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What a difference a year makes – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,160
edited December 2023 in General
What a difference a year makes – politicalbetting.com

After the 2022 Autumn Statement, Rishi Sunak led Keir Starmer by 9% as the person voters thought best embodied the characteristic ‘Can build a strong economy (42% vs 33).One year on, Starmer now leads on the same characteristic by 5% (38% vs 33%).https://t.co/b0t3CQWdky pic.twitter.com/ttXnlr7JUn

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Comments

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.
  • Linkedin has this morning recommended that I follow, as people who can inspire me at work, Microsoft boss Satya Nadella and the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, who already has 1,925,657 followers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370

    Linkedin has this morning recommended that I follow, as people who can inspire me at work, Microsoft boss Satya Nadella and the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, who already has 1,925,657 followers.

    I didn’t know there were that many lemmings in the world.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260
    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    I don’t think even the foghorn Tory Media is going to be able to scare people this time. Ordinary people feel 13 years of Tory failure in every aspect of their lives.

    That said, I agree there is no great love for Starmer’s Labour, more a desire for change.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,323
    edited December 2023
    darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    Yes, their best hope (their only hope?) is to convince enough people that they need to cling on to Nurse for fear of Something Worse.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,294
    Community notes are a pretty good feature - very helpful
  • @Eabhal

    FPT....


    My impression of him - and I think I met a number like him in my professional career - is that he had very limited abilities but was good at bullshitting his way through life and made himself useful to others by doing what they wanted without questioning the worth or morality of his actions.

    It speaks volumes of the Post Office that it would actually employ such an individual in a position of authority.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370

    @Eabhal

    FPT....


    My impression of him - and I think I met a number like him in my professional career - is that he had very limited abilities but was good at bullshitting his way through life and made himself useful to others by doing what they wanted without questioning the worth or morality of his actions.

    It speaks volumes of the Post Office that it would actually employ such an individual in a position of authority.

    He's still more competent than Amanda Spielman.

    Admittedly, that's a low bar.
  • Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370
    edited December 2023

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    The WCML gantries north of Preston look bad as well. They were put up around fifty years ago and I don't think they're being well looked after.
  • I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Yes, there is. It's some kind of throat infection from what I've seen. Fortunately I only had a mild dose of it so I could keep working.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    edited December 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    The WCML gantries north of Preston look bad as well. They were put up around fifty years ago and I don't think they're being well looked after.
    Was on a train to Birmingham from Rugby last Saturday. Train stopped -luckily at a station - because of a fatality on the line. Gave up and got an Uber back to Rugby (£53). Have claimed and getting cost of Uber, Car park at Rugby (£2.40) and less surprising cost of the tickets (£17) back.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    I’m the same. Cannot stop coughing. But in my throat not my lungs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    A friend has just returned from Cambodia to Bangkok with “an unusually unpleasant virus”

    Not sure what it is, he says. Now, my guess is it is just winter bugs re-emerging but we can all be forgiven the odd PTSD flashback
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260
    In fact, wait actually that’s TWO friends in Bangkok with “weird bugs”
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    I’m the same. Cannot stop coughing. But in my throat not my lungs.
    That was how our covid kicked off
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    FPT
    I see Humza is getting good publicity at COP meeting




  • malcolmg said:

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
    Sorry to hear that.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    Another shambles caused by the cheapo knitting.

    BTW, good to see your use of "01:bungle". Wor Lass always fails to comprehend when I use this terminology.
  • darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    Grasping at straws, Starmer dangerous?
    No the Tories need to go for their own good, but mainly for ours.
  • malcolmg said:

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
    The endless cold / hacking cough that lasts for a month is how Covid hits me. Yes I am functional - didn't even take time off last time (September). But its just debilitating as it goes on and on and on.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    It might be wise to wait to see *why* the knitting came down, before going into 'Fatcha!" mode. I don't think the wind was string yesterday, the temperatures not abnormal, and many dewirements are caused by an issue with the train, not the infrastructure itself.

    Incidentally, and much more worryingly, there have been a spate of broken rails over the last few weeks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370
    edited December 2023

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
  • Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    It might be wise to wait to see *why* the knitting came down, before going into 'Fatcha!" mode. I don't think the wind was string yesterday, the temperatures not abnormal, and many dewirements are caused by an issue with the train, not the infrastructure itself.

    Incidentally, and much more worryingly, there have been a spate of broken rails over the last few weeks.
    The wiring installed in that late 80s scheme (under Facha! and her spending rules) is notoriously not fit for purpose. Its hardly a secret. The problem I assume is that fixing it would cost money we do not want to spend.

    Have also heard about the broken rail incidents which suggests Railtrakean levels of maintenance by Network Rail. Failtrack weren't interested in infrastructure, only shopping. NR is run / ruined by the DfT muppets, so I have to assume that budget constraints will be part of the fun there.

    Two basic fails last night from what I can read - and yes I know its what I am reading on X but there are multiple sources and photos.

    One: the decision to keep buggering on regardless of how long it would take. Strike day today so I understand the rationale. Its just that the delays became utterly ludicrous as NR had to trundle services through on their donkey engine. Where they could do the Lincoln direct they had done so, but a single engine on an 801 is not going to manage that.

    Two: lack of coordination with stations. Of course all the lounges and waiting rooms were closed. Why wouldn't they be? I respect the out of hours cancellation of the train at Retford - you can't drive out of hours, its unsafe. But dumping everyone out into sub-zero temps is lunacy, especially where they are crush loaded onto the only operational platform which then has services running past it.
    That the same passengers were then abandoned on arrival into Kings Cross is just ludicrous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    Yes, their best hope (their only hope?) is to convince enough people that they need to cling on to Nurse for fear of Something Worse.
    It's the usual 2 arguments 1) time for change 2) don't risk change.

    There are variants, sometimes it's about more time to complete a change etc, but that's really it.

    Truss wanted to pitch the party as time for a change despite 10 years in government, whilst Rishi has tried both without really confirming either until recently.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570

    malcolmg said:

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
    The endless cold / hacking cough that lasts for a month is how Covid hits me. Yes I am functional - didn't even take time off last time (September). But its just debilitating as it goes on and on and on.
    I had Covid at Easter. It knocked me out for a couple of weeks, after which I started running again. I got up to 10K no problem; then one day I did a ten miler, and within a few hours felt horrendously ill and had difficulty breathing. It took me another month to get back up to 10K. Sadly, that also ended my marathon-a-week plan; I was too far behind to catch up. I've only done a couple since.

    Still, I did sixteen or so, which I'm quite pleased with. :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307
    edited December 2023
    Guess bulb planting is going to have to wait.



    Snowing quite heavily now.




  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370
    Cyclefree said:

    Guess bulb planting is going to have to wait.



    Snowing quite heavily now.




    Heavy frost and thick fog here.

    Not ideal for driving to Cardiff.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    It might be wise to wait to see *why* the knitting came down, before going into 'Fatcha!" mode. I don't think the wind was string yesterday, the temperatures not abnormal, and many dewirements are caused by an issue with the train, not the infrastructure itself.

    Incidentally, and much more worryingly, there have been a spate of broken rails over the last few weeks.
    The wiring installed in that late 80s scheme (under Facha! and her spending rules) is notoriously not fit for purpose. Its hardly a secret. The problem I assume is that fixing it would cost money we do not want to spend.

    Have also heard about the broken rail incidents which suggests Railtrakean levels of maintenance by Network Rail. Failtrack weren't interested in infrastructure, only shopping. NR is run / ruined by the DfT muppets, so I have to assume that budget constraints will be part of the fun there.

    Two basic fails last night from what I can read - and yes I know its what I am reading on X but there are multiple sources and photos.

    One: the decision to keep buggering on regardless of how long it would take. Strike day today so I understand the rationale. Its just that the delays became utterly ludicrous as NR had to trundle services through on their donkey engine. Where they could do the Lincoln direct they had done so, but a single engine on an 801 is not going to manage that.

    Two: lack of coordination with stations. Of course all the lounges and waiting rooms were closed. Why wouldn't they be? I respect the out of hours cancellation of the train at Retford - you can't drive out of hours, its unsafe. But dumping everyone out into sub-zero temps is lunacy, especially where they are crush loaded onto the only operational platform which then has services running past it.
    That the same passengers were then abandoned on arrival into Kings Cross is just ludicrous.
    Jessops gets very touchy about criticism of Conservative Governments past. Can't we just blame the New Labour administration or God?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    edited December 2023

    darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    Yes, their best hope (their only hope?) is to convince enough people that they need to cling on to Nurse for fear of Something Worse.
    A sort of political Stockholm Syndrome?

    So despite evidence of being surrounded by utter dereliction and destitution, we take on board much loved Rishi Sunak's PMQs proclamations that everything is going gangbusters on his watch, and what little bad stuff remains from the fiasco that went before (from Attlee through to Truss) it is the fault of somebody else, notably Starmer.

    It might work. But what does another 5 years of listless, directionless, pointless and corrupt populist Government look like? Much like the last fourteen months I suspect.
    Obviously anyone in a political party believes things will be better if they win, that's kind of the point, but for some time now, before Sunak even but especially under him, there's not much sense of 'we need to be in power to do x'.

    There's immediate crises to address, but I don't get a sense that there's agreement on a narrative. To reduce the deficit, to transform the country etc. Some might get mentioned but haphazardly. Its just 'please, we want more time in power'.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    It might be wise to wait to see *why* the knitting came down, before going into 'Fatcha!" mode. I don't think the wind was string yesterday, the temperatures not abnormal, and many dewirements are caused by an issue with the train, not the infrastructure itself.

    Incidentally, and much more worryingly, there have been a spate of broken rails over the last few weeks.
    The wiring installed in that late 80s scheme (under Facha! and her spending rules) is notoriously not fit for purpose. Its hardly a secret. The problem I assume is that fixing it would cost money we do not want to spend.

    Have also heard about the broken rail incidents which suggests Railtrakean levels of maintenance by Network Rail. Failtrack weren't interested in infrastructure, only shopping. NR is run / ruined by the DfT muppets, so I have to assume that budget constraints will be part of the fun there.

    Two basic fails last night from what I can read - and yes I know its what I am reading on X but there are multiple sources and photos.

    One: the decision to keep buggering on regardless of how long it would take. Strike day today so I understand the rationale. Its just that the delays became utterly ludicrous as NR had to trundle services through on their donkey engine. Where they could do the Lincoln direct they had done so, but a single engine on an 801 is not going to manage that.

    Two: lack of coordination with stations. Of course all the lounges and waiting rooms were closed. Why wouldn't they be? I respect the out of hours cancellation of the train at Retford - you can't drive out of hours, its unsafe. But dumping everyone out into sub-zero temps is lunacy, especially where they are crush loaded onto the only operational platform which then has services running past it.
    That the same passengers were then abandoned on arrival into Kings Cross is just ludicrous.
    "... is notoriously not fit for purpose. "

    I've seen that argued, and I've also seen the opposite argued: that it's okay. Both by experts. But it's still orders of magnitude better than the *9* miles of line electrified in 13 years under Blair and Brown... (Kidsgrove to Crewe).

    Compare with the GWML, which seems to be overdesigned to withstand a thermonuclear weapons, and which still has dewirements and was ugly as f***.
  • darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    There is nothing more dangerous to this country than the prospect of another Conservative government. If you can't see the damage they've caused, then you deserve it. The rest of us don't.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245
    Space comedy

    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/12/a-bitter-pill-amazon-calls-on-rival-spacex-to-launch-internet-satellites/

    If nothing else, that makes SpaceX bulletproof in any antitrust stuff - they have launched or are going to launch satellites for pretty much all their rivals in the internet-from-space game.

    This is a trial order, partly to placate shareholders and also to try and get good will from the FCC when Amazon miss their deployment deadline.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260
    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,897
    darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    The problem with that is swing voters don't see Starmer as dangerous in the way they did Corbyn or even Ed Miliband and Kinnock.

    Starmer may not have Blair's charisma and Reeves is not as heavyweight as Brown but for voters in the mood for change from an unpopular Tory government they seem safe enough for now
  • Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    Try Anna Cramling.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570
    edited December 2023

    Morning all. Sorry to go off-topic already, but there has been a horrific incident overnight on the East Coast Mainline. Cheapo Thatcher electrification brought down again again again south of Retford and it produced delays I have never seen before.

    Single line working was put in place at Retford with 10mph trundling through the affected section happening very slowly, trying to clear several in each direction at at time.

    My boss was on a train which finally arrived into York at 03:49 - a mere 392 minutes late. And that wasn’t even his booked train (which should have been earlier away from London and was cancelled).

    That train was full and standing! Another southbound was terminated into Retford gone 1am as the driver was out of hours. Another full and standing train turfed out onto Platform 2 at 01:bungle into -2. Barely enough room to stand on the platform - which was the only open track in both directions.

    So their train had to be cleared so anything else could run. Meanwhile there is an awful lot of people barely able to find space to stand in sub-zero temperatures for over half an hour until the train behind them could pick them up.

    I’m sure the LNER and NR staff were doing everything they could and were being creative about how to work the problem. But instead of cancelling the lot and sticking people in nice warm hotels they tried to push through because today is a strike day…

    The wiring on the east coast route appears to increasingly be made of cheese. Notoriously done on the cheap and unreliable ever since, these dewiring incidents happen with increasing frequency. What can be done?

    It might be wise to wait to see *why* the knitting came down, before going into 'Fatcha!" mode. I don't think the wind was string yesterday, the temperatures not abnormal, and many dewirements are caused by an issue with the train, not the infrastructure itself.

    Incidentally, and much more worryingly, there have been a spate of broken rails over the last few weeks.
    The wiring installed in that late 80s scheme (under Facha! and her spending rules) is notoriously not fit for purpose. Its hardly a secret. The problem I assume is that fixing it would cost money we do not want to spend.

    Have also heard about the broken rail incidents which suggests Railtrakean levels of maintenance by Network Rail. Failtrack weren't interested in infrastructure, only shopping. NR is run / ruined by the DfT muppets, so I have to assume that budget constraints will be part of the fun there.

    Two basic fails last night from what I can read - and yes I know its what I am reading on X but there are multiple sources and photos.

    One: the decision to keep buggering on regardless of how long it would take. Strike day today so I understand the rationale. Its just that the delays became utterly ludicrous as NR had to trundle services through on their donkey engine. Where they could do the Lincoln direct they had done so, but a single engine on an 801 is not going to manage that.

    Two: lack of coordination with stations. Of course all the lounges and waiting rooms were closed. Why wouldn't they be? I respect the out of hours cancellation of the train at Retford - you can't drive out of hours, its unsafe. But dumping everyone out into sub-zero temps is lunacy, especially where they are crush loaded onto the only operational platform which then has services running past it.
    That the same passengers were then abandoned on arrival into Kings Cross is just ludicrous.
    Jessops gets very touchy about criticism of Conservative Governments past. Can't we just blame the New Labour administration or God?
    ???

    I know a fair bit about this subject. Under Thatcher, the ECML was electrified - at the time, I believe it was the biggest construction project in Europe. BedPan (Bedford to St Pancras) was also electrified under her government. Bishop's Stortford to Cambridge occurred under her, and it was extended to King's Lynn under Major. London to Shoeburyness was electrified under Thatcher. Cross-city line in Birmingham under Major. Various local routes around Edinburgh and Leeds were also electrified under Thatcher.

    That's hundreds of miles electrified, including major routes. Between 1997 and 2010, under Blair and Brown, precisely nine miles were electrified.

    I'll praise Thatcher and Major's governments for electrifying those routes and lines, as I think it was the right thing to do. I'll criticise Sunak's government over HS2, because cancelling was the *wrong* thing.

    And I'll excoriate Blair for shouting about the WCML Upgrade (which was a failure on its own terms) and ignoring the rest of the network.

    But facts, eh?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260

    Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    Try Anna Cramling.
    lol. I think Botez just edges it in her, uhm, use of the Sicilian Defence but ooooof
  • Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    She'd beat you at chess, then beat you to death.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260

    Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    She'd beat you at chess, then beat you to death.
    Undoubtedly. But what a way to go
  • HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    If you prefer incompentence over malice then your best option is probably to vote conservative. I think that the Conservatives can still probably succeed, despite all these disasters, if find a way of presenting labour as dangerous.

    The problem with that is swing voters don't see Starmer as dangerous in the way they did Corbyn or even Ed Miliband and Kinnock.

    Starmer may not have Blair's charisma and Reeves is not as heavyweight as Brown but for voters in the mood for change from an unpopular Tory government they seem safe enough for now
    I'm sure that will change after six months in government, Huyfd.

    You and your fellow Conservatives will then have about four years to sort yourselves into a decent alternative.

    Good luck.
  • malcolmg said:

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
    The endless cold / hacking cough that lasts for a month is how Covid hits me. Yes I am functional - didn't even take time off last time (September). But its just debilitating as it goes on and on and on.
    I had Covid at Easter. It knocked me out for a couple of weeks, after which I started running again. I got up to 10K no problem; then one day I did a ten miler, and within a few hours felt horrendously ill and had difficulty breathing. It took me another month to get back up to 10K. Sadly, that also ended my marathon-a-week plan; I was too far behind to catch up. I've only done a couple since.

    Still, I did sixteen or so, which I'm quite pleased with. :)
    Good morning

    It was covid that precipitated my DVT and present health problems

    Having previously had covid twice, and our 7th vaccine 2 weeks before, i felt a bit off and went to rest in bed following a negative covid test

    The following morning I woke with what my medics called a massive DVT, was admitted to hospital, where other issues came to the fore resulting in 3 different consultants with ongoing testing and treatment appointments

    The point I would make is I did not test positive for covid until 4 days later when my wife did, and my nurse asked me to check again when a feint line showed indicating I had had covid and apparently DVT's can be associated with covid

    Ironically I am pleased that all this has come out and my medical team are dealing with it, and in time I hope to make a good recovery

    I remain politically disinterested, though Sunak is a disappointment and Starmer is heading into no 10 with a good majority but facing an extraordinary number of near insoluble problems
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    Warning! Thread hijack alert.

    Behave! She looks barely legal, certainly for old men of our age. She's young enough to be your granddaughter.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    Let's face it, Sunak's petulant dismissal of the Greeks just reinforces his image as a weakling whose ineffective temper tantrums are simply weedy.

    Meanwhile, had he forgotten that the King is half Greek?

    I really don't see any Tory recovery before the next GE, we are simply sick of the sight of them. As more chickens come home to roost, I think the odds on recovery are possibly about the same as them facing an ELE... extinction level event.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260

    Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    Behave! She looks barely legal, certainly for old men of our age. She's young enough to be your granddaughter.
    Oh do shut up. I’m not about to molest her, and if we can’t be tragic old pervs on PB what’s left? Discussions about the West Coast Main Line?

    I do wonder what kind of guy will have the cullions to chat her up. Phenomenally beautiful, phenomenally intelligent, and if you don’t amuse her she could take you out with an uppercut

    Daunting
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    malcolmg said:

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
    The endless cold / hacking cough that lasts for a month is how Covid hits me. Yes I am functional - didn't even take time off last time (September). But its just debilitating as it goes on and on and on.
    Yes just has you feeling like crap
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,370
    Cicero said:

    Let's face it, Sunak's petulant dismissal of the Greeks just reinforces his image as a weakling whose ineffective temper tantrums are simply weedy.

    Meanwhile, had he forgotten that the King is half Greek?

    I really don't see any Tory recovery before the next GE, we are simply sick of the sight of them. As more chickens come home to roost, I think the odds on recovery are possibly about the same as them facing an ELE... extinction level event.

    Philip thought of himself as Danish born, not Greek, even though he was born in Greece.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245
    Cicero said:

    Let's face it, Sunak's petulant dismissal of the Greeks just reinforces his image as a weakling whose ineffective temper tantrums are simply weedy.

    Meanwhile, had he forgotten that the King is half Greek?

    I really don't see any Tory recovery before the next GE, we are simply sick of the sight of them. As more chickens come home to roost, I think the odds on recovery are possibly about the same as them facing an ELE... extinction level event.

    Half Danish royal family imported into Greece.

    It used to be a fairly basic rule in the King’ing business to get immigrants to do the job. In fact, when they get a bit nativised, it’s often a good idea to do a replacement with cheaper immigrant labour.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    My mystical brother in Peru has been telling me he keeps dreaming of “Andrea Botez”. I’ve never heard of her so I googled her and now I just want to cry

    Behave! She looks barely legal, certainly for old men of our age. She's young enough to be your granddaughter.
    Oh do shut up. I’m not about to molest her, and if we can’t be tragic old pervs on PB what’s left? Discussions about the West Coast Main Line?

    I do wonder what kind of guy will have the cullions to chat her up. Phenomenally beautiful, phenomenally intelligent, and if you don’t amuse her she could take you out with an uppercut

    Daunting
    If only you knew someone who could write an article about w******.

    I would have thought you have easy access to 21 year old chess players in you current location. " One night in Bangkok..."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260
    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
    As this is a statutory inquiry, it has the powers to compel witnesses to give evidence. They may not want to but, if the inquiry summons the top brass, they will have to appear, risk of self incrimination notwithstanding.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    malcolmg said:

    I've had a shitstain of a grotty cold for the last 8 days (no, it's not Covid).

    Something else going round?

    This gremlin just won't budge.

    Both wife and I had covid and never ending grotty cold after it , 3 weeks for me and wife still not over at 4 weeks despite antibiotics etc. Horrible.
    The endless cold / hacking cough that lasts for a month is how Covid hits me. Yes I am functional - didn't even take time off last time (September). But its just debilitating as it goes on and on and on.
    I had Covid at Easter. It knocked me out for a couple of weeks, after which I started running again. I got up to 10K no problem; then one day I did a ten miler, and within a few hours felt horrendously ill and had difficulty breathing. It took me another month to get back up to 10K. Sadly, that also ended my marathon-a-week plan; I was too far behind to catch up. I've only done a couple since.

    Still, I did sixteen or so, which I'm quite pleased with. :)
    Good morning

    It was covid that precipitated my DVT and present health problems

    Having previously had covid twice, and our 7th vaccine 2 weeks before, i felt a bit off and went to rest in bed following a negative covid test

    The following morning I woke with what my medics called a massive DVT, was admitted to hospital, where other issues came to the fore resulting in 3 different consultants with ongoing testing and treatment appointments

    The point I would make is I did not test positive for covid until 4 days later when my wife did, and my nurse asked me to check again when a feint line showed indicating I had had covid and apparently DVT's can be associated with covid

    Ironically I am pleased that all this has come out and my medical team are dealing with it, and in time I hope to make a good recovery

    I remain politically disinterested, though Sunak is a disappointment and Starmer is heading into no 10 with a good majority but facing an extraordinary number of near insoluble problems
    Hope you get well soon G sounds horrible.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    I tested positive, as did most of my colleagues. Alas, in our case, the beast is back.

    PS curiously my wife who got ill just after me, with the similar symptoms, never tested positive with a LFT.

    Two bugs or are the tests missing some people?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    The basic Tory problem is that people have decided it's Time for a Change, and are no longer paying attention to the details. And "Does 2p off NI but frozen PA mean you're better or worse off?" comes under the heading of detail. Possibly Truss had the right idea in principle - they have to do dramatic stuff to make anyone even listen.

    Similarly, I was chatting to a politically-informed friend living alone and we were both surprised that we'd had £500 winter allowances, wasn't it £200? Turns out the Tories topped it up by £300 "cost of living allowance" and neither of us even noticed. Are we unusual? I suppose it'll disappear next year whoever is in power, unless the parties get into an annoying auction for "who can bribe voting pensioners most".
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Guess bulb planting is going to have to wait.



    Snowing quite heavily now.




    Heavy frost and thick fog here.

    Not ideal for driving to Cardiff.
    We had lot of snow last night , been some years since I have seen it like this so near the coast
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
    Oh, I am sure Vennells will appear, and quite possibly the rest of her Board. It may be a long way down the line yet though. The PO is clearly playing it as long and slow as possible, deliberately delaying and obstructing the Inquiry wherever it can. Since it is owned by the Government, we can infer that it is doing so with Government consent, if not encouragement.

    We were due to hear recently from the extremely interesting witness Gareth Jenkins, who was the Expert Witness Fujitsu presented to reassure everyone that the Horizon system was 'robust'. Shortly before he was due up, the PO dumped thousands of emails on the Inquiry which it had just somehow discovered. Since some of these related to Mr J, his appearance had to be postponed to next year.

    I doubt the Inquiry will conclude before this time next year, by which time we will probably have a new Government. It will have its hands full, so I am not sure how much time and attention the results of the Inquiry will receive. Maybe that's what they would want. The origins of the scandal go back to Blair/Harman.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Cicero said:

    Let's face it, Sunak's petulant dismissal of the Greeks just reinforces his image as a weakling whose ineffective temper tantrums are simply weedy.

    Meanwhile, had he forgotten that the King is half Greek?

    I really don't see any Tory recovery before the next GE, we are simply sick of the sight of them. As more chickens come home to roost, I think the odds on recovery are possibly about the same as them facing an ELE... extinction level event.

    Luckily a Greek has restored some balance to the marbles kerfuffle, published by the guardian no less, where they point out that the Greek PM is certainly no innocent in this situation. As ever a bit of balance would be helpful but why bother when it’s a stick to beat “the other side”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/the-parthenon-marbles-row-is-about-nationalist-politics-the-sculptures-are-just-a-facade

    When the Greek PM was told that discussion of the Marbles was off the agenda why did he not cancel his meeting at that point? If you are invited to someone’s house and they ask you not to mention something problematic during the visit you can be polite and accept however much you disagree or you can make it a point of principle and refuse the invitation. You certainly don’t accept the terms then renege and cause greater damage.
  • Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    If it were a new wave of Covid we'd have heard about it by now and Sage wouldn't be disbanding.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    I tested positive, as did most of my colleagues. Alas, in our case, the beast is back.
    Yes we were both positive for a good spell as well and after effects just drag on and on
  • The BBC lists 'eight uncomfortable questions' for Boris to answer about covid.

    These do not include why flights from China continued after it had gone into maximum lockdown or why holidays were allowed in covid rife Spain in summer 2020 or why the delta variant was casually allowed to enter from India in the spring of 2021.

    Any mention of border control really is forbidden.
  • Prediction: inside 24 months Labour will be down at 30-32% in the polls again, and the Greens riding very high. Maybe even into the high teens. The Tories will be there or thereabouts with Reform in the low teens.

    There is no money and both main parties have very exposed flanks.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    If it were a new wave of Covid we'd have heard about it by now and Sage wouldn't be disbanding.
    Was definitely Covid at work. When I bought tests on Amazon, I noticed the stat that they had sold 50k+ tests in the past month. Something is out there.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    malcolmg said:

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    I tested positive, as did most of my colleagues. Alas, in our case, the beast is back.
    Yes we were both positive for a good spell as well and after effects just drag on and on
    Just to crown it I am on antibiotics for toothache now and getting root canal next week, just hoping I am right for christmas.
  • I see the BBC have updated their report about a bank closure in Richmond from it being the last one in Sunak's constituency to being only part of the constituency.

    There's at least four banks in Northallerton - the largest town in Richmond constituency.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67583574
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    If it were a new wave of Covid we'd have heard about it by now and Sage wouldn't be disbanding.
    COVID is with us for the long term. Like the flu. Yearly vaccinations will be a thing.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307
    Anyway, 2 blistering articles about the utterly shameful silence and denial by too many human rights and feminist groups and other self-important commentators with no moral compass (yes, Owen, that means you) of the sexual violence inflicted on women and girls on 7 October.

    Grim - but essential - reading.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whys-the-metoo-crowd-silent-on-hamas-rape-g8m5mkpf9

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

    An absolute winter wonderland here now.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    If only you'd all been WFH...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    If it were a new wave of Covid we'd have heard about it by now and Sage wouldn't be disbanding.
    You are kidding
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260

    Prediction: inside 24 months Labour will be down at 30-32% in the polls again, and the Greens riding very high. Maybe even into the high teens. The Tories will be there or thereabouts with Reform in the low teens.

    There is no money and both main parties have very exposed flanks.

    I cited some links last night about the evermore imminent arrival of world changing AGI

    It is going to sweep away all our economic and political norms within a decade, max, and might be impacting - hugely - within the next 3-5 years

    Don’t bother putting money in a pension. It will either be worthless or everyone will be rich anyway
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245
    edited December 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
    Oh, I am sure Vennells will appear, and quite possibly the rest of her Board. It may be a long way down the line yet though. The PO is clearly playing it as long and slow as possible, deliberately delaying and obstructing the Inquiry wherever it can. Since it is owned by the Government, we can infer that it is doing so with Government consent, if not encouragement.

    We were due to hear recently from the extremely interesting witness Gareth Jenkins, who was the Expert Witness Fujitsu presented to reassure everyone that the Horizon system was 'robust'. Shortly before he was due up, the PO dumped thousands of emails on the Inquiry which it had just somehow discovered. Since some of these related to Mr J, his appearance had to be postponed to next year.

    I doubt the Inquiry will conclude before this time next year, by which time we will probably have a new Government. It will have its hands full, so I am not sure how much time and attention the results of the Inquiry will receive. Maybe that's what they would want. The origins of the scandal go back to Blair/Harman.
    More importantly, the permanent structures of government are up to their necks in it. Not just the politicians.

    It’s in no one’s interest to find out what happened. Well, no one who *matters*

    #NU10K
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    I tested positive, as did most of my colleagues. Alas, in our case, the beast is back.

    PS curiously my wife who got ill just after me, with the similar symptoms, never tested positive with a LFT.

    Two bugs or are the tests missing some people?
    Let’s hope it’s just boring old Covid (nasty as it is)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    If only you'd all been WFH...
    I do , we got it visiting wife's sister in hospital it seems, despite being very careful.
  • The basic Tory problem is that people have decided it's Time for a Change, and are no longer paying attention to the details. And "Does 2p off NI but frozen PA mean you're better or worse off?" comes under the heading of detail. Possibly Truss had the right idea in principle - they have to do dramatic stuff to make anyone even listen.

    Similarly, I was chatting to a politically-informed friend living alone and we were both surprised that we'd had £500 winter allowances, wasn't it £200? Turns out the Tories topped it up by £300 "cost of living allowance" and neither of us even noticed. Are we unusual? I suppose it'll disappear next year whoever is in power, unless the parties get into an annoying auction for "who can bribe voting pensioners most".

    From the headline, I was half expecting a "a year makes naff all difference" article. Yougov twelve months ago was C22L45, last week it was C24L43.

    The Conservative hope was that Sunak would pull up the ratings of his party; what's happened is that the party has dragged him down. There was always a decent chance of that, even if Sunak hadn't been as disappointing as he has turned out to be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, 2 blistering articles about the utterly shameful silence and denial by too many human rights and feminist groups and other self-important commentators with no moral compass (yes, Owen, that means you) of the sexual violence inflicted on women and girls on 7 October.

    Grim - but essential - reading.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whys-the-metoo-crowd-silent-on-hamas-rape-g8m5mkpf9

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

    An absolute winter wonderland here now.

    The Gaby Hinsliff article is brilliant and devastating and clearly aimed at Owen Jones. Civil War at the Guardian….
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    My office (London) had a wave of COVID. It took dozens of people out at once. It’s a nasty variant. Everyone who got it ( me included ) was taken out for a week and couple haven’t made it back properly. Nasty bug.

    Do you think this is definitely Covid? Out here in the east people are getting mysterious bugs but testing neg

    I repeat: my hunch is that it’s normal winter bugs but everyone’s paranoid
    If it were a new wave of Covid we'd have heard about it by now and Sage wouldn't be disbanding.
    AIUI there's a big issue with the amount of testing going down week-on-week, but the positivity rate going up.

    I fear the government really don't want to deal with another Covid wave, so they're ignoring the fact we've got one. It's yet another head-in-the-sand moment from Sunak.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307
    edited December 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
    Oh, I am sure Vennells will appear, and quite possibly the rest of her Board. It may be a long way down the line yet though. The PO is clearly playing it as long and slow as possible, deliberately delaying and obstructing the Inquiry wherever it can. Since it is owned by the Government, we can infer that it is doing so with Government consent, if not encouragement.

    We were due to hear recently from the extremely interesting witness Gareth Jenkins, who was the Expert Witness Fujitsu presented to reassure everyone that the Horizon system was 'robust'. Shortly before he was due up, the PO dumped thousands of emails on the Inquiry which it had just somehow discovered. Since some of these related to Mr J, his appearance had to be postponed to next year.

    I doubt the Inquiry will conclude before this time next year, by which time we will probably have a new Government. It will have its hands full, so I am not sure how much time and attention the results of the Inquiry will receive. Maybe that's what they would want. The origins of the scandal go back to Blair/Harman.
    It is worth watching the criminal lawyer, Mr Singh, be cross-examined yesterday morning about how the expert witness was not in fact an expert. It was like trying to nail jelly to a wall though Beer did a fantastic job. Even the judge got furious with Singh - who had to deny everything he wrote and said at the time because he had utterly failed to comply with any of the requirements relating to expert witnesses. It was on the back of this utterly flawed and dishonest evidence and Singh's total failure to comply with the laws governing how prosecutions should be conducted that Seema Misra, 8 weeks pregnant with her second child, was convicted and imprisoned on her son's 10th birthday.

    Prison is too good for the likes of Singh. He should be stripped of his pension and struck off. An utter weasel.
  • The basic Tory problem is that people have decided it's Time for a Change, and are no longer paying attention to the details. And "Does 2p off NI but frozen PA mean you're better or worse off?" comes under the heading of detail. Possibly Truss had the right idea in principle - they have to do dramatic stuff to make anyone even listen.

    Similarly, I was chatting to a politically-informed friend living alone and we were both surprised that we'd had £500 winter allowances, wasn't it £200? Turns out the Tories topped it up by £300 "cost of living allowance" and neither of us even noticed. Are we unusual? I suppose it'll disappear next year whoever is in power, unless the parties get into an annoying auction for "who can bribe voting pensioners most".

    If you live alone or no one you live with is eligible for the Winter Fuel Payment
    You’ll get either:

    £500 if you were born between 25 September 1943 and 24 September 1957
    £600 if you were born before 25 September 1943


    https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment/how-much-youll-get
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245
    edited December 2023
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, 2 blistering articles about the utterly shameful silence and denial by too many human rights and feminist groups and other self-important commentators with no moral compass (yes, Owen, that means you) of the sexual violence inflicted on women and girls on 7 October.

    Grim - but essential - reading.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whys-the-metoo-crowd-silent-on-hamas-rape-g8m5mkpf9

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

    An absolute winter wonderland here now.

    The Gaby Hinsliff article is brilliant and devastating and clearly aimed at Owen Jones. Civil War at the Guardian….
    It’s fairly basic racism - Hamas are Like That because they are Third World People. Sanders of The River could have told you that.
  • I've just fallen down a conspiracy rabbithole.
    Apparently, JFK Jr (dead for nearly a quarter of a century) is about to make himself known to the people and become Trump's running mate. I've just waded through a Facebook post that popped up on my feed, it was over 3k comments. Right wing religious fruitcakery at its finest, all certain that it's happening, quoting "facts" and praising Jesus and God, blaming the Clintons, Obama, Gates, George Clooney.. then it swung into flat earth, NASA and even welcomed back Princess Diana (who is apparently very much alive and well and a close friend of JFK Jr and is saving children from adrenochrome harvesting)
    If this is a fair representation of a large chunk of the US, they probably need nuking from orbit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570
    Really off-topic:

    I had no idea that Italy had more than one leaning tower:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67599067

    Whereas London used to have the Leaning Tower of South Woodford, where you could stand near the top floor and look down on the roofs of cars on the North Circular (*)

    (*) Slightly exaggerated. But only slightly.
  • Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
    Oh, I am sure Vennells will appear, and quite possibly the rest of her Board. It may be a long way down the line yet though. The PO is clearly playing it as long and slow as possible, deliberately delaying and obstructing the Inquiry wherever it can. Since it is owned by the Government, we can infer that it is doing so with Government consent, if not encouragement.

    We were due to hear recently from the extremely interesting witness Gareth Jenkins, who was the Expert Witness Fujitsu presented to reassure everyone that the Horizon system was 'robust'. Shortly before he was due up, the PO dumped thousands of emails on the Inquiry which it had just somehow discovered. Since some of these related to Mr J, his appearance had to be postponed to next year.

    I doubt the Inquiry will conclude before this time next year, by which time we will probably have a new Government. It will have its hands full, so I am not sure how much time and attention the results of the Inquiry will receive. Maybe that's what they would want. The origins of the scandal go back to Blair/Harman.
    It is worth watching the criminal lawyer, Mr Singh, be cross-examined yesterday morning about how the expert witness was not in fact an expert. It was like trying to nail jelly to a wall though Beer did a fantastic job. Even the judge got furious with Singh - who had to deny everything he wrote and said at the time because he had utterly failed to comply with any of the requirements relating to expert witnesses. It was on the back of this utterly flawed and dishonest evidence and Singh's total failure to comply with the laws governing how prosecutions should be conducted that Seema Misra, 8 weeks pregnant with her second child, was convicted and imprisoned on her son's 10th birthday.

    Prison is too good for the likes of Singh. He should be stripped of his pension and struck off. An utter weasel.
    Yes, I saw it, Ms C, and agree with everything you say.

    The one thing Singh was good at was blathering and wasting time, which is presumably what the PO (and the Government) wants witnesses to do. I should think it won't help Singh himself though. On his Inquiry performance alone (and yes, Beer was brilliant) I should say there is a strong prima facie case for a charge of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

    If it ever gets to the Old Bailey, I'll be in the gallery.
  • I see the BBC have updated their report about a bank closure in Richmond from it being the last one in Sunak's constituency to being only part of the constituency.

    There's at least four banks in Northallerton - the largest town in Richmond constituency.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67583574

    Has Rishi pledged to halt bank closures? Why is this a story? Banks are closing all over the country, and many of those still open are little more than halls full of machines to accept deposits and dole out cash.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,260

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, 2 blistering articles about the utterly shameful silence and denial by too many human rights and feminist groups and other self-important commentators with no moral compass (yes, Owen, that means you) of the sexual violence inflicted on women and girls on 7 October.

    Grim - but essential - reading.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whys-the-metoo-crowd-silent-on-hamas-rape-g8m5mkpf9

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

    An absolute winter wonderland here now.

    The Gaby Hinsliff article is brilliant and devastating and clearly aimed at Owen Jones. Civil War at the Guardian….
    It’s fairly basic racism - Hamas are Like That because they are Third World People. Sanders of The River could have told you that.
    I dunno. There’s also an element of “rape accusations are Islamophobia”

    I have literally seen that argument. Hamas are hard fighters but also heroic resisters, sure they shoot prople, but rape??? No no no. They’re good Muslim boys

    It’s grotesque
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245

    I've just fallen down a conspiracy rabbithole.
    Apparently, JFK Jr (dead for nearly a quarter of a century) is about to make himself known to the people and become Trump's running mate. I've just waded through a Facebook post that popped up on my feed, it was over 3k comments. Right wing religious fruitcakery at its finest, all certain that it's happening, quoting "facts" and praising Jesus and God, blaming the Clintons, Obama, Gates, George Clooney.. then it swung into flat earth, NASA and even welcomed back Princess Diana (who is apparently very much alive and well and a close friend of JFK Jr and is saving children from adrenochrome harvesting)
    If this is a fair representation of a large chunk of the US, they probably need nuking from orbit.

    Fake news. The JFK story is a cover for the return of Elvis.
  • Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Slight but noticeable uptick in mask wearing in Bangkok

    Please god NO

    Nothing to indicate any concern from my family in Bangkok. My son is about to visit us to pick up his family’s Christmas presents and deliver those for here.

    And, from previous thread, what an appalling situation at the post office enquiry! It’s already gone from bad to worse; now, as I say, it’s gone to appalling.
    I really wonder what we going to see when the top brass gets into the witness box!

    And after all that, good morning, one at all! (Except any of the post office top brass who read this!)
    First of all, they won't give evidence. Too high a risk they might incriminate themselves.

    And secondly, we don't really want them in the witness box. As a country we need to see them in the dock. But that won't happen either.

    There are loads of inept, arrogant scofflaws with the intellectual capacity of roast potatoes in positions of power who got there through their connections and stay there because nobody who can get rid of them wants to.

    And the country suffers for it.
    Oh, I am sure Vennells will appear, and quite possibly the rest of her Board. It may be a long way down the line yet though. The PO is clearly playing it as long and slow as possible, deliberately delaying and obstructing the Inquiry wherever it can. Since it is owned by the Government, we can infer that it is doing so with Government consent, if not encouragement.

    We were due to hear recently from the extremely interesting witness Gareth Jenkins, who was the Expert Witness Fujitsu presented to reassure everyone that the Horizon system was 'robust'. Shortly before he was due up, the PO dumped thousands of emails on the Inquiry which it had just somehow discovered. Since some of these related to Mr J, his appearance had to be postponed to next year.

    I doubt the Inquiry will conclude before this time next year, by which time we will probably have a new Government. It will have its hands full, so I am not sure how much time and attention the results of the Inquiry will receive. Maybe that's what they would want. The origins of the scandal go back to Blair/Harman.
    It is worth watching the criminal lawyer, Mr Singh, be cross-examined yesterday morning about how the expert witness was not in fact an expert. It was like trying to nail jelly to a wall though Beer did a fantastic job. Even the judge got furious with Singh - who had to deny everything he wrote and said at the time because he had utterly failed to comply with any of the requirements relating to expert witnesses. It was on the back of this utterly flawed and dishonest evidence and Singh's total failure to comply with the laws governing how prosecutions should be conducted that Seema Misra, 8 weeks pregnant with her second child, was convicted and imprisoned on her son's 10th birthday.

    Prison is too good for the likes of Singh. He should be stripped of his pension and struck off. An utter weasel.
    Yes, I saw it, Ms C, and agree with everything you say.

    The one thing Singh was good at was blathering and wasting time, which is presumably what the PO (and the Government) wants witnesses to do. I should think it won't help Singh himself though. On his Inquiry performance alone (and yes, Beer was brilliant) I should say there is a strong prima facie case for a charge of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

    If it ever gets to the Old Bailey, I'll be in the gallery.
    PS It was hilarious when Sir Wyn Nice-Oldthing lost his rag with Singh! Now all we need is for the fireless Welshman to show similar testiness towards the Government which owns this shower of shite.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,570

    I've just fallen down a conspiracy rabbithole.
    Apparently, JFK Jr (dead for nearly a quarter of a century) is about to make himself known to the people and become Trump's running mate. I've just waded through a Facebook post that popped up on my feed, it was over 3k comments. Right wing religious fruitcakery at its finest, all certain that it's happening, quoting "facts" and praising Jesus and God, blaming the Clintons, Obama, Gates, George Clooney.. then it swung into flat earth, NASA and even welcomed back Princess Diana (who is apparently very much alive and well and a close friend of JFK Jr and is saving children from adrenochrome harvesting)
    If this is a fair representation of a large chunk of the US, they probably need nuking from orbit.

    IME it can be people sh*tposting on a stupid 'story', egged on by a fair number of trolls. The number of people who really believe it all will be few.

    But there is a worrying amount of religiosity and ignoring science around, especially, it seems, in parts of the US. When combined with an inability to deal with the world as it is, rather than how they'd like it, it can be a dangerously heady mix.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, 2 blistering articles about the utterly shameful silence and denial by too many human rights and feminist groups and other self-important commentators with no moral compass (yes, Owen, that means you) of the sexual violence inflicted on women and girls on 7 October.

    Grim - but essential - reading.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whys-the-metoo-crowd-silent-on-hamas-rape-g8m5mkpf9

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

    An absolute winter wonderland here now.

    Yes, I posted the Guardian piece on my Facebook page with the comment that criticising Israel shouldn't blind us to what Hamas did. There's a nice reply from an Iraqi refugee.

    https://www.facebook.com/NickPalmerNottingham
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643

    I've just fallen down a conspiracy rabbithole.
    Apparently, JFK Jr (dead for nearly a quarter of a century) is about to make himself known to the people and become Trump's running mate. I've just waded through a Facebook post that popped up on my feed, it was over 3k comments. Right wing religious fruitcakery at its finest, all certain that it's happening, quoting "facts" and praising Jesus and God, blaming the Clintons, Obama, Gates, George Clooney.. then it swung into flat earth, NASA and even welcomed back Princess Diana (who is apparently very much alive and well and a close friend of JFK Jr and is saving children from adrenochrome harvesting)
    If this is a fair representation of a large chunk of the US, they probably need nuking from orbit.

    There’s some mad stuff out there. I read a story in which Liz Truss became Prime Minister
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,245

    Really off-topic:

    I had no idea that Italy had more than one leaning tower:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67599067

    Whereas London used to have the Leaning Tower of South Woodford, where you could stand near the top floor and look down on the roofs of cars on the North Circular (*)

    (*) Slightly exaggerated. But only slightly.

    The Bologna towers were as a result of a mad competition for status between rich families. Built on the cheap. They are remarkable and well worth seeing.

    The square mile of really ancient Bologna is one of my favourite places in Italy.
This discussion has been closed.