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Can you handle two massive elections at the same time? – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Dubai fireworks https://youtube.com/watch?v=VGzWdrzTIvA usually one of the best displays, based around the Burj Khalifa.

    Sadly not my view tonight, it’s a little too misty for me to see from home nine miles away. 20 minutes to go!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    edited December 2023
    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    I’m


    TimS said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Happy new year everyone.

    The main change for me in 2023 was moving to a situation where my family have two homes, a flat in the south east of the UK and an old wooden house in Finland. We have been travelling between the two. The total cost of all travel, including working one day a week in the office in London and flying to and from Finland is less than an annual season ticket to travel in to London every day from our house in England cost me in 2014. The schooling and quality of life and overall social system is far better in Finland but the weather and landscape is in my view preferable in England despite Finland being beautiful in its own way. The total cost of the two homes combined was less than a family house in England and the running costs are manageable but I shouldn't pretend that it wasn't all basically made possible by inheritance. The main purpose of living like this was to put my son in to the Finnish school system which has worked out well but obviously it comes with other challenges.

    Whilst I have been negative about Covid and mass immigration a lot the main positive of these two factors was a shift to remote working that made all this possible, I've got colleagues online in Egypt and Nicaragua. It is minus 15 here in Finland and I have been out shovelling snow. About to go to buy some beers before the 9pm licensing cut off.

    How v interesting.
    Can we ask how you managed the visa situation?

    My wife and I have decided to do another 12-18 months in New York. The kids are happy here - happier than they were in London but admittedly it was a Covid-blighted London.

    I miss the UK and while I fiercely love certain things about the US, there are other things I don’t think I could ever totally reconcile myself to.

    It‘a hard being an immigrant. This is my third country of residence. Where, really, is home?
    Quite complex and with some possibly unresolved grey areas... but in summary we are dual EU nationals so the issues fall away. It is a bit different for us because my wife is Finnish and very rooted here. I did work out that I could never completely 'leave' England for various reasons largely to do with family and work so we came up with this solution. I've learned to be ok with travelling around and being on the move whereas my wife and son prefer to spend longer periods in each place. My son now has two sets of friends, one in England and one in Finland, two lots of birthday parties to attend etc so a lot of forward planning needed. In Finland they are not that worried about him missing school the way they were in England. Most of the year the flights on Ryanair are about £30 each way.
    Sounds like a nice arrangement, I envy you your EU passports. 🇪🇺
    Yeah, I realise it is an enviable arrangement and don't take it for granted. Sorting it out took many years and cost thousands of pounds though - just to continue the rights we had in early 2016.
    I’m just happy the French have legislated to allow British second home owners to get a simple 6 month visa.

    Completely discriminatory law, but suits me.
    Don’t you have young-ish kids?
    Perhaps I get you mixed up slightly with @OnlyLivingBoy

    Education keeps me tethered more than anything else.
    Yes, youngish kids, as does OLB. But it’s not long until one of them is a free living adult.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    FPT:

    dixiedean said:

    What if the markets take fright at these tax cuts?
    What then?

    Different scenario. The Lizaster had just been appointed PM with a couple of years left to run. Rishi would have weeks left to run. The markets would express their alarm, effectively back Labour, and wait.
    No, I think unfunded tax cuts would do to the markets exactly what they did in September 2022.
    The Bank of England's bond flog-off dwarved any 'unfunded' tax cuts in fiscal terms. Under the Treasury's commitment to indemnify the Bank against it's losses, what had been announced the day before the minibudget was set to cost the Treasury over £80bn (it has cost more in the event). Any marketeers paying attention would have noted that fact.
    So on the day of the Treasury's announcement, day before the mini-budget, GBP gained slightly against the USD; on the day of the budget it lost 3% against the USD.

    Those markets were a bit slow to react to the Treasury announcement, what kept them?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63009173
    There are various reasons for a delayed (very slightly delayed) market response to the BOE announcement, but that's not something I even need to explain to defend my argument. You state that 'unfunded tax cuts' spooked the markets. From memory, there were about £40bn of tax cuts in the mini budget. Within the BOE announcement, there was £80bn of 'unfunded' cost to the exchequer. That's just comparing apples and apples - a completely separate issue from any impact on the market price of UK bonds based on the fact that their biggest holder and purchaser had decided to divest.
    You continually misunderstand d this. It’s not a “loss” in the normal sense

    Basically these bonds were bought will printed money.

    They are being sold for less than they were bought for.

    All that means is that the money supply will have permanently expanded rather than been fully sterilised
    No, you continually misunderstand this. The Government is committed to funding the
    Bank's losses on its bond sales at the Treasury's expense. That's real taxpayer's (and borrowed) money being paid over each month and it is therefore directly comparable to the impact of public spending or tax cuts on the public finances.
    The borrowed money is coming from the Bank of England.

    I do this for a living. What do you do?
    I'm a Marketing Manager for SMEs. I'm good at my job and proud of what I do. Perhaps my lack of professional experience in this area is why I have done my homework, whereas you have not. The borrowed money being remitted to the Bank is being borrowed on the international money markets; it is not coming from the Bank of England, or what would be the point of the entire exercise?

    Everything I have said on this subject is entirely valid, the Bank bung is public spending drawn from the same pot as hospitals, HS2 and cuts in tax.

    Furthermore, apeals to your own expertise have no bearing on the discussion except to invalidate your own arguments.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    Happy New Year all!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 319
    Last year marked the bicentenary of the medical journal The Lancet, first published in October 1823. The Lancet was one of the world’s first medical journals, only outranked by the New England Journal Medicine (which dates from 1812). The first editor of The Lancet, the surgeon Thomas Wakley (later Sir Thomas Wakley) took it upon himself to expose frauds and quackery in medical practice.

    Wakley subsequently became a member of parliament, and it was at his instigation that the Medical Act 1858 passed into law, laying the way to the creation of the General Medical Council (GMC). The purpose of the act, set out in the opening sentence of the legislation is to ensure that ‘Persons requiring Medical Aid should be enabled to distinguish qualified from unqualified Practitioners’.

    The problem which the Medical Act of 1858 was intended to solve was not a new one. In 1518, King Henry VIII established the Royal College of Physicians, and in its founding charter gave the College the power to determine who could, and who could not, call themselves a physician.

    In the last twenty years, successive governments, aware of the relentless increase in workload of the NHS, have promised more doctors. A number of new medical schools have been created, but no one seems to have addressed the unendurable pressure of work, the intolerable conditions of service, and declining remuneration. The inevitable result is that doctors retire early, emigrate, choose other careers, or move to the private sector. The number of doctors fails to increase.

    Rather than attend to the obvious solution and take more care of the doctors, the government’s idea has been to flood the NHS with bogus doctors, dressed up with the title Physician Associate. They have no medical qualifications, but seem remarkably keen to ‘have a go’; whether patients appreciate that they are not qualified doctors is open to doubt. Already we are hearing of the inevitable consequences.

    In December 2023, on a conveniently busy day for news, the government sneaked through parliament a change in the GMC’s duties, which placed upon them the duty of registering the Physician Associates. In turn, the GMC has asked the Royal College of Physicians to be responsible for the training of these new ‘gimcracks’. The story has received remarkably little coverage in the press.

    The problems of medical manpower can be solved by giving us the resources to work efficiently; better IT and secretarial support would be a start, together with less managerial interference. The answer isn’t to appoint Potemkin doctors.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Think of Auden’s In Praise of Limestone.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    A
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Indeed


    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself.
    Each is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thine own
    Or of thine friend's were.
    Each man's death diminishes me,
    For I am involved in mankind.
    Therefore, send not to know
    For whom the bell tolls,
    It tolls for thee.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    IDF withdrawing (some) troops from the Gaza strip
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Here’s a map of the last but one presidential, focussed on the centre-East.



    Very obvious topographical and geological correlation.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    covid changed things. for the people needing to shield most, beforehand they'd be able to spend most of the summer not worrying too much about flu/colds. Covid is spread year round.

    there are a number of people (I know a couple) who are being more cautious than they possibly need but even with the vaccines, and assuming they can have them, they get less benefit from them for a shorter period.

    The whole point of vaccines is to prevent the spread of diseases to protect those that can't have the vaccine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    Died unaware of viral risk in many cases, possibly ?

    I’d probably just carry on taking my chances, FWIW, but I can equally see that some would choose otherwise.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394
    franklyn said:

    Last year marked the bicentenary of the medical journal The Lancet, first published in October 1823. The Lancet was one of the world’s first medical journals, only outranked by the New England Journal Medicine (which dates from 1812). The first editor of The Lancet, the surgeon Thomas Wakley (later Sir Thomas Wakley) took it upon himself to expose frauds and quackery in medical practice.

    Wakley subsequently became a member of parliament, and it was at his instigation that the Medical Act 1858 passed into law, laying the way to the creation of the General Medical Council (GMC). The purpose of the act, set out in the opening sentence of the legislation is to ensure that ‘Persons requiring Medical Aid should be enabled to distinguish qualified from unqualified Practitioners’.

    The problem which the Medical Act of 1858 was intended to solve was not a new one. In 1518, King Henry VIII established the Royal College of Physicians, and in its founding charter gave the College the power to determine who could, and who could not, call themselves a physician.

    In the last twenty years, successive governments, aware of the relentless increase in workload of the NHS, have promised more doctors. A number of new medical schools have been created, but no one seems to have addressed the unendurable pressure of work, the intolerable conditions of service, and declining remuneration. The inevitable result is that doctors retire early, emigrate, choose other careers, or move to the private sector. The number of doctors fails to increase.

    Rather than attend to the obvious solution and take more care of the doctors, the government’s idea has been to flood the NHS with bogus doctors, dressed up with the title Physician Associate. They have no medical qualifications, but seem remarkably keen to ‘have a go’; whether patients appreciate that they are not qualified doctors is open to doubt. Already we are hearing of the inevitable consequences.

    In December 2023, on a conveniently busy day for news, the government sneaked through parliament a change in the GMC’s duties, which placed upon them the duty of registering the Physician Associates. In turn, the GMC has asked the Royal College of Physicians to be responsible for the training of these new ‘gimcracks’. The story has received remarkably little coverage in the press.

    The problems of medical manpower can be solved by giving us the resources to work efficiently; better IT and secretarial support would be a start, together with less managerial interference. The answer isn’t to appoint Potemkin doctors.

    This is somewhat I’ll informed. The PA’s will have degrees and undertake postgraduate training in the role. I agree with the issues around doctor retention, but to attack PA’s is not right. I suppose you don’t think nurses should be able to prescribe drugs, or pharmacists, but suitably qualified nurses and pharmacist do this now, and all pharmacists who graduate from 2025 on will be able to prescribe.
    It’s well worth challenging ways of operating all the time.
    My favourite example is this. During my leukaemia treatment I had bloods taken on a regular basis. Phlebotomists do this all day every day and had no issues. A doctor who had taken my bone marrow sample proceeded to try 5 (yes five!) places to get some peripheral bloods. I know who I wanted to take the blood…
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited December 2023
    I’m not a rock guy, but it’s it basically that the fertile Thames and Severn Valleys promoted a Tory squirearchy, and the rocky uplands of everywhere else…did not? Look at the distribution of Church of England parishes, among other things.

    Basically, the Severn-Wash line, give or take.

    I haven’t quite worked out why Essex and Kent are so relatively Brexity, though. The Kentish Weald is not terribly fertile (was ironworks, not hops), but I don’t think that translates. Essex, former dairying country, should be more comfortable, should it not?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    IanB2 said:

    I hate New Year, so will be having an early night as usual. But the dog will be up, and he says….


    Am happy. Thank you.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,243

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    They had problems - but with COVID, for some people is as it was when Italian medical services were collapsing and all the flint knappers were running for Cornwall.

    Literally existential for them.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394
    spudgfsh said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    covid changed things. for the people needing to shield most, beforehand they'd be able to spend most of the summer not worrying too much about flu/colds. Covid is spread year round.

    there are a number of people (I know a couple) who are being more cautious than they possibly need but even with the vaccines, and assuming they can have them, they get less benefit from them for a shorter period.

    The whole point of vaccines is to prevent the spread of diseases to protect those that can't have the vaccine.
    Covid will likely become seasonal too.
  • Happy New Year all!

    Half-thinking of whether I should quit my job.

    Might keep it on ice and see how the year goes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258

    I’m not a rock guy, but it’s it basically that the fertile Thames and Severn Valleys promoted a Tory squirearchy, and the rocky uplands of everywhere else…did not? Look at the distribution of Church of England parishes, among other things.

    Basically, the Severn-Wash line, give or take.

    I haven’t quite worked out why Essex and Kent are so relatively Brexity, though. The Kentish Weald is not terribly fertile (was ironworks, not hops), but I don’t think that translates. Essex, former dairying country, should be more comfortable, should it not?

    Eastern England was the cradle of the Cromwellians. It has always had this “stout yeoman” Roundhead rebel streak. And Essex is notoriously insurgent

    Purer Anglo Saxon blood?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    Died unaware of viral risk in many cases, possibly ?

    I’d probably just carry on taking my chances, FWIW, but I can equally see that some would choose otherwise.
    We all make health choices, all the time. I would never eat food from an establishment without the highest hygiene rating, for instance. It cannot have been a great time for people who needed to shield, and perhaps still feel the need too.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    They had problems - but with COVID, for some people is as it was when Italian medical services were collapsing and all the flint knappers were running for Cornwall.

    Literally existential for them.
    South Wales, but point taken
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    spudgfsh said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    spudgfsh said:

    viewcode said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    I am not. It seems to be arriving though... :(
    take it as it comes, if it's too much ask for help.

    this is truly the first year I've been looking forward to since before the pandemic. following the pandemic everything got too much for me and I fell apart mentally in 2022. I've spent this year making changes and putting myself back together again. I'm looking forward to moving on next year. Hopefully I can leave the past alone from here on out.
    Good luck, bro!

    A lot of us were scarred by Covid. I only really moved on late last year, the autumn of 2022

    Many are still there. The other day, down in Cornwall for Chrimbo, I messaged a very old friend in Padstow that I haven't seen since pre-pandemic, I suggested a drink and a long overdue catch up

    He answered "Sure, briliant, I know a good pub, but it will have to be outside, we are still shielding"

    WTAFFFF

    I did some research and found out this is true. This person has been "shielding" since 2020 and has not stopped. No one has been inside their house. We are on the cusp of 2024. Will it be like this for the rest of his life?

    How many others are like that?

    I never saw my friend. It rained like fuck and I am not gonna stand outside a pub in the rain talking to someone in a frigging mask
    Now is not a stupid time to shield, if you are immunocompromised. Covid is definitely going through one of its waves, and while that's no big deal for those of us with healthy immune systems, and who have been jabbed and infected, it might well be for the old and the sick.
    Perhaps

    But my point is, this person has been shielding perpetually since lockdown 1. Never stopped

    What kind of life is that?
    Is the risk from Covid any higher than anything else going around at the moment? I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she said that even though they were still doing daily testing (because they work with vulnerable patients) she wasn't aware of covid related ICU admissions in the local hospital. Lots of people seem to be still doing this testing, shielding, mask wearing etc. One person I spoke to said that she was buying LFT tests from Tesco at 10 for £18. We couldn't see a close relative at Christmas due to self isolation in a care home due to a positive covid test. But is any of this actually proportionate to the risk from the current 'wave' of the virus?

    In the talk of the horror of “abandoning people to die” in the COVID context, it is worth remembering that we have abandoned people.

    There are some immune compromised people who can’t take the vaccine and are at major risk from COVID.

    I recall an account of one lady, who is living in the most remote Welsh cottage she can find.

    For her, abandoning lockdowns was abandonment.

    While I have much sympathy for the lady mentioned and others like her, realistically what else could we do and what did they do before covid? Plenty other nasty viruses out there that would be tough. Essentially covid19 has joined the roster of nasty bugs. For the vast majority of us it’s hardly an issue, but not all. Arguably appropriate antivirals might help?
    My point was that society is ok abandoning people - so long as they are small in number are not especially cute.

    There is, I understand, an ongoing issue with NICE, some new and very expensive drugs to boost he immune system, and such cases. Essentially - is having to live like a hermit a major life impact or not?
    I understand your point but what can be done? Other than anti virals as suggested? We cannot eradicate covid. If the individual cannot b3 vaccinated then that’s tragic, but I don’t see many alternatives.
    I think the point is rather to stop taking the piss out if them for still worrying about Covid.
    Which is fair, although as I’ve said what did they do before covid?
    covid changed things. for the people needing to shield most, beforehand they'd be able to spend most of the summer not worrying too much about flu/colds. Covid is spread year round.

    there are a number of people (I know a couple) who are being more cautious than they possibly need but even with the vaccines, and assuming they can have them, they get less benefit from them for a shorter period.

    The whole point of vaccines is to prevent the spread of diseases to protect those that can't have the vaccine.
    Covid will likely become seasonal too.
    almost certainly but it'll probably take a decade or more as it's a more novel virus. The combined flu/covid vaccine may help control it though

    I read somewhere that two of the worst colds people get every year are the descendants of two flu pandemics (1918 and one from the 1870s)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited December 2023
    viewcode said:

    darkage said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm still calling the UK general election for 2 May.

    Happy New Year to all on PB 👍🍺

    Do we have a PB poster of the year?

    I'm going for quality of post over quantity - darkage and Fishing for me.
    Thanks for this Stocky, very flattering.
    I have particularly appreciated posts this year from @Dura_Ace for comic value; kle4 for written style; Leon on AI/Aliens.

    Thanks to those who run the site, I've not posted that much this year but it is always good to know it is here - and that there is a remaining part of the internet where people can respectfully disagree with each other.

    Without faux humility, whilst welcome I fear you do flatter me a little - if I were to take a stab at my most prominent writing characteristic I would probably plump for thoroughness over style.
    You wrote some very good posts recently which articulated very complex things very concisely.

    I was always being 'praised' for being 'thorough'. I then switched to writing short sentences. Cutting out anything superfluous. It is something I started practicing on PB but now do it at work. Writing emails a couple of lines long that convey the point immediately.
    Change all the adjectives to "very". Remove all the "very"s.
    'I was always being '' for being ''. I then switched to writing sentences. Cutting out anything . It is something I started practicing on PB but now do it at work. Writing emails a couple of lines that convey the point immediately.'
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
    I drove from Beaune to our house this afternoon, via Pommard, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. The area is ridiculous. Land so valuable you could buy a house, knock it down and sell for more money by planting vines.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Leon said:

    I’m not a rock guy, but it’s it basically that the fertile Thames and Severn Valleys promoted a Tory squirearchy, and the rocky uplands of everywhere else…did not? Look at the distribution of Church of England parishes, among other things.

    Basically, the Severn-Wash line, give or take.

    I haven’t quite worked out why Essex and Kent are so relatively Brexity, though. The Kentish Weald is not terribly fertile (was ironworks, not hops), but I don’t think that translates. Essex, former dairying country, should be more comfortable, should it not?

    Eastern England was the cradle of the Cromwellians. It has always had this “stout yeoman” Roundhead rebel streak. And Essex is notoriously insurgent

    Purer Anglo Saxon blood?
    Hardly. Look at the West Country with its Independent religion.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    Happy New Year all!

    Half-thinking of whether I should quit my job.

    Might keep it on ice and see how the year goes.

    I changed jobs this year after 13 year in my previous one. Really scary but the right thing to do for me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited December 2023
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
    I drove from Beaune to our house this afternoon, via Pommard, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. The area is ridiculous. Land so valuable you could buy a house, knock it down and sell for more money by planting vines.
    Ooh, that reminds me there’s still some nice wines left over from Christmas.

    Perhaps it’s Dry February this year, cheers!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    IanB2 said:

    I hate New Year, so will be having an early night as usual. But the dog will be up, and he says….


    An early night on new year's eve is one of life's great pleasures, perhaps a privilege of being less young; though I am glad to think of all the people really enjoying themselves. Part of my family will be in Edinburgh.

    I like to listen to the Bach B minor mass on new year's eve, and have a read of the opening of D.L.Sayers detective masterpiece, the Nine Tailors, the action of which begins in a snowy, bleak Lincolnshire at 4.15pm on 31st December 1929. Bliss.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394
    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    I hate New Year, so will be having an early night as usual. But the dog will be up, and he says….


    An early night on new year's eve is one of life's great pleasures, perhaps a privilege of being less young; though I am glad to think of all the people really enjoying themselves. Part of my family will be in Edinburgh.

    I like to listen to the Bach B minor mass on new year's eve, and have a read of the opening of D.L.Sayers detective masterpiece, the Nine Tailors, the action of which begins in a snowy, bleak Lincolnshire at 4.15pm on 31st December 1929. Bliss.
    The last twenty years we have gone to my mother in laws for NY eve, and held a second Christmas. Sadly she died in September, so tonight is the first time we won’t be doing the usual for two decades. Strange times. A bit somber too, but hey the early night will be good!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I am looking forward to 2024.

    Provided it doesn’t turn out to be the end of the world as we know it.
    But right now, I feel fine.

    On Topic, assuming Levido has read the Evil Overlord Rulebook, all we can conclude is that the election isn't planned to be on November 17. The more interesting question is why he wants to plant that date in the minds of Shipman's readership?

    (In passing, "Shipman's readership" is surprisingly satisfying to say. I recommend it.)
    As do I.

    I’m sure our @Leon also feels fine, predicting one global catastrophe after another whilst assuming that his bank account and the walls of his Camden Town bedsit will keep him safe.

    Russia/Ukraine, Israel/Gaza, the US election/civil war, and the fragility of both western democracy and the financial/debt position of western economies and many of their consumers, will make this coming year an exceptionally fragile one.

    I expect that global stock markets are going to lead into the coming year with a good bull runs. But my advice would be to watch closely and always be thinking about the right time to sell.

    We have had a remarkable Santa rally this year both in the US and the UK. This may be a good time to lock in some of that profit into bonds and gilts.
    The NSI fixed rate offer of a couple of months ago was imo the deal of a lifetime
    for low risk investors. I hope all PBers lucky enough to have spare cash did some.
    I locked into a 2027 gilt instead. Capturing 250bps tax free spread over my fixed mortgage. Not bad for uk government credit risk

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yea, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    I get the centre right economics but is the wine growing industry 'woke' ?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Well, its Hogmanay and with the New Year almost upon us here are my predictions for 2024.

    1. There will be an election in November. The Tories and the SNP will lose. Labour will have a modest majority, greatly helped by 20+ seats in Scotland, all taken from the SNP. The loss of seats may well be the end of the road for Yousaf. By the end of the year Rishi will have stood down as an MP and be looking to go back to California.

    2. The economy will do better than current forecasts, growing modestly. There will not be a technical recession but we may come close in the first half of the year.

    3. By the Summer both Russia and Ukraine will be exhausted and some form of messy compromise satisfying no one will be found.

    4. Biden will win the US election, more easily than he did in 2020. The Democrats will also gain the House but may struggle in the Senate. Biden will not complete his second term.

    5. China will have another difficult year with huge debt overhangs in property undermining the tax base of several provinces finances. Growth will slow even further and Xi will compensate by making more bellicose noises over Taiwan but not act.

    So, you all now know where not to put your bets. Good luck all!

    1 - Agreed, although I suspect October. Sunak and Clegg will meet up on some SoCal beach.

    2 - Agreed, although stock markets may not fare so well, looking forward to the next crisis

    3 - possibly. Or we’ll be in the same position next New Year.

    4 - if he’s up against Trump, for sure.

    5 - the fragility of China’s economic situation
    is often overlooked. Sadly its possible implosion doesn’t bode well for the rest of us.

    1. They both prefer NorCal. Poor judgement in my view.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    A

    DavidL said:

    Well, its Hogmanay and with the New Year almost upon us here are my predictions for 2024.

    1. There will be an election in November. The Tories and the SNP will lose. Labour will have a modest majority, greatly helped by 20+ seats in Scotland, all taken from the SNP. The loss of seats may well be the end of the road for Yousaf. By the end of the year Rishi will have stood down as an MP and be looking to go back to California.

    2. The economy will do better than current forecasts, growing modestly. There will not be a technical recession but we may come close in the first half of the year.

    3. By the Summer both Russia and Ukraine will be exhausted and some form of messy compromise satisfying no one will be found.

    4. Biden will win the US election, more easily than he did in 2020. The Democrats will also gain the House but may struggle in the Senate. Biden will not complete his second term.

    5. China will have another difficult year with huge debt overhangs in property undermining the tax base of several provinces finances. Growth will slow even further and Xi will compensate by making more bellicose noises over Taiwan but not act.

    So, you all now know where not to put your bets. Good luck all!

    PB will be having a predictions thread in the next few days.

    The winner of that contest will be winning a bottle of champagne.
    What size? A pint?
    The size of Leon's brain.

    I am joking, it will be a large bottle, metric or
    Limperial depending on the winner's
    preference.
    Can you get Jereboams of champagne?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    I hate New Year, so will be having an early night as usual. But the dog will be up, and he says….


    An early night on new year's eve is one of life's great pleasures, perhaps a privilege of being less young; though I am glad to think of all the people really enjoying themselves. Part of my family will be in Edinburgh.

    I like to listen to the Bach B minor mass on new year's eve, and have a read of the opening of D.L.Sayers detective masterpiece, the Nine Tailors, the action of which begins in a snowy, bleak Lincolnshire at 4.15pm on 31st December 1929. Bliss.
    Oddly enough - I quite often have nodded off to the R4 production of the Nine Tailors on NY eve, then polished off the remainder on NY day. Bit of a tradition now.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    I hate New Year, so will be having an early night as usual. But the dog will be up, and he says….


    An early night on new year's eve is one of life's great pleasures, perhaps a privilege of being less young; though I am glad to think of all the people really enjoying themselves. Part of my family will be in Edinburgh.

    I like to listen to the Bach B minor mass on new year's eve, and have a read of the opening of D.L.Sayers detective masterpiece, the Nine Tailors, the action of which begins in a snowy, bleak Lincolnshire at 4.15pm on 31st December 1929. Bliss.
    The dona nobis pacem is the most sublime conclusion to any work. It never fails to lift my spirits. Here is my favourite version (those baroque trumpets)!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffrsc3wdBt4&pp=ygUYYmFjaCBiIG1pbm9yIG1hc3Mgc3V6dWtp
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    franklyn said:

    Last year marked the bicentenary of the medical journal The Lancet, first published in October 1823. The Lancet was one of the world’s first medical journals, only outranked by the New England Journal Medicine (which dates from 1812). The first editor of The Lancet, the surgeon Thomas Wakley (later Sir Thomas Wakley) took it upon himself to expose frauds and quackery in medical practice.

    Wakley subsequently became a member of parliament, and it was at his instigation that the Medical Act 1858 passed into law, laying the way to the creation of the General Medical Council (GMC). The purpose of the act, set out in the opening sentence of the legislation is to ensure that ‘Persons requiring Medical Aid should be enabled to distinguish qualified from unqualified Practitioners’.

    The problem which the Medical Act of 1858 was intended to solve was not a new one. In 1518, King Henry VIII established the Royal College of Physicians, and in its founding charter gave the College the power to determine who could, and who could not, call themselves a physician.

    In the last twenty years, successive governments, aware of the relentless increase in workload of the NHS, have promised more doctors. A number of new medical schools have been created, but no one seems to have addressed the unendurable pressure of work, the intolerable conditions of service, and declining remuneration. The inevitable result is that doctors retire early, emigrate, choose other careers, or move to the private sector. The number of doctors fails to increase.

    Rather than attend to the obvious solution and take more care of the doctors, the government’s idea has been to flood the NHS with bogus doctors, dressed up with the title Physician Associate. They have no medical qualifications, but seem remarkably keen to ‘have a go’; whether patients appreciate that they are not qualified doctors is open to doubt. Already we are hearing of the inevitable consequences.

    In December 2023, on a conveniently busy day for news, the government sneaked through parliament a change in the GMC’s duties, which placed upon them the duty of registering the Physician Associates. In turn, the GMC has asked the Royal College of Physicians to be responsible for the training of these new ‘gimcracks’. The story has received remarkably little coverage in the press.

    The problems of medical manpower can be solved by giving us the resources to work efficiently; better IT and secretarial support would be a start, together with less managerial interference. The answer isn’t to appoint Potemkin doctors.

    This is somewhat I’ll informed. The PA’s will have degrees and undertake postgraduate training in the role. I agree with the issues around doctor retention, but to attack PA’s is not right. I suppose you don’t think nurses should be able to prescribe drugs, or pharmacists, but suitably qualified nurses and pharmacist do this now, and all pharmacists who graduate from 2025 on will be able to prescribe.
    It’s well worth challenging ways of operating all the time.
    My favourite example is this. During my leukaemia treatment I had bloods taken on a regular basis. Phlebotomists do this all day every day and had no issues. A doctor who had taken my bone marrow sample proceeded to try 5 (yes five!) places to get some peripheral bloods. I know who I wanted to take the blood…
    I agree. I work as part of an MDT with nurses and other paramedical professions. We jointly manage patients and have done for some years. These aren't PAs but are registered professionals with their own professional bodies.

    The problem is not PA's but rather how they are regulated and supervised. I have worked with them in Africa, and it really is no big deal, similarly in America.

    Where @franklyn is right is that using them interchangeably with doctors, and without clear demarcation as to roles and responsibilities is dangerous.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    darkage said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yea, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    I get the centre right economics but is the wine growing industry 'woke' ?
    It depends how you define woke. The definition is getting so wide, thanks to right wing journalists, that simply wanting to be nice to foreigners counts as woke. The wine industry is very international.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Betfair odds, next US president

    Trump 2.48 / 2.5
    Biden 3.45 / 3.5
    Haley 9.8 / 10
    Newsom 14.5 / 15.5
    Kenendy 30 / 32

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics/usa-presidential-election-2024/election-winner-betting-1.176878927
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
    I drove from Beaune to our house this afternoon, via Pommard, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. The area is ridiculous. Land so valuable you could buy a house, knock it down and sell for more money by planting vines.
    Ooh, that reminds me there’s still some nice wines left over from Christmas.

    Perhaps it’s Dry February this year, cheers!
    January only starts with 12th night. Until then it's acceptable to consume Christmas leftovers!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    There are openly gay people on my plane. And obvious Muslims in Business Class

    Wtf. What was the point of the British Empire???
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    Before I get banned. That was a joke
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    Bordeaux’s wine industry was founded by the nouveau riche. Very different from the hard working sons of the soil in Burgundy. Although sadly the cote de Beaune in particular is getting a bit nouv since prices went up into the stratosphere. A winemaker from Pouilly-Loche (not exactly cheap) was complaining to me that the growers of meursault are getting so *gesture of finger on nose* that they wouldn’t even do the traditional bottle for bottle swap among vignerons.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    Etihad does a very moreish dry rose champagne as you board

    Ooooooh
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
    I drove from Beaune to our house this afternoon, via Pommard, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. The area is ridiculous. Land so valuable you could buy a house, knock it down and sell for more money by planting vines.
    Presumably the soil won't be great with all that builders rubble and the like?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,628
    edited December 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Betfair odds, next US president

    Trump 2.48 / 2.5
    Biden 3.45 / 3.5
    Haley 9.8 / 10
    Newsom 14.5 / 15.5
    Kenendy 30 / 32

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics/usa-presidential-election-2024/election-winner-betting-1.176878927

    A pedant writes that isn't the next President market, it is the market on the winner of the next election.

    Kamala Harris could be the next President but might not win that market if she becomes POTUS via the XXVth.

    Edit - XXVth? What have I just done there to so many languages?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

    Macron has been good for France

    Probably the most capable European leader of the last decade or so

    In the end a lot smarter than Merkel and miles better than any Brit since Blair
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
    I drove from Beaune to our house this afternoon, via Pommard, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. The area is ridiculous. Land so valuable you could buy a house, knock it down and sell for more money by planting vines.
    Presumably the soil won't be great with all that builders rubble and the like?
    Builders rubble is actually pretty good terroir.

    There are large swathes of totally shit land planted with vines (and old ones at that) that only survive economically because of the village name.

    Far better to get a decent wine from a good Châlonnais village like Mercurey or Givry, where only the quality land is bevined.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    France is still seriously imperilled by its demography and migration patterns, however
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

    Macron has been good for France

    Probably the most capable European leader of the last decade or so

    In the end a lot smarter than Merkel and miles better than any Brit since Blair
    Is France notably better off?
    I would not judge him overly successful in international affairs, although any French President is kind of up against it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

    Macron has been good for France

    Probably the most capable European leader of the last decade or so

    In the end a lot smarter than Merkel and miles better than any Brit since Blair
    Yebbut for a French president he's surely an internationalist


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

    Bordeaux is also flat or gently sloping. The other geographical distinction you can make in France is flat = Le Pen, steep = others.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    edited December 2023
    TimS said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

    Bordeaux is also flat or gently sloping. The other geographical distinction you can make in France is flat = Le Pen, steep = others.
    I see that

    eta - just as Essex is flat and the Cotswolds hilly (re Brex*)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    In France, the right soil type (ironically, usually poorer soil for general agriculture) can make a number of the locals into millionaires from wine.
    I drove from Beaune to our house this afternoon, via Pommard, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. The area is ridiculous. Land so valuable you could buy a house, knock it down and sell for more money by planting vines.
    Presumably the soil won't be great with all that builders rubble and the like?
    Builders rubble is actually pretty good terroir.

    There are large swathes of totally shit land planted with vines (and old ones at that) that only survive economically because of the village name.

    Far better to get a decent wine from a good Châlonnais village like Mercurey or Givry, where only the quality land is bevined.
    My secret vice is a particular Le Gros Plante du Pays Nantais which I gather is considered terrible stuff and rarely exported. But I suspect it supports various non-entity exurbs of Nantes.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Happy new year everyone.

    The main change for me in 2023 was moving to a situation where my family have two homes, a flat in the south east of the UK and an old wooden house in Finland. We have been travelling between the two. The total cost of all travel, including working one day a week in the office in London and flying to and from Finland is less than an annual season ticket to travel in to London every day from our house in England cost me in 2014. The schooling and quality of life and overall social system is far better in Finland but the weather and landscape is in my view preferable in England despite Finland being beautiful in its own way. The total cost of the two homes combined was less than a family house in England and the running costs are manageable but I shouldn't pretend that it wasn't all basically made possible by inheritance. The main purpose of living like this was to put my son in to the Finnish school system which has worked out well but obviously it comes with other challenges.

    Whilst I have been negative about Covid and mass immigration a lot the main positive of these two factors was a shift to remote working that made all this possible, I've got colleagues online in Egypt and Nicaragua. It is minus 15 here in Finland and I have been out shovelling snow. About to go to buy some beers before the 9pm licensing cut off.

    How v interesting.
    Can we ask how you managed the visa situation?

    My wife and I have decided to do another 12-18 months in New York. The kids are happy here - happier than they were in London but admittedly it was a Covid-blighted London.

    I miss the UK and while I fiercely love certain things about the US, there are other things I don’t think I could ever totally reconcile myself to.

    It‘a hard being an immigrant. This is my third country of residence. Where, really, is home?
    Quite complex and with some possibly unresolved grey areas... but in summary we are dual EU nationals so the issues fall away. It is a bit different for us because my wife is Finnish and very rooted here. I did work out that I could never completely 'leave' England for various reasons largely to do with family and work so we came up with this solution. I've learned to be ok with travelling around and being on the move whereas my wife and son prefer to spend longer periods in each place. My son now has two sets of friends, one in England and one in Finland, two lots of birthday parties to attend etc so a lot of forward planning needed. In Finland they are not that worried about him missing school the way they were in England. Most of the year the flights on Ryanair are about £30 each way.
    Sounds like a nice arrangement, I envy you your EU passports. 🇪🇺
    Yeah, I realise it is an enviable arrangement and don't take it for granted. Sorting it out took many years and cost thousands of pounds though - just to continue the rights we had in early 2016.
    Out of interest do you speak Finnish? It's supposedly a hard language to learn.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Leon said:

    Before I get banned. That was a joke

    We thought it was just the complimentary champagne.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    France is still seriously imperilled by its demography and migration patterns, however

    There were two presidential opinion polls last year which gave figures for the second round, and both had Le Pen winning by around 55/45. (It was curious that there were only two of them all year).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Well, its Hogmanay and with the New Year almost upon us here are my predictions for 2024.

    1. There will be an election in November. The Tories and the SNP will lose. Labour will have a modest majority, greatly helped by 20+ seats in Scotland, all taken from the SNP. The loss of seats may well be the end of the road for Yousaf. By the end of the year Rishi will have stood down as an MP and be looking to go back to California.

    2. The economy will do better than current forecasts, growing modestly. There will not be a technical recession but we may come close in the first half of the year.

    3. By the Summer both Russia and Ukraine will be exhausted and some form of messy compromise satisfying no one will be found.

    4. Biden will win the US election, more easily than he did in 2020. The Democrats will also gain the House but may struggle in the Senate. Biden will not complete his second term.

    5. China will have another difficult year with huge debt overhangs in property undermining the tax base of several provinces finances. Growth will slow even further and Xi will compensate by making more bellicose noises over Taiwan but not act.

    So, you all now know where not to put your bets. Good luck all!

    1 - Agreed, although I suspect October. Sunak and Clegg will meet up on some SoCal beach.

    2 - Agreed, although stock markets may not fare so well, looking forward to the next crisis

    3 - possibly. Or we’ll be in the same position next New Year.

    4 - if he’s up against Trump, for sure.

    5 - the fragility of China’s economic situation
    is often overlooked. Sadly its possible implosion doesn’t bode well for the rest of us.

    1. They both prefer NorCal. Poor judgement in my view.
    Technically, San Francisco is in Southern California.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,039

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258

    Leon said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    I’ve never heard this but it has a weird smack of total bollocks

    "Right-wing granite, left-wing limestone" André Siegfried's famously claimed in 1913.

    The father of electoral geography argued that the soil had a lasting political impact, one that still pops its head in modern French politics.

    A few tweets on conservatism and soils.”

    https://x.com/valen10francois/status/1569699300468301826?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    My immediate thought is: Cornwall, granite, mildly left; Glos, limestone, definitely right

    Indeed the whole limestone belt across England is Tory

    Well, I would suggest a variation on this. The electoral geography of France definitely follows geology. But it’s more complicated than limestone left granite right.

    Limestone ridges tend to have poorish but well drained soil suitable for viticulture. In the presidentials they do well with Macron. Our commune in Saône et Loire voted something mad like 80% Macron. Granite is not very productive but suits cattle rearing. Just as in Britain, cattle country is conservative with a small c. In the presidential it scored well with les Républicains.

    But Le Pen does well in lowland and coal bearing geology. Not granite. So do the far left. Industrial geology.

    Look at the electoral map for Saône et Loire overlay geology. Macron on limestone, Républicains on granite (but not Beaujolais, which is Macron because its vines and orchards), Le Pen in Bresse.

    Translate to Britain. Le Pen’s Anglo cousins in the coal-bearing uplands and alluvial lowlands of the East. Traditional Tories and orange bookers in the granite and metamorphic West Country. Lib Dems of of the post-2016 sort in the limestone regions of the downs, Surrey Hills and Wessex.
    I think in England it may be simpler

    Limestone areas tend to have more attractive towns and villages - because of the plentiful golden stone. That makes for more expensive houses and richer citizens = Tories
    Rich rural people in Britain are still largely Tory and Lib Dem. Poor people are mainly Labour with some Boris Tories and kippers. So yes, that probably makes a difference.

    France also has viticulture as a cultural phenomenon. That’s still a minority thing in Britain. Viti areas in most of the continent are economically centre-right, culturally centre-left. Woke capitalists. Macronists. Free democrats and CDUers. Ciudadanes. Lib Dems.

    Watch as areas of Southern England become meaningfully viticultural. Sussex Weald, Kent downs, Hants downs, Surrey Hills, Crouch valley of Essex. Watch them go inexorably yellow.
    And yet in the last French election I was amazed at how some of the richest, most venerated wine areas of Bordeaux voted solidly Le Pen

    What’s that about?!
    The Somewheres versus Anywheres distinction might be relevant. LePen is a Somewhere, Macron an Anywhere for example.

    Macron has been good for France

    Probably the most capable European leader of the last decade or so

    In the end a lot smarter than Merkel and miles better than any Brit since Blair
    Is France notably better off?
    I would not judge him overly successful in international affairs, although any French President is kind of up against it.
    I was factoring in the dark French situation. A very proud nation in permanent secular cultural decline - see the Sahel, and the ever diminishing “francophonie” - plus some really negative migration patterns

    Macron has had to work with that. And I think he’s done really quite well. Restoring some French prestige. Exploiting Brexit cleverly to advance Paris over London and French interests in the EU

    He’s a super smart pragmatist. I imagine le pen will win next time
  • Leon said:

    Before I get banned. That was a joke

    [tumbleweed]
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    I presume the out of date stereotypes related to the portrayal of the Welsh in Zulu. Surely they were not *all* choristers.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,394

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Arguably Hot Fuzz counts.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    Apropos of whatever Bordeaux wine is surely fucked by global warming. And probably burgundy. And Rioja is entirely fucked
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
    The Khyber is genius.

    They are great period pieces if viewed in the right spirit.

    More seriously, I would recommend "the four feathers" 1939 version, though the 2002 was good too. Also "the life and death of Colonel Blimp"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    My dad’s favourite film. Zulu

    He used to take us kids to see it about every 6 months. We’d probably be taken into care now
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    I presume the out of date stereotypes related to the portrayal of the Welsh in Zulu. Surely they were not *all* choristers.
    No, we still all walk the valleys and the coast close harmony singing.
  • viewcode said:

    Predictions for 2024

    1) A THING WILL HAPPEN

    • A thing will happen
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • PBers will post twitter links to other people's tweets about it
    • PBers will post links to powerpoints, pdfs or word documents
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    2) SOMEBODY WILL SAY SOMETHING
    • Somebody will say something
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • It will be hotly debated
    • PB will conclude that it is good and free speech is cited
    • The something will be praised and the somebody will keep their job
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    3) SOMEBODY ELSE WILL SAY SOMETHING ELSE
    • Somebody else will say something else
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • It will be hotly debated
    • PB will conclude that it is bad and "it must be offensive/wrong" or similar will be cited
    • The something else will be derided and the somebody else will lose their job
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    4) A RUMOUR WILL BE RUMOURED
    • A rumour will be rumoured
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • It will be hotly debated
    • PB will conclude that it is true or false on absolutely no evidence
    • PB will say sagely "in my judgement..." despite no evidence other than the rumour
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    5) SOMEBODY WILL POST A PICTURE OF A LITTLE DOG
    • Somebody will post a picture of a little dog
    • It will depict scale
    • I will be happy
    Here is a picture of a little dog, with two other little dogs for scale. These are Essie, Saga and Cadi, and they are litter sisters.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Leon said:

    There are openly gay people on my plane. And obvious Muslims in Business Class

    Wtf. What was the point of the British Empire???

    So that one of its former protectorates could provide an airline to provide decent champagne on your flight right now?
  • Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    They showed it on ITV3 yesterday, followed by "Carry On At Your Convenience". Today, they showed "Carry On Matron" and "Carry on Up The Jungle".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    edited December 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
    The Khyber is genius.

    They are great period pieces if viewed in the right spirit.

    More seriously, I would recommend "the four feathers" 1939 version, though the 2002 was good too. Also "the life and death of Colonel Blimp"
    Hitler’s favourite movie was a proto-Zulu pro-British empire epic called “The Lives of a Bengal Lancer”

    True story
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    Two of the finest films of all time.
    Makes me wish I had a telly.
    Almost.
  • Leon said:

    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    My dad’s favourite film. Zulu

    He used to take us kids to see it about every 6 months. We’d probably be taken into care now
    Zulu actually holds up pretty well, even by today's standards.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
    The Khyber is genius.

    They are great period pieces if viewed in the right spirit.

    More seriously, I would recommend "the four feathers" 1939 version, though the 2002 was good too. Also "the life and death of Colonel Blimp"
    Four feathers was one of the first films I saw around 1950. Unforgettable … though I was at an impressionable age then

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited December 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
    The Khyber is genius.

    They are great period pieces if viewed in the right spirit.

    More seriously, I would recommend "the four feathers" 1939 version, though the 2002 was good too. Also "the life and death of Colonel Blimp"
    I have not seen the Four Feathers.

    Colonel Blimp I saw some time ago and didn’t really “get”. Also not much fussed by A Matter of Life and Death. But (like Scorsese), the Red Shoes is one of my favourite films.

    As for comedy period pieces, I’m Alright Jack (1959) has aged pretty well.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    edited December 2023
    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    darkage said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm still calling the UK general election for 2 May.

    Happy New Year to all on PB 👍🍺

    Do we have a PB poster of the year?

    I'm going for quality of post over quantity - darkage and Fishing for me.
    Thanks for this Stocky, very flattering.
    I have particularly appreciated posts this year from @Dura_Ace for comic value; kle4 for written style; Leon on AI/Aliens.

    Thanks to those who run the site, I've not posted that much this year but it is always good to know it is here - and that there is a remaining part of the internet where people can respectfully disagree with each other.

    Without faux humility, whilst welcome I fear you do flatter me a little - if I were to take a stab at my most prominent writing characteristic I would probably plump for thoroughness over style.
    You wrote some very good posts recently which articulated very complex things very concisely.

    I was always being 'praised' for being 'thorough'. I then switched to writing short sentences. Cutting out anything superfluous. It is something I started practicing on PB but now do it at work. Writing emails a couple of lines long that convey the point immediately.
    Change all the adjectives to "very". Remove all the "very"s.
    'I was always being '' for being ''. I then switched to writing sentences. Cutting out anything . It is something I started practicing on PB but now do it at work. Writing emails a couple of lines that convey the point immediately.'
    Much better! :)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    A twitter thread on the problems Rishi and the Tories face as the next election comes into view.

    https://twitter.com/GavinBarwell/status/1741505388321644695

    Being blunt a 1997 result for the Tories looks like a great result for them and way better than I think they are going to get.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
    The Khyber is genius.

    They are great period pieces if viewed in the right spirit.

    More seriously, I would recommend "the four feathers" 1939 version, though the 2002 was good too. Also "the life and death of Colonel Blimp"
    I have not seen the Four Feathers.

    Colonel Blimp I saw some time ago and didn’t really “get”. Also not much fussed by A Matter of Life and Death. But (like Scorsese), the Red Shoes is one of my favourite films.

    As for comedy period pieces, I’m Alright Jack (1959) has aged pretty well.

    Last of the Mohicans, obvs.

    A fine film.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258
    Being British is like being a Roman in about 437AD
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068

    viewcode said:

    Predictions for 2024

    1) A THING WILL HAPPEN

    • A thing will happen
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • PBers will post twitter links to other people's tweets about it
    • PBers will post links to powerpoints, pdfs or word documents
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    2) SOMEBODY WILL SAY SOMETHING
    • Somebody will say something
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • It will be hotly debated
    • PB will conclude that it is good and free speech is cited
    • The something will be praised and the somebody will keep their job
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    3) SOMEBODY ELSE WILL SAY SOMETHING ELSE
    • Somebody else will say something else
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • It will be hotly debated
    • PB will conclude that it is bad and "it must be offensive/wrong" or similar will be cited
    • The something else will be derided and the somebody else will lose their job
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    4) A RUMOUR WILL BE RUMOURED
    • A rumour will be rumoured
    • PBers will post twitter links to it
    • It will be hotly debated
    • PB will conclude that it is true or false on absolutely no evidence
    • PB will say sagely "in my judgement..." despite no evidence other than the rumour
    • Nobody will bother to check whether the words or the numbers are true
    5) SOMEBODY WILL POST A PICTURE OF A LITTLE DOG
    • Somebody will post a picture of a little dog
    • It will depict scale
    • I will be happy
    Here is a picture of a little dog, with two other little dogs for scale. These are Essie, Saga and Cadi, and they are litter sisters.
    Awww! (smiles)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    Being British is like being a Roman in about 437AD

    Pretty much.
    Someone needs to write the British “Radetsky March”.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    Leon said:

    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    My dad’s favourite film. Zulu

    He used to take us kids to see it about every 6 months. We’d probably be taken into care now
    Zulu actually holds up pretty well, even by today's standards.
    Michael Caine's first big role.
    For a politics angle, Mangosutho Buthulezi, long time Zulu PM, plays his own great-grandfather.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708

    Leon said:

    Being British is like being a Roman in about 437AD

    Pretty much.
    Someone needs to write the British “Radetsky March”.
    W already have Pomp and Circumstance
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    My dad’s favourite film. Zulu

    He used to take us kids to see it about every 6 months. We’d probably be taken into care now
    Zulu actually holds up pretty well, even by today's standards.
    Michael Caine's first big role.
    For a politics angle, Mangosutho Buthulezi, long time Zulu PM, plays his own great-grandfather.
    Credits actually say, “Introducing Michael Caine”.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited December 2023
    My prediction for the Tory share at the next general election is that they'll get something very similar to the 31.4% that John Major polled in 1997, and the LDs will get about 14%. But I'm not confident about making forecasts for the other parties.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,258

    Leon said:

    Being British is like being a Roman in about 437AD

    Pretty much.
    Someone needs to write the British “Radetsky March”.
    Americans are more like romans in about 336AD

    You can see the signs of decline. Ominous signals. And yet the power of the Empire remains immense. And glorious villas are still built by the wealthy
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    slade said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Ch 4 have been doing a series of classic British films. Yesterday I watched Laurence of Arabia and today Zulu. I was intrigued by the preliminary commentary that the films displayed out of date stereotypes and language. In the case of Zulu it also warned against nudity. In Zulu? But of course all the Zulus, both men and women, had nothing on above the waist.
    My dad’s favourite film. Zulu

    He used to take us kids to see it about every 6 months. We’d probably be taken into care now
    Zulu actually holds up pretty well, even by today's standards.
    Michael Caine's first big role.
    For a politics angle, Mangosutho Buthulezi, long time Zulu PM, plays his own great-grandfather.
    ! Yeah, saw that on Ch4 a couple of hours ago

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I have rigged up a projector at home and am working through various unseen (by me) classics.

    So far, Mean Streets (1973) and To Be Or Not To Be (1942). Both deserved classics.

    Zulu (1964) was much better than I thought it would be. I wonder if readers can recommend other “British Westerns”.

    Have you seen "Carry on up the Khyber"?
    I have not seen any Carry On film since the early 90s.
    I’m not overly keen to exhume them, to be honest.
    The Khyber is genius.

    They are great period pieces if viewed in the right spirit.

    More seriously, I would recommend "the four feathers" 1939 version, though the 2002 was good too. Also "the life and death of Colonel Blimp"
    Hitler’s favourite movie was a proto-Zulu pro-British empire epic called “The Lives of a Bengal Lancer”

    True story
    Howard Hughes's favorite film was "Ice Station Zebra".

    "Ice Station Zebra" has the same plot as "A Devil Wears Prada". An ingenue is given a mission that they dislike, is told off in an epic speech by a non-British actor playing a supercilious man with a British accent, is betrayed by a comrade but still wins the day, leaving with what they came to get.
This discussion has been closed.