In pub terms, Starmer challenged Hoyle to take him on if he thinks he’s hard enough. SNP had their pints knocked over. Tories went home early.
I don’t think the Tories went home early, more that they sat in the pub outwardly tutting and harrumphing at the brawl but secretly they were filming it on their phones to laugh at with their mates on Facebook later.
Reminds me of the first time I became a cabinet member, in my then Tory majority council. There’d been a big falling out among the Tory group, over what I can’t remember now, but the unhappy minority of them had decided to annoy the majority by boycotting the annual meeting, although they turned up and were all gathered outside in the car park. They didn’t bank on the Labour group and ourselves patching together a deal - which we did very quickly during a ten minute recess - and electing ourselves the cabinet members, with Labour leader as council leader and LibDem leader as her deputy, together outvoting the two thirds of Tories still in the chamber. Once voted through, it was done, and we remained in office for six weeks and enjoyed our short spell in the sun until the next regular council meeting turfed us out and returned all the cabinet salaries to the chastened Tories.
I'd really like to meet the Man on the Clapham Omnibus.
Trouble is, these days he'd probably be a hipster plugged in with Apple pods listening to some godawful rubbish and would talk a stream of shite if you ever got chatting to him.
Or, these days, the hipster is more likely to dispense with the iPods and play it loudly on the bus and share the drivel with everyone else. Innit.
Have either of you actually been on the 88 recently, or is this just ill-informed chuntering?
I take it a few times a month, and haven't heard much godawful rubbish - and nor have I see anyone with an ipod (how retro!).
Mostly it's older people with some shopping, last week there were more teenagers (half term?). The two boys who sat in front of me had a discussion about whether a new bus stop was positioned in a sensible spot, and then started talking about driverless cars. They could almost have been PBers...
No, I live in the North East. I assumed the Clapham omnibus was merely a reference for public transport and this relatively modern phenomenon.
I Use public transport and have had the pleasure, from time to time, of other people sharing their music with me. Mind you people also do this when walking or cycling. Myself included. When I leave the house at 7 to cycle in I have Hotel California playing as I set off. Class.
I saw Shelagh Fogerty, used to be on the wireless for the BBC, grumbling bout it today on twitter with regards to her train home. She seemed more troubled by it than many people.
This is really the end result of the day: it simply couldn’t have gone better for Starmer given the very very difficult position he faced
Tell us again how bad this guy is at his job???
He's set a quite a precedent by bullying the Speaker into ignoring parliamentary procedure. If the (senior Lab MP) claims that he sent his heavy Sue in to threaten Hoyle's position are unfounded, it's probably worse. He's then basically bullied by proxy for islamists
Great short term result though..
Well everything at the moment is seen through the “isn’t SKS great?” lens, so everyone is spinning it as an excellent tactical victory. When his government is on the ropes it would be seen as probably a very different outcome, but hey ho.
I still maintain no one comes out of today particularly well.
I agree. Starmer has avoided what might have been a tactical defeat, but whether the strategic outcome goes for or against remains to be seen. Disillusion with all politicians won’t go to Labour’s benefit.
I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.
Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.
What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.
In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.
It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.
Everyone wants that.
'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?
I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.
Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.
What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.
In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.
It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.
Everyone wants that.
'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?
I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.
Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships
Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.
Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
The broad gauge was completely unnecessary - the engineering reasons behind the idea were wrong. Which is why no one else built 7 foot track.
The atmospheric railway was a predicted failure - x miles of leather exposed to the weather being banged around by the valve passing through at 40mph+
The steamships - especially the Great Eastern - were underpowered for their size. Which is why it was only after triple expansion came in that giant steamships worked.
He was, politically, a mad reactionary and his idea of industrial relations was feudalism, pretty much.
He was a great engineer in some ways, but his failings were huge.
Shall we talk about his insane locomotive designs for GWR? he was rescued by Gooch, otherwise the whole railway might have failed.
Broad gauge - I think it's clear (in hindsight) that a broader gauge than we have would be better.
Atmospheric railway - visionary, surely.
Ships - again visionary,
Locomotives - you're completely right that his designs were poor. He didn't persist with them.
On gauge - note that even for single purpose high speed lines, no one moved from the standard(s). The engineering reasons turned out to be wrong.
Visionary is all very well, but ignoring the practicalities until your shareholders lose their shirts….
Nobody chose an alternative gauge because of the disadvantage of non-interchangeability. There was a third rail for a while on some lines.
Tunnels etc were a big factor too.
Brunel has a nice statue - pride of place in Paddington. Hard to see him in his contemporaries eyes as other than a success.
That article also says that separately the Guardian has been leaked a recording of remarks made by the Post Office Deputy, CEO, Owen Woodley at a monthly town hall meeting for staff on Wednesday
In the recording Woodley referred to Staunton's claims in his interview with the Sunday Times as 'just wrong' and said that 'he should have resigned if he was told to delay compensation payments ' because that would have been outrageous
Woodley told post office staff 'many of the things that Staunton was talking about in that interview and the way he was putting things across, was wrong, its just wrong, and I don't not know why he chose to do that but that is what he did and he will account for why he chose to do that
He added ' none of us are aware of a single moment when we were asked to slow down compensation to post office operators, not once. There is no evidence of that at all
What a shambles . Ridiculous theatrics by the Tories to walk out . The SNP were understandably pissed off that their attempts to cause drama in Labour imploded .
The sum total Starmer avoided a rebellion and the Speaker is likely to resign .
That article also says that separately the Guardian has been leaked a recording of remarks made by the Post Office Deputy, CEO, Owen Woodley at a monthly town hall meeting for staff on Wednesday
In the recording Woodley referred to Staunton's claims in his interview with the Sunday Times as 'just wrong' and said that 'he should have resigned if he was told to delay compensation payments ' because that would have been outrageous
Woodley told post office staff 'many of the things that Staunton was talking about in that interview and the way he was putting things across, was wrong, its just wrong, and I don't not know why he chose to do that but that is what he did and he will account for why he chose to do that
He added ' none of us are aware of a single moment when we were asked to slow down compensation to post office operators, not once. There is no evidence of that at all
It’s certainly true that the Post Office didn’t really need telling to do anything slowly.
Nevertheless, Staunton is clearly an intelligent and experienced business guy, clued up enough to file memos to self about the conversations he had with government, and he couldn’t have known the circumstances in which he might need them. I’d expect he’s slanted his recollections to suit his current position, but would be very surprised if he had made the whole thing up.
Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?
Because everything is woke nowadays.
I seem to remember that blue top milk is woke these days - that news reached me today
Considering how blue top milk is real milk, I'd like to see the logic on that one.
I'd have thought soy "milk" would be considered woke if anything.
"There was me, that is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel, and my three droogs, that is Priti, Govie, and Dom, and we sat in the Kensington Milkbar trying to make up our Raab-oodocks what to do with the evening. The Kensington Milkbar sold Milk-plus, milk plus Corn Syrup or GM Soya or Chlorinated Chicken, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up, and make you ready for a bit of the old No-Deal Brexit."
Fun fact, if Liverpool beat Southampton next Wednesday in the FA Cup then the Merseyside derby scheduled for the middle of March will have to be rescheduled, and given the way Liverpool are likely to progress in the Europa League then it is very likely that Everton v Liverpool will be rescheduled for the final midweek of the season, so a Merseyside derby could determine the title and Everton's relegation.
What a match that would be 4 days before the end of the season.
Why would I think a bridge with trees and plants on it is woke?
Because everything is woke nowadays.
I seem to remember that blue top milk is woke these days - that news reached me today
Considering how blue top milk is real milk, I'd like to see the logic on that one.
I'd have thought soy "milk" would be considered woke if anything.
"There was me, that is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel, and my three droogs, that is Priti, Govie, and Dom, and we sat in the Kensington Milkbar trying to make up our Raab-oodocks what to do with the evening. The Kensington Milkbar sold Milk-plus, milk plus Corn Syrup or GM Soya or Chlorinated Chicken, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up, and make you ready for a bit of the old No-Deal Brexit."
Horrorshow (in the nicest possible sense of the word).
Fun fact, if Liverpool beat Southampton next Wednesday in the FA Cup then the Merseyside derby scheduled for the middle of March will have to be rescheduled, and given the way Liverpool are likely to progress in the Europa League then it is very likely that Everton v Liverpool will be rescheduled for the final midweek of the season, so a Merseyside derby could determine the title and Everton's relegation.
What a match that would be 4 days before the end of the season.
Still playing for Klopp, it seems, despite him being in the departure lounge. I thought there might be a drop off but not the case. Least not yet.
I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.
Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.
What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.
In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.
It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.
Everyone wants that.
'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?
I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.
Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.
What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.
In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.
It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.
Everyone wants that.
'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?
I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.
Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships
Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.
Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
I was having a conversation about giant, ocean going steam ships yesterday and how they worked.
Presumably they consumed an awful lot of water in the engine
Presumably they did not carry all that water and it came from the ocean, full of salt
Presumably that salt would ruin the engines in no time whatsoever
So how did it work ?
They pumped out the boilers now and then, and put fresh seawater in (sometimes a little of each often). Still, the salt and minerals tended to accumulate and screw up the heat transfer, so had to he cleaned out now and then.
Later on they distilled their own fresh water for the boilers. Edit: also condensed the steam from the propulsion cycle.
Jeez. It sounds like the wing simply.... fell apart
????
Is it wise of us to have a nuclear deterrent that is dependent upon another country? Is it in the US's interest for us to have a functioning system or would it be better that we didn't so we'd then be more reliant on Uncle Sam?
Personally, I have always felt we should have gone the French route, and developed our own truly indy deterrent. Expensive, but ultimately worth it
Instead we have ended up with a deterrent wholly dependent on the goodwill of an ally, who might be minded to tell us to fuck off, and now it seems it possibly doesn't work?
We should be urgently looking into the development of an entirely UK deterrent. Perhaps we could unite with Australia, as part of AUKUS, I dunno. They must fancy having a deterrent with China looming...
I agree, with the added thought that we should just abandon the strategic nuclear deterrent and invest in far cheaper tactical nuclear weapons, with various payloads and delivery systems, such as by air. These are independent, and are way scarier to dodgy dictators and bad regimes than a doomsday weapon that we'd only ever use when we've been obliterated in a nuclear strike, and then probably wouldn't work anyway.
How many dodgy regimes would believe we'd use even a tactical nuke? I certainly don't...
The point about tactical nukes is that you don't know whether someone will use them. You know that nobody is going to use Trident, which is a doomsday weapon. If you were Putin, would you be more scared to mount an invasion of the UK if we had Trident, or an undisclosed number of tactical nukes that could be deployed via a variety of methods, sea-borne, air-borne, etc.? We wouldn't use Trident against an invasion; it can only be used when the UK is a smouldering pile of irradiated ash. You could certainly use tactical nukes to destroy the invading Russian fleet in the port if you told them to bugger off and they weren't listening.
There’s a broader issue that needs to be addressed with Hoylegate. We’ve now reached the point where the threat of physical intimidation of MPs is starting to have an impact on the workings of the House of Commons. And we can’t have that. Again, someone has to draw a line. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1760388136381636904
Dan Hodges tweets, although tbh I'm not really sure what he is saying although I agree with him in a yes it's deplorable but what's the next step? kind of way.
There’s a broader issue that needs to be addressed with Hoylegate. We’ve now reached the point where the threat of physical intimidation of MPs is starting to have an impact on the workings of the House of Commons. And we can’t have that. Again, someone has to draw a line. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1760388136381636904
Dan Hodges tweets, although tbh I'm not really sure what he is saying although I agree with him in a yes it's deplorable but what's the next step? kind of way.
Anyone who intimidates an MP in any way whatsoever including asking them if they think Starmer is a good leader to be forced to listen to Donald Trump's speeches on a loop for 72 hours.
Survivors will then be given a free pardon and told not to do it again.
I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.
Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.
What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.
In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.
It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.
Everyone wants that.
'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?
I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
I doubt either can realistically claim much credit. Do tell us about the detail.
Yes I accept in the round that's probably a fair rebuttal. Consider my partisanship on this noted and understood.
What would you like to know? The whole project itself is pretty cool and virtually unique in terms of what they are doing to get it working "down there". The majority of the Central Line is done, platforms having a lot of bands deployed, including the entire spectrum allocation for O2, EE, Vodafone, Three, so you can get some crazy good speeds on the platforms from the DAS, 700+ Mbps.
In tunnel they use a leaky feeder, split into two parts, one going to the platforms at either end, in there the MNOs have fewer bands deployed because they don't travel as well but you'll still get 200Mbps easily.
It's really incredible thus far where it's done. It's a shame it's been so delayed and has had so many issues, including interfering with the signalling so it got paused for some time. But it's progressing slowly now, with Piccadilly and Victoria Lines to come next.
Very interesting. It sounds like there's work there, that, as an expert, you're proud of.
Everyone wants that.
'Shame', 'Progressing slowly' ... etc. What's going wrong there?
I walk past the statue of Brunel on Paddington station quite frequently - I never pass it without a thought in his direction.
Brunel is, in many ways, a harbinger of much that goes wrong in this country.
Unique, pointless “solutions” that fail - the broad gauge, atmospheric railway and giant underpowered steamships
Autocratic management, terrible industrial relations and an inability to work with others.
Complete nonsense. If you have the slightest understanding of engineering then you'd see him as a genius. The rest is nonsense too - there may be some mix up with his father. But, really, compete nonsense.
I was having a conversation about giant, ocean going steam ships yesterday and how they worked.
Presumably they consumed an awful lot of water in the engine
Presumably they did not carry all that water and it came from the ocean, full of salt
Presumably that salt would ruin the engines in no time whatsoever
So how did it work ?
They pumped out the boilers now and then, and put fresh seawater in (sometimes a little of each often). Still, the salt and minerals tended to accumulate and screw up the heat transfer, so had to he cleaned out now and then.
Later on they distilled their own fresh water for the boilers. Edit: also condensed the steam from the propulsion cycle.
Sea water boilers were fun all right.
By the end of the steam age, the high pressures meant they ran on extremely pure water. High pressure and temperature water is extremely corrosive if not very very pure.
One of the reasons that the big American carriers are useful in disaster relief is their enormous water distilling capacity
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
Which way did SKS vote on the Ceasefire amendment?
There was no vote
Exactly
I believe technically there was a vote and it was unanimously Aye. A unanimous vote can be a vote for either Aye or Nay, so its still a vote.
There was no division, that's a different thing.
I definitely heard "Noes" on the TV. Was a bit surprised when no division was called. Winterton seemed reluctant to countenance a division when she put the question tbh...
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
the 20mph rule cannot even be claimed to be "green" given it uses more fuel at that speed than at 30mph for the same distance.
Fun fact, if Liverpool beat Southampton next Wednesday in the FA Cup then the Merseyside derby scheduled for the middle of March will have to be rescheduled, and given the way Liverpool are likely to progress in the Europa League then it is very likely that Everton v Liverpool will be rescheduled for the final midweek of the season, so a Merseyside derby could determine the title and Everton's relegation.
What a match that would be 4 days before the end of the season.
TSE...this must be the nerdiest, footie geekiest post on pbCOM ever. Fantastic. Have you taken an IQ test? It must be stratospherically high because only some with an IQ level of something over 200 could work this one out....
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
Fun fact, if Liverpool beat Southampton next Wednesday in the FA Cup then the Merseyside derby scheduled for the middle of March will have to be rescheduled, and given the way Liverpool are likely to progress in the Europa League then it is very likely that Everton v Liverpool will be rescheduled for the final midweek of the season, so a Merseyside derby could determine the title and Everton's relegation.
What a match that would be 4 days before the end of the season.
TSE...this must be the nerdiest, footie geekiest post on pbCOM ever. Fantastic. Have you taken an IQ test? It must be stratospherically high because only some with an IQ level of something over 200 could work this one out....
I've had IQ tests, I am in the top 1%.
@tlg86 and I are rather obsessed with Premier League TV picks and fixtures, quite a few of us are aware of this possibility happening for a while.
There’s a broader issue that needs to be addressed with Hoylegate. We’ve now reached the point where the threat of physical intimidation of MPs is starting to have an impact on the workings of the House of Commons. And we can’t have that. Again, someone has to draw a line. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1760388136381636904
Dan Hodges tweets, although tbh I'm not really sure what he is saying although I agree with him in a yes it's deplorable but what's the next step? kind of way.
General rule: Statements including the words 'something', 'someone' and 'somehow' rarely advance understanding.
The standard template from which to expand is a bit like this: 'X is wrong, someone should somehow do something'.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
There’s a broader issue that needs to be addressed with Hoylegate. We’ve now reached the point where the threat of physical intimidation of MPs is starting to have an impact on the workings of the House of Commons. And we can’t have that. Again, someone has to draw a line. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1760388136381636904
Dan Hodges tweets, although tbh I'm not really sure what he is saying although I agree with him in a yes it's deplorable but what's the next step? kind of way.
Another new 'precedent'. Even if I largely think Westminster is a load of wank, I don't think putting the thumb on the scales of parliamentary procedure in the face of physical intimdation is a desirable precedent to set. Whoever thought that one up (was it Hoyle?) should get their jotters.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
the 20mph rule cannot even be claimed to be "green" given it uses more fuel at that speed than at 30mph for the same distance.
Nonsense. 20mph is more efficient simply because it reduces the amount of acceleration and deacceleration required during normal driving conditions.
And that's without taking into account the additional time you have to anticipate junctions, pedestrians, sheep etc
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
Mike Johnson invoked God in a GOP presentation on keeping the majority. It didn’t land well. https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/02/21/congress/johnsons-sermon-to-gop-retreagt-00142436 ...The Louisiana Republican showed slides to the members of his Elected Leadership Committee (ELC) team in a bid to tout the party’s prospects of hanging onto its two-seat majority in November. Johnson, a devout Christian, attempted to rally the group by discussing moral decline in America — focusing on declining church membership and the nation’s shrinking religious identity, according to both people in the room.
The speaker contended that when one doesn’t have God in their life, the government or “state” will become their guide, referring back to Bible verses, both people said. They added that the approach fell flat among some in the room.
“I’m not at church,” one of the people said, describing Johnson’s presentation as “horrible.”..
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
Average speeds have dropped. The policy has, at the very least, been a partial success.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
Average speeds have dropped. The policy has, at the very least, been a partial success.
If they have dropped but gone from being below the speed limit on average to being well above it on average, that is *not* a success. It brings speed limits into disrepute - and then where they *are* needed makes them less effective.
We come back to the point of the article you posted when we discussed this before - such things need to be brought in carefully, thoughtfully, over time and with full community engagement. Not imposed in a rush of blood as political manoeuvre by a bunch of drunks on the periphery of the country.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
Don't misunderestimate a lawyer.
"Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished." – Jeremy Bentham
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
The SNP clearly brought the motion as a means to embarrass Labour. The Government motion wasn't greatly distinguishable from the Labour one. And the procedural wrangling obfuscated any useful debate on Gaza itself.
What a shambles . Ridiculous theatrics by the Tories to walk out . The SNP were understandably pissed off that their attempts to cause drama in Labour imploded .
The sum total Starmer avoided a rebellion and the Speaker is likely to resign .
Labour wanted to avoid division within the party
They avoided a division on their amendment as well.
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
the 20mph rule cannot even be claimed to be "green" given it uses more fuel at that speed than at 30mph for the same distance.
Nonsense. 20mph is more efficient simply because it reduces the amount of acceleration and deacceleration required during normal driving conditions.
And that's without taking into account the additional time you have to anticipate junctions, pedestrians, sheep etc
And double parking bottlenecks. Makes for much smoother driving around me. Like zen for cars. I’m a convert.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
Don't misunderestimate a lawyer.
"You know your in trouble when your told to stop slouching.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Indeed!Well said Big G.
Though I have to say I thought Penny came out of it all rather gloriously.
Today, her speech was "look what you could have won" moment for the Tories lol!
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Isn't that democracy in action?
You clearly did not watch the debate and aftermath live on tv
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
Average speeds have dropped. The policy has, at the very least, been a partial success.
If they have dropped but gone from being below the speed limit on average to being well above it on average, that is *not* a success. It brings speed limits into disrepute - and then where they *are* needed makes them less effective.
We come back to the point of the article you posted when we discussed this before - such things need to be brought in carefully, thoughtfully, over time and with full community engagement. Not imposed in a rush of blood as political manoeuvre by a bunch of drunks on the periphery of the country.
Of course it is. It means that fewer people will be killed and injured. In Edinburgh, the biggest beneficiary was car owners themselves - the number of collisions dropped dramatically, saving everyone money. Sadly, the Facebook cohort aren't interested in evidence from elsewhere in the UK.
I think you're arguing for more enforcement of the limit? If so, perhaps set up a petition on the Welsh Government website?
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
The SNP clearly brought the motion as a means to embarrass Labour. The Government motion wasn't greatly distinguishable from the Labour one. And the procedural wrangling obfuscated any useful debate on Gaza itself.
When Parliament was first broadcast MPs rose to the occasion. The 1979 VONC, 1983 Falklands Saturday emergency debate, Thatcher's 1991 valediction ('Go on, I'm enjoying this'). Today's chienlit shows how far they've fallen, back to the worst days of the 2017 Parliament.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
the 20mph rule cannot even be claimed to be "green" given it uses more fuel at that speed than at 30mph for the same distance.
Nonsense. 20mph is more efficient simply because it reduces the amount of acceleration and deacceleration required during normal driving conditions.
And that's without taking into account the additional time you have to anticipate junctions, pedestrians, sheep etc
And double parking bottlenecks. Makes for much smoother driving around me. Like zen for cars. I’m a convert.
Yep. I instinctively drive at 20mph in any built up area now. 30mph just feels too hectic.
If you watched the commons, no one looked good today. Personally, I take a particular dim view at those using the Gaza issue to score some advantage over another party. They will obviously deny it, but it was pretty obvious who they were. Hoyle for all his faults was not one of those.
If politicians are wise, they will swiftly move on.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
It has very different road conditions and much fewer cyclists
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
'These people are very angry that Chi Onwurah MP has condemned Hamas. So they went to her office to bang on the door and shout for terrorists.
They first targeted her surgery. She cancelled it.
If you don’t stand up to the enemies of democracy, it will only get worse'
WTF Who doesn't condemn Hamas ?
The pro Palestine mob. It's clear that MPs are increasingly having to consider the intimidation they face when deciding how to vote in parliament. You'd think some people would be concerned by this.
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
the 20mph rule cannot even be claimed to be "green" given it uses more fuel at that speed than at 30mph for the same distance.
Nonsense. 20mph is more efficient simply because it reduces the amount of acceleration and deacceleration required during normal driving conditions.
And that's without taking into account the additional time you have to anticipate junctions, pedestrians, sheep etc
And double parking bottlenecks. Makes for much smoother driving around me. Like zen for cars. I’m a convert.
Yep. I instinctively drive at 20mph in any built up area now. 30mph just feels too hectic.
Yeah, 30mph feels ludicrously quick to drive around residential streets now. It’s remarkable how quickly you get used to 20mph.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
It has very different road conditions and much fewer cyclists
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
It's much more likely to be raining - is that what you mean? Stopping distances are more than double in the wet.
'These people are very angry that Chi Onwurah MP has condemned Hamas. So they went to her office to bang on the door and shout for terrorists.
They first targeted her surgery. She cancelled it.
If you don’t stand up to the enemies of democracy, it will only get worse'
WTF Who doesn't condemn Hamas ?
The pro Palestine mob. It's clear that MPs are increasingly having to consider the intimidation they face when deciding how to vote in parliament. You'd think some people would be concerned by this.
Perhaps you can direct us to your posts making this point when MPs were threatened by extreme Brexiteers in the 2017-19 Parliament.
I know a few who were told they would be Jo Cox'd if they didn't vote to Leave with no deal.
In both instances it is wrong but you're lumping anyone who is concerned about the events in Palestine as the pro Palestine Mob is shameful.
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
the 20mph rule cannot even be claimed to be "green" given it uses more fuel at that speed than at 30mph for the same distance.
Nonsense. 20mph is more efficient simply because it reduces the amount of acceleration and deacceleration required during normal driving conditions.
And that's without taking into account the additional time you have to anticipate junctions, pedestrians, sheep etc
And double parking bottlenecks. Makes for much smoother driving around me. Like zen for cars. I’m a convert.
Yep. I instinctively drive at 20mph in any built up area now. 30mph just feels too hectic.
Yeah, 30mph feels ludicrously quick to drive around residential streets now. It’s remarkable how quickly you get used to 20mph.
It's an age thing. Never glad confident motoring again.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Isn't that democracy in action?
You clearly did not watch the debate and aftermath live on tv
No. As I said downthread I was in the pub.
I suggest that it was SNP and Conservative members throwing their toys out of the pram that have caused any debasing, rather than Mr Speaker allowing a vote.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
It has very different road conditions and much fewer cyclists
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
It's much more likely to be raining - is that what you mean? Stopping distances are more than double in the wet.
If you watched the commons, no one looked good today. Personally, I take a particular dim view at those using the Gaza issue to score some advantage over another party. They will obviously deny it, but it was pretty obvious who they were. Hoyle for all his faults was not one of those.
If politicians are wise, they will swiftly move on.
I know they are only few, but the Lib Dems behaved absolutely correctly throughout the whole thing, put down their own amendment but were gracious (and unsurprised) when it wasn’t moved, and confirmed early on that they would vote for any sensible motion that was supportive of a long term solution to the conflict.
Layla Moran has been excellent throughout the Israel-Gaza conflict.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Isn't that democracy in action?
You clearly did not watch the debate and aftermath live on tv
No. As I said downthread I was in the pub.
I suggest that it was SNP and Conservative members throwing their toys out of the pram that have caused any debasing, rather than Mr Speaker allowing a vote.
It is possible that the SNP, Tories, and the Speaker have all caused the debasing.
The letter from the Clerk of the Commons was damning for the Speaker.
Do we think the no confidence motion in the Speeker is likely to be carried?
I don't think so, I am fully expecting Sir Lindsay to announce he will stand down at the election though.
Hmm... If the Tories think that's likely, wouldn't it make sense to carry the no confidence motion so they can get their preferred candidate into the Chair while they have a majority?
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Do we think the no confidence motion in the Speeker is likely to be carried?
I don't think so, I am fully expecting Sir Lindsay to announce he will stand down at the election though.
Hmm... If the Tories think that's likely, wouldn't it make sense to carry the no confidence motion so they can get their preferred candidate into the Chair while they have a majority?
There is a lot of affection for the Speaker on a personal level, so that should save him from being ousted.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Isn't that democracy in action?
You clearly did not watch the debate and aftermath live on tv
No. As I said downthread I was in the pub.
I suggest that it was SNP and Conservative members throwing their toys out of the pram that have caused any debasing, rather than Mr Speaker allowing a vote.
It is possible that the SNP, Tories, and the Speaker have all caused the debasing.
The letter from the Clerk of the Commons was damning for the Speaker.
It might possibly not have dawned on you that the SNP were upset at not being permitted to follow the rules in the first place.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
It has very different road conditions and much fewer cyclists
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
It's much more likely to be raining - is that what you mean? Stopping distances are more than double in the wet.
No point in arguing with a closed mind
Fortunately the Welsh government and local authorities are not of a closed mind and as I have repeatedly said the limits are under review
The silly thing about this is that I do agree 20mph zones are sensible in some locations but it is clear a blanket Iill thought out reduction from 30 to 20 was not the way to win over the public
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Isn't that democracy in action?
You clearly did not watch the debate and aftermath live on tv
No. As I said downthread I was in the pub.
I suggest that it was SNP and Conservative members throwing their toys out of the pram that have caused any debasing, rather than Mr Speaker allowing a vote.
It is possible that the SNP, Tories, and the Speaker have all caused the debasing.
The letter from the Clerk of the Commons was damning for the Speaker.
I find it unacceptable when MPs are denied the opportunity to vote on any proposed amendment.
Too much power in the hands of the speaker to pick and choose.
I'm amazed that the none of the consultations Labour said they were having with the SNP over their amendment didn't bear sensible fruit. There were consultations, right?
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Well, the point was, and this is why it descended into farce, absolutely nothing was at stake. Despite the seriousness of the underlying issue.
The SNP put forward a motion calling for a ceasefire whose text was deliberately designed to make it difficult for Labour or the government to support, leaving out obligations on Hamas to make it happen.
Safe in the knowledge that even if it were adopted it was an entirely empty gesture with no consequences because neither Hamas nor Netanyahu give a fig.
Labour saw the trap coming a mile off, so put forward its own amendment create a wording they could support - though still ultimately with no bearing on what happens in Gaza.
The Tories, not wanting Labour to escape embarrassment, tabled their own - as procedure would ordinary rule out the Labour one from being considered, and put Labour back in the SNP trap.
The speaker then rendered it moot by calling both, which had the lucky (or neat if you're cynical) side effect of helping Labour out of the jam.
The reason there was so much gameplaying from all is precisely because nothing was at stake other than what each party could shout at each other when campaigning. Hence why you ended up with three motions saying close to the same thing (a ceasefire would be great please), but each semantically designed to be awkward to the other parties.
If lots had actually been at stake - say we were voting on whether to send direct military assistance or being part of a peacekeeping force - then there would have been no mucking about as each would have a clear rather than a semantic choice to make over something that was actually going to happen, and whose results you'd be judged on.
Instead of looking like a divided party, it looks united and the Conservatives now look split and divided on the issue.
...and the SNP now appear to be colluding with the Tories. Perfect day for Starmer.
A quiet few beers and perhaps a cheeky korma for SKS and team this evening
I seem to remember someone on this very site loudly berating KS for being useless and vacillating and weak on this issue. And yet, at the end of the day, the Labour amendment (that *someone* was briefing against to the press - a line swallowed by all and sundry) passes. Funny old world.
SKS fans - please don't gloat.
Too much.
Nobody comes out of today with any credit whatsoever
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
Parliament debased by allowing MPs to vote on an amendment.
Isn't that democracy in action?
You clearly did not watch the debate and aftermath live on tv
No. As I said downthread I was in the pub.
I suggest that it was SNP and Conservative members throwing their toys out of the pram that have caused any debasing, rather than Mr Speaker allowing a vote.
It is possible that the SNP, Tories, and the Speaker have all caused the debasing.
The letter from the Clerk of the Commons was damning for the Speaker.
It might possibly not have dawned on you that the SNP were upset at not being permitted to follow the rules in the first place.
ITV reporting it is the SNP who have a justifiable complaint as it was their day and it will only lead into a debate in Scotland that the English (word used) in Westminster have no interest in Scotland
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
It has very different road conditions and much fewer cyclists
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
It's much more likely to be raining - is that what you mean? Stopping distances are more than double in the wet.
The truth is, even if locals adhere to it the odds are English visitors, who must make up half of drivers, will very probably not follow it rigidly because they will simply forget what the limit is.
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
We’ve had universal 20mph in north London for a while now. You get used to it, and come to prefer it.
Wales is not a City and to compare it with it is a total misunderstanding of our Country
Does Wales have different laws of physics/reaction times to the rest of the country?
It has very different road conditions and much fewer cyclists
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
It's much more likely to be raining - is that what you mean? Stopping distances are more than double in the wet.
No point in arguing with a closed mind
Fortunately the Welsh government and local authorities are not of a closed mind and as I have repeatedly said the limits are under review
The silly thing about this is that I do agree 20mph zones are sensible in some locations but it is clear a blanket Iill thought out reduction from 30 to 20 was not the way to win over the public
Edinburgh did a review too and ended up expanding the 20mph zone That's the problem with evidence-based policy.
Another important element is clarity and simplicity - from what I can see online, one major issue is that the speed limits in Wales chop around from 60 - 40 - 20 - 40 - 60, etc. A blanket 20mph in urban areas would be cheaper to implement and fairer on motorists.
Comments
I prefer to call it incentive based decision making.
Oh sorry.. blackmail
I wonder what the record is for that particular statistic? Must be a reasonable chance Liverpool break that record this season at this rate.
I Use public transport and have had the pleasure, from time to time, of other people sharing their music with me. Mind you people also do this when walking or cycling. Myself included. When I leave the house at 7 to cycle in I have Hotel California playing as I set off. Class.
I saw Shelagh Fogerty, used to be on the wireless for the BBC, grumbling bout it today on twitter with regards to her train home. She seemed more troubled by it than many people.
Tunnels etc were a big factor too.
Brunel has a nice statue - pride of place in Paddington. Hard to see him in his contemporaries eyes as other than a success.
In the recording Woodley referred to Staunton's claims in his interview with the Sunday Times as 'just wrong' and said that 'he should have resigned if he was told to delay compensation payments ' because that would have been outrageous
Woodley told post office staff 'many of the things that Staunton was talking about in that interview and the way he was putting things across, was wrong, its just wrong, and I don't not know why he chose to do that but that is what he did and he will account for why he chose to do that
He added ' none of us are aware of a single moment when we were asked to slow down compensation to post office operators, not once. There is no evidence of that at all
MK Dons? Watford? - only ones I can think of nearby.
There was no division, that's a different thing.
The sum total Starmer avoided a rebellion and the Speaker is likely to resign .
Nevertheless, Staunton is clearly an intelligent and experienced business guy, clued up enough to file memos to self about the conversations he had with government, and he couldn’t have known the circumstances in which he might need them. I’d expect he’s slanted his recollections to suit his current position, but would be very surprised if he had made the whole thing up.
What a match that would be 4 days before the end of the season.
Later on they distilled their own fresh water for the boilers. Edit: also condensed the steam from the propulsion cycle.
Or to be exact - two nobodies.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1760388136381636904
Dan Hodges tweets, although tbh I'm not really sure what he is saying although I agree with him in a yes it's deplorable but what's the next step? kind of way.
As a frequent visitor I'm mainly hoping that they'll at least consider backtracking on the 20mph nonsense (or at least think about it)?
Survivors will then be given a free pardon and told not to do it again.
By the end of the steam age, the high pressures meant they ran on extremely pure water. High pressure and temperature water is extremely corrosive if not very very pure.
One of the reasons that the big American carriers are useful in disaster relief is their enormous water distilling capacity
20mph nonsense has been hailed as a big success because everyone's ignoring it but not by quite as much as expected.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68348709
Meanwhile, the minister concerned, Lee Waters (whom I keep confusing with Lee Anderson) bleats that people saying he should have actually done more consulting and given more thought to the issues a blanket 20mph would cause is being unfair because reasons.
It doesn't by the way mean they are not nobodies
If they wanted to go down this route, it would have been better to abolish a default speed limit in urban areas and put signs all through showing what's been decided on.
@tlg86 and I are rather obsessed with Premier League TV picks and fixtures, quite a few of us are aware of this possibility happening for a while.
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2024/02/merseyside-derby-could-move-to-final-week-of-2023-24-premer-league-season/
The standard template from which to expand is a bit like this: 'X is wrong, someone should somehow do something'.
Even if I largely think Westminster is a load of wank, I don't think putting the thumb on the scales of parliamentary procedure in the face of physical intimdation is a desirable precedent to set. Whoever thought that one up (was it Hoyle?) should get their jotters.
Too much.
And that's without taking into account the additional time you have to anticipate junctions, pedestrians, sheep etc
https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/02/21/congress/johnsons-sermon-to-gop-retreagt-00142436
...The Louisiana Republican showed slides to the members of his Elected Leadership Committee (ELC) team in a bid to tout the party’s prospects of hanging onto its two-seat majority in November. Johnson, a devout Christian, attempted to rally the group by discussing moral decline in America — focusing on declining church membership and the nation’s shrinking religious identity, according to both people in the room.
The speaker contended that when one doesn’t have God in their life, the government or “state” will become their guide, referring back to Bible verses, both people said. They added that the approach fell flat among some in the room.
“I’m not at church,” one of the people said, describing Johnson’s presentation as “horrible.”..
We come back to the point of the article you posted when we discussed this before - such things need to be brought in carefully, thoughtfully, over time and with full community engagement. Not imposed in a rush of blood as political manoeuvre by a bunch of drunks on the periphery of the country.
Collectively they have debased parliament and democracy
Today is a shameful day in our political history when you consider what was at stake
The SNP clearly brought the motion as a means to embarrass Labour. The Government motion wasn't greatly distinguishable from the Labour one. And the procedural wrangling obfuscated any useful debate on Gaza itself.
And Hoyle will probably survive.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/21/commons-speaker-issues-apology-after-gaza-ceasefire-debate-descends-into-chaos
...One minister admitted: “We’re not as angry as we’re pretending.”..
Performative nonsense all round.
They avoided a division on their amendment as well.
'These people are very angry that Chi Onwurah MP has condemned Hamas. So they went to her office to bang on the door and shout for terrorists.
They first targeted her surgery. She cancelled it.
If you don’t stand up to the enemies of democracy, it will only get worse'
By the hunchback of Notre Dame"
- Rochdale MP to be February 2024
Isn't that democracy in action?
Who doesn't condemn Hamas ?
(Or, for that matter, Netanyahu.)
Though I have to say I thought Penny came out of it all rather gloriously.
Today, her speech was "look what you could have won" moment for the Tories lol!
FT
I think you're arguing for more enforcement of the limit? If so, perhaps set up a petition on the Welsh Government website?
If politicians are wise, they will swiftly move on.
Anyway, it is being reviewed and hopefully the limits adjusted as needed
Broke into Land of My Fathers on Peston’s Twitter break. Lord Kinnock notably impressed.
I know a few who were told they would be Jo Cox'd if they didn't vote to Leave with no deal.
In both instances it is wrong but you're lumping anyone who is concerned about the events in Palestine as the pro Palestine Mob is shameful.
Benjamin Disraeli
I suggest that it was SNP and Conservative members throwing their toys out of the pram that have caused any debasing, rather than Mr Speaker allowing a vote.
Layla Moran has been excellent throughout the Israel-Gaza conflict.
The letter from the Clerk of the Commons was damning for the Speaker.
The government were upset that Labour weren't embarrassed as planned. That's hardly a matter of high principle.
Jake Paul
Fortunately the Welsh government and local authorities are not of a closed mind and as I have repeatedly said the limits are under review
The silly thing about this is that I do agree 20mph zones are sensible in some locations but it is clear a blanket Iill thought out reduction from 30 to 20 was not the way to win over the public
Too much power in the hands of the speaker to pick and choose.
But that's just me.
The SNP put forward a motion calling for a ceasefire whose text was deliberately designed to make it difficult for Labour or the government to support, leaving out obligations on Hamas to make it happen.
Safe in the knowledge that even if it were adopted it was an entirely empty gesture with no consequences because neither Hamas nor Netanyahu give a fig.
Labour saw the trap coming a mile off, so put forward its own amendment create a wording they could support - though still ultimately with no bearing on what happens in Gaza.
The Tories, not wanting Labour to escape embarrassment, tabled their own - as procedure would ordinary rule out the Labour one from being considered, and put Labour back in the SNP trap.
The speaker then rendered it moot by calling both, which had the lucky (or neat if you're cynical) side effect of helping Labour out of the jam.
The reason there was so much gameplaying from all is precisely because nothing was at stake other than what each party could shout at each other when campaigning. Hence why you ended up with three motions saying close to the same thing (a ceasefire would be great please), but each semantically designed to be awkward to the other parties.
If lots had actually been at stake - say we were voting on whether to send direct military assistance or being part of a peacekeeping force - then there would have been no mucking about as each would have a clear rather than a semantic choice to make over something that was actually going to happen, and whose results you'd be judged on.
Another important element is clarity and simplicity - from what I can see online, one major issue is that the speed limits in Wales chop around from 60 - 40 - 20 - 40 - 60, etc. A blanket 20mph in urban areas would be cheaper to implement and fairer on motorists.