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Another difficult Tory by-election defence – politicalbetting.com

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  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited December 2023
    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    32k+ people voted for that moron Peter Bone? This country is indeed going to the dogs. I mean, jeez.

    They voted for the Conservative candidate.

    Wellingborough isn't a seat Labour can take without thousands and thousands of Conservative voters sitting on their hands.

    But, I expect them to do so.
    Wellingborough voted Lab in 97, I think?

    The sort of seat which votes massively Conservative when Lab is unelectable. Not massively wealthy. Not maasively anything, really. Middle England redux. Massively motivated to keep the liked of Corbyn, or even Miliband out. But few obvious reasons to vote the Tory candidate in if Labour are sane.
    Has the railway through Wellingborough been electrified yet?
    The electrification of Northamptonshire

    We could turn it into an opera if we all pulled together as a team.
    I'm now seeing the South Park 'Philip Glass' :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPsv00Caag
    Pause

    Pause

    I like Philip Glass. :(

    (mopes)
    I'd have thought trains were more Steve Reich.

    Nothing wrong with Philip Glass. He doesn't fill the bar at the concert hall, unlike some other modern rubbish...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    dixiedean said:

    My flight tomorrow has been cancelled.
    So my rebook has given me eight hours in Amsterdam.
    Shall I do the traditional PB thing and ask for recommendations to while away those unexpected short notice hours?

    probably gives you 4 hours or so in Amsterdam - give yourself at least 2 and a half hours to get back from Amsterdam and get back into the airport - security can be a mare at Schiphol and its bad enough when you have priority...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    dixiedean said:

    My flight tomorrow has been cancelled.
    So my rebook has given me eight hours in Amsterdam.
    Shall I do the traditional PB thing and ask for recommendations to while away those unexpected short notice hours?

    I hear heroin and microwave rice are both fab on the third go.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786
    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    32k+ people voted for that moron Peter Bone? This country is indeed going to the dogs. I mean, jeez.

    They voted for the Conservative candidate.

    Wellingborough isn't a seat Labour can take without thousands and thousands of Conservative voters sitting on their hands.

    But, I expect them to do so.
    Wellingborough voted Lab in 97, I think?

    The sort of seat which votes massively Conservative when Lab is unelectable. Not massively wealthy. Not maasively anything, really. Middle England redux. Massively motivated to keep the liked of Corbyn, or even Miliband out. But few obvious reasons to vote the Tory candidate in if Labour are sane.
    And in 2001 too. Was an ultra marginal both times.
    Incidentally. I didn't realise Bone only became an MP in 2005. I thought he was one of those who'd always been there.
    He looks like he's always been there.

    But 2005 was actually quite a long time ago now.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    32k+ people voted for that moron Peter Bone? This country is indeed going to the dogs. I mean, jeez.

    They voted for the Conservative candidate.

    Wellingborough isn't a seat Labour can take without thousands and thousands of Conservative voters sitting on their hands.

    But, I expect them to do so.
    Wellingborough voted Lab in 97, I think?

    The sort of seat which votes massively Conservative when Lab is unelectable. Not massively wealthy. Not maasively anything, really. Middle England redux. Massively motivated to keep the liked of Corbyn, or even Miliband out. But few obvious reasons to vote the Tory candidate in if Labour are sane.
    Has the railway through Wellingborough been electrified yet?
    Yes it has. Trains to Corby via Wellingborough and Kettering are now electrified.

    Corby is one of the few stations to reopen twice. It was originally closed in 1966. Then reopened in around 1987 as a branch from Kettering. That didn't work so it closed. Subsequently it has reopened and has two trains an hour from London.
    I did not know that. Good info.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    ydoethur said:

    Maybe instead of non-criminal law silks grandiosely announcing their refusal to prosecute certain types of crime, they should just concentrate on not derailing murder trials with contemptuous Twitter outbursts.

    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1737546980912459920

    That's foxed him.
    Beat me to it
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    ohnotnow said:

    viewcode said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    32k+ people voted for that moron Peter Bone? This country is indeed going to the dogs. I mean, jeez.

    They voted for the Conservative candidate.

    Wellingborough isn't a seat Labour can take without thousands and thousands of Conservative voters sitting on their hands.

    But, I expect them to do so.
    Wellingborough voted Lab in 97, I think?

    The sort of seat which votes massively Conservative when Lab is unelectable. Not massively wealthy. Not maasively anything, really. Middle England redux. Massively motivated to keep the liked of Corbyn, or even Miliband out. But few obvious reasons to vote the Tory candidate in if Labour are sane.
    Has the railway through Wellingborough been electrified yet?
    The electrification of Northamptonshire

    We could turn it into an opera if we all pulled together as a team.
    I'm now seeing the South Park 'Philip Glass' :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPsv00Caag
    Pause

    Pause

    I like Philip Glass. :(

    (mopes)
    I also am a fan of Philip "One Tune" Glass.
    One note... :)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know what Peter Bone was supposed to have done? An ill judged seduction of a nubile young secretary seems pretty unlikely

    Waved his bone in someone's face.
    Allegedly. He denied it. And bullying.
    The Committee thought otherwise.
    Sounds ridiculous even for a Tory. Sounds like something Rik Mayall might have written. Do know we anything about the complainant?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    kle4 said:

    Rishi is utterly useless. A wet wipe

    Wet wipes are far from useless. Especially if someone has shat themselves, as this government seems to often.
    They are building blocks of a fatberg....
  • Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    32k+ people voted for that moron Peter Bone? This country is indeed going to the dogs. I mean, jeez.

    They voted for the Conservative candidate.

    Wellingborough isn't a seat Labour can take without thousands and thousands of Conservative voters sitting on their hands.

    But, I expect them to do so.
    Wellingborough voted Lab in 97, I think?

    The sort of seat which votes massively Conservative when Lab is unelectable. Not massively wealthy. Not maasively anything, really. Middle England redux. Massively motivated to keep the liked of Corbyn, or even Miliband out. But few obvious reasons to vote the Tory candidate in if Labour are sane.
    Has the railway through Wellingborough been electrified yet?
    Yes it has. Trains to Corby via Wellingborough and Kettering are now electrified.

    Corby is one of the few stations to reopen twice. It was originally closed in 1966. Then reopened in around 1987 as a branch from Kettering. That didn't work so it closed. Subsequently it has reopened and has two trains an hour from London.
    D'oh! Of course it's been electrified - I even went to Corby back in March!

    I was actually thinking of the line through Market Harborough and beyond!
    No sign of that being electrified. I believe it was proposed once.

    Maybe Keir and Rachel will electrify it to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield. But LAB's record on electrifying railways isn't brilliant 😡
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited December 2023
    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
  • Anybody planning to fly with Qatar Airways?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI-qYSDgg38&t=1s
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786
    Anyways.
    Last day in the office before Christmas, and reflection on what we have achieved in the year: these are not people I have known for anything like as long but whom I am still lucky to know and work with. O-o-o is on and timesheet is done. And you know, I'm lucky enough to quite like my job.
    Then annual night out with three friends I have known for over 30 years. The fact that we should do this more often doesn't devalue that we do it at all.
    And then arrive home to find the snapfish calendar of family photos I'd ordered for my parents has arrived.
    And also the news that my brother-in-law's partner is going to be induced tomorrow and it looks like a new niece before Christmas.

    "See how we yawn, at your bile and your scorn
    It's a beautiful day, peace on earth has been played
    Make a noise with your toys, and ignore the killjoys
    Cos it's cliched to be cynical at Christmas"
    https://youtu.be/cxqQtUQErhQ?si=2FSz2Kljcp7I7QAn


    Which is all
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    To those it may concern. Some good news at last.....

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2023-12-21/

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    This of course places teachers in a difficult situation. Even more so if it is a TA or lunch supervisor. They'll have no idea what the home situation is. And often will be asked not to disclose to teachers the student doesn't trust.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    edited December 2023
    Cancelled
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Roger said:

    To those it may concern. Some good news at last.....

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2023-12-21/

    Cheap mortgages and quickie visas for French second homes was my summary.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    Like when doctors were required to tell parents their daughters were on the pill. Not a good idea at all.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    Roger said:

    To those it may concern. Some good news at last.....

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2023-12-21/

    Cheap mortgages and quickie visas for French second homes was my summary.
    90 day rule over for French home owners leading to (when Sunak & Co bite the dust) something like free movment
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    Roger said:

    To those it may concern. Some good news at last.....

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2023-12-21/

    Michelle Mone's 12 days of Christmas?

    "On the first day of Christmas my true love sent to me
    A contract for a bunch of PPE...."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    This of course places teachers in a difficult situation. Even more so if it is a TA or lunch supervisor. They'll have no idea what the home situation is. And often will be asked not to disclose to teachers the student doesn't trust.
    It's for now only guidance, and this is I think only a draft out for consultation.

    The better managed schools will already have their own guidance which takes these issues more seriously.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Roger said:

    To those it may concern. Some good news at last.....

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2023-12-21/

    Michelle Mone's 12 days of Christmas?

    "On the first day of Christmas my true love sent to me
    A contract for a bunch of PPE...."
    This one looked dodgy… did anything come of it?

    https://www.time1075.net/173289-2-upminster-company-vip-ppe-contracts/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    Roger said:

    To those it may concern. Some good news at last.....

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2023-12-21/

    Michelle Mone's 12 days of Christmas?

    "On the first day of Christmas my true love sent to me
    A contract for a bunch of PPE...."
    ....couldn't they send her to Rwanda instead?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4681384/Michelle-Mone-puts-seven-bed-luxury-villa-sale.html
  • HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    Not in her case. Isn't she coached by Rishi?

    Rishi's cunning new plan to win back voters in the redwall? Playing chess with under 10s in the No 10 garden and telling them where they are going wrong?
    I play chess competitively, in leagues and in tournaments. I recently set a new personal "best" when I lost to an 8-year-old (previous "best" was losing to a 10-year-old).
    The following morning before the next round he showed me, very politely, where I had gone wrong.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April
    presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    Bit of a logical leap there by the Guardian (or the pressure group).

    39%/37% of young adults being understandably nervous about disclosing a major personal decision to their families does not in any way imply those individuals are “at risk of harm”
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Roger said:

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know what Peter Bone was supposed to have done? An ill judged seduction of a nubile young secretary seems pretty unlikely

    Waved his bone in someone's face.
    Allegedly. He denied it. And bullying.
    The Committee thought otherwise.
    Sounds ridiculous even for a Tory. Sounds like something Rik Mayall might have written. Do know we anything about the complainant?
    He was very annoyed and upset!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907

    Roger said:

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know what Peter Bone was supposed to have done? An ill judged seduction of a nubile young secretary seems pretty unlikely

    Waved his bone in someone's face.
    Allegedly. He denied it. And bullying.
    The Committee thought otherwise.
    Sounds ridiculous even for a Tory. Sounds like something Rik Mayall might have written. Do know we anything about the complainant?
    He was very annoyed and upset!
    Ah! it was a 'HE'. So not something that Rik Mayall would have written then.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    edited December 2023

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the relevant combatant commander would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so. (FWIW the chain is from the President to the SecDef to the combatant commander but I’ve ignored that link on the assumption that SecDef would be a Trump appointment)

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited December 2023

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
    Because the order has been given by the CiC and will be executed in good faith.

    Equally, at least almost 50% will be on board with Trump.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    edited December 2023

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will
    be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
    Because the order has been given by the CiC and will be executed in good faith.

    Equally, at least almost 50% will be on board with Trump.
    It wouldn’t have been given within the chain of command. Within the military protocols exist for a reason.

    If the President, for example, personally ordered a Lieutenant to arrest President Obama then I would be stunned if the Lieutenant did not seek guidance from his CO. And so on until it was escalated to the combatant commander (a 4* rank).

    You are simply making an alarmist assertion based on a faulty understanding of the way the military works.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    edited December 2023
    An interesting thing that hadn't occured to me before. Because of the Greek alphabet being indecipherable to non Greeks English is ubiquitous. It is virtually a first language. All announcements in museums and on transport are spoken in English and Greek. Even the Restaurants have an English and Greek name.

    It reminds me of a Japanese girl I met in France who wrote a poscard home. All squiggles until the last line which said 'JAPAN' I asked her why and she said otherwise it wouldn't get out of France
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April
    presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    Bit of a logical leap there by the Guardian (or the pressure group).

    39%/37% of young adults being understandably nervous about disclosing a major personal decision to their families does not in any way imply those individuals are “at risk of harm”
    So you would out a gay child to their parents without their consent: indeed, against their expressed wish?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know what Peter Bone was supposed to have done? An ill judged seduction of a nubile young secretary seems pretty unlikely

    Waved his bone in someone's face.
    Allegedly. He denied it. And bullying.
    The Committee thought otherwise.
    Sounds ridiculous even for a Tory. Sounds like something Rik Mayall might have written. Do know we anything about the complainant?
    He was very annoyed and upset!
    Ah! it was a 'HE'. So not something that Rik Mayall would have written then.
    If I recall correctly, an episode of the "New Statesman" involved blackmailing a gay MP. Although it was written by Laurence Marks and Maurice Gran.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will
    be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
    Because the order has been given by the CiC and will be executed in good faith.

    Equally, at least almost 50% will be on board with Trump.
    It wouldn’t have been given within the chain of command. Within the military protocols exist for a reason.

    If the President, for example, personally ordered a Lieutenant to arrest President Obama then I would be stunned if the Lieutenant did not seek guidance from his CO. And so on until it was escalated to the combatant commander (a 4* rank).

    You are simply making an alarmist assertion based on a faulty understanding of the way the military works.
    I may be wrong here, but I though POTUS could do that. In the UK, the PM cannot give military orders: every instruction (except one?[1]) has to go thru the top-level military folk and the PM isn't in the chain of command. UK troops don't salute the PM (am I wrong here?) but US troops do.

    [1] Weirdly, I think the PM can order a nuke launch without going thru a general or whatever
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will
    be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
    Because the order has been given by the CiC and will be executed in good faith.

    Equally, at least almost 50% will be on board with Trump.
    It wouldn’t have been given within the chain of command. Within the military protocols exist for a reason.

    If the President, for example, personally ordered a Lieutenant to arrest President Obama then I would be stunned if the Lieutenant did not seek guidance from his CO. And so on until it was escalated to the combatant commander (a 4* rank).

    You are simply making an alarmist assertion based on a faulty understanding of the way the military works.
    I may be wrong here, but I though POTUS could do that. In the UK, the PM cannot give military orders: every instruction (except one?[1]) has to go thru the top-level military folk and the PM isn't in the chain of command. UK troops don't salute the PM (am I wrong here?) but US troops do.

    [1] Weirdly, I think the PM can order a nuke launch without going thru a general or whatever
    Scratch that: I've read your points above. Does the POTUS->SecDef->Theater commander chain mean that Trump cannot issue an order to, say, a Private?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April
    presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...

    Bit of a logical leap there by the Guardian (or the pressure group).

    39%/37% of young adults being understandably nervous about disclosing a major personal decision to their families does not in any way imply those individuals are “at risk of harm”
    So you would out a gay child to their parents without their consent: indeed, against their expressed wish?
    That’s not what I was saying.

    I was saying the argument was structurally flawed.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will
    be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
    Because the order has been given by the CiC and will be executed in good faith.

    Equally, at least almost 50% will be on board with Trump.
    It wouldn’t have been given within the chain of command. Within the military protocols exist for a reason.

    If the President, for example, personally ordered a Lieutenant to arrest President Obama then I would be stunned if the Lieutenant did not seek guidance from his CO. And so on until it was escalated to the combatant commander (a 4* rank).

    You are simply making an alarmist assertion based on a faulty understanding of the way the military works.

    I may be wrong here, but I though POTUS could do that. In the UK, the PM cannot give military orders: every instruction (except one?[1]) has to go thru the top-level military folk and the PM isn't in the chain of command. UK troops don't salute the PM (am I wrong here?) but US troops do.

    [1] Weirdly, I think the PM can order a nuke launch without going thru a general or whatever
    Scratch that: I've read your points above. Does the POTUS->SecDef->Theater commander chain mean that Trump cannot issue an order to, say, a Private?
    He could issue an order, but if it was controversial then I would expect that guidance would be sought. No private would take the flak.

    In the example above I would expect Obama to comply but by the time he arrived in custody it would be escalated.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,706
    NEW HAMPSHIRE PRIMARY - SAINT ANSELM COLLEGE

    Trump 44
    Haley 30
    Christie 12
    DeSantis 6
    Ramaswamy 5

    If Christie supporters switch to Haley then she she really could have a chance.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,706
    edited December 2023
    Some better polls for Biden vs Trump.

    New Hampshire - Saint Anselm has Biden +10 (2020: Biden +7)

    National - YouGov has it tied

    National - Quinnipiac has Biden +2 or Trump +2 depending on minor party candidates.

    Is this polling (and the NH Primary polling) the first hint that Trump's position might be starting to look less rock solid?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    I hear that TfL have received HS2 funding to extend the No. 38 bus route, which currently runs from Victoria Station to Stoke Newington, all the way up to Watford.

    Part of the Network North initiative.

    Just seen my first Superloop bus, an express bus serving North Finchley from areas around the capital. Launched a fortnight ago Google tells me
    And it’s taken that long just to get to North Finchley….
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Roger said:

    An interesting thing that hadn't occured to me before. Because of the Greek alphabet being indecipherable to non Greeks English is ubiquitous. It is virtually a first language. All announcements in museums and on transport are spoken in English and Greek. Even the Restaurants have an English and Greek name.

    It reminds me of a Japanese girl I met in France who wrote a poscard home. All squiggles until the last line which said 'JAPAN' I asked her why and she said otherwise it wouldn't get out of France

    Announcements on Greek transport etc. are in English because their alphabet is different? Err, right.
  • MikeL said:

    Some better polls for Biden vs Trump.

    New Hampshire - Saint Anselm has Biden +10 (2020: Biden +7)

    National - YouGov has it tied

    National - Quinnipiac has Biden +2 or Trump +2 depending on minor party candidates.

    Is this polling (and the NH Primary polling) the first hint that Trump's position might be starting to look less rock solid?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Economic sentiment also seems to be getting a bit better, although self-reported belief about the economy is still way more negative than you'd think from actual economic indicators, people's reporting about their own situation, or the way they're spending their money.

    Graph linked from Joe Weisenthal's newsletter:
    https://civiqs.com/results/economy_us_now?uncertainty=true&annotations=true&zoomIn=true

    One theory is that opinion about inflation going down lags inflation going down, so the improvement that happened in the first 6 months of the year is only just feeding through.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    32k+ people voted for that moron Peter Bone? This country is indeed going to the dogs. I mean, jeez.

    They voted for the Conservative candidate.

    Wellingborough isn't a seat Labour can take without thousands and thousands of Conservative voters sitting on their hands.

    But, I expect them to do so.
    Wellingborough voted Lab in 97, I think?

    The sort of seat which votes massively Conservative when Lab is unelectable. Not massively wealthy. Not maasively anything, really. Middle England redux. Massively motivated to keep the liked of Corbyn, or even Miliband out. But few obvious reasons to vote the Tory candidate in if Labour are sane.
    Has the railway through Wellingborough been electrified yet?
    Yes it has. Trains to Corby via Wellingborough and Kettering are now electrified.

    Corby is one of the few stations to reopen twice. It was originally closed in 1966. Then reopened in around 1987 as a branch from Kettering. That didn't work so it closed. Subsequently it has reopened and has two trains an hour from London.
    D'oh! Of course it's been electrified - I even went to Corby back in March!

    I was actually thinking of the line through Market Harborough and beyond!
    No sign of that being electrified. I believe it was proposed once.

    Maybe Keir and Rachel will electrify it to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield. But LAB's record on electrifying railways isn't brilliant 😡
    work is ongoing, albeit at a relatively slow pace:
    https://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/articles/midland-mainline-electrification-continues-significant-upgrades-scheduled
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137

    MikeL said:

    Some better polls for Biden vs Trump.

    New Hampshire - Saint Anselm has Biden +10 (2020: Biden +7)

    National - YouGov has it tied

    National - Quinnipiac has Biden +2 or Trump +2 depending on minor party candidates.

    Is this polling (and the NH Primary polling) the first hint that Trump's position might be starting to look less rock solid?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Economic sentiment also seems to be getting a bit better, although self-reported belief about the economy is still way more negative than you'd think from actual economic indicators, people's reporting about their own situation, or the way they're spending their money.

    Graph linked from Joe Weisenthal's newsletter:
    https://civiqs.com/results/economy_us_now?uncertainty=true&annotations=true&zoomIn=true

    One theory is that opinion about inflation going down lags inflation going down, so the improvement that happened in the first 6 months of the year is only just feeding through.
    Against that, PMIs are worsening, and suggest an imminent US recession.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April
    presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    Bit of a logical leap there by the Guardian (or the pressure group).

    39%/37% of young adults being understandably nervous about disclosing a major personal decision to their families does not in any way imply those individuals are “at risk of harm”
    I think you need to reread what's written, and revisit your own logic.
    You're making your own assumptions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeL said:

    Some better polls for Biden vs Trump.

    New Hampshire - Saint Anselm has Biden +10 (2020: Biden +7)

    National - YouGov has it tied

    National - Quinnipiac has Biden +2 or Trump +2 depending on minor party candidates.

    Is this polling (and the NH Primary polling) the first hint that Trump's position might be starting to look less rock solid?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Economic sentiment also seems to be getting a bit better, although self-reported belief about the economy is still way more negative than you'd think from actual economic indicators, people's reporting about their own situation, or the way they're spending their money.

    Graph linked from Joe Weisenthal's newsletter:
    https://civiqs.com/results/economy_us_now?uncertainty=true&annotations=true&zoomIn=true

    One theory is that opinion about inflation going down lags inflation going down, so the improvement that happened in the first 6 months of the year is only just feeding through.
    Against that, PMIs are worsening, and suggest an imminent US recession.
    They've been unusually low for quite some time considering continuing economic growth.

    The consensus (who knows if it will be right) is for a soft landing rather than recession. If that's the case, then the much criticised Fed - and the administration - deserve much credit.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    viewcode said:



    Further to the earlier discussion on internal threats to the US, here’s a Berkeley professor calling for an intifada in America. The focus on the far-right ignores the growing radicalisation of the left against western states. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1737512500986290596

    viewcode said:

    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    See also:

    * "Fear of". Polls of people's fears of a thing, instead of the actual thing
    * "Outrage by". People are outraged by a thing.
    * "Why we love X". We do? Really?
    * "Calls for". I frequently "call for" free ice-cream. It does not eventuate... :(
    The bit I don't understand is how some left- wing lone wolf bullsh*tter is more dangerous for @williamglenn than a President who with the backing of the Republican Party, has carefully explained how he plans to turn the World's biggest democracy into Putin's Russia.
    He hasn't carefully explained any such thing and he wouldn't have the constitutional or institutional power even if he wanted to.

    To take one example, think of the way Putin treated Khodorkovsky. Do you seriously have visions of Trump doing something similar?
    I expect Trump to punish political opponents this time around. I expect Trump to ensure a third term and I suspect he will be comfortable to use methods irreconcilable with democracy to achieve this. I expect the scapegoating of racial groups, and I expect Trump as Commander in Chief to utilise the military under his command to escalate unrest. He is venal, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Now you will counter this by retorting,"he didn't do this first time around". But after he lost an election he was convinced he would win that is exactly what he tried to do. He attempted with violence to reverse the democratic will of the people.

    Now, that Laffer Curve...
    He can only do that if the military support him (assuming he is elected again next year too and not in jail). In Jan 2021 US generals did not support his attempt to throw out the EC results
    If he is elected CiC. It would be mutiny to disobey the President.

    January 6th 2021 was a disorganised
    shambles. There was as far as I am aware no direct order to arrest Pence for example. A lynch-mob undertook that task.

    If Trump directly orders the Generals to arrest the Clintons, Bidens and Obamas and take them directly to Leavenworth for court-martial and execution that is what they are obliged to do.
    UCMJ91 only covers *lawful* orders. Specifically under UCMJ92 a dereliction of duty charge would require that the order had a valid military purpose.

    Of course any organisation is only as effective as the most senior figures: one would hope that the Chiefs would refuse an order of this nature and, if pressed, resign and publicly state why they did so.

    It would be harder, in practice, for a more junior officer to reject an order but they are unlikely to receive such an order outside of the chain of command and, if they did, then they would likely be challenged by colleagues.

    Why do you people assume protocols will
    be followed by Trump?

    He couldn't give a shiny one for the constitution or military etiquette.
    And why do you think an officer would obey an order that was outwith the established protocols?
    Because the order has been given by the CiC and will be executed in good faith.

    Equally, at least almost 50% will be on board with Trump.
    It wouldn’t have been given within the chain of command. Within the military protocols exist for a reason.

    If the President, for example, personally ordered a Lieutenant to arrest President Obama then I would be stunned if the Lieutenant did not seek guidance from his CO. And so on until it was escalated to the combatant commander (a 4* rank).

    You are simply making an alarmist assertion based on a faulty understanding of the way the military works.

    I may be wrong here, but I though POTUS could do that. In the UK, the PM cannot give military orders: every instruction (except one?[1]) has to go thru the top-level military folk and the PM isn't in the chain of command. UK troops don't salute the PM (am I wrong here?) but US troops do.

    [1] Weirdly, I think the PM can order a nuke launch without going thru a general or whatever
    Scratch that: I've read your points above. Does the POTUS->SecDef->Theater commander chain mean that Trump cannot issue an order to, say, a Private?
    He could issue an order, but if it was controversial then I would expect that guidance would be sought. No private would take the flak.

    In the example above I would expect Obama to comply but by the time he arrived in custody it would be escalated.
    He's not going to start out like that, though ?
    The plan is first to dramatically change the civil service. The very well funded coterie around him have been working for years on lists if loyalists to be appointed in senior positions after mass firings.

    Law enforcement will be next. The military would take longer.

    You're right that the system has considerable built in protections, but with a majority in both Houses of Congress, and a Supreme Court at least partly inside, much is possible for a president who is determined to overthrow the constitutional order.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    An interesting thing that hadn't occured to me before. Because of the Greek alphabet being indecipherable to non Greeks English is ubiquitous. It is virtually a first language. All announcements in museums and on transport are spoken in English and Greek. Even the Restaurants have an English and Greek name.

    It reminds me of a Japanese girl I met in France who wrote a poscard home. All squiggles until the last line which said 'JAPAN' I asked her why and she said otherwise it wouldn't get out of France

    Announcements on Greek transport etc. are in English because their alphabet is different? Err, right.
    Isn't Roger a spoof account? All his posts are 100% ridiculous. Nobody could be that silly.

    Restaurants in Greece do not usually have "an English and a Greek name". Maybe Roger means the signs are written in the Greek alphabet and in Latin script. Though in tourist areas often only in Latin script.

    English is no more a second language in Greece than it is in many other European countries which don't have their own alphabets. If more Greeks than Italians speak English it's mainly because Greece is so heavily dependent on tourism.

    Also weird that someone who claims to spend a lot of time abroad has never noticed that it is normal when addressing something to another country to write the name of the destination country in the language you are posting from.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    kamski said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    An interesting thing that hadn't occured to me before. Because of the Greek alphabet being indecipherable to non Greeks English is ubiquitous. It is virtually a first language. All announcements in museums and on transport are spoken in English and Greek. Even the Restaurants have an English and Greek name.

    It reminds me of a Japanese girl I met in France who wrote a poscard home. All squiggles until the last line which said 'JAPAN' I asked her why and she said otherwise it wouldn't get out of France

    Announcements on Greek transport etc. are in English because their alphabet is different? Err, right.
    Isn't Roger a spoof account? All his posts are 100% ridiculous. Nobody could be that silly.

    Restaurants in Greece do not usually have "an English and a Greek name". Maybe Roger means the signs are written in the Greek alphabet and in Latin script. Though in tourist areas often only in Latin script.

    English is no more a second language in Greece than it is in many other European countries which don't have their own alphabets. If more Greeks than Italians speak English it's mainly because Greece is so heavily dependent on tourism.

    Also weird that someone who claims to spend a lot of time abroad has never noticed that it is normal when addressing something to another country to write the name of the destination country in the language you are posting from.
    Exactly. It’s a small country whose language isn’t widely spoken abroad, not even in neighbouring countries. Like the Netherlands, or Norway (which does have partial intelligibility with Danish). In both of the latter, English is extraordinarily widely understood (such that TV and radio interviews of English speakers don’t even bother with dubbing or subtitles) and their languages both use normal actual letters that people can read.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    kamski said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    An interesting thing that hadn't occured to me before. Because of the Greek alphabet being indecipherable to non Greeks English is ubiquitous. It is virtually a first language. All announcements in museums and on transport are spoken in English and Greek. Even the Restaurants have an English and Greek name.

    It reminds me of a Japanese girl I met in France who wrote a poscard home. All squiggles until the last line which said 'JAPAN' I asked her why and she said otherwise it wouldn't get out of France

    Announcements on Greek transport etc. are in English because their alphabet is different? Err, right.
    Isn't Roger a spoof account? All his posts are 100% ridiculous. Nobody could be that silly.

    Restaurants in Greece do not usually have "an English and a Greek name". Maybe Roger means the signs are written in the Greek alphabet and in Latin script. Though in tourist areas often only in Latin script.

    English is no more a second language in Greece than it is in many other European countries which don't have their own alphabets. If more Greeks than Italians speak English it's mainly because Greece is so heavily dependent on tourism.

    Also weird that someone who claims to spend a lot of time abroad has never noticed that it is normal when addressing something to another country to write the name of the destination country in the language you are posting from.
    Sorry drunk in Athens is my excuse! I had been recommended a fine restaurant in a street full of restaurants. There were no signs by which I could identify my restaurant. I was told it had been called 'The Swordfish'. When I finally found my restaurant I asked the waiter how someone unfamiliar with the Alphabet could glean 'Swordfish'? He said you couldn't because that isn't even an accurate translation but as Athens is now virtually bi-lingual it didn't really matter and indeed it very obviously is.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    New thread.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

    'Schools in England could face legal action if they follow new guidance on how to treat transgender children, ministers’ own lawyers have reportedly warned.

    Advice issued prior to the education secretary, Gillian Keegan, and the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, publishing draft guidance to schools and colleges which said they had no duty to allow students to “socially transition”, warns of significant legal risks if they follow it.'

    "Do what government says; get sued" is the message. A lovely example of an important fact, one which this government and many MPs are blind to. Everything government says and all that parliament enacts is part of an 800 year old matrix of interlocking webs involving everything they, and the courts, have ever decided, said or enacted before. As they will further discover if they ever get the Rwanda (Paddington Deportation) Bill into law.
    This crops up a lot. Rwanda being the obvious case. I don't think the party gets on a gut level that they have to act within the law. If the law prevents them, then the proper procedure is to change the law, not issue statements saying they really mean it.
    What is missed in this debate is that schools have an overriding safeguarding duty with regard to the children in their care and there are numerous laws, rules and government guidance which they must follow. That safeguarding obligation applies to children exhibiting gender distress. This guidance needs to be put in the context of this overriding duty and all the other applicable laws and guidelines. It is not something to be viewed in isolation and there is no automatic course of action to be followed in all cases given schools duties to all the children in their care.

    Those who claim that you must either do this or not do that do not understand what safeguarding really means and do children a disservice. I have just completed my Level 3 DSL training and there is a lot to learn and think about. From my initial review of the guidance and advice from an equality lawyer friend of mine this guidance seems to comply with the law but it needs careful review. What it does not need is a load of activists, whatever their views, seeking to use children for their own agendas.
    The Guardian reporting on the guidance is actually pretty good, and fairly explicit about safeguarding issues.
    Rather more so than the draft guidance itself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/what-does-the-trans-guidance-for-englands-schools-say
    ...The guidance says that parents should almost always be told if their child talks to a teacher about things like a desire to change their pronouns or name, or to dress differently at school, and says that there is almost never a risk of harm in doing so. But that is not a given among trans people. Earlier this year, research conducted for the charity Just Like Us found that more than a third of non-binary (39%) and transgender (37%) young adults said they were not confident they would be accepted when they came out. It also found that 19% of transgender people and 23% of non-binary people were not close to members of their immediate family.

    That is by no means a majority of cases – but nor is it “exceptionally rare”. Teachers quoted in this Observer piece from April
    presented a similar picture. One deputy head of sixth form said: “We’ve had threats of violence towards students from parents. We’ve had students who aren’t safe to go home and have to stay at friend’s houses because parents have found out they are gay or suspect they are identifying as another gender.” The guidance leaves the question of what constitutes “a significant risk of harm” unanswered...
    Bit of a logical leap there by the Guardian
    (or the pressure group).

    39%/37% of young adults being understandably nervous about disclosing a major personal decision to their families does not in any way imply those individuals are “at risk of harm”
    I think you need to reread what's written, and revisit your own logic.
    You're making your own assumptions.
    Nope.

    They have said

    * this is a problem (it may well be, I don’t know)
    * Here is a related piece of data that sounds bad
    * By implication A is proved by B

    That’s a fallacy
This discussion has been closed.