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Welcome to Gilead – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited April 28 in General
Welcome to Gilead – politicalbetting.com

This is a painful story that so many families around America now know too well: Amanda was denied the medical care she needed, and it nearly took her life.More than 1 in 3 women in America now lives under an abortion ban, with more on the way.Donald Trump did this. pic.twitter.com/2vH8EdzIw8

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,319
    First.

    Must be a slow day.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited April 9
    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,669

    First.

    Must be a slow day.

    V e r y s l o w.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited April 9

    First.

    Must be a slow day.

    Up to my eyeballs in compliance work.

    One team have been working from an out of date compliance script for the past week.

    I am currently arranging kneecappings for the guilty parties.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,319
    edited April 9

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    On topic, yes, this is what happens when you reject the any notion of the system and community ultimately being bigger than winning or losing: you also lose track of the foundation of the basis of human rights and become willing to countenance all sorts of horrors if it helps your side or just if you like the idea in isolation (and often despite the obvious objection that the other side could act likewise - perhaps because they've convinced themselves that the other side would do it anyway, whatever the objective evidence).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 9
    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109
    OT: some suggest the voting gap* in Northern Ireland between Nationalist voters and Nationalist voters who would voter for unification is down to abortion rights.

    That is how strong it is.

    *During the PIRA campaign, a non trivial chunk of SF voters were against unification. That is, supporters of a party dedicated to using armed violence to achieve unification, were against unification.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    This ad is a great reminder that politics matters, that voters have a choice about what rules they want to live under, and that bad choices have consequences. Like @TSE I think voters won't vote for the man who did this.

    The reaction to the GOP’s cascade of local anti-abortion laws has been very reassuring too. America is not Gilead, even in much of the South.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    In reality, Trump is about as interested in abortion as he is in the Bible. He believes in a ban as much as he believes in God. But he deserves everything he gets on this from the Biden team.

    The polls are beginning to turn against him. They could very easily turn back - I suspect they will as Biden goes campaigning and starts to look very old - but it will be interesting to see how Trump reacts should the idea he is a loser start to gain traction.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 489
    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

  • FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,366
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    edited April 9
    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    It is especially if your parents don't have money. Don't see any interest in anyone wanting to fix the problem though, certainly not the poplitician's.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    malcolmg said:

    It is especially if your parents don't have money. Don't see any interest in anyone wanting to fix the problem though, certainly not the poplitician's.

    I know it's just a typo, but I like "popliticians" - nice portmanteau for populist politicians.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 9
    Rishi sticking up for Sir Keir. The Adidas Samba look will start to be re-evaluated

    I don’t care what your politics are, no MP should be harassed at their own home.

    We cannot and will not tolerate this.


    https://x.com/rishisunak/status/1777709576894259285?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    edited April 9
    Well Alan Bates appears to have had rather a good day in front of the PO Inquiry. Some of the letters he exchanged with senior people involved appear to be utterly astonishing, in light of what we now know they all knew at the time.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 489
    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    In reality, Trump is about as interested in abortion as he is in the Bible. He believes in a ban as much as he believes in God. But he deserves everything he gets on this from the Biden team.

    The polls are beginning to turn against him. They could very easily turn back - I suspect they will as Biden goes campaigning and starts to look very old - but it will be interesting to see how Trump reacts should the idea he is a loser start to gain traction.

    In the unlikely event that Trump loses the election by a large margin - say 60-40 for the sake of argument - I would expect Trump to convince himself and most of the 40 that the ballot boxes had been stuffed against him and the election was rigged.

    So there's no fear of the humiliation of a heavy defeat, because that's an impossible event in his reality bubble.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    edited April 9

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    The election or otherwise of a president, has nothing to do with an issue that is reserved to the individual States themselves.

    Yes, Mr Cameron is doing a very good job of British diplomacy, speaking to both sides in the US today to try and unlock more Ukraine aid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,861
    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    The discussion about the infinity of shades of meaning to be found in prepositions (in this case 'from') is entirely about words and not about facts or things, and is of interest only to philology.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    You were reading 201 page novels at age 3? Now that is impressive.

    Things must have loosened up though, in libraryland, as even my 20 month old has his own library card, although less advanced reading habits than you had.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    Well the best thing she can do is tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, with her hand on that bible she used to read from as an Anglican priest.

    She can then accept her fate, for the actions that led to several wrongful imprisonments, several divorces, and several suicides, according to the law of the land.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    algarkirk said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    The discussion about the infinity of shades of meaning to be found in prepositions (in this case 'from') is entirely about words and not about facts or things, and is of interest only to philology.
    Don't know of @philology, must have been a poster from before my time :wink:
    I do recall a Philip who used to post who liked long pointless arguments over meanings of things, but must be a different person I guess.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,067
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    You were reading 201 page novels at age 3? Now that is impressive.

    Things must have loosened up though, in libraryland, as even my 20 month old has his own library card, although less advanced reading habits than you had.
    This is in danger of getting a bit 4 Yorkshire Men

    "Right. My son had a library card two months before he was born, was reading the original Russian of War & Peace..."
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    CatMan said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    You were reading 201 page novels at age 3? Now that is impressive.

    Things must have loosened up though, in libraryland, as even my 20 month old has his own library card, although less advanced reading habits than you had.
    This is in danger of getting a bit 4 Yorkshire Men

    "Right. My son had a library card two months before he was born, was reading the original Russian of War & Peace..."
    Luxury!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,861
    The extremes debate about abortion silences the much more interesting one. Neither science nor religion nor the stuff of rival pressure groups offer any useful information about whether, when and by whose decision abortion should be lawful or unlawful on account of the rights, or lack of them, of the unborn. The silence is deafening.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    In reality, Trump is about as interested in abortion as he is in the Bible. He believes in a ban as much as he believes in God. But he deserves everything he gets on this from the Biden team.

    The polls are beginning to turn against him. They could very easily turn back - I suspect they will as Biden goes campaigning and starts to look very old - but it will be interesting to see how Trump reacts should the idea he is a loser start to gain traction.

    Have you seen Trump recently? He looks older than Biden (and is only three years his junior in any case)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,390

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    It's almost like somebody wrote an article about how biopolitics - the power of the state over the body - will be an increasingly important battleground in 2020's politics.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/04/07/transhumanism/

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    Selebian said:

    CatMan said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    You were reading 201 page novels at age 3? Now that is impressive.

    Things must have loosened up though, in libraryland, as even my 20 month old has his own library card, although less advanced reading habits than you had.
    This is in danger of getting a bit 4 Yorkshire Men

    "Right. My son had a library card two months before he was born, was reading the original Russian of War & Peace..."
    Luxury!
    Unfortunately, that's the way things are heading. Certainly for 4 Surreyfolk and 4 Croydon People and so on.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,861

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    How long do you think Cameron and Osborne would have been allowed to remain in charge of Brexit negotiations by the ERG?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    Well the best thing she can do is tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, with her hand on that bible she used to read from as an Anglican priest.

    She can then accept her fate, for the actions that led to several wrongful imprisonments, several divorces, and several suicides, according to the law of the land.
    If she knows what's good for her she will be preparing the waterworks a la La Sturgeon.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,366

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    A great philosopher said


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    edited April 9
    ...
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    Cameron himself was fairly crap, but just about good enough as a speaker to oil his way out of most of his idiot scrapes.

    The lack of talent on the Tory benches is down to years of CCHQ selection processes/criteria/shortlists. That's exacerbated by Boris, Truss and Sunak all selecting cabinets of their clique, further limiting the ministerial talent pool.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,449
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    Well the best thing she can do is tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, with her hand on that bible she used to read from as an Anglican priest.

    She can then accept her fate, for the actions that led to several wrongful imprisonments, several divorces, and several suicides, according to the law of the land.
    There remain two questions. The standard questions in this situation.

    Who knew what, and when did they know it?

    Who should have known what when, and why didn't they?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    CatMan said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    You were reading 201 page novels at age 3? Now that is impressive.

    Things must have loosened up though, in libraryland, as even my 20 month old has his own library card, although less advanced reading habits than you had.
    This is in danger of getting a bit 4 Yorkshire Men

    "Right. My son had a library card two months before he was born, was reading the original Russian of War & Peace..."
    Luxury!
    Unfortunately, that's the way things are heading. Certainly for 4 Surreyfolk and 4 Croydon People and so on.
    We're relatively lucky round here. We got out of the habit during Covid, but library trips have proved very popular with my youngest two (pre-school). We're not exactly short of books, but they still like to borrow ones they haven't seen before - well, elder of the two does, youngest isn't really expressing detailed opinions yet :smile:

    Unfortunately the library opening times means my eldest (at school) doesn't get there very often.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,109

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,861

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    How long do you think Cameron and Osborne would have been allowed to remain in charge of Brexit negotiations by the ERG?
    Cameron was PM, not the ERG. If they had had the numbers to oust him and did so, then it would their responsibility. Most Tory MPs were centrists.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    Aged three, you read a novel about a future Shadow Cabinet?
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 489
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    Oh I agree completely.

    I was just blinded for a moment by the totally unexpected, brief glimmer of competence from the tory party 🤣🤣🤣
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 22,366
    edited April 9
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage is only relevant once you're on the ladder.

    The cost of getting a deposit to get onto the ladder is the bigger barrier.

    10% at 2x income is easier than 10% at 8x income.

    Totally agree that we need millions of extra homes, not a few hundred thousand extra.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
    If there’s any justice in this world, she’ll be eating prison food in a couple of years’ time.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    So you’re not a bona fide Yorkshireman like me?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
    If there’s any justice in this world, she’ll be eating prison food in a couple of years’ time.
    Plus a massive fine.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586
    edited April 9
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
    If there’s any justice in this world, she’ll be eating prison food in a couple of years’ time.
    She should be bankrupt with her pension (beyond the state minimum) being used to repay some of the costs and then given a few years of prison food.

    As the Bible says - do unto others as you would have done to yourself and she allowed innocent people to be bankrupted even after she had been told the reality
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    I haven't been following the PO today but I wonder if the main case against Paula Vennells is sloppiness or laziness - she seems particularly deferential to legal or counsel advice.

    So if PO lawyers advised her to send very aggressive letter to claimants as part of their strategy to scare them off and/or bankrupt them I can see her meekly going along with it, even if it's something she'd never choose to write that way herself independently.

    Basically, it's a strength of character issue.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    A great philosopher said

    Naughty Naughty, very naughty.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
    If there’s any justice in this world, she’ll be eating prison food in a couple of years’ time.
    Considering the list of the guilty over the last 25 years, it would be grossly unfair if Vennalls is the single scapegoat. Smug and venal may sum her up, but the list of smug and venal Post Office Managers and associated politicians is a long one.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    A great philosopher said

    Naughty Naughty, very naughty.
    That was what he wrote!

    He definitely didn’t write “Es are good” though ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    However bad they are, it could be worse.
    https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1777412630979723624
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586
    edited April 9

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
    If there’s any justice in this world, she’ll be eating prison food in a couple of years’ time.
    Considering the list of the guilty over the last 25 years, it would be grossly unfair if Vennalls is the single scapegoat. Smug and venal may sum her up, but the list of smug and venal Post Office Managers and associated politicians is a long one.
    Oh she shouldn’t be the only person held responsible - but she’s a figure head for everything that went wrong and it’s now known that she knew for 3 years there were issues but kept on ignoring them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177

    This ad is a great reminder that politics matters, that voters have a choice about what rules they want to live under, and that bad choices have consequences. Like @TSE I think voters won't vote for the man who did this.

    And unashamedly celebrates it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    edited April 9

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Building millions of houses is necessary, but not sufficient.

    There needs to be a post-WWII-scale effort that includes cheap rental and purchase options, likely modern pre-fab construction, and with loans underwritten by government.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Sandpit said:

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.

    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Good point.

    The religious hypocrisy is one of the things that annoys me most - the pious behaviour when she was presiding over this shitshow.
    #NU10K thinking

    She had a *difficult* and *strenuous* job. Furrows brow. She bore so much responsibility in this complex and difficult job. It was so hard on her (and her family)

    That’s the glossy magazine article you will be reading in a couple of years time.

    What do you notice?
    If there’s any justice in this world, she’ll be eating prison food in a couple of years’ time.
    Considering the list of the guilty over the last 25 years, it would be grossly unfair if Vennalls is the single scapegoat. Smug and venal may sum her up, but the list of smug and venal Post Office Managers and associated politicians is a long one.
    Quite agree, although she’s the highest profile. Although that may change when we get a few of her ‘co-conspirators’ on the stand.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Got to say if you don’t end up in a house you own outright by the time you retire retirement is very likely not a practical option
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    edited April 9
    Sandpit said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    The election or otherwise of a president, has nothing to do with an issue that is reserved to the individual States themselves.

    Yes, Mr Cameron is doing a very good job of British diplomacy, speaking to both sides in the US today to try and unlock more Ukraine aid.
    Abortion is not "reserved to the states", as the awful Dobbs ruling made quite clear, even if allows individual states to make decisions on it.
    Why otherwise would the GOP still be talking about legislating for a federal nationwide ban ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Sandpit said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    The election or otherwise of a president, has nothing to do with an issue that is reserved to the individual States themselves.

    Yes, Mr Cameron is doing a very good job of British diplomacy, speaking to both sides in the US today to try and unlock more Ukraine aid.
    But that's not quite true.

    If it was solely reserved for individual states, then I would support it. But already you've had a State Court in Texas attempt to impose a nationwide ban on an FDA approved drug. Not a Texas ban, but a nationwide one.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    edited April 9

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    So you’re not a bona fide Yorkshireman like me?
    A (Yorkshire born, Pakistani ancestry) friend did tell me, during the Rafiq scandal, that I'd never be able to play for Yorkshire CCC. Due to being insufficiently racist. And also fairly crap at cricket. :wink:

    The former was apparently more of a bar than the latter though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    So you’re not a bona fide Yorkshireman like me?
    A (Yorkshire born, Pakistani ancestry) friend did tell me, during the Rafiq scandal, that I'd never be able to play for Yorkshire CCC. Due to being insufficiently racist. And also fairly crap at cricket. :wink:
    You could have played for a really first class county though, Essex.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    How long do you think Cameron and Osborne would have been allowed to remain in charge of Brexit negotiations by the ERG?
    Cameron was PM, not the ERG. If they had had the numbers to oust him and did so, then it would their responsibility. Most Tory MPs were centrists.
    I don't think you could have someone who led the losing side running negotiations for a policy he did not advocate.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Saw on previous thread, that (some) LibDem PBers are still defending their Dire Leader re: the PO Scandal.

    Mostly (it seems) on grounds that when he received his initial letter from Alan Bates, he'd only been the responsible (in one sense anyway) minister for about 15 minutes or thereabouts.

    Which raises the question - so what did Ed Davey do re: the PO Scandal AFTERWARDS during the rest of his time in office? OR when he left HMG?

    Answer seems to be - diddly squat. OR is that unfair to ED?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    edited April 9

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    So you’re not a bona fide Yorkshireman like me?
    A (Yorkshire born, Pakistani ancestry) friend did tell me, during the Rafiq scandal, that I'd never be able to play for Yorkshire CCC. Due to being insufficiently racist. And also fairly crap at cricket. :wink:
    You could have played for a really first class county though, Essex.
    Yeah. I mean, even Darren Gough managed to play for the greatest team in the end :smiley:

    (I was brought up on visits to the County Ground - mostly paid visits, but my dad's employer had a space in one of the hospitality tents for a while and few clients were interested, so I even got to join the prawn sandwich brigade, as it were, at times). Also saw the England U19s beat Australia U19s one summer - with many of the players that later regained the ashes in 2005.)

    ETA: I've not been to Headingley. My heart is still very much with Essex CCC, even if I've adopted Yorkshire in many other ways.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 489
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    However bad they are, it could be worse.
    https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1777412630979723624
    Wow ... we don't need deep fakes if the real people say something so mind numbingly stupid... blatant Russian propaganda either way.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    How long do you think Cameron and Osborne would have been allowed to remain in charge of Brexit negotiations by the ERG?
    Cameron was PM, not the ERG. If they had had the numbers to oust him and did so, then it would their responsibility. Most Tory MPs were centrists.
    I don't think you could have someone who led the losing side running negotiations for a policy he did not advocate.

    Though one could say that having no plans in place if the referendum was lost was plain irresponsible and buggering off within 24 hours was plain dereliction of duty.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,903
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Building millions of houses is necessary, but not sufficient.

    There needs to be a post-WWII-scale effort that includes cheap rental and purchase options, likely modern pre-fab construction, and with loans underwritten by government.
    It seems that there is a need way beyond what the immigration figures suggest. As a nation we're definitely not breeding like rabbits.

    I suspect that there are a huge number of people living in the UK that aren't counted in the measures used. In London it's often hard to hear English being spoken, and many tradespeople (those that actually do the jobs) don't speak English at all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177

    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    'This nonsense' - PB, you mean? :open_mouth:

    ETA: To be honest, I'd be quite impressed if they're reading anything at nursery.
    I had my first library card age 3 (you were supposed to be 5). The first book I took out was Little Grey Men by BB.

    My life, right there, in a nustshell...
    The wonder of the world,
    The beauty and the power,
    The shapes of things,
    Their colours, lights and shades,
    These I saw.
    Look ye also while life lasts.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,282
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    The election or otherwise of a president, has nothing to do with an issue that is reserved to the individual States themselves.

    Yes, Mr Cameron is doing a very good job of British diplomacy, speaking to both sides in the US today to try and unlock more Ukraine aid.
    But that's not quite true.

    If it was solely reserved for individual states, then I would support it. But already you've had a State Court in Texas attempt to impose a nationwide ban on an FDA approved drug. Not a Texas ban, but a nationwide one.
    That's where the federal courts can step in and slap them down.

    For most of our lifetimes we've had an abortion ban in part of the UK. Any American who is serious about moving beyond the culture wars should support making it a question for the states.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    edited April 9

    In reality, Trump is about as interested in abortion as he is in the Bible. He believes in a ban as much as he believes in God. But he deserves everything he gets on this from the Biden team.

    The polls are beginning to turn against him. They could very easily turn back - I suspect they will as Biden goes campaigning and starts to look very old - but it will be interesting to see how Trump reacts should the idea he is a loser start to gain traction.

    Have you seen Trump recently? He looks older than Biden (and is only three years his junior in any case)

    I am firmly in the Biden is getting on, Trump is going mad camp. He looks very old and gives every impression of not being all there mentally. But it seems he has a free pass on it. The issue is Biden. It makes no sense to me but it is what it is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    The election or otherwise of a president, has nothing to do with an issue that is reserved to the individual States themselves.

    Yes, Mr Cameron is doing a very good job of British diplomacy, speaking to both sides in the US today to try and unlock more Ukraine aid.
    But that's not quite true.

    If it was solely reserved for individual states, then I would support it. But already you've had a State Court in Texas attempt to impose a nationwide ban on an FDA approved drug. Not a Texas ban, but a nationwide one.
    It's completely untrue.

    If it were "reserved to the individual States" that would be constitutional fact, and your (or anyone else's) support or otherwise would be irrelevant.

    What the Dobbs ruling did was to say that women have no constitutionally protected right to choose to have an abortion.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Omnium said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Building millions of houses is necessary, but not sufficient.

    There needs to be a post-WWII-scale effort that includes cheap rental and purchase options, likely modern pre-fab construction, and with loans underwritten by government.
    It seems that there is a need way beyond what the immigration figures suggest. As a nation we're definitely not breeding like rabbits.

    I suspect that there are a huge number of people living in the UK that aren't counted in the measures used. In London it's often hard to hear English being spoken, and many tradespeople (those that actually do the jobs) don't speak English at all.
    You must live in a different London to me. Unless you’re in South Ken near the Lycée.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,903
    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Building millions of houses is necessary, but not sufficient.

    There needs to be a post-WWII-scale effort that includes cheap rental and purchase options, likely modern pre-fab construction, and with loans underwritten by government.
    It seems that there is a need way beyond what the immigration figures suggest. As a nation we're definitely not breeding like rabbits.

    I suspect that there are a huge number of people living in the UK that aren't counted in the measures used. In London it's often hard to hear English being spoken, and many tradespeople (those that actually do the jobs) don't speak English at all.
    You must live in a different London to me. Unless you’re in South Ken near the Lycée.
    Similar - Little Venice
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited April 9
    On Thread

    When I read the book and watched the original series of "The Handmaid's Tale", despite the fine book/series that it is, the only point where I had really had to suspend belief was the necessity to dismiss the implausibility that a small covert group of extremists could somehow stage a coup d'etat and take control of the USA by force.

    Unfortunately, if Margaret Attwood were writing the book today, she would now have available to her a much more plausible scenario that led saw the accession to power of extremists who were able to overturn democratic institutions once in power. All the ingredients are there - the new populist politics that has emerged on the back of social media and the emergence of a figure able to exploit them, the luck of being faced with a geriatric opponent, Trump's willingness to sacrifice democratic norms if he gets the chance, the inability of his party to challenge him given the importance of his patronage and a pliant Supreme Court that he will be able to pack even further to do his bidding.

    An awful lot depends on TSE being right about November, else fact might come to resemble fiction.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    He's from Oldham.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,390

    FPT

    Bloody hell, Vennells sent an appalling letter to Alan Bates which has just been read out. I'm something of a dull old centrist, but I'd be willing to bring back hanging for this woman, she's an absolute disgrace.


    Same but I actually to want her to live a long life dealing with the suffering she has caused to so many. She's a fucking priest, she's meant to be the best of humanity.
    I think the Tories will have a lot of questions to answer about giving her a CBE and giving her a cabinet office job
    Vennells has been a disappointment to all concerned.

    We had intended you to be
    The next Archbishop but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.

    I’ve posted this before, but I’ll post it again; I feel a little sorry for Paula Vennels and her colleagues. If they answer honestly on the stand various lawyers are going to tear them to bits. If they try and dodge, hide behind some avoidance of incriminating themselves something similar is going to happen, and the Chairman’s report is going to be excoriating.

    I’m only a little sorry though, after what they appear to have done to others.
    A great philosopher said


    A predominantly blue scene in a room overlooking an ocean with a full-length window? Could it possibly be a Michael Mann film?

    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b0c67beb-c216-42c1-a22b-70e567b5949e

    Why yes. Yes it could. :)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,614
    BBC reporting landmark case in Michigan where the parents of a school shooter are jailed
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    They don’t appear to have found one to oppose Priti Patel yet! I wonder why!
    Labour have.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    The solution to the GOP problem is really quite obvious. Women, as second class citizens, shouldn’t be able to vote.

    Just as well logic isn’t their strong point.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    How long do you think Cameron and Osborne would have been allowed to remain in charge of Brexit negotiations by the ERG?
    Cameron was PM, not the ERG. If they had had the numbers to oust him and did so, then it would their responsibility. Most Tory MPs were centrists.
    I don't think you could have someone who led the losing side running negotiations for a policy he did not advocate.

    Though one could say that having no plans in place if the referendum was lost was plain irresponsible and buggering off within 24 hours was plain dereliction of duty.
    Perhaps he believed the Leave side who said it would be the easiest trade deal in history and no deal was Project Fear bollocks.

    FWIW - I know for a fact that Gove and Johnson spent 21st of June to 23rd of June 2016 trying to ensure there wasn't a vote of confidence against Dave is Remain won.

    There were enough of the ERG ready to trigger a confidence vote.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,449
    Omnium said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Building millions of houses is necessary, but not sufficient.

    There needs to be a post-WWII-scale effort that includes cheap rental and purchase options, likely modern pre-fab construction, and with loans underwritten by government.
    It seems that there is a need way beyond what the immigration figures suggest. As a nation we're definitely not breeding like rabbits.

    I suspect that there are a huge number of people living in the UK that aren't counted in the measures used. In London it's often hard to hear English being spoken, and many tradespeople (those that actually do the jobs) don't speak English at all.
    Also (and probably more important) just that there's a generation of homeowners who don't want to downsize (they've spent decades getting their home and garden 'just right') and are under no particular pressure to. It may mean one or two people rattling round in a family sized house, but they don't want to get rid of stuff and they like the idea that children and grandchildren will come to stay. (They probably won't, and Premier Inns are cheap and ubiquitous, but that's not really the point.)

    And on one hand, best of luck to them. There comes a moment when a family house like that becomes unmanageable, and the best time to downsize is a bit before that.

    But there's an important caveat. That is fine, if and only if, the generations below also have access to reasonably-priced forever family homes where and when they need them. That doesn't have to mean the sort of things developers tend to build right now; I'd go for copying and pasting Winsdor Gardens from the Paddington movies as well. To the extent that Britain is richer now than in generations past, there's no reason (apart from choices we make) why nice places to live should be in short supply. It's one of the easier problems we have to solve.

    However, hogging the nice places to live while refusing to allow any more to be built just isn't on.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    edited April 9

    OT: some suggest the voting gap* in Northern Ireland between Nationalist voters and Nationalist voters who would voter for unification is down to abortion rights.

    That is how strong it is.

    *During the PIRA campaign, a non trivial chunk of SF voters were against unification. That is, supporters of a party dedicated to using armed violence to achieve unification, were against unification.

    A non-trivial chunk of SF voters were also duplicates. I wonder what that % is now :wink: .

    Speaking, not that relevantly, of duplicates & Russian dolls:
    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=589325435147039
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,468
    edited April 9
    DavidL said:

    The solution to the GOP problem is really quite obvious. Women, as second class citizens, shouldn’t be able to vote.

    Just as well logic isn’t their strong point.

    Oh, some of them are suggesting that already! E.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/21/politics/john-gibbs-womens-suffrage-19th-amendment-kfile/index.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Apologies if mentioned last week but the Blackpool South by election is taking place 2nd of May.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,240

    Saw on previous thread, that (some) LibDem PBers are still defending their Dire Leader re: the PO Scandal.

    Mostly (it seems) on grounds that when he received his initial letter from Alan Bates, he'd only been the responsible (in one sense anyway) minister for about 15 minutes or thereabouts.

    Which raises the question - so what did Ed Davey do re: the PO Scandal AFTERWARDS during the rest of his time in office? OR when he left HMG?

    Answer seems to be - diddly squat. OR is that unfair to ED?

    The letters are pretty bad for Ed Davey although interestingly Alan Bates seemed somewhat uncomfortable recalling his dealings with the then Minister.

    Davey's main point was that as a supposedly independent business, it rather than the government was responsible for what the business does. Bates was having none of that as the government was and is the sole shareholder. I don't think anyone can disagree, but I have a bad feeling I would have taken the same line as Davey in his shoes.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Omnium said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Earlier today, my fellow octogenarian, Big G from N.Wales, posted that the best thing to have in one's latter years was health, and he's unquestionably right.
    I wish I could do the things I could do two years ago, let alone 10 or 20! And as for 50 years ago: words fail me!
    I often agree with Malcolm, but this time I don't. It was easier to get a house 50 years ago; the price my wife and I paid for our first house was about three times my annual salary as a pharmacist; my eldest grandson, There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.a teacher, and his wife, another teacher, who have bought not such a nice house (not such a nice area anyway) have paid five times their combined annual salaries, and it's not so far from where we used to live. It's also at least twice the price of the house, his sister lives in; in Leeds
    There was a difference back in the day, but it wasn't quite as great as it is now.
    And my wife, and I, back in the day managed on my salary; she stayed at home and looked after me and the children. My grandson and his wife both need to work.

    Incidentally I was mentally reminiscing about politics back in the day and came to the conclusion that we had a lot, as far as the EU is concerned, to blame General de Gaulle for. If he had not vetoed our entry into the EEC back in the early 60's we'd have been in one the ground floor, rather than playing catch up in the 70's.

    One thing though OKC, it was much harder to get a mortgage back then. You had to have saved with them for years and they only gave strict limits re multiples , deposits etc. Price deifferentials are higher but I still think easier to get a house today , outside London and south east at least.
    You need a deposit today still. Harder to get a 10% deposit when prices are 8x income than it is to get a 10% deposit when prices are 2x income.

    Currently people need to save nearly a year's wages to get a deposit. Which takes many years of savings, decades for some people.
    We are not talking minimum wage are we and even at that it would get you >180K house which for most parts of the country would get you a decent house. Even in london where on here they are always saying 50K is poverty wage it gets you almost 500K.
    wages are more than 10 x what they were then so seems a wash to me
    Mr R rightly makes the point that 10% deposits need saving for, and on a £250k house …..normal, it seems in N Essex for a 2 bed …… that means saving £25,000.
    That’s not easy.
    Agree but nowadays they beg it off their parents.
    That's a problem is it not?

    I didn't, but it took many years of us both saving to get enough.

    Wages haven't kept up with house prices, if they had it would be a wash and not a problem, but they're down substantially which is a bad thing.

    It will take many years of house prices falls and/or wage inflation and stationary prices to restore balance.
    Back in the late 60’s I bought a house, and needed a loan to tide me over while I sold my first one. The bank manager said that he wasn’t sure about the price; £14,000 seemed a lot. We lived there 20 years, then moved to where we are now.
    I’ve just looked it up on Zoopla; it’s been sold again for £715,000
    Utter insanity. And wages aren't up fifty fold to compensate.

    Any correction to the market will take massive negative equity or rampant inflation. Or both.

    Easiest solution would be to not start here, but that's not an option.
    The cost of servicing a mortgage, is perhaps a better indicator than the headline house price, but the trend line has still been sharply one way since about 1992.

    The only solution is to build literally millions more houses.
    I'm not sure that simply building millions of houses will necessarily be a complete solution, though it might be desirable in and of itself if good houses are built.

    Where you live and the housing you live in is likely to be one of the major determinants of people's quality of life. So it follows that people will dedicate a large proportion of their income to maximising the quality of housing that they live in. So you might expect that a lot of people will always buy the most expensive housing they can afford, and so housing costs will still dominate personal expenditure.

    You might also consider restricting mortgage lending as a way of reducing the amount of money that is being used to bid up the price of housing. If you could also do something to make other investments a relatively better option for people then you would also reduce the amount of investment capital being poured into housing (and hopefully that investment capital would find a home somewhere that would increase productivity in the economy).

    It seems like you could end up with lower house prices, and more owner-occupiers, with the same housing stock that we have today. Though there are lots of other good reasons for building new houses.
    Building millions of houses is necessary, but not sufficient.

    There needs to be a post-WWII-scale effort that includes cheap rental and purchase options, likely modern pre-fab construction, and with loans underwritten by government.
    It seems that there is a need way beyond what the immigration figures suggest. As a nation we're definitely not breeding like rabbits.

    I suspect that there are a huge number of people living in the UK that aren't counted in the measures used. In London it's often hard to hear English being spoken, and many tradespeople (those that actually do the jobs) don't speak English at all.
    Oh, why can't the English learn to set
    A good example to people whose
    English is painful to your ears?
    The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
    There even are places where English completely
    Disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,903
    MattW said:

    isam said:

    Selebian said:

    Somewhere in the top ten.

    Missed the fun in the last chat, but I'm from North Yorkshire, while also (originally) from Essex.

    I just picked my sons up from play school, and when we got home read a football stars book. My eldest asked where Martin Odegaard was from, so I said ‘Norway’ as that’s the flag he was pointing at, and he said ‘but he lives in England?’

    Don’t tell me they’re reading this nonsense at Nursery!

    He's from Oldham.
    Seeing your post I realised I knew little about Oldham beyond the name and the football team being 'Athletic'. I still know very little having perused the wikipedia article, but a touch more. Along the way though there's this great photo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandK_Industrial_Revolution_1900.jpg), but 20% down on the wikipedia page.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    FF43 said:

    Saw on previous thread, that (some) LibDem PBers are still defending their Dire Leader re: the PO Scandal.

    Mostly (it seems) on grounds that when he received his initial letter from Alan Bates, he'd only been the responsible (in one sense anyway) minister for about 15 minutes or thereabouts.

    Which raises the question - so what did Ed Davey do re: the PO Scandal AFTERWARDS during the rest of his time in office? OR when he left HMG?

    Answer seems to be - diddly squat. OR is that unfair to ED?

    The letters are pretty bad for Ed Davey although interestingly Alan Bates seemed somewhat uncomfortable recalling his dealings with the then Minister.

    Davey's main point was that as a supposedly independent business, it rather than the government was responsible for what the business does. Bates was having none of that as the government was and is the sole shareholder. I don't think anyone can disagree, but I have a bad feeling I would have taken the same line as Davey in his shoes.
    It was the easy and, seemingly, safe option for him at the time. Most of the time that sort of approach will not blow up in your face, but you have to take it on the rare occasions it will.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The abortion laws in the US are appalling.

    I hope Trump doesn't win. Better hope Trump doesn't win. Not only will women be worse off, we will have a much much bigger and more direct russia problem on our borders.

    https://x.com/David_Cameron/status/1775976983203053788

    (Cameron makes Sunak look like a bumbling amateur in this video. I am not pro conservative, but this is an expert politician at work. Very professional - this is the kind of material the tories need. 10 people of that calibre to stand a chance)

    He’s on a different level - in rhetoric, confidence, maturity - from his front bench peers.
    It really highlights the lack of talent and competence caused by BJs cull in 2019. The populists that replaced them had nothing ... there is just nothing except grievance and emotion. But governance needs more. Let's get this straight: Cameron and his lot brought brutal ideologically driven austerity on the country.... but that is still better than the horror inflicted on the country by the popcons and brexit. Dear me.
    The absence of talent in the Tory ranks was started mainly by Cameron's absolute betrayal of trust in abandoning ship at exactly the moment it was essential he saw through the, entirely foreseeable, consequences of his own policies. The party has never recovered.
    How long do you think Cameron and Osborne would have been allowed to remain in charge of Brexit negotiations by the ERG?
    Cameron was PM, not the ERG. If they had had the numbers to oust him and did so, then it would their responsibility. Most Tory MPs were centrists.
    I don't think you could have someone who led the losing side running negotiations for a policy he did not advocate.

    Though one could say that having no plans in place if the referendum was lost was plain irresponsible and buggering off within 24 hours was plain dereliction of duty.
    Perhaps he believed the Leave side who said it would be the easiest trade deal in history and no deal was Project Fear bollocks.

    FWIW - I know for a fact that Gove and Johnson spent 21st of June to 23rd of June 2016 trying to ensure there wasn't a vote of confidence against Dave is Remain won.

    There were enough of the ERG ready to trigger a confidence vote.
    He just plain messed up. I really cant see how not having any plans in place if he lost the referendum is in any way defensible, Buggering off after 24 hours didnt cast him in a good light, his job was about the country not him.
This discussion has been closed.