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How many Tory by-election losses will revert back at GE2024? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited March 12 in General
imageHow many Tory by-election losses will revert back at GE2024? – politicalbetting.com

Table from Wikipedia

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  • Honourable first.
  • If the Tories pick Helen Harrison as their candidate in Wellingborough then Labour are holding the seat at the general election.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,164
    genuine first
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,793
    First Like Richi...
  • Honestly getting firsts here is harder than getting firsts at University of Oxford.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,956

    If the Tories pick Helen Harrison as their candidate in Wellingborough then Labour are holding the seat at the general election.

    Yes. Much may depend on the candidates chosen.

    But also, it's one way of opening up a safe seat to a bright young thing who could be a future Prime Minister. Might be worth returning to these seats (or whichever seats they're mostly in) after the general election.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,169
    IanB2 said:

    genuine first

    Genuine Lib Dem first.
  • That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464
    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,774

    That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    Tractor porn? I thought that was a new one but it does seem to ring a vague bell.

    Please explain?
  • Honestly getting firsts here is harder than getting firsts at University of Oxford.

    95 per cent Firsts and Upper Seconds.
  • Special forces blocked UK resettlement applications from elite Afghan troops
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68332923

    Things that make you go hmm.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,443
    edited February 19
    OGH: "My guess is that three or four of the above will be won back."

    Perhaps more? Many of the Lab and LD wins were in very safe seats that you would normally expect the Tories to hold, even if they have a terrible general election result.

    When it comes to holding a by-election gain, does it help to have the by-election a long time before the general election, so the winning MP has plenty of time to become known locally, or does it help to have it only a short time before the by-election, so the memories of the by-election campaign are fresher in people's minds?

    If we look at the 1997 general, as a comparable period, the LibDems held Newbury but lost Christchurch, both by-elections very early in the Parliament. Labour held Wirral South, which was the last by-election of the Parliament. This is, clearly, a small sample size!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    Not many.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,468
    edited February 19

    That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    Tractor porn? I thought that was a new one but it does seem to ring a vague bell.

    Please explain?
    They do blur in the memory, it must be said. There have been so many of late.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/neil-parish-banged-up-tractor-porn-b2439583.html
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    FPT - took a while to type, shame to waste it:

    At one stage of my life I had unpleasant and difficult-to-deal with financial problems and I frequently had dreams where I was naked in public.
    Then I got everything sorted and those dreams stopped.

    From time to time I have 'failed to hand in work for a course' dreams and also 'naked but hoping no one will notice' dreams.

    The former are easy to explain (imo) as that was my normal state throughout my undistinguished academic career.

    The latter are much more puzzling as I have never been in such a situation outside of my dreams.

    When you think about it the whole nudity taboo/embarrassment thing is deeply weird. At what point in our evolution did humans become ashamed of their bodies, and why? (I'm going to discount the explanation in Genesis, intriguing though it is.)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,956
    Is Hartlepool a gimme for Labour at the next GE?
  • That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    Tractor porn? I thought that was a new one but it does seem to ring a vague bell.

    Please explain?
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/wife-tractor-porn-mp-neil-parish-oversexed/
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,543
    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 609
    edited February 19

    That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    Also the 18(!) who are still sitting in parliament as independents after having been chucked out of their party. There haven't been so many independents since the late 1940s, I think...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,443

    That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    It does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_by-elections_(2010–present)

    It was cropped for the picture.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,877

    Is Hartlepool a gimme for Labour at the next GE?

    Yes. Captured by the Tories at peak Boris.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,765
    edited February 19
    AlsoLei said:

    That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    Also the 18(!) who are still sitting in parliament as independents after having been chucked out of their party. There haven't been so many since the late 1940s, I think...
    I’d say it’s not been that many since 2019.
  • That Wiki list should have a column explaining why there was a by-election would be hysterical.

    Inter alia, watching tractor porn, having a hissy fit that you weren't given a peerage, waving your cock in an underling's face, groping somebody and the PM lied to cover your arse and it saw the PM rightly ousted, lying to the Mother of Parliaments about partying during Covid-19.

    It does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_by-elections_(2010–present)

    It was cropped for the picture.
    Ah.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Is Hartlepool a gimme for Labour at the next GE?

    Yes. Captured by the Tories at peak Boris.
    It should have been captured in 2019 but Reform did stand in the constituency.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,956

    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
    Labour were second in the Shropshire seat at the 2019GE, so, if the Tories have a terrible night, but the Lib Dems, not a great one, perhaps Labour would have a chance.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,774
    The articles linked above imply that Parish was sacked for viewing standard porn rather than porn with an explicit farming equipment theme. The tractor link comes from his explanation: that he accidentally visited a porn site while shopping for a new tractor. An important clarification.

    Funny old world.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,920

    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
    Who will be the Portillo of 2025? Rabbit is convinced it won't be a Tory, it will be Thangam Debonaire.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492

    The articles linked above imply that Parish was sacked for viewing standard porn rather than porn with an explicit farming equipment theme. The tractor link comes from his explanation: that he accidentally visited a porn site while shopping for a new tractor. An important clarification.

    Funny old world.

    It must have been a harrowing experience for him.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,443
    To date, a majority of the by-elections in this period have seen a change in the winning party. 12 changed hands (7 Lab gains, 4 LD, 1 Con), 9 were held (5 Lab, 3 Con, 1 SNP). I wondered if that had ever happened before. It was close in 1992-7 Parliament, when it was split equally: half held, half changed hands. A quick perusal on Wikipedia suggests that the closest in history.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,334
    "I’d spoil my ballot if I was voting in Rochdale, says ‘ashamed’ Wes Streeting

    Shadow health secretary apologises to supporters in town following suspension of the party’s candidate in an anti-Semitism row"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/02/19/i-would-spoil-rochdale-by-election-ballot-says-streeting/
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,452
    FPT: viewcode asked: "So Initiative 200 (affirmative action bad) passed, but Initiative 1000 (affirmative action good!) then passed, but Referendum 88 (Initiative 1000 bad!) then passed. Presumably this means that Initiative 200 is still in effect?"

    Right. The leaders of Referendum 88 were not prominent polticians, but ordinary citizens. The most prominent were often Japanese-Americans.

    But I will repeat that I think it nearly certain that parts of the state government have found ways to get around our civil rights laws.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388

    The articles linked above imply that Parish was sacked for viewing standard porn rather than porn with an explicit farming equipment theme. The tractor link comes from his explanation: that he accidentally visited a porn site while shopping for a new tractor. An important clarification.

    Funny old world.

    It must have been a harrowing experience for him.
    He ploughed on with that story.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464

    FPT - took a while to type, shame to waste it:

    At one stage of my life I had unpleasant and difficult-to-deal with financial problems and I frequently had dreams where I was naked in public.
    Then I got everything sorted and those dreams stopped.

    From time to time I have 'failed to hand in work for a course' dreams and also 'naked but hoping no one will notice' dreams.

    The former are easy to explain (imo) as that was my normal state throughout my undistinguished academic career.

    The latter are much more puzzling as I have never been in such a situation outside of my dreams.

    When you think about it the whole nudity taboo/embarrassment thing is deeply weird. At what point in our evolution did humans become ashamed of their bodies, and why? (I'm going to discount the explanation in Genesis, intriguing though it is.)

    That’s a profound question

    I believe the Freudian explanation is this: we originally went naked - of course - and lived in climates suitable for that. Africa, the tropics, then we emigrated to colder or harsher climates and began to wear furs. Then these became ways of displaying status and also of hiding our most important bits!

    Humans began to find the process itself erotic. The unveiling. So they deliberately made more and more veils so that the privilege of taking them off would become evermore exciting

    Imagine you live in a deeply conservative Islamic country and never see a bare ankle. A knee would drive you wild. So an entirely naked woman will be sensationally arousing - so we deliberately starve ourselves to enioy the feast, is the theory, and we also eroticise what is already necessary - clothing

    See shoes. We need shoes. Even in Africa shoes are generally better than no shoes. But my god we have eroticised footwear, universally
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Foxy said:

    The articles linked above imply that Parish was sacked for viewing standard porn rather than porn with an explicit farming equipment theme. The tractor link comes from his explanation: that he accidentally visited a porn site while shopping for a new tractor. An important clarification.

    Funny old world.

    It must have been a harrowing experience for him.
    He ploughed on with that story.
    Should be more careful when you search for muck spreader.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,774
    Foxy said:

    The articles linked above imply that Parish was sacked for viewing standard porn rather than porn with an explicit farming equipment theme. The tractor link comes from his explanation: that he accidentally visited a porn site while shopping for a new tractor. An important clarification.

    Funny old world.

    It must have been a harrowing experience for him.
    He ploughed on with that story.
    Some say he reaped what he had sown.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 332
    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night.

    Both Tiverton & Honiton and Somerton & Frome are being split apart. I feel like Tiverton & Minehead will be a Tory hold, Honiton & Sidmouth is hardly to call, maybe 50/50. Glastonbury & Somerton feels like a Lib Dem win as there's a big chunk of the old Wells constituency in there and Frome & East Somerset might be a Tory win unless Labour or Lib Dems decide to give on on the contest.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630
    I'm still somewhat confused about your insistence on looking to history rather than to data in front of us.

    The current polling has Labour anywhere between 40-48% of the vote, and the Tories in the low 20% area. Even the byelections we have seen have been more in line with the mood at a given time then historical trends. To be honest, there may be an argument to be made that even some of these that the Tories held could be at risk now, rather than the opposite of saying that some won by Labour or LD could revert back to blue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    edited February 19

    Foxy said:

    The articles linked above imply that Parish was sacked for viewing standard porn rather than porn with an explicit farming equipment theme. The tractor link comes from his explanation: that he accidentally visited a porn site while shopping for a new tractor. An important clarification.

    Funny old world.

    It must have been a harrowing experience for him.
    He ploughed on with that story.
    Some say he reaped what he had sown.
    Typed Massive Ferguson by mistake ?

    And let's not even think about John Deere's seed drill.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Interesting, thank you

    I recommend reading that amazing article, if you haven’t already (the book and movie are less good, I’ve heard)

    If time is not linear or does not exist at all as we understand it, then the physics of prophecy is much less far fetched

    Right now, with serious physicists claiming that SORA proves we are likely living in a simulation, no idea seems too outlandish

    An exciting time to be alive and open minded
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,765
    Well the £13/hr cleaner fired from the City law firm for eating a sandwich, has sold her story to the Daily Mail.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13099985/The-hard-hearted-letter-cleaning-boss-sent-single-mother-13-hour-fired-eating-left-tuna-sandwich-meeting-room.html

    Perhaps Devonshires might be better off employing their own cleaners, to whom they can draft bulletproof NDAs when they get fired?
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,496
    edited February 19
    Leon said:

    FPT - took a while to type, shame to waste it:

    At one stage of my life I had unpleasant and difficult-to-deal with financial problems and I frequently had dreams where I was naked in public.
    Then I got everything sorted and those dreams stopped.

    From time to time I have 'failed to hand in work for a course' dreams and also 'naked but hoping no one will notice' dreams.

    The former are easy to explain (imo) as that was my normal state throughout my undistinguished academic career.

    The latter are much more puzzling as I have never been in such a situation outside of my dreams.

    When you think about it the whole nudity taboo/embarrassment thing is deeply weird. At what point in our evolution did humans become ashamed of their bodies, and why? (I'm going to discount the explanation in Genesis, intriguing though it is.)
    Especially Crocs.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630
    Nigelb said:

    Why isn’t AI doing the tedious shit for creative people instead of the creative shit for tedious people
    https://twitter.com/piesaac/status/1758739093570379932

    Because that doesn't serve the interest of capital. Capitalists want to make products cheaply to maximise profit. Capitalists also own AI patents. So it will be used in a way that creates profit by allowing corporations to lay off human workers (or downsize their jobs to be AI correctors) instead. Automation isn't inherently bad for people, it shouldn't be seen as a negative for workers - you just have to make sure that workers benefit from automated labour.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,455
    edited February 19
    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    The most compelling attempt at rigorously looking at this and related subjects (he was especially big on children who recalled previous lives) was the late Professor Ian Stevenson. He studied phenomena including telepathic stuff, coincidence stuff and future in dream stuff I very much want to be entirely untrue and he is quite (to me) disturbing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    What a surprise.

    Trump’s first remarks about Navalny compare Russian’s death to his own legal situation
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4476703-trumps-first-remarks-about-navalny-compare-russians-death-to-his-own-legal-situation/
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,780
    edited February 19
    https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/02/16/building-control-system-on-verge-of-collapse/

    Building control system on the verge of collapse....

    "LABC chief executive Lorna Stimpson has written to HSE and government chiefs warning that “local authorities will cease to be able to undertake a building control function post April 6.”

    This will mean ongoing construction projects will not be inspected while stop and compliance notices will not also be served....

    One industry expert said: “Building control has been neglected and under-resourced for years but these changes look like they will tip the whole system into chaos.

    “Experienced inspectors are retiring with no-one to take their place while the authorities have been sleep walking towards this deadline for ages without any thought as to how things will work in the real world.”


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,920
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492

    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
    Who will be the Portillo of 2025? Rabbit is convinced it won't be a Tory, it will be Thangam Debonaire.
    Whether Thangam Debbonaire loses or not, she won't provide a Portillo moment. That needs to come from the defeat of a high-profile government figure. There will be many to choose from.

    Although no longer in the cabinet, JRM would qualify and is my suggestion. But IDS, 30p, Ben Bradley, Grant Shapps... they'll all be gone too.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,455
    Sandpit said:

    Well the £13/hr cleaner fired from the City law firm for eating a sandwich, has sold her story to the Daily Mail.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13099985/The-hard-hearted-letter-cleaning-boss-sent-single-mother-13-hour-fired-eating-left-tuna-sandwich-meeting-room.html

    Perhaps Devonshires might be better off employing their own cleaners, to whom they can draft bulletproof NDAs when they get fired?

    Good for her, and (on this occasion) good for the DM. And what she did was not, in law, theft. Nor should it be.
  • Sandpit said:

    Well the £13/hr cleaner fired from the City law firm for eating a sandwich, has sold her story to the Daily Mail.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13099985/The-hard-hearted-letter-cleaning-boss-sent-single-mother-13-hour-fired-eating-left-tuna-sandwich-meeting-room.html

    Perhaps Devonshires might be better off employing their own cleaners, to whom they can draft bulletproof NDAs when they get fired?

    Lawyers are the best of humanity, stealing from a lawyer is like stealing from an orphan.

    No wonder Hurrah for the Blackshirts are on her side.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,057
    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    Selection bias though. How many people dreamed about x that didn't then occur? There is a long history of premonitions (often featured in Fortean Times) but usually only realised after the event.
  • An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    I quite often dream I've come up with some startlingly brilliant invention.

    When I wake up I either can't remember what it was or* the idea is utter shite.

    (I have no illusions that the ones I can't remember were other than utter shite too.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,492
    Here's another odd thing about dreams: that you can completely shock yourself in one.

    Given you are inventing the dream for yourself how can you be surprised by it? Try making yourself jump by shouting 'boo!' - it just doesn't work.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,765

    An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k

    I see that lawyers being the ‘best of humanity’ lasted about 10 minutes then!
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630

    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
    Who will be the Portillo of 2025? Rabbit is convinced it won't be a Tory, it will be Thangam Debonaire.
    Whether Thangam Debbonaire loses or not, she won't provide a Portillo moment. That needs to come from the defeat of a high-profile government figure. There will be many to choose from.

    Although no longer in the cabinet, JRM would qualify and is my suggestion. But IDS, 30p, Ben Bradley, Grant Shapps... they'll all be gone too.
    Maybe this is a sign of me being a youngster, but my "Portillo moment" was Ed Balls in 2015. Although Nick Clegg losing his seat in 2017 was also funny.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,057

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,929
    edited February 19
    Has anyone done the gag about dreaming you’re Eating a giant marshmallow yet ?
  • Interesting question:

    Chesham - Would probably put the LD as slight favourite as home counties and she has had time to work the seat.
    North Shropshire - Doesn't feel like natural LD territory so would expect Con to regain. The Con MP for neighbouring Clwyd South is standing here.
    Wakefield - easy Lab hold
    Tiverton and Honiton - Affected by boundary changes. The LD MP is standing in Honiton and Sidmouth, which has about 2/3rds of the old seat and 1/3 East Devon. The East Devon MP is standing for Cons. Too close to call
    Selby and Ainsty - Succesor seat of Selby is more Labour friendly as has a Leeds ward added to it and loses the area near Harrogate. Lab shouldbe favourites
    Somerton and Frome - successor seat is Glastonbury and Somerton. LDs should hold with current strength in Somerset
    Rutherglen and HW - Rutherglen is the main successor seat. Should be fairly comfortable Lab hold
    Mid Bedfordshire - The Lab MP is following a small part of the current seat to the new Hitchin seat. Lab have a good chance there but this should revert to Con
    Tamworth - Depends on the national picture. On current polls Lab can be confident of holding. The Walsall N is standing for Cons.
    Wellingborough - boundary changes slightly help Lab. Labour should be favourites to hold.

    The 3 MP on MP battles in N Shropshire, Tamworth and Honiton could be tasty
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,765
    edited February 19
    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
    Who will be the Portillo of 2025? Rabbit is convinced it won't be a Tory, it will be Thangam Debonaire.
    Whether Thangam Debbonaire loses or not, she won't provide a Portillo moment. That needs to come from the defeat of a high-profile government figure. There will be many to choose from.

    Although no longer in the cabinet, JRM would qualify and is my suggestion. But IDS, 30p, Ben Bradley, Grant Shapps... they'll all be gone too.
    Maybe this is a sign of me being a youngster, but my "Portillo moment" was Ed Balls in 2015. Although Nick Clegg losing his seat in 2017 was also funny.
    Clegg was also funny because of who won the seat, perhaps the single most unsuitable MP of the last 40 years, Jared O’Mara.

    I remember being up for Portillo as a student.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,455
    148grss said:

    I'm still somewhat confused about your insistence on looking to history rather than to data in front of us.

    The current polling has Labour anywhere between 40-48% of the vote, and the Tories in the low 20% area. Even the byelections we have seen have been more in line with the mood at a given time then historical trends. To be honest, there may be an argument to be made that even some of these that the Tories held could be at risk now, rather than the opposite of saying that some won by Labour or LD could revert back to blue.

    The only thing that exists is history. The present is fleeting, the future doesn't exist. The data in front of us is part of history. There is no future data.

    To guess/predict what will happen in the future is to select from historical data (there is no other) what you think relevant, guess what factors will weigh in and how it will affect things between now and the future date (itself an unknown in the case of the next GE), allow for Black Swans and pile in.

    So, for example, on the extremes of current polling + Baxtering, the Tories end up with 50 seats. Did I read that on the Wellingborough result they end up with four seats only?

    OTOH, in Kingswood the swing was 16 %points. A considered and recent academic view is that Labour need a 12.7point swing to get a majority at all. On that single piece of data, given what can happen during a campaign and the weaknesses of Labour, NOM is perfectly possible.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,057

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    Interesting! Do you ever recall such a feeling at another time? (I.e. was this the only time you felt that way?)

    I had an interesting variant on this - an encounter with Pan. Walking alone on Salisbury Plain, aged around 16, I suddenly felt a need to be as far away from where I was as possible. I jogged/fast walked the three miles back to my village and only really felt right when well inside the village. I didn't see anything or hear anything, just felt wrong. Such an occurence is often attributed to Pan (and hence Panic) but maybe I just spoked myself... I am born and raised on the Chalk of the Plain and normally feel totally at home, so it was an odd one to say the least.
  • Sandpit said:

    An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k

    I see that lawyers being the ‘best of humanity’ lasted about 10 minutes then!
    This story is like a modern day version of My Fair Lady.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,920

    Here's another odd thing about dreams: that you can completely shock yourself in one.

    Given you are inventing the dream for yourself how can you be surprised by it? Try making yourself jump by shouting 'boo!' - it just doesn't work.

    I've had two recurring dreams. One was picking up and stacking an infinite supply of lumber and the other was walking on a path only to come across an enormous bottomless hole. I had to gingerly crawl around the outside of this precarious chasm to pass and slipped (but not in) on occasions. If either draw an analogy I would suggest my life is both futile and sh*te.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,310
    Sandpit said:

    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    On topic, sort of as I am only going to comment on the LD wins:

    Tiverton - LD hold
    Somerton - LD hold
    Chesham - Depends on how they do during the campaign. In the balance
    Shropshire - Tory gain unless the LDs are having a really really good night...

    ...or, and this is more likely, the Tories are having a really, really bad night.
    Who will be the Portillo of 2025? Rabbit is convinced it won't be a Tory, it will be Thangam Debonaire.
    Whether Thangam Debbonaire loses or not, she won't provide a Portillo moment. That needs to come from the defeat of a high-profile government figure. There will be many to choose from.

    Although no longer in the cabinet, JRM would qualify and is my suggestion. But IDS, 30p, Ben Bradley, Grant Shapps... they'll all be gone too.
    Maybe this is a sign of me being a youngster, but my "Portillo moment" was Ed Balls in 2015. Although Nick Clegg losing his seat in 2017 was also funny.
    Clegg was also funny because of who won the seat, perhaps the single most unsuitable MP of the last 40 years, Jared O’Mara.

    I remember being up for Portillo as a student.
    97 was the first GE I watched on TV - I was mid-teens. Quite a first election to see...

    As a good young Daily Mail-reading Tory, I thought Portillo was the obvious future of the party, so it was quite a shock to see him ejected!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,543

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    That is the thing about coincidences, you remember them. You never remember all the many more things that didn't happen.

    I had an architect doing drawings for an extension to our house. She notified me she would be away on holiday shortly. I said no problem I would be also. On our drive down through France we stayed over at a hotel and as we sat in the restaurant, there she was at another table. I got up and approached her from behind and said 'Now about these plans I just wanted to talk to you about ....'. She took a few minutes to recover and realise she wasn't being stalked.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041

    Here's another odd thing about dreams: that you can completely shock yourself in one.

    Given you are inventing the dream for yourself how can you be surprised by it? Try making yourself jump by shouting 'boo!' - it just doesn't work.

    I've had two recurring dreams. One was picking up and stacking an infinite supply of lumber and the other was walking on a path only to come across an enormous bottomless hole. I had to gingerly crawl around the outside of this precarious chasm to pass and slipped (but not in) on occasions. If either draw an analogy I would suggest my life is both futile and sh*te.
    Or you're a reincarnation of either Sisyphus or Tantalus.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041

    Sandpit said:

    An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k

    I see that lawyers being the ‘best of humanity’ lasted about 10 minutes then!
    This story is like a modern day version of My Fair Lady.
    My Unfair Contract Terms, Act I.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464

    Here's another odd thing about dreams: that you can completely shock yourself in one.

    Given you are inventing the dream for yourself how can you be surprised by it? Try making yourself jump by shouting 'boo!' - it just doesn't work.

    Yes

    How can dreams create surprising narrative twists? Yet they do

    I can sometimes reach lucid dreaming states (not uncommon) where I am vaguely aware I am dreaming, and at best - much rarer - I can order the dream to go in a nice way. Flying or sex usually

    However even in those dreams suddenly the dream will lurch in an entirely different direction which I didn’t intend and did not desire or will

    So what part of my brain is doing that? The Freudian distinction between conscious and subconscious seems useful for this reason alone

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,920

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    Interesting! Do you ever recall such a feeling at another time? (I.e. was this the only time you felt that way?)

    I had an interesting variant on this - an encounter with Pan. Walking alone on Salisbury Plain, aged around 16, I suddenly felt a need to be as far away from where I was as possible. I jogged/fast walked the three miles back to my village and only really felt right when well inside the village. I didn't see anything or hear anything, just felt wrong. Such an occurence is often attributed to Pan (and hence Panic) but maybe I just spoked myself... I am born and raised on the Chalk of the Plain and normally feel totally at home, so it was an odd one to say the least.
    No that was the only occasion. I knew something dramatic and dreadful had occurred, but I had no idea what.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,765

    Sandpit said:

    An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k

    I see that lawyers being the ‘best of humanity’ lasted about 10 minutes then!
    This story is like a modern day version of My Fair Lady.
    With the bonus assault of the four-year-old child. Lawyers, scumbags the lot of them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,455
    edit
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,057
    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    So 75% don't get the option of meat? Sounds fair...

    I agree woke is tenuous, and in reality 'don't be a dick' and 'be nice to people' covers most things. However there is a substance there somewhere. Moving from Christmas to Winterval to be more inclusive (who voted for that?). I think sometimes the issue is culture warriors fighting battles on behalf of others, typically others who don't care. Such as all the non-Christians our there who happily celebrate Christmas, including atheists, muslims, budhhists etc. There is also a tendency to want keep ratcheting a dial.

    But hey, its not the biggest issue in the world right now.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,774
    I was up for Portillo.

    I was also up for Palmer, and I don’t mean him losing his Nottingham seat.

    Do I win a prize?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,920
    Nigelb said:

    Here's another odd thing about dreams: that you can completely shock yourself in one.

    Given you are inventing the dream for yourself how can you be surprised by it? Try making yourself jump by shouting 'boo!' - it just doesn't work.

    I've had two recurring dreams. One was picking up and stacking an infinite supply of lumber and the other was walking on a path only to come across an enormous bottomless hole. I had to gingerly crawl around the outside of this precarious chasm to pass and slipped (but not in) on occasions. If either draw an analogy I would suggest my life is both futile and sh*te.
    Or you're a reincarnation of either Sisyphus or Tantalus.
    ...or more likely a lumberjack.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 609

    An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k

    I love the way they mention assaulting a child almost as if it's an afterthought - talk about burying the lede!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464
    The older and wiser I get the more I realise how unwise I am, and how little we know of the world. I doubt that humanity has explained 0.000001% of reality. We are a bipedal ape on one planet with opposable thumbs and we can play football well but can’t work out whether we are living in a giant simulation or not. That’s quite fundamental


    There’s an old saying about writers who go to China

    After a month in China you confidently want to write a book

    After a year in China you scale this back to a good long essay

    After a decade in China you think maybe you could squeeze out an article

    After a lifetime, maybe a sentence
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630
    algarkirk said:

    148grss said:

    I'm still somewhat confused about your insistence on looking to history rather than to data in front of us.

    The current polling has Labour anywhere between 40-48% of the vote, and the Tories in the low 20% area. Even the byelections we have seen have been more in line with the mood at a given time then historical trends. To be honest, there may be an argument to be made that even some of these that the Tories held could be at risk now, rather than the opposite of saying that some won by Labour or LD could revert back to blue.

    The only thing that exists is history. The present is fleeting, the future doesn't exist. The data in front of us is part of history. There is no future data.

    To guess/predict what will happen in the future is to select from historical data (there is no other) what you think relevant, guess what factors will weigh in and how it will affect things between now and the future date (itself an unknown in the case of the next GE), allow for Black Swans and pile in.

    So, for example, on the extremes of current polling + Baxtering, the Tories end up with 50 seats. Did I read that on the Wellingborough result they end up with four seats only?

    OTOH, in Kingswood the swing was 16 %points. A considered and recent academic view is that Labour need a 12.7point swing to get a majority at all. On that single piece of data, given what can happen during a campaign and the weaknesses of Labour, NOM is perfectly possible.
    Philosophy of time aside; what evidence is there that "historic precedent" is a better predictor than current polling? To me the evidence suggests if you want historic precedent look at the wipe out of the Tories in Canada, not look at all past UK elections, because 1) it's clear that now is not like all past UK elections and 2) the polling data we have and the election system we have is most similar to that of our Canadian friends. If the polling data was all over the place, I would concede to historical precedent - but it isn't.

    The polls are within a relatively consistent set of figures that show the Tories either losing and Labour having a reasonable majority all the way to an extinction level event for the Conservatives where they could have fewer seats than the LDs or SNP. It is possible that the next Tory leader may not even be LOTO. And yet instead the environment here seems to be one of an inevitable reversion to some foundational political mean that just doesn't seem to exist.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    Interesting! Do you ever recall such a feeling at another time? (I.e. was this the only time you felt that way?)

    I had an interesting variant on this - an encounter with Pan. Walking alone on Salisbury Plain, aged around 16, I suddenly felt a need to be as far away from where I was as possible. I jogged/fast walked the three miles back to my village and only really felt right when well inside the village. I didn't see anything or hear anything, just felt wrong. Such an occurence is often attributed to Pan (and hence Panic) but maybe I just spoked myself... I am born and raised on the Chalk of the Plain and normally feel totally at home, so it was an odd one to say the least.
    Fascinating. Panic is definitely a thing - as in the true sense of Pan-ic - which you note

    The most interesting people tend to be the total pragmatists and materialists who, nonetheless, have had totally inexplicable experiences
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,747
    edited February 19

    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    So 75% don't get the option of meat? Sounds fair...

    I agree woke is tenuous, and in reality 'don't be a dick' and 'be nice to people' covers most things. However there is a substance there somewhere. Moving from Christmas to Winterval to be more inclusive (who voted for that?). I think sometimes the issue is culture warriors fighting battles on behalf of others, typically others who don't care. Such as all the non-Christians our there who happily celebrate Christmas, including atheists, muslims, budhhists etc. There is also a tendency to want keep ratcheting a dial.

    But hey, its not the biggest issue in the world right now.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterval

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/winterval-modern-myth-christmas

    TLDR: It was a bollocks made up by the press controversy
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    Interesting! Do you ever recall such a feeling at another time? (I.e. was this the only time you felt that way?)

    I had an interesting variant on this - an encounter with Pan. Walking alone on Salisbury Plain, aged around 16, I suddenly felt a need to be as far away from where I was as possible. I jogged/fast walked the three miles back to my village and only really felt right when well inside the village. I didn't see anything or hear anything, just felt wrong. Such an occurence is often attributed to Pan (and hence Panic) but maybe I just spoked myself... I am born and raised on the Chalk of the Plain and normally feel totally at home, so it was an odd one to say the least.
    No that was the only occasion. I knew something dramatic and dreadful had occurred, but I had no idea what.
    Do you see this as paranormal? Or just coincidence?

    It sounds like something definitely happened
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,983
    AlsoLei said:

    An employment tribunal has ruled that a law student, who was was hired by a solicitor at the Playboy casino in London, should be paid over £28k as compensation for injury to feelings and for breach of contract.

    A male solicitor, known as AD in the judgment, approached the woman, "BR", while she was working as a dancer at a club and offered her a job as his personal legal secretary.

    He invited her for dinner at the Playboy Club to discuss the opening, telling her to “Look classy. I’m taking you to a proper place”.

    AD (now deceased) was a consultant at Eldwick Law. BR was studying the graduate diploma in law, part-time.

    The consultant solicitor met BR again at the Playboy casino to discuss the role in more detail. BR said she had researched Eldwick Law and was "excited about the possibility" of working there.

    The employment tribunal heard that AD told BR that he saw "a lot of potential" in her background in "West End hospitality", which would be an asset to "entertain and work alongside high net-worth clients."

    The solicitor said BR would be expected to pick up clients at night when they visited high-end restaurants and bars. The silver-tongued lawyer described himself as "God", said AR was to be his "obedient little slave creature," and gave her instructions not to wear shiny tights.

    BR said that AD had offered her a base salary of £14,000 per year, plus a bonus of 10% of what she billed and received, plus 5% of what AD billed and received.

    BR accepted that she was "rather naïve", and the tribunal noted "there were several inappropriate WhatsApp messages in the bundle". However, the tribunal said that the solicitor "acted inappropriately" towards BR from the beginning.

    The law student attended some typing courses, paid for by AD. But she was not given an induction at the firm, nor did AD ask for her account details. She worked from her home or his home, and AD introduced her to people as his "personal legal secretary."

    AD did not pay the law student for the work she did, nor the expenses she incurred on his behalf.

    Things took a dark turn when AD "went to the claimant's home and assaulted her and her four-year-old son", and was arrested by the police.

    Eldwick Law terminated AD's consultancy agreement when it emerged that he was being investigated by the SRA and he refused to tell the firm what the investigation was about.

    BR made a claim for unpaid work against Eldwick Law, arguing that she had been employed by the firm. However, the claim against the firm was dismissed, as the tribunal held that Eldwick Law had no knowledge of how BR came to work for AD, and no knowledge of the working arrangements. Ultimately, the law student was not employed by Eldwick Law, the tribunal ruled.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/club-dancer-hired-solicitors-obedient-little-slave-creature-awarded-ps28k

    I love the way they mention assaulting a child almost as if it's an afterthought - talk about burying the lede!
    What about the "AD (now deceased)"?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630
    edited February 19

    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    So 75% don't get the option of meat? Sounds fair...

    I agree woke is tenuous, and in reality 'don't be a dick' and 'be nice to people' covers most things. However there is a substance there somewhere. Moving from Christmas to Winterval to be more inclusive (who voted for that?). I think sometimes the issue is culture warriors fighting battles on behalf of others, typically others who don't care. Such as all the non-Christians our there who happily celebrate Christmas, including atheists, muslims, budhhists etc. There is also a tendency to want keep ratcheting a dial.

    But hey, its not the biggest issue in the world right now.
    Well no, because they tend to leave meat behind uneaten and eat all the veggie options anyway!

    I mean, how much of the "Winterval" stuff actually exists out there, though? Like, when I send emails out to students I will typically say "winter break", but that's because that's what it is. I think most people try to "not be a dick" or "be nice to people" and then people with an axe to grind wind themselves up about it for no reason. It doesn't hurt you if I don't celebrate Christmas and don't wish anyone a "Merry Christmas" so why get vexed if I say "Happy Holidays" or, indeed, nothing at all?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,310
    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    That is the thing about coincidences, you remember them. You never remember all the many more things that didn't happen.

    I had an architect doing drawings for an extension to our house. She notified me she would be away on holiday shortly. I said no problem I would be also. On our drive down through France we stayed over at a hotel and as we sat in the restaurant, there she was at another table. I got up and approached her from behind and said 'Now about these plans I just wanted to talk to you about ....'. She took a few minutes to recover and realise she wasn't being stalked.
    Yep. There are two events from my childhood that could be seen as a bit freaky:
    1. Night my gran died, I woke up in the middle of the night with a strange feeling of being startled - I was on scout camp. Next day, my dad came to get us and said he had bad news, I knew before he said what it was that my gran had died, even though I wasn't expecting her death.
    2. I distinctly remember asking my mum, before school when I was in infants, whether I'd had another brother. I don't remember her reply, think she changed the subject, but I learned many years later that I did have another brother, older than my older brother, who was stillborn
    Now, 1 is easily explained by coincidences. I probably was startled by a noise, either another sleeper in the tent or some animal outside. When my dad said he had bad news, there were limited options. He wasn't completely in pieces, so it was unlikely to me my mum. I had only two surviving grandparents and my gran was the eldest and most frail and his mother, so it was probably clear enough from his delivery. 2 did give me a real start when I learned about the stillbirth, years later. But, talking to my older brother, he remembers my parents talking about it a bit when he was quite small. I have no such memories, but likelihood is that I did pick something up from that.

    If I was a believer in the paranormal then I'd see those as two good examples. As a scientist I seek the other explanations and probably have a bias towards explaining away. But that's where I'm at with both of those.

    I also sometimes feel like I have prophetic dreams, but I only make the connection after the actual event happens - so I suspect my brain re-draws the dots of the dream after the event, making connections that were never there. I've never dreamt something clearly enough to produce a testable hypothesis that I could write down and check back on later.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,956
    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    On the food. Clearly if people are going hungry then a mistake has been made, but I don't think that means you have to order zero meat options. Surely there's a middle ground where there is a choice for those who might want to eat meat, but not so much that non-meat eaters are lefty without - though I'm speaking here as one of those omnivores who tends to avoid meat in a buffet situation, not knowing where it is from, or how long it has been waiting there.

    As to woke generally, there is a lot which is simply this generation's treating people with respect, but there is an element, perhaps a product of the way in which people get riled up online, of being uncompromising, impatient, and, ironically, rude about it.

    It's as though people forget that it might well be a new idea for other people, that it often takes people a while to get used to new ideas, and a bit of open-hearted patience and the benefit of the doubt can go a long way.

    Taking this back to the food example, if a 3:1 meat: no-meat order didn't work, why not try 1:1, or 1:3, before leaping straight away to no meat at all?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464
    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    That is the thing about coincidences, you remember them. You never remember all the many more things that didn't happen.

    I had an architect doing drawings for an extension to our house. She notified me she would be away on holiday shortly. I said no problem I would be also. On our drive down through France we stayed over at a hotel and as we sat in the restaurant, there she was at another table. I got up and approached her from behind and said 'Now about these plans I just wanted to talk to you about ....'. She took a few minutes to recover and realise she wasn't being stalked.
    Yep. There are two events from my childhood that could be seen as a bit freaky:
    1. Night my gran died, I woke up in the middle of the night with a strange feeling of being startled - I was on scout camp. Next day, my dad came to get us and said he had bad news, I knew before he said what it was that my gran had died, even though I wasn't expecting her death.
    2. I distinctly remember asking my mum, before school when I was in infants, whether I'd had another brother. I don't remember her reply, think she changed the subject, but I learned many years later that I did have another brother, older than my older brother, who was stillborn
    Now, 1 is easily explained by coincidences. I probably was startled by a noise, either another sleeper in the tent or some animal outside. When my dad said he had bad news, there were limited options. He wasn't completely in pieces, so it was unlikely to me my mum. I had only two surviving grandparents and my gran was the eldest and most frail and his mother, so it was probably clear enough from his delivery. 2 did give me a real start when I learned about the stillbirth, years later. But, talking to my older brother, he remembers my parents talking about it a bit when he was quite small. I have no such memories, but likelihood is that I did pick something up from that.

    If I was a believer in the paranormal then I'd see those as two good examples. As a scientist I seek the other explanations and probably have a bias towards explaining away. But that's where I'm at with both of those.

    I also sometimes feel like I have prophetic dreams, but I only make the connection after the actual event happens - so I suspect my brain re-draws the dots of the dream after the event, making connections that were never there. I've never dreamt something clearly enough to produce a testable hypothesis that I could write down and check back on later.
    The first is called a “crisis apparition” and is rare but not unknown. The rational theory is that you can sense - perhaps subconsciously - when people close to you are likely to be in danger, and you also get signals from other friends and family; without really registering? So it “feels” paranormal
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,042
    darkage said:

    https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/02/16/building-control-system-on-verge-of-collapse/

    Building control system on the verge of collapse....

    "LABC chief executive Lorna Stimpson has written to HSE and government chiefs warning that “local authorities will cease to be able to undertake a building control function post April 6.”

    This will mean ongoing construction projects will not be inspected while stop and compliance notices will not also be served....

    One industry expert said: “Building control has been neglected and under-resourced for years but these changes look like they will tip the whole system into chaos.

    “Experienced inspectors are retiring with no-one to take their place while the authorities have been sleep walking towards this deadline for ages without any thought as to how things will work in the real world.”


    A large part of this is the Process State - Building Control the organisation has steadily detached and sailed away from controlling and inspecting construction.

    So you have more paperwork than ever before, vast sums expended and more and more defective buildings slipping through.

    The friend who is on the management committee of his new built block tells me that they have decided that his block can have new cladding - after the remedial structural work has been done. Since they discovered the building is structurally deficient, while investigating the cladding.

    The next door block was evacuated and remains empty. Because they aren’t sure *how* structurally deficient it is. Concrete is fucked apparently. On top of getting the calculations for load wrong.

    Both buildings were signed off and inhabited for a number of years before this was noticed.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 194
    The recent large sample MRP poll says they will stay red. Politico's poll of polls has a 21% lead to labour, which also say they will stay red. Detailed studies os rural seats also suggest things will stay red... it is wipeout time for the tories.

    As usual there is constant apologetics going on from tories in this group trying to suggest that the numbers are not the numbers. Bet the data, don't bet your hopes, because it will be a world of pain.
  • 148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    So 75% don't get the option of meat? Sounds fair...

    I agree woke is tenuous, and in reality 'don't be a dick' and 'be nice to people' covers most things. However there is a substance there somewhere. Moving from Christmas to Winterval to be more inclusive (who voted for that?). I think sometimes the issue is culture warriors fighting battles on behalf of others, typically others who don't care. Such as all the non-Christians our there who happily celebrate Christmas, including atheists, muslims, budhhists etc. There is also a tendency to want keep ratcheting a dial.

    But hey, its not the biggest issue in the world right now.
    Nobody voted for that - it never happened.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/winterval-modern-myth-christmas

    A classic (and early) piece of the right weaponising ignorance and stupidity by telling outright lies.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,002
    Roy gone. One of the game's good guys. Such a nice civilised man. Hopefully his health will benefit from the stress removal.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,464
    edited February 19
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    So 75% don't get the option of meat? Sounds fair...

    I agree woke is tenuous, and in reality 'don't be a dick' and 'be nice to people' covers most things. However there is a substance there somewhere. Moving from Christmas to Winterval to be more inclusive (who voted for that?). I think sometimes the issue is culture warriors fighting battles on behalf of others, typically others who don't care. Such as all the non-Christians our there who happily celebrate Christmas, including atheists, muslims, budhhists etc. There is also a tendency to want keep ratcheting a dial.

    But hey, its not the biggest issue in the world right now.
    Well no, because they tend to leave meat behind uneaten and eat all the veggie options anyway!

    I mean, how much of the "Winterval" stuff actually exists out there, though? Like, when I send emails out to students I will typically say "winter break", but that's because that's what it is. I think most people try to "not be a dick" or "be nice to people" and then people with an axe to grind wind themselves up about it for no reason. It doesn't hurt you if I don't celebrate Christmas and don't wish anyone a "Merry Christmas" so why get vexed if I say "Happy Holidays" or, indeed, nothing at all?
    Fuck off

    We now have a de facto blasphemy law. Not only that, it is a brutal blasphemy law. Offend Islam and you die

    There is a teacher from batley who will be in hiding the rest of his life because he dared to show pupils something that “offended” their Islamic religion. No teacher will now ever dare to do this again

    That’s a blasphemy law the likes of which we haven’t seen since the 17th century. That is Wokeness, that is what it means, it means the end of the Enlightenment, and useful idiots like you who try to claim it is all a fuss about nothing can go jump in the sea. You stupid stupid cretin
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630

    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    On the food. Clearly if people are going hungry then a mistake has been made, but I don't think that means you have to order zero meat options. Surely there's a middle ground where there is a choice for those who might want to eat meat, but not so much that non-meat eaters are lefty without - though I'm speaking here as one of those omnivores who tends to avoid meat in a buffet situation, not knowing where it is from, or how long it has been waiting there.

    As to woke generally, there is a lot which is simply this generation's treating people with respect, but there is an element, perhaps a product of the way in which people get riled up online, of being uncompromising, impatient, and, ironically, rude about it.

    It's as though people forget that it might well be a new idea for other people, that it often takes people a while to get used to new ideas, and a bit of open-hearted patience and the benefit of the doubt can go a long way.

    Taking this back to the food example, if a 3:1 meat: no-meat order didn't work, why not try 1:1, or 1:3, before leaping straight away to no meat at all?
    I don't understand why the meat thing is such an issue. When catering at a work do having only veggie / vegan options allows for a typically cheaper option that has (in my experience at least) less waste (and of course the impact of waste is different for meat products and non-meat products), and also means the actual vegetarians and vegans get enough food, rather than having to share the stuff they can eat with people who will also eat stuff (and leave behind stuff) we can't eat. It's not exclusionary - no one is unable to eat non-meat options. Meat is not an essential - there is no right to meat in every food option. It was also agreed by everyone, meat eaters and not.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,266
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    @Foxy

    Just noticed what a remarkable claim you were making on the prior thread

    You believe you’ve had prophetic dreams? Do you mind describing one? No need for names and ranks obvs

    This subject fascinates me, particularly after I read this famous and remarkable article

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/04/the-psychiatrist-who-believed-people-could-tell-the-future

    Now a book and a movie I believe

    The evidence of people having dreams that foretold Aberfan is quite compelling. Mad, but compelling

    They were strangely vivid dreams about close friends or lovers, so people that I knew well. They felt different to more run of the mill dreams. Each became true within days to weeks.

    The incidents were quite personal, but also prosaic. Meeting people that I hadn't seen for months for example. Not quite the same as deja but, but a related phenomenon I suppose.



    Never had a prophetic dream. I don't believe in that old caper.

    I was working from home on 7/7 and I was suddenly overcome by a feeling of dread. I went from my study to the lounge and turned on the TV and news was coming through about the Russell Square bus. I vaguely knew a woman from Ledbury who was killed in the tube at Lancaster Gate, but I had no real connection. It wasn't like I was being called to from the other side. It must have just been some bizarre coincidence.
    That is the thing about coincidences, you remember them. You never remember all the many more things that didn't happen.

    I had an architect doing drawings for an extension to our house. She notified me she would be away on holiday shortly. I said no problem I would be also. On our drive down through France we stayed over at a hotel and as we sat in the restaurant, there she was at another table. I got up and approached her from behind and said 'Now about these plans I just wanted to talk to you about ....'. She took a few minutes to recover and realise she wasn't being stalked.
    Yep. There are two events from my childhood that could be seen as a bit freaky:
    1. Night my gran died, I woke up in the middle of the night with a strange feeling of being startled - I was on scout camp. Next day, my dad came to get us and said he had bad news, I knew before he said what it was that my gran had died, even though I wasn't expecting her death.
    2. I distinctly remember asking my mum, before school when I was in infants, whether I'd had another brother. I don't remember her reply, think she changed the subject, but I learned many years later that I did have another brother, older than my older brother, who was stillborn
    Now, 1 is easily explained by coincidences. I probably was startled by a noise, either another sleeper in the tent or some animal outside. When my dad said he had bad news, there were limited options. He wasn't completely in pieces, so it was unlikely to me my mum. I had only two surviving grandparents and my gran was the eldest and most frail and his mother, so it was probably clear enough from his delivery. 2 did give me a real start when I learned about the stillbirth, years later. But, talking to my older brother, he remembers my parents talking about it a bit when he was quite small. I have no such memories, but likelihood is that I did pick something up from that.

    If I was a believer in the paranormal then I'd see those as two good examples. As a scientist I seek the other explanations and probably have a bias towards explaining away. But that's where I'm at with both of those.

    I also sometimes feel like I have prophetic dreams, but I only make the connection after the actual event happens - so I suspect my brain re-draws the dots of the dream after the event, making connections that were never there. I've never dreamt something clearly enough to produce a testable hypothesis that I could write down and check back on later.
    The first is called a “crisis apparition” and is rare but not unknown. The rational theory is that you can sense - perhaps subconsciously - when people close to you are likely to be in danger, and you also get signals from other friends and family; without really registering? So it “feels” paranormal
    I had a weird PB-related coincidence once. We used to have a Cornish writer on here called SeanT. A few years ago I was visiting a friend in Cornwall (Goran) and mentioned (attributed) a theory Sean had proposed about the decline of modern music or some such. As I turned I happened to notice a carrier bag of books in my friend's lounge (belonging to his wife). On the top of the pile was a copy of Sean's novel 'The Ice Twins'!
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 609
    edited February 19
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    So 75% don't get the option of meat? Sounds fair...

    I agree woke is tenuous, and in reality 'don't be a dick' and 'be nice to people' covers most things. However there is a substance there somewhere. Moving from Christmas to Winterval to be more inclusive (who voted for that?). I think sometimes the issue is culture warriors fighting battles on behalf of others, typically others who don't care. Such as all the non-Christians our there who happily celebrate Christmas, including atheists, muslims, budhhists etc. There is also a tendency to want keep ratcheting a dial.

    But hey, its not the biggest issue in the world right now.
    Well no, because they tend to leave meat behind uneaten and eat all the veggie options anyway!

    I mean, how much of the "Winterval" stuff actually exists out there, though? Like, when I send emails out to students I will typically say "winter break", but that's because that's what it is. I think most people try to "not be a dick" or "be nice to people" and then people with an axe to grind wind themselves up about it for no reason. It doesn't hurt you if I don't celebrate Christmas and don't wish anyone a "Merry Christmas" so why get vexed if I say "Happy Holidays" or, indeed, nothing at all?
    I'd personally feel a bit weird about going out of my way to ignore people's culture or cultural background, though - especially if they're colleagues that I work with every day.

    I'm not religious in the slightest, but saying "Merry Xmas!", "Happy Diwali!", "Eid Mubarak!" as appropriate isn't any trouble. It feels no different to asking "how are the kids?" or similar, which I'll happily ask of other people despite not having children myself.

    As for the email thing, I'd phrase it as something like "if you're taking time off over Christmas or the New Year..." - some people only take the stat days, some people will be working on one other the other. Talking about a "winter break" that isn't marked in everybody's calendar would only cause confusion.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,774
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Selebian said:

    Off-topic, just seen that I got tagged as a lefty/Labour stooge a few days back. I've voted Lab at a GE once, out of six I've voted in. The same number of times I've voted Conservative in a GE. I will most likely make it 2/7 (for Lab, not Con!) at the next GE, but more a tactical than a conviction vote.

    The mistake CR makes (possibly, I haven't fully untangled whether CR started it) is that I'm 'woke', not particularly left. Where 'woke' is used as a synonym for socially liberal.

    Woke doesn't mean anything.

    How is being a vegan woke?
    Woke does mean something, just not the same to everyone. A bit like porn. How do you define porn? Different people get off on different things. Woke is different for different people.

    In general things described as woke are not bad in themselves, but there can be unintended consequences.

    For instance, you might decide that not enough women are involved in x industry. You might then start only recruiting women to make up the deficit. Is this fair? proportionate?
    You might be organising an event and insist on vegan only catering, to accommodate vegans, ignoring the fact that most people are not vegan and would prefer a choice.

    You might even get hung up on whether a woman can have a penis.
    Gonna stop you on the catering issue - I work in an office where about 25% of us are veggie or vegan. We had to stop ordering meat options because the meat eaters would eat the veggie / vegan options but we obviously couldn't eat the meaty options, so we were left hungry and we would have leftovers.

    Woke is just "political correctness gone mad" which is just "loony lefties" again. Got to remember the original "loony left" usage was to attack local councils who were advocating for, shock horror, treating queer people like human beings and, gasp, catering to ethnic minorities in their communities. It's always been the same thing - if you argue for equitable treatment of people typically considered the out groups, people who benefit from the inequitable treatment complain and try and make you out as a weirdo.
    On the food. Clearly if people are going hungry then a mistake has been made, but I don't think that means you have to order zero meat options. Surely there's a middle ground where there is a choice for those who might want to eat meat, but not so much that non-meat eaters are lefty without - though I'm speaking here as one of those omnivores who tends to avoid meat in a buffet situation, not knowing where it is from, or how long it has been waiting there.

    As to woke generally, there is a lot which is simply this generation's treating people with respect, but there is an element, perhaps a product of the way in which people get riled up online, of being uncompromising, impatient, and, ironically, rude about it.

    It's as though people forget that it might well be a new idea for other people, that it often takes people a while to get used to new ideas, and a bit of open-hearted patience and the benefit of the doubt can go a long way.

    Taking this back to the food example, if a 3:1 meat: no-meat order didn't work, why not try 1:1, or 1:3, before leaping straight away to no meat at all?
    I don't understand why the meat thing is such an issue. When catering at a work do having only veggie / vegan options allows for a typically cheaper option that has (in my experience at least) less waste (and of course the impact of waste is different for meat products and non-meat products), and also means the actual vegetarians and vegans get enough food, rather than having to share the stuff they can eat with people who will also eat stuff (and leave behind stuff) we can't eat. It's not exclusionary - no one is unable to eat non-meat options. Meat is not an essential - there is no right to meat in every food option. It was also agreed by everyone, meat eaters and not.
    It does seem a daft hoo-haa about office snacks FFS. Who cares? If you want a good dinner, go out to dinner.
This discussion has been closed.