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What to read in to this? – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,607

    It’s old, but I’ve just discovered Blacklist on NetFlix. Really like James Spader

    It’s a police procedural so gets a little samey after a while but am still intrigued to figure out the relationship between the two main characters
    That goes on for ever. There is, literally, no end to it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    TOPPING said:

    The film is the one-shot Stephen Graham vehicle and is excellent. There is also a (Stephen Graham-produced) series (4 episodes) on the BBC which is a sequel of sorts to the film (same cast plus some newbies) and is excellent. It redefines the meaning of tension.
    Stephen Graham is great in almost everything he appears in (even if it's garbage).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    IanB2 said:

    Stephen Graham is usually excellent in everything that he does. Which just goes to show that some Liverpudlians do have a societal contribution to make. He only has a bit part in the AppleTV film Greyhound, starring Tom Hanks, but it’s worth watching for that, nevertheless.
    He is fantastic and yes nothing he's in isn't worth watching.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    BOILING POINT ALERT

    @Leon - it is a teensy bit woke with some clumsy stereotypes out of the kitchen but please don't let that put you off.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    Also highly recommended - My Mister* on Netflix.

    (An inadequate translation of the Korean 'ajussi', which is a slightly impolite word for a middle aged man.)

    Stars the great Lee Sun-kyun (Parasite), who recently committed suicide.
  • Nigelb said:

    Stephen Graham is great in almost everything he appears in (even if it's garbage).
    Boardwalk Empire was the first I think I saw him in and is another show which was great the first few seasons. Never finished the series though as moved and didn't keep Sky so not seen the end of it.
  • The recent Netflix series The Fall of the House of Usher was excellent - wonderfully baroque and over the top, like Seven meets Succession.
    From a few years ago, the German series Dark was equally complex and thought provoking. I was apoplectic when Netflix cancelled the writers' next effort, 1899, after one season.
    And although some didnt like it, I though the BBC drama The Gallows Pole, directed by Shane Meadows, was very good, both as a story and visually/aurally
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,607
    Leon said:

    Down thread we have someone asking why there are negative perceptions of Muslims in this country. Apart from the beheadings, the terrorism, the quasi blasphemy laws, the cousin mariages (with ensuing birth defects in children), the arranged marriages, the homophobia, the misogyny, the massive racist rape gangs, the sharia law, the over reliance on benefits, the attacks on teachers, the niqabs and burqas, the rampant anti-Semitism, the honour killings, the drug gangs and the new tendency to melt women with acid, I cannot think of a single reason
    "Muslims. It's like they're some sort of protected species. We're not even allowed to criticise them ffs."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504

    The recent Netflix series The Fall of the House of Usher was excellent - wonderfully baroque and over the top, like Seven meets Succession.
    From a few years ago, the German series Dark was equally complex and thought provoking. I was apoplectic when Netflix cancelled the writers' next effort, 1899, after one season.
    And although some didnt like it, I though the BBC drama The Gallows Pole, directed by Shane Meadows, was very good, both as a story and visually/aurally

    Usher is contrived and mannered and eventually dull

    gallows pole is one of the worst tv dramas ever made. Even the guardian admitted it (and they love Shane meadows). NOTHING HAPPENS and it happens very very slowly

    An enormous disappointment

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    I have tried to get into the subsequent This Is Englands post-film but have struggled. Are they worth it?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504

    Boardwalk Empire was the first I think I saw him in and is another show which was great the first few seasons. Never finished the series though as moved and didn't keep Sky so not seen the end of it.
    Boardwalk is really good for the first 3 or so
  • My question wasn't aimed at you, actually. I know your views. Repeatedly.
    Labour supporters, particularly those of the far left, have a problem with Jews. It is not because of Palestine. That is an excuse to hide their anti-Semitism behind that cause. The reason why many Labour supporters hate Jews is because they associate Jews with capitalism. The tropes about Soros and how the Jews control the banks are all part of this very special form of racial prejudice that is acceptable to supporters of Jeremy Corbyn and the like. They are racists, pure and simple. Evil, even.

    Starmer is doing the right thing to root them out. The question is whether it is simply just window dressing.
  • Leon said:

    Usher is contrived and mannered and eventually dull

    gallows pole is one of the worst tv dramas ever made. Even the guardian admitted it (and they love Shane meadows). NOTHING HAPPENS and it happens very very slowly

    An enormous disappointment

    Yes, all a bit hard for you, I might have guessed
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,067

    You are indeed correct. This Savanta may be the start of something, but we need a lot more data to tell us - and we have a couple of really good data points coming up tomorrow.

    FWIW - for me, the elite pollsters are: Ipsos-Mori, Opinium and Survation. Omnisis (now We Think) got very close on the May 2023 local elections but do not have much of a track record so it's too early to tell with them. R&W, Deltapoll and Survation are the least reliable as they tend to move all over the place for no discernible reason. Then there are the hilarious Matt Goodwin polls.

    As you used Survation twice and no Savanta, you have the same mental block as me? 🤗
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,077
    Leon said:

    Usher is contrived and mannered and eventually dull

    gallows pole is one of the worst tv dramas ever made. Even the guardian admitted it (and they love Shane meadows). NOTHING HAPPENS and it happens very very slowly

    An enormous disappointment

    Gallows Pole was a pile of pretentious theatre student wank and wasted some really good actors and has probably blown the chance of them actually making a series that reflects the story which is quite a good subject.

  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Starmer will open the floodgates?

    Have you seen the current immigration figures? I think you’ll find the floodgates are open.
    Yes, because the new system with higher thresholds hasn't come in yet. Once it does, immigration numbers will fall rapidly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    boulay said:

    Gallows Pole was a pile of pretentious theatre student wank and wasted some really good actors and has probably blown the chance of them actually making a series that reflects the story which is quite a good subject.

    Yes, I was really looking forward to it

    Shane meadows can be a genius. I love the period and the settiing and the theme. I was primed to love it

    But omg. How bad was it??? It was so bad it’s kind of interesting. Something fundamental must have gone wrong. like they dropped the script down the loo and all the cast accidentally took heroin
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,067

    I totally agree with your post, except where you can’t point to any antisemitism can you, from the “hapless two”?

    Go on Taz, I’m calling you out - from what’s in the public domain point to what Ali said that is antisemitic as you libelled him in your post.
    Come on somebody. Anybody. If you are spinning Ali’s suspension is about antisemitism - what did he say that makes this man an anti semite?

    Through all years of this issue in Labour, Ali has been an ally to the Jewish community, having set up Labour groups such as Muslims Against Antisemitism. Are You calling him antisemitic, without pointing to any evidence at all to support your accusation? That’s not really a fair thing anyone to say about anyone is it? ☹️

    It could be some people are using utter hatred voiced for Netanyahu and his right wing government, and asking why the security failure in not responding to the warning signs and shared intelligence - both things are perfectly fair to voice, you don’t even have to be Muslim or left of centre - as an excuse to label those individuals and a whole party as antisemetic? that of course would not only be untrue, unfair, but it would also be against UK law.

    It may be Starmer has made the biggest mistake any politician can make - a hasty knee jerk decision he has got wrong, and thrown good people onto the fire, to satisfy a baying media that you can’t actually satisfy, only feed into wanting more. And in the process of being factionally partial within his own party, he’s now handed silver bullets to the Corbynite left to shoot him down with.

    We all need more evidence and truthful picture behind all this, to be sure about all this, is advice i’m giving.
  • WillG said:

    Yes, because the new system with higher thresholds hasn't come in yet. Once it does, immigration numbers will fall rapidly.
    Yes, and a perfect formation of a large squadron of pigs has just passed my window.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,100
    Leon said:

    I loved Breaking Bad from the get-go, I was an early adopter, it is fantastic

    And yet I HATED the ending, even tho most people enjoyed it. Maybe I just didn't want it to end

    Endings are really hard in any genre. Paradoxically they are harder if you have made a really popular drama series, comedy series, novel sequence, etc- becaause then you have lots of fans who really CARE, and they will all have a personal preference for how it should end

    You cannot please them all, often you will please few if any - like GoT

    The best ending to any great drama I can remember is Spartacus (a neglected masterpiece)

    They absolutely nailed it, you knew he was gonna die (it's history, and they stayed reasonably close to the basic facts) and yet they brought it off superbly. Bravo
    The last episode of The Americans also hanaged to wrap up all the storylines and deliver an emotional gut-punch as well.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,682

    The idea Labour is using anti-Semitism to win Muslim votes is nutty, we've really fallen down the beergate hole.

    That’s not the charge

    The charge is they are willing to -*tolerate* anti-semitism as the price of those votes
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    edited February 2024
    boulay said:

    Gallows Pole was a pile of pretentious theatre student wank and wasted some really good actors and has probably blown the chance of them actually making a series that reflects the story which is quite a good subject.

    Yep. But they all speak like I do. That guttural, semi-legible grunting that passes for my accent. So there is that slightly redeeming feature. For me, at least.

    And if anyone watched Boat Story that was recently on the BBC (which I enjoyed), some of that was filmed near me. I could take you to the very electricity pylon where (SPOILER ALERT!) they find the severed head. Glamorous.
  • Mmmm...

    Pineapple flavour crisps


  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    sarissa said:

    The last episode of The Americans also hanaged to wrap up all the storylines and deliver an emotional gut-punch as well.
    Yes that was fantastic. What a great series.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,682
    Taz said:

    Fine. We need to work on this and plan for it. If he gets in and this happens we had better have been prepared.
    Can he? Genuine question.

    IIRC he needs Senate approval to sign a foreign treaty, so wouldn’t he logically also need approval to terminate one?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    TOPPING said:

    Yes that was fantastic. What a great series.
    I liked seasons 1 and 2 then for some reason stopped. So worth watching to the end?

    Another drama with one great season then shite:

    The man in the high castle

    It started so well!

  • That’s not the charge

    The charge is they are willing to -*tolerate* anti-semitism as the price of those votes

    Meanwhile, many on the Corbyn left and in the Muslim community argue that Labour is courting Jewish votes by being Islamophobic in its policy on Gaza.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,650

    Come on somebody. Anybody. If you are spinning Ali’s suspension is about antisemitism - what did he say that makes this man an anti semite?

    Through all years of this issue in Labour, Ali has been an ally to the Jewish community, having set up Labour groups such as Muslims Against Antisemitism. Are You calling him antisemitic, without pointing to any evidence at all to support your accusation? That’s not really a fair thing anyone to say about anyone is it? ☹️

    It could be some people are using utter hatred voiced for Netanyahu and his right wing government, and asking why the security failure in not responding to the warning signs and shared intelligence - both things are perfectly fair to voice, you don’t even have to be Muslim or left of centre - as an excuse to label those individuals and a whole party as antisemetic? that of course would not only be untrue, unfair, but it would also be against UK law.

    It may be Starmer has made the biggest mistake any politician can make - a hasty knee jerk decision he has got wrong, and thrown good people onto the fire, to satisfy a baying media that you can’t actually satisfy, only feed into wanting more. And in the process of being factionally partial within his own party, he’s now handed silver bullets to the Corbynite left to shoot him down with.

    We all need more evidence and truthful picture behind all this, to be sure about all this, is advice i’m giving.
    Did you miss this bit:

    '...Mr Ali, blaming "people in the media from certain Jewish quarters" for the suspension of Andy McDonald from the Labour Party.'
  • That’s not the charge

    The charge is they are willing to -*tolerate* anti-semitism as the price of those votes
    The moderate end of Labour tolerate it, or sweep it under the carpet. The left wing element bask in their anti-Semitism as a badge of honour and actively encourage it.
  • sarissa said:

    The last episode of The Americans also hanaged to wrap up all the storylines and deliver an emotional gut-punch as well.
    Apparently they considered a spin off with the daughter becoming a Monica Lewinsky
  • Apparently they considered a spin off with the daughter becoming a Monica Lewinsky
    Except that they probably decided that the idea sucks.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    Russian appears to be the only language as good as English for swearing.
    Czech perhaps, judging from The Good Soldier Svejk.
  • As you used Survation twice and no Savanta, you have the same mental block as me? 🤗

    Ha, ha - you know what I mean!

  • Did you miss this bit:

    '...Mr Ali, blaming "people in the media from certain Jewish quarters" for the suspension of Andy McDonald from the Labour Party.'
    Labour supporters believe that racial stereotyping of Jews is OK, or can be excused. It isn't, and it shouldn't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    Leon said:

    I liked seasons 1 and 2 then for some reason stopped. So worth watching to the end?

    Another drama with one great season then shite:

    The man in the high castle

    It started so well!

    Yes The Americans gets better and better once you have accepted the device of the geographical living arrangements.

    Doesn't flag throughout the entire series and gets stronger imo.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,681
    Trump to Jewish golfers: “Who gave you Golan Heights?”

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1757607786450481349
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,041
    a

    No. The idea is that Labour turns a blind eye to a range of un-Labour views to keep Muslim voters on board.
    The problem goes like this -

    1) Due to colonialist history and past racism, challenging non-white people about their beliefs is awkward for people of progressive belief
    2) This means that when people from some communities express beliefs that are sexist, racist etc. they tend not to get challenged in some environments.
    3) This normalises the expression of such beliefs, in such environments.
    4) Comedy ensues.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,899

    The moderate end of Labour tolerate it, or sweep it under the carpet. The left wing element bask in their anti-Semitism as a badge of honour and actively encourage it.
    Remarkable how the extreme right is now getting away with the assertion that any criticism of Israel amounts to anti-Semitism.

    Vladimir Putin must be wishing he could have pulled a trick like that.
  • Labour supporters believe that racial stereotyping of Jews is OK, or can be excused. It isn't, and it shouldn't.
    Hmmm ....

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-book-jews-control-media-general-election-a9239346.html



  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,383
    Carnyx said:

    Czech perhaps, judging from The Good Soldier Svejk.
    All the slavic languages have a rich vocabulary of filth, and the structure of the verbs allows the expression of concepts which are not only physically challenging, but baroque in their intensity.

    In Estonian, by contrast, it is quite hard to swear at all...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    TOPPING said:

    Yes The Americans gets better and better once you have accepted the device of the geographical living arrangements.

    Doesn't flag throughout the entire series and gets stronger imo.
    Gratitude. I am getting some excellent tips here

    I’m not sure why I stopped watching The Americans. Maybe simply coz there was so much choice
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    Cicero said:

    All the slavic languages have a rich vocabulary of filth, and the structure of the verbs allows the expression of concepts which are not only physically challenging, but baroque in their intensity.

    In Estonian, by contrast, it is quite hard to swear at all...
    Can't you now just say "Putin" ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    Leon said:

    Gratitude. I am getting some excellent tips here

    I’m not sure why I stopped watching The Americans. Maybe simply coz there was so much choice
    One I never started.
    Might have to now.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,067
    eristdoof said:

    And the smaller number of Conservative councillors in autumn. It's hard to fight for the political lives of those who caused the loss of your seat.
    Yes, a bad local election night on May 2nd is a consideration on timing of the GE for sure.

    Of all the Conservative Party members on PB, are there any at all who think the General Election is on May 2nd? Are there any party members who want the election in May? or do you all feel with inflation falling and interest rates to follow, the Tory election prospects are going to be much better later in the year?

    Put the covid incompetence and corruption out of your heads, look at how we have reduced boat crossings and turned the economy around. This is the platform the Government will fight the election on, is it not?

    That platform is there and strongest for them early May… it’s completely gone by October, that election platform will be flotsam washing up on a beach and stepped over by illegal arrivals.

    I’m still 100% convinced election is May 2nd.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,148
    edited February 2024
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT (but I just woke up):

    The Russian invasion of Poland - in collaboration with the Nazis - at the beginning of the war is also something that seems to get skated over. I wonder how - or if - it is taught in Russian schools.
    I expect that it is taught, to some extent, in the context of the greater narrative of the historical extent of Russia. I think those parts of Poland occupied in 1939 later became part of the USSR, and were, at one time or another, possibly parts of the Russian Empire.
  • Chris said:

    Remarkable how the extreme right is now getting away with the assertion that any criticism of Israel amounts to anti-Semitism.

    Vladimir Putin must be wishing he could have pulled a trick like that.
    The extreme right do and say all sorts of bad and stupid things. That kind of whataboutery doesn't let the Labour Party off the hook. The most vociferous Labour Party members on the subject claim their criticism is about the state of Israel, which is perfectly OK if it were limited to that, but for many who like to attack "Zionism" it is just code for their racist hatred of Jews and the stereotypical association of Jewry with global capitalism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    I’m not sure I get this argument about dramas that “have no likeable characters”

    It can be an issue if you like to have someone to root for, but it can also be a pleasure to watch an entire cast of delicious villains

    Succession is the prime example. Not a single heroic or virtuous character. Yet - for me - some of the best tv drama of the decade so far

    In fact it wouid have been ridiculous if they’d suddenly introduced someone “nice”. Totally jarring
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    Under the radar (imo brilliant) tv shows include:

    When They See Us
    The Night Of
    Fargo (all seasons, 4 was weakest)
    Beef (dark humour)
    Black Mirror
    The Americans
    Mindhunter
    Manhunt: Unabomber
    Flint Town (doc)
    Small Axe
    Superstore (for some levity, one of the funniest shows on tv)
  • Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    And yet any number of Tories are happy to share platforms with him and invite him to join their party.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    Leon said:

    I’m not sure I get this argument about dramas that “have no likeable characters”

    It can be an issue if you like to have someone to root for, but it can also be a pleasure to watch an entire cast of delicious villains

    Succession is the prime example. Not a single heroic or virtuous character. Yet - for me - some of the best tv drama of the decade so far

    In fact it wouid have been ridiculous if they’d suddenly introduced someone “nice”. Totally jarring

    The problem with Ozark was that the characters were irksome, rather than not likeable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    Russia turns Sweden’s Home Guard into a recruitment triumph
    https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-turns-swedens-home-guard-turns-recruitment-success/
  • Leon said:

    I’m not sure I get this argument about dramas that “have no likeable characters”

    It can be an issue if you like to have someone to root for, but it can also be a pleasure to watch an entire cast of delicious villains

    Succession is the prime example. Not a single heroic or virtuous character. Yet - for me - some of the best tv drama of the decade so far

    In fact it wouid have been ridiculous if they’d suddenly introduced someone “nice”. Totally jarring

    Good writers are able to confuse the reader or viewer by encouraging him/her to like despicable characters. An outstanding example is Arthur Shelby in Peaky Blinders.
  • The extreme right do and say all sorts of bad and stupid things. That kind of whataboutery doesn't let the Labour Party off the hook. The most vociferous Labour Party members on the subject claim their criticism is about the state of Israel, which is perfectly OK if it were limited to that, but for many who like to attack "Zionism" it is just code for their racist hatred of Jews and the stereotypical association of Jewry with global capitalism.

    Yep, that's true. And on the right it's the Soros references that give the game away.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/theresa-mays-former-aide-accused-of-using-antisemitic-slur-in-brexit-article-on-george-soros-a8xjf9tf

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,658
    Leon said:

    I’m not sure I get this argument about dramas that “have no likeable characters”

    It can be an issue if you like to have someone to root for, but it can also be a pleasure to watch an entire cast of delicious villains

    Succession is the prime example. Not a single heroic or virtuous character. Yet - for me - some of the best tv drama of the decade so far

    In fact it wouid have been ridiculous if they’d suddenly introduced someone “nice”. Totally jarring

    The genius of Succession was that each character had a weakness hence became sympathetic at different times. You don't have to like them, but can understand their motivation.

    As I mentioned I'm watching The Morning Show atm and there are no sympathetic or nice characters there and I'm struggling to find anything to latch onto. I hope they all fall into a hole.

    Not so with Succession.
  • Nigel Farage has been condemned by the UK’s main Jewish groups and MPs for repeatedly using language and themes associated with far-right antisemitic conspiracy theories, something for which he has been previously criticised.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Farage’s airing of claims about plots to undermine national governments, and his references to Goldman Sachs and the financier George Soros, showed he was seeking to “trade in dog whistles”.

    The Brexit party leader, who has been criticised for agreeing to interviews with openly antisemitic US media personalities, was also condemned by the MPs who co-chair the all-party group against antisemitism.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles

    And yet any number of Tories are happy to share platforms with him and invite him to join their party.

    I have long believed him to be a fascist. Looks like one, behaves like one and probably smells like one. Judge a man by the company he keeps my dear old mum used to say. Trump.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    Nigelb said:

    The problem with Ozark was that the characters were irksome, rather than not likeable.
    Indeed

    It occurs to me you can get away with entirely odious characters as long as they are entertainingly so - eg if they are mesmerisingly devious or cruelly funny

    That’s how Succession got away with it

  • Cicero said:

    All the slavic languages have a rich vocabulary of filth, and the structure of the verbs allows the expression of concepts which are not only physically challenging, but baroque in their intensity.

    In Estonian, by contrast, it is quite hard to swear at all...
    Mum swears at me all the time in the Malayalam language, especially when I read PB at the dinner table :lol:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    Phnom Penh has absolutely massive fruit bats living in the centre of the city. Only just noticed

    I am standing on my balcony in my shorts. I was trying to work out what kind of melanistic condor lives in Indochina and hunts nocturnally

    Ah. Bats. Enormous bats
  • Yep, that's true. And on the right it's the Soros references that give the game away.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/theresa-mays-former-aide-accused-of-using-antisemitic-slur-in-brexit-article-on-george-soros-a8xjf9tf

    Anti-Semitism is everywhere, but your argument seems to be "oh look we have found some examples in the Tory Party, so that means it is OK in the Labour Party". Shame you take this view. Labour has a MASSIVE problem with this. Starmer has not yet sorted it, by a long way
  • I have long believed him to be a fascist. Looks like one, behaves like one and probably smells like one. Judge a man by the company he keeps my dear old mum used to say. Trump.

    Yep - but a lot of very prominent Tories are very happy to be seen in his company and to invite him to join their party. Antisemitism is not just a Labour problem, though it absolutely is a Labour problem.
  • Leon said:

    Phnom Penh has absolutely massive fruit bats living in the centre of the city. Only just noticed

    I am standing on my balcony in my shorts. I was trying to work out what kind of melanistic condor lives in Indochina and hunts nocturnally

    Ah. Bats. Enormous bats

    Do they taste like chicken?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,443
    edited February 2024
    Leon said:

    Indeed

    It occurs to me you can get away with entirely odious characters as long as they are entertainingly so - eg if they are mesmerisingly devious or cruelly funny

    That’s how Succession got away with it

    Gus Fring, Lalo Salamanca, Al Swearingen, Batiatus, Livia, Jordan Belfort, pretty well any important character in the Sopranos, are moral lepers, but utterly compelling.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,443
    Cicero said:

    All the slavic languages have a rich vocabulary of filth, and the structure of the verbs allows the expression of concepts which are not only physically challenging, but baroque in their intensity.

    In Estonian, by contrast, it is quite hard to swear at all...
    No language is more joyously filthy than Yiddish.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    TOPPING said:

    The genius of Succession was that each character had a weakness hence became sympathetic at different times. You don't have to like them, but can understand their motivation.

    As I mentioned I'm watching The Morning Show atm and there are no sympathetic or nice characters there and I'm struggling to find anything to latch onto. I hope they all fall into a hole.

    Not so with Succession.
    Yeah I struggled with the morning show. Its ok. But not remotely compelling

    And yes you’re right about succession. You do find yourself sympathising with absolute rotters as they shift the focus

    Also it never ebbed. I can’t remember a “bad” episode. Always good

    And always so funny. Top class writing

    I hope the makers have kept that writing team together to do something else. British I believe?

    Ok I’m gonna watch Boiling Point the movie!

    🥂🥂
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,067

    Mum swears at me all the time in the Malayalam language, especially when I read PB at the dinner table :lol:
    Now you listen to your Mother about those bad habits!

    Not that I do 😆
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,041
    Sean_F said:

    Gus Fring, Lalo Salamanca, Al Swearingen, Batiatus, Jordan Belfort, pretty well any important character in the Sopranos, are moral lepers, but utterly compelling.
    Entertainment should be entertaining.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,041

    Do they taste like chicken?
    You're suggesting that @Leon goes to the wet market and buys some bat? In South East Asia?
  • Anti-Semitism is everywhere, but your argument seems to be "oh look we have found some examples in the Tory Party, so that means it is OK in the Labour Party". Shame you take this view. Labour has a MASSIVE problem with this. Starmer has not yet sorted it, by a long way

    No, my attitude is that it needs to be called out everywhere, not just where it is politically convenient, and at least Starmer is actively doing something about it inside Labour. Meanwhile, Soros conspiracy theorists are being feted by prominent Tories and selected as Tory parliamentary candidates, and Tories who write about Jews controlling the media become PM!

  • Leon said:

    Yeah I struggled with the morning show. Its ok. But not remotely compelling

    And yes you’re right about succession. You do find yourself sympathising with absolute rotters as they shift the focus

    Also it never ebbed. I can’t remember a “bad” episode. Always good

    And always so funny. Top class writing

    I hope the makers have kept that writing team together to do something else. British I believe?

    Ok I’m gonna watch Boiling Point the movie!

    🥂🥂

    My favourite character in Succession was the grifting Englishman who married Logan Roy's first wife. A minor part in the great scheme of things but brilliantly observed and entirely revolting.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388

    Mum swears at me all the time in the Malayalam language, especially when I read PB at the dinner table :lol:
    And on what are those rude words based ?
  • Nigelb said:

    The paranoid right obsession with Soros - particularly in the context of the numous billionaire "unelected globalists shaping the public’s lives" who finance their own favoured schemes - is barely explicable without looking in the direction of antisemitism.

    It's gold-plated, establishment, pre-Israel antisemitism.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388

    Good writers are able to confuse the reader or viewer by encouraging him/her to like despicable characters. An outstanding example is Arthur Shelby in Peaky Blinders.
    Barry.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,041
    Nigelb said:

    The paranoid right obsession with Soros - particularly in the context of the numous billionaire "unelected globalists shaping the public’s lives" who finance their own favoured schemes - is barely explicable without looking in the direction of antisemitism.
    It also reminds me of the classic "falling off the edge of critiques of the rich",

    Soros being a billionaire who unashamedly uses his wealth to intervene in the public discourse.

    So you have people criticising the power of Capital etc.

    Then some of them fall over the edge of "Rich = Jews"
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,555
    On topic! https://x.com/dncwarroom/status/1757576435504390238

    “Lara Trump says if she is elected as co-Chair of the Republican Party, “every single penny” of party funding will be spent toward Donald Trump”

    For once a politician says something you can believe! Fingers crossed this happens, because that’s how the Republicans lose the House and maybe fail to take the Senate.
  • Sean_F said:

    No language is more joyously filthy than Yiddish.
    "If I had known I was gonna meet the president, I would've worn a tie. I mean, look at me. I look like a schlemiel!"
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,265
    edited February 2024

    I have long believed him to be a fascist. Looks like one, behaves like one and probably smells like one. Judge a man by the company he keeps my dear old mum used to say. Trump.
    One of the things the right has done, fairly sucessfully, is keep the really unpleasant people and stuff at one remove. Farage and Staines are unwelcome uncles who (mostly) get shunned at family gatherings.

    For various reasons, that's changed, and not in a good way. Partly because they are so useful. But only as long as the mainstream response can be "nothing to do with us, but maybe he has a point, doesn't he?"
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    Leon said:

    Indeed

    It occurs to me you can get away with entirely odious characters as long as they are entertainingly so - eg if they are mesmerisingly devious or cruelly funny

    That’s how Succession got away with it

    You've got to have some reason to care.

    The Eight Deadly Words are: "I don't care what happens to these people."
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,067

    Ha, ha - you know what I mean!

    Yes. Savanta needs to change its name to something that doesn’t begin with S 🙂

    Hawkins Nat Labs will solve this thorny issue
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388

    It also reminds me of the classic "falling off the edge of critiques of the rich",

    Soros being a billionaire who unashamedly uses his wealth to intervene in the public discourse.

    So you have people criticising the power of Capital etc.

    Then some of them fall over the edge of "Rich = Jews"
    The US right are capitalists selectively criticising the power of capital.
    It's just bizarre.
  • Nigelb said:

    The paranoid right obsession with Soros - particularly in the context of the numous billionaire "unelected globalists shaping the public’s lives" who finance their own favoured schemes - is barely explicable without looking in the direction of antisemitism.
    I don't think the Soros obsession is limited to the intellectually clueless right wing frother. My problem with the "whataboutery" in this discussion is this: The Labour Party, until recently had a leader who referred to Jewish people as follows: "They don't understand irony" and endorsed a mural that was so obviously anti-Semitic you would have to be blind or intensely stupid (even more so than Corbyn) not to realise. Starmer endorsed Corbyn and attempted to persuade us he should be PM.

    Did Starmer not notice that Corbyn expressed these views, or did he only care about it when he realised that it would be necessary to de-toxify his brand?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,443

    It's gold-plated, establishment, pre-Israel antisemitism.

    "A little white-faced Jew, with an eye like a rattlesnake!"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,385
    Nigelb said:

    The problem with Ozark was that the characters were irksome, rather than not likeable.
    It worked for me the first couple of seasons, but that might have been residual love of Jason Bateman.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388

    I don't think the Soros obsession is limited to the intellectually clueless right wing frother. My problem with the "whataboutery" in this discussion is this: The Labour Party, until recently had a leader who referred to Jewish people as follows: "They don't understand irony" and endorsed a mural that was so obviously anti-Semitic you would have to be blind or intensely stupid (even more so than Corbyn) not to realise. Starmer endorsed Corbyn and attempted to persuade us he should be PM.

    Did Starmer not notice that Corbyn expressed these views, or did he only care about it when he realised that it would be necessary to de-toxify his brand?
    I don't really care.
    I'm more interested in his continuing to do the right thing than in some futile parsing of his motives.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,148
    Nigelb said:

    The US right are capitalists selectively criticising the power of capital.
    It's just bizarre.
    They can see that capital hasn't delivered for a lot of people in the US recently, so they know that if they don't criticise the power of capital someone else will. This way they get to control the message. Surprise! It doesn't involve curtailing their power or wealth.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,067

    Anti-Semitism is everywhere, but your argument seems to be "oh look we have found some examples in the Tory Party, so that means it is OK in the Labour Party". Shame you take this view. Labour has a MASSIVE problem with this. Starmer has not yet sorted it, by a long way
    Regardless what some media outlets say, regardless what Labours political opponents say, can we agree on PB - we currently have zero evidence Azhar Ali has said anything antisemitic?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,388
    kle4 said:

    It worked for me the first couple of seasons, but that might have been residual love of Jason Bateman.
    It cured me of that rather more quickly.
  • Nigelb said:

    And on what are those rude words based ?
    Naayendemon!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,041
    Nigelb said:

    The US right are capitalists selectively criticising the power of capital.
    It's just bizarre.
    The US Hard Right is just bizarre. Their complete inability to understand the word hypocrisy is only a small part of it. I say Hard Right, because where do you put Romney etc?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,504
    Actually before I go this really is quite an important story


    “At the beleaguered @guardian online ad revenue is down 16% & are forecasting a loss of £39m.

    Editor-in-chief, @KathViner has warned staff to brace themselves for redundancies.”

    https://x.com/daveatherton20/status/1757691652519481474?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There is a serious chance the Guardian will disappear. That’s an enormous change in our media ecosystem

    And much as I despise their woke politics and “x and x is racist” journalism-by-numbers that would be a sad loss for UK media
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,385

    You've got to have some reason to care.

    The Eight Deadly Words are: "I don't care what happens to these people."
    A similar process can happen when something is just unrelentingly bleak. With no emotional peaks or troughs a story and characters are just tedious. But hack writers think sad equals emotionally powerful.

    Even Schindlers List found a few moments of humour to break things up.
  • I don't think the Soros obsession is limited to the intellectually clueless right wing frother. My problem with the "whataboutery" in this discussion is this: The Labour Party, until recently had a leader who referred to Jewish people as follows: "They don't understand irony" and endorsed a mural that was so obviously anti-Semitic you would have to be blind or intensely stupid (even more so than Corbyn) not to realise. Starmer endorsed Corbyn and attempted to persuade us he should be PM.

    Did Starmer not notice that Corbyn expressed these views, or did he only care about it when he realised that it would be necessary to de-toxify his brand?
    Or did he always care, but not as much as he cared about furthering his own career and climbing the greasy pole?
  • Sean_F said:

    "A little white-faced Jew, with an eye like a rattlesnake!"
    "And that's not just good old-fashioned Jew-hating talk. It's policy now."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,607
    Nigelb said:

    The problem with Ozark was that the characters were irksome, rather than not likeable.
    I got well into Marty. The normcore look, the total lack of flamboyance, the flat deadpan way he navigated through incredibly hairy situations. You'd have thought a lead character like that would struggle to hold attention but for me it was the opposite.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,560
    Election timing:

    - If the Tories get to within about 7 points on average polling they go straight away. It won't happen.

    - If they recover a little in Spring, to within 15 points, but the party is still fractious, the push-pull of going may still determine a May election

    - Any recovery to within 15 up to late April still gives the push-pull effect, discontent about May LE results would be spiked by the campaign for an early June election.

    - If we get to September, we start looking more in terms of timing considerations rather than polling considerations. Are plots still afoot, can we afford the Tory conference, can we go under the shadow of the US election, what about Christmas. I tend to disregard where King Charles is in all this, feeling there are ways and means to do all the protocol stuff whenever required and that CHOGM is something of a red herring.
  • Nigelb said:

    I don't really care.
    I'm more interested in his continuing to do the right thing than in some futile parsing of his motives.
    I think a legitimate question to Starmer should be: "When did you first think that Jeremy Corbyn's views might indicate he was anti-Semitic?"

    With respect to "doing the right thing", I respectfully suggest that someone's motives may indicate whether they are trying to genuinely do the right thing or whether they simply consider it to be expedient to *appear* to do so. The two do not necessarily result in "the right thing" ultimately triumphing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,385
    Leon said:

    Actually before I go this really is quite an important story


    “At the beleaguered @guardian online ad revenue is down 16% & are forecasting a loss of £39m.

    Editor-in-chief, @KathViner has warned staff to brace themselves for redundancies.”

    https://x.com/daveatherton20/status/1757691652519481474?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There is a serious chance the Guardian will disappear. That’s an enormous change in our media ecosystem

    And much as I despise their woke politics and “x and x is racist” journalism-by-numbers that would be a sad loss for UK media

    People don't want to pay for news, and lots of people will give out for free 'news' untethered by inconvenient facts or opinions. I'm surprised we still have any professionals left.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,821
    edited February 2024
    Nigelb said:

    The US right are capitalists selectively criticising the power of capital.
    It's just bizarre.
    Albeit in 2020 Wall Street firms gave $74 million to Biden but only $18 million to Trump.

    While they may be wary of the more leftwing Sanders, Biden and Hillary are fine for big capital against the protectionist, pro tariff Trump.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/wall-street-spends-74-million-to-support-joe-biden.html

    Indeed the last time Wall Street gave more to the GOP nominee for President was 2012 when it gave $20 million to Romney but less than $6 million to Obama

    https://money.cnn.com/2012/11/06/investing/stocks-election-obama-romney/index.html
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,464
    On topic.

    AIUI

    1. Dems are winning elections.
    2. Dems control the Senate and the House, though not enough in the Senate to pass whatever legislation they like.
    3. Current balance in the House: Republican 219, Democrat 213, Vacant 3. 435 seats, Maj requires 218.
    (3 of each side are put into non-voting positions.)
    4. Vacant seats are required to be filled within approx 100 days.

    Therefore there is not yet an immediate prospect of the Dems winning a majority in the short term, despite the MAGA Republicans spending so much effort on kneecapping themselves.

    Though it is getting closer.
This discussion has been closed.