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Bet accordingly to this Robert Peston tweet – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited June 8 in General
imageBet accordingly to this Robert Peston tweet – politicalbetting.com

Hopefully Robert Peston’s understanding of Rishi Sunak’s comments is better than his understanding of photographs.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    First?
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    I am on December at 6 and January at 20, thinking of hedging on Nov at 1.9
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    So we'll get Trick or Treat canvassing night?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    One wonders what the King will make of an election on his birthday.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004
    Bet against whatever Peston says?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    ToryJim said:

    One wonders what the King will make of an election on his birthday.

    He will be happy with it of that’s his “once a year” day with Camilla but will be a bit of a waste if they only do it at Christmas.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,422
    Without seeing a recording of what the Prime Minister actually said on Loose Women, are we sure Peston is correct that Rishi ruled out September?

    Although I still believe there are 36 weeks to the general election on Thursday, 23 January.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    It's a Twatter message. By Pesto.

    What you've got there is cube root of Jack and Shit. And Jack's left town....

    Do you mind if I use that?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,422
    AlsoLei said:
    Enunciate, man, enunciate!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    AlsoLei said:
    He seems to say Got or Not for your holiday
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128
    edited May 16
    DougSeal said:

    It's a Twatter message. By Pesto.

    What you've got there is cube root of Jack and Shit. And Jack's left town....

    Do you mind if I use that?
    It's not mine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJk9wzNz6fU
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    AlsoLei said:
    Also, which way does their viewership vote ?

    Maybe he wants to have the vote while they're on holiday.

    It's Peston anyway, so I wouldn't read anything into it other than random noise.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    megasaur said:

    AlsoLei said:
    He seems to say Got or Not for your holiday
    This is the man who poured buckets of malicious schoolground bully snot over SKS the other day for a much less important hiccup in speech.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Sunak says he will remain as MP whatever election result
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/may/16/labour-keir-starmer-conservatives-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-sue-gray-covid-inquiry

    Not if he loses his seat.
    Basic logic fail.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041
    Nigelb said:

    Sunak says he will remain as MP whatever election result
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/may/16/labour-keir-starmer-conservatives-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-sue-gray-covid-inquiry

    Not if he loses his seat.
    Basic logic fail.

    Depends how the question was posed. He might have been asked if he would resign from the Commons if the Tories lost the election. That would require him to have kept his seat.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    AlsoLei said:
    Enunciate, man, enunciate!
    Doubtless there will be as many comments on here about Sunak's enunciation failure as there were about Starmer's stumble at PMQ's yesterday.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    It's a Twatter message. By Pesto.

    What you've got there is cube root of Jack and Shit. And Jack's left town....

    Do you mind if I use that?
    It's not mine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJk9wzNz6fU
    That's one of my wife's favourite films. Don't tell her I missed the reference.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    We are all procrastinators and instinctively against procrastination but sometimes it is the rational bet. Frit and ditherer are baked in anyway so why not hang on in the absurd hope that, say, someone sks failed to prosecute sets fire to an orphanage in January?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Trump's lawyer Blanche asks another question he shouldn't have.

    Now to Cohen's testimony to Congress about whether he ever requested a pardon:
    False, says Cohen—I never asked for it. I spoke to my attorney about it because we had seen on TV Trump talking about pre-pardoning, so I asked my attorney if this was legit

    https://twitter.com/TylerMcBrien/status/1791125264342163475
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,866
    Nigelb said:

    Sunak says he will remain as MP whatever election result
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/may/16/labour-keir-starmer-conservatives-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-sue-gray-covid-inquiry

    Not if he loses his seat.
    Basic logic fail.

    It's a slightly interesting answer, in that normally someone in his position would use the line "We are not going to lose, we are going to win".... and so on, and of course never make the commitment.

    And so the question is whether he has just made a mistake through inexperience, or, contrary to almost everyone's assumption he actually wants to stay. I find it hard to believe.

    BTW the use of the term "of course" by politicians has more or less never the same meaning it does when used by people speaking human in a non ironic context.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,061
    I have laid Peston. Oooooh missus!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,128
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    It's a Twatter message. By Pesto.

    What you've got there is cube root of Jack and Shit. And Jack's left town....

    Do you mind if I use that?
    It's not mine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJk9wzNz6fU
    That's one of my wife's favourite films. Don't tell her I missed the reference.
    Hail to the king, baby.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sunak says he will remain as MP whatever election result
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/may/16/labour-keir-starmer-conservatives-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-sue-gray-covid-inquiry

    Not if he loses his seat.
    Basic logic fail.

    Depends how the question was posed. He might have been asked if he would resign from the Commons if the Tories lost the election. That would require him to have kept his seat.
    If you lose the election will you stand down as an MP?

    But it's a safe seat. You wouldn't expect him to qualify the answer, which would make him sound really worried.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Well now.

    Three-quarters of Texans think ‘extreme conservative agenda’ has captured state, poll finds
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4667534-texas-poll-conservative-agenda/
    Conservative Republicans’ attacks on gun control, abortion and climate-friendly investing practices are deeply unpopular — and costing Texas billions of dollars, according to a new poll.

    The findings by progressive advocacy group Unlocking America’s Future (UAF) included a survey that found that nearly three-quarters of Texans said they believe their state has lost focus on pressing problems in favor of “an extreme conservative agenda.”

    The survey shows that “Texans do not support leaders who ignore real issues to push an extreme agenda, and we’re seeing that trend nationally,” Kyle Herrig, a spokesperson for UAF, told The Hill.

    An accompanying report argues that a conservative crackdown on policies such as climate-friendly investing is throwing the brakes on the state’s booming economy.

    “Every time lawmakers pass an extreme right-wing law, they send the message to businesses and investors that Texas is closed for business. Take your millions elsewhere,” its authors wrote.

    “Whatever your outlook on what once led to the ‘Texas Miracle’ – today, it is under threat.”

    The idea of the Texas Miracle was born after the 2008 recession, when the financial crisis that left mass layoffs and deserted housing tracts across the Sun Belt broke against the energy boom and “the de facto industrial policy” of then-Gov. Rick Perry (R), as one journalist told The Texas Tribune.
    That policy, for example, laid the groundwork for Texas’s nation-leading renewables industry, which was established under Republican rule.

    Over the past three years, however, Republican leaders including Perry’s successor, Gov. Greg Abbott, or Attorney General Ken Paxton, have told a different story of Texas’s economic success: that it relies on the unchecked ability of the fossil fuel and firearms industries to access capital...
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
    Seb James was in the (in)famous Bullingdon Club photo with Dave & Boris

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/1791063471875924183
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    megasaur said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sunak says he will remain as MP whatever election result
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/may/16/labour-keir-starmer-conservatives-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-sue-gray-covid-inquiry

    Not if he loses his seat.
    Basic logic fail.

    Depends how the question was posed. He might have been asked if he would resign from the Commons if the Tories lost the election. That would require him to have kept his seat.
    If you lose the election will you stand down as an MP?

    But it's a safe seat. You wouldn't expect him to qualify the answer, which would make him sound really worried.
    No, I think it's basic manners not to take the electorate for granted - i.e I am concentrating on winning the election, in my own constituency and across the country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    A major donor who hasn't been given a peerage or at least a knighthood? I'm pretty sure that's against the rules for political donations, maybe a switch to Labour will rectify that for him.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    ToryJim said:

    One wonders what the King will make of an election on his birthday.

    Why would he care ?
    He doesn't get a vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Nigelb said:

    Well now.

    Three-quarters of Texans think ‘extreme conservative agenda’ has captured state, poll finds
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4667534-texas-poll-conservative-agenda/
    Conservative Republicans’ attacks on gun control, abortion and climate-friendly investing practices are deeply unpopular — and costing Texas billions of dollars, according to a new poll.

    The findings by progressive advocacy group Unlocking America’s Future (UAF) included a survey that found that nearly three-quarters of Texans said they believe their state has lost focus on pressing problems in favor of “an extreme conservative agenda.”

    The survey shows that “Texans do not support leaders who ignore real issues to push an extreme agenda, and we’re seeing that trend nationally,” Kyle Herrig, a spokesperson for UAF, told The Hill.

    An accompanying report argues that a conservative crackdown on policies such as climate-friendly investing is throwing the brakes on the state’s booming economy.

    “Every time lawmakers pass an extreme right-wing law, they send the message to businesses and investors that Texas is closed for business. Take your millions elsewhere,” its authors wrote.

    “Whatever your outlook on what once led to the ‘Texas Miracle’ – today, it is under threat.”

    The idea of the Texas Miracle was born after the 2008 recession, when the financial crisis that left mass layoffs and deserted housing tracts across the Sun Belt broke against the energy boom and “the de facto industrial policy” of then-Gov. Rick Perry (R), as one journalist told The Texas Tribune.
    That policy, for example, laid the groundwork for Texas’s nation-leading renewables industry, which was established under Republican rule.

    Over the past three years, however, Republican leaders including Perry’s successor, Gov. Greg Abbott, or Attorney General Ken Paxton, have told a different story of Texas’s economic success: that it relies on the unchecked ability of the fossil fuel and firearms industries to access capital...

    If they continue to win the State, they'll learn the lesson that they can push personal priorities above everything else, that's what extremists do. So the question is whether people will moan about the agenda or actually do something about it.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    edited May 16
    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Nigelb said:

    Trump's lawyer Blanche asks another question he shouldn't have.

    Now to Cohen's testimony to Congress about whether he ever requested a pardon:
    False, says Cohen—I never asked for it. I spoke to my attorney about it because we had seen on TV Trump talking about pre-pardoning, so I asked my attorney if this was legit

    https://twitter.com/TylerMcBrien/status/1791125264342163475

    Seems like an odd direction to go down in questioning. The overall strategy has to be to paint Cohen as unreliable and motivated to lie, just as he has lied before only this time to hurt Trump, since despite a lot of corroboration that there was business records fraud there are still a few elements for which only Cohen's testimony can speak to Trump's personal intent (which is why a conviction may not be a slam dunk even though the checks clearly were fraudulent), but some of the questions don't really seem to build that narrative.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    megasaur said:

    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/

    That chart demonstrates that the Conservatives did a pretty good job last year if you ask me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer?

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I think this is broadly correct. For all the mockery of the occasional efforts to win back the right flank with gimmicks I think it makes a degree of sense because the centre has already turned away from the Tories and probably is not coming back.

    The problem is even if flights are suddenly going off to Rwanda every day will people flock back? Voters don't do gratitude. They also don't always punish you for failure, which is nice, if they like you enough, but when they don't like you, success only helps a little. People expect you to succeed (which is rather unrealistic of them, admittedly).
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    rcs1000 said:

    megasaur said:

    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/

    That chart demonstrates that the Conservatives did a pretty good job last year if you ask me.
    And that reinstating T May would lead to a landslide
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,404
    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
    Seb James was in the (in)famous Bullingdon Club photo with Dave & Boris

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/1791063471875924183
    D'y'know, I'm a bit upset by that. If you are going to do the whole posh-lad dripping-with-entitlement chinless-wonder thing, then at least stay loyal to your own. Don't come over from Der Sunakbunker waving a white flag and going "d'y'know I never believed in Sunakism really." Yes you did sir, yes you did.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I didn't say it would work, but it's pretty obviously what he and they are aiming at. And, of course, minimising the defeat will be on his mind.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    Cicero said:

    A little anecdote;

    I just came out of a meeting of the local chamber of commerce devoted to Brexit.

    Its worse than the Tories worst nightmares. Lifetime Tories cursing the Tory Party, absolute contempt for Brexit, Determination that change should be radical, including demands for PR.

    I think for every month Sunak leaves it the Lib Dems will gain seats beyond their current forecast. Plenty want Farage´s head on a stick. It was actually quite sobering to see conservative and Conservative people so apoplectic.

    Why would anyone attend such a meeting if they didn't hold those view about the subject?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I've just thought of a strategy that might work. Sunak could literally dissolve the Conservative party and use its election funds to bankroll the campaigns of independents who would only have to sign up to a few simple pledges (including voting against Starmer in any confidence vote) but otherwise not be affiliated with any party.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 16
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I doubt either BJO or myself will vote Conservative either

    I’ve never said I’m ‘afraid’ of Sir Keir as PM, I just thought, when he was up against Boris, that he’d never get the chance to be one. I still think he’ll be a drag on the campaign, and that he is a dishonest creep, but it doesn’t bother me that much if Labour win.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,500
    rcs1000 said:

    megasaur said:

    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/

    That chart demonstrates that the Conservatives did a pretty good job last year if you ask me.
    In part because of the Albania returns deal (kicked in at the start of May) and then July & August were unseasonably wet & rainy, with poor visibility for crossings.

    This was at the core of Moonrabbit's argument for an April election: there may not actually be any significant drop at all this summer, especially if we get better weather than last year.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,457
    rcs1000 said:

    megasaur said:

    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/

    That chart demonstrates that the Conservatives did a pretty good job last year if you ask me.
    Wasn't that largely due to the boring returns deal with Albania? Which might be tricky to reproduce.

    Maybe Sunak's best chance was sometime in 2023. The Trussterversary messes things a bit, but perhaps October 2023 would have given a bad but not fatal defeat.

    As for Rwanda, it's vanishingly unlikely to work as a boat stopper. But the government have persuaded themselves that it will, which is the important thing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,404

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I've just thought of a strategy that might work. Sunak could literally dissolve the Conservative party and use its election funds to bankroll the campaigns of independents who would only have to sign up to a few simple pledges (including voting against Starmer in any confidence vote) but otherwise not be affiliated with any party.
    You've re-invented the party list. Post-Soviet Warsaw Pact are on the phone, going "hey! We were doing that in the 1990s!"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I've just thought of a strategy that might work. Sunak could literally dissolve the Conservative party and use its election funds to bankroll the campaigns of independents who would only have to sign up to a few simple pledges (including voting against Starmer in any confidence vote) but otherwise not be affiliated with any party.
    You've re-invented the party list. Post-Soviet Warsaw Pact are on the phone, going "hey! We were doing that in the 1990s!"
    Solidarity would be a good name for it.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    viewcode said:

    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
    Seb James was in the (in)famous Bullingdon Club photo with Dave & Boris

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/1791063471875924183
    D'y'know, I'm a bit upset by that. If you are going to do the whole posh-lad dripping-with-entitlement chinless-wonder thing, then at least stay loyal to your own. Don't come over from Der Sunakbunker waving a white flag and going "d'y'know I never believed in Sunakism really." Yes you did sir, yes you did.
    As the Natalie Elphicke furore has shown, there's a difference between defection and conversion. Defection is tactical, conversion is repentance. Unless of course it is a deathbed conversion, in which case it's cynical. And arguably any conversion at this stage in the dying days of the Conservative administration is cynical.

    People should be allowed to change their point of view over time - anything else and you just get entrenched fundamentalism on both sides. The question is, how do you demonstrate that your conversion is genuine and not cynical?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    I think the issue of immigration generally is very important to the British public. But not so important that a drop in, or even a cessation of, small boats will save the Conservatives.

    The discontent with the Tory Party goes far beyond that issue. While it is proper that it is considered (and I completely accept it is becoming more important to voters' minds) it is overemphasised by the Conservative Party and on here. People are not going to forgive the Tories on the economy and health, or forget that they've had 14/15 years to sort out immigration, if the flights to Rwanda are successful.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363

    Cicero said:

    A little anecdote;

    I just came out of a meeting of the local chamber of commerce devoted to Brexit.

    Its worse than the Tories worst nightmares. Lifetime Tories cursing the Tory Party, absolute contempt for Brexit, Determination that change should be radical, including demands for PR.

    I think for every month Sunak leaves it the Lib Dems will gain seats beyond their current forecast. Plenty want Farage´s head on a stick. It was actually quite sobering to see conservative and Conservative people so apoplectic.

    Why would anyone attend such a meeting if they didn't hold those view about the subject?
    Because it affects their bank balances.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    A little anecdote;

    I just came out of a meeting of the local chamber of commerce devoted to Brexit.

    Its worse than the Tories worst nightmares. Lifetime Tories cursing the Tory Party, absolute contempt for Brexit, Determination that change should be radical, including demands for PR.

    I think for every month Sunak leaves it the Lib Dems will gain seats beyond their current forecast. Plenty want Farage´s head on a stick. It was actually quite sobering to see conservative and Conservative people so apoplectic.

    Why would anyone attend such a meeting if they didn't hold those view about the subject?
    Because it affects their bank balances.
    Therefore it's a self-selecting group of people with a grievance.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer?

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    I think this is broadly correct. For all the mockery of the occasional efforts to win back the right flank with gimmicks I think it makes a degree of sense because the centre has already turned away from the Tories and probably is not coming back.

    The problem is even if flights are suddenly going off to Rwanda every day will people flock back? Voters don't do gratitude. They also don't always punish you for failure, which is nice, if they like you enough, but when they don't like you, success only helps a little. People expect you to succeed (which is rather unrealistic of them, admittedly).
    Weirdly Rwanda could help the Tories more at the next election. If Labour pull the plug, even after a few flights leave and then EU countries start doing a Rwanda (the details might be different but the general public won’t notice) and small boats keep coming under Labour it puts Labour in a tricky situation which the Tories can use.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
    Seb James was in the (in)famous Bullingdon Club photo with Dave & Boris

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/1791063471875924183
    D'y'know, I'm a bit upset by that. If you are going to do the whole posh-lad dripping-with-entitlement chinless-wonder thing, then at least stay loyal to your own. Don't come over from Der Sunakbunker waving a white flag and going "d'y'know I never believed in Sunakism really." Yes you did sir, yes you did.
    As the Natalie Elphicke furore has shown, there's a difference between defection and conversion. Defection is tactical, conversion is repentance. Unless of course it is a deathbed conversion, in which case it's cynical. And arguably any conversion at this stage in the dying days of the Conservative administration is cynical.

    People should be allowed to change their point of view over time - anything else and you just get entrenched fundamentalism on both sides. The question is, how do you demonstrate that your conversion is genuine and not cynical?
    It's a bit 'what first attracted the CEO of a large national chain to donate to and schmooze the likely next government making policy on businesses?'
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    Based on recent posts I think BJO will be going for Galloway's bunch.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Gong, peerage or influence. The only reasons for large political donations. Will always be grubby.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363

    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    A little anecdote;

    I just came out of a meeting of the local chamber of commerce devoted to Brexit.

    Its worse than the Tories worst nightmares. Lifetime Tories cursing the Tory Party, absolute contempt for Brexit, Determination that change should be radical, including demands for PR.

    I think for every month Sunak leaves it the Lib Dems will gain seats beyond their current forecast. Plenty want Farage´s head on a stick. It was actually quite sobering to see conservative and Conservative people so apoplectic.

    Why would anyone attend such a meeting if they didn't hold those view about the subject?
    Because it affects their bank balances.
    Therefore it's a self-selecting group of people with a grievance.
    You don't know if it's 1% or 100% of the C of C. Nor do I, but normally C of Cs don't have meetings on how crap Brexit is. They're not *supposed* to.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    I think the issue of immigration generally is very important to the British public. But not so important that a drop in, or even a cessation of, small boats will save the Conservatives.

    The discontent with the Tory Party goes far beyond that issue. While it is proper that it is considered (and I completely accept it is becoming more important to voters' minds) it is overemphasised by the Conservative Party and on here. People are not going to forgive the Tories on the economy and health, or forget that they've had 14/15 years to sort out immigration, if the flights to Rwanda are successful.

    I think the last sentence is the key one: the Conservatives have been in power for almost fifteen years. We voted to leave the EU eight years ago.

    Why should anyone trust them now they're suddenly getting religious on immigration levels?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    Based on recent posts I think BJO will be going for Galloway's bunch.
    The Green's don't care enough about Gaza, huh?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
    Seb James was in the (in)famous Bullingdon Club photo with Dave & Boris

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/1791063471875924183
    D'y'know, I'm a bit upset by that. If you are going to do the whole posh-lad dripping-with-entitlement chinless-wonder thing, then at least stay loyal to your own. Don't come over from Der Sunakbunker waving a white flag and going "d'y'know I never believed in Sunakism really." Yes you did sir, yes you did.
    As the Natalie Elphicke furore has shown, there's a difference between defection and conversion. Defection is tactical, conversion is repentance. Unless of course it is a deathbed conversion, in which case it's cynical. And arguably any conversion at this stage in the dying days of the Conservative administration is cynical.

    People should be allowed to change their point of view over time - anything else and you just get entrenched fundamentalism on both sides. The question is, how do you demonstrate that your conversion is genuine and not cynical?
    I believe the normal way is to change your name from "Anthony" to "Tony".
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Former Conservative donor Daragh Coleman tells @Ed_Miliband he has dropped his support for Rishi Sunak’s party over net zero failings and yesterday joined Labour
    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1791107579336089738

    No idea who he is.

    At least this one comes with a label.

    CEO of Boots Seb James endorses Labour and Starmer
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1791034921953210610
    Seb James was in the (in)famous Bullingdon Club photo with Dave & Boris

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/1791063471875924183
    D'y'know, I'm a bit upset by that. If you are going to do the whole posh-lad dripping-with-entitlement chinless-wonder thing, then at least stay loyal to your own. Don't come over from Der Sunakbunker waving a white flag and going "d'y'know I never believed in Sunakism really." Yes you did sir, yes you did.
    As the Natalie Elphicke furore has shown, there's a difference between defection and conversion. Defection is tactical, conversion is repentance. Unless of course it is a deathbed conversion, in which case it's cynical. And arguably any conversion at this stage in the dying days of the Conservative administration is cynical.

    People should be allowed to change their point of view over time - anything else and you just get entrenched fundamentalism on both sides. The question is, how do you demonstrate that your conversion is genuine and not cynical?
    It's a bit 'what first attracted the CEO of a large national chain to donate to and schmooze the likely next government making policy on businesses?'
    "I have no conviction, if that's what you mean. I blow with wind, and the prevailing wind happens to be from Vichy."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    Gong, peerage or influence. The only reasons for large political donations. Will always be grubby.

    If you donate more than, say, £1000 to a political party I believe you should be excluded from receiving an honour until 5 years has passed, rolling forward if you make more donations.

    It's not a punishment, no one has to donate to a party and they surely are not doing so seeking a reward. So it just ensures there's not even a hint that the honour was bought.

    If someone would rather focus on getting an honour then they can just not donate, and if they want to influence and support a party they can do that instead.

    You still get internal influence, but nothing external.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    I think the issue of immigration generally is very important to the British public. But not so important that a drop in, or even a cessation of, small boats will save the Conservatives.

    The discontent with the Tory Party goes far beyond that issue. While it is proper that it is considered (and I completely accept it is becoming more important to voters' minds) it is overemphasised by the Conservative Party and on here. People are not going to forgive the Tories on the economy and health, or forget that they've had 14/15 years to sort out immigration, if the flights to Rwanda are successful.

    I think the last sentence is the key one: the Conservatives have been in power for almost fifteen years. We voted to leave the EU eight years ago.

    Why should anyone trust them now they're suddenly getting religious on immigration levels?
    Plenty of Brexiters on here say they bloody love immigration and wanted it to continue, increase even, post the 2016 vote.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,476
    It would appear that Labour's trial GE campaign launch went rather well today. Those hostile to Labour seem to be struggling to rip it apart, and coverage is broadly positive. Starmer will be chuffed, the Tories worried.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    kle4 said:

    Gong, peerage or influence. The only reasons for large political donations. Will always be grubby.

    If you donate more than, say, £1000 to a political party I believe you should be excluded from receiving an honour until 5 years has passed, rolling forward if you make more donations.

    It's not a punishment, no one has to donate to a party and they surely are not doing so seeking a reward. So it just ensures there's not even a hint that the honour was bought.

    If someone would rather focus on getting an honour then they can just not donate, and if they want to influence and support a party they can do that instead.

    You still get internal influence, but nothing external.
    Just direct the gift through a Northern Ireland branch of the party. Complete secrecy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    kle4 said:

    Gong, peerage or influence. The only reasons for large political donations. Will always be grubby.

    If you donate more than, say, £1000 to a political party I believe you should be excluded from receiving an honour until 5 years has passed, rolling forward if you make more donations.

    It's not a punishment, no one has to donate to a party and they surely are not doing so seeking a reward. So it just ensures there's not even a hint that the honour was bought.

    If someone would rather focus on getting an honour then they can just not donate, and if they want to influence and support a party they can do that instead.

    You still get internal influence, but nothing external.
    Yep sounds fair. I'd also ban 'loans' other than commercial loans from registered banks
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,154
    ToryJim said:

    One wonders what the King will make of an election on his birthday.

    Getting rid of this government would be a very welcome present, I would imagine.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    edited May 16
    FPT: The most interesting part of Michael Shellenberger's "Apocalypse Never" -- for me -- is his claim that nuclear power was often blocked, especially in California, by people with investments in fossil fuels. Often by providing financial support to anti-nuclear groups.

    He names names in the key chapter, including some high in the Democratic Party. (If any have sued him, I missed that news.)

    https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Never-Environmental-Alarmism-Hurts/dp/0063001691
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump's lawyer Blanche asks another question he shouldn't have.

    Now to Cohen's testimony to Congress about whether he ever requested a pardon:
    False, says Cohen—I never asked for it. I spoke to my attorney about it because we had seen on TV Trump talking about pre-pardoning, so I asked my attorney if this was legit

    https://twitter.com/TylerMcBrien/status/1791125264342163475

    Seems like an odd direction to go down in questioning. The overall strategy has to be to paint Cohen as unreliable and motivated to lie, just as he has lied before only this time to hurt Trump, since despite a lot of corroboration that there was business records fraud there are still a few elements for which only Cohen's testimony can speak to Trump's personal intent (which is why a conviction may not be a slam dunk even though the checks clearly were fraudulent), but some of the questions don't really seem to build that narrative.
    Blanche is trying to paint Cohen as a self-serving liar (which he certainly was, even if he's telling the truth these days), but his questioning is incoherent.
    In this case, I think he was trying to show Cohen had asked for a pardon - but without knowing the facts. Blanche just isn't great at cross.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,457
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    megasaur said:

    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/

    That chart demonstrates that the Conservatives did a pretty good job last year if you ask me.
    Wasn't that largely due to the boring returns deal with Albania? Which might be tricky to reproduce.

    Maybe Sunak's best chance was sometime in 2023. The Trussterversary messes things a bit, but perhaps October 2023 would have given a bad but not fatal defeat.

    As for Rwanda, it's vanishingly unlikely to work as a boat stopper. But the government have persuaded themselves that it will, which is the important thing.
    My scepticism about Rwanda working is this:

    If you're prepared to cross the Channel on a small boat with a 1% chance of death by drowning, you're probably prepared to cross the Channel with a 1% chance of drowning, and a 0.5% chance of being sent to Rwanda.

    Now, if all (or even most) arrivals were sent to Rwanda, or to an off-shore processing facility, then clearly the equation on behalf of the would be small boat crosser would be different. But that's not going to be the case. A better use of resources would simply be to ensure that people's claims were processed quickly, so that those denied asylum would be deported within weeks. (I believe the Dutch manage something like 90% within 12 weeks.)
    For a while now, saying stuff has been more important than doing stuff. Especially saying stuff that annoys all the right people.

    It's partly inevitable, there's not much time and little money to actually achieve anything before the election. But it's pretty pathological now.

    The obsession with words over actions, and fighting the internal enemy rather than the external opposition... They're normally characteristics of parties who are out of government.

    Conveniently, that's where the Conservatives seem to be headed, but I'd have preferred for them to be out of office before having their crack-up.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    edited May 16
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    megasaur said:

    Here's a thought

    For Rwanda to be working boat crossings have to become less frequent. A drop in crossings is not of course a sufficient condition for deterrence to be working - it might just be bad weather causing a temporary fall - but it's sure as hell a necessary one.

    Weather tends to be worst and crossings fewest in January... Bet accordingly. Signed. My book.

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/67txS/24/

    That chart demonstrates that the Conservatives did a pretty good job last year if you ask me.
    Wasn't that largely due to the boring returns deal with Albania? Which might be tricky to reproduce.

    Maybe Sunak's best chance was sometime in 2023. The Trussterversary messes things a bit, but perhaps October 2023 would have given a bad but not fatal defeat.

    As for Rwanda, it's vanishingly unlikely to work as a boat stopper. But the government have persuaded themselves that it will, which is the important thing.
    My scepticism about Rwanda working is this:

    If you're prepared to cross the Channel on a small boat with a 1% chance of death by drowning, you're probably prepared to cross the Channel with a 1% chance of drowning, and a 0.5% chance of being sent to Rwanda.

    Now, if all (or even most) arrivals were sent to Rwanda, or to an off-shore processing facility, then clearly the equation on behalf of the would be small boat crosser would be different. But that's not going to be the case. A better use of resources would simply be to ensure that people's claims were processed quickly, so that those denied asylum would be deported within weeks. (I believe the Dutch manage something like 90% within 12 weeks.)
    That's not a sexy political solution though. Its the same reason politicians would rather spend money on some new infrastructure project rather than maintain or expand existing infrastructure (until too late), or make damaging cuts to unpopular things like legal aid or court operations without considering the wider impacts.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    fpt

    ...

    isam said:

    It was over thirty years since I left school, and things will have changed a lot but I’m amazed anyone gets their sex education from teachers or textbooks.

    Aged 11 we were herded into the hall at primary school to watch a large black and white TV for a handful of Fridays. As the Grampian TV jingle started (I was in ATVland) a half an hour show called "Living and Growing" started. What did I learn? Girls have long hair and boys have short hair. I am yet to have any further formal reproduction lessons outside of Biology lessons I was an only child so am still waiting to learn about the birds and the bees.
    What some 11 year olds are being taught today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YPNCzXYy2CE

    Apart from promoting some views which are at best, contested, I found it confusing as heck.....
    I thought it was brilliant! A subject that I've thought little about but would have no idea how to explain it to an 11 year old. It looks to me like they've done a very good job.



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212

    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    A little anecdote;

    I just came out of a meeting of the local chamber of commerce devoted to Brexit.

    Its worse than the Tories worst nightmares. Lifetime Tories cursing the Tory Party, absolute contempt for Brexit, Determination that change should be radical, including demands for PR.

    I think for every month Sunak leaves it the Lib Dems will gain seats beyond their current forecast. Plenty want Farage´s head on a stick. It was actually quite sobering to see conservative and Conservative people so apoplectic.

    Why would anyone attend such a meeting if they didn't hold those view about the subject?
    Because it affects their bank balances.
    Therefore it's a self-selecting group of people with a grievance.
    Yes, small business owners.
    Denial is a wonderful thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    It might do.

    And that's certainly Sunak's gamble. But it's a little bit like an errant husband, who has repeatedly failed his partner, who hopes that by suddenly returning home sober for a few weeks will be forgiven for previous failings.

    Yes, it'll sometimes do the trick. But after 15 years, most people are pretty cynical that any change in behaviour is temporary and only driven by the immediate fear of being kicked out the house.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited May 16
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    Maybe but she was the head of IT. Not just some IT bod stuck in the back in a black t-shirt. You would expect her to be all over her department and what was going on. Which should in turn have provided cover and competence for the questions being asked.

    Although I suppose the whole inquiry has been characterised by PO heads of this and that who knew nothing that was happening in their departments.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    The big secret of top people is that for every genuinely impressive figure there are a dozen useless chancers bungling their way through life.

    Inquiries can be a rare chance to demonstrate the ordinariness of so many top people, and puncture the idea they deserve the remunerations they often get, as they scramble to show they are incompetent not malicious.

    Of course, know the right people and you can usually just move on to a directorship somewhere else. Companies and organisations just look at the last job you has, and apparently don't care how you actually did.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cicero said:

    A little anecdote;

    I just came out of a meeting of the local chamber of commerce devoted to Brexit.

    Its worse than the Tories worst nightmares. Lifetime Tories cursing the Tory Party, absolute contempt for Brexit, Determination that change should be radical, including demands for PR.

    I think for every month Sunak leaves it the Lib Dems will gain seats beyond their current forecast. Plenty want Farage´s head on a stick. It was actually quite sobering to see conservative and Conservative people so apoplectic.

    Why would anyone attend such a meeting if they didn't hold those view about the subject?
    Because it affects their bank balances.
    Therefore it's a self-selecting group of people with a grievance.
    Yes, small business owners.
    Denial is a wonderful thing.
    Yet it is one of the key tools in the Sophist Tool-Kit. Ditto for the Sophist-Too Kit.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,457
    edited May 16
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    I think the issue of immigration generally is very important to the British public. But not so important that a drop in, or even a cessation of, small boats will save the Conservatives.

    The discontent with the Tory Party goes far beyond that issue. While it is proper that it is considered (and I completely accept it is becoming more important to voters' minds) it is overemphasised by the Conservative Party and on here. People are not going to forgive the Tories on the economy and health, or forget that they've had 14/15 years to sort out immigration, if the flights to Rwanda are successful.

    I think the last sentence is the key one: the Conservatives have been in power for almost fifteen years. We voted to leave the EU eight years ago.

    Why should anyone trust them now they're suddenly getting religious on immigration levels?
    Plenty of Brexiters on here say they bloody love immigration and wanted it to continue, increase even, post the 2016 vote.
    Elite Brexit was "open to the world".

    Most of the 17 million was "shut that door".

    You can't reconcile those. But until we do, there's a political problem.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,500
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Gong, peerage or influence. The only reasons for large political donations. Will always be grubby.

    If you donate more than, say, £1000 to a political party I believe you should be excluded from receiving an honour until 5 years has passed, rolling forward if you make more donations.

    It's not a punishment, no one has to donate to a party and they surely are not doing so seeking a reward. So it just ensures there's not even a hint that the honour was bought.

    If someone would rather focus on getting an honour then they can just not donate, and if they want to influence and support a party they can do that instead.

    You still get internal influence, but nothing external.
    Just direct the gift through a Northern Ireland branch of the party. Complete secrecy.
    Only up to a limit of £7,500 these days!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43317229

    (Sinn Fein bring in just over £1m a year, the other parties get half that or less)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump's lawyer Blanche asks another question he shouldn't have.

    Now to Cohen's testimony to Congress about whether he ever requested a pardon:
    False, says Cohen—I never asked for it. I spoke to my attorney about it because we had seen on TV Trump talking about pre-pardoning, so I asked my attorney if this was legit

    https://twitter.com/TylerMcBrien/status/1791125264342163475

    Seems like an odd direction to go down in questioning. The overall strategy has to be to paint Cohen as unreliable and motivated to lie, just as he has lied before only this time to hurt Trump, since despite a lot of corroboration that there was business records fraud there are still a few elements for which only Cohen's testimony can speak to Trump's personal intent (which is why a conviction may not be a slam dunk even though the checks clearly were fraudulent), but some of the questions don't really seem to build that narrative.
    Blanche is trying to paint Cohen as a self-serving liar (which he certainly was, even if he's telling the truth these days), but his questioning is incoherent.
    In this case, I think he was trying to show Cohen had asked for a pardon - but without knowing the facts. Blanche just isn't great at cross.
    Apparently he's a federal prosecutor with a decent reputation, but that means he won't have had any experience of State cross examination for a defence.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    I think the issue of immigration generally is very important to the British public. But not so important that a drop in, or even a cessation of, small boats will save the Conservatives.

    The discontent with the Tory Party goes far beyond that issue. While it is proper that it is considered (and I completely accept it is becoming more important to voters' minds) it is overemphasised by the Conservative Party and on here. People are not going to forgive the Tories on the economy and health, or forget that they've had 14/15 years to sort out immigration, if the flights to Rwanda are successful.

    I think the last sentence is the key one: the Conservatives have been in power for almost fifteen years. We voted to leave the EU eight years ago.

    Why should anyone trust them now they're suddenly getting religious on immigration levels?
    Plenty of Brexiters on here say they bloody love immigration and wanted it to continue, increase even, post the 2016 vote.
    Elite Brexit was "open to the world".

    Most of the 17 million was "shut that door".

    You can't reconcile those. But until we do, there's a political problem.
    Perhaps the Tory strategy is an attempt to do both: open to the world to start with, and then shut that door just before the election.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    The big secret of top people is that for every genuinely impressive figure there are a dozen useless chancers bungling their way through life.

    Inquiries can be a rare chance to demonstrate the ordinariness of so many top people, and puncture the idea they deserve the remunerations they often get, as they scramble to show they are incompetent not malicious.

    Of course, know the right people and you can usually just move on to a directorship somewhere else. Companies and organisations just look at the last job you has, and apparently don't care how you actually did.
    "Top person"?. She was head of IT.

    Further, and I don't want to stereotype here but as an employment lawyer I have not generally had Heads of IT at the top of my wish list as Tribunal witnesses, however good they are at fixing my PC.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited May 16
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump's lawyer Blanche asks another question he shouldn't have.

    Now to Cohen's testimony to Congress about whether he ever requested a pardon:
    False, says Cohen—I never asked for it. I spoke to my attorney about it because we had seen on TV Trump talking about pre-pardoning, so I asked my attorney if this was legit

    https://twitter.com/TylerMcBrien/status/1791125264342163475

    Seems like an odd direction to go down in questioning. The overall strategy has to be to paint Cohen as unreliable and motivated to lie, just as he has lied before only this time to hurt Trump, since despite a lot of corroboration that there was business records fraud there are still a few elements for which only Cohen's testimony can speak to Trump's personal intent (which is why a conviction may not be a slam dunk even though the checks clearly were fraudulent), but some of the questions don't really seem to build that narrative.
    One of the chief problems for Trump's legal mouth-pieces, is that their fool of a client insists on dictating their alleged legal strategy.

    So as long as the certified checks are being cut on regular basis, they do what they are told . . . NOT what they might think best from legal perspective. Or even sensible PR perspective.

    PLUS of course fact that really good lawyers simply refuse to work for Trump. Or so it appears - and makes sense.

    ADDENDUM - Thus the Trump legal team does NOT achieve the same high standards achieved by the average, run-of-the-mill Sovereign Citizen.

    Despite their client being Sovereign Citizen in Chief!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Absolutely feckin meaningless.

    Personally am keeping ‘em crossed for July, but that’s a hope not a prediction. I don’t know when it will be, but my actual prediction is that the longer he waits the more the public will see him as either frit or a ditherer.

    He wants the wedge issue of immigration to be hot so he won't go until he's 100% he can get flights off before or during the campaign. As soon as practicable after that seems likely.
    Now, I'm not in the UK. But are there really millions of potential Conservative voters who are desperate to return to the fold just so long as a couple of flights have left for Rwanda?

    My gut - and I realize I'm in California - is that voters have now reached that stage where they want a change. Sunak isn't right wing enough to stop defections to Reform. And he isn't centrist enough to avoid losing votes to the LibDems and Labour. He's also screwed by the fact that the Left is likely to vote highly tactically, while the Right will very definitely not.

    There's no bogeyman, either. Who - other than @bigjohnowls and @isam - is going to march to the polling station and vote Conservative out of fear of Starmer? (And with Johnson gone, I think bjo will be going green.)

    And I don't see an easy way out. There's no popular MP in the wings who can galvanize support and bring the disparate factions together.

    It's time for the Conservative Party to accept that the electorate is going to give them a drubbing.

    And, if it's any consolation, the problems with the UK economy will still be there in five years time. So you never know, the Conservatives may get another chance sooner rather than later.
    The answer is control. You are right for all the reasons you describe that it's time for a change. The government is tired, a shambles, is losing MPs, and appears out of control. And that is the key. Well, a key.

    Let's imagine that Rwanda flights start, boat crossings drop (who cares why the weather perhaps), net immigration comes down. Rishi will have shown that he can control our borders, arguably one of the most important functions of government.

    Which then brings us to Lab. All SKS would be able to say is well done we'll do more of the same while the Cons will do all they can to suggest that Lab will open the floodgates again, let everyone in, and give them a personal GP on call 24hrs a day.

    That might give pause to some, who knows perhaps those in the Red Wall, who might think well we are now going in the right direction and we have secured the UK from invaders so it's going to be a doddle to fix housing, the NHS, education, etc, and lo and behold the election result is not the total wipeout that it is currently forecast to be.
    I think the issue of immigration generally is very important to the British public. But not so important that a drop in, or even a cessation of, small boats will save the Conservatives.

    The discontent with the Tory Party goes far beyond that issue. While it is proper that it is considered (and I completely accept it is becoming more important to voters' minds) it is overemphasised by the Conservative Party and on here. People are not going to forgive the Tories on the economy and health, or forget that they've had 14/15 years to sort out immigration, if the flights to Rwanda are successful.

    I think the last sentence is the key one: the Conservatives have been in power for almost fifteen years. We voted to leave the EU eight years ago.

    Why should anyone trust them now they're suddenly getting religious on immigration levels?
    Plenty of Brexiters on here say they bloody love immigration and wanted it to continue, increase even, post the 2016 vote.
    Elite Brexit was "open to the world".

    Most of the 17 million was "shut that door".

    You can't reconcile those. But until we do, there's a political problem.
    Perhaps the Tory strategy is an attempt to do both: open to the world to start with, and then shut that door just before the election.
    Hopefully closing the door on their way out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    Maybe but she was the head of IT. Not just some IT bod stuck in the back in a black t-shirt. You would expect her to be all over her department and what was going on. Which should in turn have provided cover and competence for the questions being asked.

    Although I suppose the whole inquiry has been characterised by PO heads of this and that who knew nothing that was happening in their departments.
    A weirdly common problem once legal consequences or public attention emerges.

    Recall FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried who spent hundreds of millions on an image of a humble genius saving the world and running everything, defending himself at trial by saying he knew nothing about anything.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    Maybe but she was the head of IT. Not just some IT bod stuck in the back in a black t-shirt. You would expect her to be all over her department and what was going on. Which should in turn have provided cover and competence for the questions being asked.

    Although I suppose the whole inquiry has been characterised by PO heads of this and that who knew nothing that was happening in their departments.
    Giving evidence is horribly stressful. Giving evidence on live TV even more so. Competent honest people are not necessarily great witnesses or public speakers, and incompetent liars are often the best bullshitters. As recent electoral history shows.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,636

    FPT: The most interesting part of Michael Shellenberger's "Apocalypse Never" -- for me -- is his claim that nuclear power was often blocked, especially in California, by people with investments in fossil fuels. Often by providing financial support to anti-nuclear groups.

    He names names in the key chapter, including some high in the Democratic Party. (If any have sued him, I missed that news.)

    https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Never-Environmental-Alarmism-Hurts/dp/0063001691

    Oh, I'm sure that's correct. The oil and gas companies - Chevron, Exxon, etc - have been ruthless at promoting their own agendas via donations.

    That being said... it is worth remembering that the sum total of nuclear plants built in the world without government subsidy is ... counts ... zero.

    South Carolina Electric & Gas did start in the commissioning process for two new nuclear plants, but they got cancelled in 2017 because the economics simply did not stack up.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    The big secret of top people is that for every genuinely impressive figure there are a dozen useless chancers bungling their way through life.

    Inquiries can be a rare chance to demonstrate the ordinariness of so many top people, and puncture the idea they deserve the remunerations they often get, as they scramble to show they are incompetent not malicious.

    Of course, know the right people and you can usually just move on to a directorship somewhere else. Companies and organisations just look at the last job you has, and apparently don't care how you actually did.
    "Top person"?. She was head of IT.

    Further, and I don't want to stereotype here but as an employment lawyer I have not generally had Heads of IT at the top of my wish list as Tribunal witnesses, however good they are at fixing my PC.
    Are you sure she came in through actually spending her time messing around with cables? Not being unkind to her: it's a realistic question in this era of generalist managers.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    I don’t believe Pesto has inside info on this. It’s recycled from George Osborne, who doesn’t either.

    December 12th as suggested by the BBC this morning is the first date that makes sense to me.

    5th anniversary of the last one. Get memories stirring. Wheel out Boris. It’s neat.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,915
    edited May 16

    DougSeal said:

    It's a Twatter message. By Pesto.

    What you've got there is cube root of Jack and Shit. And Jack's left town....

    Do you mind if I use that?
    It's not mine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJk9wzNz6fU
    That suffers from a lack of verisimilitude, so it's better stolen.

    A USA bloke who can barely see over his rhetorical pelvis talking Usonian to a Medieval something something something with a Scottish accent surgically extracted from Sean Connery.

    I prefer Dwayne.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCAhJzYpfjk
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    The big secret of top people is that for every genuinely impressive figure there are a dozen useless chancers bungling their way through life.

    Inquiries can be a rare chance to demonstrate the ordinariness of so many top people, and puncture the idea they deserve the remunerations they often get, as they scramble to show they are incompetent not malicious.

    Of course, know the right people and you can usually just move on to a directorship somewhere else. Companies and organisations just look at the last job you has, and apparently don't care how you actually did.
    "Top person"?. She was head of IT.

    Further, and I don't want to stereotype here but as an employment lawyer I have not generally had Heads of IT at the top of my wish list as Tribunal witnesses, however good they are at fixing my PC.
    Are you sure she came in through actually spending her time messing around with cables? Not being unkind to her: it's a realistic question in this era of generalist managers.
    Yes, I am. In her own words -

    5. I have a bachelor's degree in Applied Computing from Newcastle Polytechnic and an MBA from Newcastle University. I started my career at Newcastle Polytechnic within its Computing department as a trainee Computer Operator. I left in 1985 to join Northern Rock as a trainee programmer. I worked at Northern Rock until 2010. During my 25 years at Northern Rock, I held numerous IT roles and led many major IT programmes. When I left Northern Rock I held the position of Managing Director of IT.

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/evidence/witn00840100-lesley-sewell-witness-statement
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Barristers having to treat Lesley Sewell of the PO as though she is a child, such is her fragility and uselessness.

    Lesley Sewell former Chief Information Officer of the PO, that is.

    Being a senior IT person does not prepare you for this. I am surprised, given it is televised and has been the subject of such scrutiny in recent months, more people have not reacted as she did.
    The big secret of top people is that for every genuinely impressive figure there are a dozen useless chancers bungling their way through life.

    Inquiries can be a rare chance to demonstrate the ordinariness of so many top people, and puncture the idea they deserve the remunerations they often get, as they scramble to show they are incompetent not malicious.

    Of course, know the right people and you can usually just move on to a directorship somewhere else. Companies and organisations just look at the last job you has, and apparently don't care how you actually did.
    "Top person"?. She was head of IT.

    Further, and I don't want to stereotype here but as an employment lawyer I have not generally had Heads of IT at the top of my wish list as Tribunal witnesses, however good they are at fixing my PC.
    Top person is a relative term, especially depending on the hierarchy and scale of a business.

    It absolute could cover a role such as Head of IT, if in an organisation where complex software is essential to things, or where it is central to the matter being Inquired about as here.
This discussion has been closed.