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PB Predictions Competition 2024 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,165
edited January 8 in General
imagePB Predictions Competition 2024 – politicalbetting.com

Picuture: John William Waterhouse – The Crystal Ball – Wikipedia Public Domain

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,647
    Also I will not be entering this competition because I want to give somebody else a chance to win.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    England will win the euros
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,857
    Happy New Year everyone!

    But having said that, looks like events in Japan mean the year's already had its first natural disaster :open_mouth:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,021
    Here we go...

    1. 10%
    2. 31st October 2024
    3. Same as they are now
    4. NOM - Labour 10 seats short
    5. Haley and Biden
    6. Haley (or GOP if we just want the winning party)
    7. 4.5%
    8. 3.1%
    9. £87 billion
    10. 50

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,021

    Happy New Year everyone!

    But having said that, looks like events in Japan mean the year's already had its first natural disaster :open_mouth:

    You'll have to head up to the North East later this year to yellow-pen the "Northumberland Line".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    Happy New Year everyone!

    But having said that, looks like events in Japan mean the year's already had its first natural disaster :open_mouth:

    Did you not catch Yousaf's New Year address?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,590
    edited January 1
    FPT, for @Leon
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Happy new year from Abu Dhabi airport where I am having champagne and espresso in the lounge. Because


    JFK’s Chelsea lounge is nicer
    Oh I’m sure it is. But this is nice

    The best lounge I’ve personally been in is the BA Concorde lounge at LHR

    I’ve no doubt the well traveled folk of PB will offer superior examples

    But this is notably better and friendlier than Emirates
    Concorde is a bit tired now to be honest and honest, although the restaurant is decent.

    Yes possibly

    It was amazing 10 years ago

    So where is the best airport lounge in the world? Changi?
    This one in Dubai that I linked earlier. Al Majlis Lounge.

    https://www.dubaiairports.ae/while-youre-here/relax-refresh/lounges/lounge-details/al-majlis-lounge

    You arrive in their current-model BMW 7 series, which picked you up from anywhere in the UAE, go into one of 25 totally private suites, order food from a menu prepared by a Michelin-starred chef, and drink the Krug while you’re waiting for it. The concierge has taken your bags straight from the car, and is checking them in on your behalf.

    At some point, your passport control officer will come and say hi, take your passports for stamping and bring them back to you.

    Once you’ve decided whether you want to be first or last to board the plane, you wait to be called to walk through your private security gate and out airside to another 7-series, which takes you straight to the plane.

    You will never see another guest during your experience in Al Majlis Lounge, apart from your own party.

    It costs £500 per person.

    There’s also now also a similar one at LAX.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Marie’s Rock well beaten. 😢
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    On topic. Love the Waterhouse.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,021
    DavidL said:

    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!

    You missed one out!
  • madmacsmadmacs Posts: 92
    1 11pts
    2 17 Oct
    3 As now except Farage for Reform
    4 Lan 48 seat majority
    5 Wildcard Haley and Newsombe
    6 Haley
    7 3.75%
    8 2.8%
    9 63bn
    10 43
    Guess will need to wait until this time next year for the prize
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    DavidL said:

    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!

    You missed one out!
    So I did. Thanks!
    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 4.75%
    8 1.8%
    9. £94bn
    10. 44.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,021
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!

    You missed one out!
    So I did. Thanks!
    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 4.75%
    8 1.8%
    9. £94bn
    10. 44.
    First day of the year, and I'm coming to the aid of a Conservative!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,857
    edited January 1
    1. 8 points
    2. 21st November 2024
    3. Rishi, SKS, SED, Humza, Tice
    4. Labour, majority 25
    5. Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 4.1%
    8. 5.2%
    9. 100 billion dollars
    10. 56
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    Sandpit said:

    FPT, for @Leon

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Happy new year from Abu Dhabi airport where I am having champagne and espresso in the lounge. Because


    JFK’s Chelsea lounge is nicer
    Oh I’m sure it is. But this is nice

    The best lounge I’ve personally been in is the BA Concorde lounge at LHR

    I’ve no doubt the well traveled folk of PB will offer superior examples

    But this is notably better and friendlier than Emirates
    Concorde is a bit tired now to be honest and honest, although the restaurant is decent.

    Yes possibly

    It was amazing 10 years ago

    So where is the best airport lounge in the world? Changi?
    This one in Dubai that I linked earlier. Al Majlis Lounge.

    https://www.dubaiairports.ae/while-youre-here/relax-refresh/lounges/lounge-details/al-majlis-lounge

    You arrive in their current-model BMW 7 series, which picked you up from anywhere in the UAE, go into one of 25 totally private suites, order food from a menu prepared by a Michelin-starred chef, and drink the Krug while you’re waiting for it.

    At some point, your passport control officer will come and say hi, take your passports for stamping and bring them back to you.

    Once you’ve decided whether you want to be first or last to board the plane, you wait to be called to walk through your private security gate and out airside to another 7-series, which takes you straight to the plane.

    You will never see another guest during your experience in Al Majlis Lounge, apart from your own party.

    It costs £500 per person.

    There’s also now also a similar one at LAX.
    That does look quite sleek

    I presume the fizz flows freely?

    A truly world beating airport lounge would - it occurs to me - discreetly offer sexual relief
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!

    You missed one out!
    So I did. Thanks!
    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 4.75%
    8 1.8%
    9. £94bn
    10. 44.
    First day of the year, and I'm coming to the aid of a Conservative!
    It's that generosity of spirit that will give you a very happy new year!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,102

    Also I will not be entering this competition because I want to give somebody else a chance to win.

    I will not be entering this competition because I want to give somebody else a chance to lose :)

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    FPT: I want to commend AverageNinja for thinking long term. The strategy he is advocating would produce more conservative voters, starting about 20 years from now.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,647
    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,857

    Happy New Year everyone!

    But having said that, looks like events in Japan mean the year's already had its first natural disaster :open_mouth:

    You'll have to head up to the North East later this year to yellow-pen the "Northumberland Line".
    Don't forget Castleford to York (strictly speaking Milford Jn).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,479
    2024.

    Silly year, really.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,479
    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    @Sean_Fear does, I think.

    I always take what he says very seriously.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,634
    Thanks to TSE and BenPointer for organising this, but I won't be taking part. I have so little knowledge in some of the areas that I would just be plucking figures out of my backside, and if by some miracle I won, I'd feel like I cheated.

    I don't mind winning if I show a little knowledge, skill or intuition in the win; plain guesswork leave me a little cold.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,596

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    I think people miss the fact that while there are many, many, single-term-or-less presidencies, surprisingly few of those are the result of an incumbent president standing and losing. Carter, HW Bush and Trump being the (fairly) recent exceptions to that rule.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    FPT: Heathener - In the US, the increasing division between men and women is, I believe, our most serious domestic problem. (It is also, unfortunately, a difficult one for American governments to deal with.)

    That may be a growing problem in the UK, as well.

    So I hope you will contribute your ideas here, even though that means putting up with a certain amount of snark.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    The Biden senility thing is as ridiculous as Obama being aloof and arrogant. It is a meme that works when you are terminally online, have Fox News pushing a narrative, and you see things in terms of short cherry picked video clips. It's easy to select moments that make him look out of touch when he has a stutter.

    During an actual campaign, this will fall apart. And perhaps people will start paying attention to Trump's rantings about windmills or false memories about running against George Bush.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,408

    FPT: Heathener - In the US, the increasing division between men and women is, I believe, our most serious domestic problem. (It is also, unfortunately, a difficult one for American governments to deal with.)

    That may be a growing problem in the UK, as well.

    So I hope you will contribute your ideas here, even though that means putting up with a certain amount of snark.

    Peoples reaction to Heathener have little to do with her gender (even assuming she is what she says she is) and more to do with what they post - endlessly posting the same post time after time. Plus nonsense stories about saving money with a thermos for the excess boiled water from the kettle (why not just boil the correct amount?) and bollocks re new covid lockdowns ‘from her contact in the government’.

    She pops in early (time zone different to most?) then never engages in debate with those who reply to her posts.

    It’s not because she is a she. See @Cyclefree for the difference, plus a few others.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    The Biden senility thing is as ridiculous as Obama being aloof and arrogant. It is a meme that works when you are terminally online, have Fox News pushing a narrative, and you see things in terms of short cherry picked video clips. It's easy to select moments that make him look out of touch when he has a stutter.

    During an actual campaign, this will fall apart. And perhaps people will start paying attention to Trump's rantings about windmills or false memories about running against George Bush.
    He literally wanders off stage the wrong way, calls dead people to ask him questions, and praises the Black and Tans in Ireland

    This is not “a stutter”
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    edited January 1
    On topic: I am sorry I am unable to give predictions for those ten, eight because I don't know enough, and two (5 and 6) because I am not ready to do so.

    But I can make three predictions on different subjects:

    1. The Huskies will win the Sugar Bowl today.

    2. One of our hosts will learn how to spell Nikki Haley's last name.

    3. This September will be the 20th anniversary of PEPFAR, which has saved an estimated 25 million lives -- so far. The BBC will fail to give the anniversary the coverage it deserves. As will the NYT.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    OK:

    1. 7% LAB lead
    2. 2 May 2024
    3. CON - Sunak, LAB - Starmer, LD - Davey, SNP - Flynn (Westminster), Yousaf (Holyrood), Reform - Tice
    4. LAB maj 30 (LAB 340 seats)
    5. GOP: Haley DEM: Biden
    6. GOP Haley
    7. 4.00%
    8. 2.9%
    9. £100bn
    10. 50

    Good luck all :smile:
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Running might be the best hangover cure I've found.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,408

    Running might be the best hangover cure I've found.

    When I was way younger and used to get hangovers I found exercise of some sort almost always worked. Apart from one time when it nearly killed me - the hangover was just too strong that time.
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    1. 3%
    2. 2nd May 2024
    3. The same leaders as of 01/01/2024, with the exception of Reform who has Nigel Farage
    4. Labour + 12%
    5. Trump/Biden
    6. Biden
    7. The same as it is as of 01/01/2024
    8. 2.8%
    9. 150bn
    10. 69
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Running might be the best hangover cure I've found.

    When I was way younger and used to get hangovers I found exercise of some sort almost always worked. Apart from one time when it nearly killed me - the hangover was just too strong that time.
    It always feels terrible for the first part but once you force yourself into it, it quickly gets me over it I find. I have no idea why or how it works.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    The Biden senility thing is as ridiculous as Obama being aloof and arrogant. It is a meme that works when you are terminally online, have Fox News pushing a narrative, and you see things in terms of short cherry picked video clips. It's easy to select moments that make him look out of touch when he has a stutter.

    During an actual campaign, this will fall apart. And perhaps people will start paying attention to Trump's rantings about windmills or false memories about running against George Bush.
    He literally wanders off stage the wrong way, calls dead people to ask him questions, and praises the Black and Tans in Ireland

    This is not “a stutter”
    Every President and Presidential candidate in history has swapped in the wrong words sometimes. Especially on the campaign trail or on international trips dealing with jet lag. There are videos of Obama and Bush walking the wrong way off stage.

    That is what can easily be done when you have literally thousands of videos of footage and can splice together <0.1% of the footage to paint a narrative. The human brain is very bad as assessing for sample size, and it believes five examples of something is a trend.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!

    You missed one out!
    So I did. Thanks!
    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 4.75%
    8 1.8%
    9. £94bn
    10. 44.
    First day of the year, and I'm coming to the aid of a Conservative!
    Us CONs need all the help we can get particularly this year 👍
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    More unappealing than Hillary? Than Dukakis? Then Bob Dole? Than Mitt "I love being able to fire people" Romney. Biden has his flaws and is perhaps a lower than average candidate. But he is standing against someone that is going to be on TV for the first half of the year over his court case about how he led a violent attack on the US seat of government to cling to power.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Running might be the best hangover cure I've found.

    When I was way younger and used to get hangovers I found exercise of some sort almost always worked. Apart from one time when it nearly killed me - the hangover was just too strong that time.
    In “Down and Out in Paris and London” Orwell claims that working as a plongeur - a dishwasher in a busy restaurant kitchen - is a sovereign cure for a hangover. Hot sweaty exercise. Kingsley Amis likewise recommended vigorous sex (and he had a few hangovers, and a lot of sex)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    More unappealing than Hillary? Than Dukakis? Then Bob Dole? Than Mitt "I love being able to fire people" Romney. Biden has his flaws and is perhaps a lower than average candidate. But he is standing against someone that is going to be on TV for the first half of the year over his court case about how he led a violent attack on the US seat of government to cling to power.
    And the American electorate knows all this - yet polls put Trump ahead, nonetheless

    Dems are right to be concerned. Biden could easily lose
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    More unappealing than Hillary? Than Dukakis? Then Bob Dole? Than Mitt "I love being able to fire people" Romney. Biden has his flaws and is perhaps a lower than average candidate. But he is standing against someone that is going to be on TV for the first half of the year over his court case about how he led a violent attack on the US seat of government to cling to power.
    And the American electorate knows all this - yet polls put Trump ahead, nonetheless

    Dems are right to be concerned. Biden could easily lose
    They are right to be concerned and Biden could lose. But polls at this point in time are largely a comment on dissatisfaction with the incumbent, just as they were with Obama and Bush. When the election rolls round, it will be a choice. Biden vs Trump. And their platforms.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,385
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    The majority of Democrats may well wish that Biden would stand down for somebody younger. But if they don't get their wish, they'll still vote for him over Trump.
  • 10 stabs in the dark

    1. 9% LAB lead
    2. 14 November 2024
    3. CON - Sunak, LAB - Starmer, LD - Davey, SNP - Flynn (Westminster), Yousaf (Holyrood), Reform - Tice
    4. NOM LAB 315 seats
    5. GOP: Trump DEM: Biden
    6. GOP Trump
    7. 4.25%
    8. 3.7%
    9. £105bn
    10. 46
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,102
    Little piece of history: Tom Scott's last video in his ten-year-long Monday 4pm series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKv5H5Frt0
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,518
    1) 9 points
    2) 19 September
    3) As now
    4) Labour with plurality of seats. NOM, Lab seats 310
    5) Trump and Biden
    6) Trump
    7) 4%
    8) 3%
    9) £120bn
    10) 60
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,518
    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Yes, I think Trump will win. (and he currently leads in the betting)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Yes, I think Trump will win. (and he currently leads in the betting)
    To my mind it is too close to call. There are so many imponderables - from Trump’s legal issues to the volatile world situation (which could bite Biden quite badly). But if forced I’d have Trump as a very very slight favorite: 52/48, say

    I would not wager money on it
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    Will the other figures be given a %age leeway too?
    It'd be hard to hit more than one absolutely exactly.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    That said.
    10%
    November 14
    No changes.
    Labour 58
    Trump/Biden
    Biden
    3.5%
    2.5%
    £120bn
    40
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    Given their ages there is a non-trivial chance that either Trump or Biden will drop dead (or be incapacitated by illness) before the election. Which makes it even harder to call

    Fuck sake America. Kick out the wrinklies
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,518
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    All rather more specific than my generalities on Hogmanay but here goes:

    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 1.8%
    8.£94 bn (negative, naturally)
    9. 44.

    Best of luck to all!

    You missed one out!
    So I did. Thanks!
    1, 7%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey (who?) , Yousaf (why?) , Tice (what?)
    4. Labour, 40 seat majority, that is 335.
    5.Trump and Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 4.75%
    8 1.8%
    9. £94bn
    10. 44.
    A Labour 40 seat majority would be 345. 335 is a 20 seat majority. - (reckoning on 325 being a majority (ie without speaker) rather than 326 (which is the mathematical case).
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
    The cost of living went up significantly, and interest rates remain high. So, even though the economy is doing well, Americans have not personally felt hugely better off, or perhaps even worse off.

    And they don’t care about the rest of the world, so comparisons don’t matter.

    I’m mildly optimistic though that in 24, inflation will have started to fade from the memory, and with low oil prices and falling interest rates, Americans will start to feel more positive again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362
    It’s interesting to compare Biden to other one term presidents (if that is what he turns out to be)

    The most recent are Bush Senior and Jimmy Carter. I reckon Biden is a weaker candidate than Bush Senior and about as bad as Carter (for very very different reasons, obvs)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I think Biden should be marginal favorite, but it is a very close thing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,647
    edited January 1
    Leon said:

    It’s interesting to compare Biden to other one term presidents (if that is what he turns out to be)

    The most recent are Bush Senior and Jimmy Carter. I reckon Biden is a weaker candidate than Bush Senior and about as bad as Carter (for very very different reasons, obvs)

    I see your Trump love had made you forget the most recent one term POTUS.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited January 1
    Leon said:

    Given their ages there is a non-trivial chance that either Trump or Biden will drop dead (or be incapacitated by illness) before the election. Which makes it even harder to call

    Fuck sake America. Kick out the wrinklies

    On the other hand, Sunak is quite young, but also transparently useless.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    I think people miss the fact that while there are many, many, single-term-or-less presidencies, surprisingly few of those are the result of an incumbent president standing and losing. Carter, HW Bush and Trump being the (fairly) recent exceptions to that rule.
    They were also a long time ago.

    However, 2012 is now a long time ago. We're in a different era.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Leon said:

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
    The cost of living went up significantly, and interest rates remain high. So, even though the economy is doing well, Americans have not personally felt hugely better off, or perhaps even worse off.

    And they don’t care about the rest of the world, so comparisons don’t matter.

    I’m mildly optimistic though that in 24, inflation will have started to fade from the memory, and with low oil prices and falling interest rates, Americans will start to feel more positive again.
    Interesting, thanks

    I think it is social media as well, especially reports of


    1. Urban decay

    And

    2. Chaos at the border

    Even if gas is a buck cheaper than last year, if the average American thinks major cities are in a spiral of terrible decline, and the borders are entirely out of control, then Biden is in deep trouble: it feels like America is going the wrong way, despite GDP growth

    The images from the border are particularly compelling, many thousands crossing every day. Biden desperately needs to sort that, and get it off TV

    See here:


    BREAKING: U.S. border officials on track to process over 300,000 migrants in December, a record monthly high.

    https://x.com/cbsnews/status/1741482272535056445?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    A third of a million illegal immigrants in ONE MONTH
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Good morning and Happy New Year from very sunny Manhattan (it’s 6 degrees but could almost be t-shirt weather in the sun).

    I can’t be arsed doing the full competition, but I’m predicting Labour 40 : Conservative 30 in a November election.

    I also expect v high tactical voting against the Tories, so I predict a comfortable majority for Labour between 50 and 100.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Leon said:

    It’s interesting to compare Biden to other one term presidents (if that is what he turns out to be)

    The most recent are Bush Senior and Jimmy Carter. I reckon Biden is a weaker candidate than Bush Senior and about as bad as Carter (for very very different reasons, obvs)

    I see your Trump love had made you forget the most one term POTUS.
    lol. Yes. Trump is so fucking weird I forgot he was a one-termer
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
    The cost of living went up significantly, and interest rates remain high. So, even though the economy is doing well, Americans have not personally felt hugely better off, or perhaps even worse off.

    And they don’t care about the rest of the world, so comparisons don’t matter.

    I’m mildly optimistic though that in 24, inflation will have started to fade from the memory, and with low oil prices and falling interest rates, Americans will start to feel more positive again.
    Interesting, thanks

    I think it is social media as well, especially reports of


    1. Urban decay

    And

    2. Chaos at the border

    Even if gas is a buck cheaper than last year, if the average American thinks major cities are in a spiral of terrible decline, and the borders are entirely out of control, then Biden is in deep trouble: it feels like America is going the wrong way, despite GDP growth

    The images from the border are particularly compelling, many thousands crossing every day. Biden desperately needs to sort that, and get it off TV

    See here:


    BREAKING: U.S. border officials on track to process over 300,000 migrants in December, a record monthly high.

    https://x.com/cbsnews/status/1741482272535056445?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    A third of a million illegal immigrants in ONE MONTH
    I agree that migration is turning into a significant issue.
    If Biden loses, it will be because of this. I’d observe too that the Democrats barely recognise it as an issue, which is dangerous territory.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,567
    Probably one of the best YouTubers, Tom Scott, has just made the final video in his 10 year weekly series.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKv5H5Frt0
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    1. 9%
    2. 14 November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Farage
    4. Labour. Majority 154 (ie 402 seats)
    5. Trump, Biden
    6. Trump (tactical call here; I actually think Biden is more likely to win but the chances are close and there's no game advantage to predicting the same as everyone else)
    7. 4.5%
    8. 3.7%
    9. £113bn
    10. 49
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,102
    Leon said:

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
    The Honest Answer, part 2

    Earlier in part 1 I proposed the theory that our rulers do not care about the ruled, they are competing with their peers on how best to use their captive population.

    In this section I will look at how they compete with their peers and why it doesn't lead to success

    Our rulers have been measuring success by growth: a change in the GDP metric. It enables Sunak to say to Modi that "my growth is bigger than yours" or vice versa. But GDP does not measure the happiness nor income of the people and it's entirely possible for country GDP to go up but population happiness, income or QoL per person to go down. I submit that this is the reason why US success is not translating to Biden success.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,518
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Yes, I think Trump will win. (and he currently leads in the betting)
    To my mind it is too close to call. There are so many imponderables - from Trump’s legal issues to the volatile world situation (which could bite Biden quite badly). But if forced I’d have Trump as a very very slight favorite: 52/48, say

    I would not wager money on it
    I agree I would not put money on it. Partly because it's like betting on the father's obstacle race at the village show ('very hard to assess form' - Bertie Wooster) and partly because it's like betting on the outcome of a civil war.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
    The cost of living went up significantly, and interest rates remain high. So, even though the economy is doing well, Americans have not personally felt hugely better off, or perhaps even worse off.

    And they don’t care about the rest of the world, so comparisons don’t matter.

    I’m mildly optimistic though that in 24, inflation will have started to fade from the memory, and with low oil prices and falling interest rates, Americans will start to feel more positive again.
    Interesting, thanks

    I think it is social media as well, especially reports of


    1. Urban decay

    And

    2. Chaos at the border

    Even if gas is a buck cheaper than last year, if the average American thinks major cities are in a spiral of terrible decline, and the borders are entirely out of control, then Biden is in deep trouble: it feels like America is going the wrong way, despite GDP growth

    The images from the border are particularly compelling, many thousands crossing every day. Biden desperately needs to sort that, and get it off TV

    See here:


    BREAKING: U.S. border officials on track to process over 300,000 migrants in December, a record monthly high.

    https://x.com/cbsnews/status/1741482272535056445?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    A third of a million illegal immigrants in ONE MONTH
    I agree that migration is turning into a significant issue.
    If Biden loses, it will be because of this. I’d observe too that the Democrats barely recognise it as an issue, which is dangerous territory.
    Yep, and Trump can point to his whole “build the wall” shtick. Which was and is bollocks, but it makes him sound tougher and gives him a track record of “trying” to address the issue

    And with Texas bussing these migrants to Chicago and NYC the pain is spreading
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,535
    viewcode said:

    Little piece of history: Tom Scott's last video in his ten-year-long Monday 4pm series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKv5H5Frt0

    Awesome. One of life's natural educators.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Off topic. US Civil War, and what Nikki Haley believes.
    I’ve had chance to study of the Abraham Lincoln speech you sent me Nigel.

    https://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

    Part 1
    You, and many others, are clearly fans of Lincoln. But that’s not the point under discussion at all, the point here is everyone recognising Lincoln as the war causing disruptor he clearly was - disruptor to the ideas of Freedom others felt the formation and existence of the United States, and life in it was all about.

    Freedoms and Rights at the centre of American politics back then, as the argument they make America great.

    Let me prove my argument the Civil War wasn’t about slavery, but about Freedom and Rights, by using this Black Mirror. Delete and replace the constitutional freedom and right to own slaves, in a state opposed to slavery, with the freedom and right to bear arms in a state opposed to carrying guns. It doesn’t matter if it’s slavery, or gun ownership, or any point of moral or political contention - it’s where that freedom and right in America comes up against a disruptor, saying “can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow {slavery} to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively. Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong, vain as the search for a man who should be neither a living man nor a dead man - such as a policy of "don't care" on a question about which all true men do care - such as Union appeals beseeching true Union men to yield to Disunionists, reversing the divine rule, and calling, not the sinners, but the righteous to repentance - such as invocations to Washington, imploring men to unsay what Washington said, and undo what Washington did.”
    Lifted straight from Lincoln’s Cooper Union Address you sent me.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    Off topic. US Civil War, and what Nikki Haley believes.
    I’ve had chance to study of the Abraham Lincoln speech you sent me Nigel.

    https://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

    Part 1
    You, and many others, are clearly fans of Lincoln. But that’s not the point under discussion at all, the point here is everyone recognising Lincoln as the war causing disruptor he clearly was - disruptor to the ideas of Freedom others felt the formation and existence of the United States, and life in it was all about.

    Freedoms and Rights at the centre of American politics back then, as the argument they make America great.

    Let me prove my argument the Civil War wasn’t about slavery, but about Freedom and Rights, by using this Black Mirror. Delete and replace the constitutional freedom and right to own slaves, in a state opposed to slavery, with the freedom and right to bear arms in a state opposed to carrying guns. It doesn’t matter if it’s slavery, or gun ownership, or any point of moral or political contention - it’s where that freedom and right in America comes up against a disruptor, saying “can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow {slavery} to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively. Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong, vain as the search for a man who should be neither a living man nor a dead man - such as a policy of "don't care" on a question about which all true men do care - such as Union appeals beseeching true Union men to yield to Disunionists, reversing the divine rule, and calling, not the sinners, but the righteous to repentance - such as invocations to Washington, imploring men to unsay what Washington said, and undo what Washington did.”
    Lifted straight from Lincoln’s Cooper Union Address you sent me.

    Part 2 The more you send me, the more evidence it gives me that I am right.
    Let’s be honest in the terms we should use about Lincoln. He’s was a progressive, bringing a sense of duty to be progressive to any situation, into debate on any issue, and this made him the disruptor. I’m not saying you shouldn’t like Abraham Lincoln. But we must accept he is pressing for progressive change that is undoing what people believe are the Freedoms and Rights in America. And so Lincoln is the cause of the civil war.

    The more I read up on this, when the secessionists fired the first shot in the war, their right to keep slaves not actually under immediate threat in the slave states, by all means put me right if that’s wrong. However, by this point they have clearly been pushed by their “Nationalist” opponents “clear intentions of redefining” the Freedom and Rights in US as they understood them, into a position to cede from the Union.

    Recall “freedom and rights” are the words Haley used as to what the civil war was about in her instinctive answer to the question. And recall while she was, according to me, historically word perfect in her honest answer - that was used against her politically last week. However, rather than taking that answer out of the public sphere to believe it behind closed doors - a view of American history held behind closed doors, best not mentioned in public, which I claim is where it is being hidden, the US needs a more honest debate on this. And here’s the question, can the US have that honest debate on this right now? Or is the USA a place true history of Civil War is kept behind closed doors, because that same actual war hasn’t even been resolved yet?

    because, biggest Elephant in the room in the USA is how the Freedom and Rights indoctrinated into Americans, from birth even like the first thing whispered into each baby’s ear after the stork has dropped it off, completely grates against progressive and nationalist politics of Lincoln’s Copper Union address: that the National government, Congress, has both the moral duty and constitutional power to override “everything”, on issues where there cannot be groping for contrivances in the middle ground.

    Forget 1860 - instead take a little trip with Lincoln’s Copper Union Address through America today, and see just how many it can wind up into insurrection, even in 2024.

    I rest my case here. I’ve explained myself fully, whether you want to agree or not.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    More unappealing than Hillary? Than Dukakis? Then Bob Dole? Than Mitt "I love being able to fire people" Romney. Biden has his flaws and is perhaps a lower than average candidate. But he is standing against someone that is going to be on TV for the first half of the year over his court case about how he led a violent attack on the US seat of government to cling to power.
    Yeah. Biden is not uniquely unappealing. Trump is *far* more unappealing. Biden is uninspiring.

    But a big negative rating and a big positive rating on one side still adds up to much the same as a great pile of meh on the other.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,479
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    The Biden senility thing is as ridiculous as Obama being aloof and arrogant. It is a meme that works when you are terminally online, have Fox News pushing a narrative, and you see things in terms of short cherry picked video clips. It's easy to select moments that make him look out of touch when he has a stutter.

    During an actual campaign, this will fall apart. And perhaps people will start paying attention to Trump's rantings about windmills or false memories about running against George Bush.
    He literally wanders off stage the wrong way, calls dead people to ask him questions, and praises the Black and Tans in Ireland

    This is not “a stutter”
    We seem to woefully underreport US politics over here, and do so through quite a liberal perspective that would never be permitted were it our domestic politics.

    For example, the migration numbers coming across the southern US border are simply insane (think Channel boats x 100, but getting steadily worse not better) and Biden seems powerless to stop it at best and disinterested at worst.

    Hardly mentioned here. Where everyone seems to focus on Trump and his court cases, and how terrible he is.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    The majority of Democrats may well wish that Biden would stand down for somebody younger. But if they don't get their wish, they'll still vote for him over Trump.
    The question is more whether they (and independents) will vote at all.

    The big surprise (certainly from pre-mid-Oct) last time was the sheer size of the GOP vote; their ability to register and turn out voters. I can see a drop off in turnout from both sides on 2020 but given how close that election was, a huge amount turns on which drops more.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,854
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Possibly relevant to some of those predictions:
    "You won’t hear President Biden talking about it much, but a key record has been broken during his watch: The United States is producing more oil than any country ever has.

    The flow of huge amounts of crude from American producers is playing a big role in keeping prices down at the pump, diminishing the geopolitical power of OPEC and taming inflation. The average price of a gallon of regular gasoline nationwide has dropped to close to $3, and analysts project it could stay that way leading up to the presidential election, potentially assuaging the economic anxieties of swing-state voters who will be crucial to Biden’s hopes of a second term."
    source$:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/12/31/us-oil-production-has-hit-record-under-biden-he-hardly-mentions-it/

    (The price of gasoline is powerful politically, and amplified by the coverage. One local TV station (KOMO, the ABC affiliate) mentions it every single morning on their news programs, and I have begun to see commercials attacking the Democratic governor, Jay Inslee, for his "carbon tax" that has helped make gasoline prices here in Washington state about a dollar higher per gallon than in the US as a whole.)

    Why do you think American economic success is not translating into support for Biden?

    The American economy is positively flourishing compared to the rest of the West
    The cost of living went up significantly, and interest rates remain high. So, even though the economy is doing well, Americans have not personally felt hugely better off, or perhaps even worse off.

    And they don’t care about the rest of the world, so comparisons don’t matter.

    I’m mildly optimistic though that in 24, inflation will have started to fade from the memory, and with low oil prices and falling interest rates, Americans will start to feel more positive again.
    Interesting, thanks

    I think it is social media as well, especially reports of


    1. Urban decay

    And

    2. Chaos at the border

    Even if gas is a buck cheaper than last year, if the average American thinks major cities are in a spiral of terrible decline, and the borders are entirely out of control, then Biden is in deep trouble: it feels like America is going the wrong way, despite GDP growth

    The images from the border are particularly compelling, many thousands crossing every day. Biden desperately needs to sort that, and get it off TV

    See here:


    BREAKING: U.S. border officials on track to process over 300,000 migrants in December, a record monthly high.

    https://x.com/cbsnews/status/1741482272535056445?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    A third of a million illegal immigrants in ONE MONTH
    I agree that migration is turning into a significant issue.
    If Biden loses, it will be because of this. I’d observe too that the Democrats barely recognise it as an issue, which is dangerous territory.
    Yep, and Trump can point to his whole “build the wall” shtick. Which was and is bollocks, but it makes him sound tougher and gives him a track record of “trying” to address the issue

    And with Texas bussing these migrants to Chicago and NYC the pain is spreading
    Talking about events in the future. what came of the Finland Conjecture, pray? I fear I missed it while painting my shed or something of the sort.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,567
    1. 10%
    2. 14th November 2024
    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousaf, Tice
    4. Lab with 290 seats (short of majority by 36)
    5. Trump, Biden
    6. Biden
    7. 3.5%
    8. 2.5%
    9. £140 bn.
    10. 55
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,596

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    I think people miss the fact that while there are many, many, single-term-or-less presidencies, surprisingly few of those are the result of an incumbent president standing and losing. Carter, HW Bush and Trump being the (fairly) recent exceptions to that rule.
    They were also a long time ago.

    However, 2012 is now a long time ago. We're in a different era.
    True - but isn't that always the case. When you go back and look through the 46 presidencies there are a few that "group together" but each seems to represent a different time! Just taking 1945 onwards, we have Post war and Korea, civil rights and Vietnam, Reaganomics, Clinton boom, 9/11, The Insurrection. There are very few presidents in each of those eras.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,911
    edited January 1
    viewcode said:

    Little piece of history: Tom Scott's last video in his ten-year-long Monday 4pm series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKv5H5Frt0

    I've not followed Tom Scott nor realised he did publish every week but I sometimes rewatch his Dasani water one, and the Shakespeare one that (along with working alongside French colleagues) alerted me to Liz Truss's peculiarly Gallic speech rhythm where she'd speak in short phrases, emphasise the end, then pause (although in her case it might have been parce que l'autocue).

    Why you can't buy Dasani water in Britain
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD79NZroV88

    Why Shakespeare Could Never Have Been French
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUnGvH8fUUc
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    1 8%
    2 Tuesday 28 January 2025
    3 No change except Badenoch for Conservatives.
    4 Labour 200 majority
    5 Haley and Harris
    6 Haley
    7 5%
    8 4.5%
    9 £120bn
    10 45
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,102
    Accelerationism and Strauss–Howe generational theory
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,567
    edited January 1

    viewcode said:

    Little piece of history: Tom Scott's last video in his ten-year-long Monday 4pm series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKv5H5Frt0

    I've not followed Tom Scott nor realised he did publish every week but I sometimes rewatch his Dasani water one, and the Shakespeare one that (along with working alongside French colleagues) alerted me to Liz Truss's peculiarly Gallic speech rhythm where she'd speak in short phrases, emphasise the end, then pause (although in her case it might have been parce que l'autocue).

    Why you can't buy Dasani water in Britain
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD79NZroV88

    Why Shakespeare Could Never Have Been French
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUnGvH8fUUc
    Those two are pretty good. This is one of my favourites.

    "The moiré effect lights that guide ships home"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d99_h30swtM
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,751

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    Fair

    But Biden is a uniquely unappealing candidate. Every single poll shows a majority of Americans - even Democrats - want him to stand down for a younger guy/gal

    Trump v Biden = Iran v Iraq
    More unappealing than Hillary? Than Dukakis? Then Bob Dole? Than Mitt "I love being able to fire people" Romney. Biden has his flaws and is perhaps a lower than average candidate. But he is standing against someone that is going to be on TV for the first half of the year over his court case about how he led a violent attack on the US seat of government to cling to power.
    Yeah. Biden is not uniquely unappealing. Trump is *far* more unappealing. Biden is uninspiring.

    But a big negative rating and a big positive rating on one side still adds up to much the same as a great pile of meh on the other.
    Biden, though not great, is someone you could imagine, in a bar, chatting to ordinary working Americans. The Dems who lost such as Hilary and Dukakis, you couldn't. He's already beaten Trump once and should be favourite to do it again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    The Biden senility thing is as ridiculous as Obama being aloof and arrogant. It is a meme that works when you are terminally online, have Fox News pushing a narrative, and you see things in terms of short cherry picked video clips. It's easy to select moments that make him look out of touch when he has a stutter.

    During an actual campaign, this will fall apart. And perhaps people will start paying attention to Trump's rantings about windmills or false memories about running against George Bush.
    He literally wanders off stage the wrong way, calls dead people to ask him questions, and praises the Black and Tans in Ireland

    This is not “a stutter”
    We seem to woefully underreport US politics over here, and do so through quite a liberal perspective that would never be permitted were it our domestic politics.

    For example, the migration numbers coming across the southern US border are simply insane (think Channel boats x 100, but getting steadily worse not better) and Biden seems powerless to stop it at best and disinterested at worst.

    Hardly mentioned here. Where everyone seems to focus on Trump and his court cases, and how terrible he is.
    Indeed

    During Biden’s presidency, 6 million illegal migrants have entered the USA. SIX MILLION. It is stupefying, and, as you note, it is actually getting worse not better

    This alone could kill his chances in 2024. And we see nothing of it on British media
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,479
    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,362

    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    Not really

    Given how much I travel, I am always struck by how British people are comparatively polite and amiable and usually quite cheerful

    It is one of the crucial things that makes Britain a rather nice place to be, despite the weather and the Barratt homes
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744
    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Not a single PB-er believes Trump will win?

    That feels like hopecasting

    He’s ahead in the polls, Biden is senile (and won’t be able to avoid debates this time), the Donald will delay or overcome his legal problems, and the migration issue is a crapshow for the democrats

    I reckon Trump should be a slight favourite to win

    Rooted in fact old bean.

    At the equivalent point in the cycle Trump is doing worse than Romney and Biden is doing better than Obama.

    Plus incumbent Presidents seldom lose.
    I think people miss the fact that while there are many, many, single-term-or-less presidencies, surprisingly few of those are the result of an incumbent president standing and losing. Carter, HW Bush and Trump being the (fairly) recent exceptions to that rule.
    They were also a long time ago.

    However, 2012 is now a long time ago. We're in a different era.
    True - but isn't that always the case. When you go back and look through the 46 presidencies there are a few that "group together" but each seems to represent a different time! Just taking 1945 onwards, we have Post war and Korea, civil rights and Vietnam, Reaganomics, Clinton boom, 9/11, The Insurrection. There are very few presidents in each of those eras.
    I don't think those are necessarily the eras I'd be looking at - I'd think more in terms of how politics is done. In that sense, post-1945 encompasses the transition from convention to primaries (and was already quite well down that road by 1948, but also from unlimited terms to term limits, and also - most recently - the end of the convention (or practical outcome) that defeated candidates don't stand again.

    Most importantly, both parties were seen as much bigger than any one individual - even the likes of Reagan or FDR. That is no longer so, on the red half.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,408

    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    I blame the weather (December was unremittingly grim - and I actually like winter and short days). But yes, it’s not unusual to encounter arseholes who react in ways as you described when they are picked up on being in the wrong. And I think the whole covid 2m thing has got into some peoples heads a bit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,316

    Off topic. US Civil War, and what Nikki Haley believes.
    I’ve had chance to study of the Abraham Lincoln speech you sent me Nigel.

    https://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

    Part 1
    You, and many others, are clearly fans of Lincoln. But that’s not the point under discussion at all, the point here is everyone recognising Lincoln as the war causing disruptor he clearly was - disruptor to the ideas of Freedom others felt the formation and existence of the United States, and life in it was all about.

    Freedoms and Rights at the centre of American politics back then, as the argument they make America great.

    Let me prove my argument the Civil War wasn’t about slavery, but about Freedom and Rights, by using this Black Mirror. Delete and replace the constitutional freedom and right to own slaves, in a state opposed to slavery, with the freedom and right to bear arms in a state opposed to carrying guns. It doesn’t matter if it’s slavery, or gun ownership, or any point of moral or political contention - it’s where that freedom and right in America comes up against a disruptor, saying “can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow {slavery} to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively. Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong, vain as the search for a man who should be neither a living man nor a dead man - such as a policy of "don't care" on a question about which all true men do care - such as Union appeals beseeching true Union men to yield to Disunionists, reversing the divine rule, and calling, not the sinners, but the righteous to repentance - such as invocations to Washington, imploring men to unsay what Washington said, and undo what Washington did.”
    Lifted straight from Lincoln’s Cooper Union Address you sent me.

    Part 2 The more you send me, the more evidence it gives me that I am right.
    Let’s be honest in the terms we should use about Lincoln. He’s was a progressive, bringing a sense of duty to be progressive to any situation, into debate on any issue, and this made him the disruptor. I’m not saying you shouldn’t like Abraham Lincoln. But we must accept he is pressing for progressive change that is undoing what people believe are the Freedoms and Rights in America. And so Lincoln is the cause of the civil war.

    The more I read up on this, when the secessionists fired the first shot in the war, their right to keep slaves not actually under immediate threat in the slave states, by all means put me right if that’s wrong. However, by this point they have clearly been pushed by their “Nationalist” opponents “clear intentions of redefining” the Freedom and Rights in US as they understood them, into a position to cede from the Union.

    Recall “freedom and rights” are the words Haley used as to what the civil war was about in her instinctive answer to the question. And recall while she was, according to me, historically word perfect in her honest answer - that was used against her politically last week. However, rather than taking that answer out of the public sphere to believe it behind closed doors - a view of American history held behind closed doors, best not mentioned in public, which I claim is where it is being hidden, the US needs a more honest debate on this. And here’s the question, can the US have that honest debate on this right now? Or is the USA a place true history of Civil War is kept behind closed doors, because that same actual war hasn’t even been resolved yet?

    because, biggest Elephant in the room in the USA is how the Freedom and Rights indoctrinated into Americans, from birth even like the first thing whispered into each baby’s ear after the stork has dropped it off, completely grates against progressive and nationalist politics of Lincoln’s Copper Union address: that the National government, Congress, has both the moral duty and constitutional power to override “everything”, on issues where there cannot be groping for contrivances in the middle ground.

    Forget 1860 - instead take a little trip with Lincoln’s Copper Union Address through America today, and see just how many it can wind up into insurrection, even in 2024.

    I rest my case here. I’ve explained myself fully, whether you want to agree or not.
    The Fire Eaters had pushed the narrative that slavery had to expand or die. They also pushed a narrative that all Republicans were John Brown supporting abolitionists.

    They also believed this themselves. They convinced themselves that no matter what assurances were given to them, on slavery, that the election of Lincoln was the beginning of an assault on slavery.

    To remain in the USA, when pro slavery politicians were not in control of the government was intolerable to them.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    Off topic. US Civil War, and what Nikki Haley believes.
    I’ve had chance to study of the Abraham Lincoln speech you sent me Nigel.

    https://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

    Part 1
    You, and many others, are clearly fans of Lincoln. But that’s not the point under discussion at all, the point here is everyone recognising Lincoln as the war causing disruptor he clearly was - disruptor to the ideas of Freedom others felt the formation and existence of the United States, and life in it was all about.

    Freedoms and Rights at the centre of American politics back then, as the argument they make America great.

    Let me prove my argument the Civil War wasn’t about slavery, but about Freedom and Rights, by using this Black Mirror. Delete and replace the constitutional freedom and right to own slaves, in a state opposed to slavery, with the freedom and right to bear arms in a state opposed to carrying guns. It doesn’t matter if it’s slavery, or gun ownership, or any point of moral or political contention - it’s where that freedom and right in America comes up against a disruptor, saying “can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow {slavery} to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively. Let us be diverted by none of those sophistical contrivances wherewith we are so industriously plied and belabored - contrivances such as groping for some middle ground between the right and the wrong, vain as the search for a man who should be neither a living man nor a dead man - such as a policy of "don't care" on a question about which all true men do care - such as Union appeals beseeching true Union men to yield to Disunionists, reversing the divine rule, and calling, not the sinners, but the righteous to repentance - such as invocations to Washington, imploring men to unsay what Washington said, and undo what Washington did.”
    Lifted straight from Lincoln’s Cooper Union Address you sent me.

    Part 2 The more you send me, the more evidence it gives me that I am right.
    Let’s be honest in the terms we should use about Lincoln. He’s was a progressive, bringing a sense of duty to be progressive to any situation, into debate on any issue, and this made him the disruptor. I’m not saying you shouldn’t like Abraham Lincoln. But we must accept he is pressing for progressive change that is undoing what people believe are the Freedoms and Rights in America. And so Lincoln is the cause of the civil war.

    The more I read up on this, when the secessionists fired the first shot in the war, their right to keep slaves not actually under immediate threat in the slave states, by all means put me right if that’s wrong. However, by this point they have clearly been pushed by their “Nationalist” opponents “clear intentions of redefining” the Freedom and Rights in US as they understood them, into a position to cede from the Union.

    Recall “freedom and rights” are the words Haley used as to what the civil war was about in her instinctive answer to the question. And recall while she was, according to me, historically word perfect in her honest answer - that was used against her politically last week. However, rather than taking that answer out of the public sphere to believe it behind closed doors - a view of American history held behind closed doors, best not mentioned in public, which I claim is where it is being hidden, the US needs a more honest debate on this. And here’s the question, can the US have that honest debate on this right now? Or is the USA a place true history of Civil War is kept behind closed doors, because that same actual war hasn’t even been resolved yet?

    because, biggest Elephant in the room in the USA is how the Freedom and Rights indoctrinated into Americans, from birth even like the first thing whispered into each baby’s ear after the stork has dropped it off, completely grates against progressive and nationalist politics of Lincoln’s Copper Union address: that the National government, Congress, has both the moral duty and constitutional power to override “everything”, on issues where there cannot be groping for contrivances in the middle ground.

    Forget 1860 - instead take a little trip with Lincoln’s Copper Union Address through America today, and see just how many it can wind up into insurrection, even in 2024.

    I rest my case here. I’ve explained myself fully, whether you want to agree or not.
    The Fire Eaters had pushed the narrative that slavery had to expand or die. They also pushed a narrative that all Republicans were John Brown supporting abolitionists.

    They also believed this themselves. They convinced themselves that no matter what assurances were given to them, on slavery, that the election of Lincoln was the beginning of an assault on slavery.

    To remain in the USA, when pro slavery politicians were not in control of the government was intolerable to them.
    They also believed that even if Lincoln wasn't going to do lead an assault on slavery himself - and he well might - the North would do so sooner or later, one way or another. And that it had the economic and political muscle to do so, if it voted as a block (as it just had under Lincoln, and as it might well continue to do if slavery was *the* defining divisive issue.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    What fun. But to enter requires some sober thought.

    Meanwhile, I see that tonight’s Post Office scandal drama is now streamable on ITVX.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226

    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    To be honest, since I’ve had physical challenges necessitating the use either of a wheelchair or a substantial walking aid, people couldn’t have been kinder or more helpful.
    Yup. Most people remain good.

    But anyone who has had a job facing the public has some horror stories, I suspect. Are they commoner and nastier now? Perhaps. Partly because everyone is more tired than in the past, but also I suspect that we've got used to zero sum thinking- the main way to get ahead is to push others down.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,857

    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    14 years of Tory mis-rule :lol:
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,462

    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    To be honest, since I’ve had physical challenges necessitating the use either of a wheelchair or a substantial walking aid, people couldn’t have been kinder or more helpful.
    Hopefully that's not Mrs. OKC you're describing as substantial.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198
    IanB2 said:

    What fun. But to enter requires some sober thought.

    Meanwhile, I see that tonight’s Post Office scandal drama is now streamable on ITVX.

    We were just saying, weren't we, that this is what the story needed to gain the public attention it deserves.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226
    Oh, and

    1. Seven points. (Lots of fuss until it turns out to be an outlier.)

    2. 19 December 2024

    3. Sunak, Starmer, Davey, Yousuf, Farage

    4. Labour with a majority of 75

    5. Trump, Biden

    6. Biden

    7. 4.5 percent

    8. 3.2 percent

    9. £126 billion

    10. 58
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Has anyone else noticed that people have got ruder?

    Not on here. Both my wife and I (on holiday in North Devon) have had two strangers be very rude to us in recent days. One guy flipped me the bird when I pointed out to him the area of the pub we were in with our kids was a dog-free area. And my wife had a lady in M&S get very rude with her for invading her "personal space" when she was packing her bags at the till, and my wife was next in line for the checkout. My half-sister also now works in retail part-time and she says the same - customers every day who are huffy and rude.

    Of course, not everyone is like this but these incidents do stand out, and I sort of now start to understand why so many venues and outlets have signs up saying abuse of their staff is unacceptable.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    We have had a series of rude Tory governments, ready to show the finger to their critics, the law, propriety, or ordinary folk.

    Perhaps they have led by example.
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