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A new Street victory? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,159
edited April 28 in General
imageA new Street victory? – politicalbetting.com

Richard Parker leads Andy Street by 14%.West Midlands Mayoral Election VI (10-14 April):Richard Parker (Lab) 42%Andy Street (Cons) 28%Elaine Williams (Ref) 13%Siobhan Harper-Nunes (Green) 7%Sunny Virk (Lib Dem) 7%Other 2%https://t.co/BmEcOjM5q4 pic.twitter.com/oluoaQ5xdl

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Comments

  • PJHPJH Posts: 643
    First? (A first first)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    Second rate, like the government dreams of being...
  • PJHPJH Posts: 643
    On topic - although he seems to have done a decent job, he is running under the wrong colours to win and the gap is too big to close unless this poll is way off the mark
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Germany urges dozen of allies to send air defence systems to Ukraine

    Berlin launches global call to help protect cities, troops and infrastructure from Russia’s ‘murderous onslaught’
    https://www.ft.com/content/6db9f905-2dc3-41fd-b57a-1d062a62cc69
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Interesting to speculate what would happen if he dropped the Tory affiliation before the election. Usually that's a death knell but he has enough name recognition and reputation to pull it off. Many have tried but few have succeeded, the two that spring to mind being Ken Livingstone and George Galloway.

    Probably too late in the day to do so and there's no casus belli: his moment would have been when HS2 got screwed around with.
  • Cons are 4.0 to win West Midlands mayoralty on Betfair Exchange. Thanks @TSE I'm on.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721
    edited April 17

    I hope PB train nerds spotted the subtle railway station reference in the title.

    I've never heard Brum Central station referred to as 'subtle' before. Although I guess it is mostly buried. :wink:
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,233
    It’s COLD
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    May be associated with greater risks in those with CV disease.

    https://edoc.unibas.ch/56152/1/20170920162155_59c2798357d20.pdf
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,408
    TimS said:

    Interesting to speculate what would happen if he dropped the Tory affiliation before the election. Usually that's a death knell but he has enough name recognition and reputation to pull it off. Many have tried but few have succeeded, the two that spring to mind being Ken Livingstone and George Galloway.

    Probably too late in the day to do so and there's no casus belli: his moment would have been when HS2 got screwed around with.

    Yes, he does his best to play down his party affiliation, eschewing the use of the colour blue and avoiding as far as possible any mention of the Conservatives in his leaflets, but he's missed his moment to jump if he was going to do so.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 17
    Can anyone tell me what Street has actually done for “Greater Birmingham and the Black Country” (my preferred nomenclature) apart from not be insane like his party colleagues?

    He deserves to lose.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,035
    Something unusual happened last night - the Conservatives gained a seat in a local council by-election. It was in Pembrokeshire and was from an Independent. There were 5 candidates but the winner was the only party affiliated. However she stood as an Independent last time and one of the Indendents this time last stood as Green. Rural Welsh politics at its best.
    There are 2 further by-elections tomorrow - a Lib Dem defence in East Cambridgeshire and a Residents defence in Waverley.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    I'm wondering whether the HS2 billboards (live in Brum, party in Manchester, work in London - or similar) are still there in the centre. They were odd enough to start with - was the message supposed to be: "yes, Brum's a shit hole but the housing is cheap and you can spend all your time in Manchester or London"? - but look really silly after the Brum-Manc cancellation.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Fair play to Street, he seems to built a reputation as a pretty decent metro mayor (I still think the whole mayoral system is rubbish though and I’m still not entirely sure I know what a lot of them actually do). But yes, party affiliation will do for him in all likelihood.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    edited April 17

    Fair play to Street, he seems to built a reputation as a pretty decent metro mayor (I still think the whole mayoral system is rubbish though and I’m still not entirely sure I know what a lot of them actually do). But yes, party affiliation will do for him in all likelihood.

    Since there about to be some more, you may be about to find out.

    The main benefit afaics is that they create longer time horizons for local / regional policies and settlements.

    Street has created an authority doing things in transport with capability to deliver active travel schemes (one of only 5 places outside London assessed as Level 3), which is significant.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    Cons are 4.0 to win West Midlands mayoralty on Betfair Exchange. Thanks @TSE I'm on.

    Thanks, I’ve updated the thread header.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721
    edited April 17

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Yes, that's why it will never happen. There's little political upside and masses of potential downside - even if regulated, pure and 'safe' some kids will get off their tit and fall off something/crash a car or something.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    MattW said:

    Fair play to Street, he seems to built a reputation as a pretty decent metro mayor (I still think the whole mayoral system is rubbish though and I’m still not entirely sure I know what a lot of them actually do). But yes, party affiliation will do for him in all likelihood.

    Since there about to be some more, you may be about to find out.

    The main benefit afaics is that they create longer time horizons for local / regional policies and settlements.
    Certainly I can see how the strategic benefit that you outline could help. I guess my criticism is less around actually having a mayor and more about the fact it has just added to the byzantine hodgepodge of local government in this country.

    The biggest mess that has come out of the devolution movement is that we now have so many different systems at play, nobody has a clue who does what or where the power lies. Which has, I will add, allowed many devolved governments to get away with blaming everyone else but themselves.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044
    TimS said:

    Interesting to speculate what would happen if he dropped the Tory affiliation before the election. Usually that's a death knell but he has enough name recognition and reputation to pull it off. Many have tried but few have succeeded, the two that spring to mind being Ken Livingstone and George Galloway.

    Probably too late in the day to do so and there's no casus belli: his moment would have been when HS2 got screwed around with.

    Nomination papers are in. Postal voting has started. Definitely too late!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044
    TimS said:

    Interesting to speculate what would happen if he dropped the Tory affiliation before the election. Usually that's a death knell but he has enough name recognition and reputation to pull it off. Many have tried but few have succeeded, the two that spring to mind being Ken Livingstone and George Galloway.

    Probably too late in the day to do so and there's no casus belli: his moment would have been when HS2 got screwed around with.

    Also worked for Alex Easton in the last NI Assembly elections. He resigned from the DUP, stood as an independent and got elected.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,233
    That man died after eating a conker
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Can anyone tell me what Street has actually done for “Greater Birmingham and the Black Country” (my preferred nomenclature) apart from not be insane like his party colleagues?

    He deserves to lose.

    I understand, from those moderately in the know, that he has successfully lobbied central government on a few topics and got the WMids more than its fair share of infrastructure and levelling up funding. Despite the canning of the Manchester link he does seem to have helped to ward off even bigger HS2 cuts (e.g. cancelling the whole thing).

    So not a complete loss. It's probably unfair to contrast with London since Street is in the ruling party and has more leverage, but I can't think of much if anything that Sadiq has managed successfully to lobby for on behalf of London.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Yes, that's why it will never happen. There's little political upside and masses of potential downside - even if regulated, pure and 'safe' some kids will get off their tit and fall off something/crash a car or something.
    I can think of two upsides *if* you're brave enough. Tax revenue and pressure off policing/prisons. But you have to be brave enough. Possibly much more feasible in 20 or so years - the generations for whom drug use was a big taboo (rather than a choice they wouldn't make) are beginning to disappear. Plus there's odd allies on all parts of the political spectrum where it could end up party policy if the faction that buys into legalisation is in the ascendant.

    I wouldn't bet on it, but it's plausible that in 20-30 years a Tory leader who's emerged from what you might call the 'techbro' right, puts it in a manifesto in a bid to convince voters his or her party has changed and is modern.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    Certainly plausible that this will be so. However I think we have to wait and see what the polling does when we are in the actual campaign. It may be that the electorate has already decided, but I have suspicion that an awful lot of people don't read PB (the mugs, they are missing out) and don't obsess over Ange's tax affairs and Boris's affairs and whether Truss wore a necklace that somehow means @Leon WAS RIGHT. Most people get on with their lives and only pay attention when they need to.
    I am pretty confident of a Labour majority. The gap seems too far and the Tories have been in too long, and are associated with the bad things that have happened (rightly or wrongly) since 2016. (Brexit was their fault, Covid and Ukraine not). But election campaigns sometimes do move the dial. Who saw May calling the 2017 election and imagined her crawly off with a stuffed bag of notes to the DUP six weeks later?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    His analysis reads pretty logically. Funny how much more level headed he is on his blog than during the heydey of his excoriating PB thread headers. That's what Brexit did to us all.

    Sadly his prognosis for the Lib Dems' seat count is both downbeat and worryingly credible.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    TimS said:

    Interesting to speculate what would happen if he dropped the Tory affiliation before the election. Usually that's a death knell but he has enough name recognition and reputation to pull it off. Many have tried but few have succeeded, the two that spring to mind being Ken Livingstone and George Galloway.

    Probably too late in the day to do so and there's no casus belli: his moment would have been when HS2 got screwed around with.

    Nomination papers are in. Postal voting has started. Definitely too late!
    Rochdale byelection says it's never too late to lose your party whip.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
    I've posted studies that suggest MDMA is not completely safe. It is probably a lot safer than many things out there, and certainly its use is being looked into for psychotherapy. I'd be worried about legalisation because young people do stupid things.

    I don't think governments handle drug law at all well. The safety or not rarely matches the legal status.
    And horse riding.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Kids who die from contaminated pills have died precisely because they are illegal.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,543
    "LAB: 43% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-2)
    LDM: 10% (=)
    RFM: 9% (-1)
    GRN: 4% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via @savanta_UK, 12-14 Apr.
    Changes w/ 5-7 Apr."
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
    I've posted studies that suggest MDMA is not completely safe. It is probably a lot safer than many things out there, and certainly its use is being looked into for psychotherapy. I'd be worried about legalisation because young people do stupid things.

    I don't think governments handle drug law at all well. The safety or not rarely matches the legal status.
    And horse riding.
    For the record I am not advocating legal sale to minors.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Kids who die from contaminated pills have died precisely because they are illegal.
    There have been campaigns, by parents of children who died, for Netherlands style testing.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/drug-safety-testing-centres-recreational-ecstasy-the-loop-georgia-jones-daniel-spargo-mabbs-a8649101.html
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited April 17
    MJW said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Yes, that's why it will never happen. There's little political upside and masses of potential downside - even if regulated, pure and 'safe' some kids will get off their tit and fall off something/crash a car or something.
    I can think of two upsides *if* you're brave enough. Tax revenue and pressure off policing/prisons. But you have to be brave enough. Possibly much more feasible in 20 or so years - the generations for whom drug use was a big taboo (rather than a choice they wouldn't make) are beginning to disappear. Plus there's odd allies on all parts of the political spectrum where it could end up party policy if the faction that buys into legalisation is in the ascendant.

    I wouldn't bet on it, but it's plausible that in 20-30 years a Tory leader who's emerged from what you might call the 'techbro' right, puts it in a manifesto in a bid to convince voters his or her party has changed and is modern.
    I'd love a think tank to do a proper line by line ranking of all narcotics, legal and illegal, based on 4 variables:

    1. Risk of harm to user
    2. Risk of harm to others
    3. Non-health costs of making / remaining illegal
    4. Non-health benefits of making / remaining legal

    Actually I probably wouldn't because it would have alcohol high up on 1 and extremely high up on 2.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,601
    edited April 17
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    His analysis reads pretty logically. Funny how much more level headed he is on his blog than during the heydey of his excoriating PB thread headers. That's what Brexit did to us all.

    Sadly his prognosis for the Lib Dems' seat count is both downbeat and worryingly credible.
    A "Red Tory" supermajority will probably lead to a lot of fractiousness on the left. Starmer will have a much harder job than Blair.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
    I've posted studies that suggest MDMA is not completely safe. It is probably a lot safer than many things out there, and certainly its use is being looked into for psychotherapy. I'd be worried about legalisation because young people do stupid things.

    I don't think governments handle drug law at all well. The safety or not rarely matches the legal status.
    And horse riding.
    Legalisation would presumably come with a minimum age limit and prescribed maximum dosage, as with drugs like Codeine.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Kids who die from contaminated pills have died precisely because they are illegal.
    I do not dispute that. But there are associated risks with MDMA - see the work on hyperpyrexia. Also for those with CV. It is not entirely safe (nor is say caffeine).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,233
    A conker







    Dead
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    slade said:

    Something unusual happened last night - the Conservatives gained a seat in a local council by-election. It was in Pembrokeshire and was from an Independent. There were 5 candidates but the winner was the only party affiliated. However she stood as an Independent last time and one of the Indendents this time last stood as Green. Rural Welsh politics at its best.
    There are 2 further by-elections tomorrow - a Lib Dem defence in East Cambridgeshire and a Residents defence in Waverley.

    I'm quite familiar with the Waverley one, which is a bit unusual. Waverley is governed by a LD-led coalition with Labour, Green and Farnham Residents, the latter being a localist group formed when the Tories tried to pressure one of their councillors over a planning issue - when he refused to yield, they deselected him, he formed his own party, and they swept the board in Farnham. They had a deal with the LibDems that the LDs would only stand in one Farnham ward in 2023, and Labour (not party to that part of the deal) stood and were runners-up wherever we stood.

    Fast forward to 2024 and a winning Farnham Resident found she was too busy and abruptly resigned her seat. That should have created an opportunity for Labour ("the Resident evidently couldn't be bothered, why not try us"), but the LibDems decided the pact was over and are contesting the seat too. So you're now seeing Labour bar charts showing LibDems on zero ("didn't even stand last time"). Meanwhile we are all still in amicable coalition (though I've stepped down from the Exec and am phasing out my involvement).

    I did a couple of hours' phone canvassing there, but am little the wiser. Could be Farnham Res, LDs, Lab or even Tories, though the last is IMO unlikely.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
    I've posted studies that suggest MDMA is not completely safe. It is probably a lot safer than many things out there, and certainly its use is being looked into for psychotherapy. I'd be worried about legalisation because young people do stupid things.

    I don't think governments handle drug law at all well. The safety or not rarely matches the legal status.
    And horse riding.
    Legalisation would presumably come with a minimum age limit and prescribed maximum dosage, as with drugs like Codeine.
    Yep, and that would not stop a stupid 19 year old taking 5 at a time because he thought it would be cool.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    Wrong link.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Andy_JS said:

    "LAB: 43% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-2)
    LDM: 10% (=)
    RFM: 9% (-1)
    GRN: 4% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via @savanta_UK, 12-14 Apr.
    Changes w/ 5-7 Apr."

    That's scary polling for the Conservatives. 25%, with sub-10% for Reform leaves little easy swingback opportunity.

    LLG 57%, RefCon 34%.

    Something looks odd in the maths though. 43+25+10+9+4+3=94%. Are "other - misc" really on 6%, or even 5% assuming rounding's part of the issue? 1% for Plaid, maybe 1-2% for UKIP at a push.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    I'm not sure how this found me.

    (Hope it wasn't upthread)

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,678
    Leon said:

    A conker







    Dead

    Tragic really. And they talk about 'Intelligent Design'. What sort of designer would use the same pipe for both breathing in vital oxygen and consuming solid food stuff that could easily block it?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
    I've posted studies that suggest MDMA is not completely safe. It is probably a lot safer than many things out there, and certainly its use is being looked into for psychotherapy. I'd be worried about legalisation because young people do stupid things.

    I don't think governments handle drug law at all well. The safety or not rarely matches the legal status.
    And horse riding.
    Legalisation would presumably come with a minimum age limit and prescribed maximum dosage, as with drugs like Codeine.
    Yep, and that would not stop a stupid 19 year old taking 5 at a time because he thought it would be cool.
    But in the same way it doesn't stop 19 year olds (or underaged children) drinking a whole bottle of vodka or dosing up on their gran's legal tranquilizers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,863
    Several hours later, I've caught up with PMQs. Rishi was surprisingly good when answering questions rather than reciting his scripted attack lines. Has there been a change of personnel in his PMQs prep team?
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    edited April 17
    Rishi Sunak is at 2.4 at Betfair to be replaced as Tory leader before the end of 2024.

    A feasible path to him staying as Tory leader is what, exactly? The party will only win the election without him. With him, it would get walloped. Either way, he goes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    Then the Prime Minister would have been Curzon Street.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited April 17
    Donkeys said:

    Rishi Sunak is at 2.4 at Betfair to be replaced as Tory leader before the end of 2024.

    A feasible path to him staying as Tory leader is what, exactly? The party will only win the election without him. With him, it would get walloped. Either way, he goes.

    Election in November/December, Tories lose, Sunak resigns and it takes 2/3 months for a Tory leadership contest to conclude and he formally ceases to be Tory leader in early 2025.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    TimS said:

    MJW said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Hyperpyrexia - https://liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ther.2018.0002
    That's the interesting thing, isn't it? Unless it's impurities or a dose issue, there is perhaps a risk of rare but extreme adverse outcomes with MDMA that are not present with alcohol at sane doses.

    One would need to establish whether such adverse reactions are due to taking the equivalent of a couple of bottles of whisky (or a methanol-based drink) of MDMA or whether it's possible from taking the equivalent of a clean pint of session IPA.
    The increased risks for those with CV disease are probably less of an issue for 18 year olds at Reading Festival, but maybe more so for the ageing rocker types (PB members) at Glastonbury.

    The problem with making it legal (or one of the problems) is the deaths from taking MDMA. It doesn't matter that they were almost certainly mostly due to contamenents, You can imagine the campaigns from mothers of deceased kids all over BBC breakfast...
    Yes, that's why it will never happen. There's little political upside and masses of potential downside - even if regulated, pure and 'safe' some kids will get off their tit and fall off something/crash a car or something.
    I can think of two upsides *if* you're brave enough. Tax revenue and pressure off policing/prisons. But you have to be brave enough. Possibly much more feasible in 20 or so years - the generations for whom drug use was a big taboo (rather than a choice they wouldn't make) are beginning to disappear. Plus there's odd allies on all parts of the political spectrum where it could end up party policy if the faction that buys into legalisation is in the ascendant.

    I wouldn't bet on it, but it's plausible that in 20-30 years a Tory leader who's emerged from what you might call the 'techbro' right, puts it in a manifesto in a bid to convince voters his or her party has changed and is modern.
    I'd love a think tank to do a proper line by line ranking of all narcotics, legal and illegal, based on 4 variables:

    1. Risk of harm to user
    2. Risk of harm to others
    3. Non-health costs of making / remaining illegal
    4. Non-health benefits of making / remaining legal

    Actually I probably wouldn't because it would have alcohol high up on 1 and extremely high up on 2.
    Yeah I mean that's partly why it's so difficult isn't it? We have a longstanding cultural norm based around alcohol as a drug of choice that might have to be totally reimagined if we went down another route.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I am a liberal. I think people should be free. Sunak's smoking proposals are a restriction on people's freedoms to buy cigarettes. So, why support them?

    Most people who smoke want to give up. That's because nicotine is astonishingly addictive. Most people smoking are doing something they would rather not be doing, because they are compelled by their addiction. That is a restriction on people's freedoms. We increase liberty by banning an addictive drug.

    Social media is also astonishingly addictive. Maybe it also needs to be banned.
    Why are ecstasy and mushrooms banned? There could be huge social and economic benefits to regulating them.
    People can die after taking ecstasy - https://statista.com/statistics/470824/drug-poisoning-deaths-mdma-ecstasy-in-england-and-wales/

    Less likely from mushrooms (as long as you pick the right ones)
    Drug testing in the Netherlands seems to have eliminated Ecstasy related deaths - which were associated with contaminants, wildly varying dosages and pills simply being other drugs.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1784

    Which strongly suggests that legalised and regulated sale would have a similar effect.
    I think you are probably right with this, however I think ecstasy is still a pretty dangerous drug to take.

    David Nutt's point about horse riding is germane. Plenty die or are paralysed riding horses each year but we don't ban it. Should people be allowed to take the chance on regulated, QC passed ecstasy? Probably. Mushrooms I'd argue definitely.
    A pretty dangerous drug on what basis? Toxicity, risk, harm to others? And compared to what, alcohol, caffeine, paracetamol?

    As @Malmsbury has shown, ecstasy deaths have been effectively eliminated where quasi-regulation and decriminalisation exists.

    “A pretty dangerous drug” is quite a claim.

    Show your working.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-018-0444-7

    No time to go into much depth but a cursory flick through web of science suggests enough to be concerned (even if only for safety doing other things after taking MDMA).
    Er, so like booze, mushrooms or, erm, most other drugs. True, one shouldn't drive or work on building site when loved up, but I guess most of us knew that.
    Its not just that. Hyperpyrexia seems to be a danger too. As I said, I don't think ecstasy is 'safe', and there would be risks associated with it.
    Nothing in life is safe. The question is about finding the appropriate balance of risks. Right now prohibition and placing the supply of a relatively harmless substance in the hands of criminals who cut it with far more dangerous substances is clearly creating more risk than is necessary. It is costing people their lives, mostly young people with much to live for. The stupidity and cowardice of our political caste on this issue is one of the few things in politics that makes me genuinely angry.
    I've posted studies that suggest MDMA is not completely safe. It is probably a lot safer than many things out there, and certainly its use is being looked into for psychotherapy. I'd be worried about legalisation because young people do stupid things.

    I don't think governments handle drug law at all well. The safety or not rarely matches the legal status.
    And horse riding.
    Legalisation would presumably come with a minimum age limit and prescribed maximum dosage, as with drugs like Codeine.
    Yep, and that would not stop a stupid 19 year old taking 5 at a time because he thought it would be cool.
    But in the same way it doesn't stop 19 year olds (or underaged children) drinking a whole bottle of vodka or dosing up on their gran's legal tranquilizers.
    True. I doubt its going to come about anyway - most politicians will not touch it with a barge-pole - double finger number of dead people each year from MDMA does not lend itself to a legalisation campaign.*

    *And yes, I know that almost all, if not all, will have been down to impure, illegal MDMA.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214

    MattW said:

    Fair play to Street, he seems to built a reputation as a pretty decent metro mayor (I still think the whole mayoral system is rubbish though and I’m still not entirely sure I know what a lot of them actually do). But yes, party affiliation will do for him in all likelihood.

    Since there about to be some more, you may be about to find out.

    The main benefit afaics is that they create longer time horizons for local / regional policies and settlements.
    Certainly I can see how the strategic benefit that you outline could help. I guess my criticism is less around actually having a mayor and more about the fact it has just added to the byzantine hodgepodge of local government in this country.

    The biggest mess that has come out of the devolution movement is that we now have so many different systems at play, nobody has a clue who does what or where the power lies. Which has, I will add, allowed many devolved governments to get away with blaming everyone else but themselves.
    Location of power is easy- Westminster. Everyone else is there to lobby for funds from the centre, mostly to implement the agenda of the centre.

    It's a miracle that anyone wants to run local/metro government.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    I hope PB train nerds spotted the subtle railway station reference in the title.

    Very subtle !!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    Certainly plausible that this will be so. However I think we have to wait and see what the polling does when we are in the actual campaign. It may be that the electorate has already decided, but I have suspicion that an awful lot of people don't read PB (the mugs, they are missing out) and don't obsess over Ange's tax affairs and Boris's affairs and whether Truss wore a necklace that somehow means @Leon WAS RIGHT. Most people get on with their lives and only pay attention when they need to.
    I am pretty confident of a Labour majority. The gap seems too far and the Tories have been in too long, and are associated with the bad things that have happened (rightly or wrongly) since 2016. (Brexit was their fault, Covid and Ukraine not). But election campaigns sometimes do move the dial. Who saw May calling the 2017 election and imagined her crawly off with a stuffed bag of notes to the DUP six weeks later?
    Yes, a big Labour win looks baked in (and I think it is) but it's not done till it's done. If you offered SKS a deeply disappointing majority of say 50 right now I bet he'd take it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,543
    Liz Truss's book:

    "#1 Best Seller in Philosopher Biographies"

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ten-Years-Save-West-conservative/dp/178590857X
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,678
    edited April 17

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But the moment he scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Taz said:

    I hope PB train nerds spotted the subtle railway station reference in the title.

    Very subtle !!
    Subtlety is my hallmark.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    His analysis reads pretty logically. Funny how much more level headed he is on his blog than during the heydey of his excoriating PB thread headers. That's what Brexit did to us all.

    Sadly his prognosis for the Lib Dems' seat count is both downbeat and worryingly credible.
    What would you be content with for LD seats?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,233

    Leon said:

    A conker







    Dead

    Tragic really. And they talk about 'Intelligent Design'. What sort of designer would use the same pipe for both breathing in vital oxygen and consuming solid food stuff that could easily block it?

    Man + conker = death

    How do you even negotiate that, philosophically? I just hope he wasn’t saying “obbly obbly onker, my first conker” the moment it happened. Because it might have been true. But his first conker was also his last

    😶
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Andy_JS said:

    "LAB: 43% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-2)
    LDM: 10% (=)
    RFM: 9% (-1)
    GRN: 4% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via @savanta_UK, 12-14 Apr.
    Changes w/ 5-7 Apr."

    Oh dear. @Heathener has seen their pattern broken, just as I warned them it might be, and this poll even has the lead widening, but still below 20%.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,543
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "LAB: 43% (+1)
    CON: 25% (-2)
    LDM: 10% (=)
    RFM: 9% (-1)
    GRN: 4% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via @savanta_UK, 12-14 Apr.
    Changes w/ 5-7 Apr."

    That's scary polling for the Conservatives. 25%, with sub-10% for Reform leaves little easy swingback opportunity.

    LLG 57%, RefCon 34%.

    Something looks odd in the maths though. 43+25+10+9+4+3=94%. Are "other - misc" really on 6%, or even 5% assuming rounding's part of the issue? 1% for Plaid, maybe 1-2% for UKIP at a push.
    One to check in the data tables later. Could be a lot of rounding, perhaps, given that the cumulative changes are -2.

    Might also be that stone of the other others are people who would say Reform if they were prompted for - would have to check how they ask the questions. May indicate that a lot of the Reform voted picked up by other pollsters is a pure NOTA. If that vote is going to Reform, rather than Lib Dems, will help to explain why the LDM polling is still stuck at a relatively low level.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    PJH said:

    On topic - although he seems to have done a decent job, he is running under the wrong colours to win and the gap is too big to close unless this poll is way off the mark

    Last time he barely ran under the Conservative colours - lots of "John Lewis Green" all over it.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    Wrong link.
    Ah yes, sorry. Should have been this one:
    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/moving-the-needle-what-kind-of-swing-to-expect-at-the-next-election-d1f164f0ab35
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,233
    I can’t believe my death/conker discourse is not gaining traction. Sometimes you have to look up from the gutter. And see the higher things
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 316
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    Certainly plausible that this will be so. However I think we have to wait and see what the polling does when we are in the actual campaign. It may be that the electorate has already decided, but I have suspicion that an awful lot of people don't read PB (the mugs, they are missing out) and don't obsess over Ange's tax affairs and Boris's affairs and whether Truss wore a necklace that somehow means @Leon WAS RIGHT. Most people get on with their lives and only pay attention when they need to.
    I am pretty confident of a Labour majority. The gap seems too far and the Tories have been in too long, and are associated with the bad things that have happened (rightly or wrongly) since 2016. (Brexit was their fault, Covid and Ukraine not). But election campaigns sometimes do move the dial. Who saw May calling the 2017 election and imagined her crawly off with a stuffed bag of notes to the DUP six weeks later?
    Yes, a big Labour win looks baked in (and I think it is) but it's not done till it's done. If you offered SKS a deeply disappointing majority of say 50 right now I bet he'd take it.
    In a heartbeat, and I don't think he would be at all disappointed
  • More in Common have published a poll today (fieldwork on 15 April), comparisons with 9 April are broadly flat.

    C 26% -
    L 43% -
    LD 10% -
    R 11% (-1)
    G 6% (+1)
    SNP 3% -

    On their website https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/voting-intention/
    they have an interactive graphic which looks at voting percentage for each of their seven segments as well as their top issues.

    Conservatives are still ahead of Labour in Backbone Conservatives (44-30) and Disengaged Traditionalists (35-34) segments.



  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    He wanted Starmer to commit to HS2, so he could portray Labour as not caring about the North. Screwing over a vital piece of needed infrastructure just to try and lay a political trap. What a guy.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    His analysis reads pretty logically. Funny how much more level headed he is on his blog than during the heydey of his excoriating PB thread headers. That's what Brexit did to us all.

    Sadly his prognosis for the Lib Dems' seat count is both downbeat and worryingly credible.
    I'm obviously biased, but I do think the LibDems should concentrate resources on the top targets where there isn't a serious Labour effort - I know of at least two in Surrey and think there are several more, plus others in the southwest. None of them are in the bag but they do have a good shot in those, and if they spread their spending too thinly they risk having a lot of 20-25% results but almost no gains. The problem is that their USP is "not Tory and not mad", and Labour is ticking that box more obviously.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    Leon said:

    I can’t believe my death/conker discourse is not gaining traction. Sometimes you have to look up from the gutter. And see the higher things

    Maybe because nobody wants to join a group chuckle about a vulnerable old person dying a horrible death?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    "I'm the one making tough decisions for the long term" sounds so much more worthwhile than "I'm the one making bad decisions because I have no idea what I'm doing"

    He's not the only one who is similarly confused but he's particularly unaware I would say.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Seattle Times - WA governor candidate Semi Bird says ‘no excuse’ for [his past] financial crime

    Republican gubernatorial candidate Semi Bird pleaded guilty in 1993 to a misdemeanor count of bank larceny for lying on a credit application by using the name and Social Security number of his father, records show.

    According to the previously unreported federal conviction, Bird, then 30 and living in Sunnyside, Yakima County, falsified a 1991 credit application “with intent to steal and purloin” funds from U.S. Bank.

    Under the plea agreement, signed May 11, 1993, Bird, whose full name is Misipati Semi Bird, was sentenced to two years of probation and agreed to pay restitution of $1,963 and a fine of $500.

    n an interview Tuesday, Bird, now 63, said he makes no excuses for the mistake decades ago.

    “Guilty as charged — 100%,” he said. “It was wrong . . . . “there was no excuse.”

    SSI - Timing of this revelation is quite interesting, coming on eve of this week's WA State Republican Convention. Which will endorse candidates for Governor and other state & federal offices on August primary ballot.

    Top Republican candidate for Gov - and sole credible hope for the general election - is former WA congressman and King Co sheriff Dave Reichert. My guess is this story MAY (emphasis on conditional) help him at a convention sure to be dominated by wingnuts.

    But maybe not.

    BTW, Reichert tried to help himself on that front, by stating before a GOPer audience that, “No. 1, my wife is a woman and I’m a man . . . There’s only man and woman. I was raised as a Christian. And marriage is between a man and a woman.”

    This was an ad hoc response, to questions about his position of transgender issues. Will NOT hurt him with GOP convention delegates & politicos. BUT likely will NOT help him in the general election PROVIDED he makes it through the "Top Two" primary. Which is a VERY good bet IMHO.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    His analysis reads pretty logically. Funny how much more level headed he is on his blog than during the heydey of his excoriating PB thread headers. That's what Brexit did to us all.

    Sadly his prognosis for the Lib Dems' seat count is both downbeat and worryingly credible.
    I'm obviously biased, but I do think the LibDems should concentrate resources on the top targets where there isn't a serious Labour effort - I know of at least two in Surrey and think there are several more, plus others in the southwest. None of them are in the bag but they do have a good shot in those, and if they spread their spending too thinly they risk having a lot of 20-25% results but almost no gains. The problem is that their USP is "not Tory and not mad", and Labour is ticking that box more obviously.
    I've voted LD more than Labour in the past and concur. My strongest feeling at the moment is anti Tory (and have voted for them in the past), and struggle to see much of a distinction between current LDs and Labour Starmerites. Maybe there will be more differentiation by the time of the election but 1) there might not be 2) will it cut through the noise even if there is and 3) I'm still going to be mostly anti Tory this time anyway unless Labour do something pretty silly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,886
    On that polling, Susan Hall is now polling slightly higher in London than Andy Street is in the West Midlands
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Question about/for Liberal Democrats:

    Q> Would they do better at impending general election IF they defenestrated Ed Davey? Or worse? Or no difference?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    Network North, fix potholes in Peckham.

    I wonder why the Tories are struggling in the polls at the moment?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    HYUFD said:

    On that polling, Susan Hall is now polling slightly higher in London than Andy Street is in the West Midlands

    It is a bad time to be an incumbant, anywhere, even as Mayor.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Question about/for Liberal Democrats:

    Q> Would they do better at impending general election IF they defenestrated Ed Davey? Or worse? Or no difference?

    Personally I think so.
    Daisy Cooper looks like catnip for older Waitrose types.
    Doubly so when set aside grey Keir and shite Sunak.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    CatMan said:

    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    He wanted Starmer to commit to HS2, so he could portray Labour as not caring about the North. Screwing over a vital piece of needed infrastructure just to try and lay a political trap. What a guy.
    Yes, with the honourable exception of the ciggie ban Sunak has proved to be a cynical lightweight thoroughly deserving of the GE humiliation coming his way. I've been surprised on the downside. I thought he'd be quite good, stop the rot, lead the Tories to a solid second place. Ah well.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    HS2 was cancelled for tax cuts, and to try to create a trap for Labour.

    Rishi is also ideologically opposed to public infrastructure, with the possible exception of chess boards.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited April 17
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    New one from the Meeks. He reckons the Labour majority will be much bigger than you'd get by using UNS on the poll numbers:
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/12090/a-new-street-victory-politicalbetting-com#latest

    His analysis reads pretty logically. Funny how much more level headed he is on his blog than during the heydey of his excoriating PB thread headers. That's what Brexit did to us all.

    Sadly his prognosis for the Lib Dems' seat count is both downbeat and worryingly credible.
    What would you be content with for LD seats?
    35 would be my mental threshold I think. But most important is leapfrogging the SNP into the 3rd party in parliament.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 17
    kinabalu said:

    CatMan said:

    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    He wanted Starmer to commit to HS2, so he could portray Labour as not caring about the North. Screwing over a vital piece of needed infrastructure just to try and lay a political trap. What a guy.
    Yes, with the honourable exception of the ciggie ban Sunak has proved to be a cynical lightweight thoroughly deserving of the GE humiliation coming his way. I've been surprised on the downside. I thought he'd be quite good, stop the rot, lead the Tories to a solid second place. Ah well.
    He doesn’t have the courage of his convictions, and what convictions he does have are shit.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    More in Common have published a poll today (fieldwork on 15 April), comparisons with 9 April are broadly flat.

    C 26% -
    L 43% -
    LD 10% -
    R 11% (-1)
    G 6% (+1)
    SNP 3% -

    On their website https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/voting-intention/
    they have an interactive graphic which looks at voting percentage for each of their seven segments as well as their top issues.

    Conservatives are still ahead of Labour in Backbone Conservatives (44-30) and Disengaged Traditionalists (35-34) segments.

    It's a couple of weeks since we saw any Reform surges in polling if I'm not mistaken. I think they are beginning to come a little off the boil. Possibly as local and mayoral paperwork starts arriving through letterboxes and Reform are nowhere to be seen.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    FF43 said:

    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    "I'm the one making tough decisions for the long term" sounds so much more worthwhile than "I'm the one making bad decisions because I have no idea what I'm doing"

    He's not the only one who is similarly confused but he's particularly unaware I would say.
    When politicians talk about making tough decisions, what they really mean is that the decision making is easy, the consequences for the rest of us are tough.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,601
    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    It would have been tactically smarter for Truss to begin with something like that rather than what she did.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Question about/for Liberal Democrats:

    Q> Would they do better at impending general election IF they defenestrated Ed Davey? Or worse? Or no difference?

    2 answers:

    - On purely leadership terms, no difference
    - As a result of the actual defenestration process and the message that sends, probably worse

    There are OK candidates waiting in the wings for next time but no obvious king/queen across the water. The personality of the local PPC will matter more than the leader I think, come the election. After all the LDs are unlikely to provide the next prime minister, or indeed be in coalition.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,212
    O/T

    As part of an assessment, where I work, we looked into the programming capability of various "AI" including the latest from OpenAI.

    The overall conclusion was that while they make interesting code completion tools (write a short, specific piece of code for a simple task), when task went beyond fragments, the results were unusable. And took more time to correct than coding from scratch.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984


    Question about/for Liberal Democrats:

    Q> Would they do better at impending general election IF they defenestrated Ed Davey? Or worse? Or no difference?

    Personally I think so.
    Daisy Cooper looks like catnip for older Waitrose types.
    Doubly so when set aside grey Keir and shite Sunak.
    I think she'll be next, but if she came to the leadership now as a result of a coup against Davey I don't think that woudl help the optics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    edited April 17

    Question about/for Liberal Democrats:

    Q> Would they do better at impending general election IF they defenestrated Ed Davey? Or worse? Or no difference?

    I don’t think it’s on brand for them to change leaders by chucking the incumbent out of a window.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513
    HYUFD said:

    On that polling, Susan Hall is now polling slightly higher in London than Andy Street is in the West Midlands

    The "negative incumbency" effect?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,543
    edited April 17
    O/T

    New blog post on the search for MH370 by Richard Godfrey, who had a "Eureka moment" about 3 years ago that WSPR radio signals could be used to detect where the plane crashed.

    https://www.mh370search.com/2024/04/17/was-the-original-target-mh370-or-mh150/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    kinabalu said:

    CatMan said:

    kinabalu said:

    As noted upthread, he ought to have martyred himself on Sunak’s wanton destruction of HS2.

    A very peculiar decision by Rishi. Yes, there were elements on the Right who bitched about HS2, so perhaps Rishi thought he'd ingratiate himself with them. But after he'd scrapped it literally everyone on earth started saying what a great idea HS2 was and how Rishi was a twit for mucking it up. Daft.
    That was in his "tough decisions favouring commonsense over blob consensus" phase.
    He wanted Starmer to commit to HS2, so he could portray Labour as not caring about the North. Screwing over a vital piece of needed infrastructure just to try and lay a political trap. What a guy.
    Yes, with the honourable exception of the ciggie ban Sunak has proved to be a cynical lightweight thoroughly deserving of the GE humiliation coming his way. I've been surprised on the downside. I thought he'd be quite good, stop the rot, lead the Tories to a solid second place. Ah well.
    He doesn’t have the courage of his convictions, and what convictions he does have are shit.
    And just very overpromoted, I think. No hard yards done at all.
This discussion has been closed.