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The let’s get Rwanda done election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited December 2023 in General
The let’s get Rwanda done election? – politicalbetting.com

Some Tory MPs saying if the Lords try to hold up the emergency legislation the PM should call an election and fight it on Rwanda. They say they'll still lose but less so than if they waited longer…

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited December 2023
    I am so cold.

    Spent last night at Bramall Lane freezing my [moderated] off watching Liverpool.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    edited December 2023
    Let's not.

    But an election would be fun.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    I’m not so cold.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983
    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,116
    The whole concept of the Tories choosing to fight an election on an issue on which they are seen to have failed dismally - and were even before the Rwanda shambles - despite having been in power for the last 13 years, is utterly insane.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    .
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    "Senate Republicans block Ukraine and Israel aid bill"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67637679

    The US Republican Party: the best politicians foreign powers can buy....

    They made it clear they expect something in return for it. The President should negotiate.
    Aid to Ukraine is something a majority of Senate Republicans have said they support.
    Why are they then insisting on a quid pro quo for backing it ?

    The President is, though, negotiating.
    BIDEN says he wants a deal. “I am willing to make significant compromises on the border.”

    Republicans want to continue talking.

    Dems’ top negotiator is pessimistic, says GOP is demanding crazy stuff...

    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1732532073716465749

    Then you have jerks like this.
    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1731785802156220744

    When GOP senators are saying in plain terms "this is not a negotiation", they are effectively saying that unless the administration surrenders power to them, they will let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    Other GOP senators are saying they will negotiate and why wouldn’t they lever it to get something they want in return.

    They only need 11 switchers for it to pass. Every GOP senator voted against it not just the headbangers.

    Biden says he will negotiate. He needs to, in good faith and appeal to the more moderate ones.

    Anyway the BBC says further negotiations are planned so we will see.
    "... why wouldn’t they lever it to get something they want in return. "

    Because supporting Ukraine is the correct thing to do, regardless of the politics? And the risks of any Russian 'win' will be bad for the US and US interests around the world?
    Well they are being asked to pony up a colossal amount of money ant a time when US indebtedness is rising at an alarming rate and debt repayments are rising due to interest rate increases.

    This is all GOP senators not just the lunatic fringe and, quite frankly, there are some who do not think supporting Ukraine is either right thing to do. Especially as it is unqualified support.

    If the US govt wants to pass it they need to work with the saner republicans and do a deal.
    That's largely balls.
    Much of the Ukraine aid is in the form of weapons from stock, accounted for at inflated valuations.
    The 'alarming amount' of money being discussed represents (including the weapons value) represents under 0.2% of the $9 trillion the Trump administration increased the debt - which included an unfunded $2 to $3 trillion tax cut for the rich - which those same Republican senators voted for.

    The Ukraine issue possesses an urgency which the border issue doesn't. Without a bill, aid will effectively cease by the year end - and Congress shortly goes on holiday.

    As far as the border issue is concerned, these same Republicans again did nothing substantive about it from 2017 to 2019, when they controlled all three branches of the federal government.

    Is there room for a deal ? Perhaps.
    But the idea that the Republicans are negotiating in good faith is delusional.
    To carry over the debate from the last thread, I'd also note that the most urgent part of border control is the supply of illegal fentanyl and its analogues into the US, which is taking a huge toll on society.
    Again, though, that's little to do with immigration, since the bulk of it is smuggled by US citizens.

    Biden has at least reached some form of agreement with China, which supplies most of them, to restrict the supply of the chemical precursors into Mexico.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    edited December 2023
    Chris said:

    The whole concept of the Tories choosing to fight an election on an issue on which they are seen to have failed dismally - and were even before the Rwanda shambles - despite having been in power for the last 13 years, is utterly insane.

    You're saying it's quite likely, then ?
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    edited December 2023
    Yeah, would be hilarious when Rwanda walked away. As they surely will.

    Human trafficking is human trafficking. Whether undertaken by Governments or smuggling gangs.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    Warmer here. 5deg according to Siri on my phone!

    And good morning everybody.

    What a mess the government seems to have got itself into. I’m beginning to think we will get an election before January 2025.
  • Options
    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    What an utterly revolting thought I’m not surprised you were upset.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    "At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes. "

    Yup, which is why a Get Rwanda done election will be a disaster for them. An election of being tough on migration when they have been anything but will simply expose them.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    .

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    All I can say is that Stormy has a strong stomach.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:

    The whole concept of the Tories choosing to fight an election on an issue on which they are seen to have failed dismally - and were even before the Rwanda shambles - despite having been in power for the last 13 years, is utterly insane.

    You're saying it's quite likely, then ?
    It could have looked like having enough chance of working to be worth looking into.

    Get it through the Commons, watch it get held up in the Lords. Crank up the outrage. Peers Vs people election. Party like it's 2019.

    Not great odds, but there's a logic there. It's all been rather spoiled by Jenrick and Braverman blowing the gaff. And by Rwanda appearing to get cold feet.

    I thought Rishi intended to get jolly miffed with foreign lawyers telling Britain what they could and couldn't do?
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,207
    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:

    The whole concept of the Tories choosing to fight an election on an issue on which they are seen to have failed dismally - and were even before the Rwanda shambles - despite having been in power for the last 13 years, is utterly insane.

    You're saying it's quite likely, then ?
    It could have looked like having enough chance of working to be worth looking into.

    Get it through the Commons, watch it get held up in the Lords. Crank up the outrage. Peers Vs people election. Party like it's 2019.

    Not great odds, but there's a logic there. It's all been rather spoiled by Jenrick and Braverman blowing the gaff. And by Rwanda appearing to get cold feet.

    I thought Rishi intended to get jolly miffed with foreign lawyers telling Britain what they could and couldn't do?
    Party like it is like 1909/1910.

    We need a proper constitutional crisis involving the King, it has been too long.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    Whether you believe in radical free speech, or that speech ought to be policed, the blatant inconsistency noted here is undeniable.

    And yes, it is antisemitism.

    https://twitter.com/JonHaidt/status/1732389011983900857
    As a professor who favors free speech on campus, I can sympathize with the "nuanced" answers given by U. presidents yesterday, about whether calls to attack or wipe out Israel violate campus speech policies.

    What offends me is that since 2015, universities have been so quick to punish "microaggressions," including statements intended to be kind, if even one person from a favored group took offense. The presidents are now saying: "Jews are not a favored group, so offending or threatening Jews is not so bad. For Jews, it all depends on context." We might call this double standard "institutional anti-semitism."

    University presidents: If you're not going to punish students for calling for the elimination of Israel and Israelis, it's OK with me, but ONLY if you also immediately dismantle the speech policing apparatus and norms you created in 2015-2016...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    I’ve cancelled it because it’s now shite
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,947
    edited December 2023
    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    And the more obvious the nervous breakdown the greater the scale that defeat is going to be

    I'm struggling to see how this Government gets to March to allow an election to be called for May..
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133
    Leon said:

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    I’ve cancelled it because it’s now shite
    I stopped my Spectator subscription for the same reason.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    Isn’t the Jewish festival Hanukkah about now? Festival of light. Maybe that’s a reason for a ceasefire; it is to be hoped anyway.
  • Options
    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    "Senate Republicans block Ukraine and Israel aid bill"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67637679

    The US Republican Party: the best politicians foreign powers can buy....

    They made it clear they expect something in return for it. The President should negotiate.
    Aid to Ukraine is something a majority of Senate Republicans have said they support.
    Why are they then insisting on a quid pro quo for backing it ?

    The President is, though, negotiating.
    BIDEN says he wants a deal. “I am willing to make significant compromises on the border.”

    Republicans want to continue talking.

    Dems’ top negotiator is pessimistic, says GOP is demanding crazy stuff...

    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1732532073716465749

    Then you have jerks like this.
    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1731785802156220744

    When GOP senators are saying in plain terms "this is not a negotiation", they are effectively saying that unless the administration surrenders power to them, they will let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    Other GOP senators are saying they will negotiate and why wouldn’t they lever it to get something they want in return.

    They only need 11 switchers for it to pass. Every GOP senator voted against it not just the headbangers.

    Biden says he will negotiate. He needs to, in good faith and appeal to the more moderate ones.

    Anyway the BBC says further negotiations are planned so we will see.
    "... why wouldn’t they lever it to get something they want in return. "

    Because supporting Ukraine is the correct thing to do, regardless of the politics? And the risks of any Russian 'win' will be bad for the US and US interests around the world?
    Well they are being asked to pony up a colossal amount of money ant a time when US indebtedness is rising at an alarming rate and debt repayments are rising due to interest rate increases.

    This is all GOP senators not just the lunatic fringe and, quite frankly, there are some who do not think supporting Ukraine is either right thing to do. Especially as it is unqualified support.

    If the US govt wants to pass it they need to work with the saner republicans and do a deal.
    That's largely balls.
    Much of the Ukraine aid is in the form of weapons from stock, accounted for at inflated valuations.
    The 'alarming amount' of money being discussed represents (including the weapons value) represents under 0.2% of the $9 trillion the Trump administration increased the debt - which included an unfunded $2 to $3 trillion tax cut for the rich - which those same Republican senators voted for.

    The Ukraine issue possesses an urgency which the border issue doesn't. Without a bill, aid will effectively cease by the year end - and Congress shortly goes on holiday.

    As far as the border issue is concerned, these same Republicans again did nothing substantive about it from 2017 to 2019, when they controlled all three branches of the federal government.

    Is there room for a deal ? Perhaps.
    But the idea that the Republicans are negotiating in good faith is delusional.
    To carry over the debate from the last thread, I'd also note that the most urgent part of border control is the supply of illegal fentanyl and its analogues into the US, which is taking a huge toll on society.
    Again, though, that's little to do with immigration, since the bulk of it is smuggled by US citizens.

    Biden has at least reached some form of agreement with China, which supplies most of them, to restrict the supply of the chemical precursors into Mexico.

    Firstly I never made a claim about whether or not the Republicans were negotiating in good faith so I am not sure why you address that.

    The Biden administration needs to negotiate and agree a deal here. So far the US has given Ukraine over 80 billion USD. Of which just over half is in the form of military hardware. This aid package is, again, a mixture of cash and hardware. It is not just a load of obsolete weapons the US would otherwise send for scrap.

    If it is so urgent then the administration need to get their skates on and sort it out. This deal also has aid for Gaza and Israel.

    The Trump administration was fiscally irresponsible so that makes it okay to carry on being fiscally irresponsible. No it doesn't. Debt is fine when it can be afforded and with ZIRP the levels of debt under Trump were far more sustainable than they are now.

    Currently 13% of US Tax dollars goes on debt, in ten years time it is forecast to be 20%.

  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,116
    edited December 2023
    To my mind the interesting question is whether this is part of any coherent electoral plan at all, or just a desperate compromise to try to hold the party together in the wake of Braverman's departure and the Supreme Court judgment.

    If it is part of an electoral strategy, does what they have done point to an earlier election or a later one?

    From what I've read, the legislation doesn't go as far as preventing individuals having recourse to the courts, and the treaty isn't going to alter the previous finding of facts, so even if the legislation passed parliament, the process could still be delayed in the courts for a long time. But is there really any prospect of its getting through the Lords anyway? If it's stuck in the Lords, does it make any difference whether the election is early or late?
  • Options
    Meanwhile in the USA the Dems would rather Trump and Putin win than do anything to restrict illegal immigration.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    Apart from Chris Christie - who stands no chance of getting the nomination - they failed it.

    Trump’s ‘dictator’ remark jolts the 2024 campaign — and tests his GOP rivals on debate day
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/06/trump-dictator-remark-2024-campaign-00130392
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    The basic problem with the Tories is that since 2015 they have been trying to create a Britain that reflects their age-old fantasies in the face of all social, economic and cultural forces to the contrary.

    It’s doomed to failure.
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
    I already has been........ painfully long
  • Options
    Leon said:

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    I’ve cancelled it because it’s now shite
    Are you jealous that they now have Brooklyn Beckham doing travel writing ?

    I take my computer with me wherever I go because Nicola and I love watching TV shows and always have a series on the go. If we’re staying in a hotel then we’ll get room service — my go-to order is chicken and chips with an ice water; Nicola goes for fruit and ice cream — and binge-watch something like Sex and the City or Gilmore Girls in the evening.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brooklyn-peltz-beckham-i-loved-summers-in-spain-with-my-nan-lj0klt6jd
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    edited December 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    Hmm. Wiki: The National Bolivarian Armed Forces (Spanish: Fuerza Armada Nacional Bolivariana - FANB) of Venezuela [...] have 123,000 active personnel and 8,000 reservists [apparently including militia, though]. UK: about 1.2 [edit] x as many. Presumably better trained, but very definitely not over there.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,993

    Leon said:

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    I’ve cancelled it because it’s now shite
    Are you jealous that they now have Brooklyn Beckham doing travel writing ?

    I take my computer with me wherever I go because Nicola and I love watching TV shows and always have a series on the go. If we’re staying in a hotel then we’ll get room service — my go-to order is chicken and chips with an ice water; Nicola goes for fruit and ice cream — and binge-watch something like Sex and the City or Gilmore Girls in the evening.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brooklyn-peltz-beckham-i-loved-summers-in-spain-with-my-nan-lj0klt6jd
    My god that is bad
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
    The “scene from a heist movie” is bang on. We all know the moment. Bravo.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,339
    Nigelb said:

    Whether you believe in radical free speech, or that speech ought to be policed, the blatant inconsistency noted here is undeniable.

    And yes, it is antisemitism.

    https://twitter.com/JonHaidt/status/1732389011983900857
    As a professor who favors free speech on campus, I can sympathize with the "nuanced" answers given by U. presidents yesterday, about whether calls to attack or wipe out Israel violate campus speech policies.

    What offends me is that since 2015, universities have been so quick to punish "microaggressions," including statements intended to be kind, if even one person from a favored group took offense. The presidents are now saying: "Jews are not a favored group, so offending or threatening Jews is not so bad. For Jews, it all depends on context." We might call this double standard "institutional anti-semitism."

    University presidents: If you're not going to punish students for calling for the elimination of Israel and Israelis, it's OK with me, but ONLY if you also immediately dismantle the speech policing apparatus and norms you created in 2015-2016...

    Yup. It's totally dismal and am no free speech absolutist. To function properly there will always be certain red lines - but especially in further education one should try and keep them limited to the quite obviously inciting or abusive. As ever, antisemitism is a certain part of the left's blindspot that collapses much else as it cracks the edifice and exposes much of the rhetoric as hollow.

    What's also odd is that they were probably in a fairly good place until a decade or so ago. Come out of the bad old days when some disgraceful stuff was accepted but hands off enough to allow students to find their own way unless they had gone truly into some vile stuff. I guess in part it's inventing stuff for people to do and thus finding ever more niche quarrels to insert oneself into.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,468
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    "Senate Republicans block Ukraine and Israel aid bill"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67637679

    The US Republican Party: the best politicians foreign powers can buy....

    They made it clear they expect something in return for it. The President should negotiate.
    Aid to Ukraine is something a majority of Senate Republicans have said they support.
    Why are they then insisting on a quid pro quo for backing it ?

    The President is, though, negotiating.
    BIDEN says he wants a deal. “I am willing to make significant compromises on the border.”

    Republicans want to continue talking.

    Dems’ top negotiator is pessimistic, says GOP is demanding crazy stuff...

    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1732532073716465749

    Then you have jerks like this.
    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1731785802156220744

    When GOP senators are saying in plain terms "this is not a negotiation", they are effectively saying that unless the administration surrenders power to them, they will let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    Other GOP senators are saying they will negotiate and why wouldn’t they lever it to get something they want in return.

    They only need 11 switchers for it to pass. Every GOP senator voted against it not just the headbangers.

    Biden says he will negotiate. He needs to, in good faith and appeal to the more moderate ones.

    Anyway the BBC says further negotiations are planned so we will see.
    "... why wouldn’t they lever it to get something they want in return. "

    Because supporting Ukraine is the correct thing to do, regardless of the politics? And the risks of any Russian 'win' will be bad for the US and US interests around the world?
    Well they are being asked to pony up a colossal amount of money ant a time when US indebtedness is rising at an alarming rate and debt repayments are rising due to interest rate increases.

    This is all GOP senators not just the lunatic fringe and, quite frankly, there are some who do not think supporting Ukraine is either right thing to do. Especially as it is unqualified support.

    If the US govt wants to pass it they need to work with the saner republicans and do a deal.
    That's largely balls.
    Much of the Ukraine aid is in the form of weapons from stock, accounted for at inflated valuations.
    The 'alarming amount' of money being discussed represents (including the weapons value) represents under 0.2% of the $9 trillion the Trump administration increased the debt - which included an unfunded $2 to $3 trillion tax cut for the rich - which those same Republican senators voted for.

    The Ukraine issue possesses an urgency which the border issue doesn't. Without a bill, aid will effectively cease by the year end - and Congress shortly goes on holiday.

    As far as the border issue is concerned, these same Republicans again did nothing substantive about it from 2017 to 2019, when they controlled all three branches of the federal government.

    Is there room for a deal ? Perhaps.
    But the idea that the Republicans are negotiating in good faith is delusional.
    To carry over the debate from the last thread, I'd also note that the most urgent part of border control is the supply of illegal fentanyl and its analogues into the US, which is taking a huge toll on society.
    Again, though, that's little to do with immigration, since the bulk of it is smuggled by US citizens.

    Biden has at least reached some form of agreement with China, which supplies most of them, to restrict the supply of the chemical precursors into Mexico.
    Firstly I never made a claim about whether or not the Republicans were negotiating in good faith so I am not sure why you address that.

    The Biden administration needs to negotiate and agree a deal here. So far the US has given Ukraine over 80 billion USD. Of which just over half is in the form of military hardware. This aid package is, again, a mixture of cash and hardware. It is not just a load of obsolete weapons the US would otherwise send for scrap.

    If it is so urgent then the administration need to get their skates on and sort it out. This deal also has aid for Gaza and Israel.

    The Trump administration was fiscally irresponsible so that makes it okay to carry on being fiscally irresponsible. No it doesn't. Debt is fine when it can be afforded and with ZIRP the levels of debt under Trump were far more sustainable than they are now.

    Currently 13% of US Tax dollars goes on debt, in ten years time it is forecast to be 20%.

    You're conflating several issues here - but as far as the debt problems of the US are concerned, Ukraine aid, even if it were doubled, is basically irrelevant.
    (And it's hard to see how a defeat for Ukraine would benefit the US economy over the next decade.)

    As far as getting on with it goes, it's Congress that's stalling. If there is a deal to be done, Biden, as he always has, will do it.

    The reason I raise 'good faith' is that you're implying that this is all within Biden's power. It isn't.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    The basic problem with the Tories is that since 2015 they have been trying to create a Britain that reflects their age-old fantasies in the face of all social, economic and cultural forces to the contrary.

    It’s doomed to failure.

    Yes. The equivalent of that sticky back vinyl stuff which was so popular c. 1955 in the kitchen of modern politics.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887

    The basic problem with the Tories is that since 2015 they have been trying to create a Britain that reflects their age-old fantasies in the face of all social, economic and cultural forces to the contrary.

    It’s doomed to failure.

    The "Back to Basics" politics.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    @LouisDegenhardt

    .@nicholaswatt reports that an ally of Boris Johnson and fmr cabinet minister is suggesting there’s a 3 year timetable for the ‘Bring Back Boris’ movement.

    Sunak loses - new leader fails - Johnson returns

    @estwebber

    It's not an uncommon view right now that the job ambitious Tory MPs want is not the next party leader but the one after that

    @estwebber

    Some feeling among moderate Tories that they're ok for the right to "have" the next leader and flame out
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
    One big difference between the Major/Brown/May examples and Sunak is that Sunak is much younger and has had much less experience in government. That goes a long way to explain the 'lack of a thick skin' needed 'to get on with stuff'.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    @LouisDegenhardt

    .@nicholaswatt reports that an ally of Boris Johnson and fmr cabinet minister is suggesting there’s a 3 year timetable for the ‘Bring Back Boris’ movement.

    Sunak loses - new leader fails - Johnson returns

    @estwebber

    It's not an uncommon view right now that the job ambitious Tory MPs want is not the next party leader but the one after that

    @estwebber

    Some feeling among moderate Tories that they're ok for the right to "have" the next leader and flame out

    Prepare for a popcorn-induced spike in food inflation after the election. The Tory psychodrama is going to be such pure and unalloyed entertainment when it no longer impinges on the running of the country.
  • Options
    I hope the Tories go down in flames, its the least they deserve, but if I was Sunak, a spring election, April or May would definitely be the best option for them, the country has had enough, don't give it another year, for what's left of their support, to give up on them as well
  • Options
    eek said:

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    And the more obvious the nervous breakdown the greater the scale that defeat is going to be

    I'm struggling to see how this Government gets to March to allow an election to be called for May..
    I think they should go in May, and get it over with. They probably won't but I think it would be better for them in the long run. It will be worse if they hang on until November, and the subsequent rebuilding will be more difficult.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9
  • Options
    eristdoof said:

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
    One big difference between the Major/Brown/May examples and Sunak is that Sunak is much younger and has had much less experience in government. That goes a long way to explain the 'lack of a thick skin' needed 'to get on with stuff'.
    Ha Sunak reached the 'smashing office equipment' level yet ?

    The strain shows, say current and former Brown aides: among other things, it has inflamed a temper that has always been the subject of gallows humour among those who work with him.

    The prime minister, 58, has hurled pens and even a stapler at aides, according to one; he also says he once saw the leader of Britain's 61 million people shove a laser printer off a desk in a rage.

    Another aide was warned to watch out for "flying Nokias" when he joined Brown's team.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2009/apr/24/gordon-brown-angry

    Strangely we didn't have civil servants complaining about bullying in those days.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    If anyone wants to hear the Rwanda deal forensically taken apart and with some humour listen to SKS during yesterday's PMQs. Tones of Robin Cook.......

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001t8cn/prime-ministers-questions-06122023
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    @Steven_Swinford

    Suella Braverman denies that she is a ‘headline grabber who spreads poison’, even within her own party

    She says that she is willing to say things that ‘polite society’ does not want to hear
  • Options
    "You need to get a thicker skin" is one of the best bits of developmental feedback there is. Right up there with "You need to flex your style".

    You don't think people would if they knew how to do it?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    eristdoof said:

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
    One big difference between the Major/Brown/May examples and Sunak is that Sunak is much younger and has had much less experience in government. That goes a long way to explain the 'lack of a thick skin' needed 'to get on with stuff'.
    Ha Sunak reached the 'smashing office equipment' level yet ?

    The strain shows, say current and former Brown aides: among other things, it has inflamed a temper that has always been the subject of gallows humour among those who work with him.

    The prime minister, 58, has hurled pens and even a stapler at aides, according to one; he also says he once saw the leader of Britain's 61 million people shove a laser printer off a desk in a rage.

    Another aide was warned to watch out for "flying Nokias" when he joined Brown's team.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2009/apr/24/gordon-brown-angry

    Strangely we didn't have civil servants complaining about bullying in those days.
    Sunak definitely reminds me of Brown, in that he spent all his time making sure he got the top job, but has no absolutely no idea what the hell he was supposed to do after he’d kissed the hand of the monarch. His ‘five pledges’ are 1/5 so far, and he’s not going to be the one getting much of the credit for inflation falling.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,116
    Roger said:

    If anyone wants to hear the Rwanda deal forensically taken apart and with some humour listen to SKS during yesterday's PMQs. Tones of Robin Cook.......

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001t8cn/prime-ministers-questions-06122023

    It is worth thinking about what a "Get Rwanda Done" election would look like in terms of TV debates between the leaders.

    A debate including all the parties would be pretty much 6 or 7 against 1 (if RefUK were there it could hardly support Sunak, as pretty much its "USP" is saying he has failed on immigration).

    But if they held out for a head-to-head debate between Sunak and Starmer, "taken forensically apart" might be an understatement.

    I think the Tories would have to refuse a TV leaders' debate altogether.
  • Options
    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    @hugorifkind

    It's messy, this government. It's a nightmare. It's like Begbie in a bar. Can it not just sit down and have a nice day once in a while, without always causing such a fucking scene?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    eristdoof said:

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    The psychopathology of it all is what I find grimly fascinating. Governments visibly decaying before their appointment with the grim reaper- Major, Brown, May for example- they're not new.

    But they did get on with stuff, however painfully. And the three of them had thick enough skins to endure the daily humiliations. Not always well, but they did endure.

    This feels different. More like the scene in a heist movie where the grift starts to visibly unravel. Except our heroes can't make a run for the airport.

    And Rishi, talented in many ways, can't really put "thick skin" on his list of attributes.

    It's going to be a long run-up to the election.
    One big difference between the Major/Brown/May examples and Sunak is that Sunak is much younger and has had much less experience in government. That goes a long way to explain the 'lack of a thick skin' needed 'to get on with stuff'.
    Ha Sunak reached the 'smashing office equipment' level yet ?

    The strain shows, say current and former Brown aides: among other things, it has inflamed a temper that has always been the subject of gallows humour among those who work with him.

    The prime minister, 58, has hurled pens and even a stapler at aides, according to one; he also says he once saw the leader of Britain's 61 million people shove a laser printer off a desk in a rage.

    Another aide was warned to watch out for "flying Nokias" when he joined Brown's team.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2009/apr/24/gordon-brown-angry

    Strangely we didn't have civil servants complaining about bullying in those days.
    Sunak definitely reminds me of Brown, in that he spent all his time making sure he got the top job, but has no absolutely no idea what the hell he was supposed to do after he’d kissed the hand of the monarch. His ‘five pledges’ are 1/5 so far, and he’s not going to be the one getting much of the credit for inflation falling.
    Political philosophies are developed in opposition.

    Prime Ministers at the end of a term of government have to focus on crisis management - both for the government and for their party.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    mickydroy said:

    I hope the Tories go down in flames, its the least they deserve, but if I was Sunak, a spring election, April or May would definitely be the best option for them, the country has had enough, don't give it another year, for what's left of their support, to give up on them as well

    Sunak isn't giving up six months in power unless the polls sharply narrow
  • Options

    "You need to get a thicker skin" is one of the best bits of developmental feedback there is. Right up there with "You need to flex your style".

    You don't think people would if they knew how to do it?

    It's a lousy PD target, often used by bad employers for staff they don't like.

    And you're right- there's not a lot you can do about it, beyond learning to control your breathing.

    But you usually develop it by failing and surviving. In politics, that means standing for your party somewhere hopeless. Or having to defend a policy disaster as a junior minister when hardly anyone is in the Commons chamber.

    All the stuff Rishi missed out on, in other words. In a parallel universe, he's currently a junior minister and a tasty 80-1 tip for the next Conservative PM.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980

    The basic problem with the Tories is that since 2015 they have been trying to create a Britain that reflects their age-old fantasies in the face of all social, economic and cultural forces to the contrary.

    It’s doomed to failure.

    Have they? Apart from Brexit which even the Tory leader at the time opposed they haven't done anything of the sort
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I suspect even felix would blush before giving that one a 'like'
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    After nearly fifteen years, I have cancelled my subscription to The Times as they have made me barf this morning.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-hush-money-interview-ndxngp602

    I’ve cancelled it because it’s now shite
    Are you jealous that they now have Brooklyn Beckham doing travel writing ?

    I take my computer with me wherever I go because Nicola and I love watching TV shows and always have a series on the go. If we’re staying in a hotel then we’ll get room service — my go-to order is chicken and chips with an ice water; Nicola goes for fruit and ice cream — and binge-watch something like Sex and the City or Gilmore Girls in the evening.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brooklyn-peltz-beckham-i-loved-summers-in-spain-with-my-nan-lj0klt6jd
    My god that is bad
    I do subscribe to The Times, and enjoy it, but everything about that review depresses me.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    edited December 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    At the end of the day most voters want to stop the boats crossing the Channel. The new £38k minimum salary cap will help control immigration too.

    They don't want British troops lives lost for a nation that is not even a Commonwealth realm now without a UN mandate
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,116
    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone.

    Would you like me to try to find Suella Braverman's email address for you?
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I'd say the government has got the energy price issue decisions pretty good as well in the balance between helping people generally, helping the disadvantaged in particular and encouraging energy efficiency.

    A big increase in NHS employment as well - though it doesn't seem to realise it has achieved something the public want.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,906
    edited December 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    Well then those families can pay their reparations and repay the loans, & if that includes ol' Charlie they can fund it from their private wealth and not the Crown. It's not something that should come within an inch of the current UK taxpayer. Christ knows we're poor enough already.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I suspect even felix would blush before giving that one a 'like'
    I will manfully struggle on without your "like" Roger, it won't be easy but you know, I'll cope. sob.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    edited December 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    Which was agreed even before 1832 and universal suffrage. Had that been an election issue they would
    have rejected paying that too (and as you say it is now paid
    off).

    If any compensation is claimed it can be claimed from descendsnts of slaveowners who received that compensation from British taxpayers
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    HYUFD said:

    mickydroy said:

    I hope the Tories go down in flames, its the least they deserve, but if I was Sunak, a spring election, April or May would definitely be the best option for them, the country has had enough, don't give it another year, for what's left of their support, to give up on them as well

    Sunak isn't giving up six months in power unless the polls sharply narrow
    January 2025 or just maybe November 2024 it is then.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,947
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    At the end of the day most voters want to stop the boats crossing the Channel. The new £38k minimum salary cap will help control immigration too.

    They don't want British troops lives lost for a nation that is not even a Commonwealth realm now without a UN mandate
    Really - I doubt 90% of the country care about immigrants on boats - albeit it’s definitely an issue for Kent and surrounding counties.

    On the other point you are equally wrong - the last country I want invading somewhere else to claim that areas oil is Venezuela - for multiple reasons, one of which is they are crap at extracting it
  • Options

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    Yes the ingratitude is quite striking.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    Well then those families can pay their reparations and repay the loans, & if that includes ol' Charlie they can fund it from their private wealth and not the Crown. It's not something that should come within an inch of the current UK taxpayer. Christ knows we're poor enough already.
    Nevertheless, the precedent has been established of the rest of us paying up for the sins of British criminals. Which was in part my entirely objective factual point.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
    Descendants of Brits enslaved by the Romans, Vikings and Barbary Corsairs can presumably also claim compensation from Italy, Denmark and Tunisia?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    The masters ought to have compensated the slaves, as Thaddeus Stevens later suggested, in the USA. But that was politically impossible at the time. In effect, the slavers were paid a ransom. Waiting until public opinion came around to more radical proposals would have meant keeping slavery going for another generation.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    Which was agreed even before 1832 and universal suffrage. Had that been an election issue they would
    have rejected paying that too (and as you say it is now paid
    off).

    If any compensation is claimed it can be claimed from descendsnts of slaveowners who received that compensation from British taxpayers
    The precedent has been established - and the fact that the money went to the wrong people doesn't change the fact that the precedent was established.

    An interesting situation, to put it mildly.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    At the end of the day most voters want to stop the boats crossing the Channel. The new £38k minimum salary cap will help control immigration too.

    They don't want British troops lives lost for a nation that is not even a Commonwealth realm now without a UN mandate
    Has Guyana left the Commonwealth? I must admit I’m not up to date with the comings and goings.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,947

    eek said:

    Cicero said:

    Rwanda is a gimmick, and not serious as policy. It would have been stupid to make it a die-in-a-ditch cause of an election, as the subsequent campaign would have ripped the policy to shreds and made the Tories look ridiculous as well as venomous.

    Mind you the adolescents of CCHQ still think the "power stance" for ministers actually works, rather than making them look simply absurd, so they could even have been planning to do it. Jenrick quitting reveals that even the Tories know that the Rwanda policy is a dead duck.

    The problem now is that the Tories are beginning to have a nervous breakdown in the face of an epochal defeat.

    And the more obvious the nervous breakdown the greater the scale that defeat is going to be

    I'm struggling to see how this Government gets to March to allow an election to be called for May..
    I think they should go in May, and get it over with. They probably won't but I think it would be better for them in the long run. It will be worse if they hang on until November, and the subsequent rebuilding will be more difficult.
    The May local elections are going to be bad for the Tories, they are going to lose some regional mayors and a fair number of council seats.

    That is going to make May onwards very difficult for Rishi which is why they should (but probably won’t) go for May
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited December 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    At the end of the day most voters want to stop the boats crossing the Channel. The new £38k minimum salary cap will help control immigration too.

    They don't want British troops lives lost for a nation that is not even a Commonwealth realm now without a UN mandate
    Has Guyana left the Commonwealth? I must admit I’m not up to date with the comings and goings.
    The Commonwealth seem to think Guyana is a member but HYUFD might know better.

    https://thecommonwealth.org/our-member-countries
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Rend le Rwanda formidable, plus encore.

    A snap Rwanda themed election is magnificently bonkers even by the standards of the 2016+ tories but I can't see it ending in anything other than a cataract of delicious blue tears. At some point in the election campaign they are going to be asked why they are allowing in 1.5m legal immigrants but pissing iron filings over a few thousand caminantes.

    Big Rish would be better off having a military adventure in Guyana. Commonwealth country, Anglophone and all that. There is a 1 in 40 chance that it would all work out just fine with a bloodless victory.

    At the end of the day most voters want to stop the boats crossing the Channel. The new £38k minimum salary cap will help control immigration too.

    They don't want British troops lives lost for a nation that is not even a Commonwealth realm now without a UN mandate
    Has Guyana left the Commonwealth? I must admit I’m not up to date with the comings and goings.
    The Commonwealth thinks not!

    https://thecommonwealth.org/our-member-countries/guyana

    The weasel word is 'realm' - because it doesn't bow down to KCIII as head of state, HYUFD thinks IT DOESN'T COUNT.
  • Options
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
    An irony being that West African countries were trying to get on the grifting train as well.

    Presumably wanting compensation for their ancestors being stopped from slave trading.

    I wonder given Guyana's demographics whether India and/or Nigeria might use it as an opportunity to strut on the world stage.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    Which was agreed even before 1832 and universal suffrage. Had that been an election issue they would
    have rejected paying that too (and as you say it is now paid
    off).

    If any compensation is claimed it can be claimed from descendsnts of slaveowners who received that compensation from British taxpayers
    The precedent has been established - and the fact that the money went to the wrong people doesn't change the fact that the precedent was established.

    An interesting situation, to put it mildly.
    It was preferable to the US solution (fight a war in which 600,000 die).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I'd say the government has got the energy price issue decisions pretty good as well in the balance between helping people generally, helping the disadvantaged in particular and encouraging energy efficiency.

    A big increase in NHS employment as well - though it doesn't seem to realise it has achieved something the public want.
    I personally thought that the government spent too much on subsidising the cost of energy and any relief should have been more focused on the poor. I am also seeing very little sign that the large increase in employment and spending on the NHS is helping that benighted institution improve its performance. I am not suggesting that things are great, just that this wall to wall gloom and despondency is overdone.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    Yes, except that there’s a large disconnect between the economic statistics and how the average person is feeling.

    To paraphrase Mr Reagan, the average person very much doesn’t feel better off than they did four years ago, something that’s true for both the US and UK.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone.

    Would you like me to try to find Suella Braverman's email address for you?
    No, her (and Jenrick) not being a part of the government any longer was definitely a step in the right direction. Nock Robinson got that bang on, she is poisonous.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
    Telling taxpayers they have to cough up twice the UK’s GDP so that a bunch of grifters can live in luxury would be a bold move on the part of any government.
  • Options

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    What the f*** did I just read?
    A message from the League of Empire Loyalists.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I suspect even felix would blush before giving that one a 'like'
    I will manfully struggle on without your "like" Roger, it won't be easy but you know, I'll cope. sob.
    At least it showed I read it and I have got a soft spot for for those unlike Jenrick who go down with the ship.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    Yes, except that there’s a large disconnect between the economic statistics and how the average person is feeling.

    To paraphrase Mr Reagan, the average person very much doesn’t feel better off than they did four years ago, something that’s true for both the US and UK.
    Normally that is because people have a bias that way but in this case its absolutely true. Although real wages are rising now there is a long way to go before the loss in real terms over the last 4 years is recovered and even longer until that increase in enough to pay the additional tax imposed on those earnings. But that is the price of a pandemic and a slightly overblown response to it. We are poorer because we spent £400bn dealing with Covid and the cost of that debt is increasing.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,906
    edited December 2023
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I'd say the government has got the energy price issue decisions pretty good as well in the balance between helping people generally, helping the disadvantaged in particular and encouraging energy efficiency.

    A big increase in NHS employment as well - though it doesn't seem to realise it has achieved something the public want.
    I personally thought that the government spent too much on subsidising the cost of energy and any relief should have been more focused on the poor. I am also seeing very little sign that the large increase in employment and spending on the NHS is helping that benighted institution improve its performance. I am not suggesting that things are great, just that this wall to wall gloom and despondency is overdone.
    Seeing as I was on a fixed contract throughout the period of aid I'd have to agree ;D

    @Carnyx

    Our convo is precisely why the debate won't be reopened even for the families of slave owners to pay anything back.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I'd say the government has got the energy price issue decisions pretty good as well in the balance between helping people generally, helping the disadvantaged in particular and encouraging energy efficiency.

    A big increase in NHS employment as well - though it doesn't seem to realise it has achieved something the public want.
    I personally thought that the government spent too much on subsidising the cost of energy and any relief should have been more focused on the poor. I am also seeing very little sign that the large increase in employment and spending on the NHS is helping that benighted institution improve its performance. I am not suggesting that things are great, just that this wall to wall gloom and despondency is overdone.
    Large increases of spending on any organisation or sector are rarely efficient.

    Focusing exclusively on the poor for energy subsidies loses support for them generally - people are happier 'paying in' if they're getting something back in return even if its much less than they're 'paying in'.

    And things are great for many millions as well as being pretty difficult for many millions of others.

    But a difference is that some demographics and doing better or worse than they traditionally have.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    Yes, except that there’s a large disconnect between the economic statistics and how the average person is feeling.

    To paraphrase Mr Reagan, the average person very much doesn’t feel better off than they did four years ago, something that’s true for both the US and UK.
    Normally that is because people have a bias that way but in this case its absolutely true. Although real wages are rising now there is a long way to go before the loss in real terms over the last 4 years is recovered and even longer until that increase in enough to pay the additional tax imposed on those earnings. But that is the price of a pandemic and a slightly overblown response to it. We are poorer because we spent £400bn dealing with Covid and the cost of that debt is increasing.
    Oh indeed, which is why incumbent governments everywhere are getting hammered at the moment. They all thought that interest rates would be zero forever, and the spike in inflation after the huge cost of the pandemic has screwed every Western government’s finances.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    Absolutely not unless they want an avalanche of even further defections to ReformUK.

    British taxpayers aren't going to pay a penny for something that happened centuries ago and which the British led the way in abolishing
    Er, British taxpayers have been paying vast sums within my lifetime for slavery. Paid off in 2015, so presumably within your lifetime too, young HYUFD.

    Trouble is, the money went to the criminals.

    Well then those families can pay their reparations and repay the loans, & if that includes ol' Charlie they can fund it from their private wealth and not the Crown. It's not something that should come within an inch of the current UK taxpayer. Christ knows we're poor enough already.
    If a person feels guilt at the fact that their family fortune was based upon slavery, then the best thing they could do is to donate to organisations that combat modern human trafficking, rather than to give money to people who don't need it.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    edited December 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
    Descendants of Brits enslaved by the Romans, Vikings and Barbary Corsairs can presumably also claim compensation from Italy, Denmark and Tunisia?
    Can you name a single one of those descendants?
    Otoh all you'd need is a Carribean phone directory to identify the descendants of our 'commercial activities'.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    I suspect even felix would blush before giving that one a 'like'
    I will manfully struggle on without your "like" Roger, it won't be easy but you know, I'll cope. sob.
    Struggling to see exactly what Roger finds so egregious about David's fairly measured and considered post there. I'll give it a 'like' if Roger won't. Oh, it appears several people already have.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    edited December 2023
    Very interesting article by Peter Kellner questioning RefUK polling strength by comparing Ipsos polling with the others. I'm in the camp that believes Ref polling is well overstated. Interesting take on the Greens in there though, as I had felt they are also overstated.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/64196/are-the-reform-partys-polling-numbers-as-good-as-they-seem

    Backed up by actual elections too. "However, recent evidence from actual elections tilts the debate in favour of Ipsos. In this May’s local elections, the Greens gained 241 council seats, Reform just two. In parliamentary byelections in the past two years, Reform’s best result was 5.4 per cent in Tamworth. The Greens won almost twice that in Somerton and Frome: 10.2 per cent."

    This is important because polling performance can have a positive feedback effect. You rise in the polls, at least apparently, and it raises your profile and potentially makes more people choose you.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2023
    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that this "the government is totally useless" meme is somewhat overdone. Yes, we are bored to tears with them, yes their priorities tend towards the weird, yes piss ups and breweries come to mind along with shortages of drink, but actually things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think.

    We have very low unemployment, we have rapidly falling inflation, we have moderate growth rather than the forecast recession, the living wage is rising quite quickly in nominal and real terms reducing income disparities, the government has finally taken a modest step towards reducing the penalisation of earned income, things are just not as bad as they are being painted.

    We were briefly discussing the same phenomenon last week in the context of Biden who has an extremely hostile press despite having an even better economic record. Our media both in the US as well as here have lost any sense of proportion and I rather think that some on this site have also.

    If you're right, and the government is getting little or no credit for an improving economic situation, why is this?

    Could it possibly be because all they seem to talk or care about is ******* SMALL BOATS?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,576
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
    Perhaps reparations in the form of military aid?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,121
    ...
    Scott_xP said:

    @LouisDegenhardt

    .@nicholaswatt reports that an ally of Boris Johnson and fmr cabinet minister is suggesting there’s a 3 year timetable for the ‘Bring Back Boris’ movement.

    Sunak loses - new leader fails - Johnson returns

    @estwebber

    It's not an uncommon view right now that the job ambitious Tory MPs want is not the next party leader but the one after that

    @estwebber

    Some feeling among moderate Tories that they're ok for the right to "have" the next leader and flame out

    Of course Johnson has to overcome a second day of witch hunting today. I thought he equipped himself well with the rehearsed questions. The BBC news loved him. He did lose his s*** when Hugo went off-piste, but practice made perfect. I particularly liked the tearful reaction to all those dead people in 2020. That was Operational Big Dog Resurrection gold.

    I am hoping Mr Keith puts pay to any thoughts of a Johnson revival today.
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    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    What the f*** did I just read?
    The truth.

    Inconvenient it might be to some.

    Slavery ended in 1838 and the slave trade in 1807.

    And the descendants of the slaves own/control those countries.

    The abolition of slavery in the British Empire went pretty well and with better long term consequences than it did in most other places.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Are the Tories going to yield on reparations for slavery to commonwealth nations. Interesting comment from the PM of tiny island nation, Barbados who are demanding just under 5 Trillion USD.

    "Mottley met David Cameron earlier on Tuesday but would not give details of the foreign secretary’s thoughts on the UK’s slavery-related debt.

    “I’m not going to get into the details of our conversation but suffice to say I think the foreign secretary will take his lead from his majesty,” she said."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/barbados-pm-says-country-owed-4-9tn-as-she-makes-fresh-call-for-reparations/ar-AA1l76X0?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f47f9f6870da40de92e477a56cc15309&ei=9

    One bizarre thing are claims that slaves never received compensation.

    The West Indies are now a collection of mostly independent black republics - effectively West African colonies which are far more affluent and developed than West Africa itself.

    The descendants of the slaves got the countries.
    I suspect a few politicians are just jumping on a bandwaggon eyeing up a potential payday on the back of guilt shaming western nations.

    The President of Guyana was making such demands recently. Now he may need our help I wonder if he will change his tune.
    Descendants of Brits enslaved by the Romans, Vikings and Barbary Corsairs can presumably also claim compensation from Italy, Denmark and Tunisia?
    Can you name a single one of those descendants?
    Otoh all you'd need is a Carribean phone directory to identify the descendants of our 'commercial activities'.
    Not sure about the name, but I do have a Roman nose.
This discussion has been closed.