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Why the flights to Rwanda will not help Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Michael O'Leary offers to run the Rwanda flights:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/ryanair-ceo-says-he-d-happily-offer-rwanda-deportation-flights

    Or, alternatively, "Michael O'Leary spots an opportunity for publicity."

    His planes don’t have the range to get from Stansted to Kigali anyway!! He might just scrape it in a lightly-loaded 8 Max, with no sensible alternate.

    It’ll be a Crab Air A330, which not only has the range, but flies from an airbase with no journalists on it.
    Tech Stop in Tripoli. It's not like the passengers are going to get the arsehole and whinge on TripAdvisor.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    Andy_JS said:

    Former Tory MP for Tamworth, Chris Pincher, is still penning articles for the Critic.

    "What makes a gentleman tick?
    Of course, there are watches and there are watches, and then there are watches
    Christopher Pincher"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/what-makes-a-gentleman-tick/

    Pretty trite choices by the Pincher.

    Next up on The Critic, Mark Menzies on why the bespoke suit is a comfort when assailed by bad people.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,980

    Nigelb said:

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    You OK ?
    Sorry, couldn't resist.. Hospital is a little village

    My Mum didn't find that at all funny!


    It was all too believable!
    Apparently my Dad's only response was "she better bloody well have insurance"

    I don't..
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    There's a subtle and important point there.

    No one expects perfect behaviour from either a Priest or a Christian (except possibly the type of self-righteous oafish individual who expresses their personal anger by shouting things like "THAT'S NOT VERY CHRISTIAN !!!", when they normally mean "You did something I don't like.").

    That is the very philosophical foundation of the faith, and as a basis I like it; it is a system of belief, aspiration and practice not a system of instructions or propositional logic. Individuals cannot be entirely judged as people on the basis of their behaviour or past behaviour. The Gospels are full of examples of that. There is only one judge of "who is a Christian".

    Around that there are practicalities of humans running human organisations in this particular society, and how resilience, guard rails etc need to work. That is a different set of questions, requirements and practices.

    On 'priesthood' or church leadership, at one end (eg Free Evangelical Churches) it is seen as a job like any other, for trained individuals. At the other (Roman Catholic) end aiui it is an ontological change for an individual, and is only reversed in extreme extremis - it might even formally require a referral to Rome. The Church of England, inevitably, has features of both.

    For Paula Vennells, aiui she resigned her License (ie ' Bishop's permission to officiate') 3 years ago this week, and so can do no priestly duties. Since she was an unpaid office holder ('Non Stipendiary Minister'), I'm not sure what more can be done. In any case, I don't see anything further being done whilst the whole thing is still essentially sub-judice, since it would make no practical difference, and criminal charges are very possible.

    One parallel case came up again this spring - Chris Brain former-leader of the Sheffield based "Nine O Clock Service" has been charged with various sexual offences dating back to 1983-1995, afaics after Me Too encouraged police complaints back in 2020 and there has been a 4-year police investigation.

    Brain was permanently barred from officiating in the Church of England in 1995 by the Archbishop of York, yet UK media are still calling him a "Priest" not a "former Priest".
    Thanks Matt.

    It's hardly my subject, but I believe I am right in saying that Ms V had no pastoral experience, which makes it rather intriguing that she was apparently in line to become a bishop (before of course the PO scandal showed her in an unfavorale light.)
    Good comments.

    "No pastoral experience" is not quite right. She was a Non-Stipendiary Minister, (sometimes termed "Self-Supporting Minister") which is what it says - basically Vicar level with no stipend. A "stipend" is an allowance to allow you to carry out a Ministry, which is generally a bit less than national median salary for someone with at least 2 degrees - the CofE correctly models that it wants people called by service, not driven by money.

    Her training for the NSM role would be the equivalent of one year full time, usually done as part of a group over 3 years at ~20 weekends per annum plus days plus conferences plus placement plus coursework - in her case St Albans Ministry Course. I have friends who have done it - it is very demanding, like a part time MBA and then more practical experience on top.

    She was Ordained in 2006, so has about 15 years of experience as a senior leader in a parish, which I would say is a lot of experience. That will have been preaching and leading services not much less than weekly, pastoral work in the parish, being on the PCC and in the leadership team, and so on. I would need to check Crockfords for full details.

    NSMs are usually people who work full or part time with a church / community focused ministry. There is another version of similar-level-qualified people who are known as MSEs, Ministers in Secular Employment - who have a particular focus towards the 'world of work' rather than the parish / community. They are like Industrial Chaplains with no stipend, in a particular professional context. Such combinations are immensely creative, but also have two orthogonal sets of demands, which can be very difficult to manage together.

    I'd say that she was shortlisted for Bp of London due to her strategic level experience in the Post Office plus her ordination, bearing in mind that the Diocese of London has thousands of staff, about 500 churches and a community of around a million people. In the event it went to the former Chief Nursing Officer for England, who was by then a Suffragan Bishop. I'd say that a jump form NSM to Senior Bishop especially London is just too much.

    My not very evidenced thought on what went wrong for Vennells is that she perhaps took on too much - very heavy senior roles at both home and work is too much for anyone, imo. So when the crisis emerged in the Post Office, there was not enough head space to deal with it effectively. And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail.
    And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail - which was basically every single part of that job....
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I don't think that's true. "Maritime arrivals" came about because the airports/ports/chunnel terminals - and the cross-channel lorries that went with them - were closed during Covid and testing the Channel was the only alternative.

    The people smugglers discovered it was a massive loophole. Whereas previously they'd only be able to get a handful in on a lorry, they suddenly discovered they could get dozens and dozens in on each boat. It was much safer than expected (low fatality rate - partly because they're escorted in for up to 50% of the way, and not intercepted the French side) and was far harder to police departures.

    Any Government would have had a major political problem with it and be obliged to respond. Its alignment with Brexit is entirely coincidental and not causal, so this post simply reflects reflexive anti-Tory prejudice.
    East Kent resident here. That's not the case. The (Tory) County Council has been concerned about this for years prior to the pandemic. In 2018 there were 299 people intercepted in small boat crossings. That increased more than six-fold to 1,843 in 2019. The first recorded case of Covid anywhere in Europe was in January 2020.
    Didn't we pay the French shedloads to wall and fence off the roads near Calais, which then just diverted the flow to small boats?
    More that the migrants piling onto lorries and (especially) the Channel Tunnel, were seen as affecting French national infrastructure. This triggered a serious response from the French state - the Channel Tunnel, in particular, is seen as national asset.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/18/uk-to-pay-extra-445m-for-calais-security-in-anglo-french-deal

    This was 2018. Cheap compared to Rwanda, but the big rise in boats started the following year.
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723

    Donkeys said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I don't think that's true. "Maritime arrivals" came about because the airports/ports/chunnel terminals - and the cross-channel lorries that went with them - were closed during Covid and testing the Channel was the only alternative.

    The people smugglers discovered it was a massive loophole. Whereas previously they'd only be able to get a handful in on a lorry, they suddenly discovered they could get dozens and dozens in on each boat. It was much safer than expected (low fatality rate - partly because they're escorted in for up to 50% of the way, and not intercepted the French side) and was far harder to police departures.

    Any Government would have had a major political problem with it and be obliged to respond. Its alignment with Brexit is entirely coincidental and not causal, so this post simply reflects reflexive anti-Tory prejudice.
    The huge majority of illegal immigrants in Britain entered legally and then overstayed their visas - nothing to do with small boats whatsoever.
    But that's whataboutism. It's not an either or.

    Mass small boat arrivals of several hundred a day are a problem, and would have been so for Tony Blair too.
    Agreed, small boat arrivals are a problem. They are part of the illegal immigration problem. But from what the media and politicians are saying, one would think they were a large part of it, when they aren't. Things like dodgy language schools hardly get mentioned.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,074

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.

    That's a ludicrously biased summary even of the piece as it reads, which itself shows considerable bias. Are the 'thugs' not 'local'? Or do you suppose Nigel Farage and Susan Hall are touring the country with a tow truck?
    While we're on about stuff on the internet, does anyone else have clickbait constantly forced on them mawkishly reporting the death of 'much loved' Robert Peston? I don't click on it because it's so obviously clickbaity lies. But I'm puzzled about why the internet is targeting me this way.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I don't think that's true. "Maritime arrivals" came about because the airports/ports/chunnel terminals - and the cross-channel lorries that went with them - were closed during Covid and testing the Channel was the only alternative.

    The people smugglers discovered it was a massive loophole. Whereas previously they'd only be able to get a handful in on a lorry, they suddenly discovered they could get dozens and dozens in on each boat. It was much safer than expected (low fatality rate - partly because they're escorted in for up to 50% of the way, and not intercepted the French side) and was far harder to police departures.

    Any Government would have had a major political problem with it and be obliged to respond. Its alignment with Brexit is entirely coincidental and not causal, so this post simply reflects reflexive anti-Tory prejudice.
    East Kent resident here. That's not the case. The (Tory) County Council has been concerned about this for years prior to the pandemic. In 2018 there were 299 people intercepted in small boat crossings. That increased more than six-fold to 1,843 in 2019. The first recorded case of Covid anywhere in Europe was in January 2020.
    It is the case. The number massively jumped from 2020 through to 2021 as the statistics demonstrate - it went from small-time to big league:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53699511
    Isn't that connected to various crackdowns at Calais and other docks that made the old approach of hiding in the back of a lorry impossible...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,145
    Andy_JS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    The fact Vennells wrote that is one of the most damning pieces of evidence in the inquiry so far imo.
    Vennells was a ruthless manager motivated principally by her own career and pay, who was brought into a public sector environment that she never took the trouble to understand. Every time she had a choice between reputation and doing the right thing, she played double or quits, and as any mathematician (or gambler) will know, playing that game to the end can occasionally be very dangerous indeed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    edited April 24
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Michael O'Leary offers to run the Rwanda flights:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/ryanair-ceo-says-he-d-happily-offer-rwanda-deportation-flights

    Or, alternatively, "Michael O'Leary spots an opportunity for publicity."

    His planes don’t have the range to get from Stansted to Kigali anyway!! He might just scrape it in a lightly-loaded 8 Max, with no sensible alternate.

    It’ll be a Crab Air A330, which not only has the range, but flies from an airbase with no journalists on it.
    Tech Stop in Tripoli. It's not like the passengers are going to get the arsehole and whinge on TripAdvisor.
    O’Leary would try and sell tickets for the spare seats on the first leg, and then suffer a mutiny of activists and journalists that would have to be dragged off the plane by Libyan security forces.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    edited April 24
    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    Fpt for @Donkeys

    A prehistoric stone structure in Brittany played a key role in the origins of Surrealism, and this has never been commented on in print, as far as I'm aware. But I'm not going to say which structure because there are malevolent Tory types here.”

    Oh go on. Do tell. I’m not a Tory I’m voting Starmer in the election!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    Nigelb said:

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    You OK ?
    Sorry, couldn't resist.. Hospital is a little village

    My Mum didn't find that at all funny!


    It was all too believable!
    Apparently my Dad's only response was "she better bloody well have insurance"

    I don't..
    Well don’t go to Hospital if you don’t have insurance!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Michael O'Leary offers to run the Rwanda flights:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/ryanair-ceo-says-he-d-happily-offer-rwanda-deportation-flights

    Or, alternatively, "Michael O'Leary spots an opportunity for publicity."

    His planes don’t have the range to get from Stansted to Kigali anyway!! He might just scrape it in a lightly-loaded 8 Max, with no sensible alternate.

    It’ll be a Crab Air A330, which not only has the range, but flies from an airbase with no journalists on it.
    Tech Stop in Tripoli. It's not like the passengers are going to get the arsehole and whinge on TripAdvisor.
    O’Leary would try and sell tickets for the spare seats on the first leg, and then suffer a mutiny of activists and journalists that would have to be dragged off the plane by Libyan security forces.
    They'd fly to "Charleroi (for Kigali)".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    Sean_F said:

    @Sean_F

    I don't see you posting much these days.

    Don't forget I owe you a lunch.

    Oh, thanks. Please PM me.

    I've been working very hard, and found the political situation somewhat depressing, although I feel better after the US Congress finally did the right thing, WRT Ukraine.
    I don't owe you a lunch (I don't think) but I'd still fancy one with you!
    And lunch afterwards? You're a gent!
    I like him a lot, but not that much.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Nigelb said:

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    You OK ?
    Sorry, couldn't resist.. Hospital is a little village

    My Mum didn't find that at all funny!


    It was all too believable!
    Apparently my Dad's only response was "she better bloody well have insurance"

    I don't..
    Most people can get Europe wide annual travel insurance with reasonable cover for less than twenty pounds. Obviously much harder with pre-conditions or elderly, but generally it seems a no brainer if they dont get it as part of banking anyway.
  • Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    No fault eviction goes way beyond simply not renewing contracts, which is entirely reasonable.

    Even if you're mid-contract, a tenant can simply be provided 2 months notice at any stage and be faced with being made homeless as the contract is then simply terminated mid-contract.

    2 months is bugger all to have your life upended looking for a new home, especially given how long procedures take.

    I had this happen to me in late October 2022, when interest rates went up, and told I had to be out of the house by 19 December 2022, quite literally the week of Christmas, despite the fact that we had a renewed 12 month contract that was due to end in April 2023. We'd never had a single missed payment or anything else.

    We were in the fortunate position where we had a deposit and there was a new build estate near us with a completed but unsold property so were able to get our own new build home so that could never happen to us again. We were able to get through solicitors on the final working day before the deadline to move out.

    However most others in the same situation won't be so fortunate, either as they don't have a deposit, lack of available completed homes, lack of time to get through solicitors etc and can instead face this headache at any time, for no reason and no fault.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,145
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    There's a subtle and important point there.

    No one expects perfect behaviour from either a Priest or a Christian (except possibly the type of self-righteous oafish individual who expresses their personal anger by shouting things like "THAT'S NOT VERY CHRISTIAN !!!", when they normally mean "You did something I don't like.").

    That is the very philosophical foundation of the faith, and as a basis I like it; it is a system of belief, aspiration and practice not a system of instructions or propositional logic. Individuals cannot be entirely judged as people on the basis of their behaviour or past behaviour. The Gospels are full of examples of that. There is only one judge of "who is a Christian".

    Around that there are practicalities of humans running human organisations in this particular society, and how resilience, guard rails etc need to work. That is a different set of questions, requirements and practices.

    On 'priesthood' or church leadership, at one end (eg Free Evangelical Churches) it is seen as a job like any other, for trained individuals. At the other (Roman Catholic) end aiui it is an ontological change for an individual, and is only reversed in extreme extremis - it might even formally require a referral to Rome. The Church of England, inevitably, has features of both.

    For Paula Vennells, aiui she resigned her License (ie ' Bishop's permission to officiate') 3 years ago this week, and so can do no priestly duties. Since she was an unpaid office holder ('Non Stipendiary Minister'), I'm not sure what more can be done. In any case, I don't see anything further being done whilst the whole thing is still essentially sub-judice, since it would make no practical difference, and criminal charges are very possible.

    One parallel case came up again this spring - Chris Brain former-leader of the Sheffield based "Nine O Clock Service" has been charged with various sexual offences dating back to 1983-1995, afaics after Me Too encouraged police complaints back in 2020 and there has been a 4-year police investigation.

    Brain was permanently barred from officiating in the Church of England in 1995 by the Archbishop of York, yet UK media are still calling him a "Priest" not a "former Priest".
    Thanks Matt.

    It's hardly my subject, but I believe I am right in saying that Ms V had no pastoral experience, which makes it rather intriguing that she was apparently in line to become a bishop (before of course the PO scandal showed her in an unfavorale light.)
    Good comments.

    "No pastoral experience" is not quite right. She was a Non-Stipendiary Minister, (sometimes termed "Self-Supporting Minister") which is what it says - basically Vicar level with no stipend. A "stipend" is an allowance to allow you to carry out a Ministry, which is generally a bit less than national median salary for someone with at least 2 degrees - the CofE correctly models that it wants people called by service, not driven by money.

    Her training for the NSM role would be the equivalent of one year full time, usually done as part of a group over 3 years at ~20 weekends per annum plus days plus conferences plus placement plus coursework - in her case St Albans Ministry Course. I have friends who have done it - it is very demanding, like a part time MBA and then more practical experience on top.

    She was Ordained in 2006, so has about 15 years of experience as a senior leader in a parish, which I would say is a lot of experience. That will have been preaching and leading services not much less than weekly, pastoral work in the parish, being on the PCC and in the leadership team, and so on. I would need to check Crockfords for full details.

    NSMs are usually people who work full or part time with a church / community focused ministry. There is another version of similar-level-qualified people who are known as MSEs, Ministers in Secular Employment - who have a particular focus towards the 'world of work' rather than the parish / community. They are like Industrial Chaplains with no stipend, in a particular professional context. Such combinations are immensely creative, but also have two orthogonal sets of demands, which can be very difficult to manage together.

    I'd say that she was shortlisted for Bp of London due to her strategic level experience in the Post Office plus her ordination, bearing in mind that the Diocese of London has thousands of staff, about 500 churches and a community of around a million people. In the event it went to the former Chief Nursing Officer for England, who was by then a Suffragan Bishop. I'd say that a jump form NSM to Senior Bishop especially London is just too much.

    My not very evidenced thought on what went wrong for Vennells is that she perhaps took on too much - very heavy senior roles at both home and work is too much for anyone, imo. So when the crisis emerged in the Post Office, there was not enough head space to deal with it effectively. And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail.
    All my life experience is that people who claim religiosity have morals that are, at very best, no better than the median of the wider population. And most often, worse.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    Guess what happened when one operator of air cargo said they could put five 20-ton MRAP vehicles in a 747, when everyone else said they could only fit four?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_Flight_102
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I don't think that's true. "Maritime arrivals" came about because the airports/ports/chunnel terminals - and the cross-channel lorries that went with them - were closed during Covid and testing the Channel was the only alternative.

    The people smugglers discovered it was a massive loophole. Whereas previously they'd only be able to get a handful in on a lorry, they suddenly discovered they could get dozens and dozens in on each boat. It was much safer than expected (low fatality rate - partly because they're escorted in for up to 50% of the way, and not intercepted the French side) and was far harder to police departures.

    Any Government would have had a major political problem with it and be obliged to respond. Its alignment with Brexit is entirely coincidental and not causal, so this post simply reflects reflexive anti-Tory prejudice.
    East Kent resident here. That's not the case. The (Tory) County Council has been concerned about this for years prior to the pandemic. In 2018 there were 299 people intercepted in small boat crossings. That increased more than six-fold to 1,843 in 2019. The first recorded case of Covid anywhere in Europe was in January 2020.
    It is the case. The number massively jumped from 2020 through to 2021 as the statistics demonstrate - it went from small-time to big league:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53699511
    As I say, the biggest jump was before the pandemic, although I appreciate basic maths is not a Tory strong point.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I don't think that's true. "Maritime arrivals" came about because the airports/ports/chunnel terminals - and the cross-channel lorries that went with them - were closed during Covid and testing the Channel was the only alternative.

    The people smugglers discovered it was a massive loophole. Whereas previously they'd only be able to get a handful in on a lorry, they suddenly discovered they could get dozens and dozens in on each boat. It was much safer than expected (low fatality rate - partly because they're escorted in for up to 50% of the way, and not intercepted the French side) and was far harder to police departures.

    Any Government would have had a major political problem with it and be obliged to respond. Its alignment with Brexit is entirely coincidental and not causal, so this post simply reflects reflexive anti-Tory prejudice.
    East Kent resident here. That's not the case. The (Tory) County Council has been concerned about this for years prior to the pandemic. In 2018 there were 299 people intercepted in small boat crossings. That increased more than six-fold to 1,843 in 2019. The first recorded case of Covid anywhere in Europe was in January 2020.
    It is the case. The number massively jumped from 2020 through to 2021 as the statistics demonstrate - it went from small-time to big league:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53699511
    As I say, the biggest jump was before the pandemic, although I appreciate basic maths is not a Tory strong point.
    You're a time waster.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,417
    PMQs Angela vs Oliver. A bit Punch & Judy so far.
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I don't think that's true. "Maritime arrivals" came about because the airports/ports/chunnel terminals - and the cross-channel lorries that went with them - were closed during Covid and testing the Channel was the only alternative.

    The people smugglers discovered it was a massive loophole. Whereas previously they'd only be able to get a handful in on a lorry, they suddenly discovered they could get dozens and dozens in on each boat. It was much safer than expected (low fatality rate - partly because they're escorted in for up to 50% of the way, and not intercepted the French side) and was far harder to police departures.

    Any Government would have had a major political problem with it and be obliged to respond. Its alignment with Brexit is entirely coincidental and not causal, so this post simply reflects reflexive anti-Tory prejudice.
    East Kent resident here. That's not the case. The (Tory) County Council has been concerned about this for years prior to the pandemic. In 2018 there were 299 people intercepted in small boat crossings. That increased more than six-fold to 1,843 in 2019. The first recorded case of Covid anywhere in Europe was in January 2020.
    It is the case. The number massively jumped from 2020 through to 2021 as the statistics demonstrate - it went from small-time to big league:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53699511
    As I say, the biggest jump was before the pandemic, although I appreciate basic maths is not a Tory strong point.
    Basic maths isn't your forte either.

    The biggest proportionate increase was before the pandemic, the biggest increases absolutely were after the pandemic began.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."

    Was with her until she brought up right wing and left wing into it. The biggest problem with VAR, as implemented, is it makes the spectacle worse for fans in the stadium. At a minimum they should be hearing the referee-VAR discussion live on the PA system.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    Leon said:

    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better

    Also Time Fleas, a classic lost episode of Dr Who.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."

    Was with her until she brought up right wing and left wing into it. The biggest problem with VAR, as implemented, is it makes the spectacle worse for fans in the stadium. At a minimum they should be hearing the referee-VAR discussion live on the PA system.
    So, are you a Centrist Dad, then?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    I think that's a fairly blatant attempt by the Telegraph to bounce Labour into something to create an attack line for later. Plus, what does the Shadow Attorney General have to do with setting defence policy - she's just restated the existing positon?

    A statement of the obvious vs a "promise" that will never be cashed.

    This is an excerpt:

    Emily Thornberry, the shadow attorney general, said this morning that Labour will seek to hit a target of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence “when circumstances allow”.

    But Rishi Sunak yesterday promised that under his leadership the number would be delivered by 2030.

    Asked if Labour would continue with the 2.5 per cent target “as and when” the party comes to power, Ms Thornberry told Sky News: “Not as and when we come to power but as and when we can. So when circumstances allow.”
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."

    Was with her until she brought up right wing and left wing into it. The biggest problem with VAR, as implemented, is it makes the spectacle worse for fans in the stadium. At a minimum they should be hearing the referee-VAR discussion live on the PA system.
    So, are you a Centrist Dad, then?
    Centre back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
    I'm sure they can get a few useable things for that.

    Bigger salaries for the top brass.
    More civil servants.
    Better pensions.

    That's 3 just to start with. I'm sure Sir Humphrey has a few more to add.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    There's a subtle and important point there.

    No one expects perfect behaviour from either a Priest or a Christian (except possibly the type of self-righteous oafish individual who expresses their personal anger by shouting things like "THAT'S NOT VERY CHRISTIAN !!!", when they normally mean "You did something I don't like.").

    That is the very philosophical foundation of the faith, and as a basis I like it; it is a system of belief, aspiration and practice not a system of instructions or propositional logic. Individuals cannot be entirely judged as people on the basis of their behaviour or past behaviour. The Gospels are full of examples of that. There is only one judge of "who is a Christian".

    Around that there are practicalities of humans running human organisations in this particular society, and how resilience, guard rails etc need to work. That is a different set of questions, requirements and practices.

    On 'priesthood' or church leadership, at one end (eg Free Evangelical Churches) it is seen as a job like any other, for trained individuals. At the other (Roman Catholic) end aiui it is an ontological change for an individual, and is only reversed in extreme extremis - it might even formally require a referral to Rome. The Church of England, inevitably, has features of both.

    For Paula Vennells, aiui she resigned her License (ie ' Bishop's permission to officiate') 3 years ago this week, and so can do no priestly duties. Since she was an unpaid office holder ('Non Stipendiary Minister'), I'm not sure what more can be done. In any case, I don't see anything further being done whilst the whole thing is still essentially sub-judice, since it would make no practical difference, and criminal charges are very possible.

    One parallel case came up again this spring - Chris Brain former-leader of the Sheffield based "Nine O Clock Service" has been charged with various sexual offences dating back to 1983-1995, afaics after Me Too encouraged police complaints back in 2020 and there has been a 4-year police investigation.

    Brain was permanently barred from officiating in the Church of England in 1995 by the Archbishop of York, yet UK media are still calling him a "Priest" not a "former Priest".
    Thanks Matt.

    It's hardly my subject, but I believe I am right in saying that Ms V had no pastoral experience, which makes it rather intriguing that she was apparently in line to become a bishop (before of course the PO scandal showed her in an unfavorale light.)
    Good comments.

    "No pastoral experience" is not quite right. She was a Non-Stipendiary Minister, (sometimes termed "Self-Supporting Minister") which is what it says - basically Vicar level with no stipend. A "stipend" is an allowance to allow you to carry out a Ministry, which is generally a bit less than national median salary for someone with at least 2 degrees - the CofE correctly models that it wants people called by service, not driven by money. Half-way models might be part time or "house for duty".

    Her training for the NSM role would be the equivalent of one year full time, usually done as part of a group over 3 years at ~20 weekends per annum plus days plus conferences plus placement plus coursework - in her case St Albans Ministry Course. I have friends who have done it - it is very demanding, like a part time MBA and then more practical experience on top.

    She was Ordained in 2006, so has about 15 years of experience as a senior leader in a parish, which I would say is a lot of experience. That will have been preaching and leading services not much less than weekly, pastoral work in the parish, being on the PCC and in the leadership team, and so on. I would need to check Crockfords for full details.

    NSMs are usually people who work full or part time with a church / community focused ministry. There is another version of similar-level-qualified people who are known as MSEs, Ministers in Secular Employment - who have a particular focus towards the 'world of work' rather than the parish / community. They are like Industrial Chaplains with no stipend, in a particular professional context. Such combinations are immensely creative, but also have two orthogonal sets of demands, which can be very difficult to manage together.

    I'd say that she was shortlisted for Bp of London due to her strategic level experience in the Post Office plus her ordination, bearing in mind that the Diocese of London has thousands of staff, about 500 churches and a community of around a million people. In the event it went to the former Chief Nursing Officer for England, who was by then a Suffragan Bishop. I'd say that a jump form NSM to Senior Bishop especially London is just too much.

    My not very evidenced thought on what went wrong for Vennells is that she perhaps took on too much - very heavy senior roles at both home and work is too much for anyone, imo. So when the crisis emerged in the Post Office, there was not enough head space to deal with it effectively. And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail.
    Thanks Matt. That is very helpful for a dilettante like me trying to get my head around the mind set of somebody who combines senior management with a prominent Church role. The temptation is to dismiss her as a fraud but you may well be nearer the truth in your assessment.

    What I would say with some confidence is that she was out of her depth as CEO at the PO, regardless of other distractions, but then she isn't the only senior exec to be coming out of this badly.

    I see she is booked for three days in front of the Inquiry in May. On a purely personal note and disregarding all the horrors of the scandal, I do wonder how someone with any sensitivity at all copes on a day to day basis with the knowledge of what went on and knowing that she will be minutely scrutinised over her part in it. I couldn't bear it myself. Mrs PtP is cynical and says that such people are shameless, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

    Maybe we should all just wait and see what she says at the hearing. It should certainly be box office.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.

    That's a ludicrously biased summary even of the piece as it reads, which itself shows considerable bias. Are the 'thugs' not 'local'? Or do you suppose Nigel Farage and Susan Hall are touring the country with a tow truck?
    Elementary reading comprehension. There is nothing in the piece to indicate that the vandals and thugs threatening the locals are themselves locals to the immediate area.

    If you think Mr Farage and Ms Hall are plausible culprits, feel free. It's a free world. But I don't think it likely.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.

    That's a ludicrously biased summary even of the piece as it reads, which itself shows considerable bias. Are the 'thugs' not 'local'? Or do you suppose Nigel Farage and Susan Hall are touring the country with a tow truck?
    While we're on about stuff on the internet, does anyone else have clickbait constantly forced on them mawkishly reporting the death of 'much loved' Robert Peston? I don't click on it because it's so obviously clickbaity lies. But I'm puzzled about why the internet is targeting me this way.
    Not Pesto, but I have seen the odd fake obituary of someone I've been searching up on Youtube etc. What a time to be alive!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Michael O'Leary offers to run the Rwanda flights:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/ryanair-ceo-says-he-d-happily-offer-rwanda-deportation-flights

    Or, alternatively, "Michael O'Leary spots an opportunity for publicity."

    His planes don’t have the range to get from Stansted to Kigali anyway!! He might just scrape it in a lightly-loaded 8 Max, with no sensible alternate.

    It’ll be a Crab Air A330, which not only has the range, but flies from an airbase with no journalists on it.
    Tech Stop in Tripoli. It's not like the passengers are going to get the arsehole and whinge on TripAdvisor.
    O’Leary would try and sell tickets for the spare seats on the first leg, and then suffer a mutiny of activists and journalists that would have to be dragged off the plane by Libyan security forces.
    I suspect if the doors were opened in Tripoli, the flight might leave considerably lighter.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,723
    Donkeys said:

    Five horses have charged this morning through central London, including one covered in blood:

    "A lioness hath whelped in the streets;
    And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;
    Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
    In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
    Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol;
    The noise of battle hurtled in the air,
    Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan,
    And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets.
    "

    image

    time to ban these monsters from the streets of London, it's the 21st century why do we allow these creatures to go around shitting all over the roads?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
    I make it that you are out by a factor of approximately EIGHT on that stat.

    GDP is around £2300 billion - 2023 figure.

    So 0.5% of UK GDP is £11.5 billion.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
    I'm sure they can get a few useable things for that.

    Bigger salaries for the top brass.
    More civil servants.
    Better pensions.

    That's 3 just to start with. I'm sure Sir Humphrey has a few more to add.
    Maybe a few more generals and admirals for non existent divisions and ships?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    edited April 24

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    There's a subtle and important point there.

    No one expects perfect behaviour from either a Priest or a Christian (except possibly the type of self-righteous oafish individual who expresses their personal anger by shouting things like "THAT'S NOT VERY CHRISTIAN !!!", when they normally mean "You did something I don't like.").

    That is the very philosophical foundation of the faith, and as a basis I like it; it is a system of belief, aspiration and practice not a system of instructions or propositional logic. Individuals cannot be entirely judged as people on the basis of their behaviour or past behaviour. The Gospels are full of examples of that. There is only one judge of "who is a Christian".

    Around that there are practicalities of humans running human organisations in this particular society, and how resilience, guard rails etc need to work. That is a different set of questions, requirements and practices.

    On 'priesthood' or church leadership, at one end (eg Free Evangelical Churches) it is seen as a job like any other, for trained individuals. At the other (Roman Catholic) end aiui it is an ontological change for an individual, and is only reversed in extreme extremis - it might even formally require a referral to Rome. The Church of England, inevitably, has features of both.

    For Paula Vennells, aiui she resigned her License (ie ' Bishop's permission to officiate') 3 years ago this week, and so can do no priestly duties. Since she was an unpaid office holder ('Non Stipendiary Minister'), I'm not sure what more can be done. In any case, I don't see anything further being done whilst the whole thing is still essentially sub-judice, since it would make no practical difference, and criminal charges are very possible.

    One parallel case came up again this spring - Chris Brain former-leader of the Sheffield based "Nine O Clock Service" has been charged with various sexual offences dating back to 1983-1995, afaics after Me Too encouraged police complaints back in 2020 and there has been a 4-year police investigation.

    Brain was permanently barred from officiating in the Church of England in 1995 by the Archbishop of York, yet UK media are still calling him a "Priest" not a "former Priest".
    Thanks Matt.

    It's hardly my subject, but I believe I am right in saying that Ms V had no pastoral experience, which makes it rather intriguing that she was apparently in line to become a bishop (before of course the PO scandal showed her in an unfavorale light.)
    Good comments.

    "No pastoral experience" is not quite right. She was a Non-Stipendiary Minister, (sometimes termed "Self-Supporting Minister") which is what it says - basically Vicar level with no stipend. A "stipend" is an allowance to allow you to carry out a Ministry, which is generally a bit less than national median salary for someone with at least 2 degrees - the CofE correctly models that it wants people called by service, not driven by money. Half-way models might be part time or "house for duty".

    Her training for the NSM role would be the equivalent of one year full time, usually done as part of a group over 3 years at ~20 weekends per annum plus days plus conferences plus placement plus coursework - in her case St Albans Ministry Course. I have friends who have done it - it is very demanding, like a part time MBA and then more practical experience on top.

    She was Ordained in 2006, so has about 15 years of experience as a senior leader in a parish, which I would say is a lot of experience. That will have been preaching and leading services not much less than weekly, pastoral work in the parish, being on the PCC and in the leadership team, and so on. I would need to check Crockfords for full details.

    NSMs are usually people who work full or part time with a church / community focused ministry. There is another version of similar-level-qualified people who are known as MSEs, Ministers in Secular Employment - who have a particular focus towards the 'world of work' rather than the parish / community. They are like Industrial Chaplains with no stipend, in a particular professional context. Such combinations are immensely creative, but also have two orthogonal sets of demands, which can be very difficult to manage together.

    I'd say that she was shortlisted for Bp of London due to her strategic level experience in the Post Office plus her ordination, bearing in mind that the Diocese of London has thousands of staff, about 500 churches and a community of around a million people. In the event it went to the former Chief Nursing Officer for England, who was by then a Suffragan Bishop. I'd say that a jump form NSM to Senior Bishop especially London is just too much.

    My not very evidenced thought on what went wrong for Vennells is that she perhaps took on too much - very heavy senior roles at both home and work is too much for anyone, imo. So when the crisis emerged in the Post Office, there was not enough head space to deal with it effectively. And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail.
    Thanks Matt. That is very helpful for a dilettante like me trying to get my head around the mind set of somebody who combines senior management with a prominent Church role. The temptation is to dismiss her as a fraud but you may well be nearer the truth in your assessment.

    What I would say with some confidence is that she was out of her depth as CEO at the PO, regardless of other distractions, but then she isn't the only senior exec to be coming out of this badly.

    I see she is booked for three days in front of the Inquiry in May. On a purely personal note and disregarding all the horrors of the scandal, I do wonder how someone with any sensitivity at all copes on a day to day basis with the knowledge of what went on and knowing that she will be minutely scrutinised over her part in it. I couldn't bear it myself. Mrs PtP is cynical and says that such people are shameless, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

    Maybe we should all just wait and see what she says at the hearing. It should certainly be box office.
    I think that there are very many people in senior management positions who just don't care very much, if people suffer through their action, or inaction. I've encountered a fair number of people who apparently do not possess a conscience.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568

    Leon said:

    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better

    Also Time Fleas, a classic lost episode of Dr Who.
    I love the idea that time constantly absconds, it escapes, it is a fugitive on the run that we never quite capture and interrogate. It nails something crucial about the human condition

    Talking of which, I’m escaping Concarneu. It’s a beautiful medieval sea girt granite dump, full of miserable French people with whining kids and sullen wives all eating the same frozen crepes in one of 13 identical creperies and then buying the same crappy Chinese made “souvenirs” so they can remember their horrible day out in the rain

    Why do tourists do this? C’est stupide




  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."

    Was with her until she brought up right wing and left wing into it. The biggest problem with VAR, as implemented, is it makes the spectacle worse for fans in the stadium. At a minimum they should be hearing the referee-VAR discussion live on the PA system.
    I've just read the whole thread, and can't see any mention of right or left wing.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    @Casino_Royale Please PM me, if you want to meet for lunch.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,240
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    I think that's a fairly blatant attempt by the Telegraph to bounce Labour into something to create an attack line for later. Plus, what does the Shadow Attorney General have to do with setting defence policy - she's just restated the existing positon?

    A statement of the obvious vs a "promise" that will never be cashed.

    This is an excerpt:

    Emily Thornberry, the shadow attorney general, said this morning that Labour will seek to hit a target of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence “when circumstances allow”.

    But Rishi Sunak yesterday promised that under his leadership the number would be delivered by 2030.

    Asked if Labour would continue with the 2.5 per cent target “as and when” the party comes to power, Ms Thornberry told Sky News: “Not as and when we come to power but as and when we can. So when circumstances allow.”
    The issue is that Sunak has declared a commitment to a level of spending without any steps to deliver it. Even to say, we will work out the details later.

    It's a Comical Ali announcement. It does look like his administration has given up on serious government. It's all about setting bear traps for his successors.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.

    That's a ludicrously biased summary even of the piece as it reads, which itself shows considerable bias. Are the 'thugs' not 'local'? Or do you suppose Nigel Farage and Susan Hall are touring the country with a tow truck?
    Elementary reading comprehension. There is nothing in the piece to indicate that the vandals and thugs threatening the locals are themselves locals to the immediate area.

    If you think Mr Farage and Ms Hall are plausible culprits, feel free. It's a free world. But I don't think it likely.
    As someone who has actually witnessed the introduction of varying forms of pedestrianisation, I will bet the people removing bollards are local.

    Typically, the cafe owners like it, and like being able to use street space in summer. Some other shop owners will see a drop off in trade.

    Due to the political polarisation, it becomes an article of faith that it is either 100% Great For Everyone or 100% a Disaster For Everyone.

    In reality, just as with most things in human affairs, with any change there are winners and losers.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Tres said:

    Donkeys said:

    Five horses have charged this morning through central London, including one covered in blood:

    "A lioness hath whelped in the streets;
    And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;
    Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
    In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
    Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol;
    The noise of battle hurtled in the air,
    Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan,
    And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets.
    "

    image

    time to ban these monsters from the streets of London, it's the 21st century why do we allow these creatures to go around shitting all over the roads?
    They're ULEZ compliant, exempt from the congestion charge, and run on 100% renewable biofuel. Surely we should be subsidising this modern, eco-friendly means of transit?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    edited April 24
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Michael O'Leary offers to run the Rwanda flights:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/ryanair-ceo-says-he-d-happily-offer-rwanda-deportation-flights

    Or, alternatively, "Michael O'Leary spots an opportunity for publicity."

    His planes don’t have the range to get from Stansted to Kigali anyway!! He might just scrape it in a lightly-loaded 8 Max, with no sensible alternate.

    It’ll be a Crab Air A330, which not only has the range, but flies from an airbase with no journalists on it.
    Tech Stop in Tripoli. It's not like the passengers are going to get the arsehole and whinge on TripAdvisor.
    O’Leary would try and sell tickets for the spare seats on the first leg, and then suffer a mutiny of activists and journalists that would have to be dragged off the plane by Libyan security forces.
    I suspect if the doors were opened in Tripoli, the flight might leave considerably lighter.
    The Libyan Coastguard would be on the errr... passengers like tramps on chips.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    Latest AfD scandal, again involving Krah, their lead candidate in the euro elections:
    https://www.dw.com/en/china-spying-krah-stays-on-as-afds-top-euro-candidate/a-68906465

    'German EU lawmaker Maximilian Krah on Wednesday said he would remain the far-right Alternative for Germany's lead candidate in upcoming European elections, despite one of his employees being charged with espionage on behalf of Chinese intelligence.

    However, it was agreed that he should take a low profile at the start of the campaign.'

    'Krah has adopted a China-friendly stance, describing reports of human rights violations, such as internment camps for Uyghurs and other minorities in Xinjiang, as "anti-China propaganda."'
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
    Out by an order of magnitude there. And apparently the way they're counting our current spending (possibly including t support for Ukraine), we're already spending 2.2-2.3%, so the annual increase ends up being £4.4bn but the end of the decade.

    The MOD can lose that easily.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better

    Also Time Fleas, a classic lost episode of Dr Who.
    I love the idea that time constantly absconds, it escapes, it is a fugitive on the run that we never quite capture and interrogate. It nails something crucial about the human condition

    Talking of which, I’m escaping Concarneu. It’s a beautiful medieval sea girt granite dump, full of miserable French people with whining kids and sullen wives all eating the same frozen crepes in one of 13 identical creperies and then buying the same crappy Chinese made “souvenirs” so they can remember their horrible day out in the rain

    Why do tourists do this? C’est stupide




    Because there is sod all else to do when it rains. We did a 2 week holiday in June in Brittany many years ago. It rained every single day. Sometimes all day. It was miserable. My daughter got so bored she taught herself to crawl. The crepes were nice but jeez. One of our worst holidays.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."

    Was with her until she brought up right wing and left wing into it. The biggest problem with VAR, as implemented, is it makes the spectacle worse for fans in the stadium. At a minimum they should be hearing the referee-VAR discussion live on the PA system.
    I've just read the whole thread, and can't see any mention of right or left wing.
    "If football were run by the right wing post-modernists, it would be a tremendously exciting spectacle. If football were run by the left wing post-modernists, it would be a tremendously dull spectacle."
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    kamski said:

    Latest AfD scandal, again involving Krah, their lead candidate in the euro elections:
    https://www.dw.com/en/china-spying-krah-stays-on-as-afds-top-euro-candidate/a-68906465

    'German EU lawmaker Maximilian Krah on Wednesday said he would remain the far-right Alternative for Germany's lead candidate in upcoming European elections, despite one of his employees being charged with espionage on behalf of Chinese intelligence.

    However, it was agreed that he should take a low profile at the start of the campaign.'

    'Krah has adopted a China-friendly stance, describing reports of human rights violations, such as internment camps for Uyghurs and other minorities in Xinjiang, as "anti-China propaganda."'

    A lot of far right politicians seem to be assets for Russia or China.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,468
    Have we done David Cameron saying we need the Rwanda plan because of Brexit? https://x.com/implausibleblog/status/1783029682754970071
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177

    Andy_JS said:

    Former Tory MP for Tamworth, Chris Pincher, is still penning articles for the Critic.

    "What makes a gentleman tick?
    Of course, there are watches and there are watches, and then there are watches
    Christopher Pincher"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/what-makes-a-gentleman-tick/

    Pretty trite choices by the Pincher.

    Next up on The Critic, Mark Menzies on why the bespoke suit is a comfort when assailed by bad people.
    For money agnostic dress advice, go here:
    https://twitter.com/dieworkwear
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
    Out by an order of magnitude there. And apparently the way they're counting our current spending (possibly including t support for Ukraine), we're already spending 2.2-2.3%, so the annual increase ends up being £4.4bn but the end of the decade.

    The MOD can lose that easily.
    You're right. Decimal point in wrong place.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman_anti-aircraft_system could be put back into production with a moderate amount of effort, if I understand correctly. Fits pretty much any old tank you can find to put it in.

    The big problem is requirements matrices that contradict each other (tank like protection for self propelled guns - but must be air-portable) and are unique to the UK.

    We could buy 1,000 Archers for £8 billion - which is less money than has been spent on not replacing a 150(?) AS-90s over multiple years. And we would get the factory to build them, as part of the deal.
    An additional 0.5% of GDP is just over £100bn a year. Even the MOD should be able to get something useable for that.
    I'm sure they can get a few useable things for that.

    Bigger salaries for the top brass.
    More civil servants.
    Better pensions.

    That's 3 just to start with. I'm sure Sir Humphrey has a few more to add.
    Maybe a few more generals and admirals for non existent divisions and ships?
    Fact finding missions to the Caymans? Workshops on how not to have unconscious bias about the person shooting at you?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    Latest AfD scandal, again involving Krah, their lead candidate in the euro elections:
    https://www.dw.com/en/china-spying-krah-stays-on-as-afds-top-euro-candidate/a-68906465

    'German EU lawmaker Maximilian Krah on Wednesday said he would remain the far-right Alternative for Germany's lead candidate in upcoming European elections, despite one of his employees being charged with espionage on behalf of Chinese intelligence.

    However, it was agreed that he should take a low profile at the start of the campaign.'

    'Krah has adopted a China-friendly stance, describing reports of human rights violations, such as internment camps for Uyghurs and other minorities in Xinjiang, as "anti-China propaganda."'

    A lot of far right politicians seem to be assets for Russia or China.
    Or, as in this case, both
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,145
    You take a dog to all these interesting destinations full of new smells, and all they want to do is play with the same ball that we have at home


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    Latest AfD scandal, again involving Krah, their lead candidate in the euro elections:
    https://www.dw.com/en/china-spying-krah-stays-on-as-afds-top-euro-candidate/a-68906465

    'German EU lawmaker Maximilian Krah on Wednesday said he would remain the far-right Alternative for Germany's lead candidate in upcoming European elections, despite one of his employees being charged with espionage on behalf of Chinese intelligence.

    However, it was agreed that he should take a low profile at the start of the campaign.'

    'Krah has adopted a China-friendly stance, describing reports of human rights violations, such as internment camps for Uyghurs and other minorities in Xinjiang, as "anti-China propaganda."'

    A lot of far right politicians seem to be assets for Russia or China.
    The horse-shoe theory in action. As we just saw in the US Congress, there’s actually only a dozen Rs and and a dozen Ds who don’t support arming Ukraine, when other petty party political considerations are removed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Interesting thread re VAR. This is just the first tweet.

    https://twitter.com/daisychristo/status/1782131160224518633

    "Daisy Christodoulou
    @daisychristo

    During lockdown, I wrote 30k words about VAR and measurement theory. No-one wanted to publish it - they all said it was mad.
    But offsides like this Coventry one mean I can't stop thinking about it.
    3 major issues."

    Was with her until she brought up right wing and left wing into it. The biggest problem with VAR, as implemented, is it makes the spectacle worse for fans in the stadium. At a minimum they should be hearing the referee-VAR discussion live on the PA system.
    The spectacle wasn't any better at home on the sofa tbh.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    Th
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better

    Also Time Fleas, a classic lost episode of Dr Who.
    I love the idea that time constantly absconds, it escapes, it is a fugitive on the run that we never quite capture and interrogate. It nails something crucial about the human condition

    Talking of which, I’m escaping Concarneu. It’s a beautiful medieval sea girt granite dump, full of miserable French people with whining kids and sullen wives all eating the same frozen crepes in one of 13 identical creperies and then buying the same crappy Chinese made “souvenirs” so they can remember their horrible day out in the rain

    Why do tourists do this? C’est stupide




    Because there is sod all else to do when it rains. We did a 2 week holiday in June in Brittany many years ago. It rained every single day. Sometimes all day. It was miserable. My daughter got so bored she taught herself to crawl. The crepes were nice but jeez. One of our worst holidays.
    Yes. If I had one family holiday a year no way I’d risk Brittany. You want guaranteed sun for the kids - which makes for happy parents

    I absolutely do understand families that flock to the same resorts on the Costas

    But this is April in Brittany, a place full of magical towns and curious sites - with creperies everywhere. Yet they all crowd in here - and the parking is a nightmare. And they’re French. C’est un mystere
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    Leon said:

    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better

    Too easily confused with the Gallifreyan parasite time fleas.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    There's a subtle and important point there.

    No one expects perfect behaviour from either a Priest or a Christian (except possibly the type of self-righteous oafish individual who expresses their personal anger by shouting things like "THAT'S NOT VERY CHRISTIAN !!!", when they normally mean "You did something I don't like.").

    That is the very philosophical foundation of the faith, and as a basis I like it; it is a system of belief, aspiration and practice not a system of instructions or propositional logic. Individuals cannot be entirely judged as people on the basis of their behaviour or past behaviour. The Gospels are full of examples of that. There is only one judge of "who is a Christian".

    Around that there are practicalities of humans running human organisations in this particular society, and how resilience, guard rails etc need to work. That is a different set of questions, requirements and practices.

    On 'priesthood' or church leadership, at one end (eg Free Evangelical Churches) it is seen as a job like any other, for trained individuals. At the other (Roman Catholic) end aiui it is an ontological change for an individual, and is only reversed in extreme extremis - it might even formally require a referral to Rome. The Church of England, inevitably, has features of both.

    For Paula Vennells, aiui she resigned her License (ie ' Bishop's permission to officiate') 3 years ago this week, and so can do no priestly duties. Since she was an unpaid office holder ('Non Stipendiary Minister'), I'm not sure what more can be done. In any case, I don't see anything further being done whilst the whole thing is still essentially sub-judice, since it would make no practical difference, and criminal charges are very possible.

    One parallel case came up again this spring - Chris Brain former-leader of the Sheffield based "Nine O Clock Service" has been charged with various sexual offences dating back to 1983-1995, afaics after Me Too encouraged police complaints back in 2020 and there has been a 4-year police investigation.

    Brain was permanently barred from officiating in the Church of England in 1995 by the Archbishop of York, yet UK media are still calling him a "Priest" not a "former Priest".
    Thanks Matt.

    It's hardly my subject, but I believe I am right in saying that Ms V had no pastoral experience, which makes it rather intriguing that she was apparently in line to become a bishop (before of course the PO scandal showed her in an unfavorale light.)
    Good comments.

    "No pastoral experience" is not quite right. She was a Non-Stipendiary Minister, (sometimes termed "Self-Supporting Minister") which is what it says - basically Vicar level with no stipend. A "stipend" is an allowance to allow you to carry out a Ministry, which is generally a bit less than national median salary for someone with at least 2 degrees - the CofE correctly models that it wants people called by service, not driven by money. Half-way models might be part time or "house for duty".

    Her training for the NSM role would be the equivalent of one year full time, usually done as part of a group over 3 years at ~20 weekends per annum plus days plus conferences plus placement plus coursework - in her case St Albans Ministry Course. I have friends who have done it - it is very demanding, like a part time MBA and then more practical experience on top.

    She was Ordained in 2006, so has about 15 years of experience as a senior leader in a parish, which I would say is a lot of experience. That will have been preaching and leading services not much less than weekly, pastoral work in the parish, being on the PCC and in the leadership team, and so on. I would need to check Crockfords for full details.

    NSMs are usually people who work full or part time with a church / community focused ministry. There is another version of similar-level-qualified people who are known as MSEs, Ministers in Secular Employment - who have a particular focus towards the 'world of work' rather than the parish / community. They are like Industrial Chaplains with no stipend, in a particular professional context. Such combinations are immensely creative, but also have two orthogonal sets of demands, which can be very difficult to manage together.

    I'd say that she was shortlisted for Bp of London due to her strategic level experience in the Post Office plus her ordination, bearing in mind that the Diocese of London has thousands of staff, about 500 churches and a community of around a million people. In the event it went to the former Chief Nursing Officer for England, who was by then a Suffragan Bishop. I'd say that a jump form NSM to Senior Bishop especially London is just too much.

    My not very evidenced thought on what went wrong for Vennells is that she perhaps took on too much - very heavy senior roles at both home and work is too much for anyone, imo. So when the crisis emerged in the Post Office, there was not enough head space to deal with it effectively. And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail.
    Thanks Matt. That is very helpful for a dilettante like me trying to get my head around the mind set of somebody who combines senior management with a prominent Church role. The temptation is to dismiss her as a fraud but you may well be nearer the truth in your assessment.

    What I would say with some confidence is that she was out of her depth as CEO at the PO, regardless of other distractions, but then she isn't the only senior exec to be coming out of this badly.

    I see she is booked for three days in front of the Inquiry in May. On a purely personal note and disregarding all the horrors of the scandal, I do wonder how someone with any sensitivity at all copes on a day to day basis with the knowledge of what went on and knowing that she will be minutely scrutinised over her part in it. I couldn't bear it myself. Mrs PtP is cynical and says that such people are shameless, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

    Maybe we should all just wait and see what she says at the hearing. It should certainly be box office.
    I think that there are very many people in senior management positions who just don't care very much, if people suffer through their action, or inaction. I've encountered a fair number of people who apparently do not possess a conscience.
    Oh sure there are many more psychopaths in senior management then there are out on the street killing people. I knew one in the public sector constantly moving from job to job none lasting more than 2 to 3 years and constantly failing upwards.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,723
    kyf_100 said:

    Tres said:

    Donkeys said:

    Five horses have charged this morning through central London, including one covered in blood:

    "A lioness hath whelped in the streets;
    And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;
    Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
    In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
    Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol;
    The noise of battle hurtled in the air,
    Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan,
    And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets.
    "

    image

    time to ban these monsters from the streets of London, it's the 21st century why do we allow these creatures to go around shitting all over the roads?
    They're ULEZ compliant, exempt from the congestion charge, and run on 100% renewable biofuel. Surely we should be subsidising this modern, eco-friendly means of transit?
    harumph, I for one will be boycotting Lloyds until they sort their free roaming horses out.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    @KevinASchofield

    Angela Rayner scores a last-minute winner by accusing the Tories of "ditching their biggest election winner for a pint-sized loser".

    Amazing scenes.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    Latest AfD scandal, again involving Krah, their lead candidate in the euro elections:
    https://www.dw.com/en/china-spying-krah-stays-on-as-afds-top-euro-candidate/a-68906465

    'German EU lawmaker Maximilian Krah on Wednesday said he would remain the far-right Alternative for Germany's lead candidate in upcoming European elections, despite one of his employees being charged with espionage on behalf of Chinese intelligence.

    However, it was agreed that he should take a low profile at the start of the campaign.'

    'Krah has adopted a China-friendly stance, describing reports of human rights violations, such as internment camps for Uyghurs and other minorities in Xinjiang, as "anti-China propaganda."'

    A lot of far right politicians seem to be assets for Russia or China.
    The horse-shoe theory in action. As we just saw in the US Congress, there’s actually only a dozen Rs and and a dozen Ds who don’t support arming Ukraine, when other petty party political considerations are removed.
    Unfortunately one of the dozen Rs is their candidate for Commander in Chief.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    Angela Rayner scores a last-minute winner by accusing the Tories of "ditching their biggest election winner for a pint-sized loser".

    Amazing scenes.

    Gutted I missed it, sounds brilliant.

    Watching New Tricks instead. The one about the Wicca lot with Stephanie Beacham and Dearbhla Molloy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    @steve_hawkes

    Odds on next Tory leader (Betfair Exchange)
    Kemi Badenoch – 7/2
    Penny Mordaunt – 5/1
    James Cleverly – 10/1
    Suella Braverman – 9/1
    Priti Patel – 8/1
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Also Fpt that theme of time flying and how to spend your years. Just saw this walking in to the walled sea girt medieval town of Concarneau on a raw Breton day



    “Time flees like a shadow”

    Is that the original quote from which tempus fugit comes? Didn’t know that

    And it’s “time flees” not “time flies”. I’ve always had that wrong. “Time flees” is much much better

    Too easily confused with the Gallifreyan parasite time fleas.
    To whom to Rassilons tower will go
    Must choose above, between, below.
  • Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.
    What's really needs is munition production.

    In volume.

    Yesterday.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    edited April 24
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    There's a subtle and important point there.

    No one expects perfect behaviour from either a Priest or a Christian (except possibly the type of self-righteous oafish individual who expresses their personal anger by shouting things like "THAT'S NOT VERY CHRISTIAN !!!", when they normally mean "You did something I don't like.").

    That is the very philosophical foundation of the faith, and as a basis I like it; it is a system of belief, aspiration and practice not a system of instructions or propositional logic. Individuals cannot be entirely judged as people on the basis of their behaviour or past behaviour. The Gospels are full of examples of that. There is only one judge of "who is a Christian".

    Around that there are practicalities of humans running human organisations in this particular society, and how resilience, guard rails etc need to work. That is a different set of questions, requirements and practices.

    On 'priesthood' or church leadership, at one end (eg Free Evangelical Churches) it is seen as a job like any other, for trained individuals. At the other (Roman Catholic) end aiui it is an ontological change for an individual, and is only reversed in extreme extremis - it might even formally require a referral to Rome. The Church of England, inevitably, has features of both.

    For Paula Vennells, aiui she resigned her License (ie ' Bishop's permission to officiate') 3 years ago this week, and so can do no priestly duties. Since she was an unpaid office holder ('Non Stipendiary Minister'), I'm not sure what more can be done. In any case, I don't see anything further being done whilst the whole thing is still essentially sub-judice, since it would make no practical difference, and criminal charges are very possible.

    One parallel case came up again this spring - Chris Brain former-leader of the Sheffield based "Nine O Clock Service" has been charged with various sexual offences dating back to 1983-1995, afaics after Me Too encouraged police complaints back in 2020 and there has been a 4-year police investigation.

    Brain was permanently barred from officiating in the Church of England in 1995 by the Archbishop of York, yet UK media are still calling him a "Priest" not a "former Priest".
    Thanks Matt.

    It's hardly my subject, but I believe I am right in saying that Ms V had no pastoral experience, which makes it rather intriguing that she was apparently in line to become a bishop (before of course the PO scandal showed her in an unfavorale light.)
    Good comments.

    "No pastoral experience" is not quite right. She was a Non-Stipendiary Minister, (sometimes termed "Self-Supporting Minister") which is what it says - basically Vicar level with no stipend. A "stipend" is an allowance to allow you to carry out a Ministry, which is generally a bit less than national median salary for someone with at least 2 degrees - the CofE correctly models that it wants people called by service, not driven by money. Half-way models might be part time or "house for duty".

    Her training for the NSM role would be the equivalent of one year full time, usually done as part of a group over 3 years at ~20 weekends per annum plus days plus conferences plus placement plus coursework - in her case St Albans Ministry Course. I have friends who have done it - it is very demanding, like a part time MBA and then more practical experience on top.

    She was Ordained in 2006, so has about 15 years of experience as a senior leader in a parish, which I would say is a lot of experience. That will have been preaching and leading services not much less than weekly, pastoral work in the parish, being on the PCC and in the leadership team, and so on. I would need to check Crockfords for full details.

    NSMs are usually people who work full or part time with a church / community focused ministry. There is another version of similar-level-qualified people who are known as MSEs, Ministers in Secular Employment - who have a particular focus towards the 'world of work' rather than the parish / community. They are like Industrial Chaplains with no stipend, in a particular professional context. Such combinations are immensely creative, but also have two orthogonal sets of demands, which can be very difficult to manage together.

    I'd say that she was shortlisted for Bp of London due to her strategic level experience in the Post Office plus her ordination, bearing in mind that the Diocese of London has thousands of staff, about 500 churches and a community of around a million people. In the event it went to the former Chief Nursing Officer for England, who was by then a Suffragan Bishop. I'd say that a jump form NSM to Senior Bishop especially London is just too much.

    My not very evidenced thought on what went wrong for Vennells is that she perhaps took on too much - very heavy senior roles at both home and work is too much for anyone, imo. So when the crisis emerged in the Post Office, there was not enough head space to deal with it effectively. And something had to give, which was curiosity and attention to detail.
    Thanks Matt. That is very helpful for a dilettante like me trying to get my head around the mind set of somebody who combines senior management with a prominent Church role. The temptation is to dismiss her as a fraud but you may well be nearer the truth in your assessment.

    What I would say with some confidence is that she was out of her depth as CEO at the PO, regardless of other distractions, but then she isn't the only senior exec to be coming out of this badly.

    I see she is booked for three days in front of the Inquiry in May. On a purely personal note and disregarding all the horrors of the scandal, I do wonder how someone with any sensitivity at all copes on a day to day basis with the knowledge of what went on and knowing that she will be minutely scrutinised over her part in it. I couldn't bear it myself. Mrs PtP is cynical and says that such people are shameless, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

    Maybe we should all just wait and see what she says at the hearing. It should certainly be box office.
    I think that there are very many people in senior management positions who just don't care very much, if people suffer through their action, or inaction. I've encountered a fair number of people who apparently do not possess a conscience.
    I think we can certainly say that there have certainly been very serious errors, with massively serious consequences.

    But I won't judge the motivations of the individual, and I hope I wouldn't do that for too many others.

    That's one risk I have in my attitude to our current Government. In my view their current policies constitute Full Attack on Disabled People (eg make them even poorer to 'force them into work', whilst reducing the transport options that would allow them to get there), for the sake of tax cuts to save a few votes and salvage a few political backsides. I hope it is because they are panicking enough to have lost sight of their own values; but I don't have the evidence to call that.

    To repurpose Elizabeth I: I aim to tray and avoid making windows into men's souls, until such time as I have at least some evidence as to motivations; I don't always succeed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    edited April 24
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Former Tory MP for Tamworth, Chris Pincher, is still penning articles for the Critic.

    "What makes a gentleman tick?
    Of course, there are watches and there are watches, and then there are watches
    Christopher Pincher"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/what-makes-a-gentleman-tick/

    Pretty trite choices by the Pincher.

    Next up on The Critic, Mark Menzies on why the bespoke suit is a comfort when assailed by bad people.
    For money agnostic dress advice, go here:
    https://twitter.com/dieworkwear
    Oh, I’m already an avid follower. Very sound on most things, especially the ghastly dress sense of the US Right.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    Scott_xP said:

    @steve_hawkes

    Odds on next Tory leader (Betfair Exchange)
    Kemi Badenoch – 7/2
    Penny Mordaunt – 5/1
    James Cleverly – 10/1
    Suella Braverman – 9/1
    Priti Patel – 8/1

    Cleverly is an interesting bet there. The safest of safe seats, and could split the Badenoch and Mourdaunt factions down the middle in the post-election contest.
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,247
    I'm not sure I agree with TSE's conclusions here. People are pretty sceptical about the scheme right now but that is because a lot of time and effort has been made and no-one has been deported. The key for Sunak is that he needs to successfully send some people to Rwanda and then he needs the small boat numbers to drop over the summer. IF that happens then voters might start to reevaluate
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    We live in interesting times.

    Observation and control of Casimir effects in a sphere-plate-sphere system
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-33915-4
    A remarkable prediction of quantum field theory is that there are quantum electromagnetic fluctuations (virtual photons) everywhere, which leads to the intriguing Casimir effect. While the Casimir force between two objects has been studied extensively for several decades, the Casimir force between three objects has not been measured yet. Here, we report the experimental demonstration of an object under the Casimir force exerted by two other objects simultaneously. Our Casimir system consists of a micrometer-thick cantilever placed in between two microspheres, forming a unique sphere-plate-sphere geometry. We also propose and demonstrate a three-terminal switchable architecture exploiting opto-mechanical Casimir interactions that can lay the foundations of a Casimir transistor. Beyond the paradigm of Casimir forces between two objects in different geometries, our Casimir transistor represents an important development for controlling three-body virtual photon interactions and will have potential applications in sensing and information processing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    Tres said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Tres said:

    Donkeys said:

    Five horses have charged this morning through central London, including one covered in blood:

    "A lioness hath whelped in the streets;
    And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;
    Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
    In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
    Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol;
    The noise of battle hurtled in the air,
    Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan,
    And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets.
    "

    image

    time to ban these monsters from the streets of London, it's the 21st century why do we allow these creatures to go around shitting all over the roads?
    They're ULEZ compliant, exempt from the congestion charge, and run on 100% renewable biofuel. Surely we should be subsidising this modern, eco-friendly means of transit?
    harumph, I for one will be boycotting Lloyds until they sort their free roaming horses out.
    I believe they were injured by a London Bus and a Mercedes, smashing the windows thereof.

    Bloody motor vehicles with no passive safety for galloping horses.

    :smiley::wink:
  • I'm not sure I agree with TSE's conclusions here. People are pretty sceptical about the scheme right now but that is because a lot of time and effort has been made and no-one has been deported. The key for Sunak is that he needs to successfully send some people to Rwanda and then he needs the small boat numbers to drop over the summer. IF that happens then voters might start to reevaluate

    If it happens then voters may change their views on this policy, but I'm not sure if many voters will change their votes based on this policy.

    To be honest I think the die is cast and there's nothing Sunak can do besides count down the days and lose, or resign.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766
    Nigelb said:



    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.

    Before he got fired for not being a delusional optimist, Zaluzhny called the SMO "война одного шанса" lit. "The War of One Chance".

    His point was that both sides would roll out some new system (he specifically referred to HIMARS) and then the other side would learn how to counter it so they only ever really got "one chance" to get the most out of anything.

    So if the UK were going to spend more on defence, which they definitely shouldn't as 90% of it would be jizzed up the wall to no effect, then it would be better to spend the money on industrial and research capacity rather than shitloads of hardware that only has one chance to be fully effective.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145
    Scott_xP said:

    @steve_hawkes

    Odds on next Tory leader (Betfair Exchange)
    Kemi Badenoch – 7/2
    Penny Mordaunt – 5/1
    James Cleverly – 10/1
    Suella Braverman – 9/1
    Priti Patel – 8/1

    That is depressing. Part of me hopes they just choose Braverman so they can either collapse and then rejuvenate in a few years time or simply collapse into irrelevance.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.
    What's really needs is munition production.

    In volume.

    Yesterday.
    As I noted, that's something you can't do quickly. Give BAE an order for ten years' supply, though, and they will start building it using their own capital.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
    The improvised drones dropping grenades seem to have completely disappeared. They're all FPV drones flying directly into the target at the moment.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    On the subject of cold weather, and interesting little correlation between what happens here in summer and what happens to Arctic sea ice.

    Our very worst summers tend to occur when there's high pressure over Greenland and the Arctic sea, and low pressure with Northerly winds over Western Europe. Created by a pattern called the Arctic Oscillation. Particularly bad when the high pressure is situated over the Bering sea on the Alaskan side of the Arctic ocean.

    The biggest summers for ice melt in the Arctic also occur with this same pattern. It brings sunshine to the basin, especially in early summer when there's 24 hour light, and flushes ice floes in a clockwise direction before flushing them out of the Arctic down the Fram Strait to the East of Greenland on the same Northerly winds that blight our bad summers.

    We had a run of those types of pattern back in the late 2000s and early 2010s and it got everyone very excited about sea ice disappearing within a few years. Then it reversed and sea ice loss bounced back and then returned back to its longer term, slower trend. The two most marked record ice melt years in recent times were not coincidentally 2007 and 2012, both of which were shit summers here.

    AO is loosely correlated with a few things including the so-called Quasi-Biennial Oscillation in the stratosphere (which switches from Westerly to Easterly and back again roughly every 2 years), the state of El Nino / La Nina, and the intensity of solar activity, as well as Atlantic sea surface temperatures. The worrying thing for our summer prospects is that a mature El Nino phasing into a La Nina seems often to be associated with negative AO. That's what we have this year in the Pacific, and it's exactly the pattern that is bringing us this unseasonably cold weather.

    By the way there also seems to be a negative relationship between Arctic and Antarctic temperatures and sea ice. So the big melt years in the North have tended to be decent ice retention years in the Antarctic and vice versa. The Antarctic is currently colder than average.

    So it may be a year of record Arctic ice loss, and an awful cold wet British summer. But hopefully not.

    Current sea ice - to watch as the melting season gets going in May and June: https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    I'm not sure I agree with TSE's conclusions here. People are pretty sceptical about the scheme right now but that is because a lot of time and effort has been made and no-one has been deported. The key for Sunak is that he needs to successfully send some people to Rwanda and then he needs the small boat numbers to drop over the summer. IF that happens then voters might start to reevaluate

    If it happens then voters may change their views on this policy, but I'm not sure if many voters will change their votes based on this policy.

    To be honest I think the die is cast and there's nothing Sunak can do besides count down the days and lose, or resign.
    Its not really going to make much difference to anyone bar gamblers and a few careerist MPs whether the majority is 50, 150 or 250.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    I know this was touched on yesterday. I just don't get this. If there are 72,000 jobs in the civil service that can just be culled to fund defence spending then why the hell are they already being filled and have not been culled already if they are superfluous. Also how much will it cost in terms of severance pay.

    I suspect this is all BS, there are not 72,000 civil servants sitting there twiddling their thumbs taking a salary for doing nowt. Just more lazy political rhetoric.

    The sooner this govt is put to bed the better.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/72-000-civil-service-job-cuts-will-pay-for-75bn-in-defence-says-grant-shapps/ar-AA1nzIUT?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=03e2ae92248744509ba668293e7c8251&ei=26
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.
    What's really needs is munition production.

    In volume.

    Yesterday.
    As I noted, that's something you can't do quickly. Give BAE an order for ten years' supply, though, and they will start building it using their own capital.
    Especially as defence spending is ESG compliant now
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    I'm not sure I agree with TSE's conclusions here. People are pretty sceptical about the scheme right now but that is because a lot of time and effort has been made and no-one has been deported. The key for Sunak is that he needs to successfully send some people to Rwanda and then he needs the small boat numbers to drop over the summer. IF that happens then voters might start to reevaluate

    If it happens then voters may change their views on this policy, but I'm not sure if many voters will change their votes based on this policy.

    To be honest I think the die is cast and there's nothing Sunak can do besides count down the days and lose, or resign.
    The other challenge here is that immigration salience among voters tends to go up and down with numbers. So if small boats come down (even if legal migration remains high - though I expect that to come down automatically anyway due to the HK, Ukraine and Covid student effects exiting the system) people will stop worrying about it and instead focus on other topics like the economy or NHS.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    By the way, if anyone wants actually useful advice on

    WHAT TO DO WITH THE KIDS IN BRITTANY WHEN IT RAINS

    I can tell you. Go to this place.. Haliotika. A fishing museum

    It sounds terrible - glass boxes full of nets? - but it’s actually brilliant. It’s focused around the return of the local coastal fishing fleet which happens every day around 4-5pm. It was already an ad hoc spectacle attracting crowds in 2002, so the locals decided to build a museum around it. You watch the fleet come in and you can watch them unload and then you follow them into the factory and see the fish being bought end sold and iced and shipped off

    Then they show you the fish and they’ve got an actual trawler inside and you can be a captain steering it and lots and lots of fascinating things which kids adore but which adults also like. And they’ve got a great restaurant selling the langoustines you’ve just watched being unloaded

    Superbe. When the French do tourism they often do it really well. Inspired idea




  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour will not match Tory defence spending plans, says Thornberry"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-heappey-defence-cameron-boats/

    Ooof. Bad move. It needs fixing. Although I criticised Sunak's knee-jerk, the defence problem needs fixing, and if that means spending money, then money must be spent. It's not a nice-to-have.
    There is an urgent need to address our need for modern weapon systems, specifically drones and drone defence systems, without which it is now obvious no modern military can operate. The rate at which each version of these is becoming obsolete suggests that this is going to be a significant ongoing expenditure.

    We have also discovered that having sufficient ammunition to fight a 2 week war in Europe is completely insufficient and far greater reserves are needed.

    Its not easy to see how either of these can be met from current budgets which already seem overstretched and over committed.

    And finally, and perhaps most critically of all, we may find in November that the defence pact on which we have relied since the end of WW 2 is no longer something we can count on.
    The drone thing is probably not a matter if spending billions - or even hundreds of millions. It's more about innovation, and we are making some efforts:
    https://dronexl.co/2024/04/22/drone-london-defence-tech-hackathon/

    Missile stocks is another matter, but even in that case, committed multiyear funding is more important than the headline figures. Our manufacturers need guaranteed orders for the rest of the decade in order to invest in the production facilities.

    The drone stuff is now really easy to do with military budgets, and the Ukranians have demonstrated the hell out of improvised small drones dropping shells in close combat.

    What you want is mostly small armed drones, that are designed to either take out or waste expensive air defences.

    We also need layered air defences, that can shoot down small drones with small rockets, rather than wasting million-dollar missiles on them.

    The UK should be selling the hell out of whatever we can currently and easily produce. European defence budgets are all about to go up.

    The real money is going to be in cheap guidance systems that use no Chinese technology.
    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.
    What's really needs is munition production.

    In volume.

    Yesterday.
    As I noted, that's something you can't do quickly. Give BAE an order for ten years' supply, though, and they will start building it using their own capital.
    I think there's a potential plus for the Govt in more transparency rather than word salads saying very little.

    How much has our manufacture of 155mm shells gone up at Washington?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:



    Drones also obsolete *really* fast, so there's no point stockpiling thousands of them. Components like motors, possibly...

    What's needed is production capacity, and the ability to innovate/iterate.

    Before he got fired for not being a delusional optimist, Zaluzhny called the SMO "война одного шанса" lit. "The War of One Chance".

    His point was that both sides would roll out some new system (he specifically referred to HIMARS) and then the other side would learn how to counter it so they only ever really got "one chance" to get the most out of anything.

    So if the UK were going to spend more on defence, which they definitely shouldn't as 90% of it would be jizzed up the wall to no effect, then it would be better to spend the money on industrial and research capacity rather than shitloads of hardware that only has one chance to be fully effective.
    Absolutely. Fucking Ajax, or Challenger III being good examples.

    Some hardware - mortar bombs and 155mm shells, for example - doesn't obsolete quickly, though.

    And the U.S. is building brand new systems (with BAE) using 2.75in rocket motors which were stockpiled maybe forty years ago.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,458
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    Angela Rayner scores a last-minute winner by accusing the Tories of "ditching their biggest election winner for a pint-sized loser".

    Amazing scenes.

    I quite liked Downden's 'If she spends any more time here, she'll claim it as her primary residence' or somesuch.

    I don't like stuff that concentrates on someone's physical attributes. Sunak cannot help his height; and it's perfectly possible to be 'pint sized' and very competent. Yet you rarely see someone say: "That lanky loser." The nearest I can think of is someone saying; "The air's so thin up there that his brain can't work properly." Which does not trip easily off the tongue...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,121
    Taz said:

    I know this was touched on yesterday. I just don't get this. If there are 72,000 jobs in the civil service that can just be culled to fund defence spending then why the hell are they already being filled and have not been culled already if they are superfluous. Also how much will it cost in terms of severance pay.

    I suspect this is all BS, there are not 72,000 civil servants sitting there twiddling their thumbs taking a salary for doing nowt. Just more lazy political rhetoric.

    The sooner this govt is put to bed the better.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/72-000-civil-service-job-cuts-will-pay-for-75bn-in-defence-says-grant-shapps/ar-AA1nzIUT?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=03e2ae92248744509ba668293e7c8251&ei=26

    It is utter bollx.

    Only a few days ago he proposed recruiting more civil servants to take over the role of writing Fit Notes from GPs.

    Of course they will be outsourced civil servants working for Atos or someone like that but it's still a load of £.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766

    Sunak cannot help his height;

    The little shit could pass legislation to say he was 6'2".
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    ...

    I'm not sure I agree with TSE's conclusions here. People are pretty sceptical about the scheme right now but that is because a lot of time and effort has been made and no-one has been deported. The key for Sunak is that he needs to successfully send some people to Rwanda and then he needs the small boat numbers to drop over the summer. IF that happens then voters might start to reevaluate

    Part A should be a rip roaring success. Part B relies on asylum seekers watching GeeBeebies and reading the Mail, or alternatively we have a summer of God awful weather in the Channel. Now that would stop the boats.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,121
    Sunak claims defence spending plan won't affect government's ability to keep cutting taxes

    Guardian live blog


    The Tory Magic Money Tree.

    Why don't they get hammered the way Labour would be if they came up with this crap??
This discussion has been closed.