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Can Reform outpoll the Tories with YouGov? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2 in General
Can Reform outpoll the Tories with YouGov? – politicalbetting.com

Reform UK reach another highest ever result in our voting intention this week, rising 1pt to 16%Con: 21% (+2 from 19-20 Mar)Lab: 40% (-4)Reform UK: 16% (+1)Lib Dem: 10% (+1)Green: 8% (=)SNP: 3% (=)https://t.co/mp0waUzBGD pic.twitter.com/6m0U6K6Rot

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,195
    Accepting as you say there is but a narrow window (and that this is also partly a bet on the date of the next general election) 4/1 corresponds to a 20 per cent chance so it might be worth a bet for those who believe there is a greater chance than that.

    Fortunately, Ladbrokes has made the corporate decision not to accept any more business from yours truly so I need not wear out too many grey cells pondering the question.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,195
    Tory faction plots ‘Truss-style’ leader if party loses general election
    The ‘Pop Con’ group wants a free-market, libertarian MP to replace Rishi Sunak, with Priti Patel, the current favourite

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-faction-plans-to-install-new-leader-if-they-lose-general-election-slgt6vg2f (£££)

    More evidence to be considered before wagering. I'm not even sure this is not a story spread by Priti Patel's enemies to discredit her with the Pop Con tag. 4-d chess played by 1-d minds.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,195
    British Army drones a ‘disaster’ and unable to fly in bad weather
    While the Hermes 450 flies over Gaza, the UK version shows everything wrong with Ministry of Defence procurement, critics say

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-army-drones-disaster-flying-israeli-technology-copy-swn5l5t0d (£££)

    Four decades of Tory defence cuts... Hold on, isn't Defence Secretary Grant Shapps said to be working on a leadership bid?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,239
    edited April 2
    Good morning.

    They could but I don’t think they will. The latest poll is R&W out yesterday with figures:

    Con 22%
    Lab 46%
    LibDem 10%
    Reform 14%
    Green 5%
    SNP 3%

    Labour lead 24%

    At a General Election a sufficient number of people return to tribal allegiance as to make it unlikely that Reform will out-poll the tories.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,813

    Marjorie Taylor Greene Press Release (Parody)
    @MTGrepp
    ·
    19m
    Donald Trump has picked me to be his VP. It’s time to Make America Great Again

    WHO’S READY ?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2

    British Army drones a ‘disaster’ and unable to fly in bad weather
    While the Hermes 450 flies over Gaza, the UK version shows everything wrong with Ministry of Defence procurement, critics say

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-army-drones-disaster-flying-israeli-technology-copy-swn5l5t0d (£££)

    Four decades of Tory defence cuts... Hold on, isn't Defence Secretary Grant Shapps said to be working on a leadership bid?

    The Zionist Aerial Surveillance Cock (Aid Workers for the killing of) was the opposite of a cut - it had an avalanche of cash thrown at it.

    The real catastrophic decision was letting the Army, and in particular the Royal Artillery, anywhere near the system. The procurement effort and the platform were both too technically complex for them to able to manage effectively. Even the RAF would have done a better job.

    Mark Francois, MP can fuck off and then fuck off again when he gets there.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,813
    I see the Guardian is running on Labour members like SKS.

    It was a Poll carried out in October 2023
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,234
    Mike Johnson just called January 6 insurrectionists “people who were just there and happened to be walking through the building"
    https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1775005462754402789
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,239

    I see the Guardian is running on Labour members like SKS.

    It was a Poll carried out in October 2023

    Can you explain your post? I don’t understand what it’s about or what it means.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,234
    edited April 2
    Heathener said:

    I see the Guardian is running on Labour members like SKS.

    It was a Poll carried out in October 2023

    Can you explain your post? I don’t understand what it’s about or what it means.
    BJO is complaining about the Guardian reporting a couple of private polls from last year, which Labour have just shared with them.
    .https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/01/four-in-five-labour-members-back-keir-starmer-showing-rout-of-the-corbynites

    He doesn't like the story, for obvious reasons.

    Tough.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,239
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    I see the Guardian is running on Labour members like SKS.

    It was a Poll carried out in October 2023

    Can you explain your post? I don’t understand what it’s about or what it means.
    BJO is complaining about the Guardian reporting a couple of private polls from last year, which Labour have just shared with them.
    .https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/01/four-in-five-labour-members-back-keir-starmer-showing-rout-of-the-corbynites

    He doesn't like the story, for obvious reasons.

    Tough.
    Oh I see. Thanks so much.

    It seems rather esoteric to be concerned about a story like that. I suspect we will have a lot of this from tories during the GE campaign: tories desperately trying to make a huge thing of something which 99.9999999999999999999% of the public couldn’t give a flying fig about.

    It’s a sure sign of their predicament.
  • Brendan Clark-Smith seems to have decided that giving attention to a poll which he says shows 1/5 Labour members don’t support SKS, is somehow a good thing for the Tory Party.

    How many people support Rishi Sunak, perhaps he could call an, what is it called these days, e something and we could find out?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,239
    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.
  • Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,406
    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    I think the electoral effect of floating voter sensitivity to Labour hard left is minuscule by now. Keir has already shot that fox. In fact he could probably pick up some ratings by promising a few more leftish things.

    Same quasi-equilibrium is now observable in the Tory vote too. I don’t think there’s much further voter leakage to come from fear of the Tory hard right, those voters have left already, which explains their focus on Reform talking points.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 204
    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    They could but I don’t think they will. The latest poll is R&W out yesterday with figures:

    Con 22%
    Lab 46%
    LibDem 10%
    Reform 14%
    Green 5%
    SNP 3%

    Labour lead 24%

    At a General Election a sufficient number of people return to tribal allegiance as to make it unlikely that Reform will out-poll the tories.

    They also just released two (for the tories) catastrophic MRP polls.


    https://www.bestforbritain.org/spring-2024-polling


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13258095/Reform-Party-cost-Tories-50-seats-Shock-study-Mail-shows-Conservatives-reduced-just-80-MPs-Labour-470.html

    There is one, and only one picture emerging further GE. Labour are looking at a landslide win. And the hard right/ brexiteer representation in parliament will be decimated
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,344
    edited April 2
    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    That does not - obviously - apply to Ashfield :smile: .

    That would also need Ashfield Independents on maybe 20-25%, with some having gone to Labour and a few to RefUK, a few Tories moving to AI, the Lib Dems completely missing - or with a graphic of half a foreshank to represent 0.9% or whatever, and a dotted 'maybe' line from AI to Wormwood Scrubs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898
    Good morning one and all; back to normal after the Easter weekend now.

    Are Reform actually putting up candidates in the local elections? I know they’ve got candidates lined up for the General Election next January (my view), but as we said here repeatedly, you do need some evidence of a ground game to make a difference when it comes to voting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,099
    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    There has to be a reasonable chance that the Tories will recover some of those who have gone non voting and some of those who have gone Reform before the election but there is a risk that the numbers who have moved to Labour will increase, especially if the Tories go looking for the Reform dissenters.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,878
    edited April 2
    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    The Lib Dem vote/seats might be the most interesting story of election night. I'm going to adjust my drinking game rules accordingly.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,344
    Reflecting on @NickPalmer 's piece on Labour List, I think what he was laying out was a route to try and let Labour replace the Tories as "the natural party of Government", which will depend on a biggish open-sided tent based on the centre-left, with the margins clearly seen to be the margins.

    IMO that was what the Conservatives had the opportunity to create post-Brexit post-creation of the Red Wall with a focus on the moderate centre-right, but they flunked it and went bananas, then stabbed the Red Wall in the front as if they were Mack the Knife, and went running back to circle the wagons around a few bits of the South-East.

    Can Labour do it? Time will tell.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,029
    ...
    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    I find Tory to LD very odd particularly in the light of recent by elections. If this makes any sense, and colour me skeptical, Tories should gain heart from DKs and Reform switchers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,478

    British Army drones a ‘disaster’ and unable to fly in bad weather
    While the Hermes 450 flies over Gaza, the UK version shows everything wrong with Ministry of Defence procurement, critics say

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-army-drones-disaster-flying-israeli-technology-copy-swn5l5t0d (£££)

    Four decades of Tory defence cuts... Hold on, isn't Defence Secretary Grant Shapps said to be working on a leadership bid?

    The Ukrainians do seem to have good capability. They just droned an oil refinery and shaped manufacturing plant in Tartartan 1200 miles from Ukraine.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1775041259712766231?t=6eOiFm-ZWoAzIuwYDpgzwA&s=19
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898
    Will those of us on the left be metaphorically licking our lips over the corpse of conservative local government on May 3?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,478
    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    Sorry, should have credited the source of the graphic:

    https://x.com/MarwanData/status/1774836758162657693?t=MuN8NWLW90EeQv7bkGI_mg&s=09
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,344
    edited April 2
    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    I think the electoral effect of floating voter sensitivity to Labour hard left is minuscule by now. Keir has already shot that fox. In fact he could probably pick up some ratings by promising a few more leftish things.

    Same quasi-equilibrium is now observable in the Tory vote too. I don’t think there’s much further voter leakage to come from fear of the Tory hard right, those voters have left already, which explains their focus on Reform talking points.
    I'm not convinced that Keir *has* shot that fox. He might have put it under a temporarily soundproof barrel.

    The Socialist Campaign Group membership is still 31 or 35 if you include suspendees. In 2015 that was under 10.

    There are plenty of well-ensconced nutters (perhaps that should be "headbangers"). I think one determinant may be the balance between bees in bonnets and wider loyalty.

    And I have no idea of the mix of current candidates who may be elected in any putative landslide.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,489

    Good morning one and all; back to normal after the Easter weekend now.

    Are Reform actually putting up candidates in the local elections? I know they’ve got candidates lined up for the General Election next January (my view), but as we said here repeatedly, you do need some evidence of a ground game to make a difference when it comes to voting.

    Reform UK are standing in the London mayoral contest, the London Assembly top-up component and every London Assembly constituency, which is the local elections I get this year. Many other places, I don’t think they’ve had their deadlines for candidate nominations quite yet.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,029
    MattW said:

    Reflecting on @NickPalmer 's piece on Labour List, I think what he was laying out was a route to try and let Labour replace the Tories as "the natural party of Government", which will depend on a biggish open-sided tent based on the centre-left, with the margins clearly seen to be the margins.

    IMO that was what the Conservatives had the opportunity to create post-Brexit post-creation of the Red Wall with a focus on the moderate centre-right, but they flunked it and went bananas, then stabbed the Red Wall in the front as if they were Mack the Knife, and went running back to circle the wagons around a few bits of the South-East.

    Can Labour do it? Time will tell.

    Isn't politics cyclical? It's just that the Tory cycle on average lasts twice as long as Labour's.

    Get rid of FPTP and the cycle stops.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,406
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    I think the electoral effect of floating voter sensitivity to Labour hard left is minuscule by now. Keir has already shot that fox. In fact he could probably pick up some ratings by promising a few more leftish things.

    Same quasi-equilibrium is now observable in the Tory vote too. I don’t think there’s much further voter leakage to come from fear of the Tory hard right, those voters have left already, which explains their focus on Reform talking points.
    I'm not convinced that Keir *has* shot that fox. He might have put it under a temporarily soundproof barrel.

    The Socialist Campaign Group membership is still 31 or 35 if you include suspendees. In 2015 that was under 10.

    There are plenty of well-ensconced nutters (perhaps that should be "headbangers"). I think one determinant may be the balance between bees in bonnets and wider loyalty.

    And I have no idea of the mix of current candidates who may be elected in any putative landslide.
    He’s shot that fox with public opinion for this general election. That was the context of the comment. Of course he’s not driven out the hard left for good.
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016
    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    Interesting no discernable Lib Dem leakage to the Greens.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,489
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    There has to be a reasonable chance that the Tories will recover some of those who have gone non voting and some of those who have gone Reform before the election but there is a risk that the numbers who have moved to Labour will increase, especially if the Tories go looking for the Reform dissenters.
    Anything could happen. Yes, there’s a chance that non-voters and Reform will go back to the Tories, but equally there’s a chance that more Tory voters will desert them. I would be suspicious of anyone making a firm prediction on that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016
    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,029
    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,810

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016
    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl
  • malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    You well Malcolm?
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016
    The Met - Swastikas need to be taken in context

    A Metropolitan Police officer has sparked fury after telling a Jewish woman that swastikas “need to be taken in context” at a pro-Palestine rally. What other context could there be for a swastika at a pro Hamas march ?

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/outrage-after-met-police-officer-says-swastikas-need-to-be-taken-in-context-at-pro-palestine-march/ar-BB1kTGhy?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=8e8071965079413683638f624ded12a4&ei=32
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    Nigelb said:

    Mike Johnson just called January 6 insurrectionists “people who were just there and happened to be walking through the building"
    https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1775005462754402789

    Man's such a dumbarse he can't even read a calendar. He's a day late with his April Fool.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 906
    edited April 2
    Taz said:

    The Met - Swastikas need to be taken in context

    A Metropolitan Police officer has sparked fury after telling a Jewish woman that swastikas “need to be taken in context” at a pro-Palestine rally. What other context could there be for a swastika at a pro Hamas march ?

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/outrage-after-met-police-officer-says-swastikas-need-to-be-taken-in-context-at-pro-palestine-march/ar-BB1kTGhy?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=8e8071965079413683638f624ded12a4&ei=32

    I’m sure the free speech brigade will jump on the cop’s right to speak, right?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,406
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    A centaur? That’s quite the image.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    No. Much of the poll rating is the more extreme Tories telling pollsters that as a protest, hoping to pull their party rightwards. Whether they follow through in a GE is far from certain.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,191
    edited April 2

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    They could but I don’t think they will. The latest poll is R&W out yesterday with figures:

    Con 22%
    Lab 46%
    LibDem 10%
    Reform 14%
    Green 5%
    SNP 3%

    Labour lead 24%

    At a General Election a sufficient number of people return to tribal allegiance as to make it unlikely that Reform will out-poll the tories.

    They also just released two (for the tories) catastrophic MRP polls.


    https://www.bestforbritain.org/spring-2024-polling


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13258095/Reform-Party-cost-Tories-50-seats-Shock-study-Mail-shows-Conservatives-reduced-just-80-MPs-Labour-470.html

    There is one, and only one picture emerging further GE. Labour are looking at a landslide win. And the hard right/ brexiteer representation in parliament will be decimated
    Punishing the Tories for Brexit - not simply Brexit, but their damaging, self-defeating Brexit, and for their obsession with it while everything else went to the dogs, as well as for Johnson and for Truss and for the corruption and incompetence and lies and all the rest, is what the next GE is for...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    TimS said:

    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    A centaur? That’s quite the image.
    When it comes to certain topics, the centaur cannot hold.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,406
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    A centaur? That’s quite the image.
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    Interesting no discernable Lib Dem leakage to the Greens.
    Given much of the 2019 LD vote was “diehard remainers”, often in the wrong areas, this does seem a bit counterintuitive as you’d expect that voter bloc to be scattered to the four winds.

    The Lib Dem numbers seem to be based on a particularly low polling result for them. I’m sure there’s more Tory leakage there, as well as some tactical voters from Labour and Green come the election.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,335

    ...

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    I find Tory to LD very odd particularly in the light of recent by elections. If this makes any sense, and colour me skeptical, Tories should gain heart from DKs and Reform switchers.
    Been a while since we've had a by election in a sufficiently leafy or rural locale. The two that were unambiguously Lib Dem-able in the post-Boris era (Tiverton and Somerton) were routine Lib Dem gains.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 204
    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,344
    edited April 2
    Taz said:

    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl

    I was about to comment on that. There is a already a good range of insulin pumps available, including disposable ones that are used for a week or so and thrown away.

    A practical closed circuit (ie no need for separate blood glucose testing, and constant management decisions) insulin pump has been the holy grail since the late 1990s. It should be revolutionary, and self-funding through reducing later complications.

    That this is the criteria shows how far we have already come. A number of 7.5% used to be considered pretty good.

    For context, running at a HBA1c (approx a long term BG average over the last 3 months) of 7% rather than 9% reduces the occurrence a whole range of complications (eg serious ... eyesight deterioration, heart problems, circulation issues and more etc) by 50-75%.

    Nice recommends its use for those with type 1 who are in certain categories, including children and under-18s, pregnant women, and those with a HbA1c reading - a way of recording long-term blood sugar levels - of 58 mmol/mol, or 7.5%, or higher.

    I did enjoy this:
    NHS England diabetes clinical director Dr Clare Hambling said the technology "holds the power to redefine the lives" of people with type 1 diabetes.

    She added: "Type 1 diabetes is an easily missed diagnosis, so if you are concerned about symptoms - the four 'T's - going to the toilet, passing urine more frequently, with thirst, feeling tired and getting thinner, please come forward for support."


    Easily missed until you turn up in an ambulance soon afterwards.

    I don't see much 'privatisation', unless you mean the type of nutjobs who were going for Jeremy Hunt in the years 2010-2015 roughly. The "Dr Eoin Clarke" types (who was a Doctor of the History of Irish Feminism who chracteristically never told anyone but put Dr in his handle).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,478
    Taz said:

    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl

    I am not sure what point you are trying to make about the private sector, as the NHS has never manufactured medicines or devices itself.

    The NHS is leading the world in rolling out these closed loop systems for type 1 diabetics though. In part because the outlay in initial cost pays off in long term savings in complications. This is a very sensible example of long term health investment.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,473
    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    They could but I don’t think they will. The latest poll is R&W out yesterday with figures:

    Con 22%
    Lab 46%
    LibDem 10%
    Reform 14%
    Green 5%
    SNP 3%

    Labour lead 24%

    At a General Election a sufficient number of people return to tribal allegiance as to make it unlikely that Reform will out-poll the tories.

    They also just released two (for the tories) catastrophic MRP polls.


    https://www.bestforbritain.org/spring-2024-polling


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13258095/Reform-Party-cost-Tories-50-seats-Shock-study-Mail-shows-Conservatives-reduced-just-80-MPs-Labour-470.html

    There is one, and only one picture emerging further GE. Labour are looking at a landslide win. And the hard right/ brexiteer representation in parliament will be decimated
    Punishing the Tories for Brexit - not simply Brexit, but their damaging, self-defeating Brexit, and for their obsession with it while everything else went to the dogs, as well as for Johnson and for Truss and for the corruption and incompetence and lies and all the rest, is what the next GE is for...
    Elections are won from the centre. The Tories stopped understanding this because of Brexit. Talking head centrists thought, and still think, that Brexit was extremists and populists. It wasn't. Millions of centrists voted for it. There aren't enough populists and extremists to get to 52%.

    At the moment Labour get all this. The Tories don't. They have completely misunderstood the Brexit vote and its unique coalition that achieved it. When they get it again, Labour will be vulnerable once more to losing support as the left renews itself.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,000
    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Starting to wonder if Rishi’s shit politics is actually infectious and sweeping through the Tory party if they think this is somehow a negative for Labour.

    Keep it up lads.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,344

    ...

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    I find Tory to LD very odd particularly in the light of recent by elections. If this makes any sense, and colour me skeptical, Tories should gain heart from DKs and Reform switchers.
    Been a while since we've had a by election in a sufficiently leafy or rural locale. The two that were unambiguously Lib Dem-able in the post-Boris era (Tiverton and Somerton) were routine Lib Dem gains.
    Would this not be centred on Lib Dem target seats, such as eg around universities or Richmond Park?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,810

    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    You well Malcolm?
    Yes indeed , as fit as a butcher's dog.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,335

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    If Brexit erodes away to nothing, it will be because the British people didn't deserve a successful Brexit.

    Relevant to the header as well. The kind of people who who agree with the sentiments in that article aren't going to be squeezed back to the Conservatives by fear of Labour being worse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,234
    edited April 2
    How did Adidas not see this ?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68708981
    ..Adidas separately told the BBC that the German Football Association (DFB) and its partners had designed the numbers on the shirts.
    In a post on Twitter/X, the DFB said the shirt designs had been submitted to UEFA for review during the design process and that "none of the parties involved saw any proximity to Nazi symbolism".
    They added that an alternative design for the number 4 would be developed...
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl

    I am not sure what point you are trying to make about the private sector, as the NHS has never manufactured medicines or devices itself.

    The NHS is leading the world in rolling out these closed loop systems for type 1 diabetics though. In part because the outlay in initial cost pays off in long term savings in complications. This is a very sensible example of long term health investment.
    The point I am making is that this is great news.

    The point I am also making is the "no private involvement in the NHS brigade" so loud on social media, are wrong and have no understanding of medical device creation and manufacture.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,478
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl

    I was about to comment on that. There is a already a good range of insulin pumps available, including disposable ones that are used for a week or so and thrown away.

    A practical closed circuit (ie no need for separate blood glucose testing, and constant management decisions) insulin pump has been the holy grail since the late 1990s. It should be revolutionary, and self-funding through reducing later complications.

    That this is the criteria shows how far we have already come. A number of 7.5% used to be considered pretty good.

    For context, running at a HBA1c (approx a long term BG average over the last 3 months) of 7% rather than 9% reduces the occurrence a whole range of complications (eg serious ... eyesight deterioration, heart problems, circulation issues and more etc) by 50-75%.

    Nice recommends its use for those with type 1 who are in certain categories, including children and under-18s, pregnant women, and those with a HbA1c reading - a way of recording long-term blood sugar levels - of 58 mmol/mol, or 7.5%, or higher.

    I did enjoy this:
    NHS England diabetes clinical director Dr Clare Hambling said the technology "holds the power to redefine the lives" of people with type 1 diabetes.

    She added: "Type 1 diabetes is an easily missed diagnosis, so if you are concerned about symptoms - the four 'T's - going to the toilet, passing urine more frequently, with thirst, feeling tired and getting thinner, please come forward for support."


    Easily missed until you turn up in an ambulance soon afterwards.

    I don't see much 'privatisation', unless you mean the type of nutjobs who were going for Jeremy Hunt in the years 2010-2015 roughly. The "Dr Eoin Clarke" types (who was a Doctor of the History of Irish Feminism who chracteristically never told anyone but put Dr in his handle).
    Not all Type1 present as ketoacidosis, and particularly can present with chronic symptoms in adult life, and often misdiagnosed as the much more common type 2.

    Credit to Mrs May (a late onset type 1 diabetic) for rolling out continuous glucose monitoring as NHS policy having found it transformative personally.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    Nigelb said:

    How did Adidas not see this ?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68708981
    ..Adidas separately told the BBC that the German Football Association (DFB) and its partners had designed the numbers on the shirts.
    In a post on Twitter/X, the DFB said the shirt designs had been submitted to UEFA for review during the design process and that "none of the parties involved saw any proximity to Nazi symbolism".
    They added that an alternative design for the number 4 would be developed...

    Oh my goodness, that's really bad.

    Are the German football authorities closet AfD agents or something?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,556
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl

    I am not sure what point you are trying to make about the private sector, as the NHS has never manufactured medicines or devices itself.

    The NHS is leading the world in rolling out these closed loop systems for type 1 diabetics though. In part because the outlay in initial cost pays off in long term savings in complications. This is a very sensible example of long term health investment.
    The point I am making is that this is great news.

    The point I am also making is the "no private involvement in the NHS brigade" so loud on social media, are wrong and have no understanding of medical device creation and manufacture.
    You've obviously never read about the very dodgy practices of some implant firms in the past. Or the screaming of certain surgeons made to take clinical trials data seriously.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,335
    MattW said:

    ...

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    I find Tory to LD very odd particularly in the light of recent by elections. If this makes any sense, and colour me skeptical, Tories should gain heart from DKs and Reform switchers.
    Been a while since we've had a by election in a sufficiently leafy or rural locale. The two that were unambiguously Lib Dem-able in the post-Boris era (Tiverton and Somerton) were routine Lib Dem gains.
    Would this not be centred on Lib Dem target seats, such as eg around universities or Richmond Park?
    Yes, and there aren't enough places like that to move the nationwide dial much.
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016
    TimS said:

    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    A centaur? That’s quite the image.
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    Interesting no discernable Lib Dem leakage to the Greens.
    Given much of the 2019 LD vote was “diehard remainers”, often in the wrong areas, this does seem a bit counterintuitive as you’d expect that voter bloc to be scattered to the four winds.

    The Lib Dem numbers seem to be based on a particularly low polling result for them. I’m sure there’s more Tory leakage there, as well as some tactical voters from Labour and Green come the election.
    If the centaur had a vote it would be Lib Dem

    After all they are a centaur party.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,478
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    Interesting no discernable Lib Dem leakage to the Greens.
    I think the graphic is designed to show the disintegration of the Tory 2019 vote rather than all voter movements.
  • TazTaz Posts: 11,016

    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
    Did the SNP ever get the motor home back ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    Good morning, please call me Horse :)
    Half man half horse and licensed to shit in the streets
    A centaur? That’s quite the image.
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    This little graphic shows how voters have moved:


    Interesting no discernable Lib Dem leakage to the Greens.
    Given much of the 2019 LD vote was “diehard remainers”, often in the wrong areas, this does seem a bit counterintuitive as you’d expect that voter bloc to be scattered to the four winds.

    The Lib Dem numbers seem to be based on a particularly low polling result for them. I’m sure there’s more Tory leakage there, as well as some tactical voters from Labour and Green come the election.
    If the centaur had a vote it would be Lib Dem

    After all they are a centaur party.
    Well, when they got into government it was definitely a case of 'things fall apart: the centre cannot hold.'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,029
    Off topic

    Good to see the BBC licence fee remains value for money.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huw-edwards-bbc-full-pay-suspended-annual-report-ml3vv8vhb
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,940

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
    Did the SNP ever get the motor home back ?
    It’s likely a write-off by now; these things deteriorate if left sitting in a pound somewhere. Lots of dry bits get wet, and lots of wet bits get dry. IIRC it had already been parked up for a couple of years when it was removed by Plod in the first place.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,940
    Well, I think this clears up any doubts people might have.


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,212
    edited April 2

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    To think I was accused of trolling when I made the same a few months ago.

    It’s Brexitannia delenda est time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
    Did the SNP ever get the motor home back ?
    They'll have to tow the line first.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,195
    edited April 2
    We need to talk about Brexit | FT Film

    The UK's 2016 vote to leave the EU was the most dramatic political and economic decision for generations. But as the country prepares for a general election, it is no longer on the political agenda. This film examines why no political party wants to talk about it, why Brexit remains the elephant in the room for British business and how it could actually work better

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4

    Half an hour of Brexit from the Financial Times, uploaded within the last hour as if in response to this thread.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Exciting news for Type 1 diabetics

    Artificial pancreases to be rolled out .

    Mind you for those who say no private sector involvement in the NHS I presume they don't mean in this case :wink:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/thousands-with-type-1-diabetes-in-england-to-receive-artificial-pancreas/ar-BB1kUtgl

    I am not sure what point you are trying to make about the private sector, as the NHS has never manufactured medicines or devices itself.

    The NHS is leading the world in rolling out these closed loop systems for type 1 diabetics though. In part because the outlay in initial cost pays off in long term savings in complications. This is a very sensible example of long term health investment.
    In the experience of ex-colleagues of mine, the NHS is awful at implementing new technologies. Preferred bidders, fiefdoms, we-dont-do-it-that-way, required backhanders; you jump through all the hoops to make a safe and reliable device, and it's nearly impossible to get it rolled out. Even after a very successful trial.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,556
    edited April 2

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,312
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning BCH.

    It’s also a mistake for another reason. Tony Blair was hated by at least the same amount, Neil Kinnock likewise. It’s well known that the Left loathe new Labour.

    All it does is cement the idea that Starmer’s Labour are in the centre ground and therefore to be trusted by most sensible British people.

    I think the electoral effect of floating voter sensitivity to Labour hard left is minuscule by now. Keir has already shot that fox. In fact he could probably pick up some ratings by promising a few more leftish things.

    Same quasi-equilibrium is now observable in the Tory vote too. I don’t think there’s much further voter leakage to come from fear of the Tory hard right, those voters have left already, which explains their focus on Reform talking points.
    I'm not convinced that Keir *has* shot that fox. He might have put it under a temporarily soundproof barrel.

    The Socialist Campaign Group membership is still 31 or 35 if you include suspendees. In 2015 that was under 10.

    There are plenty of well-ensconced nutters (perhaps that should be "headbangers"). I think one determinant may be the balance between bees in bonnets and wider loyalty.

    And I have no idea of the mix of current candidates who may be elected in any putative landslide.
    It is exceedingly difficult for any new left-wingers to be selected at the moment. The last estimate I saw identified only one new potential Socialist Campaign Group member in the entire country.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,099
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
    Did the SNP ever get the motor home back ?
    They asked for it back quite recently, a couple of weeks ago. The police wanted to hold onto it until they had completed their investigation....so that's a no.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    On a point of pedantry:

    Drake was a privateer, not a pirate.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 204

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    If Brexit erodes away to nothing, it will be because the British people didn't deserve a successful Brexit.

    Relevant to the header as well. The kind of people who who agree with the sentiments in that article aren't going to be squeezed back to the Conservatives by fear of Labour being worse.
    Hahahaha this is delusion. Brexit was an unservicable utopian dream to begin with... rejoiners told you but you wouldn't listen. This reminds me of the last weeks of the third reich, when a certain German leader declared that the German people had failed him. Hahahaha. Yeah, that, or it was madness all along.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
    Did the SNP ever get the motor home back ?
    They asked for it back quite recently, a couple of weeks ago. The police wanted to hold onto it until they had completed their investigation....so that's a no.
    Perhaps they should uncouple the ownership from the investigation?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,335
    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    Venerating a totally non-functional replica of a partially non- functional replica of a questionable buccaneering past?

    How very metaphorical.
  • Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    This is ridiculously unfair to Devon's finest (well, third finest after Sir Walter Raleigh and Neil Parish). He was, of course, a privateer rather than a buccaneer, meaning he did basically the same but had a letter from the Queen saying it was fine.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 90

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Just look at the date stamp on that piece. Still, I suppose every day is 1 April if you write for the Telegraph.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,556
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    On a point of pedantry:

    Drake was a privateer, not a pirate.
    Some of the time, sure, but he sometimes didn't wait for war to break out AIUI.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    edited April 2

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    This is ridiculously unfair to Devon's finest (well, third finest after Sir Walter Raleigh and Neil Parish). He was, of course, a privateer rather than a buccaneer, meaning he did basically the same but had a letter from the Queen saying it was fine.
    And gave her a percentage of the profits. Don't forget that quite important bit.

    When he turn up at Plymouth after his circumnavigation with, if memory serves, five tons of gold and one of spices, her share of the loot exceeded the regular annual income to the Exchequer.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,940
    edited April 2
    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    I think some billionaire or other is building a 1:1 scale operational replica of the Titanic. Perhaps it can be rented out for full fat Brexit metaphors.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,335
    Muesli said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Just look at the date stamp on that piece. Still, I suppose every day is 1 April if you write for the Telegraph.
    Time stamp is 7.00pm, so well after mid-day.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,195
    NHS hippy crack heists: Hospitals are warned thieves are now stealing nitrous oxide 'laughing' gas to order - after law change made the canisters illegal
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13252209/hippy-crack-heists-nhs-supplier-warns-nitrous-oxide-gas-canisters-stolen-law-change-illegal.html

    Unintended consequences. Possessing small vials of nitrous oxide was made illegal last November following a moral panic over littering and now cylinders of the pain-killing gas are being nicked from hospitals and ambulances.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,556

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    This is ridiculously unfair to Devon's finest (well, third finest after Sir Walter Raleigh and Neil Parish). He was, of course, a privateer rather than a buccaneer, meaning he did basically the same but had a letter from the Queen saying it was fine.
    Can't be a privateer if there's no war. Just piracy otherwise, as the Spanish rightly complained.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,940
    edited April 2
    The worst morons are the ‘they’re all as bad as each other, btw I’m not responsible for any consequences of my vote’ morons. See also Bruce Dickinson and Roger Daltrey.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,029
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scottish Plod complaining they do not have extra money or resource to deal with this, on the news, this morning.
    They've already got their hands full investigating Holyrood corruption.
    Did the SNP ever get the motor home back ?
    It’s likely a write-off by now; these things deteriorate if left sitting in a pound somewhere. Lots of dry bits get wet, and lots of wet bits get dry. IIRC it had already been parked up for a couple of years when it was removed by Plod in the first place.
    It's only a couple of years old, it'll be fine . Probably a set of tyres due to flat spotting, a service and a valet and it'll be already for it's first MOT. Probably just a 20% depreciation as RVs hold their value.

    Otherwise you could grab yourself a Copart bargain.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,084
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    This is ridiculously unfair to Devon's finest (well, third finest after Sir Walter Raleigh and Neil Parish). He was, of course, a privateer rather than a buccaneer, meaning he did basically the same but had a letter from the Queen saying it was fine.
    Can't be a privateer if there's no war. Just piracy otherwise, as the Spanish rightly complained.
    Actually, you could. Because as a privateer, what you do could be considered an act of war.

    It was one of the things that pissed off the Spanish.

    Also, pirates did not share their plunder.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 90

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    This is ridiculously unfair to Devon's finest (well, third finest after Sir Walter Raleigh and Neil Parish). He was, of course, a privateer rather than a buccaneer, meaning he did basically the same but had a letter from the Queen saying it was fine.
    Whether or not calling Drake a buccaneer is a canard, there’s no ducking the issue that he was a very naughty man.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,556
    edited April 2
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    This is ridiculously unfair to Devon's finest (well, third finest after Sir Walter Raleigh and Neil Parish). He was, of course, a privateer rather than a buccaneer, meaning he did basically the same but had a letter from the Queen saying it was fine.
    Can't be a privateer if there's no war. Just piracy otherwise, as the Spanish rightly complained.
    Actually, you could. Because as a privateer, what you do could be considered an act of war.

    It was one of the things that pissed off the Spanish.

    Also, pirates did not share their plunder.
    I meant, proper official war. As opposed to a private one. Even if QE got her cut.

    Mind, it happened again in 1804, with the capture of the Spanish treasure fleet. The RN matelots were very pissed off when HM KGIII took the lot and gave them a tip instead of proper prize money - the point being that there was no war, which was a bit hypocritical of HMG. But it makes the point.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 204
    Muesli said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Just look at the date stamp on that piece. Still, I suppose every day is 1 April if you write for the Telegraph.
    I actually think this is a real article. It is quite dark in its reasoning and by Sherelle Jacobs who is one of the more serious writes in that outlet. Also it came out in the evening with a view to april 2 reading.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    Ted Cruz in Texas is in a real fight to retain his Senate seat - latest polling has him tied with his Democrat challenger. He is at 51% unfavourables with Independents.

    Down to his absolutist stance on abortion.

    2024 is supposed to be a very difficult set of elections for the Democrats to retain the Senate. Losing Texas wasn't supposed to be in the mix... But state protections for abortion are on the ballot - and are likely to be a major factor in turnout.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    edited April 2

    Carnyx said:

    Up is down, in is out, left is right, cats and dogs living together - total chaos.

    I know the game is up for brexit when I see these headlines in the telegraph

    "At some point we need to be honest with ourselves. If, as a nation, we are unwilling to maximally benefit from Brexit by leveraging our freedom, then we should decisively minimise our losses and re-enter the security of the EU fold."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/01/britain-is-now-terrified-of-freedom-it-should-rejoin-the-eu/

    Not to get all Godwiny but more than a whiff of AH ranting about the German people being too weak to deserve the manifest blessings of the 1000 year Reich.
    Did you notice the 3-D metaphor for "buccaneering* Britain" stuck in the mudflats in some Brexit-voting port? I think someone at the DT has a sense of irony.

    Actually, just checked. It was Brixham, in Torbay, so yes, voting out. And as for buccaneering, Wiki: 'A replica of Golden Hind has been permanently moored in the harbour of the sea port of Brixham in Devon (GB-TOB 50°23′48″N 3°30′46″W) since 1963 following its use in the TV series Sir Francis Drake, which was filmed in and around the bays of Torbay and Dartmouth. The replica ship used in the TV series cost the film studio £25,000 to construct had no rear gallery or gun deck and was a converted fishing boat.[17] The ship sank in heavy seas whilst under tow in 1987 to Dartmouth for restoration and could not be saved. A second replica was completed in 1988 and stands in the harbour being visited by thousands of visitors annually. The current vessel based on a steel barge is not full size and could never sail.'


    *For which read mass murdering, enslaving and pillaging, given that 'buccaneer' is an euphemism for pirate used by those who don't know their history and won't restrict it to the more accurate term of sort of messing around and doing this and that in the Caribbean.
    I think some billionaire or other is building a 1:1 scale operational replica of the Titanic. Perhaps it can be rented out for full fat Brexit metaphors.
    IIRD there were two Titanic schemes: one actual seagoing vessel, and another (Chinese, I think) hotel that was essentially landlocked.

    Both schemes appear to be moribund.

    Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_II
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romandisea_Titanic
  • The worst morons are the ‘they’re all as bad as each other, btw I’m not responsible for any consequences of my vote’ morons. See also Bruce Dickinson and Roger Daltrey.

    In fairness, I've not been told how to eat my pork chops by an Estonian since we left. And yet the metropolitan elite claim there are no Brexit dividends.
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