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Why it won’t be ‘The Sun wot won it’ in 2024 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,011
edited February 4 in General
imageWhy it won’t be ‘The Sun wot won it’ in 2024 – politicalbetting.com

The Sun famously claimed it had won the election for John Major’s Tories in 1992.  Rupert Murdoch later denied that claim, telling the Leveson Inquiry that the ‘Won It’ headline had been “tasteless and wrong”, adding: “we don’t have that sort of power” (although the Mandy Rice-Davies principle applies here of course).

Read the full story here

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    First like lawyer Starmer.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,335
    edited January 21
    The era of the dead trees press is over.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Yes, the Sun circulation is massively down from 1992. However, as you say Murdoch will want to be on the winning side so will have at least one of his papers back Starmer, whether the Times or Sun
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    My view is that the Times/Sunday Times will back Labour and the Sun won't.

    The FT will also back Labour, I do think.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,295
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, the Sun circulation is massively down from 1992. However, as you say Murdoch will want to be on the winning side so will have at least one of his papers back Starmer, whether the Times or Sun

    Not so sure. The British Right were literally driven mad by Brexit and they view Starmer as the man primarily responsible for its many failings. To suddenly support him would be tantamount to an act of masochism, a denial of being and self worth. They will cling to Rishi, or perhaps more likely to Farage, to the sunken depths.
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    The influence of newspapers has been replaced by social media echo chambers so the winner will be whoever can get peoples attention with short videos etc; probably there will be a lot of deepfakes and fake/ manipulated material (I suspect); I would guess that the conservatives will be more ruthless than the labour party, in this respect.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    The era of the dead trees press is over.

    It is, of course, but it doesn’t matter. It is all about online presence now

    Speaking from experience as a flint knapper that works with journos I can say that the Daily Mail has massive sway, because it is - as a website - so huge across the English speaking world. This may change - they are soon to introduce a form of paywall, so we shall see - but right now it is still as powerful as ever, but the nature of the power has altered

    The Telegraph is doing good. The Times less so. The Sun is surprisingly successful. The Guardian is also highly successful online but it is hampered by two things - it is entirely free so gets no online subs, and it is in direct competition - in ethos, outlook, even demeanour - with the mighty New York Times, which has the money to take every decent writer from the Guardian and triple their salary. And it has done that, in sport (via the Athletic)

    The BBC is the biggest and best UK media brand of all, but it is uniquely funded and crippled, as we all know
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163

    The era of the dead trees press is over.

    The Sun has set?
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,568
    So, from previous thread… Wine: not usually vegetarian.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    The era of the dead trees press is over.

    It is, of course, but it doesn’t matter. It is all about online presence now

    Speaking from experience as a flint knapper that works with journos I can say that the Daily Mail has massive sway, because it is - as a website - so huge across the English speaking world. This may change - they are soon to introduce a form of paywall, so we shall see - but right now it is still as powerful as ever, but the nature of the power has altered

    The Telegraph is doing good. The Times less so. The Sun is surprisingly successful. The Guardian is also highly successful online but it is hampered by two things - it is entirely free so gets no online subs, and it is in direct competition - in ethos, outlook, even demeanour - with the mighty New York Times, which has the money to take every decent writer from the Guardian and triple their salary. And it has done that, in sport (via the Athletic)

    The BBC is the biggest and best UK media brand of all, but it is uniquely funded and crippled, as we all know
    I don't use The Mail website for the same reason I don't use The Mirror/Express websites, they are buggy and fully of annoying pop ups with videos.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,527
    I’m absolutely flabbergasted at the readership stats in the header. I would never have thought the Sun online would have anything like that circulation or be above the Mail in particular. I’m also shocked, and a little sceptical, at the Independent being above the Guardian in the list.

    If you’d asked me which titles were the most viewed online I would have the BBC at the top but much further ahead, then the Mail online, then a long way down the Guardian, then the others bringing up the rear.
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    So, from previous thread… Wine: not usually vegetarian.

    Usually, milk, egg whites or fish bladder. So the first 2 are vegetarian, but not the last, I guess.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, the Sun circulation is massively down from 1992. However, as you say Murdoch will want to be on the winning side so will have at least one of his papers back Starmer, whether the Times or Sun

    Not so sure. The British Right were literally driven mad by Brexit and they view Starmer as the man primarily responsible for its many failings. To suddenly support him would be tantamount to an act of masochism, a denial of being and self worth. They will cling to Rishi, or perhaps more likely to Farage, to the sunken depths.
    The Times backed Remain, only the Sun backed Leave
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163
    edited January 21

    So, from previous thread… Wine: not usually vegetarian.

    Is it carnivorous, or pescatarian?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    TimS said:

    I’m absolutely flabbergasted at the readership stats in the header. I would never have thought the Sun online would have anything like that circulation or be above the Mail in particular. I’m also shocked, and a little sceptical, at the Independent being above the Guardian in the list.

    If you’d asked me which titles were the most viewed online I would have the BBC at the top but much further ahead, then the Mail online, then a long way down the Guardian, then the others bringing up the rear.

    The Indy is pretty good online, tho i agree that looks a tad inflated

    I am not at all surprised by the Sun numbers, I recently did an Egypt group tour with the one of the main guys that basically runs the Sun online presence. He talked me through it, what they’ve done. They’ve weaponised YouTube, and other social media, really cleverly, they get massive clicks from the weirdest parts of the world

    The British journalist is a resourceful beast. They are not easy to wipe out
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,673
    TimS said:

    I’m absolutely flabbergasted at the readership stats in the header. I would never have thought the Sun online would have anything like that circulation or be above the Mail in particular. I’m also shocked, and a little sceptical, at the Independent being above the Guardian in the list.

    If you’d asked me which titles were the most viewed online I would have the BBC at the top but much further ahead, then the Mail online, then a long way down the Guardian, then the others bringing up the rear.

    By number of visits you would be right, although Guardian close to Mail aiui. Audience reach a rubbish metric designed to sell advertising imo.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    ydoethur said:

    So, from previous thread… Wine: not usually vegetarian.

    Is it carnivorous, or pescatarian?
    Depends if it has isinglass or cow's blood to clear it??
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    Another takeaway here is how shit the Times is doing

    It’s utter rubbish. This is one of the biggest brands in world journalism, THE TIMES of LONDON. Almost as big as the BBC. And there it is down below Manc Evening News

    This would be excusable if their journalism was sensational and their iPad version a slick piece of genius, but hidden behind an impermeable paywall. This is not the case. The paywall exists but the journalism is mediocre and the design of the app and website look like they were last revamped in 2009

    Shockingly bad. One can only presume someone at Murdoch Towers simply doesn’t care. Then why don’t they sell it?
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,292
    edited January 21
    FPT @isam - Pub Cricket - Ideal for keeping young people entertained during car journeys that do not involve motorways.....

    You score runs for each arm or leg contained in the pub name - so two runs for The Speckled Hen, four for the White Lion, eight for The Spider's Web, and so on. (No I've never seen a pub called The Centipede, but yes it would be a hundred runs.) Pub names without an arm or a leg are a wicket - so The Plough, The Castle etc are wickets.

    You can vary this a bit if you like, so that The Horse and Cart is four runs and a wicket but that's not how we used to do it.

    You should find you wind up with some fairly plausible scores - seventy or so runs will probably win the match.

    As well as curing boredom, it encourages observation. Attention to the pub signs is vital in some cases.


    There will of course be the occasional argument, but mostly it is good free fun.

    And if you ever go past The Deuragon (pub in Hackney, probably closed now) I can give you the answer as to whether it is runs or a wicket.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,908
    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    Matthew Parris writes about it in The Spectator this week. No one involved admits they did anything wrong, but they won’t say they’d do the same again.

    I blame lockdown for my moving from outer London to the countryside. During the pandemic I was indoors with the family all the time, it was quite nice, we had a newborn baby and it felt like it didn’t matter where we lived. Now everything is open, I miss my local area and easy access to friends and family. I was considering moving even further out, to smaller villages. I think it sent me a bit crackers
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,908

    FPT @isam - Pub Cricket - Ideal for keeping young people entertained during car journeys that do not involve motorways.....

    You score runs for each arm or leg contained in the pub name - so two runs for The Speckled Hen, four for the White Lion, eight for The Spider's Web, and so on. (No I've never seen a pub called The Centipede, but yes it would be a hundred runs.) Pubs names without an arm or a leg are a wicket - so The Plough, The Castle etc are wickets.

    You can vary this a bit if you like, so that The Horse and Cart is four runs and a wicket but that's not how we used to do it.

    You should find you wind up with some fairly plausible scores - seventy or so runs will probably win the match.

    As well as curing boredom, it encourages observation. Attention to the pub signs is vital in some cases.


    There will of course be the occasional argument, but mostly it is good free fun.

    And if you ever go past The Deuragon (pub in Hackney, probably closed now) I can give you the answer as to whether it is runs or a wicket.

    Thanks Peter, I’ll give it a go
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    Matthew Parris writes about it in The Spectator this week. No one involved admits they did anything wrong, but they won’t say they’d do the same again.

    I blame lockdown for my moving from outer London to the countryside. During the pandemic I was indoors with the family all the time, it was quite nice, we had a newborn baby and it felt like it didn’t matter where we lived. Now everything is open, I miss my local area and easy access to friends and family. I was considering moving even further out, to smaller villages. I think it sent me a bit crackers
    I read that Parris column

    I thought it was one of the best things he has written in many years, indeed it is one of the best commentaries on our Covid reaction - by anyone

    In his sometimes-annoyingly calm, lucid way, he forensically analysed how and why we all went mad, and what a disaster it was, ultimately. We have sacrificed the sanity and prosperity of many to save the lives of relatively few
  • Options
    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    You are so right Leon. We have two children. One hated it but does not seem to have suffered much long term damage, and has learned about Zoom meetings and online Maths exercises which otherwise he would not have. But our other child was as far as we knew neurotypical before, and spoke and acted normally; now is autustic, non-verbal and in a special school. I don't think all this is due to the lockdown but certainly at least the condition was exacerbated and the diagnosis was delayed by this. It has done far more damage than anyone realises. And some of it so unnecessary and spiteful - e.g the closure of outdoor playgrounds which cost the taxpayer at least £50 billion.
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    PhilPhil Posts: 1,930
    This is a graph showing the number of US journalists over time, but I imagine the same market forces must be hitting UK newspapers too:



    Newspaper journalism is dying out.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    You are so right Leon. We have two children. One hated it but does not seem to have suffered much long term damage, and has learned about Zoom meetings and online Maths exercises which otherwise he would not have. But our other child was as far as we knew neurotypical before, and spoke and acted normally; now is autustic, non-verbal and in a special school. I don't think all this is due to the lockdown but certainly at least the condition was exacerbated and the diagnosis was delayed by this. It has done far more damage than anyone realises. And some of it so unnecessary and spiteful - e.g the closure of outdoor playgrounds which cost the taxpayer at least £50 billion.
    We made a series of momentous and terrible errors, which will have incalculable consequences. We made the plague WORSE

    Throughout it all, I had my half mad brother in Peru telling me: what the fuck are you guys doing, this is insane, even if this bug kills 2% of people and crashes health systems, the result of long lockdowns will be much much worse, more expensive and more damaging by orders of magnitude, to all humanity

    I kinda dismissed him. After all, he is half schizophrenic (but very very clever). Now I see he was surely right. It is tragic
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    Why did we close outdoor playgrounds???????
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    My view is that the Times/Sunday Times will back Labour and the Sun won't.

    The FT will also back Labour, I do think.

    The FT is pink, which is a bit of a giveaway.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,281
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    You are so right Leon. We have two children. One hated it but does not seem to have suffered much long term damage, and has learned about Zoom meetings and online Maths exercises which otherwise he would not have. But our other child was as far as we knew neurotypical before, and spoke and acted normally; now is autustic, non-verbal and in a special school. I don't think all this is due to the lockdown but certainly at least the condition was exacerbated and the diagnosis was delayed by this. It has done far more damage than anyone realises. And some of it so unnecessary and spiteful - e.g the closure of outdoor playgrounds which cost the taxpayer at least £50 billion.
    We made a series of momentous and terrible errors, which will have incalculable consequences. We made the plague WORSE

    Throughout it all, I had my half mad brother in Peru telling me: what the fuck are you guys doing, this is insane, even if this bug kills 2% of people and crashes health systems, the result of long lockdowns will be much much worse, more expensive and more damaging by orders of magnitude, to all humanity

    I kinda dismissed him. After all, he is half schizophrenic (but very very clever). Now I see he was surely right. It is tragic
    Peru managed to achieve the worst response possible to COVID.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    You are so right Leon. We have two children. One hated it but does not seem to have suffered much long term damage, and has learned about Zoom meetings and online Maths exercises which otherwise he would not have. But our other child was as far as we knew neurotypical before, and spoke and acted normally; now is autustic, non-verbal and in a special school. I don't think all this is due to the lockdown but certainly at least the condition was exacerbated and the diagnosis was delayed by this. It has done far more damage than anyone realises. And some of it so unnecessary and spiteful - e.g the closure of outdoor playgrounds which cost the taxpayer at least £50 billion.
    We made a series of momentous and terrible errors, which will have incalculable consequences. We made the plague WORSE

    Throughout it all, I had my half mad brother in Peru telling me: what the fuck are you guys doing, this is insane, even if this bug kills 2% of people and crashes health systems, the result of long lockdowns will be much much worse, more expensive and more damaging by orders of magnitude, to all humanity

    I kinda dismissed him. After all, he is half schizophrenic (but very very clever). Now I see he was surely right. It is tragic
    Peru managed to achieve the worst response possible to COVID.
    Did I, at any point, commend the Peruvian response?

    No. So what is your point?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    I think most pb-era are introverts and many are high-functionally neurodivergent, and older, with house and gardens and family, so the consensus on here is probably Lockdowns Yay

    That is not the case for most of Homo Sapiens

    Another issue I have heard, for kids, is what all the masking did. It has retarded language acquisition and interpreting of facial expression. Kids haven’t learned to speak proper like they normally do

    These things are going to be massive, in a bad way
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,049
    The Parris column is very good. Has Blair ever been asked the question about Iraq in those terms? Parris is surely right that he's learned the lesson that it was a mistake, even if only subconsciously.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-one-question-the-covid-inquiry-must-ask/
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    The Parris column is very good. Has Blair ever been asked the question about Iraq in those terms? Parris is surely right that he's learned the lesson that it was a mistake, even if only subconsciously.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-one-question-the-covid-inquiry-must-ask/

    The problem with Iraq at this point is that the people that opposed it seem to oppose any war or conflict so they're right by accident.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,055
    Leon said:

    Why did we close outdoor playgrounds???????

    There's a proportion of the population whose response to anything and everything is to 'ban it'.

    There's a proportion of those in government (not just politicians) who enjoy having power over others.

    There's a proportion of the population who can be scared into accepting what the other two groups want.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,427
    I can't see whether these are UK or International stats, and the link seems borked.

    I think there are some fairly major distortions of the numbers - for example the Independent does a lot of Google-spam and has a big section of blogs from aiui random members of the public.

    Plus which ones have put in paywalls recently?
  • Options
    mickydroymickydroy Posts: 234
    The sun will not back Starmer, which is a good as reason as any to vote Labour
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,991
    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,944
    Interesting that the number of journalists is declining. Grandson Two is in his last year at university and has to decide what to do to Earn a Living. I think journalism is one of his options; might try and get him to think about something else.
    Although, to be fair, he was talking about TV or radio work.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,908
    edited January 21

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,055
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    I think most pb-era are introverts and many are high-functionally neurodivergent, and older, with house and gardens and family, so the consensus on here is probably Lockdowns Yay

    That is not the case for most of Homo Sapiens

    Another issue I have heard, for kids, is what all the masking did. It has retarded language acquisition and interpreting of facial expression. Kids haven’t learned to speak proper like they normally do

    These things are going to be massive, in a bad way
    Human sacrifices to NHS idolatory.
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I supported lockdown at the time and was one of the biggest advocates of it along with that CorrectHorseBattery fellow (whatever happened to it?). But in hindsight I think whilst I can buy the arguments for the first lockdown, with what the government did and the impact it had, I really am very sceptical it was the right thing to do.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,427
    edited January 21
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,270

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, the Sun circulation is massively down from 1992. However, as you say Murdoch will want to be on the winning side so will have at least one of his papers back Starmer, whether the Times or Sun

    Not so sure. The British Right were literally driven mad by Brexit and they view Starmer as the man primarily responsible for its many failings. To suddenly support him would be tantamount to an act of masochism, a denial of being and self worth. They will cling to Rishi, or perhaps more likely to Farage, to the sunken depths.
    Maybe. My guess is The Sun will largely ignore the election in favour of showbiz or crime stories.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    You are so right Leon. We have two children. One hated it but does not seem to have suffered much long term damage, and has learned about Zoom meetings and online Maths exercises which otherwise he would not have. But our other child was as far as we knew neurotypical before, and spoke and acted normally; now is autustic, non-verbal and in a special school. I don't think all this is due to the lockdown but certainly at least the condition was exacerbated and the diagnosis was delayed by this. It has done far more damage than anyone realises. And some of it so unnecessary and spiteful - e.g the closure of outdoor playgrounds which cost the taxpayer at least £50 billion.
    The closure of outdoor playgrounds cost the taxpayer at least £50 billion???
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,236
    It's the SUNIL wot won it!
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    HYUFD said:

    Yes, the Sun circulation is massively down from 1992. However, as you say Murdoch will want to be on the winning side so will have at least one of his papers back Starmer, whether the Times or Sun

    Not so sure. The British Right were literally driven mad by Brexit and they view Starmer as the man primarily responsible for its many failings. To suddenly support him would be tantamount to an act of masochism, a denial of being and self worth. They will cling to Rishi, or perhaps more likely to Farage, to the sunken depths.
    Maybe. My guess is The Sun will largely ignore the election in favour of showbiz or crime stories.
    That's all the Sun and Mail online do isn't it? I highly doubt people go to them for politics, it's all pop culture crap
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,991
    edited January 21
    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Interesting that the number of journalists is declining. Grandson Two is in his last year at university and has to decide what to do to Earn a Living. I think journalism is one of his options; might try and get him to think about something else.
    Although, to be fair, he was talking about TV or radio work.

    Do something you love.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,270
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,938
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    Matthew Parris writes about it in The Spectator this week. No one involved admits they did anything wrong, but they won’t say they’d do the same again.

    I blame lockdown for my moving from outer London to the countryside. During the pandemic I was indoors with the family all the time, it was quite nice, we had a newborn baby and it felt like it didn’t matter where we lived. Now everything is open, I miss my local area and easy access to friends and family. I was considering moving even further out, to smaller villages. I think it sent me a bit crackers
    I hated every moment of it. I was locked up in a one bedroom flat, completely isolated from my support network, and chronically overworked by my employer, with fear-of-getting-fired never far from my mind.

    Eventually I had a nervous breakdown, from which I'm still recovering, and as a result of which I still deal with mental health, depression and anger issues every day, and find full-time work hard, if not impossible. I went from a healthy BMI to seriously overweight, occasional social drinker to problem drinker (which I've only just been mentally well-balanced enough to start working on in the last few months or so).

    So yeah. F**k lockdowns, and everyone who still supports them. I appreciate for everyone YMMV on this point, and can already hear some of you raising spectres of hundreds of thousands dead, piling up in NHS morgues, etc. But I can only speak from my own experience, and that has been permanent, debilitating mental illness, directly brought on by isolation and overwork.

    I was healthy before lockdowns. I am unhealthy now - mind and body. I have never, to the best of my knowledge, caught covid, nor would I have been in any kind of risk category even if I had.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,991
    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    There should definitely be a gallantry medal for skedaddling to Welsh seaside resorts in the face of the enemy.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,908

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,944

    Interesting that the number of journalists is declining. Grandson Two is in his last year at university and has to decide what to do to Earn a Living. I think journalism is one of his options; might try and get him to think about something else.
    Although, to be fair, he was talking about TV or radio work.

    Do something you love.
    I agree, but there doesn’t seem to be anything specific in my grandson’s mind.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    There should definitely be a gallantry medal for skedaddling to Welsh seaside resorts in the face of the enemy.
    I can’t help being an early adopter. Some people are just naturally on the cutting edge
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,930
    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    edited January 21
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/21/royal-navy-warships-crashed-into-each-other-due-to-faulty-rewiring-say-sources

    '“HMS Chiddingfold’s motor was wired incorrectly and full ahead gave full astern,” a navy insider said. The vessel had been recently inspected by officers at the maritime capability, trials and assessment team, they added.'

    PS: Not clear whether it was the boat's own ERAs, or some dockyard mateys, who did the rewire. So Mr Shapps might be right in that it wasn't our jolly jack tars' incompetence.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
    That’s America, where lockdowns were much less punitive

    It looks a lot worse in the UK - from what I can see

    I mean, I hope you’re right, please God. But I worry you are not
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,932
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    There should definitely be a gallantry medal for skedaddling to Welsh seaside resorts in the face of the enemy.
    Indeed. Would you award one for each person, or just one for the resort in question?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Even Amanda Spielman had noticed it and was complaining (probably to get good headlines in the Mail, but that doesn't mean she wasn't right, for once).
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,281

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I supported lockdown at the time and was one of the biggest advocates of it along with that CorrectHorseBattery fellow (whatever happened to it?). But in hindsight I think whilst I can buy the arguments for the first lockdown, with what the government did and the impact it had, I really am very sceptical it was the right thing to do.
    As usual I seem to be in the non-ideological group - the early lockdowns made sense, but after the vaccines arrived, the C/B ratio changed dramatically.

    There seem to be plenty of ideologues on both sides of lockdowns.

    I had family at home with me, enough space to live and work - and a job to match. *Before* the first lockdown, they said - “You can send your whole desk, computer, monitors, chair etc home. Free delivery.”

    For many, many people there was no space, loneliness and no work. Let alone free delivery of Aeron office chairs.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,930
    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.
    It is worth remembering, though, that for the first lockdown, we had no idea how severe things were going to be.

    The stories coming out of New York and Milan were incredibly scary, with mortuaries overloaded and people dying in the corridors of hospitals due to lack of medical care. At that time, we didn't know if the mortality rate was 0.5%, 5% or 25%.

    Where there were big mistakes, in my view, were (a) in the severity of the lockdown. It's very clear that - for example - California achieved very similar levels of R reduction as the UK, but with massively less severe restrictions. And (b) in the length of time the restrictions were in place for.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,991
    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was amateur epidemiologist Parrish stating that 92% were at no real risk in 2020?
    How many Brits were poisoned by gas in WWII?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,930
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    What would be the reason for it?

    I have a four year old and was worried he would be a social misfit having barely seen anyone bar myself and my partner for a large part of his early life, but he seems to be a happy & popular like his mum & an argumentative, smart arse like me, so no damage done. If anything, lockdown gave us more time to teach him stuff.

    If lots of early socialization was essential for development, then people who grew up on farms would have a whole array of mental issues that... errr... they don't have.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Just because it is an issue before does not mean is can’t be a much bigger issue now

    That’s like saying “Oh we had problems with Germany right through the 1930s, what was special about the 40s?” in the 1950s

    You may be right, But I have vivid personal first hand accounts, from people teaching Covid kids (and Covid teens) that there are massive new issues
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was amateur epidemiologist Parrish stating that 92% were at no real risk in 2020?
    How many Brits were poisoned by gas in WWII?
    There is a school of thought that universal gas masks were the single greatest strategic success of WWII.

    They made Hitler think gas attacks would be pointless, so he never tried them.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,281
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.
    It is worth remembering, though, that for the first lockdown, we had no idea how severe things were going to be.

    The stories coming out of New York and Milan were incredibly scary, with mortuaries overloaded and people dying in the corridors of hospitals due to lack of medical care. At that time, we didn't know if the mortality rate was 0.5%, 5% or 25%.

    Where there were big mistakes, in my view, were (a) in the severity of the lockdown. It's very clear that - for example - California achieved very similar levels of R reduction as the UK, but with massively less severe restrictions. And (b) in the length of time the restrictions were in place for.
    PB tends to people who are better off. Not so many living in flat shares where every room has at least one person in it. Friends who live like that described a weird mix of claustrophobia and loneliness - spending all their time trapped in their rooms, scuttling to kitchen or bathroom.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,930

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I supported lockdown at the time and was one of the biggest advocates of it along with that CorrectHorseBattery fellow (whatever happened to it?). But in hindsight I think whilst I can buy the arguments for the first lockdown, with what the government did and the impact it had, I really am very sceptical it was the right thing to do.
    As usual I seem to be in the non-ideological group - the early lockdowns made sense, but after the vaccines arrived, the C/B ratio changed dramatically.

    There seem to be plenty of ideologues on both sides of lockdowns.

    I had family at home with me, enough space to live and work - and a job to match. *Before* the first lockdown, they said - “You can send your whole desk, computer, monitors, chair etc home. Free delivery.”

    For many, many people there was no space, loneliness and no work. Let alone free delivery of Aeron office chairs.

    The UK also veered between Eat Out To Help Out and Don't Even Sit Next To Someone On A Park Bench.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,528
    edited January 21

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Quite so. It is somewhat counter-intuitive that lockdown inhibited toilet training, given that 2-4 year olds were locked down with the people primarily responsible for such training, namely their parent(s).

    My more radical explanation for the long-term decline of kids arriving at school not toilet trained, or with underdeveloped verbal skills, is that it correlates with many parents spending far too much time playing with their mobile phones or other devices rather than communicating with and training their sprogs. No, I can't prove it. But it drives me a bit mad to see phone addicts ignoring their little kids. Including in my own family.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,932
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Just because it is an issue before does not mean is can’t be a much bigger issue now

    That’s like saying “Oh we had problems with Germany right through the 1930s, what was special about the 40s?” in the 1950s

    You may be right, But I have vivid personal first hand accounts, from people teaching Covid kids (and Covid teens) that there are massive new issues
    That article from 2016 says that it was a problem then, and that teachers were reporting it was getting worse. It also states two possible anecdotal reasons.

    It *may* have got worse during Covid, but you provide zero evidence, and it disproves what you wrote: "... and it has never been seen before."

    Perhaps, just perhaps, there are deeper societal reasons behind the problem than Covid?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,281
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was amateur epidemiologist Parrish stating that 92% were at no real risk in 2020?
    How many Brits were poisoned by gas in WWII?
    There is a school of thought that universal gas masks were the single greatest strategic success of WWII.

    They made Hitler think gas attacks would be pointless, so he never tried them.
    Hitler assumed (correctly) that there would be retaliation in kind. The German army was especially vulnerable - massively reliant on horses for transport, right through the war.

    The BEF in WWII was the first completely mechanised army - no animals.
  • Options
    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,441
    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.
    Say no lockdowns and the UK rode a single large wave.* When the hospital system collapsed and aged aunts were left to die in nightingale sports halls & conference centres what trauma would that leave the 92%?

    Look at Cummings's whiteboard pic, the choice was lockdowns or fucking the NHS with an unmanageable amount of dying oldies.

    *There was more than one wave during the Spanish flu so...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Just because it is an issue before does not mean is can’t be a much bigger issue now

    That’s like saying “Oh we had problems with Germany right through the 1930s, what was special about the 40s?” in the 1950s

    You may be right, But I have vivid personal first hand accounts, from people teaching Covid kids (and Covid teens) that there are massive new issues
    There are not 'massive new issues.' There is a much greater understanding, especially among parents, of the very wide extent of the issues we face in education and a willingness to actually confront them.

    There is also much less patience with those in authority who can't grasp that.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,528
    rcs1000 said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I supported lockdown at the time and was one of the biggest advocates of it along with that CorrectHorseBattery fellow (whatever happened to it?). But in hindsight I think whilst I can buy the arguments for the first lockdown, with what the government did and the impact it had, I really am very sceptical it was the right thing to do.
    As usual I seem to be in the non-ideological group - the early lockdowns made sense, but after the vaccines arrived, the C/B ratio changed dramatically.

    There seem to be plenty of ideologues on both sides of lockdowns.

    I had family at home with me, enough space to live and work - and a job to match. *Before* the first lockdown, they said - “You can send your whole desk, computer, monitors, chair etc home. Free delivery.”

    For many, many people there was no space, loneliness and no work. Let alone free delivery of Aeron office chairs.

    The UK also veered between Eat Out To Help Out and Don't Even Sit Next To Someone On A Park Bench.
    Where I live you couldn't even sit down on a bench alone. The benches were taped off with crime-scene like tape and notices declaring "this bench is closed".
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,930
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
    That’s America, where lockdowns were much less punitive

    It looks a lot worse in the UK - from what I can see

    I mean, I hope you’re right, please God. But I worry you are not
    This is a comparison between a state which did not have lockdowns at all (after the initial brief one in April/May 2020) and states which had severe lockdowns. My kids - in California - did not return to in person schooling for over a year, and even then it was only half time until the start of the 21/22 academic year.

    For what it's worth, these results shouldn't be a surprise. German schools don't even start teaching reading until kids are 7, and yet their kids end up at the same place as British ones by the time you get to the teens,
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,991
    edited January 21
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was amateur epidemiologist Parrish stating that 92% were at no real risk in 2020?
    How many Brits were poisoned by gas in WWII?
    There is a school of thought that universal gas masks were the single greatest strategic success of WWII.

    They made Hitler think gas attacks would be pointless, so he never tried them.
    Hmm, not heard that one. It’s certainly strange that AH didn’t use the one Vergeltungswaffen that he had in large, cheap to manufacture quantities. That it was because he’d been gassed in WWI (one theory) seems uncharacteristic.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,236

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Bat shit!
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    edited January 21

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was amateur epidemiologist Parrish stating that 92% were at no real risk in 2020?
    How many Brits were poisoned by gas in WWII?
    There is a school of thought that universal gas masks were the single greatest strategic success of WWII.

    They made Hitler think gas attacks would be pointless, so he never tried them.
    Hitler assumed (correctly) that there would be retaliation in kind. The German army was especially vulnerable - massively reliant on horses for transport, right through the war.

    The BEF in WWII was the first completely mechanised army - no animals.
    And a dab of yellowish paint on the vehicle bonnet, or a little board on COE types (see photo below), where the driver could see if it went funny colours in the event of mustard gas etc.

    https://www.mediastorehouse.co.uk/mary-evans-prints-online/ww2-vintage-morris-commercial-army-truck-14193802.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyland_Hippo_Mk_II#/media/File:Leyland_Hippo_Mk_II,_1944.jpg

    Mind, it also worked with horses, only they died. No need for special paint.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,236

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I don’t think that’s a great point. Surely there were a lot of people who hated lockdown but still think it was right?

    Personally I think I am in the opposite category; I didn’t hate it but thought it was wrong
    I don’t know anyone who loved lockdown but people who personally hated lockdown and think it was wrong are over represented here. I don’t think they’re the best judges of its value.

    The main point is it’s done. No doubt in 1947 there was a solipsistic bunch of folk moaning about the huge cost of gas masks and the vile restrictions of the black out but most were getting on with the present.
    I’ve never heard of people making that point about blackouts and gas masks, but even if thats true, the difference is there was a real threat of death to those who had to endure those whereas 92% of the country (according to Parris) were always going to be alright anyway with covid.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was amateur epidemiologist Parrish stating that 92% were at no real risk in 2020?
    How many Brits were poisoned by gas in WWII?
    Plenty of non-Brits were poisoned by gas in WW2.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    In my experience it is real and profound. Our child who was at 2 pretty nearly clean and dry before the covid restrictions had a severe developmental regression including this area. It had eventually resolved by the age of 5. I don't really understand it but it's a real thing. If I had the time again I would have broken the rules to give him the socialisation he needed but we obeyed the rules and more so due to the scaremongering.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Leon talking shit again, I am surprised.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,425
    ydoethur said:

    The era of the dead trees press is over.

    The Sun has set?
    It will be the Mail that failed.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
    That’s America, where lockdowns were much less punitive

    It looks a lot worse in the UK - from what I can see

    I mean, I hope you’re right, please God. But I worry you are not
    This is a comparison between a state which did not have lockdowns at all (after the initial brief one in April/May 2020) and states which had severe lockdowns. My kids - in California - did not return to in person schooling for over a year, and even then it was only half time until the start of the 21/22 academic year.

    For what it's worth, these results shouldn't be a surprise. German schools don't even start teaching reading until kids are 7, and yet their kids end up at the same place as British ones by the time you get to the teens,
    That's a more severe lockdown than Britain, surely? We were back to in-person teaching from July 2020 (on and off).

    Agree with your second point all the way.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,049
    Poor socialisation and anti-social behaviour in all its forms are the biggest challenge to any kind of techno-utopianism. What can AI do about someone who pepper-sprays their teacher because their phone was confiscated?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12060643/Tennessee-high-school-student-pepper-sprays-teacher-confiscated-phone.html
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    What would be the reason for it?

    I have a four year old and was worried he would be a social misfit having barely seen anyone bar myself and my partner for a large part of his early life, but he seems to be a happy & popular like his mum & an argumentative, smart arse like me, so no damage done. If anything, lockdown gave us more time to teach him stuff.

    I confess I don’t know the mechanism - why Covid isolation would cause retarded toilet training, but I have heard many reports

    “Covid had a devastating impact on our children's social skills – we will see the effects for years
    Children are still playing catch-up when it comes to developing their social skills and emotional wellbeing, say experts”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/christmas/2023/11/21/attachment-issues-anxiety-covid-generation-still-suffering

    ‘They said our children would bounce back from lockdown’
    As a study finds the pandemic shutdown damaged the emotional development of children, Maria Lally talks to parents, a teacher and a therapist still seeing its effects


    Times (£££)

    You can find more cheerful opinions - but there is plenty of gloom to back up my pessimism
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Angela Rayner will be one of the best parts of a Labour Government in terms of connecting with the normal people up and down this country.

    They'd be wise to get her out during the election on the campaign trail as much as possible.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
    That’s America, where lockdowns were much less punitive

    It looks a lot worse in the UK - from what I can see

    I mean, I hope you’re right, please God. But I worry you are not
    This is a comparison between a state which did not have lockdowns at all (after the initial brief one in April/May 2020) and states which had severe lockdowns. My kids - in California - did not return to in person schooling for over a year, and even then it was only half time until the start of the 21/22 academic year.

    For what it's worth, these results shouldn't be a surprise. German schools don't even start teaching reading until kids are 7, and yet their kids end up at the same place as British ones by the time you get to the teens,
    Did California close its playgrounds and beaches and staple everyone in their homes?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,930
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
    That’s America, where lockdowns were much less punitive

    It looks a lot worse in the UK - from what I can see

    I mean, I hope you’re right, please God. But I worry you are not
    This is a comparison between a state which did not have lockdowns at all (after the initial brief one in April/May 2020) and states which had severe lockdowns. My kids - in California - did not return to in person schooling for over a year, and even then it was only half time until the start of the 21/22 academic year.

    For what it's worth, these results shouldn't be a surprise. German schools don't even start teaching reading until kids are 7, and yet their kids end up at the same place as British ones by the time you get to the teens,
    That's a more severe lockdown than Britain, surely? We were back to in-person teaching from July 2020 (on and off).

    Agree with your second point all the way.
    It was a much more severe lockdown as far as in person education went. But there were essentially no restrictions on meeting other people outside or in private residences.
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,736
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/21/royal-navy-warships-crashed-into-each-other-due-to-faulty-rewiring-say-sources

    '“HMS Chiddingfold’s motor was wired incorrectly and full ahead gave full astern,” a navy insider said. The vessel had been recently inspected by officers at the maritime capability, trials and assessment team, they added.'

    PS: Not clear whether it was the boat's own ERAs, or some dockyard mateys, who did the rewire. So Mr Shapps might be right in that it wasn't our jolly jack tars' incompetence.

    Reminds me of a long-running documentary series on the Light Programme called The Navy Lark. Ahead, astern, does it matter? Have you seen the sea? It's enormous.
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    booksellerbookseller Posts: 421

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    "This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before "

    Ahem. From 2016:

    "Significantly more children are starting school without being toilet trained, according to a joint survey by teachers and a continence education charity.

    Of the 700 survey respondents, 70% said more children aged three to seven – the foundation stage and key stage 1 – were now starting school without being toilet trained than five years ago."

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/rise-in-children-starting-school-not-toilet-trained-28-09-2016/

    Or 2019:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6932241/Potty-training-expert-insists-not-acceptable-send-five-year-olds-school-nappies.html
    Just because it is an issue before does not mean is can’t be a much bigger issue now

    That’s like saying “Oh we had problems with Germany right through the 1930s, what was special about the 40s?” in the 1950s

    You may be right, But I have vivid personal first hand accounts, from people teaching Covid kids (and Covid teens) that there are massive new issues
    That article from 2016 says that it was a problem then, and that teachers were reporting it was getting worse. It also states two possible anecdotal reasons.

    It *may* have got worse during Covid, but you provide zero evidence, and it disproves what you wrote: "... and it has never been seen before."

    Perhaps, just perhaps, there are deeper societal reasons behind the problem than Covid?
    The leadership team at the school where I was a governor felt that the arrival of social media and smart phones had done the most damage to early years socialisation and skills like toilet training were just one part of the impact (just a really disruptive one in terms of teaching time). Children miss the many thousands of social cues and non-verbal interactions that come when parents look and react to children directly instead of their phones. The examples I remember in terms of behaviour was extremely disruptive behaviour which prevented them being left with other children. From memory, the first real wave of social media-impacted kids was in the 2015 cohort but it might have a been a year later (which would coincide with that Nursing Times article).
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    Angela Rayner will be one of the best parts of a Labour Government in terms of connecting with the normal people up and down this country.

    They'd be wise to get her out during the election on the campaign trail as much as possible.

    Sure.

    If they want to depress their vote to a hung parliament.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    I disagree with you. I think a lot of the mental health issues around today are due to trying to force introverts to behave like extroverts.

    I both agree and disagree.

    I worked from home pretty much every day for two years (forcibly during Covid and then a bit after) and it destroyed my mental health. I was never able to escape work, I used to work ridiculous hours. Even though I was - and am - a very sociable chap I just couldn't get my mind off work. This exhausted me and I spiralled into depression.

    I then started a new job where I was in every day except Fridays. This initially improved my mental health but over time I felt completely exhausted having to commute in every day, I was constantly ill and I was actually incredibly unproductive because I was constantly being disturbed/distracted by others. My mental health dived again.

    So I settled on going in a couple of times a week and then working at home the other three. This gave me a great balance because on the days I went in I got my meetings done in person and for a lot of these I strongly feel the in-person element is important. But on the other days I got my work done in a productive way, I got to do my workouts when I wanted to, I got to run when I wanted to and I organised my day around work instead of the other way around. The result is that my mental health has maintained its strength as the best it has ever been, for well over a year.

    I am now looking for something new but I intend to maintain this arrangement for any job I do, assuming I am able to.

    I know not everyone has the luxury that I have but I feel very fortunate that I am able to work in a way that works for me.
    Good for you. Seriously

    Covid fucked with everyone’s brains, I know some that loved lockdown, I was more like you - damaged by it. I’ve realised I’m a kind of loner wandering extrovert - I need plenty of time on my own, to think, but I also love socialising and I basically NEED new experiences- mainly travel, or sex, or whatever - to keep me sane and not suicidal from boredom, Covid prevented: socialising, travel, sex, everything

    No wonder I was close to topping myself

    The scale of the psychic damage we have wrought with lockdowns on the populations of the world, especially kids, is only now becoming apparent. The introvert geeks who crunch data might have loved it, most hated it

    I was literally just now having this exact conversation with a Cambodian restaurant manager. He spoke of Covid like it was a second reign of the Khmer Rouge - he and his business and his sanity barely survived. What the fuck did we do to ourselves?
    I have been talking to my neighbour who works in a special school. Apparently since lockdown the number of referrals to the special school has grown exponentially. There is stuff that is hard to contemplate, like a significant proportion of children arriving in to school at age 4 without being potty trained which is supposedly attributed to Covid. What I suspect is most harmful is that kids have missed out on the process of socialisation, going around to each others houses etc. It was a lonely time. I personally couldn't shake off the view that it was all a psycho-drama and revealing of impulses towards totalitarianism but as an introvert with decent living accommodation and a family around me I don't think it bothered me all that much.
    What is the connection between Covid and potty training?
    Unfortunately, the connection is significant.. Such is the social and mental retardation of the Covid cohort of toddlers and infants, four year olds are arriving at nursery schools and they are still not toilet trained

    I have, by the way, heard this from MULTIPLE sources, from reading the blogs of teachers to newspaper articles to hearing of friends’ kids and grandkids to a couple of mates who actually teach these kids and see this daily

    I do not doubt it. This is a real problem, and it has not been seen before
    In my experience it is real and profound. Our child who was at 2 pretty nearly clean and dry before the covid restrictions had a severe developmental regression including this area. It had eventually resolved by the age of 5. I don't really understand it but it's a real thing. If I had the time again I would have broken the rules to give him the socialisation he needed but we obeyed the rules and more so due to the scaremongering.
    PB knows better and @TSE and the like will say you are simply lying
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,914

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    I supported lockdown at the time and was one of the biggest advocates of it along with that CorrectHorseBattery fellow (whatever happened to it?). But in hindsight I think whilst I can buy the arguments for the first lockdown, with what the government did and the impact it had, I really am very sceptical it was the right thing to do.
    As usual I seem to be in the non-ideological group - the early lockdowns made sense, but after the vaccines arrived, the C/B ratio changed dramatically.

    There seem to be plenty of ideologues on both sides of lockdowns.

    I had family at home with me, enough space to live and work - and a job to match. *Before* the first lockdown, they said - “You can send your whole desk, computer, monitors, chair etc home. Free delivery.”

    For many, many people there was no space, loneliness and no work. Let alone free delivery of Aeron office chairs.

    I think that's possibly the case outside of lockdown too.

    Aside from snark - I also think the first lockdown was probably the right call in the circumstances. They had no idea what was happening, or how to find out, or what was going to happen. Outside of the 'holy sh*t' coming out of Italy, Spain etc. (The reasons for them having no idea and no ability to find out are another matter of course).

    If the Alpha wave had come on us six months later than it did it's possible things would have then played out very differently.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,589
    There wasn't a lockdown. Unless you were shielding, if you were daft enough you could pop down to the shops every single day, and once you'd got home an had a cup of tea, then head out again for your daily exercise.

    And there wasn't the Stasi stopping you from breaking the rules and visiting folks as long as you didn’t shout it from the rooftops (or post about it on social media). We relied on community cohesion to do the right thing.

    We were shielding for 3 months - some may remember my posts describing my trips to the front gate to put the bin out. That's as far as I got.

    So to those who say that they were locked down while enjoying a daily stroll in the park or a bike ride through the countryside I say not really.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,945
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I see those who hated lockdown (a noisy group over represented on PB) are projecting this onto the population at large. Meanwhile..

    https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-doesnt-britain-regret-lockdown/

    I mean almost as many Brits think lockdown was right as want to rejoin the EU!

    The point is, under a more sensible regime, frit and eerie Nat weirdos like you would have been allowed to lockdown, if you so wanted. Meanwhile those who like living and fun and stuff - and were confident of surviving the Wuhan Flu - could have carried on

    More importantly, kids would have largely carried on going to school, learning language, not becoming Special Needs

    The government should have given us the choice. It should have kept society open, in the main, but allowed the vulnerable and the scared and the SNP to hide away
    The negative impact on kids schooling appears - fortunately - to have been incredibly short lived.

    At the end of 2021, Arizonan kids (particularly the young ones) were well ahead of New York and Californian ones. But by the middle of 2023, the gap had essentially been eliminated.

    Now there may be longer lived impacts on soclialization (and possibly autism rates too), but it looks like concerns that kids educational levels are going to be impacted are unwarranted.
    That’s America, where lockdowns were much less punitive

    It looks a lot worse in the UK - from what I can see

    I mean, I hope you’re right, please God. But I worry you are not
    This is a comparison between a state which did not have lockdowns at all (after the initial brief one in April/May 2020) and states which had severe lockdowns. My kids - in California - did not return to in person schooling for over a year, and even then it was only half time until the start of the 21/22 academic year.

    For what it's worth, these results shouldn't be a surprise. German schools don't even start teaching reading until kids are 7, and yet their kids end up at the same place as British ones by the time you get to the teens,
    That's a more severe lockdown than Britain, surely? We were back to in-person teaching from July 2020 (on and off).

    Agree with your second point all the way.
    It was a much more severe lockdown as far as in person education went. But there were essentially no restrictions on meeting other people outside or in private residences.
    So, in terms of the UK, your evidence is valueless and irrelevant. Got that settled then
This discussion has been closed.