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A new Street victory? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    SSI2 - I would be less disturbed if there were more "toss-up" races for the US Senate.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    Coincidentally, since Burnham became Mayor.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    edited April 17
    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    Coincidentally, since Burnham became Mayor.
    It predates Burnham by a few years. I worried when Burnham became mayor because things were already going well. The unelectes Tony Lloyd was doing a great job.
    But I can't fault Burnham.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited April 17

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    I agree with a lot of that except a good plot is not absolutely essential for a great novel. Austen's Emma for example doesn't really have much of a plot but is a masterpiece. Having said that, Austen could get away with it, most authors can't.
    Yes, Emma is exceptional. Though to read it is to be engaged in a well told story. It's just that the most thrilling thing that happens is bloke goes for haircut. Austen could, as in P and P, write a fabulous story well told which is also a masterpiece. Too many modernists go for the 'literary' novel stuff without going through the hard work of knowing how to tell a good story really well first. Like poets who don't write in form because they can't and despise the amazing craftsmen.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,870

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061

    I'm surprised by the details coming out about the proposed Ukraine funding bill from Mike Johnson. It looks like if it does go to a vote on Saturday as he promised that it will (a) pass, (b) pass the Senate, (c) be signed by Biden, and, (d) include everything that would have been sent since November if he hadn't wasted time.

    So, what's the catch? Why did he delay so long and why has he apparently stopped delaying?

    Because it's Trump's policy to do so.

    Now aid to Israel has become more time urgent, paralysing the House is more problematic. And the handful of MAGA nuts who want to unseat him means he likely needs Democratic votes.

    Nothing's clearcut, though.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
    You weren't sure which floor you were working on? Must have made getting to your desk each as challenge.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,870

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
    Different situation.

    Get a high status office block the lifts go out they are fixed within hours.

    Get a skyscraper full of less well off people the lifts break down they will take a week or two to fix. You have fun carrying shopping up 20 flights
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited April 17
    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,870
    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    I agree with a lot of that except a good plot is not absolutely essential for a great novel. Austen's Emma for example doesn't really have much of a plot but is a masterpiece. Having said that, Austen could get away with it, most authors can't.
    Yes, Emma is exceptional. Though to read it is to be engaged in a well told story. It's just that the most thrilling thing that happens is bloke goes for haircut. Austen could, as in P and P, write a fabulous story well told which is also a masterpiece. Too many modernists go for the 'literary' novel stuff without going through the hard work of knowing how to tell a good story really well first. Like poets who don't write in form because they can't and despise the amazing craftsmen.
    Absolutely with you on
    the freeform poets; there's a lot
    of utterly trashy prose masquerading
    as poetry by virtue
    of having odd
    line breaks.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
    You weren't sure which floor you were working on? Must have made getting to your desk each as challenge.
    I had to ask at the desk for a temporary pass every morning, and the company I was working for had offices on two floors, so I was sent to the wrong floor at least once.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
    On topic:

    Andy Street is sleeping with Michael Fabricant.

    We do not need Moor Street.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    Ha! You have a point.
    And while I bow to few in my exasperation with the BBC, it sticks in the craw even more to have all the machinery of the establishment stuck down in London. I do quite like having the BBC here. And it has certainly been a catalyst for other investment in the NW.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
    Different situation.

    Get a high status office block the lifts go out they are fixed within hours.

    Get a skyscraper full of less well off people the lifts break down they will take a week or two to fix. You have fun carrying shopping up 20 flights
    Yeah. My ex had a flat near the bottom of Arthur's Seat for a while. She was only six floors up, but it was too many.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
    To be fair it’s a childrens book, and has sold millions, so there is clearly something in it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,870

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
    Different situation.

    Get a high status office block the lifts go out they are fixed within hours.

    Get a skyscraper full of less well off people the lifts break down they will take a week or two to fix. You have fun carrying shopping up 20 flights
    Yeah. My ex had a flat near the bottom of Arthur's Seat for a while. She was only six floors up, but it was too many.
    Shrugs I am sure high rises are great if they are full of rich people with a penthouse suite for some millionaire.

    A high rise for the poor is very different is the point I was trying to make
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
    To be fair it’s a childrens book, and has sold millions, so there is clearly something in it.
    The writing didn't seem great to me. But not terrible either.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Well these are the former. Or at least, for people making their own decisions on where to live.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    As someone who has worked from the 17th (I think) floor of the Shard, I think they're quite a good option for an office.
    Except when there is a fire drill.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061

    Nigelb said:

    Motion to consider repealing Arizona's territorial era abortion law FAILS in a vote of 30-30.
    https://twitter.com/Garrett_Archer/status/1780662412255072451

    Blue Wave coming to Arizona in November.
    They're pretty stoked about it.

    Extreme anti-abortion Republicans cheer, clap, and wink at the gallery after blocking another Democratic attempt to repeal the 1864 total abortion ban.
    https://twitter.com/AZSenateDems/status/1780669573970457062
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,870

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
    To be fair it’s a childrens book, and has sold millions, so there is clearly something in it.
    The writing didn't seem great to me. But not terrible either.
    Her writing was mediocre, her story telling on the other hand was superb.
    Also the issue with many films they concentrate on the special effects and forget you need a plot because having wow special effects (the writing part in the analogy) does not make it a good film if the plot lacks
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,603

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a bedsitter, worse (or another word that rhymes).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,354

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a penthouse, Trump’s it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
    To be fair it’s a childrens book, and has sold millions, so there is clearly something in it.
    The writing didn't seem great to me. But not terrible either.
    My sister put me on to the series about the time the 4th was due out. Readable, fun, short (for the first three). So obviously read the remainders, because the stories were good. It’s not the finest literature, but if you a good fun story, with increasing complexity as the series progresses, and the protagonists age, this hits the mark.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    City. Finally. Its been attack v defence since half time.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a bedsitter, worse (or another word that rhymes).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbC4yxjydUc
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
    To be fair it’s a childrens book, and has sold millions, so there is clearly something in it.
    The writing didn't seem great to me. But not terrible either.
    My sister put me on to the series about the time the 4th was due out. Readable, fun, short (for the first three). So obviously read the remainders, because the stories were good. It’s not the finest literature, but if you a good fun story, with increasing complexity as the series progresses, and the protagonists age, this hits the mark.
    Read the first few to my kids.
    As you say, the storytelling was pretty good, but you really get a sense of how clunky the writing is when you read the entire book out loud.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    MJW said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    Isn't that just standard mega successful author problems when editors can no longer get them to trim things down a bit?

    Many a great piece of work has been made better by someone else reining the creator in a little, they even acknowledge as much in countless acknowledgements, but once you are so big is it so easy to accept that same approach?
    The Ink Black Heart was a bit of a dud in the series because it bites off more than it can chew. There's a reason novels are yet to truly get to grips with the form of social media and online discourse, it's tedious to wade through (no offence to fellow PBers). Still quite compelling in its own way though and clearly there to make a point, which it makes fairly well.

    The newest one, The Running Grave, is also long but also may well be the best in the Strike series. It's like she needed to experiment a bit with the previous book then absolutely nails it in this one.
    People read books on their commute. Well I do anyway. And therefore carry the book about with me.

    Authors should remember this, and not produce works that weigh a tonne.

    There's a reason that I read War and Peace while WFH during lockdown.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    92-year-old with dementia told by DWP to repay £7k in disability allowance
    Rose Chitseko says her mother was too unwell to inform department of change in circumstance
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/injustice-92-year-old-with-dementia-told-by-dwp-to-repay-7k-in-disability-allowance
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,286

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
    In terms of topping out, Bridgewater Heights was in 2012 during the Cameron / TSE years, the 4th to hit 100m in GM.

    Currently 20 towers top 100m in GM and 12 more have started construction, though the 5th only went up in 2017 soon after I started working in the city, and 10 went up during my time working there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_Greater_Manchester?wprov=sfla1
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a penthouse, Trump’s it.
    Reading Penthouse, knock yourself out.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    I tried reading the first Harry Potter book when it came out, and didn't get beyond page 5. It was just unbelievably bad writing IMO.
    To be fair it’s a childrens book, and has sold millions, so there is clearly something in it.
    The writing didn't seem great to me. But not terrible either.
    My sister put me on to the series about the time the 4th was due out. Readable, fun, short (for the first three). So obviously read the remainders, because the stories were good. It’s not the finest literature, but if you a good fun story, with increasing complexity as the series progresses, and the protagonists age, this hits the mark.
    Read the first few to my kids.
    As you say, the storytelling was pretty good, but you really get a sense of how clunky the writing is when you read the entire book out loud.
    The first 3, particularly 1, was written as a children's book and uses childish and simple language. But JKR's audience grew up with the books and looked for more and more adult language and themes as the heroes also matured. I would agree that some of the last 3 would have benefited from more judicious editing but there are some truly brilliant payoffs that take you right back to the first book. "His mother's eyes" is very, very clever.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Pro_Rata said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
    In terms of topping out, Bridgewater Heights was in 2012 during the Cameron / TSE years, the 4th to hit 100m in GM.

    Currently 20 towers top 100m in GM and 12 more have started construction, though the 5th only went up in 2017 soon after I started working in the city, and 10 went up during my time working there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_Greater_Manchester?wprov=sfla1
    Manchester is bloody awful with all those skyscrapers.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    The robots are taking over. From other robots.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck7ly07gmx4o
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354

    MJW said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Nobody here has read "Life of Pi" then?

    "Richard Parker"?

    Am sad :(

    It was ok
    I thought it was massively overrated. The huge twist did not make up for a decidedly average novel
    What twist? The Tiger fucks off at the end?
    All I remember is a twist. It was so forgettable I have (honestly) forgotten what it was. I was bewildered by the praise

    I have felt same about several Booker Prize winners and I gave up reading acclaimed literary fiction as a result, it was all so shit

    The nadir was some massively hyped book by Richard Ford which consisted of no plot whatsoever. And, what's more, the writing wasn't even that good. Not beautiful, not funny, not clever, just mildly well shaped. The only thing I remember is a bit where the protagonist spilt a bit of rootbeer
    I'm a bit of a reverse snob when it comes to acclaimed things. Critics tend to get a bit abstract in their praise as they hype it, or talk about how 'important' a work is, rather than if it is a good story or has good characters, adn that makes me naturally suspicious. I've even seen reviews for things I like that make them sound crap by doing that. Then you get stuff which is just perfectly ordinary, but because of who wrote it it's presented like some masterpiece of originality.

    Of course, I don't mind many acclaimed things, some are indeed good, but if it is super insightful or culturally important or whatever, I prefer to figure that out for myself.
    It's an affliction particular to literary novels, for some reason

    What I mean is: if a movie is widely acclaimed and I go see it, generally I think: Yeah, wow, that's great, or I do at least see why people love it (even if I don't). Likewise good TV drama, or conceptual art

    However the criticism of literary fiction commonly seems weirdly divorced from real merit. What is loved by a coterie of critics is often not just overpraised but actively mediocre or awful. It is a SURPRISE when I read an acclaimed novel and it turns out to be worth the hype

    However this does NOT affect non fiction, history, biography. If a history book wins loads of awards, it's generally really good

    This tells me that literary fiction is doomed, probably. As happened to modernist classical music. Sir Harrison Birtwistle, FFS
    The ability to turn out a good sentence is overrated; and the ability to craft a good plot underrated. The latter is far harder and far more important to the enjoyment of a book. This is one of the reasons JK Rowling is a modern hero. Moderate writer, absolute genius storyteller.

    If you are a writer who can write entertainingly but can't plot, why bother with fiction at all? Find something you're interested in and write about that. Like Hugh McIlvanney or Bill Bryson.
    JK Rowling is extraordinary in one respect. She is a superb storyteller, and can do it at length; except when she doesn't.

    Huge chunks of vols 5-7 of H Potter are turgidly dull, while 1-4 are a very decent read. Her detective series is on the whole outstanding (and no bloke can fail to warm to Robin Ellacott, her young female tec), but get longer and longer, and she reaches one called The Ink Black Heart which is about a million pages long and completely unreadable.

    Dickens was the same. When he is bad he is both interminable and unreadable.
    Isn't that just standard mega successful author problems when editors can no longer get them to trim things down a bit?

    Many a great piece of work has been made better by someone else reining the creator in a little, they even acknowledge as much in countless acknowledgements, but once you are so big is it so easy to accept that same approach?
    The Ink Black Heart was a bit of a dud in the series because it bites off more than it can chew. There's a reason novels are yet to truly get to grips with the form of social media and online discourse, it's tedious to wade through (no offence to fellow PBers). Still quite compelling in its own way though and clearly there to make a point, which it makes fairly well.

    The newest one, The Running Grave, is also long but also may well be the best in the Strike series. It's like she needed to experiment a bit with the previous book then absolutely nails it in this one.
    People read books on their commute. Well I do anyway. And therefore carry the book about with me.

    Authors should remember this, and not produce works that weigh a tonne.

    There's a reason that I read War and Peace while WFH during lockdown.
    I read War and Peace on the execrable Cross-country service between Exeter and Edinburgh. It's a long journey.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a box. Living in a cardboard box.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a box. Living in a cardboard box.
    Luxury! Try living in a ditch - you'll soon be wishing you had a cardboard box!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    ohnotnow said:

    Can it be true? There are now 12 police officers in manchester looking at the Raynor tax issue?

    Madness. Utter madness.

    It's Rayner.

    R-A-Y-N-E-R.

    One of the great mysteries of PB is why, for all their degrees and PhDs, PBers still cannot spell the names of leading politicians.

    On a site dedicated to... politics.
    She works with Kier Starmer if I remember right?
    She thinks that Biros Johnstone and Sushi Rinak are smuc
    Shmucks for sure.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Utter madness to go as hard on Rayner as they have, given a) It's engendered a bit of sympathy for her b) It's now open season on anything dodgy a Tory may have done. And this seems several orders of magnitude worse. Every interview they'll be asked if are reporting this to the police.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
    Erections all over the place.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    "If the defendant chooses to testify, the People intend to inquire regarding the following"

    Read the full list of litigation prosecutors intend to confront Trump with, if given the green light by the judge. ..

    ...Context

    A Sandoval hearing establishes the permissible scope of cross-examination in order for the defendant to make an informed decision about whether to testify.

    The notice shows that, for Trump, the list of prior bad acts, is quite long.

    https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1780674978834256116
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Stop giving Donald Trump (more) ideas for raising (more) "campaign" funds!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,700
    Nigelb said:

    92-year-old with dementia told by DWP to repay £7k in disability allowance
    Rose Chitseko says her mother was too unwell to inform department of change in circumstance
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/injustice-92-year-old-with-dementia-told-by-dwp-to-repay-7k-in-disability-allowance

    The stories of DWP aggressive behaviour towards disabled and carers are flooding in.

    R4 Moneybox covered the Carers Allowance scandal last week.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    MJW said:

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Utter madness to go as hard on Rayner as they have, given a) It's engendered a bit of sympathy for her b) It's now open season on anything dodgy a Tory may have done. And this seems several orders of magnitude worse. Every interview they'll be asked if are reporting this to the police.
    It’s always open season on MPs doing dodgy things. The expenses scandal hit across the board. Plenty of labour figures have been having issues in the current parliament.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Who was it who said that Labour scandals are always about money, and Tory scandals are always about sex?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Motion to consider repealing Arizona's territorial era abortion law FAILS in a vote of 30-30.
    https://twitter.com/Garrett_Archer/status/1780662412255072451

    Blue Wave coming to Arizona in November.
    They're pretty stoked about it.

    Extreme anti-abortion Republicans cheer, clap, and wink at the gallery after blocking another Democratic attempt to repeal the 1864 total abortion ban.
    https://twitter.com/AZSenateDems/status/1780669573970457062
    They really want to lose Arizona .
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307

    Christ on a bike.

    Government officials have been accused of using “threatening and cruel” tactics towards unpaid carers by saying they could face even greater financial penalties if they appeal against “vindictive” benefit fines.

    This month a Guardian investigation revealed that thousands of people who look after disabled, frail or ill relatives have been forced to pay back huge sums after being chased by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) over “honest mistakes” that officials could have spotted years earlier.

    Dozens of unpaid carers have said they feel powerless to challenge the penalties, which often run into many thousands of pounds, even when the government is at fault.

    Now the Guardian has learned that the DWP is warning carers that their fine may increase if they appeal against a repayment order.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/dwp-accused-cruel-tactics-unpaid-carers-appealing-fines

    The DWP seem to have recruited their management from the Post Office.
    It's the next scandal.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited April 17

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s COLD

    Well I never, Leon is at home and I am not...mind you, it's quite cold here as well, but less so than at home
    Nice!

    Cold and French but also slightly Flemish-looking buildings, so I'm guessing somewhere in Picardy?
    Or maybe the Jura?
    I think it's Alsace. Those buildings look germanic.
    Mulhouse
    Top of the class, assuming no image search

    My dinner is a hearty bowl of pasta, lightly smoked ham, fermented cabbage, all covered in melted cheese.
    No image search. Clearly not Strasbourg, and too urban looking to be Colmar.
    Nice part of world. Beautiful wines including the best cooperatives in France, and you get to hop across the border where the Germans make their cheapest but nice plonk.
    Bravo. I don't know Alsace that well, apart from Strasbourg

    I am actually off to France myself, at the weekend. The frigging forecast there looks little better. COLD for April
    Like many border zones that have swapped between very different cultures, Alsace is well worth a visit. Some charming towns and villages, mostly untouched by war, excellent wines often overlooked by the UK market, and its distinctive cuisine which is fine provided your heart holds out. Thoroughly Frenchified now, if with a lingering Germanic accent, yet most of the adults' grandparents would have been German speaking.
    I have been to Strsbourg etc. And driven though a few times. I don't like the food much, because I really dislike German food, and you can detect the Teutonic influence (as you say)

    The military history is fascinating. You can still tell it is THE border. France/Germany. Lots of barracks and forts and the like. Soldiers training. Cemeteries
    Königsbourg is an astonishing sight, seen from a distance
    You're not referring to the Russian's WWII booty in Kaliningrad, are yo
    They effectively annexed the top half of what was East Prussia, depopulated it and filled it with Russians. The southern half was given to Poland, but at least they and Germany have a border treaty now with agreement on treatment of ancestors and families.

    It should really have been given back to Germany after the Cold War or, at worst, Poland with some recognition that some of the German diaspora could return there.
    There were some vague muttering about it. Bit that died when the new government of United Germany pledge their adherence to the post 1945 borders. They very much saw (and see themselves) as the Post War Germany. Prussia is not what they want or want to be.

    There’s nothing to go back to. The ethnic cleansing in the area removed all the landmarks, cultural and otherwise, with the people. A few old people could have gone back to find the farm gone. Under an apartment building…

    Plus, the locals are now Russians. Germany had no interest in acquiring a piece of land occupied by people who don’t want to be German.
    I think most of them were originally Ukrainians rather than Russians, bussed into the city against their will by Stalin.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354

    MJW said:

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Utter madness to go as hard on Rayner as they have, given a) It's engendered a bit of sympathy for her b) It's now open season on anything dodgy a Tory may have done. And this seems several orders of magnitude worse. Every interview they'll be asked if are reporting this to the police.
    It’s always open season on MPs doing dodgy things. The expenses scandal hit across the board. Plenty of labour figures have been having issues in the current parliament.
    One of the negative consequences for Labour of winning a monstrously large landslide - suppose 458 seats as per the current Electoral Calculus prediction - would be that none of the other parties would have many MPs who might do dodgy things. Since almost all MPs (70%) would be Labour MPs, it would follow that almost all dodgy MPs would be Labour MPs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    You might not like this suggestion, but I think the BBC completed the first phase of its move to Salford in 2012.
    As someone who has lived on the 20th floor of a skyscraper can I just say no one with any fucking choice would choose to do so.
    Lots of people appear to. They are very much in demand. This is not accommodation for people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
    Skyscrapers for the well off are....skyscrapers for the poor I very much doubt it
    Living in an apartment, good.

    Living in a flat, bad.
    Living in a box. Living in a cardboard box.
    Luxury! Try living in a ditch - you'll soon be wishing you had a cardboard box!
    Wut!? You 'ad ditch? Luuuuuuuuuxxxxxxuuuury!

    We would have killed for a ditch....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,700
    Cyclefree said:

    Christ on a bike.

    Government officials have been accused of using “threatening and cruel” tactics towards unpaid carers by saying they could face even greater financial penalties if they appeal against “vindictive” benefit fines.

    This month a Guardian investigation revealed that thousands of people who look after disabled, frail or ill relatives have been forced to pay back huge sums after being chased by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) over “honest mistakes” that officials could have spotted years earlier.

    Dozens of unpaid carers have said they feel powerless to challenge the penalties, which often run into many thousands of pounds, even when the government is at fault.

    Now the Guardian has learned that the DWP is warning carers that their fine may increase if they appeal against a repayment order.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/dwp-accused-cruel-tactics-unpaid-carers-appealing-fines

    The DWP seem to have recruited their management from the Post Office.
    It's the next scandal.
    Looking that way.

    No excuses about being a separate "company" this time. This is a direct branch of HM government and ministers are in charge.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
    Erections all over the place.
    You know me so well.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Cookie said:

    Look at the colour of that sky! Everything looks good against a blue sky. Even skyscraper cores.


    The pace of development in Manchester is absolutely astonishing.
    Thatcher years: no skyscrapers
    Major years: no skyscrapers
    Blair years: one skyscraper
    Brown years: no skyscrapers
    Cameron years: no skyscrapers (to be fair, there were some underway towards the end)
    May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak years: over 50 skyscrapers.

    Something has gone very right with the Manchester economy over the past ten years.

    I started working in Manchester 13 years ago, just saying.
    Erections all over the place.
    Pick-a-willy.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    MJW said:

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Utter madness to go as hard on Rayner as they have, given a) It's engendered a bit of sympathy for her b) It's now open season on anything dodgy a Tory may have done. And this seems several orders of magnitude worse. Every interview they'll be asked if are reporting this to the police.
    It’s always open season on MPs doing dodgy things. The expenses scandal hit across the board. Plenty of labour figures have been having issues in the current parliament.
    One of the negative consequences for Labour of winning a monstrously large landslide - suppose 458 seats as per the current Electoral Calculus prediction - would be that none of the other parties would have many MPs who might do dodgy things. Since almost all MPs (70%) would be Labour MPs, it would follow that almost all dodgy MPs would be Labour MPs.
    Plus there may be a few MPs that no one really thought would get elected, so maybe weren’t selected that carefully…
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214
    Cyclefree said:

    Christ on a bike.

    Government officials have been accused of using “threatening and cruel” tactics towards unpaid carers by saying they could face even greater financial penalties if they appeal against “vindictive” benefit fines.

    This month a Guardian investigation revealed that thousands of people who look after disabled, frail or ill relatives have been forced to pay back huge sums after being chased by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) over “honest mistakes” that officials could have spotted years earlier.

    Dozens of unpaid carers have said they feel powerless to challenge the penalties, which often run into many thousands of pounds, even when the government is at fault.

    Now the Guardian has learned that the DWP is warning carers that their fine may increase if they appeal against a repayment order.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/dwp-accused-cruel-tactics-unpaid-carers-appealing-fines

    The DWP seem to have recruited their management from the Post Office.
    It's the next scandal.
    It's a next scandal, sure.

    Where it is in the queue is another matter.

    (One of the arguments for having an election sooner rather than later, heck for having had it already, is quite how many buckets of effluent are wobbling around high up in the British State.)
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 225

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Who was it who said that Labour scandals are always about money, and Tory scandals are always about sex?
    It was some time in the 1970's, and in the version I was told continued with "..... and the Liberals are always both".
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Taking De Bruyne and Haaland off in extra time...
    Pep v Ancellotti.
    Remember. Only one genius got Everton to tenth.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    Cyclefree said:

    Christ on a bike.

    Government officials have been accused of using “threatening and cruel” tactics towards unpaid carers by saying they could face even greater financial penalties if they appeal against “vindictive” benefit fines.

    This month a Guardian investigation revealed that thousands of people who look after disabled, frail or ill relatives have been forced to pay back huge sums after being chased by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) over “honest mistakes” that officials could have spotted years earlier.

    Dozens of unpaid carers have said they feel powerless to challenge the penalties, which often run into many thousands of pounds, even when the government is at fault.

    Now the Guardian has learned that the DWP is warning carers that their fine may increase if they appeal against a repayment order.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/dwp-accused-cruel-tactics-unpaid-carers-appealing-fines

    The DWP seem to have recruited their management from the Post Office.
    It's the next scandal.
    It's a next scandal, sure.

    Where it is in the queue is another matter.

    (One of the arguments for having an election sooner rather than later, heck for having had it already, is quite how many buckets of effluent are wobbling around high up in the British State.)
    I thought the brutality of the benefits system was well known - it's been a thing since the 1960s, at least.

    I doubt it was ever gentle and pleasant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    This is utter shit from Speaker Johnson.
    The votes have always been there, and Congress has been doing sweet FA i the meantime.

    Tapper: Why didn't you do this months ago? I mean, Ukraine is desperate for aid?

    Johnson: Well, it takes a long time to socialize and build consensus when you have the smallest majority in us history. Also, we have had other big lifts in this Congress

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1780698750702494040
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728

    MJW said:

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Utter madness to go as hard on Rayner as they have, given a) It's engendered a bit of sympathy for her b) It's now open season on anything dodgy a Tory may have done. And this seems several orders of magnitude worse. Every interview they'll be asked if are reporting this to the police.
    It’s always open season on MPs doing dodgy things. The expenses scandal hit across the board. Plenty of labour figures have been having issues in the current parliament.
    True - but this will now be followed up differently than it might have been and run harder. When it's a backbencher it can be relatively easy to disown a bad egg. Or ignore and dismiss a story that's less spectacular than this one and wait for it to go away.

    As it is, even Tory MPs with much less marmalade dropping antics will mean the party is asked why it didn't report matters to the police, or take action themselves, when they appear to be only too keen to try and shop or frame political opponents.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    Cyclefree said:

    Christ on a bike.

    Government officials have been accused of using “threatening and cruel” tactics towards unpaid carers by saying they could face even greater financial penalties if they appeal against “vindictive” benefit fines.

    This month a Guardian investigation revealed that thousands of people who look after disabled, frail or ill relatives have been forced to pay back huge sums after being chased by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) over “honest mistakes” that officials could have spotted years earlier.

    Dozens of unpaid carers have said they feel powerless to challenge the penalties, which often run into many thousands of pounds, even when the government is at fault.

    Now the Guardian has learned that the DWP is warning carers that their fine may increase if they appeal against a repayment order.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/17/dwp-accused-cruel-tactics-unpaid-carers-appealing-fines

    The DWP seem to have recruited their management from the Post Office.
    It's the next scandal.
    It's a next scandal, sure.

    Where it is in the queue is another matter.

    (One of the arguments for having an election sooner rather than later, heck for having had it already, is quite how many buckets of effluent are wobbling around high up in the British State.)
    I thought the brutality of the benefits system was well known - it's been a thing since the 1960s, at least.

    I doubt it was ever gentle and pleasant.
    True, but it's also a bit Face Eating Leopards; the benefits system is meant to be cruel to bad people. Not nice people.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Awful penalties. City surely going out
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798

    Awful penalties. City surely going out

    And they've gone. Bad night for the EPL.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Grim night in Europe for the English clubs. Bonus place in the Champions League looks unlikely now.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    dixiedean said:

    Taking De Bruyne and Haaland off in extra time...
    Pep v Ancellotti.
    Remember. Only one genius got Everton to tenth.

    Told you.
    Colossal achievement again.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,603
    Truss plugging her book as only she knows how:

    https://x.com/mollyjongfast/status/1780215571327451265
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    DavidL said:

    Awful penalties. City surely going out

    And they've gone. Bad night for the EPL.
    I hate penalties as a way to decide a match. They should take one player off each team every three minutes in extra time instead, with a golden goal.

    But…

    What was Silva’s spot kick? He literally just gently chipped it into the goalie’s mitts, as if you were giving your mate the ball back for a throw-in in a park game.

    Bizarre.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    DavidL said:

    Awful penalties. City surely going out

    And they've gone. Bad night for the EPL.
    I hate penalties as a way to decide a match. They should take one player off each team every three minutes in extra time instead, with a golden goal.

    But…

    What was Silva’s spot kick? He literally just gently chipped it into the goalie’s mitts, as if you were giving your mate the ball back for a throw-in in a park game.

    Bizarre.
    Looks great if the keeper dives, not so much if it turns out like this.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814
    isam said:

    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    TSE mentioned it at 9.45pm:

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4750838/#Comment_4750838
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    TSE mentioned it at 9.45pm:

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4750838/#Comment_4750838
    I mean how has this MPs behaviour not been made much of before? He was at it in 2014, and I’ve never heard it mentioned on here
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    edited April 17
    isam said:

    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade.

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    To reference another poster - add it to the queue.

    Compared to the odd billion here and there in fraud, the odd million or two in donations-for-honours. Really? A few £k. Barely worth the ink costs to run the story.

    Unlike Angela Rayner's council house, obviously. Which is a major matter of state.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    I said earlier today that Switzerland was the richest country in the world per head in 1990, but it looks like it probably held that position from 1960 (or even earlier) to around 1995 or 2000.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    TRUSS
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ohnotnow said:

    isam said:

    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade.

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    To reference another poster - add it to the queue.

    Compared to the odd billion here and there in fraud, the odd million or two in donations-for-honours. Really? A few £k. Barely worth the ink costs to run the story.

    Unlike Angela Rayner's council house, obviously. Which is a major matter of state.
    An interesting series of stories involving Mark Menzies that have barely been mentioned on here is my point.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Off topic: Congratulations to Ruby Reynolds and her father Justin Reynolds on their find. It made the WaPo today (along with the story of the wandering elephant in Montana).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,865
    edited April 17
    ohnotnow said:

    isam said:

    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade.

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    To reference another poster - add it to the queue.

    Compared to the odd billion here and there in fraud, the odd million or two in donations-for-honours. Really? A few £k. Barely worth the ink costs to run the story.

    Unlike Angela Rayner's council house, obviously. Which is a major matter of state.
    It will be interesting to see how many newspapers pick up the Menzies story in the morning, once they have read The Times, and whether they give it more or less prominence than Raynergate.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited April 17
    Mark Menzies has relinquished the Tory whip. Takes them down to 346 I think.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Who was it who said that Labour scandals are always about money, and Tory scandals are always about sex?
    It was some time in the 1970's, and in the version I was told continued with "..... and the Liberals are always both".
    Or involving dogs. Talking of which,

    Three years later, Menzies was interviewed by police over bizarre accusations that he had deliberately got an acquaintance’s dog drunk and, when challenged over his actions, started a fight with the friend. The dog reportedly required emergency veterinary treatment for “intoxication” and “poisoning”.

    Menzies told the press at the time that the allegations were “false and malicious” and police had dismissed the claims. A source close to the MP denied that Menzies had any involvement in the dog drinking alcohol. They claimed the dog had drunk alcohol that had been placed on the grass when the friend fell asleep, and that the friend had given alcohol to the dog on previous occasions.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    One of Dave's A Listers, natch. Maybe that programme was a mistake.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Who was it who said that Labour scandals are always about money, and Tory scandals are always about sex?
    It was some time in the 1970's, and in the version I was told continued with "..... and the Liberals are always both".
    Or involving dogs. Talking of which,

    Three years later, Menzies was interviewed by police over bizarre accusations that he had deliberately got an acquaintance’s dog drunk and, when challenged over his actions, started a fight with the friend. The dog reportedly required emergency veterinary treatment for “intoxication” and “poisoning”.

    Menzies told the press at the time that the allegations were “false and malicious” and police had dismissed the claims. A source close to the MP denied that Menzies had any involvement in the dog drinking alcohol. They claimed the dog had drunk alcohol that had been placed on the grass when the friend fell asleep, and that the friend had given alcohol to the dog on previous occasions.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    One of Dave's A Listers, natch. Maybe that programme was a mistake.
    One hopes that Dilyn is NOT at risk?

    Though he DID survive those notorious Downing Street boozefests. (More than BoJo can say.)
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited April 17

    ohnotnow said:

    isam said:

    What an extraordinary story. How has this never been mentioned on here? It’s been going on for a decade.

    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    To reference another poster - add it to the queue.

    Compared to the odd billion here and there in fraud, the odd million or two in donations-for-honours. Really? A few £k. Barely worth the ink costs to run the story.

    Unlike Angela Rayner's council house, obviously. Which is a major matter of state.
    It will be interesting to see how many newspapers pick up the Menzies story in the morning, once they have read The Times, and whether they give it more or less prominence than Raynergate.
    Sunak will be hoping Israel retaliates overnight so he can bury the news! Perhaps we should ask that arsehole Daly what he thinks . I mean he’s so righteous he’d of course want the police to investigate.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Will James Daly be reporting this MP to the police?

    Revealed: Tory MP allegedly demanded campaign cash to pay ‘bad people’

    Mark Menzies, MP for Fylde, used thousands of pounds raised by donors for private expenses. His party had been aware for three months and took no action


    A Tory MP is under investigation over allegations that he misused campaign funds and abused his position after making a late-night phone call saying he’d been locked up by “bad people” who were demanding thousands of pounds, The Times can reveal.

    Mark Menzies, the Conservative MP for Fylde and a government trade envoy, rang an elderly local party volunteer at 3.15am in December saying he was locked in a flat and needed £5,000 as a matter of “life and death”. The sum, which rose to £6,500, was paid by his office manager from her personal bank account and subsequently reimbursed from campaign funds raised from donors.

    £14,000 given by donors for use on Tory campaign activities had previously been transferred to Menzies’s personal bank account and used for his private medical expenses.

    The Conservative Party has been aware of the allegations of potential fraud for more than three months and has taken no action. The MP was accused of paying for sex from a male escort in 2014.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    Who was it who said that Labour scandals are always about money, and Tory scandals are always about sex?
    It was some time in the 1970's, and in the version I was told continued with "..... and the Liberals are always both".
    Or involving dogs. Talking of which,

    Three years later, Menzies was interviewed by police over bizarre accusations that he had deliberately got an acquaintance’s dog drunk and, when challenged over his actions, started a fight with the friend. The dog reportedly required emergency veterinary treatment for “intoxication” and “poisoning”.

    Menzies told the press at the time that the allegations were “false and malicious” and police had dismissed the claims. A source close to the MP denied that Menzies had any involvement in the dog drinking alcohol. They claimed the dog had drunk alcohol that had been placed on the grass when the friend fell asleep, and that the friend had given alcohol to the dog on previous occasions.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-mark-menzies-under-investigation-campaign-funds-bhksggpwl

    One of Dave's A Listers, natch. Maybe that programme was a mistake.
    Just shows how the party lost its moral compass under Boris
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    "Why are Dutch doctors euthanising a healthy young woman?
    People suffering from mental ill-health, autism or learning difficulties are being encouraged to take their own lives.
    Kevin Yuill"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/18/why-are-dutch-doctors-euthanising-a-healthy-young-woman/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Taz said:

    I hope PB train nerds spotted the subtle railway station reference in the title.

    Very subtle !!
    Subtlety is my hallmark.
    Grand, central to your charm....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    Taz said:

    I hope PB train nerds spotted the subtle railway station reference in the title.

    Very subtle !!
    Subtlety is my hallmark.
    Grand, central to your charm....
    Welcome back!
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,574
    Andy_JS said:

    "Why are Dutch doctors euthanising a healthy young woman?
    People suffering from mental ill-health, autism or learning difficulties are being encouraged to take their own lives.
    Kevin Yuill"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/18/why-are-dutch-doctors-euthanising-a-healthy-young-woman/

    There are some pretty disturbing stories coming out of Canada too.

    If we go down this route, I hope we legislate very carefully indeed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    My favourite bit of this extraordinary @thetimes story. Menzies calls fmr campaign manager in middle of night and says it’s ’life or death’ unless she transfers £1000s immediately.
    She says no. Indicating that in choice between life or death, she’d made up her mind…..


    https://x.com/jonsopel/status/1780726368516354133
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    My favourite bit of this extraordinary @thetimes story. Menzies calls fmr campaign manager in middle of night and says it’s ’life or death’ unless she transfers £1000s immediately.
    She says no. Indicating that in choice between life or death, she’d made up her mind…..


    https://x.com/jonsopel/status/1780726368516354133

    Have worked for candidates like that.

    That is
    A. highly likely that at some stage they would feel pressing need to make such a call; and/or
    B. own response to such an appeal highly likely to be, hell no!
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    ‘No downsides’, part 3256:

    “Drug shortages are a “new normal” in the UK and are being exacerbated by Brexit, a report by the Nuffield Trust health thinktank has warned…

    Mark Dayan, the report’s lead author and the Nuffield Trust’s Brexit programme lead, said: “The rise in shortages of vital medicines from rare to commonplace has been a shocking development that few would have expected a decade ago.”

    …Global manufacturing problems linked to Covid, inflation, the war in Ukraine and global instability have helped cause the UK’s unprecedented inability to ensure patients can access drugs.

    But Britain’s departure from the EU in 2020 has significantly aggravated the problem, laid bare the “fragility” of the country’s medicines supply networks and could lead to the situation worsening, the report said.

    …The UK’s exit from the single market has disrupted the previously smooth supply of drugs, for example through the creation of a requirement for customs checks at the border, as has Britain’s decision to leave the EU’s European Medicines Agency and start approving drugs itself. The UK is now much slower than the EU at making new drugs available, the report found.

    Post-Brexit red tape has prompted some firms to stop supplying to the UK altogether.”

    Madness. Utter madness.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/apr/18/drug-shortages-normal-in-uk-made-worse-by-brexit-report-warns
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061

    ‘No downsides’, part 3256:

    “Drug shortages are a “new normal” in the UK and are being exacerbated by Brexit, a report by the Nuffield Trust health thinktank has warned…

    Mark Dayan, the report’s lead author and the Nuffield Trust’s Brexit programme lead, said: “The rise in shortages of vital medicines from rare to commonplace has been a shocking development that few would have expected a decade ago.”

    …Global manufacturing problems linked to Covid, inflation, the war in Ukraine and global instability have helped cause the UK’s unprecedented inability to ensure patients can access drugs.

    But Britain’s departure from the EU in 2020 has significantly aggravated the problem, laid bare the “fragility” of the country’s medicines supply networks and could lead to the situation worsening, the report said.

    …The UK’s exit from the single market has disrupted the previously smooth supply of drugs, for example through the creation of a requirement for customs checks at the border, as has Britain’s decision to leave the EU’s European Medicines Agency and start approving drugs itself. The UK is now much slower than the EU at making new drugs available, the report found.

    Post-Brexit red tape has prompted some firms to stop supplying to the UK altogether.”

    Madness. Utter madness.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/apr/18/drug-shortages-normal-in-uk-made-worse-by-brexit-report-warns

    As I recall, this was an obsession of Alastair Meeks, for which he was repeatedly taunted until he left.
This discussion has been closed.