jeremy Hunt has vowed to do more to help those on six-figure salaries if the Tories win the general election - and he clings on to his own seat.

    The Chancellor suggested, if he remains in charge of the Treasury beyond 4 July, he would be focused on removing 'cliff edges' for high earners in the tax system.

    Mr Hunt pointed to how the Government's offer of free childcare for parents is not available if one of them is earning over £100,000.

    ....

    'Around here the childcare reforms have been pretty popular,' the Chancellor said, as he spoke to the newspaper in Bramley, Surrey.

    'But people also do raise the fact that one person earning over £100,000 means you don't get access to them and that creates a cliff edge.

    'Because it was a big commitment we just couldn't afford to do more when I made the original announcement.

    'But those are things I think we definitely want to make progress on, yes.'

    He added: 'I've always said that if you want to be economically productive we have to get rid of the cliff edges in the tax system.

    'The removal of the personal allowance, the fact that childcare support stops when one person in a household is earning over £100,000.

    'If you speak to economists, they will say the most damaging things in the tax system are when you have things with a high marginal rate.

    'So it is absolutely on our list as something we would like to do more on.'


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13510505/Jeremy-Hunt-vows-help-six-figure-earners-Tories-win-general-election-Chancellor-survives-Portillo-moment-4-July.html

    Compare this to the incessant foot-dragging over the victimisation of Carer's Allowance claimants who, earning, shall we say, somewhat less than £100,000, have found themselves falling over a cliff edge for earning about 56p too much and being ruthlessly pursued by Government-appointed debt collectors.

    A good illustration of where Conservative priorities *appear* to lie - but it'll be fascinating to see which, if either, of these issues is deemed worthy of mention in the forthcoming manifesto.

    It's quite hard dealing with the whole nation. Where I live £100k pa is loads and loads. In much of London and the SE it isn't (SFAICS).
    £100k is more than double the median London wage, which is about £44k.
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,653

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I don't think he ever wanted or needed a 'tech-bro' career. People are only saying that because Nick Clegg did it.

    Sunak is more likely to create something like the Clinton Foundation and become a major NGO power broker.
    I don't see it really.

    Certainly he'll never lack for anything material, so that's good.
    It's not about the money, though. He's a driven, ambitious man. He's not going to be putting his trotters up at the age of 44.

    He's genuinely interested in technology and finance, and I'd fully expect him to pursue a career in that - not for the money (although there will be plenty of that) but for the success in a field he knows and has already had a good career in before Parliament.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,887
    algarkirk said:

    pigeon said:

    On the general topic of things being reported in the Mail, here's something else of interest:

    Jeremy Hunt has vowed to do more to help those on six-figure salaries if the Tories win the general election - and he clings on to his own seat.

    The Chancellor suggested, if he remains in charge of the Treasury beyond 4 July, he would be focused on removing 'cliff edges' for high earners in the tax system.

    Mr Hunt pointed to how the Government's offer of free childcare for parents is not available if one of them is earning over £100,000.

    ....

    'Around here the childcare reforms have been pretty popular,' the Chancellor said, as he spoke to the newspaper in Bramley, Surrey.

    'But people also do raise the fact that one person earning over £100,000 means you don't get access to them and that creates a cliff edge.

    'Because it was a big commitment we just couldn't afford to do more when I made the original announcement.

    'But those are things I think we definitely want to make progress on, yes.'

    He added: 'I've always said that if you want to be economically productive we have to get rid of the cliff edges in the tax system.

    'The removal of the personal allowance, the fact that childcare support stops when one person in a household is earning over £100,000.

    'If you speak to economists, they will say the most damaging things in the tax system are when you have things with a high marginal rate.

    'So it is absolutely on our list as something we would like to do more on.'


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13510505/Jeremy-Hunt-vows-help-six-figure-earners-Tories-win-general-election-Chancellor-survives-Portillo-moment-4-July.html

    Compare this to the incessant foot-dragging over the victimisation of Carer's Allowance claimants who, earning, shall we say, somewhat less than £100,000, have found themselves falling over a cliff edge for earning about 56p too much and being ruthlessly pursued by Government-appointed debt collectors.

    A good illustration of where Conservative priorities *appear* to lie - but it'll be fascinating to see which, if either, of these issues is deemed worthy of mention in the forthcoming manifesto.

    It's quite hard dealing with the whole nation. Where I live £100k pa is loads and loads. In much of London and the SE it isn't (SFAICS).
    It's still a lot of money!

    Nonetheless it would be wise to smooth out the irregularities, so bring back the personal allowance for everyone and start the 45% band at £100 000 or so etc.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,884
    Any recommendations for results websites for EU?

    Ideally one that sets out national results for each MS.
  • Options
    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 982
    Tres said:

    It won't be a Sunak moment if we are discussing it now. Portillo was campaigning in Scotland a couple of days before the election in 1997 rather than shoring up the vote in his own constituency (source: he visited the supermarket where I had a part-time job). Plus the PM usually has a huge incumbency bounce.

    Portillo was in Yeovil visiting Westlands Helicopters on the Monday or Tuesday before the 1997 election which seemed like an odd constituency to visit, though I suppose it makes sense as he was Defence Secretary.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,138

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    I don't think he ever wanted or needed a 'tech-bro' career. People are only saying that because Nick Clegg did it.

    Sunak is more likely to create something like the Clinton Foundation and become a major NGO power broker.
    I don't see it really.

    Certainly he'll never lack for anything material, so that's good.
    It's not about the money, though. He's a driven, ambitious man. He's not going to be putting his trotters up at the age of 44.

    He's genuinely interested in technology and finance, and I'd fully expect him to pursue a career in that - not for the money (although there will be plenty of that) but for the success in a field he knows and has already had a good career in before Parliament.
    It’s also something he is passionate about AND expert. His summit at Bletchley showed that. He knows whereof he speaks - Bletchley is probably his one positive legacy and it’s not nothing

    He doesn’t need money so he won’t go back into straight finance - he will do this - and I don’t blame him. It’s THE area to be - especially for a tech savvy wonk - which is what he is
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,249


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    That looks like a NOTA vote shifting from Greens to AfD, who have the advantage of not having to sully themselves with actual government.
  • Options
    Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,318
    On the header, I agree Sunak losing feels a stretch.

    *However*, a few more MRPs showing it could be in reach, along with his status allowing by-election-levels of focus and tactical voting in a decapitation mission, mean it shouldn't be ruled out.

    The one fly in the ointment may be ambiguity over tactical voting strategy, given the closeness for second last time - although Electoral Calculus now puts Lab clearly in second. May depend how the LDs play it.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878

    Any recommendations for results websites for EU?

    Ideally one that sets out national results for each MS.

    https://europeelects.eu/ep2024/
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,423
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    pigeon said:

    On the general topic of things being reported in the Mail, here's something else of interest:

    Jeremy Hunt has vowed to do more to help those on six-figure salaries if the Tories win the general election - and he clings on to his own seat.

    The Chancellor suggested, if he remains in charge of the Treasury beyond 4 July, he would be focused on removing 'cliff edges' for high earners in the tax system.

    Mr Hunt pointed to how the Government's offer of free childcare for parents is not available if one of them is earning over £100,000.

    ....

    'Around here the childcare reforms have been pretty popular,' the Chancellor said, as he spoke to the newspaper in Bramley, Surrey.

    'But people also do raise the fact that one person earning over £100,000 means you don't get access to them and that creates a cliff edge.

    'Because it was a big commitment we just couldn't afford to do more when I made the original announcement.

    'But those are things I think we definitely want to make progress on, yes.'

    He added: 'I've always said that if you want to be economically productive we have to get rid of the cliff edges in the tax system.

    'The removal of the personal allowance, the fact that childcare support stops when one person in a household is earning over £100,000.

    'If you speak to economists, they will say the most damaging things in the tax system are when you have things with a high marginal rate.

    'So it is absolutely on our list as something we would like to do more on.'


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13510505/Jeremy-Hunt-vows-help-six-figure-earners-Tories-win-general-election-Chancellor-survives-Portillo-moment-4-July.html

    Compare this to the incessant foot-dragging over the victimisation of Carer's Allowance claimants who, earning, shall we say, somewhat less than £100,000, have found themselves falling over a cliff edge for earning about 56p too much and being ruthlessly pursued by Government-appointed debt collectors.

    A good illustration of where Conservative priorities *appear* to lie - but it'll be fascinating to see which, if either, of these issues is deemed worthy of mention in the forthcoming manifesto.

    It's quite hard dealing with the whole nation. Where I live £100k pa is loads and loads. In much of London and the SE it isn't (SFAICS).
    £100k is more than double the median London wage, which is about £44k.
    £97400 before tax puts someone in the top 4% of those having liability for income tax:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax

    £50000 gets you into the top 16%.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    That looks like a NOTA vote shifting from Greens to AfD, who have the advantage of not having to sully themselves with actual government.
    Turnout was up 3%

    The East is still voting very different from the West. Big votes for AfD and BSW ( on 6% from nowhere )
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,074


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    That looks like a NOTA vote shifting from Greens to AfD, who have the advantage of not having to sully themselves with actual government.
    Maybe a reaction against green energy policies leading Germany into trouble.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,842


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    That looks like a NOTA vote shifting from Greens to AfD, who have the advantage of not having to sully themselves with actual government.
    Or have government sullied by them.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,042


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    Ooh @Alanbrooke and @williamglenn getting all excited about a big tilt to the right in the Euros. Who'd have thought it?

    Come on lads, suck it up we left!
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,653
    pigeon said:

    On the general topic of things being reported in the Mail, here's something else of interest:

    Jeremy Hunt has vowed to do more to help those on six-figure salaries if the Tories win the general election - and he clings on to his own seat....

    A minor point but, in the extremely unlikely event the Tories do turn it around and win the General Election, Hunt almost certainly wouldn't just "cling on" to his seat but win it quite easily. It's around about 30th on the Lib Dem target list so realistic on current polling (though perhaps top end of ambitions even then). But they aren't going to be getting close if Sunak does a Lazarus between now and 4th July.
  • Options
    TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 198
    Fewer than 4 is 1, 2 or 3. 89% of 4 weeks is less than 4 weeks.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,108
    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,459
    edited June 9
    Hmm.

    My neighbour with the slightly different number has just dropped off the Political leaflets that have been delivered to the wrong address, because all the 20 or so houses in between look the other way.

    So the Ashfield Independents are the only people who know where I live, and that is because they deliver umpteen of everything everywhere all the time by hand.

    I can hide but I can't run. Bugger.

    (I do get some btw.)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    Ooh @Alanbrooke and @williamglenn getting all excited about a big tilt to the right in the Euros. Who'd have thought it?

    Come on lads, suck it up we left!
    Well Im watching German TV and reporting what they say, if you dont want to know skip the posts
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,978
    Having the PM as your MP is a matter of local pride and PMs have polled decently even as they lost an election, Major remained popular in Huntingdon and, despite the SNP wave already being underway, Brown got a gravity defying result across the whole of Scotland.

    I'm not sure whether Richmond will come to see Sunak as an embarrassment or will be bloody minded in defence of their man. It's Yorkshire, so the latter is quite likely, though Sunak's affinity to Yorkshire is limited such that it probably doesn't extend beyond his constituency. I'd also be wondering if Southampton will swing less than other places.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,112
    Arthur Balfour, who was Conservative leader when losing his seat in the 1906 GE, suffered a 22.5% swing to the Liberals. A 22.5% swing to Labour would probably mean Sunak survives but not by much.

    Deltapoll and We Think have UNS of 19% from Conservative to Labour so that would stretch to 25% in some seats which would put Sunak at risk but like most others, I can't see it.

    Laura Kuennsberg, who seems happy to die in the Tory ditch, keeps reminding me there are four weeks still to go - well, three and a half effectively. The next debate isn't until June 20th and while Claire Coutinho may want "weekly debates" we know this is a campaign ploy hoping Starmer will make some horrendous gaffe which they can exploit, not that the Prime Minister has done one of those recently...

    Tomorrow, I imagine, we'll see any pulchritude of polls headed by Redfield & Wilton.

    Finally, apologies for my error in the previous - the next question is, subject to the usual laws around slander and libel and the requirement to have an imprint, are there any restrictions on what you can put in an Election Address? If you wanted to promote your company's business, could you do so?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
    Most of Pagan's posts are hardly readable.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,074
    edited June 9
    stodge said:

    Arthur Balfour, who was Conservative leader when losing his seat in the 1906 GE, suffered a 22.5% swing to the Liberals.

    No one remembers the Balfour declaration these days.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,138


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    Ooh @Alanbrooke and @williamglenn getting all excited about a big tilt to the right in the Euros. Who'd have thought it?

    Come on lads, suck it up we left!
    Er, this a politics website for politics obsessives and we love elections. And several million people in the uk have a vote in this election - Northern Ireland, EU citizens. Plus it impacts seriously on our elections

    Are we meant to ignore it because you don’t like the rightwards drift?

    Perhaps you’d prefer it if we also ignored the POTUS elex as well?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,138
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
    I believe this comment is written in native Cornish
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316
    German Greens biggest losers lost 8% of vote. SPD down 1.8% FDP also down.

    Looks like government parties have been hammered
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    Pro_Rata said:

    Having the PM as your MP is a matter of local pride and PMs have polled decently even as they lost an election, Major remained popular in Huntingdon and, despite the SNP wave already being underway, Brown got a gravity defying result across the whole of Scotland.

    I'm not sure whether Richmond will come to see Sunak as an embarrassment or will be bloody minded in defence of their man. It's Yorkshire, so the latter is quite likely, though Sunak's affinity to Yorkshire is limited such that it probably doesn't extend beyond his constituency. I'd also be wondering if Southampton will swing less than other places.

    In 2010 there was no SNP wave. SNP's vote rose very modestly, 2.2pp up. Labour's rose across Scotland by more, 2.5pp.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,108
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
    No its simple statement...our gdp didnt grow by 4% a year while we were in the eu since 2000.....the remainer lie is we lost 4% gdp somehow by leaving even though our gdp has continued rising. If it didnt rise by 4% while we were in the eu claiming it would have done is people like you just talking bollocks or as I would put it being a fucking lying piece of shit
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,133
    edited June 9
    stodge said:

    Arthur Balfour, who was Conservative leader when losing his seat in the 1906 GE, suffered a 22.5% swing to the Liberals. A 22.5% swing to Labour would probably mean Sunak survives but not by much.

    Deltapoll and We Think have UNS of 19% from Conservative to Labour so that would stretch to 25% in some seats which would put Sunak at risk but like most others, I can't see it.

    Laura Kuennsberg, who seems happy to die in the Tory ditch, keeps reminding me there are four weeks still to go - well, three and a half effectively. The next debate isn't until June 20th and while Claire Coutinho may want "weekly debates" we know this is a campaign ploy hoping Starmer will make some horrendous gaffe which they can exploit, not that the Prime Minister has done one of those recently...

    Tomorrow, I imagine, we'll see any pulchritude of polls headed by Redfield & Wilton.

    Finally, apologies for my error in the previous - the next question is, subject to the usual laws around slander and libel and the requirement to have an imprint, are there any restrictions on what you can put in an Election Address? If you wanted to promote your company's business, could you do so?

    Re: business promotion, until recently here in WA State we had a perennial candidate, "Mike the Mover" who ran for Governor, Lt. Gov, whatever, for express purpose of promoting his . . . wait for it . . . moving company.

    Has been (or at least was) traditional over many years and in many places in USA, for lawyers to run for some office to promote their legal practice, in environment where they were banned by bar association rules from doing much if any advertising aside from being in the (old-school) telephone yellow pages or similar.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
    No its simple statement...our gdp didnt grow by 4% a year while we were in the eu since 2000.....the remainer lie is we lost 4% gdp somehow by leaving even though our gdp has continued rising. If it didnt rise by 4% while we were in the eu claiming it would have done is people like you just talking bollocks or as I would put it being a fucking lying piece of shit
    :lol:
    I think you missed your last dose of thorazine
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,237
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't want to pile negativity on to Sunak - the man is human and I do not take any pleasure in his current troubles.

    But I do wonder how much news of this fiasco will spread California-wards, and whether it might actually affect Sunak's long-touted tech-bro career post-10 Downing Street.

    @SeanJonesKC

    Does there come a point where Sunak’s performance is so absurdly poor that Silicon Valley firms lose interest in his CV?
    They don’t care about performance

    They only care if people don’t return his calls (that’s why Cameron took up the FCDO job - to refresh his contacts and clean off the Greenswill).

    Difficult to judge from the outside
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,653
    stodge said:

    Arthur Balfour, who was Conservative leader when losing his seat in the 1906 GE, suffered a 22.5% swing to the Liberals. A 22.5% swing to Labour would probably mean Sunak survives but not by much.

    Deltapoll and We Think have UNS of 19% from Conservative to Labour so that would stretch to 25% in some seats which would put Sunak at risk but like most others, I can't see it.

    Laura Kuennsberg, who seems happy to die in the Tory ditch, keeps reminding me there are four weeks still to go - well, three and a half effectively. The next debate isn't until June 20th and while Claire Coutinho may want "weekly debates" we know this is a campaign ploy hoping Starmer will make some horrendous gaffe which they can exploit, not that the Prime Minister has done one of those recently...

    Tomorrow, I imagine, we'll see any pulchritude of polls headed by Redfield & Wilton.

    Finally, apologies for my error in the previous - the next question is, subject to the usual laws around slander and libel and the requirement to have an imprint, are there any restrictions on what you can put in an Election Address? If you wanted to promote your company's business, could you do so?

    The election freepost, delivered by the Royal Mail, must contain, "matter relating to the election only" under section 91(1) of the Representation of the People Act 1983.

    It would be a bloody good deal for a free commercial delivery were that not the case - basically the cost of the £500 deposit for delivery a leaflet to every household in the constituency (or every individual if addressed). But that provision means the potential scam for a local business doesn't work.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,559
    kinabalu said:


    CDU 30%

    SDP 14

    AfD 17

    Greens 12

    Previous European elections:

    CDU - 28.9%
    Greens - 20.5%
    SPD - 15.8%
    AfD - 11.0%
    That looks like a NOTA vote shifting from Greens to AfD, who have the advantage of not having to sully themselves with actual government.
    Or have government sullied by them.
    Merkel onwards is now seen as pissing away the German Miracle by many. Part of it was their fault, but a big chunk was Events.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,316
    edited June 9
    In the other vote counting, nearly half the seats counted and Sinn Fein have only got about 7% of them,

    FF and FG streaking ahead

    https://www.rte.ie/news/
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,878
    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
    I believe this comment is written in native Cornish
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cun-LZvOTdw
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,108
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Thinking 100k is an average salary is no different to the remainer lie that we lost 4% gdp when even where we were in the eu the last time our gdp increased by 4% was in 2000

    Is this a riddle?
    No its simple statement...our gdp didnt grow by 4% a year while we were in the eu since 2000.....the remainer lie is we lost 4% gdp somehow by leaving even though our gdp has continued rising. If it didnt rise by 4% while we were in the eu claiming it would have done is people like you just talking bollocks or as I would put it being a fucking lying piece of shit
    :lol:
    I think you missed your last dose of thorazine
    Oh wow ad hominem because you know I am right and you can't argue from facts.....yeah talk to the hand
This discussion has been closed.