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What’s happening with the polling “don’t knows” – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes it is a thing unfortunately. In South London at least. People seem to use each new shift in technology as an opportunity to be more obnoxious and thoughtless to their fellow human beings.
    I use the bus a lot and I can't say I have come across this at all. I am but a mere provincial though. Perhaps we have got this to look forward to?
    Probably, where London leads the rest of the country will follow.
    I imagine part of the issue is that phones often don't have a headphones socket anymore, so people have to either hold onto headphones with a USB C connector or use Bluetooth headphones and keep them charged. So it's harder to use with headphones, some will have just not bothered, then it becomes a norm. The worst thing is you realise how people aren't even listening to whole songs. Just shirt bursts on tiktok or whatever. Devices have been so negative for human mental health, concentration and intelligence IMHO. They seem to have facilitated the worst aspects of human nature and behaviour consistently.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    The LDs are going to have to think very hard about strategy if Labour win a huge majority. Labour's recent experience of Corbynism (for better or worse) is, I suspect, going to solidify their position as more of a social democratic party than ever before - without the neo-Liberalism-tinged ideology of the Blair era.

    That is going to require some manoeuvring from the rest of the centre left.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, it really is a thing. Yes, it is *deeply* annoying, when they are rewatching the same TikTok boomerang again and again.
    Seriously?

    On buses only? Or elsewhere? There are people on that thread saying it is everywhere

    I take a few Tubes and trains and I've not seen it there. Yet
    I’ve noticed very few people these days seem to leave the room or, for example get up from a table at a social occasion and move away, to take calls. I find it really rude to sit there having a phone call in other people’s presence (apart from at work obviously) and noticed it massively increase probably over the least ten years or so.

    I might just be a misery guts but it’s quite obnoxious.
    It is absolutely obnoxious and antisocial. I've got a couple of good friends that do it and I politely roll my eyes but frankly I want to slap them

    Just go somewhere quiet, it's basic good manners
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    a

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes it is a thing unfortunately. In South London at least. People seem to use each new shift in technology as an opportunity to be more obnoxious and thoughtless to their fellow human beings.
    I use the bus a lot and I can't say I have come across this at all. I am but a mere provincial though. Perhaps we have got this to look forward to?
    There was a chap who regularly was on the same District line train as me. Had some kind of booster device for his headphones, attached to his phone, so the music was annoyingly loud to everyone else. Given they were the massive, over ear, type, can only imagine the level he was experiencing.

    My wife got a bit upset, when I said to her that the problem would have a fairly short lifespan. But would get worse for a little while longer.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, it really is a thing. Yes, it is *deeply* annoying, when they are rewatching the same TikTok boomerang again and again.
    Seriously?

    On buses only? Or elsewhere? There are people on that thread saying it is everywhere

    I take a few Tubes and trains and I've not seen it there. Yet
    I’ve noticed very few people these days seem to leave the room or, for example get up from a table at a social occasion and move away, to take calls. I find it really rude to sit there having a phone call in other people’s presence (apart from at work obviously) and noticed it massively increase probably over the least ten years or so.

    I might just be a misery guts but it’s quite obnoxious.
    It is absolutely obnoxious and antisocial. I've got a couple of good friends that do it and I politely roll my eyes but frankly I want to slap them

    Just go somewhere quiet, it's basic good manners
    100%, it is very annoying. I don’t really like being overheard so I always go into a different room or in the garden when on the phone… so I’m not being considerate, but may appear so
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    Most people are looking at the parties in general - you are looking at specific issues. The Lib Dems are also adept at picking up local issues to get an edge. Using the Green/NIMBY nexus is SOP.

    The LibDems are trying to be Social Democrats in the European party sense of the word.

    Starmer is trying to move Labour to a similar position.

    It's therefore not surprising that the two parties are seen as similar.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    edited February 5
    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    I use my 10yo as a barometer for "how political parties are perceived by people who don't really pay any attention to politics". Their summary (and I quote) is that:

    1. the Tories are "the bad guys" (this opinion largely comes from antipathy towards a faction of boys in their class being 'Boris Superfans' in order to annoy people),
    2. Labour are "the good guys"
    3. the Greens "think most about the future and saving the planet"
    4. Who are the Liberal Democrats? Are they the orange plackards?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, it really is a thing. Yes, it is *deeply* annoying, when they are rewatching the same TikTok boomerang again and again.
    Seriously?

    On buses only? Or elsewhere? There are people on that thread saying it is everywhere

    I take a few Tubes and trains and I've not seen it there. Yet
    I’ve noticed very few people these days seem to leave the room or, for example get up from a table at a social occasion and move away, to take calls. I find it really rude to sit there having a phone call in other people’s presence (apart from at work obviously) and noticed it massively increase probably over the least ten years or so.

    I might just be a misery guts but it’s quite obnoxious.
    It is absolutely obnoxious and antisocial. I've got a couple of good friends that do it and I politely roll my eyes but frankly I want to slap them

    Just go somewhere quiet, it's basic good manners
    100%, it is very annoying. I don’t really like being overheard so I always go into a different room or in the garden when on the phone… so I’m not being considerate, but may appear so
    For me, it is both

    I don't want to be overheard, but - and this may amaze you - I am well mannered and emotionally aware, and don't want to be rude to others, and it is seriously rude
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,954
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    That's an important point. It is absolutely not just teenagers.
    Lots of subsets in there:

    Deaf older people
    Arsehole teenagers
    Boomers who don't know how to turn sound off (including during tennis matches and cinema)
    People looking for a fight (also taking up two spots with bags)
    People with pretty serious mental health issues
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,713
    Eabhal said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    That's an important point. It is absolutely not just teenagers.
    Lots of subsets in there:

    Deaf older people
    Arsehole teenagers
    Boomers who don't know how to turn sound off (including during tennis matches and cinema)
    People looking for a fight (also taking up two spots with bags)
    People with pretty serious mental health issues
    The bag thing gets me. I've been in trains where the aisle is absolutely crammed with people standing, but someone still insists on sitting there with their sodding bag taking up the adjoining seat. What, really, is the mentality?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,453

    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    Most people are looking at the parties in general - you are looking at specific issues. The Lib Dems are also adept at picking up local issues to get an edge. Using the Green/NIMBY nexus is SOP.

    The LibDems are trying to be Social Democrats in the European party sense of the word.

    Starmer is trying to move Labour to a similar position.

    It's therefore not surprising that the two parties are seen as similar.
    It's an obvious thing to do- right now, it's probably where the votes are. And there are definitely worse ways to run a country. But the Lib Dems are always going to come second in a fight for that slot.

    The other gap in the market right now looks like the "coaliation wasn't that bad, really", centre-rightist dads, if you like. Noone is really going for that vote, which is annoying for those of us in that space.

    Is that ground just too toxic for anyone to want to occupy?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Sad news for Rugby Union fans, especially Welsh ones. Barry John has died. He was 79.

    Well I thought he had already succumbed. He was a big drinker, lost his licence a few times. Quite a sad final decade, which is unfortunate. He was a great outside half, but retired young at his peak. In our household though he was no Phil Bennett.

    Quite a few of the1970s Welsh Triple Crowners are falling off the perch in their mid and late seventies. I genuinely expect the vast intake of Double Dragon, Reverend James and Brains S.A.has taken its toll. They should have listened to the Minister in Chapel on Sunday, played their rugby and avoided the demon drink.

    Very sad.
    A pub in the town where I live used to get Rev James as a guest beer every so often. Very good drink indeed.
    Sadly the pub hasn’t got a wheelchair-friendly entrance so I haven’t been able to check whether they still have it for a year or so.
    Have you considered asking them to make reasonable adjustments, as is the legal requirement?

    Or is there a good reason why it is impossible?

    (If they are like most places, they will do nothing and happily ignore the rules, until someone makes them do something.)
    I think that part (not all) of the reason for inaction is that they are a ‘listed building’ and the significant alterations which would be necessary would be structurally significant and therefore practically impossible.
    But thanks for the thought.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    That is the pleasure of mixing with the great unwashed, unprincipled, thick and no manners. Refrain from public transport unless life in danger.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,040
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given most of those DKs voted Tory last time, the size of Starmer's majority or whether he gets any majority at all could depend on whether Sunak can squeeze them or not

    Richi couldn't squeeze a grape...
    But he enjoys a nut every Monday while fasting.

    Anyway, it was Stu Francis who could crush a grape.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    That is the pleasure of mixing with the great unwashed, unprincipled, thick and no manners. Refrain from public transport unless life in danger.
    The way things are going I shall refrain from Britain entirely

    East Asia, even when dramatically poorer, is in quite serious ways more civilised than Western Europe/USA now

    Crime, for a start

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342
    mwadams said:

    Carnyx said:

    First and foremost, 'those that don't know. don't vote'.

    Those that don't vote, don't count.
    Those that can't count, vote twice.
    THose who get to do the proxies from emigrants, vote many, many times the way they want. (And who's to know? It's illegal to photograph a ballot form.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,865
    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    .
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    That's an important point. It is absolutely not just teenagers.
    It's even more annoying in the coffee shop where you're trying to read a book.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710
    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    It’s certainly making this Left of Centre voter review his previous Labour inclination.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Big picture looking at next GE will be the almighty drop in the Tories (& SNP) actual votes I reckon:

    How would this lot shake out to seats:

    Lab 13M
    Con 8M
    LD 3.5M
    SNP 600k
    Green 2M
    Brexit 2M
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605
    Nigelb said:

    .

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    That's an important point. It is absolutely not just teenagers.
    It's even more annoying in the coffee shop where you're trying to read a book.
    Coffee shop? Really?

    How come I’ve missed this phenomenon entirely. I know I’m away a lot but I’m still home 5-6 months of the year and I live in London

    Anyway it is all the more reason to live inside an Apple Vision Pro. If the world is going to be antisocial, then…
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited February 5
    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,954
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    That is the pleasure of mixing with the great unwashed, unprincipled, thick and no manners. Refrain from public transport unless life in danger.
    And what a sad reflection that is on life in the UK.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342
    edited February 5
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    That's an important point. It is absolutely not just teenagers.
    It's even more annoying in the coffee shop where you're trying to read a book.
    Coffee shop? Really?

    How come I’ve missed this phenomenon entirely. I know I’m away a lot but I’m still home 5-6 months of the year and I live in London

    Anyway it is all the more reason to live inside an Apple Vision Pro. If the world is going to be antisocial, then…
    Maybe you need a hearing test? In all seriousness, at your (presumed) age.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Border Target Operating Model week 1.

    Can't get veterinary certificates issued in France, can't send this week's shipment of medium-risk meat products. So job stopped. We have perhaps 36 hours to get this moving or we're in danger of losing big chunks of the business we've built up in the UK over the last few years.

    'Medium risk meat' doesn't sound very appetising.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,287
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
  • Nigelb said:

    Border Target Operating Model week 1.

    Can't get veterinary certificates issued in France, can't send this week's shipment of medium-risk meat products. So job stopped. We have perhaps 36 hours to get this moving or we're in danger of losing big chunks of the business we've built up in the UK over the last few years.

    'Medium risk meat' doesn't sound very appetising.
    Raw meat: High Risk
    Processed meat: Medium Risk
    Cooked Meat: Low Risk

    With different processes for each...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,395
    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    Dear Mr & Ms Scientists
    Yes, I like science too. And it has to be said that if you are going to waste public money, giving it to scientists to do science well is better than giving it to bankers to do banking badly. But we are a bit strapped for the moment. Can this wait for a decade plz?
    XXX, viewcode
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    Nigelb said:

    Border Target Operating Model week 1.

    Can't get veterinary certificates issued in France, can't send this week's shipment of medium-risk meat products. So job stopped. We have perhaps 36 hours to get this moving or we're in danger of losing big chunks of the business we've built up in the UK over the last few years.

    'Medium risk meat' doesn't sound very appetising.
    Raw meat: High Risk
    Processed meat: Medium Risk
    Cooked Meat: Low Risk

    With different processes for each...
    Nigel was right, then. Medium risk meat isn't very appealing :wink:
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,040

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    It is mostly young people round here schoolkids and older. Ignorant renters.

    I have my music on when I’m cycling playing from my phone. Why not. Others do it and it is outdoors so bothers no one. On the bus or train I have my headphones in.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
    Most buses I get have very few white people on them so it would be hard to do some kind of analysis (if that was your thing, which it isn't for me).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    But I was talking about how the Vision Pro will replace our interaction with hardware SCREENS not social life on the streets

    And it is true. You just need to extrapolate. The sceeen experience will be miles better on these things than on real hardware. Makers of tablets, desktops, laptops, games consoles, and to an extent TVs should be worried. Maybe even smartphones eventually

    Here is one screen to rule them all.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
    What was it Mrs Thatcher said about people over 30 using buses?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    For a multinational project, it's not that expensive...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?
    They should stop screwing around and just build a Planck Energy accelerator.

    I mean sure, it *might* destroy the universe, but Real Men (TM) don't mind a bit of risk.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    For a multinational project, it's not that expensive...
    Yeah that was my thought actually, if we tried to replicate this in the UK you would probably 10* the bill.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
    What was it Mrs Thatcher said about people over 30 using buses?
    She was a frightful snob. :smile:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Nigelb said:

    Border Target Operating Model week 1.

    Can't get veterinary certificates issued in France, can't send this week's shipment of medium-risk meat products. So job stopped. We have perhaps 36 hours to get this moving or we're in danger of losing big chunks of the business we've built up in the UK over the last few years.

    'Medium risk meat' doesn't sound very appetising.
    “Eat recycled food, for a happier, healthier life. Recycled food: it’s good for the environment and OK for you.”
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,076
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    That is the pleasure of mixing with the great unwashed, unprincipled, thick and no manners. Refrain from public transport unless life in danger.
    Now, I'm a great enthusiast for public transport - but it's hard to see and quite fun to imagine what sort of life-endangering circumstance might encourage you to get a bus when you'd previously refused to do so. "Oh shit, look at the sea: there's a tsunami coming. I hope this bus turns up so that I can flee the scene at an average speed of 12mph."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Fun bit of speculative alt history.

    How Kennedy Narrowly Defeated Nixon — and Why the Alternative History Would Have Been Devastating
    The 1960 election was closer than you think. And had Nixon won, it might have meant nuclear war.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/04/1960-election-jfk-nixon-nuclear-war-00136763

    The bit about MLK's dad was new to me.
    I didn't realise he was something of an anti Catholic bigot (and JFK's comment was priceless).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
    What was it Mrs Thatcher said about people over 30 using buses?
    She was a frightful snob. :smile:
    She was, but did she actually say it?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,076

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    ‘Tie himself in knots’: White House hits Speaker Johnson over border security

    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4447604-tie-himself-in-knots-white-house-hits-speaker-johnson-over-border-security/
    The White House went after Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) on Sunday after he criticized the Biden administration’s handling of the border and ongoing negotiations over the Senate border security deal.
    In a “Meet the Press” interview Sunday, Johnson admitted that he was not privy to Senate negotiations on the bill and appeared to contradict himself, saying that President Biden must immediately use executive authority to secure the border, and that he requires new legislation in order to do so...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    So like a certain flint knapper in his customary state?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
    What was it Mrs Thatcher said about people over 30 using buses?
    She was a frightful snob. :smile:
    She was, but did she actually say it?
    No idea.
    (We were never that close.)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,713

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    TwiX is convinced it is a racial thing (I take no sides as I have never experienced it)

    A lot of people saying it is more common with black and Asian people. They might simply be racist or mad (this is TwiX), however there are black and Asian people saying "Yeah I do this, it's what I prefer, cope with it"

    What a to-do
    I would guess* that black and Asian people are over-represented on buses, at least among those under 30 or so, so there could well be a perception of this just because there are more people from those groups.

    I took two buses a couple of weeks ago, to and from a station -> university building (not my uni - I had time enough so thought I'd save money/the world by not going for a taxi :smile: ). There was one incident of this, on one journey, with a guy in his 20s (I'd guess) who was black. It wasn't particularly loud and didn't bother me really, but I can get why it would bother people. The two old biddies behind me shouting at each other (I guess they were both a bit deaf - the conversation was amicable) were more distracting.

    *thinking broadly about deprivation correlation with bus use and also demographics within some cities where bus use might be more common
    What was it Mrs Thatcher said about people over 30 using buses?
    A mis-quotation apparently - was actually said by the Duchess of Westminster. I always thought it would have been a strange thing for Maggie to say. Surely the suburban commuter climbing aboard a bus with his briefcase and Times thrust under his arm was the very essence of her tribe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,395
    edited February 5
    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    Great question. Do you believe that what we see now (LLMs) are anywhere close to AGI?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,076
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    It's got to have the feel of pressing a button too. Just mashing your fingers into empty air feels ridiculous. Try it now. Most unsatisfying, clicks or not.
    I'm sure it can be done. But it's not obvious how. But meanwhile it's very obvious that human interaction may become very odd, and that, say, if you are, for example, a barrista, of those customers in their snazzy AI glasses, an uncomfortably high proportion of them will be seeing you portrayed naked, or dressed in a manner of their choosing which is almost certainly not a manner of your choosing, or actually with someone else's face entirely.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    edited February 5
    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Slacker

    Build the accelerator just a tad bit more powerful. Accelerate the trains to 99.99999% of C.

    This will mean awesome science in the evenings. It may render this spiral arm of the Galaxy uninhabitable, but screw the NIMBies.

    EDIT: straight line *does* mean no Synchrotron radiation. So it saves on the 'leecy bill.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    edited February 5
    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Combine motive power for both - pretty sure atom smashers use magnets to control ions etc - just need touse them for the motive power of the trains too.

    Although as atom smashing is done in vacuo, perhaps its time to revisit Atmospheric Railways? Was Brunel right?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Combine motive power for both - pretty sure atom smashers use magnets to control ions etc - just need touse them for the motive power of the trains too.

    Although as atom smashing is done in vacuo, perhaps its time to revisit Atmospheric Railways? Was Brunel right?
    Hyperloop.....
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited February 5
    Buses are great, at least in London where they are run as a public service rather than as a deregulated feeding frenzy for the best routes.

    As for loudspeaker listening, ban it. While they are at it, ban food and drink on buses and tubes too for all but babes in arms. Nobody is so hungry they can’t wait until after their bus ride to eat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    It's got to have the feel of pressing a button too. Just mashing your fingers into empty air feels ridiculous. Try it now. Most unsatisfying, clicks or not.
    I'm sure it can be done. But it's not obvious how. But meanwhile it's very obvious that human interaction may become very odd, and that, say, if you are, for example, a barrista, of those customers in their snazzy AI glasses, an uncomfortably high proportion of them will be seeing you portrayed naked, or dressed in a manner of their choosing which is almost certainly not a manner of your choosing, or actually with someone else's face entirely.
    Looks perfectly natural to me ... ??
    https://twitter.com/tedgioia/status/1753979529041686962/mediaViewer
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,395
    edited February 5

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Combine motive power for both - pretty sure atom smashers use magnets to control ions etc - just need touse them for the motive power of the trains too.

    Although as atom smashing is done in vacuo, perhaps its time to revisit Atmospheric Railways? Was Brunel right?
    Hyperloop.....
    Elon Musk has his own spaceforce, controls satellite communications, can produce flamethrowers, has just produced an armoured personnel carrier disguised as a car, and is implanting electrodes into people to produce a loyal slave workforce/army. Let's pay for him to make a machine to make black holes. That'll work. :open_mouth:
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,865
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    For a multinational project, it's not that expensive...
    I have no problem with doing it. What is a bit of a cliche is the way that the next step is going to unlock the secret of the universe in some final sort of way that us plebs will comprehend. At what point do we acknowledge that empirical enquiry is an infinite Russian doll?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,453

    Buses are great, at least in London where they are run as a public service rather than as a deregulated feeding frenzy for the best routes.

    As for loudspeaker listening, ban it. While they are at it, ban food and drink on buses and tubes too for all but babes in arms. Nobody is so hungry they can’t wait until after their bus ride to eat.

    Either that, or (re)introduce proper buffet cars.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Buses are great, at least in London where they are run as a public service rather than as a deregulated feeding frenzy for the best routes.

    As for loudspeaker listening, ban it. While they are at it, ban food and drink on buses and tubes too for all but babes in arms. Nobody is so hungry they can’t wait until after their bus ride to eat.

    Either that, or (re)introduce proper buffet cars.
    On buses? 😄
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    edited February 5
    The Senate’s False Hope of a Grand Bargain Meets Its Trumpy Demise

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-bidens-washington/the-senates-false-hope-of-a-grand-bargain-meets-its-trumpy-demise
    ..Amid the recriminations on Wednesday, I happened to go up to Capitol Hill for a long-scheduled conversation with Senator Angus King, a low-key former governor of Maine, who refuses to join either party, though he caucuses with Democrats. King chairs the Senate Armed Services subcommittee that oversees America’s nuclear forces, and is a senior member of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He was as alarmed as I have ever seen him about the consequences of the whole mess. While Republicans fight among themselves, the Pentagon has already, as of January, run out of congressionally approved funds for its military assistance to Ukraine. In the now languishing bill, Biden has asked for an additional sixty billion dollars to aid the country; many in Washington now expect that, even if a vote on funds for Ukraine eventually happens, Republicans will insist on billions of dollars less for non-military assistance as the price for their votes. But even that may not happen and, in the meantime, the President’s vow to support Ukraine “as long as it takes” looks to be another hollow promise that a superpower divided against itself cannot keep. “I think this would be, if we don’t do it, the most serious foreign-policy mistake of our lifetimes,” King told me. “It will reverberate for fifty years.”..
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    It's got to have the feel of pressing a button too. Just mashing your fingers into empty air feels ridiculous. Try it now. Most unsatisfying, clicks or not.
    I'm sure it can be done. But it's not obvious how. But meanwhile it's very obvious that human interaction may become very odd, and that, say, if you are, for example, a barrista, of those customers in their snazzy AI glasses, an uncomfortably high proportion of them will be seeing you portrayed naked, or dressed in a manner of their choosing which is almost certainly not a manner of your choosing, or actually with someone else's face entirely.
    haptic gloves

    Watch Ready Player One...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    The solution is simply to play Dom Joly at full volume whenever they do it:

    https://youtu.be/30DcHyi-hZE?si=CjDIgwXfXhk4ETG-
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,722
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    For a multinational project, it's not that expensive...
    I have no problem with doing it. What is a bit of a cliche is the way that the next step is going to unlock the secret of the universe in some final sort of way that us plebs will comprehend. At what point do we acknowledge that empirical enquiry is an infinite Russian doll?
    That's cause for a Douglas Adams quote I think:

    “There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

    There is another theory which states that this has already happened.”


    The remarkable thing is that any of the universe is actually describable at all. I don't see why it should be a Russian Doll.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,395

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Slacker

    Build the accelerator just a tad bit more powerful. Accelerate the trains to 99.99999% of C.

    This will mean awesome science in the evenings. It may render this spiral arm of the Galaxy uninhabitable, but screw the NIMBies.

    EDIT: straight line *does* mean no Synchrotron radiation. So it saves on the 'leecy bill.
    At 99.99999% of C a commuter on a 2hr train from London to York will have a relativistically reduced subjective transit time of about four seconds. Admittedly will also be converted into a very thin red smear, but can't have everything.

    https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/time-dilation
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tracy Chapman’s voice is no different to how it was when she first sung Fast Car nearly 40 years ago
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    edited February 5
    isam said:

    Tracy Chapman’s voice is no different to how it was when she first sung Fast Car nearly 40 years ago

    Here is the full clip

    https://x.com/EZRideryoyall/status/1754317628661768555?s=20

    EDIT: My sincerest apologies, this link should have included a trigger warning as the video clearly shows Taylor Swift singing along to every word...
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    or abolish them entirely.

    One thing I have no idea about is why we have both district and county level in rural areas. My Dad's a councillor in a unitary (Coventry) and the system of having one councillor and council for your area simply seems so much more efficient than where I am/ I'm also convinced it's why my council tax is a bit higher than the counterfactual of similar banded properties in neighbouring unitaries (Rotherham/Doncaster) compared to Bassetlaw.
    I think a much stronger argument can be made for keeping parish/town rather than two levels at district/council as the responsibilities of those councils are far less and if you really want to get involved it's relatively easy to get elected and you can decide whether to have an annual village fete or whatever.
    I’ve always contended that here in Shropshire the districts were better at developing local solutions than the UA has been. My solution would have been to keep the districts, abolish the County Council and have the strategic stuff driven through regional government with an appropriate representative assembly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    It's got to have the feel of pressing a button too. Just mashing your fingers into empty air feels ridiculous. Try it now. Most unsatisfying, clicks or not.
    I'm sure it can be done. But it's not obvious how. But meanwhile it's very obvious that human interaction may become very odd, and that, say, if you are, for example, a barrista, of those customers in their snazzy AI glasses, an uncomfortably high proportion of them will be seeing you portrayed naked, or dressed in a manner of their choosing which is almost certainly not a manner of your choosing, or actually with someone else's face entirely.
    Maybe - or maybe not

    Imagine everytime you press the virtual key - say the letter "c" - to commence typing the sentence "Cookie isn't thinking very hard" - then when you hit the right key a massive C explodes for a millisecond in your face, with a brilliantly clicky noise, then O then O then K, the reflexive stimulation might easily be enough to compensate for the lack of tangible sensation in your fingertips

    In other words, we will get over it, so much cool technology feels bizarre and unrealistic before it happens. eg Imagine how people reacted to the first telephones. Talking into a weird bakelite mouth-cup thingy, to the disembodied voice of someone a hundred miles away? - no, that's unnatural, won't work, you need to have someone in front of you so you can properly converse, read their faces etc etc

    And of course for this tech to replace all screens it doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough that this is the only screen you need and then you can junk all the others and save a lot of time, money and space

    TV is a poser. People like watching TV socially. Yet these personal screens will give a vastly better TV experience

    Hard to know which will win, in that instance
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    @BBCNews

    Ian Lavender: Dad's Army star dies aged 77 https://bbc.in/49hhDTD
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    edited February 5
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    Yes, and it's ghastly and it's not just teenagers.

    Noticeable uptick in shouty aggression on the Lizzie Line as well. Everyone is just fed up.
    That's an important point. It is absolutely not just teenagers.
    It's even more annoying in the coffee shop where you're trying to read a book.
    Coffee shop? Really?

    How come I’ve missed this phenomenon entirely. I know I’m away a lot but I’m still home 5-6 months of the year and I live in London

    Anyway it is all the more reason to live inside an Apple Vision Pro. If the world is going to be antisocial, then…
    I have had to change place of work from a coffee shop that has lots of people playing videos on phones to a much nicer hotel bar/lounge/library that is full of people also working, taking calls etc. It's only downside is that it is a bus-ride away from my home...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,605

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    Great question. Do you believe that what we see now (LLMs) are anywhere close to AGI?
    That all depends on the definition of AGI - and of course people keep moving the goalposts, or they impose impossible-to-meet conditions like "is self-aware like a human"

    Probably the best practical definition is "a computer that can do most cognitive tasks as well as the average human", and if we accept that, I would say yes the latest LLMs are really quite close to AGI, but not there yet
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    It's got to have the feel of pressing a button too. Just mashing your fingers into empty air feels ridiculous. Try it now. Most unsatisfying, clicks or not.
    I'm sure it can be done. But it's not obvious how. But meanwhile it's very obvious that human interaction may become very odd, and that, say, if you are, for example, a barrista, of those customers in their snazzy AI glasses, an uncomfortably high proportion of them will be seeing you portrayed naked, or dressed in a manner of their choosing which is almost certainly not a manner of your choosing, or actually with someone else's face entirely.
    Maybe - or maybe not

    Imagine everytime you press the virtual key - say the letter "c" - to commence typing the sentence "Cookie isn't thinking very hard" - then when you hit the right key a massive C explodes for a millisecond in your face, with a brilliantly clicky noise, then O then O then K, the reflexive stimulation might easily be enough to compensate for the lack of tangible sensation in your fingertips

    In other words, we will get over it, so much cool technology feels bizarre and unrealistic before it happens. eg Imagine how people reacted to the first telephones. Talking into a weird bakelite mouth-cup thingy, to the disembodied voice of someone a hundred miles away? - no, that's unnatural, won't work, you need to have someone in front of you so you can properly converse, read their faces etc etc

    And of course for this tech to replace all screens it doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough that this is the only screen you need and then you can junk all the others and save a lot of time, money and space

    TV is a poser. People like watching TV socially. Yet these personal screens will give a vastly better TV experience

    Hard to know which will win, in that instance
    One of (many) best bits of Upstairs Downstairs is seeing Hudson get used to using the telephone.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Scott_xP said:

    @BBCNews

    Ian Lavender: Dad's Army star dies aged 77 https://bbc.in/49hhDTD

    Is he the last from the show?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567

    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    Most people are looking at the parties in general - you are looking at specific issues. The Lib Dems are also adept at picking up local issues to get an edge. Using the Green/NIMBY nexus is SOP.

    The LibDems are trying to be Social Democrats in the European party sense of the word.

    Starmer is trying to move Labour to a similar position.

    It's therefore not surprising that the two parties are seen as similar.
    It's an obvious thing to do- right now, it's probably where the votes are. And there are definitely worse ways to run a country. But the Lib Dems are always going to come second in a fight for that slot.

    The other gap in the market right now looks like the "coaliation wasn't that bad, really", centre-rightist dads, if you like. Noone is really going for that vote, which is annoying for those of us in that space.

    Is that ground just too toxic for anyone to want to occupy?
    Not sure. But certainly the LibDems in my two areas are using absolutely NONE of the issues that 148 mentions in their leaflets. Every leaflet says 1. Tories are awful. 2. Only we can beat them (with misproportioned bar chart etc.). 3. So vote for us. There is virtually nothing about policy - not even NIMBY issues.

    Labour's national leaflets are a bit more issue-related but still the same structure:

    1. Tories are awful on [issue - typically NHS or cost of living]. 2. Only Labour can replace them in government. 3. So vote for us.

    I'm biased, of course, hut I don't think the pure LibDem tactical vote spiel works as well as it used to. Partly that's because Labour can do it too - with polls as they are (Tories halved, Labour up by half, LibDems slightly down on 2019), there's a case for saying that Labour is the main challenger almost anywhere, cf. mid-Beds. But also the third party nationally needs a couple of issues to champion, or they just get drowned out. The obvious one is "Rejoin EU" but if they don't want that, maybe "Raise taxes on the rich to pay for services", as that's ground that Labour eyes with trepidation but lots of floating voters are absolutely up for.

  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Combine motive power for both - pretty sure atom smashers use magnets to control ions etc - just need touse them for the motive power of the trains too.

    Although as atom smashing is done in vacuo, perhaps its time to revisit Atmospheric Railways? Was Brunel right?
    Hyperloop.....
    Elon Musk has his own spaceforce, controls satellite communications, can produce flamethrowers, has just produced an armoured personnel carrier disguised as a car, and is implanting electrodes into people to produce a loyal slave workforce/army. Let's pay for him to make a machine to make black holes. That'll work. :open_mouth:
    Something of an aside, but I do not believe for one second that he's actually implanted a chip in any functional way into a real person's brain. In the same way as his self-driving car demos have turned out to be largely faked, his humanoid robot demo was fake, his APC doesn't work because it destroys its own tyres, hyperloop was totally without foundation and just a spoiler for other transport investments, etc. etc.

    He is a *spectacular* vomiter of reheated crap into the public discourse.

    The things he does have exist *despite* his public pronouncements.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Border Target Operating Model week 1.

    Can't get veterinary certificates issued in France, can't send this week's shipment of medium-risk meat products. So job stopped. We have perhaps 36 hours to get this moving or we're in danger of losing big chunks of the business we've built up in the UK over the last few years.

    'Medium risk meat' doesn't sound very appetising.
    Raw meat: High Risk
    Processed meat: Medium Risk
    Cooked Meat: Low Risk

    With different processes for each...
    Nigel was right, then. Medium risk meat isn't very appealing :wink:
    Spamming the discussion, I see. Naughty.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    or abolish them entirely.

    One thing I have no idea about is why we have both district and county level in rural areas. My Dad's a councillor in a unitary (Coventry) and the system of having one councillor and council for your area simply seems so much more efficient than where I am/ I'm also convinced it's why my council tax is a bit higher than the counterfactual of similar banded properties in neighbouring unitaries (Rotherham/Doncaster) compared to Bassetlaw.
    I think a much stronger argument can be made for keeping parish/town rather than two levels at district/council as the responsibilities of those councils are far less and if you really want to get involved it's relatively easy to get elected and you can decide whether to have an annual village fete or whatever.
    I’ve always contended that here in Shropshire the districts were better at developing local solutions than the UA has been. My solution would have been to keep the districts, abolish the County Council and have the strategic stuff driven through regional government with an appropriate representative assembly.
    That'd be fine too, it's just the weird situation of having district and county levels that I find odd.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    Tracy Chapman’s voice is no different to how it was when she first sung Fast Car nearly 40 years ago

    Here is the full clip

    https://x.com/EZRideryoyall/status/1754317628661768555?s=20
    A beautiful performance.

    When I left school I worked at the futures market for a couple of years, just as a runner. I didn’t like it much, and my favourite part of the day was going to the little garden behind St Swithins Lane with a Turkey roll and bottle of coke, to take solace from my Walkman for an hour. Tracy Chapman’s first album was one of those I listened to a lot, it brings back a lot of memories.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670

    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    Most people are looking at the parties in general - you are looking at specific issues. The Lib Dems are also adept at picking up local issues to get an edge. Using the Green/NIMBY nexus is SOP.

    The LibDems are trying to be Social Democrats in the European party sense of the word.

    Starmer is trying to move Labour to a similar position.

    It's therefore not surprising that the two parties are seen as similar.
    It's an obvious thing to do- right now, it's probably where the votes are. And there are definitely worse ways to run a country. But the Lib Dems are always going to come second in a fight for that slot.

    The other gap in the market right now looks like the "coaliation wasn't that bad, really", centre-rightist dads, if you like. Noone is really going for that vote, which is annoying for those of us in that space.

    Is that ground just too toxic for anyone to want to occupy?
    Not sure. But certainly the LibDems in my two areas are using absolutely NONE of the issues that 148 mentions in their leaflets. Every leaflet says 1. Tories are awful. 2. Only we can beat them (with misproportioned bar chart etc.). 3. So vote for us. There is virtually nothing about policy - not even NIMBY issues.

    Labour's national leaflets are a bit more issue-related but still the same structure:

    1. Tories are awful on [issue - typically NHS or cost of living]. 2. Only Labour can replace them in government. 3. So vote for us.

    I'm biased, of course, hut I don't think the pure LibDem tactical vote spiel works as well as it used to. Partly that's because Labour can do it too - with polls as they are (Tories halved, Labour up by half, LibDems slightly down on 2019), there's a case for saying that Labour is the main challenger almost anywhere, cf. mid-Beds. But also the third party nationally needs a couple of issues to champion, or they just get drowned out. The obvious one is "Rejoin EU" but if they don't want that, maybe "Raise taxes on the rich to pay for services", as that's ground that Labour eyes with trepidation but lots of floating voters are absolutely up for.

    There's also the problem that they don't even get the ability to generate media talking points at PMQs, now that they
    have fallen behind the SNP .
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,421

    Scott_xP said:

    @BBCNews

    Ian Lavender: Dad's Army star dies aged 77 https://bbc.in/49hhDTD

    Is he the last from the show?
    Don't tell him!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YMVPXmaKds

    Ian Lavender was the last remaining main cast member, yes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,453

    Buses are great, at least in London where they are run as a public service rather than as a deregulated feeding frenzy for the best routes.

    As for loudspeaker listening, ban it. While they are at it, ban food and drink on buses and tubes too for all but babes in arms. Nobody is so hungry they can’t wait until after their bus ride to eat.

    Either that, or (re)introduce proper buffet cars.
    On buses? 😄


    Absolutely. Civic dignity and all that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,040
    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    Tracy Chapman’s voice is no different to how it was when she first sung Fast Car nearly 40 years ago

    Here is the full clip

    https://x.com/EZRideryoyall/status/1754317628661768555?s=20

    EDIT: My sincerest apologies, this link should have included a trigger warning as the video clearly shows Taylor Swift singing along to every word...
    Should apologise for inflicting Chapman's dreary dirge on us.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    Most people are looking at the parties in general - you are looking at specific issues. The Lib Dems are also adept at picking up local issues to get an edge. Using the Green/NIMBY nexus is SOP.

    The LibDems are trying to be Social Democrats in the European party sense of the word.

    Starmer is trying to move Labour to a similar position.

    It's therefore not surprising that the two parties are seen as similar.
    It's an obvious thing to do- right now, it's probably where the votes are. And there are definitely worse ways to run a country. But the Lib Dems are always going to come second in a fight for that slot.

    The other gap in the market right now looks like the "coaliation wasn't that bad, really", centre-rightist dads, if you like. Noone is really going for that vote, which is annoying for those of us in that space.

    Is that ground just too toxic for anyone to want to occupy?
    Not sure. But certainly the LibDems in my two areas are using absolutely NONE of the issues that 148 mentions in their leaflets. Every leaflet says 1. Tories are awful. 2. Only we can beat them (with misproportioned bar chart etc.). 3. So vote for us. There is virtually nothing about policy - not even NIMBY issues.

    Labour's national leaflets are a bit more issue-related but still the same structure:

    1. Tories are awful on [issue - typically NHS or cost of living]. 2. Only Labour can replace them in government. 3. So vote for us.

    I'm biased, of course, hut I don't think the pure LibDem tactical vote spiel works as well as it used to. Partly that's because Labour can do it too - with polls as they are (Tories halved, Labour up by half, LibDems slightly down on 2019), there's a case for saying that Labour is the main challenger almost anywhere, cf. mid-Beds. But also the third party nationally needs a couple of issues to champion, or they just get drowned out. The obvious one is "Rejoin EU" but if they don't want that, maybe "Raise taxes on the rich to pay for services", as that's ground that Labour eyes with trepidation but lots of floating voters are absolutely up for.

    The problem the Liberal Democrats have is that they seem far more interested in the EU than err, y'know, actual liberalism.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    edited February 5
    Scott_xP said:

    @BBCNews

    Ian Lavender: Dad's Army star dies aged 77 https://bbc.in/49hhDTD

    I remember reading, probably about 30 years ago, a piece in Viz about the 'Curse of Dad's Army' - a fake tabloid-y thing about how the programme must be cursed because loads of the stars had pegged it. The joke being, of course, that the 'curse' was simply the inevitable march of time doing its thing to the elderly cast. For some reason it's always stayed with me and pops into my head far more often than it has any real right to. Occasionally, if someone prominent has pegged it at a ripe old age, I even say it out loud. And people stare at me like I'm insane.

    But, anyway, the Curse has struck again!

    EDIT - damn, isam beat me to it...
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,040

    Scott_xP said:

    @BBCNews

    Ian Lavender: Dad's Army star dies aged 77 https://bbc.in/49hhDTD

    Is he the last from the show?
    Of the regulars and semi regulars, he is.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This guy is surely right. This isn’t a new and better version of VR and AR - this is the future of all interaction with screens. You will put on sleek trendy glasses and you will have virtual keyboards you can type on, virtual computers to show your work PLUS all the apps and movies and games (and real time lip synch translation) - actual hardware from TVs to phones to laptops will be redundant. You won’t need them. Anyone who makes any of that hardware should be worried

    And they won’t be clunky oculus/fighter pilot helmets, they will be like cool Raybans

    https://x.com/casey/status/1753848769118970152?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Even it it worked perfectly, the experience depends on you being the only person weaing one. If everyone is wearing them then it destroys the illusion.
    What illusion ?
    Replacing a TV, laptop, or tablet isn't an 'illusion', but a real thing.
    It's only the case of mobile phones - where you lock the world out when using them in any case - that's slightly more problematic. And even that's just down to the technology improving.
    I spend half the year wearing sunglasses anyway, because of my eyesight.

    What mass uptake would do to social interaction is more concerning.
    "Augmented reality" needs reality as well as augmentation.

    If you're the only person wearing one, then you can have normal reality augmented by your device, but if everyone is wearing one, it changes the environment too in a much more fundamental way than smartphones do.
    1) virtual keyboards sound awful. You need some sort of physical feedback, as the ZX81 demonstrated. Perhaps some sort of gloves with little sensors which clicked the fingers would do the trick, though you'd look a berk extravagantly preparing for a spot of typing.

    2) as with all new technologies, this will definitely be used for p*rn to a surprisingly large degree. People (not all people, obvs) will be walking around in a constant state of arousal.
    If we can get close to Artificial General Intelligence I’m pretty sure we can create “satisfying virtual keyboard clicky sounds”
    Great question. Do you believe that what we see now (LLMs) are anywhere close to AGI?
    That all depends on the definition of AGI - and of course people keep moving the goalposts, or they impose impossible-to-meet conditions like "is self-aware like a human"

    Probably the best practical definition is "a computer that can do most cognitive tasks as well as the average human", and if we accept that, I would say yes the latest LLMs are really quite close to AGI, but not there yet
    Fair enough - I tend to disagree. I don't think that the LLM we have are anything close to AGI - they have no concept of understanding of the words that they churn out so convincingly.

    However its true that goalpost locating is going to be a moveable feast. Arguably most of the current LLMs would pass a Turing test in conversation.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    mwadams said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Combine motive power for both - pretty sure atom smashers use magnets to control ions etc - just need touse them for the motive power of the trains too.

    Although as atom smashing is done in vacuo, perhaps its time to revisit Atmospheric Railways? Was Brunel right?
    Hyperloop.....
    Elon Musk has his own spaceforce, controls satellite communications, can produce flamethrowers, has just produced an armoured personnel carrier disguised as a car, and is implanting electrodes into people to produce a loyal slave workforce/army. Let's pay for him to make a machine to make black holes. That'll work. :open_mouth:
    Something of an aside, but I do not believe for one second that he's actually implanted a chip in any functional way into a real person's brain. In the same way as his self-driving car demos have turned out to be largely faked, his humanoid robot demo was fake, his APC doesn't work because it destroys its own tyres, hyperloop was totally without foundation and just a spoiler for other transport investments, etc. etc.

    He is a *spectacular* vomiter of reheated crap into the public discourse.

    The things he does have exist *despite* his public pronouncements.
    Incidentally, there're some interesting issues with chip implants and it is to do with altering the stuff you are measuring. Any chip - even low-power ones - produce interference (all those little switches switching), and it's the devil's job to stop them interfering with other stuff nearby. One of the magic parts of chip layout is placing (say) RF or power management and digital on the same wafer in such a way to minimise interference.

    Having a chip in your head, even a low-power one, will be dumping unwanted stuff into your brain. Perhaps this is harmless; perhaps not. And what does 'harm' mean in this context anyway?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    £12 Bn. That's about Birmingham to Kenilworth in HS2 costs I think ?

    Edit: Probably optimistic, the Birmingham Curzon St to Interchange costs alone will probably exceed 12 Bn.
    Solution: combine them
    • Drill big long very straight tube in ground
    • Install accelerator and train lines
    • Run trains in day and accelerate particles at night
    Plus at least in this case the signals will be maintained
    Slacker

    Build the accelerator just a tad bit more powerful. Accelerate the trains to 99.99999% of C.

    This will mean awesome science in the evenings. It may render this spiral arm of the Galaxy uninhabitable, but screw the NIMBies.

    EDIT: straight line *does* mean no Synchrotron radiation. So it saves on the 'leecy bill.
    At 99.99999% of C a commuter on a 2hr train from London to York will have a relativistically reduced subjective transit time of about four seconds. Admittedly will also be converted into a very thin red smear, but can't have everything.

    https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/time-dilation
    True
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,226
    edited February 5

    Anyway, I was elected at the weekend; so I'm now a Board trustee of a heritage railway.

    Got to deliver now. Gulp.

    Go on, where? Yours, a trustee at Foxfield in Stoke on Trent...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,287
    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    Tracy Chapman’s voice is no different to how it was when she first sung Fast Car nearly 40 years ago

    Here is the full clip

    https://x.com/EZRideryoyall/status/1754317628661768555?s=20

    EDIT: My sincerest apologies, this link should have included a trigger warning as the video clearly shows Taylor Swift singing along to every word...
    The discourse around Fast Car becoming a hit again last year was seriously bizarre. People were acting as if she was some unknown "black queer" artist who had been exploited by some white guy making a cover a hit, rather than the reality that she was a major star at the time and he brought her to the attention of a new generation.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,395
    Scott_xP said:

    @BBCNews

    Ian Lavender: Dad's Army star dies aged 77 https://bbc.in/49hhDTD

    Also (briefly) a character I quite liked in Yes Minister
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    Tracy Chapman’s voice is no different to how it was when she first sung Fast Car nearly 40 years ago

    Here is the full clip

    https://x.com/EZRideryoyall/status/1754317628661768555?s=20

    EDIT: My sincerest apologies, this link should have included a trigger warning as the video clearly shows Taylor Swift singing along to every word...
    The discourse around Fast Car becoming a hit again last year was seriously bizarre. People were acting as if she was some unknown "black queer" artist who had been exploited by some white guy making a cover a hit, rather than the reality that she was a major star at the time and he brought her to the attention of a new generation.
    I always used to wonder why the just didn’t sell the car as they were struggling so bad

    Also misheard the lyric “your arm felt nice wrapped round my shoulder” as “your arms and legs wrapped round my shoulders” for years
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,945
    edited February 5

    148grss said:

    kjh said:

    I spend nearly all my time in two classic Tory areas (Godalming and rural Oxfordshire) and although I know a few people who are still planning to vote Tory, even they are doing it with a wry smile and don't dispute that it's time for a period in Opposition to reflect on their future direction. Most of my Tory friends are now either not planning to vote ("constructive abstention", one calls it) or switching, with most of those coming straight over to Labour, for the slightly dismaying reason that they don't see any difference between us and the LibDems. The LibDem literature is overwhelmingly focused on getting tactical votes, but that's fading in effectiveness, as people feel the Tories are goners anyway so they might as well just vote for the alternative Government. Both Labour and the LibDems arguably need to switch gear to a more positive and distinctive message to seal their respective deals, though it's awfully tempting to just keep the focus on how useless the Tories are.

    There's a UK Polling Report poll on the Kingswood by-election next week predicting a Labour gain, but I'm not sure it's a real poll o just a projection from national polls?

    I think your comment re the LDs is worryingly accurate @NickPalmer. They should pick up a lot of seats with the anti Tory vote and tactical voting, but with the polls as they are I suspect that in many of these seats instead of the LDs winning it will result in a lot of Tory holds and a big Labour vote, with the possibility of the occasional Labour win coming through from 3rd.

    I also agree it is sad that people can't see a distinction between the two parties, which isn't helped by the LD (necessary) tactical voting message.

    I hope I am wrong as I want the LDs to do well, but if Labour rack up huge votes in places like Guildford and Godalming it is going to be depressing. In the past it has always been easy to squeeze these. Not sure anymore.
    I'm surprised people see no difference between Labour and the LDs rather than Labour and the Tories - is that still a coalition hangover or just the general insignificance of the LDs nationally? The LDs, for example, have not backed Israel to the hilt like Labour and the Conservatives and are (at least from what I can see in the new safe seat of St Albans) going back to being more a critique of Labour from the left then the Cleggist Orange Bookers that would support Tories. They're trying to out green Labour (and the Greens) in local elections and wouldn't be surprised to see them attack Starmer for backing down on his £28 billion pledge being dropped.
    Most people are looking at the parties in general - you are looking at specific issues. The Lib Dems are also adept at picking up local issues to get an edge. Using the Green/NIMBY nexus is SOP.

    The LibDems are trying to be Social Democrats in the European party sense of the word.

    Starmer is trying to move Labour to a similar position.

    It's therefore not surprising that the two parties are seen as similar.
    It's an obvious thing to do- right now, it's probably where the votes are. And there are definitely worse ways to run a country. But the Lib Dems are always going to come second in a fight for that slot.

    The other gap in the market right now looks like the "coaliation wasn't that bad, really", centre-rightist dads, if you like. Noone is really going for that vote, which is annoying for those of us in that space.

    Is that ground just too toxic for anyone to want to occupy?
    Not sure. But certainly the LibDems in my two areas are using absolutely NONE of the issues that 148 mentions in their leaflets. Every leaflet says 1. Tories are awful. 2. Only we can beat them (with misproportioned bar chart etc.). 3. So vote for us. There is virtually nothing about policy - not even NIMBY issues.

    Labour's national leaflets are a bit more issue-related but still the same structure:

    1. Tories are awful on [issue - typically NHS or cost of living]. 2. Only Labour can replace them in government. 3. So vote for us.

    I'm biased, of course, hut I don't think the pure LibDem tactical vote spiel works as well as it used to. Partly that's because Labour can do it too - with polls as they are (Tories halved, Labour up by half, LibDems slightly down on 2019), there's a case for saying that Labour is the main challenger almost anywhere, cf. mid-Beds. But also the third party nationally needs a couple of issues to champion, or they just get drowned out. The obvious one is "Rejoin EU" but if they don't want that, maybe "Raise taxes on the rich to pay for services", as that's ground that Labour eyes with trepidation but lots of floating voters are absolutely up for.

    The problem the Liberal Democrats have is that they seem far more interested in the EU than err, y'know, actual liberalism.
    Well that is nonsense isn't it, because as @NickPalmer points out the LD leaflets in these targets don't mention it but focus on 'Tories are awful' and 'we are the challengers' and pretty much nothing else. He even mentions that they need a couple of issues to focus on to avoid getting drowned out and suggested and commented: 'Rejoin the EU but they don't want that'.

    I am on the border of two LD targets (Guildford and Mole Valley) and close to Nick's patch and delivering these leaflets and can confirm his analysis of the leaflets is correct, so where you get your statement from I have no idea, because it also hasn't been in the media from the LDs either.

    As Nick says, maybe they should. Valid suggestion that might work or might backfire, but they certainly aren't doing it currently.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,474
    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    A classic of the genre: People Who Know Everything Don't Know Anything Really Because Of Reasons. £45 Trillion Gazillion Will Solve It And Answer The Mystery Of The Universe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68172162

    Dear Mr & Ms Scientists
    Yes, I like science too. And it has to be said that if you are going to waste public money, giving it to scientists to do science well is better than giving it to bankers to do banking badly. But we are a bit strapped for the moment. Can this wait for a decade plz?
    XXX, viewcode
    It’s some particle physicists who want this, #notallscientists I’m a scientist: my equipment costs go as far as wanting a new laptop. Even some physicists think this is a wrong approach. Sabine Hossenfelder has been very critical of such proposals.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really a thing now in the UK?

    "Every single bus I get on now has people using their phone on loudspeaker. 100%.

    This wasn't true two years ago. How does a society restore unspoken, shared community standards? Are there any examples of it being achieved?"

    https://x.com/gavinantonyrice/status/1754090255580291366?s=20

    I've not encountered this

    However,

    1. I rarely take buses

    2. I am only in the UK half the year

    That is the pleasure of mixing with the great unwashed, unprincipled, thick and no manners. Refrain from public transport unless life in danger.
    The way things are going I shall refrain from Britain entirely

    East Asia, even when dramatically poorer, is in quite serious ways more civilised than Western Europe/USA now

    Crime, for a start

    For sure the UK has gone to the dogs
This discussion has been closed.