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Why the flights to Rwanda will not help Sunak – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited May 12 in General
Why the flights to Rwanda will not help Sunak – politicalbetting.com

Start the flights.Stop the boats.That's what this bill delivers. pic.twitter.com/y93Ti3qe2k

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    edited April 24
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    The Guardian kept quiet about New Labours calamitous plans to raid DB pensions. A raid that signalled the death knell for DB pensions for the private sector and, due to the migration away from equities in pension funds, yielded very little for the Treasury too.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/guardian-editor-kept-quiet-about-labour-s-1997-raid-on-pensions/ar-AA1nwInh?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f5da48626b1d4c2cfc7f813e42f60231&ei=10
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027
    FPT
    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,449
    Even if you are comfortable with the concept, what is the point in sending a couple of dozen a week(?) That's all the downsides and minimal deterrent effect.

    This programme really boils down to Go Big Or Go Home.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 489
    Between the Rwanda bill (aka anti echr bill) and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain than ever that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,980
    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,449
    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Up to a point, Lord Copper.

    There's definitely a place for people (mostly young, mostly mobile) who need a home on a timescale of months to a couple of years. And the current tenancy model serves that fairly well.

    Trouble is that the same private rental sector is now having to provide people with homes where it's reasonable to want to stay for longer, and it does that very badly. A society where people who want to put down roots in a place but can't is a worse society.

    Probably the answer is that there are nowhere near enough homes, so the landlord-tenant power balance is out of whack. Just build more homes where people want to live and all that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    Oh no! Hope it's nothing too serious.
  • Smart51Smart51 Posts: 63
    Sunak is wrong on this one. He may start the flights. It won't stop the boats.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    edited April 24

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Up to a point, Lord Copper.

    There's definitely a place for people (mostly young, mostly mobile) who need a home on a timescale of months to a couple of years. And the current tenancy model serves that fairly well.

    Trouble is that the same private rental sector is now having to provide people with homes where it's reasonable to want to stay for longer, and it does that very badly. A society where people who want to put down roots in a place but can't is a worse society.

    Probably the answer is that there are nowhere near enough homes, so the landlord-tenant power balance is out of whack. Just build more homes where people want to live and all that.
    Good morning everyone!

    Good post; when my wife and I got married, we wanted to be together for life, but we didn’t know where that life was going to be. So we rented somewhere until circumstances determined where we would be.
    Same applied to my sister and her husband; however my wife’s brother and his wife knew they weren’t going to move far from their hometown, or at least were pretty certain of it, so bought somewhere straight away.
    And in fact, that’s how things turned out.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Of course a rented property is your home.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Quite; it remains to be seen whether the top brass at the PO give the same impression.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Of course a rented property is your home.
    Perhaps they can get some Labour MPs on the front page of the Mail by pointing out that they used an address for voting that was merely rental and therefore not a proper home.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,417

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    The two things are, sadly, inextricably intertwined. But that's an inevitable consequence of the way the PO management has behaved, rather than the fault of the enquiry itself.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    edited April 24
    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Nigelb said:

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    You OK ?
    Sorry, couldn't resist.. Hospital is a little village

    My Mum didn't find that at all funny!


    Naughty!

    Is that Postman Pat's cat by the side of the sign? He's been looking everywhere for her.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    I think you have misunderstood. The point of the inquiry is to delay any police investigations for several years, then make the police investigations so broad and complex it is beyond the wit of your average DCI, and even if by miracles they assign it to a proper detective, the witnesses shall be too old to remember what happened accurately anyway. That way none of the establishment have to visit jail.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Smart51 said:

    Sunak is wrong on this one. He may start the flights. It won't stop the boats.

    Exactly. The poeple who are trafficked in small boats accross the channel are mostly misinformed, to a large extent by the traffickers themselves. Those who do make it to the UK on small boats won't ever of heard of the Rwanda scheme.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    You OK ?
    Sorry, couldn't resist.. Hospital is a little village

    My Mum didn't find that at all funny!


    I had a feeling you might be having a larf - but didn't say so just in case you torn an ACL or something.

    Glad to hear you're still in good form, and I'm enjoying the travelogue.
    Wonder if it was a mediaeval hospice, in this case for pilgrims? Spital/Spittal is a thing in British placenames.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145
    eristdoof said:

    Smart51 said:

    Sunak is wrong on this one. He may start the flights. It won't stop the boats.

    Exactly. The poeple who are trafficked in small boats accross the channel are mostly misinformed, to a large extent by the traffickers themselves. Those who do make it to the UK on small boats won't ever of heard of the Rwanda scheme.
    The government could pay GBeebies £400m to broadcast into countries facing civil wars.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    The last July GE was in 1945, the 5th. I suppose possible then, the 4th, before the holiday season really gets going but 1945 not a good omen for the Tories!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited April 24

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Of course a rented property is your home.
    Taz seems to have flipped into full swivel-eyed mode.

    By his definition there must be more than 25 million homeless in the UK.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.

    I had to look at the article to see what LTN means. Somehow Luton Airport didn't seem to make sense.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    edited April 24
    eristdoof said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tension-kings-heath-vandals-target-29028974

    Came across this (when checking the news re BR Birmingham New Street shutdown this morning). Anti-LTN thugs systematically stealing bollards and threatening the locals who complain - the locals like their LTN.

    I had to look at the article to see what LTN means. Somehow Luton Airport didn't seem to make sense.
    Amazing how LTNs have gone down the news agenda. A few months ago, they were the fifth horseman of the apocalypse on PB.

    Edit: come to think of it, it mentions bollards so @MattW might be interested.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    Nigelb said:

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    You OK ?
    Sorry, couldn't resist.. Hospital is a little village

    My Mum didn't find that at all funny!


    Ah. There's a small town in Limerick also called hospital, which has given rise to the phrase, "I went to a small town in Limerick."
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    sbjme19 said:

    The last July GE was in 1945, the 5th. I suppose possible then, the 4th, before the holiday season really gets going but 1945 not a good omen for the Tories!

    Tories would probably take a 1945 outcome (197 seats) right now.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,472
    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    So logically, if it is not their home, all renters are homeless?
    Big news.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    No I don't think that is quite right, DJ.

    The Inquiry is looking for structural problems and principles rather than individual culpability, although in seeking the former it has to examine the latter. The blame business will start if and when we see prosecutions.

    Those of us following the saga know perfectly well by now what the problem was. The PO is a thoroughly dysfunctional organisation in which incompetence and dishonesty had become the norm. This involved widespread illegal behaviour by numerous individuals, notably amongst the lawyers. One would hope to see prosecutions in due course.

    It also housed some of the most incompetent executives you could ever expect to meet in a business orgaisation, notably amongst its Board members. Some may be done in a court of law, but you would certainly expect them to be without gainful employment ever again. That at least would be something.

    The biggest lesson to be learned however concerns the relationship between the PO and Government. Agian, this was a dysfunctional one. We can expect to hear more of this in the next few weeks, but even now we know - if we never did before - that a passive and incurious Government that just leaves the businesses it owns to run themselves without proper scrutiny is asking for disaster.

    That at least is something.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    On the contrary there is a great deal to be learned - and much of the learning, especially for lawyers, both external and in-house - is already clear. It is to me anyway.

    This is, IMO, as bad for the legal profession as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was for the City.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    So logically, if it is not their home, all renters are homeless?
    Big news.
    The stupidity of Taz's stance has brightened up my morning.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    sbjme19 said:

    The last July GE was in 1945, the 5th. I suppose possible then, the 4th, before the holiday season really gets going but 1945 not a good omen for the Tories!

    Tories would probably take a 1945 outcome (197 seats) right now.
    And LAB would get around 375 seats on that basis which Keir would be very pleased with 👍
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,963
    DavidL said:

    As the numbers go down the cost per refugee exported goes up to quite silly numbers. At the same time the deterrent effect is diminished because only a very small percentage of those who arrived yesterday, for example, will ever be sent and refugees may well feel it is worth the risk. It is noteworthy that when Chancellor Sunak himself resisted this policy on the basis of cost.

    For this nonsense we have broken international law and frankly made ourselves look ridiculous. A very high percentage, I believe currently around 80%, of those arriving qualify for refugee status. Describing these people as "illegal refugees" contradicts the entire ethos of asylum. These people are fleeing persecution and are looking for a safe place to stay. That is what asylum is about. Moaning about people smugglers completely misses the point. This is how refugees have moved about from time immemorial.

    I have previously expressed reservations about the viability of asylum in a world full of hell holes where international movement is so easy. I think we should be clear that such refugees are only welcome in the UK if we choose to take them and this is no longer a question of rights. But, whatever your views on asylum, this is not the answer.

    Morning! Forget about the threat (stop laughing at the back) from the SNP. This is about Right and Wrong. The Tories have just passed the Acquitted People are Guilty Act, where the courts and the law can be overturned by idiot politicians hawking for the votes of morons.

    You cannot vote for them, surely?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898

    eristdoof said:

    Smart51 said:

    Sunak is wrong on this one. He may start the flights. It won't stop the boats.

    Exactly. The poeple who are trafficked in small boats accross the channel are mostly misinformed, to a large extent by the traffickers themselves. Those who do make it to the UK on small boats won't ever of heard of the Rwanda scheme.
    The government could pay GBeebies £400m to broadcast into countries facing civil wars.
    Yes I imagine watching that would put most people off coming here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    As the numbers go down the cost per refugee exported goes up to quite silly numbers. At the same time the deterrent effect is diminished because only a very small percentage of those who arrived yesterday, for example, will ever be sent and refugees may well feel it is worth the risk. It is noteworthy that when Chancellor Sunak himself resisted this policy on the basis of cost.

    For this nonsense we have broken international law and frankly made ourselves look ridiculous. A very high percentage, I believe currently around 80%, of those arriving qualify for refugee status. Describing these people as "illegal refugees" contradicts the entire ethos of asylum. These people are fleeing persecution and are looking for a safe place to stay. That is what asylum is about. Moaning about people smugglers completely misses the point. This is how refugees have moved about from time immemorial.

    I have previously expressed reservations about the viability of asylum in a world full of hell holes where international movement is so easy. I think we should be clear that such refugees are only welcome in the UK if we choose to take them and this is no longer a question of rights. But, whatever your views on asylum, this is not the answer.

    Morning! Forget about the threat (stop laughing at the back) from the SNP. This is about Right and Wrong. The Tories have just passed the Acquitted People are Guilty Act, where the courts and the law can be overturned by idiot politicians hawking for the votes of morons.

    You cannot vote for them, surely?
    As Shere Khan noted in the great philosophical film Jungle Book, they are trying my patience.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    a
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    On the contrary there is a great deal to be learned - and much of the learning, especially for lawyers, both external and in-house - is already clear. It is to me anyway.

    This is, IMO, as bad for the legal profession as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was for the City.
    There is room for blame for lots of individuals. And for processes, organisations and laws.

    Some are trying to adopt the aviation "no blame" culture as a way of avoiding all responsibility. They should look again. Plenty of people in aviation have been convicted in court over things they did by/with/from/to/for/at/near planes. Just Culture doesn't mean "Shrug your shoulders - shame about 400 people. Lessons Will Be Learned. Where's my knighthood?"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,614
    Good morning

    On topic - only time will tell but everyone should be united in stopping the boats

    And RIP Frank Field
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586
    Ofcom has released this regarding impartiality and the next election

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2024/broadcasters-put-on-notice-to-maintain-due-impartiality-ahead-of-general-election

    Alastair Meeks thinks (and I agree) that this will allow Nigel Farage to keep his nightly show on GB News going

    https://bsky.app/profile/alastairmeeks.bsky.social/post/3kqueagi3we2c

    Which means he won’t be returning to lead the party and will be able to do a lot more harm to the Tory party there than to Labour.

    Personally I’m going to be looking at the type of result @Peter_the_Punter is thinking about with the Tory party getting few seats
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    edited April 24
    Jeffrey Donaldson will be in court today, so there is more detail about the charges he will be facing.
    He is facing one charge of rape and a number of other sexual offences of an historical nature.

    In addition to a charge of rape, Jeffrey Donaldson faces nine charges of indecent assault against a female and one of gross indecency against a child.

    The offences are alleged to have taken place over a 21-year period between January 1985 and December 2006.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0424/1445282-jeffrey-donaldson-court/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    It seems fairly clear that she was a victim of bullying and intimidation by Vennells. That doesn't absolve her of responsibility for her actions (or lack of action), but it does seem to explain them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,145
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    She was clearly under a lot of pressure to do what her seniors wanted, and struggled to reconcile the right thing with doing what was needed to keep her job. It’s not an enviable position, and most of us would be pushed some way down that line, but it’s fair to say that her point of no return didn’t come early enough and the haziness of her recollections was thoroughly unconvincing. That she couldn’t recall whether or not she’s had a public shouting match with the CEO in the Costa Coffee in Old Street is simply not credible; it’s something anyone could be quite certain did, or didn’t, happen, however long ago.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,963
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    As the numbers go down the cost per refugee exported goes up to quite silly numbers. At the same time the deterrent effect is diminished because only a very small percentage of those who arrived yesterday, for example, will ever be sent and refugees may well feel it is worth the risk. It is noteworthy that when Chancellor Sunak himself resisted this policy on the basis of cost.

    For this nonsense we have broken international law and frankly made ourselves look ridiculous. A very high percentage, I believe currently around 80%, of those arriving qualify for refugee status. Describing these people as "illegal refugees" contradicts the entire ethos of asylum. These people are fleeing persecution and are looking for a safe place to stay. That is what asylum is about. Moaning about people smugglers completely misses the point. This is how refugees have moved about from time immemorial.

    I have previously expressed reservations about the viability of asylum in a world full of hell holes where international movement is so easy. I think we should be clear that such refugees are only welcome in the UK if we choose to take them and this is no longer a question of rights. But, whatever your views on asylum, this is not the answer.

    Morning! Forget about the threat (stop laughing at the back) from the SNP. This is about Right and Wrong. The Tories have just passed the Acquitted People are Guilty Act, where the courts and the law can be overturned by idiot politicians hawking for the votes of morons.

    You cannot vote for them, surely?
    As Shere Khan noted in the great philosophical film Jungle Book, they are trying my patience.
    They have declared your entire profession and the rule of law to be against the will of the people. Why bother having trials when parliament can simply legislate to declare the innocent guilty or vice versa.

    Come on, you can’t vote for that. Surely.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,449

    Good morning

    On topic - only time will tell but everyone should be united in stopping the boats

    And RIP Frank Field

    And that's the other disgusting thing about this scheme.

    All this government time, money and energy, all limited resources, pumped into a scheme that is so unlikely to stop the boats.

    Conservatives used to understand that sort of thing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    I don't think she was outmanoeuvred. Her goals were to preside over an increase in profit, protect herself and be a "team player". Like all Proper Generalist Managers, not Getting Bogged Down In The Details is how she was trained.

    Offensively and aggressively learning what the organisation was doing would have meant violently pushing knowledge onto people. Savagely ruining their ability to deny knowledge of what their own organisation was doing.

    Why do you expect a senior executive to behave in a such a nasty, thuggish manner?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,145

    sbjme19 said:

    The last July GE was in 1945, the 5th. I suppose possible then, the 4th, before the holiday season really gets going but 1945 not a good omen for the Tories!

    Tories would probably take a 1945 outcome (197 seats) right now.
    And LAB would get around 375 seats on that basis which Keir would be very pleased with 👍
    There were no significant minor party votes in those days, which makes the situation not directly comparable.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    That's not entirely true, David.

    I've worked for poisonous organisations and noted that some did stand their ground, or leave when the pressures became intolerable. The PO however seems to have cornered the market in weak and duplicitous individuals however.

    Maybe it had been going on for so long, nobody cared or noticed any more.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    No I don't think that is quite right, DJ.

    The Inquiry is looking for structural problems and principles rather than individual culpability, although in seeking the former it has to examine the latter. The blame business will start if and when we see prosecutions.

    Those of us following the saga know perfectly well by now what the problem was. The PO is a thoroughly dysfunctional organisation in which incompetence and dishonesty had become the norm. This involved widespread illegal behaviour by numerous individuals, notably amongst the lawyers. One would hope to see prosecutions in due course.

    It also housed some of the most incompetent executives you could ever expect to meet in a business orgaisation, notably amongst its Board members. Some may be done in a court of law, but you would certainly expect them to be without gainful employment ever again. That at least would be something.

    The biggest lesson to be learned however concerns the relationship between the PO and Government. Agian, this was a dysfunctional one. We can expect to hear more of this in the next few weeks, but even now we know - if we never did before - that a passive and incurious Government that just leaves the businesses it owns to run themselves without proper scrutiny is asking for disaster.

    That at least is something.
    The other biggest lesson is for the legal profession. I have said it before but will say it again. This is as bad for lawyers as the GFC was for bankers. There are so many law firms and different types of lawyers caught up in this that it is simply not possible to say that these were just a few rogue lawyers. How lawyers operate is not usually made public and what has been shown is not at all pretty.

    I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head about what the evidence is showing, what this is telling us about how lawyers need to approach their role and what needs to change. But I have a lot of work on - ironically I am currently running an independent investigation & having to deliver bad news, there is this to watch, the sun is out & there is gardening to be done.

    So I need to get my thoughts into some sort of coherent order first.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    edited April 24
    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    I'd give you a Like, DA, but from my experience I should say few are buying this load of boloney.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Good morning

    On topic - only time will tell but everyone should be united in stopping the boats

    And RIP Frank Field

    And that's the other disgusting thing about this scheme.

    All this government time, money and energy, all limited resources, pumped into a scheme that is so unlikely to stop the boats.

    Conservatives used to understand that sort of thing.
    All it needs is some lashups of surplus military kit and it'd be a Groundnut Scheme de nos jours. But maybe those clapped out old airliners/refuelling tankers qualify?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Good morning

    On topic - only time will tell but everyone should be united in stopping the boats

    And RIP Frank Field

    The thing is that the Rwanda plan is based on the idea that the migration situation is about pull factors. So it is designed to make the destination less attractive therefore to decrease the strength of the pull. The trouble is that in many respects it is more likely to be push factors which the government policy will have no impact on whatsoever. In fact in a piece of strategic genius the government has cut the budget that might conceivably help in respect of push factors. Also if we think the boats are bad now how bad will they be when a sizeably larger chunk of the planet is a parched uninhabitable wilderness?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    On the contrary there is a great deal to be learned - and much of the learning, especially for lawyers, both external and in-house - is already clear. It is to me anyway.

    This is, IMO, as bad for the legal profession as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was for the City.
    Again, it comes back to culture. It appears that lawyers need to be reminded of their professional duties and standards. If lawyers had done their jobs properly at every stage this would not have happened. Justice is not courts, however impartial. Justice is a legal system composed of individuals who have professional and moral duties to do the right thing. This does not stop them representing one side or the other, that is essential for the system, but it does require them to be careful, impartial and as objective as they can be.

    How do we do this? One of the failures of the inquiries into banking standards following the GFC was how so much illegal and immoral behaviour was swept under the carpet and personal responsibility was not enforced. We need to avoid this error. This involves prosecutions and disbarments for those who failed. Not because this makes it right or out of some form of vengeance, but because it is important to change the culture of those in such positions. They have to realise that they are personally accountable for their actions. It is long past time the prosecutions started and the Law Society really needs to look at itself as well. We need to change the way inhouse lawyers think (not just them in fairness but that seems to be the main problem here).
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    IanB2 said:

    sbjme19 said:

    The last July GE was in 1945, the 5th. I suppose possible then, the 4th, before the holiday season really gets going but 1945 not a good omen for the Tories!

    Tories would probably take a 1945 outcome (197 seats) right now.
    And LAB would get around 375 seats on that basis which Keir would be very pleased with 👍
    There were no significant minor party votes in those days, which makes the situation not directly comparable.
    Indeed. LAB got 400 seats in 1945 whereas LIB and other parties got next to nothing. And around 12 CON seats were in NI.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,861
    The Rwanda Act being now in law is relevant to calculating the date of the election.

    If you assume that in fact it cannot work with regard to stopping the boats, then the GE has to be held at a point before that becomes obvious, and where the government still has a plausible (to populist voters) account of the way it's all going to work very soon unless you let Labour wreck the wonderful plan.

    Which, probably, means sooner rather than later, depending on the timescale of legal challenges, if they get that far. July?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    That's not entirely true, David.

    I've worked for poisonous organisations and noted that some did stand their ground, or leave when the pressures became intolerable. The PO however seems to have cornered the market in weak and duplicitous individuals however.

    Maybe it had been going on for so long, nobody cared or noticed any more.
    There are exceptions, it is not a universal rule, but it is difficult to stand against the tide unless regulators and the ethos of the profession give you support. That is what I am asking for.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    I'm surprised the Tories have limited themselves to declaring Rwanda safe by edict. Why not declare Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. safe?

    In fact why not declare every country in the world safe then we can reject all asylum seekers without breaking any international obligations.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    edited April 24

    Jeffrey Donaldson will be in court today, so there is more detail about the charges he will be facing.

    He is facing one charge of rape and a number of other sexual offences of an historical nature.

    In addition to a charge of rape, Jeffrey Donaldson faces nine charges of indecent assault against a female and one of gross indecency against a child.

    The offences are alleged to have taken place over a 21-year period between January 1985 and December 2006.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0424/1445282-jeffrey-donaldson-court/
    Afaik despite the seriousness of the charges, the NI media aren’t herding outside the Donaldson family home and the PSNI did not erect a blue tent at same. They obviously do things differently over there.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,417
    eristdoof said:

    Smart51 said:

    Sunak is wrong on this one. He may start the flights. It won't stop the boats.

    Exactly. The poeple who are trafficked in small boats accross the channel are mostly misinformed, to a large extent by the traffickers themselves. Those who do make it to the UK on small boats won't ever of heard of the Rwanda scheme.
    The traffickers probably do not even mention the risk of death by drowning.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766

    I'm surprised the Tories have limited themselves to declaring Rwanda safe by edict. Why not declare Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. safe?

    In fact why not declare every country in the world safe then we can reject all asylum seekers without breaking any international obligations.

    Most of those countries don't accept deportees so they can't be repatriated even if it were legal. Hence the need for Rwanda.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    edited April 24
    Dura_Ace said:

    I'm surprised the Tories have limited themselves to declaring Rwanda safe by edict. Why not declare Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. safe?

    In fact why not declare every country in the world safe then we can reject all asylum seekers without breaking any international obligations.

    Most of those countries don't accept deportees so they can't be repatriated even if it were legal. Hence the need for Rwanda.
    Oh come on, DA. We could drop them by airplane.

    Give them a parachute of course. We're not heartless.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Jeffrey Donaldson will be in court today, so there is more detail about the charges he will be facing.

    He is facing one charge of rape and a number of other sexual offences of an historical nature.

    In addition to a charge of rape, Jeffrey Donaldson faces nine charges of indecent assault against a female and one of gross indecency against a child.

    The offences are alleged to have taken place over a 21-year period between January 1985 and December 2006.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0424/1445282-jeffrey-donaldson-court/
    Afaik despite the seriousness of the charges, the NI media aren’t herding outside the Donaldson family home and the PSNI did not erect a blue tent at same. They obviously do things differently over there.
    Some media outlets have named the co-defendent woman whilst others seem determined not to .
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,669

    I'm surprised the Tories have limited themselves to declaring Rwanda safe by edict. Why not declare Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. safe?

    In fact why not declare every country in the world safe then we can reject all asylum seekers without breaking any international obligations.

    Also, flights to Rwanda are just not expensive enough.

    I think we should declare the moon safe and send them there using all the spaceports we built.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/brochure-a-guide-to-the-uks-commercial-spaceports/a-guide-to-the-uks-commercial-spaceports#spaceports-detail
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    eristdoof said:

    Smart51 said:

    Sunak is wrong on this one. He may start the flights. It won't stop the boats.

    Exactly. The poeple who are trafficked in small boats accross the channel are mostly misinformed, to a large extent by the traffickers themselves. Those who do make it to the UK on small boats won't ever of heard of the Rwanda scheme.
    The traffickers probably do not even mention the risk of death by drowning.
    So true. As is Eristdoof's point.

    Cynically, from Labour's viewpoint it would be best for the flights to start unfettered by legal challenges. By late summer and probably into any election campaign continued high boat numbers will show what a pointless distraction the scheme has been.

    Conversely, the Tories must hope the courts delay any flights indefinitely so that they can run out the 'Enemies of the People!' line.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    The one time I was in that position in my career I did the right thing at some considerable personal risk. The challenge for the profession and those who regulate it is to make sure that as many of us do that as possible. And we need to recognise the real pressures inhouse lawyers face.

  • Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    No I don't think that is quite right, DJ.

    The Inquiry is looking for structural problems and principles rather than individual culpability, although in seeking the former it has to examine the latter. The blame business will start if and when we see prosecutions.

    Those of us following the saga know perfectly well by now what the problem was. The PO is a thoroughly dysfunctional organisation in which incompetence and dishonesty had become the norm. This involved widespread illegal behaviour by numerous individuals, notably amongst the lawyers. One would hope to see prosecutions in due course.

    It also housed some of the most incompetent executives you could ever expect to meet in a business orgaisation, notably amongst its Board members. Some may be done in a court of law, but you would certainly expect them to be without gainful employment ever again. That at least would be something.

    The biggest lesson to be learned however concerns the relationship between the PO and Government. Agian, this was a dysfunctional one. We can expect to hear more of this in the next few weeks, but even now we know - if we never did before - that a passive and incurious Government that just leaves the businesses it owns to run themselves without proper scrutiny is asking for disaster.

    That at least is something.
    The other biggest lesson is for the legal profession. I have said it before but will say it again. This is as bad for lawyers as the GFC was for bankers. There are so many law firms and different types of lawyers caught up in this that it is simply not possible to say that these were just a few rogue lawyers. How lawyers operate is not usually made public and what has been shown is not at all pretty.

    I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head about what the evidence is showing, what this is telling us about how lawyers need to approach their role and what needs to change. But I have a lot of work on - ironically I am currently running an independent investigation & having to deliver bad news, there is this to watch, the sun is out & there is gardening to be done.

    So I need to get my thoughts into some sort of coherent order first.
    Agreed. Richard Morehead - https://richardmoorhead.substack.com/ - has covered a lot of the issues that have become apparent.

    Back when I was involved in legal services stuff he was quite an influential person. I assume he still is.

    However, the law profession tends to be pretty good at sweeping stuff under the carpet, and the SRA has its own problems at the moment (Axiom, SSB, etc) so I fear they’ll learn nowt. But, if professionalism matters in law and if ethics is more than a county north east of London then the profession should spend a bit of time thinking about what went wrong here.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Dura_Ace said:

    I'm surprised the Tories have limited themselves to declaring Rwanda safe by edict. Why not declare Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. safe?

    In fact why not declare every country in the world safe then we can reject all asylum seekers without breaking any international obligations.

    Most of those countries don't accept deportees so they can't be repatriated even if it were legal. Hence the need for Rwanda.
    I wasn't being entirely serious. Although with this Conservative Party, you never know.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    That's not entirely true, David.

    I've worked for poisonous organisations and noted that some did stand their ground, or leave when the pressures became intolerable. The PO however seems to have cornered the market in weak and duplicitous individuals however.

    Maybe it had been going on for so long, nobody cared or noticed any more.
    There are exceptions, it is not a universal rule, but it is difficult to stand against the tide unless regulators and the ethos of the profession give you support. That is what I am asking for.
    Well, the legal profession has a great opportunity now to show where its priorities lie.

    We're watching, guys!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,789
    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    Its odd because we were told that the consequences of a Leave vote were to include mass unemployment together with mass emigration.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,593

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    The CoE and the PO are both self-serving institutions, so she was a good fit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    The modern cult of the Generalist Manager

    1) Increase the profits in the short term
    2) Avoid knowing anything dangerous
    3) Knowledge/skill is just another piece of property. To be bought and sold as required.
    4) Be a team player

    Personal Integrity would conflict with 4), 2) and probably 1)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,593

    Dura_Ace said:

    The purpose of the Rwanda nonsense isn't to get people to Rwanda or even deter more boat arrivals - it would be an obvious failure if those were its objectives.

    It's goal, at which it has been largely succesful, is to focus attention on the relatively small number irregular maritime arrivals and away from the several million completely legal arrivals that the tories have had to sanction in order to ameliorate the completely forseeable economic consequences of Brexit. Looked at on those terms, it is succeeding and will save the tories some seats.

    It's a cynical policy aimed to diguise previous catastrophic misjudgments, aimed at the elderly, racist and stupid. Those policies remain the singular political niche at which the tories excel.

    Its odd because we were told that the consequences of a Leave vote were to include mass unemployment together with mass emigration.
    After a vote, it is the winner's manifesto that is tested, not the loser's.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Yes, I think you are slightly unusual.
    The proportion of those willing to contradict a corporate consensus - even when it's blatantly wrong - is relatively small, in my experience.

    Possibly the only way effectively to address that is to inculcate stronger cultural norms in the professions ?
    That ought to be a matter of course in the training of lawyers, but clearly it isn't.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    Sorry Cyclefree, I have to pick you up on one thing.

    You believe this woman is genuinely Christian? Really?

    Now where is that bridge I was looking to sell.....?
    I called her a priest. Not a Christian. 😀
    "bridge I was looking to sell" - Pontifex Maximus, eh?

    Talking of priests, Julius Caesar held that job (Pontifex Maximus). It's hard to imagine him as an especially god fearing man.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    edited April 24

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    No I don't think that is quite right, DJ.

    The Inquiry is looking for structural problems and principles rather than individual culpability, although in seeking the former it has to examine the latter. The blame business will start if and when we see prosecutions.

    Those of us following the saga know perfectly well by now what the problem was. The PO is a thoroughly dysfunctional organisation in which incompetence and dishonesty had become the norm. This involved widespread illegal behaviour by numerous individuals, notably amongst the lawyers. One would hope to see prosecutions in due course.

    It also housed some of the most incompetent executives you could ever expect to meet in a business orgaisation, notably amongst its Board members. Some may be done in a court of law, but you would certainly expect them to be without gainful employment ever again. That at least would be something.

    The biggest lesson to be learned however concerns the relationship between the PO and Government. Agian, this was a dysfunctional one. We can expect to hear more of this in the next few weeks, but even now we know - if we never did before - that a passive and incurious Government that just leaves the businesses it owns to run themselves without proper scrutiny is asking for disaster.

    That at least is something.
    The other biggest lesson is for the legal profession. I have said it before but will say it again. This is as bad for lawyers as the GFC was for bankers. There are so many law firms and different types of lawyers caught up in this that it is simply not possible to say that these were just a few rogue lawyers. How lawyers operate is not usually made public and what has been shown is not at all pretty.

    I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head about what the evidence is showing, what this is telling us about how lawyers need to approach their role and what needs to change. But I have a lot of work on - ironically I am currently running an independent investigation & having to deliver bad news, there is this to watch, the sun is out & there is gardening to be done.

    So I need to get my thoughts into some sort of coherent order first.
    Agreed. Richard Morehead - https://richardmoorhead.substack.com/ - has covered a lot of the issues that have become apparent.

    Back when I was involved in legal services stuff he was quite an influential person. I assume he still is.

    However, the law profession tends to be pretty good at sweeping stuff under the carpet, and the SRA has its own problems at the moment (Axiom, SSB, etc) so I fear they’ll learn nowt. But, if professionalism matters in law and if ethics is more than a county north east of London then the profession should spend a bit of time thinking about what went wrong here.
    Spot on, Jim.

    On the evidence of the Inquiry interviews I have watched I should say the easiest prosecutions will be those involving the lawyers who palpably ignored disclosure rules when preparing prosecution cases. I think they can be banged up swiftly, by the busload. Others are trickier, but if there is a will....

    Btw, I am intigued by your Username. You are not perchance related to the former Surrey cricketer who once took 19 wickets in a Test Match against Australia?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,650

    sbjme19 said:

    The last July GE was in 1945, the 5th. I suppose possible then, the 4th, before the holiday season really gets going but 1945 not a good omen for the Tories!

    Tories would probably take a 1945 outcome (197 seats) right now.
    And LAB would get around 375 seats on that basis which Keir would be very pleased with 👍
    One of my betting steers for football is to look at backing the draw when both teams would be very happy with that. Maybe it can be applied to this coming GE on Oct 24th. In which case what's in the sweet spot is probably Labour majority of 50 to 75.

    (but I think it'll be bigger than that)
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Up to a point, Lord Copper.

    There's definitely a place for people (mostly young, mostly mobile) who need a home on a timescale of months to a couple of years. And the current tenancy model serves that fairly well.

    Trouble is that the same private rental sector is now having to provide people with homes where it's reasonable to want to stay for longer, and it does that very badly. A society where people who want to put down roots in a place but can't is a worse society.

    Probably the answer is that there are nowhere near enough homes, so the landlord-tenant power balance is out of whack. Just build more homes where people want to live and all that.
    You'll get no argument from me on that. Problem is NIMBYism is prevalent where they are needed and the solution is not barring so called no fault evictions.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    No I don't think that is quite right, DJ.

    The Inquiry is looking for structural problems and principles rather than individual culpability, although in seeking the former it has to examine the latter. The blame business will start if and when we see prosecutions.

    Those of us following the saga know perfectly well by now what the problem was. The PO is a thoroughly dysfunctional organisation in which incompetence and dishonesty had become the norm. This involved widespread illegal behaviour by numerous individuals, notably amongst the lawyers. One would hope to see prosecutions in due course.

    It also housed some of the most incompetent executives you could ever expect to meet in a business orgaisation, notably amongst its Board members. Some may be done in a court of law, but you would certainly expect them to be without gainful employment ever again. That at least would be something.

    The biggest lesson to be learned however concerns the relationship between the PO and Government. Agian, this was a dysfunctional one. We can expect to hear more of this in the next few weeks, but even now we know - if we never did before - that a passive and incurious Government that just leaves the businesses it owns to run themselves without proper scrutiny is asking for disaster.

    That at least is something.
    The other biggest lesson is for the legal profession. I have said it before but will say it again. This is as bad for lawyers as the GFC was for bankers. There are so many law firms and different types of lawyers caught up in this that it is simply not possible to say that these were just a few rogue lawyers. How lawyers operate is not usually made public and what has been shown is not at all pretty.

    I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head about what the evidence is showing, what this is telling us about how lawyers need to approach their role and what needs to change. But I have a lot of work on - ironically I am currently running an independent investigation & having to deliver bad news, there is this to watch, the sun is out & there is gardening to be done.

    So I need to get my thoughts into some sort of coherent order first.
    Agreed. Richard Morehead - https://richardmoorhead.substack.com/ - has covered a lot of the issues that have become apparent.

    Back when I was involved in legal services stuff he was quite an influential person. I assume he still is.

    However, the law profession tends to be pretty good at sweeping stuff under the carpet, and the SRA has its own problems at the moment (Axiom, SSB, etc) so I fear they’ll learn nowt. But, if professionalism matters in law and if ethics is more than a county north east of London then the profession should spend a bit of time thinking about what went wrong here.
    I've been reading a lot of his stuff. He is good.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,121
    On the topic:


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    I don’t understand the politics of the ECHR debate now. The only rationale for the Tories putting withdrawal in their manifesto would be if the flights were blocked. And if they’re blocked - after Sunak said they wouldn’t be blocked - there’s no point even printing a manifesto, because they’d be utterly annihilated whatever’s in it.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1783019583751737495
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,948
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    Culture is a weird thing. We are all social animals at heart and it is unusual for someone to have the moral strength not to behave as those around them are doing. I am not sure in this case the question even crossed her mind.
    Am I unusual then? I have not found this particularly hard though it is lonely and can be difficult. Though my job did put me in the privileged position of having to be the one asking difficult questions, which perhaps helped. But it is surely the essence of being a professional that you have to be able and willing to speak truth to power.

    You are certainly right that organisations can easily develop a sort of ethical blindness so that people within it do not even realise that what they are doing is wrong. But that is why professionals like lawyers need to have that professional conscience.

    It was telling that when counsel for the inquiry put the note to her in which Vennells wrote about Crichton putting her professional integrity above the interests of the firm, Crichton barely reacted or even agreed to it. It was almost as if she didn't realise that it was a compliment, even if Vennells didn't intend it as such.

    And what the hell does that say about Vennells, a priest, that she thought having personal integrity was a criticism?! And the CoE wanted to make her a Bishop?!?
    The fact Vennells wrote that is one of the most damning pieces of evidence in the inquiry so far imo.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    No I don't think that is quite right, DJ.

    The Inquiry is looking for structural problems and principles rather than individual culpability, although in seeking the former it has to examine the latter. The blame business will start if and when we see prosecutions.

    Those of us following the saga know perfectly well by now what the problem was. The PO is a thoroughly dysfunctional organisation in which incompetence and dishonesty had become the norm. This involved widespread illegal behaviour by numerous individuals, notably amongst the lawyers. One would hope to see prosecutions in due course.

    It also housed some of the most incompetent executives you could ever expect to meet in a business orgaisation, notably amongst its Board members. Some may be done in a court of law, but you would certainly expect them to be without gainful employment ever again. That at least would be something.

    The biggest lesson to be learned however concerns the relationship between the PO and Government. Agian, this was a dysfunctional one. We can expect to hear more of this in the next few weeks, but even now we know - if we never did before - that a passive and incurious Government that just leaves the businesses it owns to run themselves without proper scrutiny is asking for disaster.

    That at least is something.
    The other biggest lesson is for the legal profession. I have said it before but will say it again. This is as bad for lawyers as the GFC was for bankers. There are so many law firms and different types of lawyers caught up in this that it is simply not possible to say that these were just a few rogue lawyers. How lawyers operate is not usually made public and what has been shown is not at all pretty.

    I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head about what the evidence is showing, what this is telling us about how lawyers need to approach their role and what needs to change. But I have a lot of work on - ironically I am currently running an independent investigation & having to deliver bad news, there is this to watch, the sun is out & there is gardening to be done.

    So I need to get my thoughts into some sort of coherent order first.
    Agreed. Richard Morehead - https://richardmoorhead.substack.com/ - has covered a lot of the issues that have become apparent.

    Back when I was involved in legal services stuff he was quite an influential person. I assume he still is.

    However, the law profession tends to be pretty good at sweeping stuff under the carpet, and the SRA has its own problems at the moment (Axiom, SSB, etc) so I fear they’ll learn nowt. But, if professionalism matters in law and if ethics is more than a county north east of London then the profession should spend a bit of time thinking about what went wrong here.
    Spot on, Jim.

    On the evidence of the Inquiry interviews I have watched I should say the easiest prosecutions will be those involving the lawyers who palpably ignored disclosure rules when preparing prosecution cases. I think they can be banged up swiftly, by the busload. Others are trickier, but if there is a will....

    Btw, I am intigued by your Username. You are not perchance related to the former Surrey cricketer who once took 19 wickets in a Test Match against Australia?
    I hope so. Conspiracy charges are not always the easiest to prosecute, mind. One of the key lawyers is in NZ.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    She is not the heroine she tries to present herself as. Overpromoted, weak and from the evidence her main concern was her personal reputation not the wider interests of justice. Like many others she barely bothered to educate herself on the PO's prosecutorial functions and obligations.

    The politics within the PO were poisonous and she was not very good at them so was outmanoeuvred. But had she been treated more gently by the Board I reckon she'd have continued and done what they wanted. Her explanations for what she actually wrote and her actions at the time were not really convincing.
    She was clearly under a lot of pressure to do what her seniors wanted, and struggled to reconcile the right thing with doing what was needed to keep her job. It’s not an enviable position, and most of us would be pushed some way down that line, but it’s fair to say that her point of no return didn’t come early enough and the haziness of her recollections was thoroughly unconvincing. That she couldn’t recall whether or not she’s had a public shouting match with the CEO in the Costa Coffee in Old Street is simply not credible; it’s something anyone could be quite certain did, or didn’t, happen, however long ago.
    Agreed. Her breaking point - when she went to get advice on a constructive dismissal claim - was, according to her, losing the HR bit of her role.
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/post-office-s-former-most-senior-lawyer-doesn-t-recall-meeting-on-convicted-pregnant-postmistress/vi-AA1nxpbb?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=366cf48b13b649c3ddff2276a50402eb&ei=9

    Amnesia is a terrible thing. Must be something in the water at the Post Office as so many of its senior employers have been affected.

    BTW - FIRST !!!!

    It isn't just amnesia, Taz. It's the entire way they present, which stands in stark contrast to the witnesses for the other side.

    Bates and Arbuthnot, for examle, were clear, concise, and strightforward in their answers. They were also perfectly fair and reasonable. The PO representatives have been, almost to a man and woman, evasive, vague, unhelpful and preoccupied solely, it would appear, with saving their own sorry arses.
    Yes but isn't this the problem with the inquiry? Rather than be a seeker of truth, it is looking for blame. And suppose the inquiry does find it is all Fred Smith's fault, what will we have learned to avoid similar scandals in future? Don't employ Fred Smith? Well, he's past retirement age anyway, so thanks for that. Don't make Ed Davey Prime Minister? Don't buy computer systems named after television programmes?
    On the contrary there is a great deal to be learned - and much of the learning, especially for lawyers, both external and in-house - is already clear. It is to me anyway.

    This is, IMO, as bad for the legal profession as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was for the City.
    Again, it comes back to culture. It appears that lawyers need to be reminded of their professional duties and standards. If lawyers had done their jobs properly at every stage this would not have happened. Justice is not courts, however impartial. Justice is a legal system composed of individuals who have professional and moral duties to do the right thing. This does not stop them representing one side or the other, that is essential for the system, but it does require them to be careful, impartial and as objective as they can be.

    How do we do this? One of the failures of the inquiries into banking standards following the GFC was how so much illegal and immoral behaviour was swept under the carpet and personal responsibility was not enforced. We need to avoid this error. This involves prosecutions and disbarments for those who failed. Not because this makes it right or out of some form of vengeance, but because it is important to change the culture of those in such positions. They have to realise that they are personally accountable for their actions. It is long past time the prosecutions started and the Law Society really needs to look at itself as well. We need to change the way inhouse lawyers think (not just them in fairness but that seems to be the main problem here).
    Agree wholeheartedly with this.

    The external lawyers too. It was an external law firm which wrote the astonishing advice about not disclosing relevant material and doing it in a way which would hide what they were doing.

    The Law Society and SRA are however chocolate teapots.

    And the Met (groan!) has announced it won't even start looking at the evidence until after the inquiry and oh there are lots of documents and it will all take too long and we need more money and blah blah. So they need a solid poker waved around their heads and told to get on with it now. They can be doing all the preparatory work right now instead of their usual bleating and uselessness.
    As a founder member of The Royal Society For The Protection Of The Reputation of Comestible Tableware... Please stop declaring useless things are like "chocolate teapots"

    If you have a chocolate teapot, you have chocolate. If you give one to an 8 year old, they will crow with delight and consume it.

    If you gave the Law Society to an 8 year old, they would probably cry.
    Equally (although I’m not going to search for the link) it’s been shown that a chocolate teapot would actually work successfully (once) - which is clearly one more time than the law society and SRA
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Of course a rented property is your home.
    Well property then.

    It is not their property, they do not own it, it is someone else's property. They merely enter a contract to live there for a set period of time and once that is up there should be a choice to renew or not for both parties.

    They cannot just make changes to it without the landlords permission.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,450

    I walked up the mountain and ended up in Hospital..

    Hope you are ok
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    ...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Frank Field RIP
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,027

    Taz said:

    FPT

    kamski said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Between the Rwanda bill and defense spending announcement I feel ever more certain that we are heading into a summer GE. Finally something Farage and I agree on.

    Borrowing more than expected and lower tax receipts in March, yet promises of more spending.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/23/jeremy-hunt-tax-cuts-borrowing
    Promises of more spending when they have a 3% chance of being in power......
    Whereas, whilst they are in power backing away from the already watered down renters reform bill.
    No Fault eviction is nothing of the sort. It is the end of a contract.

    If the landlord does not want to renew why should they ?

    Renters are not being "kicked out of their homes", they are at the end of a contract. Why should they be entitled to remain in a property after that.
    because they are literally being "kicked out of their homes"?
    They aren't.

    It is not their home, they are renting it.

    The contract has ended. So be it. Or should the renter be compelled to remain if they want to leave ?
    Of course a rented property is your home.
    Taz seems to have flipped into full swivel-eyed mode.

    By his definition there must be more than 25 million homeless in the UK.
    No, I said home and meant property. Big deal. Point still stands.

    I am still correct about so-called no fault evictions. People who rent homes do not own them and once the contract ends then either party should be free not to renew rather than the landlord be compelled to.
This discussion has been closed.