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Another difficult Tory by-election defence – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,160
edited January 1 in General
imageAnother difficult Tory by-election defence – politicalbetting.com

A by-election is expected to take place in 2024 in the UK Parliament constituency of Wellingborough following a 2023 recall petition that removed the incumbent MP Peter Bone.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,345
    That's what you get for waving your private parts in someone's face.
  • Virtually certain LAB win. No LD tradition there.

    LAB first well clear of CON. LD unlikely to get more than 10%.
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    edited December 2023


    Well done Rishi!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,903

    Virtually certain LAB win. No LD tradition there.

    LAB first well clear of CON. LD unlikely to get more than 10%.

    Much as I would like to see the Tories lose again, I cannot see Labour winning here.
  • Sean_F said:

    That's what you get for waving your private parts in someone's face.

    I mean, it's astonishing this sort of behaviour even occurs in the first place.
  • Virtually certain LAB win. No LD tradition there.

    LAB first well clear of CON. LD unlikely to get more than 10%.

    Not a Lib Dem target by any stretch of the imagination, but they ought to try to put in a bit of a performance here. They need to secure third place, well ahead of the Greens, ReFUK and anyone else daft enough to stand. The Lib Dems need to remind people of their existence before the General Election, and this is as good a place to start as any. They can't afford another derisory 5%.
  • I see only about 13% of the constituency actually signed the petition for the recall. Is it possible that the rest will feel affronted by a minority imposing their views upon them and will vote Tory in defiance?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited December 2023
    Hang on, what happened to The voters of Wellingborough get their Bone out? That was my first first in ages and now it's been annulled? :cry:

    (Ok, I didn't actually realise it was a first when posting and didn't call it, but still :disappointed: )

    ETA: Ah, still on VF, so it still counts :smiley:
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Virtually certain LAB win. No LD tradition there.

    LAB first well clear of CON. LD unlikely to get more than 10%.

    So we will probably get some Lib Dem loons having a hissy fit if labour won't stand down. Like Mid Beds.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,287
    edited December 2023
    Last local elections in North Northants were 2021, when the Tories had a 7% NEV lead. I may collate those results in a bored moment, but not because I expect them to be especially illuminating.

    A majority 6.9% lower than in Tamworth probably the best comparator.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.
  • Smarkets have 81% to 18% in labour's favour.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    And Rishi has singlehandedly brought headline
    inflation down to a tiny 3.9%. The economy is going gangbusters.

    All Rishi's good work counts for nothing if the todger waver is the Tory candidate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited December 2023

    I see only about 13% of the constituency actually signed the petition for the recall. Is it possible that the rest will feel affronted by a minority imposing their views upon them and will vote Tory in defiance?

    Most recall petitions are signed by a relatively small minority of the electorate, however.
  • On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    If it was a GE I would expect CON to win here.

    However it's a by election and in the current environment it's virtually impossible for CON to win any by election hence why I am calling it for LAB.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    I see only about 13% of the constituency actually signed the petition for the recall. Is it possible that the rest will feel affronted by a minority imposing their views upon them and will vote Tory in defiance?

    Isn't the purpose of having an election to allow the majority to make its view known? Will people be affronted at being given the opportunity to vote?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Sean_F said:

    That's what you get for waving your private parts in someone's face.

    I mean, it's astonishing this sort of behaviour even occurs in the first place.
    To be honest it shouldn't even go to a recall petition. He should just have been expelled from parliament.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    Selebian said:

    Hang on, what happened to The voters of Wellingborough get their Bone out? That was my first first in ages and now it's been annulled? :cry:

    (Ok, I didn't actually realise it was a first when posting and didn't call it, but still :disappointed: )

    ETA: Ah, still on VF, so it still counts :smiley:

    Count yourself lucky, you could have written the best ever limerick about Peter Bone written on a political betting site, sacrificed to that thread.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    The fact that it was a Labour seat (2001) not that long ago is presumably relevant. It was marginal again in 2005 and then swung Tory big time, with 2015 particularly bad for Labour due to candidate problems (UKIP came second).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellingborough_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

    It looks winnable to me.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,287
    I see Wikipedia lists Genevieve Kitchen (Lab) and Ana Savage Gunn (LD) as selected candidates.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606
    The Washington Post has removed its dedicated section to the war in Ukraine:

    image
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    The fact that it was a Labour seat (2001) not that long ago is presumably relevant. It was marginal again in 2005 and then swung Tory big time, with 2015 particularly bad for Labour due to candidate problems (UKIP came second).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellingborough_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

    It looks winnable to me.
    I would be amazed if Labour do not win this Nick.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Carnyx said:

    I see only about 13% of the constituency actually signed the petition for the recall. Is it possible that the rest will feel affronted by a minority imposing their views upon them and will vote Tory in defiance?

    Most recall petitions are signed by a relatively small minority of the electorate, however.
    13% of the electorate is a decent chunk of people tbf. It’s probably about a quarter of the proportion who will actuall vote. Successful recall petitions are pretty rare.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Oh but it isn't.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,287
    edited December 2023



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    No:

    https://twitter.com/transportgovuk/status/1737401590808543620?t=dtGdeTCMVDvj_j-x3eZZpQ&s=19

    I see context has been added,😆
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    The Washington Post has removed its dedicated section to the war in Ukraine:

    image

    A furtive takeover by the owners of the Evening Standard perhaps.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    Sean_F said:

    That's what you get for waving your private parts in someone's face.

    To be played by John Barrowman in the TV movie
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited December 2023
    Pro_Rata said:

    I see Wikipedia lists Genevieve Kitchen (Lab) and Ana Savage Gunn (LD) as selected candidates.

    Savage Gunn previously stood for Police and Crime Commissioner - seems better nominative determinism than being an MP.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    And Rishi has singlehandedly brought headline
    inflation down to a tiny 3.9%. The economy is going gangbusters.

    All Rishi's good work counts for nothing if the todger waver is the Tory candidate.
    He’s not been convicted of being a todger waver. There’s no evidence that proves he is, is there? If he continues to deny it he could get his old loyal vote out.

    But my argument is different than that. It’s about Labour needing to win over a lot of Tory voters. Stay at home won’t be enough here. And not all Tory voters are the same. Some are just much more reluctant to switch from lifelong Conservative voting straight to Labour.

    Another what if. What if reform candidate becomes Farage?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214
    edited December 2023



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    From an official government page, so not fake.

    And since it's being done by HMG, hardly counts as well done, either.

    (Besides, I'm not a financial whizzkid, but even I realise that cutting one off capital spending to fund ongoing maintenance is mostly a really bad plan. Isn't our grinning midget nitwit of a PM meant to know about finance?)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    The Washington Post has removed its dedicated section to the war in Ukraine:

    image

    A furtive takeover by the owners of the Evening Standard perhaps.
    "Democracy dies in darkness", so let's remove our spotlight?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,796
    Just seen the inflation statistics now that I'm off the plane, quite a big drop and December figures will be another big fall because petrol prices have dropped so much since November. End of year inflation could be as low as 3.3% and we could be under 3% by Feb.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Bone can't be the candidate as he's suspended from the Party.
    I suppose he could stand as an independent, but that isn't an argument for a Tory win.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606
    dixiedean said:

    Bone can't be the candidate as he's suspended from the Party.
    I suppose he could stand as an independent, but that isn't an argument for a Tory win.

    Has anyone done a flash(er) poll yet?
  • Selebian said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I see Wikipedia lists Genevieve Kitchen (Lab) and Ana Savage Gunn (LD) as selected candidates.

    Savage Gunn previously stood for Police and Crime Commissioner - seems better nominative determinism than being an MP.
    ..as opposed to the Labour candidate who should return to the kitchen?...
  • On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    The fact that it was a Labour seat (2001) not that long ago is presumably relevant. It was marginal again in 2005 and then swung Tory big time, with 2015 particularly bad for Labour due to candidate problems (UKIP came second).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellingborough_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

    It looks winnable to me.
    no ULEZ in Northamptonshire?.....
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,780
    Pro_Rata said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    No:

    https://twitter.com/transportgovuk/status/1737401590808543620?t=dtGdeTCMVDvj_j-x3eZZpQ&s=19

    I see context has been added,😆
    The explanatory text above the image is, if anything, even more of a "fuck you."
  • Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    And Rishi has singlehandedly brought headline
    inflation down to a tiny 3.9%. The economy is going gangbusters.

    All Rishi's good work counts for nothing if the todger waver is the Tory candidate.
    He’s not been convicted of being a todger waver. There’s no evidence that proves he is, is there? If he continues to deny it he could get his old loyal vote out.

    But my argument is different than that. It’s about Labour needing to win over a lot of Tory voters. Stay at home won’t be enough here. And not all Tory voters are the same. Some are just much more reluctant to switch from lifelong Conservative voting straight to Labour.

    Another what if. What if reform candidate becomes Farage?
    He's not been convicted because he's not been prosecuted. There was, however, enough evidence to get him suspended from the Commons. What more evidence do you need?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    The Washington Post has removed its dedicated section to the war in Ukraine:

    image

    A furtive takeover by the owners of the Evening Standard perhaps.
    People are not interested, I reckon

    How often is it in the news over here compared to when it all kicked off and the first few months after that.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    DougSeal said:

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    And Rishi has singlehandedly brought headline
    inflation down to a tiny 3.9%. The economy is going gangbusters.

    All Rishi's good work counts for nothing if the todger waver is the Tory candidate.
    He’s not been convicted of being a todger waver. There’s no evidence that proves he is, is there? If he continues to deny it he could get his old loyal vote out.

    But my argument is different than that. It’s about Labour needing to win over a lot of Tory voters. Stay at home won’t be enough here. And not all Tory voters are the same. Some are just much more reluctant to switch from lifelong Conservative voting straight to Labour.

    Another what if. What if reform candidate becomes Farage?
    He's not been convicted because he's not been prosecuted. There was, however, enough evidence to get him suspended from the Commons. What more evidence do you need?
    You are right. We really don’t need to see the photographic evidence of todger waving in a bullying scenario.

    It’s also been in Labours hands in the 2000s, so enough voters there have voted Labour in the past.

    What if Farage was reform candidate, could he win this type of constituency?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    DougSeal said:

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    And Rishi has singlehandedly brought headline
    inflation down to a tiny 3.9%. The economy is going gangbusters.

    All Rishi's good work counts for nothing if the todger waver is the Tory candidate.
    He’s not been convicted of being a todger waver. There’s no evidence that proves he is, is there? If he continues to deny it he could get his old loyal vote out.

    But my argument is different than that. It’s about Labour needing to win over a lot of Tory voters. Stay at home won’t be enough here. And not all Tory voters are the same. Some are just much more reluctant to switch from lifelong Conservative voting straight to Labour.

    Another what if. What if reform candidate becomes Farage?
    He's not been convicted because he's not been prosecuted. There was, however, enough evidence to get him suspended from the Commons. What more evidence do you need?
    You are right. We really don’t need to see the photographic evidence of todger waving in a bullying scenario.

    It’s also been in Labours hands in the 2000s, so enough voters there have voted Labour in the past.

    What if Farage was reform candidate, could he win this type of constituency?
    "It’s also been in Labours hands in the 2000s"

    Bone's Todger ?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    I was devastated to see that Independent SAGE have stopped their weekly briefings on YouTube. They were getting literally hundreds of viewers at the end.


  • Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    From an official government page, so not fake.

    And since it's being done by HMG, hardly counts as well done, either.

    (Besides, I'm not a financial whizzkid, but even I realise that cutting one off capital spending to fund ongoing maintenance is mostly a really bad plan. Isn't our grinning midget nitwit of a PM meant to know about finance?)
    The government will claim it as part of the 'levelling up' agenda as filling in potholes is the same as levelling up the road.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,287



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    From an official government page, so not fake.

    And since it's being done by HMG, hardly counts as well done, either.

    (Besides, I'm not a financial whizzkid, but even I realise that cutting one off capital spending to fund ongoing maintenance is mostly a really bad plan. Isn't our grinning midget nitwit of a PM meant to know about finance?)
    The government will claim it as part of the 'levelling up' agenda as filling in potholes is the same as levelling up the road.
    But why is it not all being spent in Blackburn, Lancashire?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.
  • tlg86 said:

    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.

    I am sure the usual trans hate lobby here and in the papers will be quick to draw attention to this.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,580

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
  • Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    And the cost of pursuing the Subpostmasters was out of all proportion to the amounts 'recouped' (or rather, extorted under threat).

    It was insane. Had the PO devoted the same resources to installing a decent system, checking it, and teaching their staff how to use it, as it did to persecuting the poor sodding SPMs, the organsation would have been in much better shape than it has ever been, and nobody would have gone to jail, been made bankrupt, or had their lives ruined.

    Yes, of course the money extorted from the SPMs should have been returned. It still should be. What's more, the PO's profits should be recalculated on proper accounting principles, and likewise any bonuses paid on the bogus profits that were actually returned. This would undoubtedly result in a lot of present and former employees owing a lot of money. In practice, they probably couldn't pay. Perhaps it could be docked off the pensions.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited December 2023

    On topic. If this was GE night, we wouldn’t tip a Labour win here would we? it’s only becuase by elections are special focus of public discontent.

    But on other hand, as Uxbridge showed, some places are simply harder to achieve the swing, even if harder targets fall on same night. It’s not just raw numbers for a swing where we count everyone the same, it’s more like chemistry as each voter is of different make up. I suggested there may be a “grey wall” - pensioners, home owners - and some constituency’s may have more of these so harder for the socialists to switch the raw numbers of these people.

    Another factor could be how Labours support over all is declining, regardless of the Tory unpopularity, 42% is hardly an all conquering position in itself.

    Another factor is if Bone is the candidate he may get just enough support to cling on in a tight race. He’s not been convicted of anything.

    And Rishi has singlehandedly brought headline
    inflation down to a tiny 3.9%. The economy is going gangbusters.

    All Rishi's good work counts for nothing if the todger waver is the Tory candidate.
    He’s not been convicted of being a todger waver. There’s no evidence that proves he is, is there? If he continues to deny it he could get his old loyal vote out.

    But my argument is different than that. It’s about Labour needing to win over a lot of Tory voters. Stay at home won’t be enough here. And not all Tory voters are the same. Some are just much more reluctant to switch from lifelong Conservative voting straight to Labour.

    Another what if. What if reform candidate becomes Farage?
    Lifelong Tories since 2005? But I see your point, particularly if newly fun-washed Nigel becomes candidate and MP.

    There was anecdotal evidence to suggest Mr B. got more than his loyal vote out.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited December 2023
    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556
    Pro_Rata said:

    I see Wikipedia lists Genevieve Kitchen (Lab) and Ana Savage Gunn (LD) as selected candidates.

    Kitchen for the Cabinet?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,580

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
    It's a good question. Maybe WH Smith told the PO to get lost and the PO backed off?
  • Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
    OKC - The SPM's were subcontractors, so big outfits like WH Smith would not have been involved.

    Barnesian - I believe there were sometimes overstatements as well as under. I think the overs were ignored. The unders were normally recouped under duress from the SPMs. So yes, the PO trousered a lot of money that it was not entitled to, and as far as I am aware, it still has that money.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    tlg86 said:

    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.

    I am sure the usual trans hate lobby here and in the papers will be quick to draw attention to this.
    Quite unnecessary for you to take a tragic story about a child’s awful murder and turn it into an attack on people who haven’t done what you really deep down want them to do in order to feed a grievance you wish to pursue. It’s a kid who was murdered by two disgusting kids whose motives were terrible whatever they were.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    That applies once the postmaster declared (or was found to have) the shortfall. Most of them tried to balance the books with their own money before the scale of the shortfalls got too big - action that ironically weakened their defence as and when they ended up in court. So while the shortfalls that they were prosecuted for didn’t benefit the PO financially, many of them had been putting their own money in, in a few cases quite considerable amounts of it, and those payments did go to the PO’s bottom line.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Ghedebrav said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see only about 13% of the constituency actually signed the petition for the recall. Is it possible that the rest will feel affronted by a minority imposing their views upon them and will vote Tory in defiance?

    Most recall petitions are signed by a relatively small minority of the electorate, however.
    13% of the electorate is a decent chunk of people tbf. It’s probably about a quarter of the proportion who will actuall vote. Successful recall petitions are pretty rare.
    You sure it's not the other way round? We've seen several successful ones and only one failure IIRC - I. Paisley MP [the younger].
  • ajbajb Posts: 147

    The Washington Post has removed its dedicated section to the war in Ukraine:

    image

    A furtive takeover by the owners of the Evening Standard perhaps.
    It's actually owned by Jeff Bezos. Not sure he has anything against Ukraine, but he probably doesn't give a shit either.
  • eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
  • The Washington Post has removed its dedicated section to the war in Ukraine:

    image

    A furtive takeover by the owners of the Evening Standard perhaps.
    Talking of which... Tonight's Standard is nearly all reprinted restaurant reviews. I know there are fewer commuters this week, and that money is tight, but is that really the best they can do?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
    Maybe an Isle of Wighter named it?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,287
    edited December 2023
    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    Beeb as well:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67773896
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,580

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
    OKC - The SPM's were subcontractors, so big outfits like WH Smith would not have been involved.

    Barnesian - I believe there were sometimes overstatements as well as under. I think the overs were ignored. The unders were normally recouped under duress from the SPMs. So yes, the PO trousered a lot of money that it was not entitled to, and as far as I am aware, it still has that money.
    So the "extra profit" is the result of extortion? I assume that will be returned to the SPMs as well as substantial damages. Should have happened already.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174

    tlg86 said:

    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.

    I am sure the usual trans hate lobby here and in the papers will be quick to draw attention to this.
    No hate to anyone other than grifters like Maugham.
  • Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
    Maybe an Isle of Wighter named it?
    Nah, making it national allowed Rishi to give the biggest number for its budget at the Tory party conference in Manchester. For he takes us all for fools.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
    OKC - The SPM's were subcontractors, so big outfits like WH Smith would not have been involved.

    Barnesian - I believe there were sometimes overstatements as well as under. I think the overs were ignored. The unders were normally recouped under duress from the SPMs. So yes, the PO trousered a lot of money that it was not entitled to, and as far as I am aware, it still has that money.
    How do the arrangements with the likes of big companies differ, then? Surely they were using Horizon in their stores.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,780
    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
  • Good evening

    I have just been listening to the verdict of the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey and words fail me

    Apparently two teenagers, one a boy, the other a girl who was friends with Brianna and who Brianna trusted lured her to a park and stabbed her 28 times

    It seems the killers had planned the murder as they wanted to experience what killing was like

    Such utter evil is impossible to understand

    RIP Brianna

    As someone with a transgender family member this case has been quite distressing to follow. The sheer callous determination to brutally take someone's life is horrifying in such young people. As you say, they are utterly evil. Both are too broken to ever be reformed. They will be housed and fed at the taxpayer's expense for 20 years, and then released. They will still be a threat to anyone they see as vulnerable.

    People like this are why I support the death penalty.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
    Maybe an Isle of Wighter named it?
    Nah, making it national allowed Rishi to give the biggest number for its budget at the Tory party conference in Manchester. For he takes us all for fools.
    DfT were offering improvements such as Cullompton railway station (been on the cards for years already) in *Devon* in the panic after the cut of HS2 to try and justify it. To see them trotting out the same fib (investment/yearly maintenance, North/South) is indeed sending a strong message of the kind you say.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
    OKC - The SPM's were subcontractors, so big outfits like WH Smith would not have been involved.

    Barnesian - I believe there were sometimes overstatements as well as under. I think the overs were ignored. The unders were normally recouped under duress from the SPMs. So yes, the PO trousered a lot of money that it was not entitled to, and as far as I am aware, it still has that money.
    How do the arrangements with the likes of big companies differ, then? Surely they were using Horizon in their stores.
    I wondered too.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,287
    Cookie said:

    kamski said:

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Skynews are on to it:

    https://news.sky.com/story/government-sparks-anger-and-ridicule-with-multi-million-network-north-road-project-for-london-13034791
    While I agree with the sentiment, this illustrates a bugbear of mine about modern journalism: the headline that tells you how to feel about the thing (or how others are feeling about the thing, inviting you to join in) before telling you the thing.
    No. I think the ridicule probably is the story here, this time.

    This isn't viewers angry at The Chase, is it?
  • Good evening

    I have just been listening to the verdict of the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey and words fail me

    Apparently two teenagers, one a boy, the other a girl who was friends with Brianna and who Brianna trusted lured her to a park and stabbed her 28 times

    It seems the killers had planned the murder as they wanted to experience what killing was like

    Such utter evil is impossible to understand

    RIP Brianna

    As someone with a transgender family member this case has been quite distressing to follow. The sheer callous determination to brutally take someone's life is horrifying in such young people. As you say, they are utterly evil. Both are too broken to ever be reformed. They will be housed and fed at the taxpayer's expense for 20 years, and then released. They will still be a threat to anyone they see as vulnerable.

    People like this are why I support the death penalty.
    I fully understand your views on this, and to be honest how a16year old boy and girl can set out to murder someone that trusted them, just to experience what murder is like makes one despair
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Carnyx said:

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    So money extracted from postmasters courtesy of Horizon & etc., were ultimately accounted as part of PO profit . . . and thus as part of the calculation & allocation of bonuses for PO "managers"?

    IF so, no wonder they were NOT eager to identify let alone correct errors.
    As I understand it, the Horizen system was over recording transactions so that the centrally reported revenue was more than the cash in the till. Hence the apparent shortfall that sub-postmasters were prosecuted for.

    So there was no extra money or profit. There was an over recording of revenue with presumably a bad debt entry to cover the apparent shortfall in cash.
    I don't think anyone responded to my question yesterday about what happened when 'errors' were 'discovered' at sub-post offices run by large companies such as WH Smith.
    OKC - The SPM's were subcontractors, so big outfits like WH Smith would not have been involved.

    Barnesian - I believe there were sometimes overstatements as well as under. I think the overs were ignored. The unders were normally recouped under duress from the SPMs. So yes, the PO trousered a lot of money that it was not entitled to, and as far as I am aware, it still has that money.
    How do the arrangements with the likes of big companies differ, then? Surely they were using Horizon in their stores.
    I wondered too.
    Ms Cyclefree might have some idea, I suppose.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    tlg86 said:

    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.

    The trial was livetweeted. You can find it here: https://nitter.net/jessothomson/status/1729078401166881158

    I assume the remarks in question were one or more of the following:
    • “Is it a femboy or a tranny?"
    • “Tell me what you feel when you interact with it”.
    • “I don’t think you’re necessarily in love but I think you’re more curious and intrigued by its unnatural nature”.
    • “yeah, it’ll be easier and I want to see if it will scream like a man or a girl”.
    As for the non-antitrans part of the murder plot, the couple were intensely interested in carrying out a murder. They prepared to kill two people: one who they thought a nonce, another who they thought an it. The first one changed their plans, so they went for Ghey. Ironically she had anxiety attacks which her mother tried to alleviate by encouraging her to use the bus, thus inadvertently providing an attack window for her killers. Things then proceeded in a predictable fashion.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Good evening

    I have just been listening to the verdict of the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey and words fail me

    Apparently two teenagers, one a boy, the other a girl who was friends with Brianna and who Brianna trusted lured her to a park and stabbed her 28 times

    It seems the killers had planned the murder as they wanted to experience what killing was like

    Such utter evil is impossible to understand

    RIP Brianna

    As someone with a transgender family member this case has been quite distressing to follow. The sheer callous determination to brutally take someone's life is horrifying in such young people. As you say, they are utterly evil. Both are too broken to ever be reformed. They will be housed and fed at the taxpayer's expense for 20 years, and then released. They will still be a threat to anyone they see as vulnerable.

    People like this are why I support the death penalty.
    I fully understand your views on this, and to be honest how a16year old boy and girl can set out to murder someone that trusted them, just to experience what murder is like makes one despair
    Shades of that poor little chap, James Bulger.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    tlg86 said:

    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.

    I am sure the usual trans hate lobby here and in the papers will be quick to draw attention to this.
    Grow up Horse

    A child has been killed here.

    This is nothing to do with so-called trans hate and everything to do with contempt of court.
  • Good evening

    I have just been listening to the verdict of the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey and words fail me

    Apparently two teenagers, one a boy, the other a girl who was friends with Brianna and who Brianna trusted lured her to a park and stabbed her 28 times

    It seems the killers had planned the murder as they wanted to experience what killing was like

    Such utter evil is impossible to understand

    RIP Brianna

    As someone with a transgender family member this case has been quite distressing to follow. The sheer callous determination to brutally take someone's life is horrifying in such young people. As you say, they are utterly evil. Both are too broken to ever be reformed. They will be housed and fed at the taxpayer's expense for 20 years, and then released. They will still be a threat to anyone they see as vulnerable.

    People like this are why I support the death penalty.
    I fully understand your views on this, and to be honest how a16year old boy and girl can set out to murder someone that trusted them, just to experience what murder is like makes one despair
    Shades of that poor little chap, James Bulger.
    Indeed
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
    They must think we are idiots
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
    They must think we are idiots
    Yup. Be honest, they have a point. Look who we keep voting for.
  • eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:



    Well done Rishi!

    That graphic has to be a (well done) fake.
    Posted on official DfT X account. I know... I was also looking for the indications of it being a spoof.
    That, literally, as in my back hurts, made me fall of my chair. It's real? What idiots. What absolute morons.
    The more I look at it the more I wonder which person in the DfT social media team is a Labour supporter because outside London that post is worth 1,000s of votes
    Its hardly sabotage.

    Network North is specifically country wide by design. Blame the head honchos.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65294b416b6fbf0014b75641/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf
    They must think we are idiots
    True, and we think they are too. At least one group is right.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494

    DougSeal said:

    I was devastated to see that Independent SAGE have stopped their weekly briefings on YouTube. They were getting literally hundreds of viewers at the end.

    Their thyme was up.
    Oregono
  • DougSeal said:

    I was devastated to see that Independent SAGE have stopped their weekly briefings on YouTube. They were getting literally hundreds of viewers at the end.

    Their thyme was up.
    Oregono
    Pesto
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494

    DougSeal said:

    I was devastated to see that Independent SAGE have stopped their weekly briefings on YouTube. They were getting literally hundreds of viewers at the end.

    Their thyme was up.
    Oregono
    Pesto
    Pesto? You mixing it up a bit?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    Carnyx said:

    O/T but concerning a PB perennial question - about the Horizon scandal, where did the money go if the subPOs didn't steal it?

    Short answer, the PO didn't know or seemingly much care.

    'It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:

    Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
    Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

    What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.'

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

    Yep:

    I've commented on this in the past. The PO was making record profits on the back of a strange rise in Other Income, that was (bizarrely) also exactly the same size as the amounts they claimed were being stolen every year.

    It makes the claim that pretty much any Post Master was stealing meaningful sums of money almost inconceivable.
  • DougSeal said:

    I was devastated to see that Independent SAGE have stopped their weekly briefings on YouTube. They were getting literally hundreds of viewers at the end.

    Their thyme was up.
    Oregono
    Pesto
    Sorry but I am not sure these cut the mustard.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129

    Sean_F said:

    That's what you get for waving your private parts in someone's face.

    I mean, it's astonishing this sort of behaviour even occurs in the first place.
    I know.

    Where's the respect for authority?

    In my day, you accepted your boss waving his bits with good grace. If you told anyone - which you really shouldn't - it would be your mates down the pub. You certainly wouldn't go crying to some ridiculous standards body.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    That's what you get for waving your private parts in someone's face.

    I mean, it's astonishing this sort of behaviour even occurs in the first place.
    I know.

    Where's the respect for authority?

    In my day, you accepted your boss waving his bits with good grace. If you told anyone - which you really shouldn't - it would be your mates down the pub. You certainly wouldn't go crying to some ridiculous standards body.
    I must be unlucky. No manager of mine has either waved his dick or her thrupnies in my face. The latter being less offensive than the former.
  • DougSeal said:

    I was devastated to see that Independent SAGE have stopped their weekly briefings on YouTube. They were getting literally hundreds of viewers at the end.

    Their thyme was up.
    Oregono
    Pesto
    Sorry but I am not sure these cut the mustard.
    Dill Se
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708

    Good evening

    I have just been listening to the verdict of the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey and words fail me

    Apparently two teenagers, one a boy, the other a girl who was friends with Brianna and who Brianna trusted lured her to a park and stabbed her 28 times

    It seems the killers had planned the murder as they wanted to experience what killing was like

    Such utter evil is impossible to understand

    RIP Brianna

    As someone with a transgender family member this case has been quite distressing to follow. The sheer callous determination to brutally take someone's life is horrifying in such young people. As you say, they are utterly evil. Both are too broken to ever be reformed. They will be housed and fed at the taxpayer's expense for 20 years, and then released. They will still be a threat to anyone they see as vulnerable.

    People like this are why I support the death penalty.
    I fully understand your views on this, and to be honest how a16year old boy and girl can set out to murder someone that trusted them, just to experience what murder is like makes one despair
    Perhaps they listened to Johnny Cash's Folsom Prison Blues: "But I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die". Amazing that that lyric was allowed
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Good evening

    I have just been listening to the verdict of the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey and words fail me

    Apparently two teenagers, one a boy, the other a girl who was friends with Brianna and who Brianna trusted lured her to a park and stabbed her 28 times

    It seems the killers had planned the murder as they wanted to experience what killing was like

    Such utter evil is impossible to understand

    RIP Brianna

    From the brief bits of it I had followed had it not been her it would have been someone else.

    Utterly awful.

    Poor child, all her life ahead of her. snuffed out for no reason at all.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,953
    viewcode said:

    tlg86 said:

    Lock him up...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/why-brianna-ghey-police-quickly-ruled-out-transphobia-as-motive

    Although transphobia did not come up in the trial, the judge, Mrs Justice Yip, may consider it to be an aggravating factor when sentencing one or both of the teenagers. But she told potential jurors on the first day of the trial to put aside any “uninformed views” about Brianna’s killing.

    She also took a dim view of online commentators who pronounced that the defendants were transphobic. After the case was opened, the prosecution complained about a tweet from the barrister Jolyon Maugham, the founder of the Good Law Project, saying the teenagers had exchanged “transphobic slurs”.

    Yip said the tweet was potentially in contempt of court, a serious crime that has previously resulted in short jail terms for those judged to have prejudiced a trial. Heer said the prosecution had deliberately not used such terms in the presence of the jury.

    The trial was livetweeted. You can find it here: https://nitter.net/jessothomson/status/1729078401166881158

    I assume the remarks in question were one or more of the following:
    • “Is it a femboy or a tranny?"
    • “Tell me what you feel when you interact with it”.
    • “I don’t think you’re necessarily in love but I think you’re more curious and intrigued by its unnatural nature”.
    • “yeah, it’ll be easier and I want to see if it will scream like a man or a girl”.
    As for the non-antitrans part of the murder plot, the couple were intensely interested in carrying out a murder. They prepared to kill two people: one who they thought a nonce, another who they thought an it. The first one changed their plans, so they went for Ghey. Ironically she had anxiety attacks which her mother tried to alleviate by encouraging her to use the bus, thus inadvertently providing an attack window for her killers. Things then proceeded in a predictable fashion.
    Predictable fashion? Are you fucking kidding me. How was what happened predictable.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    This government are impressively bad. Turning incompetence into an art form.
This discussion has been closed.