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Not the performance of a government that is going to be re-elected – politicalbetting.com

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    Early day motion calling for Hoyle to resign
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    edited February 21
    Interesting fact

    Lindsay Hoyle's father, Doug Hoyle, is still around at the age of 94. He was Labour MP for Warrington and Nelson and Colne. He stopped Roy Jenkins from being elected as an SDP MP at the Warrington by-election in 1981.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hoyle
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,959

    Early day motion calling for Hoyle to resign

    Will Labour put in an amendment?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869

    • Night Tube
    • Ulez
    • Elizabeth Line
    • Ulex
    • 5G Tube

    YES WE KHAN!

    Night Tube was also part of Boris's second term, it just didn't come in until a few months after he left office because he ran out of time.
    True but he got completely bogged down failing to negotiate with the unions - Khan got them to the table and got the project over the line. The winner takes it all. (Hence why the bikes are called Boris Bikes!)
    Those negotiations had concluded by the time he left office in May 2016. The new services were slated for the 2nd half of the year.

    FWIW, I think both Ken and Boris were good mayors. Ken (despite being a Hitler obsessed nutcase, and doing weird stuff like an oil deal with Venezuela) really did advocate for the Olympics and Crossrail in ways that benefited the capital. Boris with the buses, bikes and crime/tax cuts and he himself also lobbied heavily for Crossrail not to be cancelled and covered the project whilst in office. His garden bridge idea was a bit nuts but personally I actually really liked it.

    But Khan? Just the King of gesture politics.

    Really don't respect the guy at all.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967
    edited February 21
    How Keir Starmer averted Gaza ceasefire vote crisis
    Kiran Stacey Political correspondent


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/21/how-keir-starmer-averted-gaza-ceasefire-vote-crisis
  • Options

    It strikes me that many of the people who are saying that the UK Parliament should not waste its time discussing a conflict/war that it can have no influence over are the same people that assert that the UK punches above its weight in international affairs and should do more to exercise its global influence.

    By all means have an hour on it, call for a ceasefire. But a day on it, that descends into farce with the speaker having to consider his position and the house considering meeting behind closed doors? That's a real good look.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,036

    It strikes me that many of the people who are saying that the UK Parliament should not waste its time discussing a conflict/war that it can have no influence over are the same people that assert that the UK punches above its weight in international affairs and should do more to exercise its global influence.

    Influence comes in many forms. Today’s spectacle was not one of them.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,975
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    edited February 21

    • Night Tube
    • Ulez
    • Elizabeth Line
    • Ulex
    • 5G Tube

    YES WE KHAN!

    Night Tube was also part of Boris's second term, it just didn't come in until a few months after he left office because he ran out of time.
    True but he got completely bogged down failing to negotiate with the unions - Khan got them to the table and got the project over the line. The winner takes it all. (Hence why the bikes are called Boris Bikes!)
    Those negotiations had concluded by the time he left office in May 2016. The new services were slated for the 2nd half of the year.

    FWIW, I think both Ken and Boris were good mayors. Ken (despite being a Hitler obsessed nutcase, and doing weird stuff like an oil deal with Venezuela) really did advocate for the Olympics and Crossrail in ways that benefited the capital. Boris with the buses, bikes and crime/tax cuts and he himself also lobbied heavily for Crossrail not to be cancelled and covered the project whilst in office. His garden bridge idea was a bit nuts but personally I actually really liked it.

    But Khan? Just the King of gesture politics.

    Really don't respect the guy at all.
    Is this supposed to be an ironic post? If Khan had done that you'd be calling it woke and a complete waste of money.

    Knife crime had started going up before Johnson left office.

    The rest of your post, I mostly agree with.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    edited February 21

    Early day motion calling for Hoyle to resign

    "No confidence in the Speaker"

    https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/61908

    33 signatories so far, all Con or SNP.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,935

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    Apparently that nasty-wasty bully boy SKS has tricked the Tories into failing to vote for their own amendment thus getting Labour’s own motion carried, which has united the PLP causing a major headache for Big John Owls.
    Great analysis (not)
    What part of the Labour amendment do you disagree with?
    The name of the first Proposer!

    Oh and the fact it has a precondition for a ceasefire and a get out of ceasefire clause for one side.

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    Well

    @GBNEWS understands Govt Chief Whip Simon Hart warned Sir Lindsay Hoyle twice this morning not to go ahead with his plan to allow a Labour amendment today.

    Mr Hart told the Speaker his actions would “unleash hell“ if he went ahead, according to sources.

    Hoyle ignored him.


    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1760390521724268585

    I don't get it, there's precedence.

    In 2000 a Liberal Democrat amendment was called on an Opposition Day motion and the amendment was voted on first.

    If that was the precedence then, why shouldn't it be today?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,329
    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,975

    Sorry for being lazy but in short what was the difference between Labour and SNP motions?

    The SNP motion was performative dance in 3/4 time. The Labour motion was in 4/4 time.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286

    How Keir Starmer averted Gaza ceasefire vote crisis
    Kiran Stacey Political correspondent


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/21/how-keir-starmer-averted-gaza-ceasefire-vote-crisis

    4D chess from Starmertron
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,619
    edited February 21

    If only these fuckers could be so passionate about actually running the country. It's embarrassing.

    I suspect the Tories are sufficiently desperate about their electoral prospects that they hope that chaos and a plague on all their houses might be the only way to level the field.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,935
    Funniest thing about today is that those Labour MPs who were under pressure from constituents for not voting for a ceasefire, still haven't as there was no division
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,975
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Seems like a bit of masterful politicking from Starmer tonight. He's a cunning bugger.

    I don't think so. Thinks he can expel the speaker in the same way he has dealt with Socialists or the wrong sort of Jew.

    Nasty man who will be a disasterous PM.

    Mind you Hoyles is the main person responsible for today's farce.
    You don't care about the war in Gaza. You care about causing embarrassment for Starmer, a man who obsesses you like you're some sort of flatulent Captain Ahab. Now embarrassment for Starmer is off the table you're throwing your toys out of the pram like the manchild you are.
    Ahab evidently Not Popular with marine mammals. Understandably.
    Moby Dick is actually a love story - the star crossed Ahab and titular whale kill each other in a suicide pact.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967
    Andy_JS said:

    Early day motion calling for Hoyle to resign

    "No confidence in the Speaker"

    https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/61908

    33 signatories so far, all Con or SNP.
    SNP colluding with the Tories is not necessarily an advantageous look.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    Graham Brady is one of those signing the motion of no confidence in the Speaker.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,619
    The ceasefire that is needed is in the Commons.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286
    Not that it means much to our friend on the number 37, but the SNP and Tories have been completely outplayed, out-thought and out-manoeuvred by Labour today.

    You have to hand it to SKS.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,788
    edited February 21
    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,197
    RobD said:

    I am so lost, what exactly is going on in Parliament.

    A lot of virtue signalling nonsense. A complete waste of time.
    If you're virtue signalling it's hard to beat the man of virtue - T Tugendhat (try a Google translate of "Thomas Tugend hat")

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869

    • Night Tube
    • Ulez
    • Elizabeth Line
    • Ulex
    • 5G Tube

    YES WE KHAN!

    Night Tube was also part of Boris's second term, it just didn't come in until a few months after he left office because he ran out of time.
    True but he got completely bogged down failing to negotiate with the unions - Khan got them to the table and got the project over the line. The winner takes it all. (Hence why the bikes are called Boris Bikes!)
    Those negotiations had concluded by the time he left office in May 2016. The new services were slated for the 2nd half of the year.

    FWIW, I think both Ken and Boris were good mayors. Ken (despite being a Hitler obsessed nutcase, and doing weird stuff like an oil deal with Venezuela) really did advocate for the Olympics and Crossrail in ways that benefited the capital. Boris with the buses, bikes and crime/tax cuts and he himself also lobbied heavily for Crossrail not to be cancelled and covered the project whilst in office. His garden bridge idea was a bit nuts but personally I actually really liked it.

    But Khan? Just the King of gesture politics.

    Really don't respect the guy at all.
    Is this supposed to be an ironic post? If Khan had done that you'd be calling it woke and a complete waste of money.

    Knife crime had started going up before Johnson left office.

    The rest of your post, I mostly agree with.
    Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,853

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

    Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,869

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    Check out the 1979 no confidence vote.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,619
    edited February 21

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Not really. Because of the nonsense that any opposition motion is not binding if carried, as I mentioned above, the Tories over recent years have usually refused to participate in opposition day debates, thus making an irrelevance of that part of parliamentary procedure. Which is, in itself, shameful. Thus, and perhaps sadly, whatever is carried as a result of this mess is of no consequence.
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

    Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
    I was having a conversation about giant, ocean going steam ships yesterday and how they worked.

    Presumably they consumed an awful lot of water in the engine

    Presumably they did not carry all that water and it came from the ocean, full of salt

    Presumably that salt would ruin the engines in no time whatsoever

    So how did it work ?
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,562

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Well firstly I don’t think that’s right, because it’s a non-binding motion.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    edited February 21

    Early day motion calling for Hoyle to resign

    Will Labour put in an amendment?
    Amendments to EDMs may be tabled. They must be within the scope of the original motion and must not seek to alter the motion in such a way as to make it longer than 250 words

    https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/4753/early-day-motions
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,008

    There is something slightly hubristic about all this crowing about what Parliament does or does not pass in a war that doesn't concern us.

    Neither Hamas nor Israel could care less about the motions in Westminster today I'm sure.

    Just you wait until they find out about the Scottish Parliament votes though - that's what will really knock heads together!
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    IanB2 said:

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Not really. Because of the nonsense that any opposition motion is not binding if carried, as I mentioned above, the Tories over recent years have usually refused to participate in opposition day debates, thus making an irrelevance of that part of parliamentary procedure. Which is, in itself, shameful. Thus, and perhaps sadly, whatever is carried as a result of this mess is of no consequence.
    Bryant has been caught out saying untruths?

    Say it isn't so.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Sunak taking his eye off the ball again. Too busy meeting the King.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Maybe that was their cunning plan all along 😃
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,008
    kle4 said:

    Early day motion calling for Hoyle to resign

    Will Labour put in an amendment?
    Amendments to EDMs may be tabled. They must be within the scope of the original motion and must not seek to alter the motion in such a way as to make it longer than 250 words

    https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/4753/early-day-motions
    I blame twitter.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    In another universe the government used its majority to win the vote and assert its authority.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    IanB2 said:

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Not really. Because of the nonsense that any opposition motion is not binding if carried, as I mentioned above, the Tories over recent years have usually refused to participate in opposition day debates, thus making an irrelevance of that part of parliamentary procedure. Which is, in itself, shameful. Thus, and perhaps sadly, whatever is carried as a result of this mess is of no consequence.
    If you are right, and I've no reason to believe you are not, then Bryant is being a bit of a shit stirrer. He wrote a book on how to fix parliament, he surely knows a little about procedural rules even if it was focused on behaviour.

    Then again I own a copy of Erskine May so I should know more than I do.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,052

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    Check out the 1979 no confidence vote.
    That was the “Tartan Tories” vote, but the dynamic here is rather different: blue Nats.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,073
    sarissa said:

    Sorry for being lazy but in short what was the difference between Labour and SNP motions?

    The SNP motion condemned the collective punishment of the Gaza population, essentially accusing Israel of contravening the Geneva Convention and committing a war crime.
    Which Israel has, and they have.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,036

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    Check out the 1979 no confidence vote.
    Happier times, certainly.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,073

    AlsoLei said:

    On topic, it's fascinating to see that people believe by 67% to 22% that Sunak is failing even on the pledge to reduce inflation

    I mean, I'm about as far from being a Sunakian as it's possible to get, and even I'll admit that inflation has fallen from where it was a year ago!

    So 67% of the population are prepared to kick Sunak for any reason, whether valid or not....

    Not really. Most people are economically illiterate (me too!).

    "Inflation rises = bad, price rises
    Inflation falls = good, price falls"

    As prices haven't fallen, then people don't believe inflation hasn't fallen.

    It's like the 'debt vs deficit' arguments this site was engaged in more than ten years ago now.
    People are happy about high inflation as it means their pay, pension, and benefits rise.

    People are unhappy about price rises as it means they have to pay more.

    So what people want is high inflation and price falls.

    Which requires prices falls for the things they buy but price rises for things they do not buy but 'people like them' do buy.
    That sounds like Pestonomics.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    edited February 21

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    Check out the 1979 no confidence vote.
    One of the biggest examples of turkeys voting for Christmas. The SNP were reduced from 11 seats to 2, and didn't get beyond 3 again until 1997.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    We did have an SNP MP cross the floor to the Tories. Perhaps they are all secret Tories?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Not really. Because of the nonsense that any opposition motion is not binding if carried, as I mentioned above, the Tories over recent years have usually refused to participate in opposition day debates, thus making an irrelevance of that part of parliamentary procedure. Which is, in itself, shameful. Thus, and perhaps sadly, whatever is carried as a result of this mess is of no consequence.
    If you are right, and I've no reason to believe you are not, then Bryant is being a bit of a shit stirrer. He wrote a book on how to fix parliament, he surely knows a little about procedural rules even if it was focused on behaviour.

    Then again I own a copy of Erskine May so I should know more than I do.
    Don't be ridiculous. The government is still in full control of what passes for its policies and won't be at all affected by today's vote one way or the other.

    But if you want to test your assertion properly, Labour could always table an actual Confidence vote?


    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1760372802480185629

    You can’t lose control of policy on an Opposition Day vote you boycott.

    It is not a confidence issue.

    An election is not required by convention.


    https://twitter.com/HackBlackburn/status/1760397376177455183
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    Over the top.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,008

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    Check out the 1979 no confidence vote.
    I have a vague memory of them being played by the Major government. Verbal promises that then - oh! surprise! - turned out not to be.... urm... worth the paper they were not written on.
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    sarissa said:

    Sorry for being lazy but in short what was the difference between Labour and SNP motions?

    The SNP motion condemned the collective punishment of the Gaza population, essentially accusing Israel of contravening the Geneva Convention and committing a war crime.
    Which Israel has, and they have.
    No and no.

    Going to war is entirely legitimate. It's not Israels fault their enemy hides amongst the population but Israel is fully entitled to do whatever is proportionately necessary to fulfill its objectives.

    Which is exactly what it is doing.

    If you want a safe area for Palestinians, it needs to be outside of the war zone. That is the entire bloody point of the refugee convention. There can be no safe area for Hamas during the war.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,073

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?

    Because everything is woke nowadays.
  • Options

    There is something slightly hubristic about all this crowing about what Parliament does or does not pass in a war that doesn't concern us.

    Neither Hamas nor Israel could care less about the motions in Westminster today I'm sure.

    Takes us back to why all this happened.

    I'm sure the SNP care deeply about the plight of Palestinians (replaces onion back in sporran), but they care more about making life difficult for the true enemy, the Labour Party.

    That particular fox got shot today.
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
    Explain in cricket terms
  • Options

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
    Explain in cricket terms
    Speaker Hoyle: Alex Carey

    SNP: Jonny Bairstow
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,562
    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    Personally I’m not convinced they should really be drumming up support for this. Hoyle gives the impression of being a decent chap. However he reached his decision today, I have no doubt that he feels extremely regretful now. It is a job he loves doing and I think he does care how the HoC is seen. That he has played the central part in tonight’s events will have upset him, I think.

    I think there’s a decent chance he will stand down tomorrow anyway. I feel like if he does decide to stay he will likely do so having taken soundings and being satisfied he has broad enough support to do so.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,052
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    An alliance of the Tories and SNP is not something I had on my bingo card.
    We did have an SNP MP cross the floor to the Tories. Perhaps they are all secret Tories?
    Like I said, other way round. Based on their behaviour since 2016 the Tories seem to be secret Scot Nats.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,329
    @kiranstacey

    EXC: Up to 100 Labour MPs were ready to rebel on Wednesday if they didn’t get a vote on their amendment, including two shadow cabinet ministers.

    @aljwhite

    This is really the end result of the day: it simply couldn’t have gone better for Starmer given the very very difficult position he faced




    Tell us again how bad this guy is at his job???
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    I've just been researching what conflicts are currently ongoing, see what other stuff our politicians can debate so they don't have to get bored actually running our place.
    Apparently, in 2020, Mexico topped the leader board for armed conflict deaths. I knew the narcos were a bit tasty, but that surprised me!
  • Options

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
    Explain in cricket terms
    Labour pulled a Mankad.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,052
    Purge time
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,481

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Well he would say that, wouldn’t he.

    Not your night at Anfield currently. If it’s like this at ninety minutes there may be 10:extra minutes played to allow Liverpool to score 😮
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    Personally I’m not convinced they should really be drumming up support for this. Hoyle gives the impression of being a decent chap. However he reached his decision today, I have no doubt that he feels extremely regretful now. It is a job he loves doing and I think he does care how the HoC is seen. That he has played the central part in tonight’s events will have upset him, I think.

    I think there’s a decent chance he will stand down tomorrow anyway. I feel like if he does decide to stay he will likely do so having taken soundings and being satisfied he has broad enough support to do so.
    They may well regret it if they take Hoyle down now. Of course, as with when they went to war with Bercow failing to take him down only led to him becoming more vengeful, so they might now think they have no choice.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,481

    There is something slightly hubristic about all this crowing about what Parliament does or does not pass in a war that doesn't concern us.

    Neither Hamas nor Israel could care less about the motions in Westminster today I'm sure.

    Takes us back to why all this happened.

    I'm sure the SNP care deeply about the plight of Palestinians (replaces onion back in sporran), but they care more about making life difficult for the true enemy, the Labour Party.

    That particular fox got shot today.
    Yup, George Eaton was right in that respect.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,975
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

    Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
    The broad gauge was completely unnecessary - the engineering reasons behind the idea were wrong. Which is why no one else built 7 foot track.

    The atmospheric railway was a predicted failure - x miles of leather exposed to the weather being banged around by the valve passing through at 40mph+

    The steamships - especially the Great Eastern - were underpowered for their size. Which is why it was only after triple expansion came in that giant steamships worked.

    He was, politically, a mad reactionary and his idea of industrial relations was feudalism, pretty much.

    He was a great engineer in some ways, but his failings were huge.

    Shall we talk about his insane locomotive designs for GWR? he was rescued by Gooch, otherwise the whole railway might have failed.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,159

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
    I don’t think the Tories went home early, more that they sat in the pub outwardly tutting and harrumphing at the brawl but secretly they were filming it on their phones to laugh at with their mates on Facebook later.
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    Taz said:

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Well he would say that, wouldn’t he.

    Not your night at Anfield currently. If it’s like this at ninety minutes there may be 10:extra minutes played to allow Liverpool to score 😮
    Thoughts and prayers for the Everton fans who cannot cheer Liverpool losing.

    Liverpool deliberately losing to Luton in order to send Everton into the Championship. Fair play.

    https://twitter.com/paddypower/status/1760392148308861286
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,935
    Which way did SKS vote on the Ceasefire amendment?
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    Oh.

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...


    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1760402023294415113
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,329
    @NatashaC

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286

    Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?

    Because everything is woke nowadays.
    I seem to remember that blue top milk is woke these days - that news reached me today
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,008
    IanB2 said:

    So much of parliamentary procedure is arcane and idiotic. For example, very occasionally allowing the opposition to table and debate propositions, but regardless of how the house votes, the outcome isn’t binding. That is simply nonsensical procedure.

    I've occasionally seen JRM opining about how the civil service needs to modernise or die. How the NHS needs to modernise or die. While he wears a morning suit and top hat. And sounds like a failed extra from Jeeves & Wooster. Occasionally slumped on a leather bench in a gothic bake-off challenge of a building.

    Nonsensical procedure is what's good for the gander, if not for the goose.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,327
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

    Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
    IMV you're both correct. Brunel was a genius (although also a massive self-publicist); but much of what @Malmesbury says is also correct.

    As one example, it's interesting to think what would have happened if the Great Western Steamship Company had built three Great Western-class ships *before* building the Great Britain. And likewise, if they had built three Great Britain-class ships before hopefully forgetting about the Great Eastern (*). In those days, companies relying on single ships were always going to risk a sinking, or a Dundrum Bay style mishap. And bigger is not always better...

    Brunel's obituaries were not quite as glowing as one would expect them to be, given the mythos that has developed since 1859. As an example: https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/archive/september-1859-brunels-obituary/

    People can be great *and* flawed.

    (*) As much as I love that ship.
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    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @christiancalgie
    BREAKING: 33 MPs have backed Will Wragg’s motion of no confidence in Sir Lindsay Hoyle.

    In 2009, 22 MPs backed an identical motion in Michael Martin.

    He resigned 2 days later.

    11 SNP signatories
    22 Tories

    Personally I’m not convinced they should really be drumming up support for this. Hoyle gives the impression of being a decent chap. However he reached his decision today, I have no doubt that he feels extremely regretful now. It is a job he loves doing and I think he does care how the HoC is seen. That he has played the central part in tonight’s events will have upset him, I think.

    I think there’s a decent chance he will stand down tomorrow anyway. I feel like if he does decide to stay he will likely do so having taken soundings and being satisfied he has broad enough support to do so.
    They may well regret it if they take Hoyle down now. Of course, as with when they went to war with Bercow failing to take him down only led to him becoming more vengeful, so they might now think they have no choice.
    On the other hand, it's not long until the General Election and there's bugger all actually happening in Parliament.

    And getting rid of a Speaker because you disagree with a decision he takes is a very dangerous precedent to set.
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    Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?

    Because everything is woke nowadays.
    I seem to remember that blue top milk is woke these days - that news reached me today
    Considering how blue top milk is real milk, I'd like to see the logic on that one.

    I'd have thought soy "milk" would be considered woke if anything.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,085
    If Starmer has to resort to threatening to remove the Speaker if he follows precedent it does suggest that the internal problems in Labour are pretty significant.

    As for Northern Al - sorry mate you are looking out of the wrong end of the telescope. This has all been brought about by the SNP, the ones who are always claiming that we aren't as important as we think we are, who nonehteless think it vital that we hold a vote on a Gaza ceasefire.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,562
    Anyway, can we not just have a GE now please? Today has been a classic bit of Commons drama/nonsense but the country is still broken and the Tories still don’t seem to really want to run a government, so if they could do us all a favour and start preparing for May, that would be great, thanks…
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,619
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fucking hell.

    Where do we even start with this one?

    Extraordinary. The government has decided not to take any further part in the debate. If the Labour motion is now carried the government will have lost control of its foreign policy. By tradition that is a matter of confidence. And should lead to an immediate general election.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1760369493312680310

    Not really. Because of the nonsense that any opposition motion is not binding if carried, as I mentioned above, the Tories over recent years have usually refused to participate in opposition day debates, thus making an irrelevance of that part of parliamentary procedure. Which is, in itself, shameful. Thus, and perhaps sadly, whatever is carried as a result of this mess is of no consequence.
    If you are right, and I've no reason to believe you are not, then Bryant is being a bit of a shit stirrer. He wrote a book on how to fix parliament, he surely knows a little about procedural rules even if it was focused on behaviour.

    Then again I own a copy of Erskine May so I should know more than I do.
    MPs across the chamber are far more worried about the tale they can tell their agitated constituents, than they are about the genuine humanitarian and geopolitical crisis unfolding in the Middle East.

    Meanwhile the deputy speaker - despite loud cries both aye and noe, dispensed with the days business by deeming both Labour amendment and the amended substantive carried, without any division or recorded vote, leaving every MP unable to verify what position they actually took. A shambles, and even the specifics of how these ‘votes’ got taken is highly questionable - the only time I have ever agreed with a point made by the evil JRM.

    The first seven minutes of Iain Dale’s LBC show are up on YouTube and well worth a listen.
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,008

    Oh.

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...


    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1760402023294415113

    Thank goodness there are no big challenges facing the country. Otherwise I might be worried the government might not be up to it.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,483
    edited February 21
    Interesting from the Guardian that the civil servant at the centre of the Staunton controversy rejects his claims

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/21/post-office-scandal-civil-servant-rejects-claims-she-asked-to-slow-compensation?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,078
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting fact

    Lindsay Hoyle's father, Doug Hoyle, is still around at the age of 94. He was Labour MP for Warrington and Nelson and Colne. He stopped Roy Jenkins from being elected as an SDP MP at the Warrington by-election in 1981.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hoyle

    Yes. He was Chairman of Warrington RL for about 10 years after leaving office.
    Was a regular at Wilderspool whilst still an MP.
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    X
    Scott_xP said:

    @kiranstacey

    EXC: Up to 100 Labour MPs were ready to rebel on Wednesday if they didn’t get a vote on their amendment, including two shadow cabinet ministers.

    @aljwhite

    This is really the end result of the day: it simply couldn’t have gone better for Starmer given the very very difficult position he faced




    Tell us again how bad this guy is at his job???

    He's set a quite a precedent by bullying the Speaker into ignoring parliamentary procedure. If the (senior Lab MP) claims that he sent his heavy Sue in to threaten Hoyle's position are unfounded, it's probably worse. He's then basically bullied by proxy for islamists

    Great short term result though..
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,008

    Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?

    Because everything is woke nowadays.
    I seem to remember that blue top milk is woke these days - that news reached me today
    Considering how blue top milk is real milk, I'd like to see the logic on that one.

    I'd have thought soy "milk" would be considered woke if anything.
    It's called "The reverse Soy-Boy".

    (At the risk of channeling my my inner Leon)
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,950

    Oh.

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...


    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1760402023294415113

    A brilliant day for Labour.

    Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
  • Options

    Which way did SKS vote on the Ceasefire amendment?

    There was no vote
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,853

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

    Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
    The broad gauge was completely unnecessary - the engineering reasons behind the idea were wrong. Which is why no one else built 7 foot track.

    The atmospheric railway was a predicted failure - x miles of leather exposed to the weather being banged around by the valve passing through at 40mph+

    The steamships - especially the Great Eastern - were underpowered for their size. Which is why it was only after triple expansion came in that giant steamships worked.

    He was, politically, a mad reactionary and his idea of industrial relations was feudalism, pretty much.

    He was a great engineer in some ways, but his failings were huge.

    Shall we talk about his insane locomotive designs for GWR? he was rescued by Gooch, otherwise the whole railway might have failed.
    Broad gauge - I think it's clear (in hindsight) that a broader gauge than we have would be better.

    Atmospheric railway - visionary, surely.

    Ships - again visionary,

    Locomotives - you're completely right that his designs were poor. He didn't persist with them.
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
    Explain in cricket terms
    Speaker Hoyle: Alex Carey

    SNP: Jonny Bairstow
    "This is all you will ever be remembered for"
  • Options

    Oh.

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...


    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1760402023294415113

    Scott_xP said:

    @NatashaC

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...

    The twitter twins
  • Options

    Oh.

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...


    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1760402023294415113

    LOL if true but as likely the reports are stirrings for the post-Rishi leadership.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,073

    Been in the pub. Missed the circus.

    In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
    Explain in cricket terms
    Starmer sledged the umpire. SNP retired hurt. Tories lost under Duckworth-Lewis.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286

    Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?

    Because everything is woke nowadays.
    I seem to remember that blue top milk is woke these days - that news reached me today
    Considering how blue top milk is real milk, I'd like to see the logic on that one.

    I'd have thought soy "milk" would be considered woke if anything.
    Well, then you’d be surprised…
  • Options
    AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 828
    Taz said:


    I'd really like to meet the Man on the Clapham Omnibus.

    Trouble is, these days he'd probably be a hipster plugged in with Apple pods listening to some godawful rubbish and would talk a stream of shite if you ever got chatting to him.

    Or, these days, the hipster is more likely to dispense with the iPods and play it loudly on the bus and share the drivel with everyone else. Innit.
    Have either of you actually been on the 88 recently, or is this just ill-informed chuntering?

    I take it a few times a month, and haven't heard much godawful rubbish - and nor have I see anyone with an ipod (how retro!).

    Mostly it's older people with some shopping, last week there were more teenagers (half term?). The two boys who sat in front of me had a discussion about whether a new bus stop was positioned in a sensible spot, and then started talking about driverless cars. They could almost have been PBers...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,619

    Interesting from the Guardian that the civil servant at the centre of the Staunton controversy rejects his claims

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/21/post-office-scandal-civil-servant-rejects-claims-she-asked-to-slow-compensation?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Well, they would, wouldn’t they….
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,562
    edited February 21

    X

    Scott_xP said:

    @kiranstacey

    EXC: Up to 100 Labour MPs were ready to rebel on Wednesday if they didn’t get a vote on their amendment, including two shadow cabinet ministers.

    @aljwhite

    This is really the end result of the day: it simply couldn’t have gone better for Starmer given the very very difficult position he faced




    Tell us again how bad this guy is at his job???

    He's set a quite a precedent by bullying the Speaker into ignoring parliamentary procedure. If the (senior Lab MP) claims that he sent his heavy Sue in to threaten Hoyle's position are unfounded, it's probably worse. He's then basically bullied by proxy for islamists

    Great short term result though..
    Well everything at the moment is seen through the “isn’t SKS great?” lens, so everyone is spinning it as an excellent tactical victory. When his government is on the ropes it would be seen as probably a very different outcome, but hey ho.

    I still maintain no one comes out of today particularly well.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286
    2-1 Liverpool
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,975
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.

    Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.

    What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.

    In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.

    It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
    Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.

    Everyone wants that.

    'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?

    I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
    Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.

    Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships

    Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.

    Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
    The broad gauge was completely unnecessary - the engineering reasons behind the idea were wrong. Which is why no one else built 7 foot track.

    The atmospheric railway was a predicted failure - x miles of leather exposed to the weather being banged around by the valve passing through at 40mph+

    The steamships - especially the Great Eastern - were underpowered for their size. Which is why it was only after triple expansion came in that giant steamships worked.

    He was, politically, a mad reactionary and his idea of industrial relations was feudalism, pretty much.

    He was a great engineer in some ways, but his failings were huge.

    Shall we talk about his insane locomotive designs for GWR? he was rescued by Gooch, otherwise the whole railway might have failed.
    Broad gauge - I think it's clear (in hindsight) that a broader gauge than we have would be better.

    Atmospheric railway - visionary, surely.

    Ships - again visionary,

    Locomotives - you're completely right that his designs were poor. He didn't persist with them.
    On gauge - note that even for single purpose high speed lines, no one moved from the standard(s). The engineering reasons turned out to be wrong.

    Visionary is all very well, but ignoring the practicalities until your shareholders lose their shirts….
  • Options

    2-1 Liverpool

    How many Everton fans just quietly cheered those two goals?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,967
    stodge said:

    Oh.

    Multiple Tory MPs say Penny Mordaunt pulled tonight's amendment because govt did not have votes to support Israel 'humanitarian pause' motion.

    Rumour is that too many Tories had told Whips they were minded to back the Labour motion in favour of full fat ceasefire...


    https://twitter.com/NatashaC/status/1760402023294415113

    A brilliant day for Labour.

    Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
    ...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,935
    Is blackmail a positive trait for a future PM?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,286

    2-1 Liverpool

    How many Everton fans just quietly cheered those two goals?
    Not just Everton fans I can assure you!
This discussion has been closed.