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Nikki Haley could be the Republican that stops Trump – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited December 2023 in General
Nikki Haley could be the Republican that stops Trump – politicalbetting.com

Nikki Haley moves to a 5.8% net favourability lead over both Trump and Biden. She's the only one surely who can beat Trump for the GOP nomination https://t.co/mlmH50AOxC pic.twitter.com/qJfZP8bzFk

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Comments

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2023
    FPT
    moonshine said:

    What does a 4-way race loon like in the electoral college? (Biden, Haley, and independent runs from Kennedy and Trump).

    I would say Biden landslide. Once the voters know who he is, Kennedy takes from the edgy contrarian vote that would otherwise mostly go to Trump or DNV. Trump and Haley split the GOP vote. Haley cleaves off a little bit of no-Trumper ex-GOP vote off from Biden but not much, as she has to sound quite Trumpist to avoid getting squeezed by Trump. So I think Biden hangs on to close to 40% which is easily enough if the rest is split like that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002
    Second like Haley.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2023
    I posted this discussion on Biden's chances a few days ago with Nate Silver on the New Liberal podcast. One of the things the Neoliberal guy mentions is that net favourability ratings seem to be best if you're only somewhat known; If nobody's heard of you then you don't get many favourables, but once you get to the other end of the scale and become very well-known you also get a lot of unfavourables. This is also the thing to be careful about with some of the highly-rated Biden alternatives like Gretchen Whitmer.

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9uZW9saWJwb2RjYXN0LmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/M2QyMjZhNTMtNjlkYS00NTFjLWFkNDItZjgzMzM5NWY0MmJj?sa=X&ved=0CAQQ8qgGahcKEwjQs9f_2fKCAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ

    So I think there's a good reason to think that Haley's ratings would drop if ended up in a head-to-head with Donald Trump. But I do think she's impressive; She was one of the only people to come out of a job with the Trump administration with her reputation intact. And although Trump is obviously the favourite for the primary, early states often surprise and if she beats him in a couple of those then we're off to the races.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    I posted this discussion on Biden's chances a few days ago with Nate Silver on the New Liberal podcast. One of the things the Neoliberal guy mentions is that net favourability ratings seem to be best if you're only somewhat known; If nobody's heard of you then you don't get many favourables, but once you get to the other end of the scale and become very well-known you also get a lot of unfavourables. This is also the thing to be careful about with some of the highly-rated Biden alternatives like Gretchen Whitmer.

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9uZW9saWJwb2RjYXN0LmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/M2QyMjZhNTMtNjlkYS00NTFjLWFkNDItZjgzMzM5NWY0MmJj?sa=X&ved=0CAQQ8qgGahcKEwjQs9f_2fKCAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ

    So I think there's a good reason to think that Haley's ratings would drop if ended up in a head-to-head with Donald Trump. But I do think she's impressive; She was one of the only people to come out of a job with the Trump administration with her reputation intact. And although Trump is obviously the favourite for the primary, early states often surprise and if she beats him in a couple of those then we're off to the races.

    Yes, I think that true. Its the same here.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    If Haley defeats (or looks on course to defeat) Trump do we seriously think he will accept that with quiet dignity? He will throw his rattle out of the pram and cause complete havoc. I am not sure primary system can contain that.
  • The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
  • Jonathan said:

    If Haley defeats (or looks on course to defeat) Trump do we seriously think he will accept that with quiet dignity? He will throw his rattle out of the pram and cause complete havoc. I am not sure primary system can contain that.

    The dogs bark but the caravan moves on? Obviously he'd say he woz robbed and it would be a fun convention, but if he hasn't got the votes then he hasn't got the votes.

    The real question would be whether he tried to run as an independent, but even if he wants to that seems hard because of the sore loser laws and so forth. The rational thing to do would be to bargain with Haley for a pardon, but at that point I guess we'd find out how rational he is.
  • The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,773
    From the Times this morning. This is it. The eschaton is here and all will be judged according to their gnosis and worldly actions.




  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,556
    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


  • Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Preparing for the big change. No surgery involved I hope.




  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,474

    Jonathan said:

    If Haley defeats (or looks on course to defeat) Trump do we seriously think he will accept that with quiet dignity? He will throw his rattle out of the pram and cause complete havoc. I am not sure primary system can contain that.

    The dogs bark but the caravan moves on? Obviously he'd say he woz robbed and it would be a fun convention, but if he hasn't got the votes then he hasn't got the votes.

    The real question would be whether he tried to run as an independent, but even if he wants to that seems hard because of the sore loser laws and so forth. The rational thing to do would be to bargain with Haley for a pardon, but at that point I guess we'd find out how rational he is.
    Even if he doesn’t run as an independent, he will constantly distract from Haley (or whoever), criticise her, drive down Republican turnout, launch quixotic lawsuits, demand loyalty pledges from House and Senate candidates, etc. etc. All great news for the Dems.

    The idea that he’ll bargain for a pardon, as I’ve said before, I’m not buying it. Even if he made some sort of agreement, it would take less than a week for him to break whatever terms were agreed. He cannot stop himself bloviating.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    I posted this discussion on Biden's chances a few days ago with Nate Silver on the New Liberal podcast. One of the things the Neoliberal guy mentions is that net favourability ratings seem to be best if you're only somewhat known; If nobody's heard of you then you don't get many favourables, but once you get to the other end of the scale and become very well-known you also get a lot of unfavourables. This is also the thing to be careful about with some of the highly-rated Biden alternatives like Gretchen Whitmer.

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9uZW9saWJwb2RjYXN0LmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/M2QyMjZhNTMtNjlkYS00NTFjLWFkNDItZjgzMzM5NWY0MmJj?sa=X&ved=0CAQQ8qgGahcKEwjQs9f_2fKCAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ

    So I think there's a good reason to think that Haley's ratings would drop if ended up in a head-to-head with Donald Trump. But I do think she's impressive; She was one of the only people to come out of a job with the Trump administration with her reputation intact. And although Trump is obviously the favourite for the primary, early states often surprise and if she beats him in a couple of those then we're off to the races.

    The "generic Republican" (or Democrat) usually outpolls their flesh and blood competition.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    From the Times this morning. This is it. The eschaton is here and all will be judged according to their gnosis and worldly actions.




    Schnapps with Shapps is zingy.

    Bevvy with Cleverly
    Fizz with Liz
    Perry with Penny
    Glűhwein with Gove
    Arak with Jack
    Punch up with Cameron

    The last is just a bit of advice,
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Dura_Ace said:

    From the Times this morning. This is it. The eschaton is here and all will be judged according to their gnosis and worldly actions.



    Shits for Shapps would be a similarly alliterative slogan for the inevitable campaign.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    Thatcher was the greatest peacetime prime minister in the modern era, by a distance - to my mind - but even I agree it is quite odd how everyone references her 4 decades later

    Is there any other other major democracy so obsessed with such an historically distant politician?

    I can’t think of one. Not Reagan or Clinton. Not Schroeder or kohl. Not Mitterrand or giscard

    Thatcher seems unique. She is also hero worshipped by the right in the USA, no other UK politician (with the obvious exception of Churchill) merits a passing glance
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Dura_Ace said:

    From the Times this morning. This is it. The eschaton is here and all will be judged according to their gnosis and worldly actions.




    Schnapps with Shapps is zingy.

    Bevvy with Cleverly
    Fizz with Liz
    Perry with Penny
    Glűhwein with Gove
    Arak with Jack
    Punch up with Cameron

    The last is just a bit of advice,
    The Russians have missed a trick when it comes to

    Hootin’ with Putin

    Going round to Vlad’s dacha for a massive coke bender
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,773

    Dura_Ace said:

    From the Times this morning. This is it. The eschaton is here and all will be judged according to their gnosis and worldly actions.




    Schnapps with Shapps is zingy.

    Bevvy with Cleverly
    Fizz with Liz
    Perry with Penny
    Glűhwein with Gove
    Arak with Jack
    Punch up with Cameron

    The last is just a bit of advice,
    Chemsex with Kemi
    Jenkem with Jenrick
    Assisted Suicide with Sunak
    Take Your Library Books Back with Steve Barclay
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    We have grey politicians right now. Because we wanted them after a period of lunatics.

    Trying to associate oneself with a non-grey, charismatic leader is a classic grey man ploy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    The next PB CEO. Or was that sociopath.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Macron is visiting Doha


    “Macron had planned to make an extensive tour of the Middle East but instead held meetings about the conflict on the sidelines of UN climate talks.

    Neither Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu nor Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas attended the Dubai summit.

    In October, Macron met with Netanyahu in Israel.

    Analysts say Macron’s visits to Dubai and Doha illustrate the difficulty his government faces in finding a way to influence the conflict.

    “France and Macron are not really finding their place in this crisis,” said Agnes Levallois, vice-president of the Institute for Mediterranean Middle East Research and Studies.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/03/israel-hamas-war-live-israeli-attacks-on-gaza-continue-overnight-macron-warns-israels-plan-to-eliminate-hamas-risks-decade-of-war

    At least the UK is not alone in its cringeworthy delusions of post-imperial importance
  • TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    We have grey politicians right now. Because we wanted them after a period of lunatics.

    Trying to associate oneself with a non-grey, charismatic leader is a classic grey man ploy.
    Associating SKS with Mrs Thatcher, whom half the country hated even as the other half loved her, is a special kind of Mandelsonian stupidity, especially when SKS needs the votes of the first group. And do you know where Mrs Thatcher is most hated, and where Labour most needs votes to defeat the Scottish National Party?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited December 2023

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    We have grey politicians right now. Because we wanted them after a period of lunatics.

    Trying to associate oneself with a non-grey, charismatic leader is a classic grey man ploy.
    Associating SKS with Mrs Thatcher, whom half the country hated even as the other half loved her, is a special kind of Mandelsonian stupidity, especially when SKS needs the votes of the first group. And do you know where Mrs Thatcher is most hated, and where Labour most needs votes to defeat the Scottish National Party?
    You are missing the politics of it. She was voted into power several times and enacted policies she said she was going to enact. "Hated" is language from the JCR. Most people will acknowledge a principled politician and a woman leader at a time when there weren't many around.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    A sensible point to consider is that she managed to move The System to a new equilibrium point.

    Getting environmental concerns embedded into the structure of government, for example. To read the minutes of civil servants sneering about acid rain mitigation….

    Even if you don’t like the policies, it is worth considering how you create long lasting change.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    We have grey politicians right now. Because we wanted them after a period of lunatics.

    Trying to associate oneself with a non-grey, charismatic leader is a classic grey man ploy.
    Associating SKS with Mrs Thatcher, whom half the country hated even as the other half loved her, is a special kind of Mandelsonian stupidity, especially when SKS needs the votes of the first group. And do you know where Mrs Thatcher is most hated, and where Labour most needs votes to defeat the Scottish National Party?
    You are missing the politics of it. She was voted into power several times and enacted policies she said she was going to enact. "Hated" is language from the JCR. Most people will acknowledge a principled politician and a woman leader at a time when there weren't many around.
    Labour needs votes, not acknowledgement. It is you, Starmer and Mandelson who have the politics wrong. And take your JCR sneer and shove it up your google search for Thatcher Loved and Hated or some such.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    Thatcher was the greatest peacetime prime minister in the modern era, by a distance - to my mind - but even I agree it is quite odd how everyone references her 4 decades later

    Is there any other other major democracy so obsessed with such an historically distant politician?

    I can’t think of one. Not Reagan or Clinton. Not Schroeder or kohl. Not Mitterrand or giscard

    Thatcher seems unique. She is also hero worshipped by the right in the USA, no other UK politician (with the obvious exception of Churchill) merits a passing glance
    Russia and Stalin.

    Despite its disinterested voters, it is still a democracy. Just not one you'd want to live in.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    Thatcher was the greatest peacetime prime minister in the modern era, by a distance - to my mind - but even I agree it is quite odd how everyone references her 4 decades later

    Is there any other other major democracy so obsessed with such an historically distant politician?

    I can’t think of one. Not Reagan or Clinton. Not Schroeder or kohl. Not Mitterrand or giscard

    Thatcher seems unique. She is also hero worshipped by the right in the USA, no other UK politician (with the obvious exception of Churchill) merits a passing glance
    I have always felt that part of the US love affair with Thatcher stems from the 1st Gulf War. The US, even nearly 20 years on, was still suffering from doubts after Vietnam. However, with remarkably bad timing for him, Saddam invaded Kuwait whilst MT was visiting the US. She was widely credited at the time with the initial robustness of the Bush response - and keeping him on track when the crunches came, e.g. the "No time to go wobbly" phone call.

    Trump might keep claiming to Make America Great Again but, in a very real sense Thatcher contributed to that 30 years ago and many still recall that time.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Checkbox metrics are not good, being inherently subjective.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited December 2023
    In net favourability terms Haley may be slightly better but in actual favourability terms she trails even DeSantis, as well as Biden and Trump.

    She doesn't have the core supporters she needs it seems that Trump does to win the Republican primaries and caucuses. Even if she did Trump would almost certainly run as an Independent anyway, handing re election to Biden on a plate under the US FPTP EC system
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955
    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Not an obsession, but I too love pocket knives and similar. I think it stems from a childhood spent camping.

    I have a beautiful Laguiole corkscrew that I simply love to handle too.

    My most evil knife is my sailors knife, designed for cutting ropes in an emergency, which I keep on a cord in my buoyancy aid.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    His target is Tory 2019 voters in marginal seats not Labour core voters. Even Brown invited Thatcher to tea
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    ...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    Cyclefree said:

    Completely snowed in now. Cannot open front door. Managed to open back door and collect wood for fire. It is quite beautiful outside. There is a magical stillness in a snow covered landscape.

    Fortunately the main road nearby seems to have been cleared. So at least we can walk to the town, even it will take an hour or so.

    Anyway, this article is well worth reading.

    https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23964156.questions-remain-scottish-handling-post-office-horizon-scandal/

    It makes 3 important points:-

    1. Scotland does not have the same rebuttable presumption that computer evidence is reliable unless the defendant proves otherwise.
    2. Scottish prosecutors had doubts about Horizon evidence and did not therefore prosecute.
    3. The Post Office in Scotland could not run its own prosecutions so there was some independent review - and attempt to comply with the rules - of the type so dismally lacking in England & Wales.

    Bluntly the PO was not able to subvert the Scottish criminal justice system in the way that it did elsewhere. Though the evidence in recent days suggests that the PO did try to by trying to bully Scottish prosecutors.

    It makes Ministers' refusal to look again at the computer evidence presumption even more unconscionable than it is.



    Will Mellor, Toby Jones and Monica Dolan in new ITV drama on Post Office scandal
    "‘You can’t believe it’s true’ - Will Mellor on the frightening real-life story behind Mr Bates vs the Post Office | Virgin Radio UK" https://virginradio.co.uk/entertainment/128150/will-mellor-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-unbelievable-story
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955
    edited December 2023
    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    His target is Tory 2019 voters in marginal seats not Labour core voters. Even Brown invited Thatcher to tea
    I know what he thinks he is doing, I just don't believe people will fall for it. "He so admired Thatcher that he joined to the Labour Party in order to do the exact opposite of what she would have done."

    I'll be quite surprised if some enterprising journalist hasn't found quotes of Starmer slating Thatcher by lunchtime.
  • Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Preparing for the big change. No surgery involved I hope.




    Dame Keiri di Thatchawa.
  • glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    Leave aside the audience Starmer is writing for... People who Labour could do with winning over, remember?

    One of the gotcha questions in debates is "what do you respect/admire about your opponent?" It's always dismal when Cox can't think of anything good to say about Box.

    And the bottom line is that la Thatch did change things, initially in the face of a not great inheritance. Much of it was disliked, and thoughtful Conservatives ought to admit that some of it planted seeds for our current woes.

    But the change was real.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    We have grey politicians right now. Because we wanted them after a period of lunatics.

    Trying to associate oneself with a non-grey, charismatic leader is a classic grey man ploy.
    Associating SKS with Mrs Thatcher, whom half the country hated even as the other half loved her, is a special kind of Mandelsonian stupidity, especially when SKS needs the votes of the first group. And do you know where Mrs Thatcher is most hated, and where Labour most needs votes to defeat the Scottish National Party?
    Tactical votes from the Scottish Tories most of whom liked Thatcher?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Yeah because sucking up to Mrs Thatcher really boosted Gordon Brown. Not. FFS stop listening to Peter bloody Mandelson. He was wrong then; he is wrong now.
    Going on about Thatcher for either good or bad just typifies how backward looking our country can be. Revisiting the history of 40 years ago when the economics and challenges of today are very different is just pointless.
    Thatcher was the greatest peacetime prime minister in the modern era, by a distance - to my mind - but even I agree it is quite odd how everyone references her 4 decades later

    Is there any other other major democracy so obsessed with such an historically distant politician?

    I can’t think of one. Not Reagan or Clinton. Not Schroeder or kohl. Not Mitterrand or giscard

    Thatcher seems unique. She is also hero worshipped by the right in the USA, no other UK politician (with the obvious exception of Churchill) merits a passing glance
    I have always felt that part of the US love affair with Thatcher stems from the 1st Gulf War. The US, even nearly 20 years on, was still suffering from doubts after Vietnam. However, with remarkably bad timing for him, Saddam invaded Kuwait whilst MT was visiting the US. She was widely credited at the time with the initial robustness of the Bush response - and keeping him on track when the crunches came, e.g. the "No time to go wobbly" phone call.

    Trump might keep claiming to Make America Great Again but, in a very real sense Thatcher contributed to that 30 years ago and many still recall that time.
    I wonder if Thatcher is iconic because she is the primary post WW2 example of a democratic leader who took a country in decline, arrested that decline, and then reversed it (or at least that is the perception)

    Now the whole western world is in decline so a Thatcher figure seems even more attractive, to many

    A kind of Rex Quondam, Rex Futurae
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,420
    edited December 2023
    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    His target is Tory 2019 voters in marginal seats not Labour core voters. Even Brown invited Thatcher to tea
    Yes and inviting Mrs Thatcher to tea did Brown no good, and the voters Labour needs in Scotland, the Red Wall and possibly even the Blue Wall did not vote for Mrs Thatcher. We can see why SKS is doing it but it is likely to be counterproductive for fairly obvious reasons.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited December 2023
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Not an obsession, but I too love pocket knives and similar. I think it stems from a childhood spent camping.

    I have a beautiful Laguiole corkscrew that I simply love to handle too.

    My most evil knife is my sailors knife, designed for cutting ropes in an emergency, which I keep on a cord in my buoyancy aid.
    Delighted albeit surprised to see Ipswich tussling with your team for second tier top spot this Christmas, Foxy
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342
    Cyclefree said:

    Completely snowed in now. Cannot open front door. Managed to open back door and collect wood for fire. It is quite beautiful outside. There is a magical stillness in a snow covered landscape.

    Fortunately the main road nearby seems to have been cleared. So at least we can walk to the town, even it will take an hour or so.

    Anyway, this article is well worth reading.

    https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23964156.questions-remain-scottish-handling-post-office-horizon-scandal/

    It makes 3 important points:-

    1. Scotland does not have the same rebuttable presumption that computer evidence is reliable unless the defendant proves otherwise.
    2. Scottish prosecutors had doubts about Horizon evidence and did not therefore prosecute.
    3. The Post Office in Scotland could not run its own prosecutions so there was some independent review - and attempt to comply with the rules - of the type so dismally lacking in England & Wales.

    Bluntly the PO was not able to subvert the Scottish criminal justice system in the way that it did elsewhere. Though the evidence in recent days suggests that the PO did try to by trying to bully Scottish prosecutors.

    It makes Ministers' refusal to look again at the computer evidence presumption even more unconscionable than it is.



    Many thanks - I'd missed it. I'd been wondering what the situation was up here. Were there really no prosecutions in Scotland?

    Presumably the PF and Crown Office might have had their suspicions - but without looking into it in detail they couldn't be sure. And it would be unfair to expect them to spend the time to do so (which they couldn't, without a case, anyway, which meant a formal complaint from the PO) or to go public - unless, that was, there was an actual case in Scotland and expert witnesses could go to town on the prosecution evidence and the whole laundry-basket could be emptied out in court.

    I do wonder however how many Scottish subPMs had to pay the losses the system reportedly magicked out of thin air, and lost their livelihoods on the quiet, even if they did not go to court.

    I'm now beginning to wonder just why at least one supermarket I know closed its subPO.

  • Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Not an obsession, but I too love pocket knives and similar. I think it stems from a childhood spent camping.

    I have a beautiful Laguiole corkscrew that I simply love to handle too.

    My most evil knife is my sailors knife, designed for cutting ropes in an emergency, which I keep on a cord in my buoyancy aid.
    Delighted albeit surprised to see Ipswich tussling with your team for second tier top spot this Christmas, Foxy
    Yes the Boxing Day match away is going to be an interesting one. Fortunately its televised as I will be on the Isle of Wight with Mrs Foxy's family. Ipswich going great at present.

    Leicester not playing well but grinding out points, conceding an equaliser at Wednesday on Wednesday night and lucky to get an injury time winner yesterday at WBA.

    I think we are clear enough to get promotion but it's tight margins, winning or losing by a single goal. We rarely score freely or concede more than one.



  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
  • Foxy said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
    It will absolutely work, for the reasons the posts on here demonstrate this morning.

    His left-wing critics will fear he's sincere and floating voters will want to believe such objectivity is true.

    So, it will work.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    Foxy said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
    It will absolutely work, for the reasons the posts on here demonstrate this morning.

    His left-wing critics will fear he's sincere and floating voters will want to believe such objectivity is true.

    So, it will work.
    ...but Fatcha? She was hugely divisive and such eulogising makes non -Conservatives of my era want to vote Green or LD. The true flag carriers of the centre- left?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    He mentioned Attlee and Blair too
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    He mentioned Attlee and Blair too
    What about Goering?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    His target is Tory 2019 voters in marginal seats not Labour core voters. Even Brown invited Thatcher to tea
    Yes and inviting Mrs Thatcher to tea did Brown no good, and the voters Labour needs in Scotland, the Red Wall and possibly even the Blue Wall did not vote for Mrs Thatcher. We can see why SKS is doing it but it is likely to be counterproductive for fairly obvious reasons.
    Brown won a comfortable majority in Scotland in 2010 and got a hung parliament in the UK overall.

    Most of the marginal seats though that did switch from Labour to Conservative in 2010 and have voted Tory since did vote for Thatcher as did some of the redwall seats and all the bluewall seats
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
    “the Godmother of Brexit.”

    You say that like it’s a bad thing
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    edited December 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Completely snowed in now. Cannot open front door. Managed to open back door and collect wood for fire. It is quite beautiful outside. There is a magical stillness in a snow covered landscape.

    Fortunately the main road nearby seems to have been cleared. So at least we can walk to the town, even it will take an hour or so.

    Anyway, this article is well worth reading.

    https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23964156.questions-remain-scottish-handling-post-office-horizon-scandal/

    It makes 3 important points:-

    1. Scotland does not have the same rebuttable presumption that computer evidence is reliable unless the defendant proves otherwise.
    2. Scottish prosecutors had doubts about Horizon evidence and did not therefore prosecute.
    3. The Post Office in Scotland could not run its own prosecutions so there was some independent review - and attempt to comply with the rules - of the type so dismally lacking in England & Wales.

    Bluntly the PO was not able to subvert the Scottish criminal justice system in the way that it did elsewhere. Though the evidence in recent days suggests that the PO did try to by trying to bully Scottish prosecutors.

    It makes Ministers' refusal to look again at the computer evidence presumption even more unconscionable than it is.



    Many thanks - I'd missed it. I'd been wondering what the situation was up here. Were there really no prosecutions in Scotland?

    Presumably the PF and Crown Office might have had their suspicions - but without looking into it in detail they couldn't be sure. And it would be unfair to expect them to spend the time to do so (which they couldn't, without a case, anyway, which meant a formal complaint from the PO) or to go public - unless, that was, there was an actual case in Scotland and expert witnesses could go to town on the prosecution evidence and the whole laundry-basket could be emptied out in court.

    I do wonder however how many Scottish subPMs had to pay the losses the system reportedly magicked out of thin air, and lost their livelihoods on the quiet, even if they did not go to court.

    I'm now beginning to wonder just why at least one supermarket I know closed its subPO.

    I don't know the answer to your first question. The key point is that Scots law required corroboration and there was no such evidence.

    But you make an important point which is often overlooked: many SPMs were pursued for the money but not prosecuted. So the injustice goes wider than the prosecutions - all the debt recovery proceedings are also fundamentally flawed. And all the monies SPMs paid out of their own pockets to resolve discrepancies were obtained under false pretences.

    Basically nothing the PO legal department did in relation to the SPM - whether civil or criminal - from 2000 onwards - can be relied on.

    I wouldn't rely on anything they say or do now, frankly, given the ongoing disclosure failings. The entire legal and investigative function at the PO is discredited.

    One of the PO investigation managers who recently gave evidence is now an internal investigator at Sellafield, which is a tad worrying. She boasts about her time at the PO on her LinkedIn page which shows an alarming lack of awareness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
    “the Godmother of Brexit.”

    You say that like it’s a bad thing
    You keep telling me it's going well. Who am I to question a recently self- diagnosed psychopath?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,652
    Yes, Nikki Haley, even as piece of radical woke lefty progressive vermin I say go go go. Beat Trump, tame MAGA, then whup Joe and break that infernal Glass Ceiling!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    He mentioned Attlee and Blair too
    What about Goering?
    That's a second-term thing
  • Foxy said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
    It will absolutely work, for the reasons the posts on here demonstrate this morning.

    His left-wing critics will fear he's sincere and floating voters will want to believe such objectivity is true.

    So, it will work.
    ...but Fatcha? She was hugely divisive and such eulogising makes non -Conservatives of my era want to vote Green or LD. The true flag carriers of the centre- left?
    And such knee-jerk reactions explain exactly why SKS is doing it.

    You will whine like a mule but still vote Labour in the GE.

    You are one of his useful idiots.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
    “the Godmother of Brexit.”

    You say that like it’s a bad thing
    You keep telling me it's going well. Who am I to question a recently self- diagnosed psychopath?
    Particularly one carrying a knife...
  • Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
    “the Godmother of Brexit.”

    You say that like it’s a bad thing
    In tune with the current view of the people, then.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Completely snowed in now. Cannot open front door. Managed to open back door and collect wood for fire. It is quite beautiful outside. There is a magical stillness in a snow covered landscape.

    Fortunately the main road nearby seems to have been cleared. So at least we can walk to the town, even it will take an hour or so.

    Anyway, this article is well worth reading.

    https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23964156.questions-remain-scottish-handling-post-office-horizon-scandal/

    It makes 3 important points:-

    1. Scotland does not have the same rebuttable presumption that computer evidence is reliable unless the defendant proves otherwise.
    2. Scottish prosecutors had doubts about Horizon evidence and did not therefore prosecute.
    3. The Post Office in Scotland could not run its own prosecutions so there was some independent review - and attempt to comply with the rules - of the type so dismally lacking in England & Wales.

    Bluntly the PO was not able to subvert the Scottish criminal justice system in the way that it did elsewhere. Though the evidence in recent days suggests that the PO did try to by trying to bully Scottish prosecutors.

    It makes Ministers' refusal to look again at the computer evidence presumption even more unconscionable than it is.



    Many thanks - I'd missed it. I'd been wondering what the situation was up here. Were there really no prosecutions in Scotland?

    Presumably the PF and Crown Office might have had their suspicions - but without looking into it in detail they couldn't be sure. And it would be unfair to expect them to spend the time to do so (which they couldn't, without a case, anyway, which meant a formal complaint from the PO) or to go public - unless, that was, there was an actual case in Scotland and expert witnesses could go to town on the prosecution evidence and the whole laundry-basket could be emptied out in court.

    I do wonder however how many Scottish subPMs had to pay the losses the system reportedly magicked out of thin air, and lost their livelihoods on the quiet, even if they did not go to court.

    I'm now beginning to wonder just why at least one supermarket I know closed its subPO.

    I don't know the answer to your first question. The key point is that Scots law required corroboration and there was no such evidence.

    But you make an important point which is often overlooked: many SPMs were pursued for the money but not prosecuted. So the injustice goes wider than the prosecutions - all the debt recovery proceedings are also fundamentally flawed. And all the monies SPMs paid out of their own pockets to resolve discrepancies were obtained under false pretences.

    Basically nothing the PO legal department did in relation to the SPM - whether civil or criminal - from 2000 onwards - can be relied on.

    I wouldn't rely on anything they say or do now, frankly, given the ongoing disclosure failings. The entire legal and investigative function at the PO is discredited.

    One of the PO investigation managers who recently gave evidence is now an internal investigator at Sellafield, which is a tad worrying. She boasts about her time at the PO on her LinkedIn page which shows an alarming lack of awareness.
    But she followed The Process. Which grants absolution and indeed entry* to Kingdom Of Heaven.

    *the Premium Business Class Lounge, no less.
  • HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    His target is Tory 2019 voters in marginal seats not Labour core voters. Even Brown invited Thatcher to tea
    Yes and inviting Mrs Thatcher to tea did Brown no good, and the voters Labour needs in Scotland, the Red Wall and possibly even the Blue Wall did not vote for Mrs Thatcher. We can see why SKS is doing it but it is likely to be counterproductive for fairly obvious reasons.
    It will not be counterproductive. It's carefully psephologically calculated.

    You have to remember that before you ever see any public move like this it's been carefully polled, focus-grouped and tested for months.
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Not an obsession, but I too love pocket knives and similar. I think it stems from a childhood spent camping.

    I have a beautiful Laguiole corkscrew that I simply love to handle too.

    My most evil knife is my sailors knife, designed for cutting ropes in an emergency, which I keep on a cord in my buoyancy aid.
    Must be a bit alarming for your patients.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    Foxy said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
    It will absolutely work, for the reasons the posts on here demonstrate this morning.

    His left-wing critics will fear he's sincere and floating voters will want to believe such objectivity is true.

    So, it will work.
    ...but Fatcha? She was hugely divisive and such eulogising makes non -Conservatives of my era want to vote Green or LD. The true flag carriers of the centre- left?
    And such knee-jerk reactions explain exactly why SKS is doing it.

    You will whine like a mule but still vote Labour in the GE.

    You are one of his useful idiots.
    No one has ever before accused me of being "useful"!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Nikki Haley, even as piece of radical woke lefty progressive vermin I say go go go. Beat Trump, tame MAGA, then whup Joe and break that infernal Glass Ceiling!

    She certainly is the best chance to break the prospect of Trump vs Biden 2: Battle of the Zombies.
  • Foxy said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
    It will absolutely work, for the reasons the posts on here demonstrate this morning.

    His left-wing critics will fear he's sincere and floating voters will want to believe such objectivity is true.

    So, it will work.
    ...but Fatcha? She was hugely divisive and such eulogising makes non -Conservatives of my era want to vote Green or LD. The true flag carriers of the centre- left?
    And such knee-jerk reactions explain exactly why SKS is doing it.

    You will whine like a mule but still vote Labour in the GE.

    You are one of his useful idiots.
    No one has ever before accused me of being "useful"!
    You might have a point in his second term BTW, as I said the other day I expect his left flank to crumble quickly, but not until the Tories are safely out.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Not an obsession, but I too love pocket knives and similar. I think it stems from a childhood spent camping.

    I have a beautiful Laguiole corkscrew that I simply love to handle too.

    My most evil knife is my sailors knife, designed for cutting ropes in an emergency, which I keep on a cord in my buoyancy aid.
    Must be a bit alarming for your patients.
    Some of my colleagues make a good living out of sticking knives into people!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    ...
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
    Deregulation of the City and handing the economy over to financial speculators hasn't been an unequivocal long term success either.

    Without North Sea oil nor "selling off the family silver" by privatisations, Thatcherism style remodeling of the country is no longer possible, even if the challenges weren't so different.
    Primary and tertiary industrial policy too. All but gone.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,652
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    Is a psychopathic fear of being thought 'normal' one of the boxes?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Nikki Haley, even as piece of radical woke lefty progressive vermin I say go go go. Beat Trump, tame MAGA, then whup Joe and break that infernal Glass Ceiling!

    She certainly is the best chance to break the prospect of Trump vs Biden 2: Battle of the Zombies.
    Not really as Trump would go Independent and hand Biden re election
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,773
    Nigelb said:
    Nope. We never did much AAR in the Sea Harrier because we didn't have any tankers and the jet wouldn't turn to port with the probe on - typically considered not ideal for a combat aircraft.

    Did loads of prodding in the F-14 but the probe, like every other part of the aircraft, was built tough.

    I have seen it happen from inside a KC-130 though. The HH-60 driver said he'd mail the receptacle back to them once he had RTBed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893

    Foxy said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    It strikes me as me as also a bit false, annoying his own party members and failing to convince Tories.

    Starmer has spoken of his time in the Young Socialits youth wing of the Labour Party, and was editor of the hard left "Socialist Alternatives" paper in the late Eighties, so must have campaigned against Thatcherism at every opportunity.

    If its merely about achieving change than there are plenty of Labour leaders to cite, from Attlee to Blair.
    It will absolutely work, for the reasons the posts on here demonstrate this morning.

    His left-wing critics will fear he's sincere and floating voters will want to believe such objectivity is true.

    So, it will work.
    ...but Fatcha? She was hugely divisive and such eulogising makes non -Conservatives of my era want to vote Green or LD. The true flag carriers of the centre- left?
    The Greens maybe, the LDs actually were in government with the Tories
  • HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    If Keir actually admired Thatcher he wouldn't be in the bloody Labour Party. All he is doing is annoying his own members, and demonstrating to every right thinking person that he's no better than the rest of political class.

    His target is Tory 2019 voters in marginal seats not Labour core voters. Even Brown invited Thatcher to tea
    Yes and inviting Mrs Thatcher to tea did Brown no good, and the voters Labour needs in Scotland, the Red Wall and possibly even the Blue Wall did not vote for Mrs Thatcher. We can see why SKS is doing it but it is likely to be counterproductive for fairly obvious reasons.
    It will not be counterproductive. It's carefully psephologically calculated.

    You have to remember that before you ever see any public move like this it's been carefully polled, focus-grouped and tested for months.
    By Mandelson, the electoral genius who got Neil Kinnock stuffed in 1992.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,133
    edited December 2023
    For connoisseurs of lefty hypocrisy:

    https://www.cop28accommodationdubai.com/charter-private-jet-to-cop28-dubai/

    I particularly love the first line on that page:

    "If you’re looking to charter a private jet to COP28 in Dubai, we can help organize this and more." As if it's the most obvious and natural thing in the world.

    Also:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwilliams1/2021/11/05/118-private-jets-take-leaders-to-cop26-climate-summit-burning-over-1000-tons-of-co2/?sh=289865c653d9
  • Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    I think you're too hysterical to be a psychopath.
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Nikki Haley, even as piece of radical woke lefty progressive vermin I say go go go. Beat Trump, tame MAGA, then whup Joe and break that infernal Glass Ceiling!

    She certainly is the best chance to break the prospect of Trump vs Biden 2: Battle of the Zombies.
    Not really as Trump would go Independent and hand Biden re election
    He couldn't.

    I'll keep making this point: understand the bloody rules.

    There are legal impediments in place to prevent sore-loser candidacies - filing deadlines, restrictions on running under different flags in the same election, and so on, in enough states as to fatally hobble any serious candidate attempting it. Citing 1912 as a precedent (or even 1980) is pointless if it can't be done under current rules.

    And yes, those rules could be changed but only with the support of the various state officials - and would they really be willing to do that, against the interests of their own party in many cases, for a candidate who had just *lost* in the popular vote?

    More realistically, if Trump actually lost, he'd launch a legal blizzard of cases against Haley (ow whoever), the GOP hierarchy, state officials and anyone else he perceived as having crossed his path. He'd also spout off like a madman. Would it make a difference? Yes, but there'd also be context: *why* had he lost a primary campaign he's currently cruising to victory in?
  • All that Starmer article is telling me is that we are looking at the return of NuLab. Something I am not particularly convinced is a good thing.

    We need impetus and fresh ideas, not retreads of pandering back to Thatcherism.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,652

    Fishing said:

    For connoisseurs of lefty hypocrisy:

    https://www.cop28accommodationdubai.com/charter-private-jet-to-cop28-dubai/

    I particularly love the first line on that page:

    "If you’re looking to charter a private jet to COP28 in Dubai, we can help organize this and more."

    Also:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwilliams1/2021/11/05/118-private-jets-take-leaders-to-cop26-climate-summit-burning-over-1000-tons-of-co2/?sh=289865c653d9

    I'm not sure that's lefty hypocrisy, given that the three people cited in the second article as availing themselves of a private jet are Jeff Bezos, Prince (?) Charles and Boris Johnson. Righty hypocrisy?
    Ah but you forget. "Righties" can't be guilty of hypocrisy because they never pretend to care about anything. It's one of the perks of being one.
  • Jonathan said:

    If Haley defeats (or looks on course to defeat) Trump do we seriously think he will accept that with quiet dignity? He will throw his rattle out of the pram and cause complete havoc. I am not sure primary system can contain that.

    The dogs bark but the caravan moves on? Obviously he'd say he woz robbed and it would be a fun convention, but if he hasn't got the votes then he hasn't got the votes.

    The real question would be whether he tried to run as an independent, but even if he wants to that seems hard because of the sore loser laws and so forth. The rational thing to do would be to bargain with Haley for a pardon, but at that point I guess we'd find out how rational he is.
    Even if he doesn’t run as an independent, he will constantly distract from Haley (or whoever), criticise her, drive down Republican turnout, launch quixotic lawsuits, demand loyalty pledges from House and Senate candidates, etc. etc. All great news for the Dems.

    The idea that he’ll bargain for a pardon, as I’ve said before, I’m not buying it. Even if he made some sort of agreement, it would take less than a week for him to break whatever terms were agreed. He cannot stop himself bloviating.
    Yes, but on the other hand if Haley did win the primaries, if she is facing Biden she will immediately contrast favourably with him. He loses his “saviour of democracy” piece and all of the queries around his mental acuity etc will come to the fore against someone who is clearly as sharp as a pin. I’m not saying he can’t win against Haley, but even with Trump as a thorn in her side she has to be favoured.

    It is still a low probability she gets the nomination, though.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    ...

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    Many people brought meaningful change to the UK. Attlee. Blair. Goering. Change is not the same as good.
    Indeed, notwithstanding 13 years of New Labour in-between, many of Thatchers Friedman economics chickens are coming home to roost as we speak. Failed privatised utilities and the current housing crisis can be traced back to the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism coupled with her client press boosted reputation unwittingly made her the Godmother of Brexit.
    Deregulation of the City and handing the economy over to financial speculators hasn't been an unequivocal long term success either.

    Without North Sea oil nor "selling off the family silver" by privatisations, Thatcherism style remodeling of the country is no longer possible, even if the challenges weren't so different.
    Primary and tertiary industrial policy too. All but gone.
    My own view is that had we kept wide swathes of the economy nationalised, retained exchange controls, kept subsidising coal, ship, and car production, retained the closed shop, secondary picketing, and prices and incomes policies, our economic performance over the past 44 years would have been similar to that of Argentina, over the same period.
  • Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Preparing for the big change. No surgery involved I hope.




    Dame Keiri di Thatchawa.
    No likes?? I thought it was a good pun. Oh, well...
  • Fishing said:

    For connoisseurs of lefty hypocrisy:

    https://www.cop28accommodationdubai.com/charter-private-jet-to-cop28-dubai/

    I particularly love the first line on that page:

    "If you’re looking to charter a private jet to COP28 in Dubai, we can help organize this and more."

    Also:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwilliams1/2021/11/05/118-private-jets-take-leaders-to-cop26-climate-summit-burning-over-1000-tons-of-co2/?sh=289865c653d9

    I'm not sure that's lefty hypocrisy, given that the three people cited in the second article as availing themselves of a private jet are Jeff Bezos, Prince (?) Charles and Boris Johnson. Righty hypocrisy?
    The whole comment misunderstands the Copp process, it's not a "lefty" project, it's a meeting organised by the entire global community to address the threat posed by climate change. The meeting in Dubai is attended by people of all political persuasion and none, including wealthy business people who may want to fly in by private jet. Of course one can point out the inherent absurdity of flying by private jet to a climate conference, but it's not a "lefty" hypocrisy. I guess there are a few on the right who misunderstand the scientific consensus on this issue - or are sufficiently nihilistic to pretend they do - but that doesn't make addressing climate change a "lefty" project, it is a mainstream goal that most of humanity has signed up to in the name of self-preservation.
  • Good morning

    Starmer's praise for Thatcher is weird and seems to be part of him wanting to be all things to all people
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,394

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    I think you're too hysterical to be a psychopath.
    It's all...part...of the plan


  • Fishing said:

    For connoisseurs of lefty hypocrisy:

    https://www.cop28accommodationdubai.com/charter-private-jet-to-cop28-dubai/

    I particularly love the first line on that page:

    "If you’re looking to charter a private jet to COP28 in Dubai, we can help organize this and more."

    Also:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwilliams1/2021/11/05/118-private-jets-take-leaders-to-cop26-climate-summit-burning-over-1000-tons-of-co2/?sh=289865c653d9

    I'm not sure that's lefty hypocrisy, given that the three people cited in the second article as availing themselves of a private jet are Jeff Bezos, Prince (?) Charles and Boris Johnson. Righty hypocrisy?
    Rishi took a huge personal airliner there and back to spend just 12 hours in Dubai!
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    Good morning

    Starmer's praise for Thatcher is weird and seems to be part of him wanting to be all things to all people

    it's only weird to people who like to categorise people in boxes and get confounded when it turns out life isn't quite as simple as that
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Starmer chasing the votes of people who will never vote for Labour . At the same time pissing off many Labour voters . The biggest danger to Labour at the moment is Starmer !

    And talking about Brexit possibilities . More stupid comments which will annoy the vast majority of Labour voters who think Brexit is a crusty white turd !
  • viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    The quest to find the clitoris of the English electorate is unending.


    He suddenly looks like he’s wearing a weird multicoloured toupee
    Had the weird experience of thinking about you yesterday at a birthday lunch. I didn’t know your favourite knife-makers made knives for dining purposes but they were every bit as sharp as their fold up fun knives.


    Lovely knives

    Tho technically my favourite knives are these

    Wolf and Dingo. Hand forged on Bodmin Moor. I have three. Superb

    https://www.atkinson-art.co.uk/product-category/wolf-dingo-chef-knives-for-valhalla/

    Only problem is they are 25 times the price of Opinel
    I never had you down as a rustle something up oh where's the asafoetida kind of guy.
    I have a mild knife obsession

    Coincidentally I am reading a book about forensic psychiatry and “an obsession with knives” is one of the top 20 primary indicators of psychopathy

    I also tick several other boxes. Odd sensation
    I think you're too hysterical to be a psychopath.
    It's all...part...of the plan


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylwMWpbv5Fk&t=1s
  • Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    From the Times this morning. This is it. The eschaton is here and all will be judged according to their gnosis and worldly actions.




    Schnapps with Shapps is zingy.

    Bevvy with Cleverly
    Fizz with Liz
    Perry with Penny
    Glűhwein with Gove
    Arak with Jack
    Punch up with Cameron

    The last is just a bit of advice,
    The Russians have missed a trick when it comes to

    Hootin’ with Putin

    Going round to Vlad’s dacha for a massive coke bender
    Pootin!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Haley actually sounds borderline sensible, relatively speaking.
This discussion has been closed.