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A land of many (black) waters – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Haley’s figures seem to overlook the probability that if she wins the GOP nomination her chances will be scuppered by Trump standing as an independent.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    Bring back Jim'll Fix It and the Black and White Minstrels. Great days.
    They could bring back Top of the Pops, showing Jim, Garry Glitter, and Jonathan King, all having fun together. And Animal Hospital with Rolf.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,293
    edited December 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt

    It is screamingly obvious there will be a full on extremist government jn the west within a decade or so

    You could argue Trump was fairly close. Closer than Meloni. Orban is close

    And it might not be extreme right - could be left. Certainly don’t rule it out. Everything is pushing politics towards the edges - tho my hunch is far right is much more likely because so much of the pressure is from migration and from the woke left pushing red buttons

    I hope not, Leon, but you have to say it's possible. Trump2 would fit the bill, as soon as next year, and that's a 2.6 shot to happen. Ok so I reckon not but plenty of far more seasoned pundits than me think otherwise.

    As for far right v far left, yes the former has by far the easier path to power in the democratic west. It takes real skill and guts to fight racism and xenophobia. Pandering, fostering and exploiting it, less so.
    Oddly, for all that Orban is very much Of The Right, my visit to Budapest earlier this year very much gave the impression of a globally-integrated, youthful and liberal place (and prosperous with it). Like Meloni, I suspect he's a bit more pragmatic behind closed doors.

    Fascism is possible, but I don't think it will actually resolve any of the issues driving people to vote for it. We have seen, for example, the abject failure of our populist rightist government to seriously control immigration ('tens of thousands', lol), because they don't take the problem seriously from a policy/delivery POV, only from a 'talking tough' optics POV. It doesn't cost much to have vans with GO HOME on the side driving around; developing a robust and modern immigration system (with the right staffing, infrastructure and equipment) does.
    Your first paragraph suggests that a British government that actually was tough on cultural issues, as opposed to just talking tough, would be popular, even among people who currently think the Tories are fascistic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,125

    Sandpit said:

    Space post. The latest presentation on the Long March 9 launch vehicle the Chinese Government is building contains this

    img src="https://i.imgur.com/JICXIpU.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

    26 Methalox FFSC engines on the first stage.....

    About as reliable as a Soviet N-1 then.
    The N-1 is misunderstood.

    They were attempting all up testing - for a tiny fraction of the Saturn 5 budget, they nearly got it working. A couple more launches and they would have had it working.

    The big problems were a complete lack of ground testing of the individual engines - explosively opening valves! - plus poor computer control.

    The program was already dead, politically, when they were launching. The Soviet leadership was already moving away from attempting to catch up with the Americans in space. Funding was already cut off - they were using up what they had to try and persuade the Big Bosses to turn the taps on again.
    What got me about the N1 was that, in order to launch it, they had to cut off water supply to the nearby city for a week or so - because of all the water required for the deluge system. Instead of building a better water supply, they just cut off the water supply to the people...

    And yes, having engines that could not be ground-tested was stupid. As was not building a ground-test facility for stages, as the US did for Saturn V. From memory, the engineers and project managers knew this and argued for it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouYoF9cQI44
    The problem was that the engines were literally one shot and done. Couldn’t be tested. So they tested a sample of each batch…

    So even if they had tested the stages on the ground, would have required a complete engine change.

    Before SpaceX, engines were heavily integrated into the stage. A full engine change like that would have been close to a rebuild.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,125

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Space post. The latest presentation on the Long March 9 launch vehicle the Chinese Government is building contains this

    img src="https://i.imgur.com/JICXIpU.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

    26 Methalox FFSC engines on the first stage.....

    About as reliable as a Soviet N-1 then.
    It's not like there's been a recent launch of a massive 33-engine methalox rocket recently... :open_mouth:
    Elon does a lot of business in China...
    The copying seems to be “whatever SpaceX was doing 5 years ago”

    He’s been pointing out for years that patenting rocket technology merely provides a blueprint. How do you sue a government or a government’s pet military contractor for infringing?

    EDIT : I’m expecting an other Long March 9 update, as are most observers. Following the announcement of Starship version 2.
    It turns out copying rockets is a bit like copying Concorde. Viewers of the recent Channel 4 documentary will know how Russian spies passed the blueprints to Moscow but Russian engineers missed crucial aspects of the air intakes so while Concordski might have been first into service, it was also first to crash.
    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/concorde-the-race-for-supersonic
    IANAE, but I'm unconvinced by that argument. Yes, there was some copying, but the designs are actually significantly different in various ways; e.g. the canards on Konkordski, the positioning of the engines, and even the delta wing shapes differ.

    What did converge were the requirements. And if you try to build something to do the same task with roughly the same technology level, you may get things that look very similar on the surface - because that's the best design for the job. The same thing happened with the Space Shuttle and Buran: they were designed to perform pretty much identical tasks, and so they look superficially similar.
    Concordes wing design allowed them to get away with no canards - which saved a lot of weight.

    No Soviet designs seemed to “get” the delta. They stuck to simple triangles, again and again.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Sean_F said:

    We Think has Lab. 44%, Con 28%, Lib Dem 9%, Reform 8%.

    Almost a cause for celebration for the Tories, to see figures of only 44/28.
    Indeed. Whereas in reality, not a single poll between pre-Iraq War Blair in 2002 and post-Partygate Johnson in 2022 gave Labour a lead of more than +16.
  • algarkirk said:

    The photo of this thatchers heaven brings to mind: an Anglo Saxon mead hall of the Northumbrian golden age, a perfect building for a June wedding reception in cloudless sunshine, and the ideal setting for long drinks with little umbrellas in them. Please, no wars. Maybe Leon could report on this little known place sometime?

    That's an interesting point: aren't many rural low-tech housing around the world essentially the same design? Round, wooden, mud or mud-brick walls, with strengthening material (e.g. hair), with a peaked wooden roof, with thatched covering.

    There are obvious exceptions, e.g. Skara Brae on Orkney, but it seems a rather common example of convergent design evolution. The best shapes for strength, materials and purpose. I wonder if you could place an 1800-era tribesman from PNG in an Iron Age British roundhouse and have them feel at home?
    At home yes. But bloody cold I suspect.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,125

    algarkirk said:

    The photo of this thatchers heaven brings to mind: an Anglo Saxon mead hall of the Northumbrian golden age, a perfect building for a June wedding reception in cloudless sunshine, and the ideal setting for long drinks with little umbrellas in them. Please, no wars. Maybe Leon could report on this little known place sometime?

    That's an interesting point: aren't many rural low-tech housing around the world essentially the same design? Round, wooden, mud or mud-brick walls, with strengthening material (e.g. hair), with a peaked wooden roof, with thatched covering.

    There are obvious exceptions, e.g. Skara Brae on Orkney, but it seems a rather common example of convergent design evolution. The best shapes for strength, materials and purpose. I wonder if you could place an 1800-era tribesman from PNG in an Iron Age British roundhouse and have them feel at home?
    At home yes. But bloody cold I suspect.
    It would be interesting to see what you could do with modern insulation design.

    To start with, a modern chimney vs hole in the roof.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Space post. The latest presentation on the Long March 9 launch vehicle the Chinese Government is building contains this

    img src="https://i.imgur.com/JICXIpU.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

    26 Methalox FFSC engines on the first stage.....

    About as reliable as a Soviet N-1 then.
    It's not like there's been a recent launch of a massive 33-engine methalox rocket recently... :open_mouth:
    Elon does a lot of business in China...
    The copying seems to be “whatever SpaceX was doing 5 years ago”

    He’s been pointing out for years that patenting rocket technology merely provides a blueprint. How do you sue a government or a government’s pet military contractor for infringing?

    EDIT : I’m expecting an other Long March 9 update, as are most observers. Following the announcement of Starship version 2.
    It turns out copying rockets is a bit like copying Concorde. Viewers of the recent Channel 4 documentary will know how Russian spies passed the blueprints to Moscow but Russian engineers missed crucial aspects of the air intakes so while Concordski might have been first into service, it was also first to crash.
    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/concorde-the-race-for-supersonic
    Yes Concordski was always going to be a total failure, because the Soviets didn’t understand the criticality of the wing and inlet design, even after they had the blueprints and were looking at them.
    I remember in Airframe Michael Crichton explained that nearly all of the engineering on a plane and most of its intellectual property was in the wings. The airline manufacturer contemplating having these built in China was the backdrop of the story. It was an excellent book, one of several where Crichton preached the importance of actually making things you want to work.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    Ghedebrav said:



    Oddly, for all that Orban is very much Of The Right, my visit to Budapest earlier this year very much gave the impression of a globally-integrated, youthful and liberal place (and prosperous with it). Like Meloni, I suspect he's a bit more pragmatic behind closed doors.

    Budapest is in fact liberal/left and relatively anti-Orban - the only area that voted with the opposition in 2022. The pattern that the big cities trend left and the rural area trend right is common across Europe. I wouldn't use that to conclude the Orban is not as bad as he seems.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    BTW this is an extraordinary piece about Donald Trump: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/1/2209048/-With-gag-order-reinstated-Trump-shifts-attacks-to-judge-s-wife?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web

    After the reinstatement of his gag preventing him from defaming either the Judge or his clerk he posts a series of tweets about the Judge's wife, where he lives and his kids. He really needs to be remanded in custody. And psychiatrically assessed by a court appointed psychiatrist.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653
    Ghedebrav said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt

    It is screamingly obvious there will be a full on extremist government jn the west within a decade or so

    You could argue Trump was fairly close. Closer than Meloni. Orban is close

    And it might not be extreme right - could be left. Certainly don’t rule it out. Everything is pushing politics towards the edges - tho my hunch is far right is much more likely because so much of the pressure is from migration and from the woke left pushing red buttons

    I hope not, Leon, but you have to say it's possible. Trump2 would fit the bill, as soon as next year, and that's a 2.6 shot to happen. Ok so I reckon not but plenty of far more seasoned pundits than me think otherwise.

    As for far right v far left, yes the former has by far the easier path to power in the democratic west. It takes real skill and guts to fight racism and xenophobia. Pandering, fostering and exploiting it, less so.
    Oddly, for all that Orban is very much Of The Right, my visit to Budapest earlier this year very much gave the impression of a globally-integrated, youthful and liberal place (and prosperous with it). Like Meloni, I suspect he's a bit more pragmatic behind closed doors.

    Fascism is possible, but I don't think it will actually resolve any of the issues driving people to vote for it. We have seen, for example, the abject failure of our populist rightist government to seriously control immigration ('tens of thousands', lol), because they don't take the problem seriously from a policy/delivery POV, only from a 'talking tough' optics POV. It doesn't cost much to have vans with GO HOME on the side driving around; developing a robust and modern immigration system (with the right staffing, infrastructure and equipment) does.

    Per the excellent John Gray video (on Joe Media) somebody posted here a few days back, a lot of the popular outlook in our declining liberal democracies is quite leftist/statist in many ways.

    If it does happen, Trump seems by far the most likely. He's a deranged narcissist with a massive groundswell of support (and tbh I feel the segments of the US are more apt to trying out a bit of full-on fash than in Europe, especially if it comes Gilead-flavoured).
    I suppose one can imagine a Suella figure (or Suella even) becoming Tory LOTO and winning a subsequent election against a backdrop of weak economy, declining living standards and high immigration. So then we'd have the Populist Right in power here but I wouldn't call that Fascism. Trump2, yes, different kettle of fish entirely. I wouldn't rule anything out with that.

    What interests (and rather bugs) me is why in (relatively) tough or turbulent times the appeal of the Populist Right is so much greater in the west than the Populist Left. I'm not too keen on the Populist Left, the divisive "1%" rhetoric and all that sort of thing, however if the concerns of 'ordinary people' are mainly economic rather than identity, how come they don't go that way at least as much as they go for the likes of Braverman, Farage, Trump, LePen etc.

    It's like a platform of radical redistributive economic policies which would benefit them in the pocket is not enough or doesn't sufficiently engage. If it's there at all it has to be pepped up with some 'identity' stuff, country's full, multiculturalism isn't working, too many migrants, Muslim invasion, values under threat etc etc. Then you might have a chance of pulling in the votes.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,080
    This header brings back memories of recent history for me. I remember the comings and goings of Cheddi Jagan and Forbes Burnham - sometimes democratically, sometimes not. The former was regarded as a Marxist by the USA and by some in Britain (although a British Conservative Colonial Secretary thought him no different from the British Labour Party).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712

    algarkirk said:

    The photo of this thatchers heaven brings to mind: an Anglo Saxon mead hall of the Northumbrian golden age, a perfect building for a June wedding reception in cloudless sunshine, and the ideal setting for long drinks with little umbrellas in them. Please, no wars. Maybe Leon could report on this little known place sometime?

    That's an interesting point: aren't many rural low-tech housing around the world essentially the same design? Round, wooden, mud or mud-brick walls, with strengthening material (e.g. hair), with a peaked wooden roof, with thatched covering.

    There are obvious exceptions, e.g. Skara Brae on Orkney, but it seems a rather common example of convergent design evolution. The best shapes for strength, materials and purpose. I wonder if you could place an 1800-era tribesman from PNG in an Iron Age British roundhouse and have them feel at home?
    At home yes. But bloody cold I suspect.
    It would be interesting to see what you could do with modern insulation design.

    To start with, a modern chimney vs hole in the roof.
    I recall reading, and think I’ve posted before, that someone calculated that the average English mediaeval peasant, transported to the 30’s, would have had little problem with farming techniques, except threshing machines. Sixty years later he’d have been completely nonplussed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Haley’s figures seem to overlook the probability that if she wins the GOP nomination her chances will be scuppered by Trump standing as an independent.
    That's a point yes. I think backing her for the Nomination and laying her for the WH is a good strategy at these prices. In fact I've done some of that.
  • Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653
    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Good point (about the skewed EC) but I'm not sure that quite explains it. Eg the generic Dem v GOP market for the WH has the GOP as only very marginal favourites. And Trump's implied price (giving him the Nom) is close to Evens.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    Let's face it, if you are an SNP politician the pool of people willing to sleep with you will inevitably be somewhat small so this sort of thing is hardly a surprise.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    It was once British Guiana and I seem to recall the Daily Worker getting very exercised about election results there in the 50’s.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    There's another issue, which is to do with Putin's "multipolar" world and do countries get to invade neighbouring ones if they feel like it
  • kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    I don't watch broadcast live TV or use BBC iPlayer, so can't really comment on the quality of the programmes, but if people don't think the BBC are "fun" anymore and find alternatives via streaming, many people are going to think "Why am I paying for a TV licence when I don't really need to?"
    The BBC needs licence fee payers far, far more than the licence fee payers need the BBC.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    It was once British Guiana and I seem to recall the Daily Worker getting very exercised about election results there in the 50’s.
    That's before my time, the Daily Worker. Think it became the Morning Star?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    It was once British Guiana and I seem to recall the Daily Worker getting very exercised about election results there in the 50’s.
    That's before my time, the Daily Worker. Think it became the Morning Star?
    That’s right. I used to (sometimes) buy one of the three copies on sale at the commuter railway station I used on the way to school.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    There's another issue, which is to do with Putin's "multipolar" world and do countries get to invade neighbouring ones if they feel like it
    They shouldn't. Might is not right. If 'multipolar' were to mean more of that it would not be much of an improvement on American hegemony would it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,133
    At last common sense on Diego Garcia. Giving it to China ... er ... Mauritius without the inhabitants' consent was always a very dangerous idea.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/01/uk-drop-plan-to-hand-chagos-islands-back-mauritius/
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,831

    Informative piece.

    Yes, useful, thanks JJ.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    Fishing said:

    At last common sense on Diego Garcia. Giving it to China ... er ... Mauritius without the inhabitants' consent was always a very dangerous idea.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/01/uk-drop-plan-to-hand-chagos-islands-back-mauritius/

    It’s ok, we’re only breaking international law in a limited and specific way. :smiley:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653
    edited December 2023
    DavidL said:

    BTW this is an extraordinary piece about Donald Trump: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/1/2209048/-With-gag-order-reinstated-Trump-shifts-attacks-to-judge-s-wife?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web

    After the reinstatement of his gag preventing him from defaming either the Judge or his clerk he posts a series of tweets about the Judge's wife, where he lives and his kids. He really needs to be remanded in custody. And psychiatrically assessed by a court appointed psychiatrist.

    If only. It'd be a chunky report too. Reminds me of the "Shrinks" episode of Fawlty Towers. In reference to Basil, "there's enough there for a convention".
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,831
    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    Bring back Jim'll Fix It and the Black and White Minstrels. Great days.
    They could bring back Top of the Pops, showing Jim, Garry Glitter, and Jonathan King, all having fun together. And Animal Hospital with Rolf.
    I know this is a joke post, but I would very much like to see TOTP reinstated. I am not connected to current pop music enough to know how the format should evolve and who should present it, but I think it has a value as an aid to social cohesion, and supports our domestic music industry. If the BBC is for anything, it's surely for this.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    It was once British Guiana and I seem to recall the Daily Worker getting very exercised about election results there in the 50’s.
    That's before my time, the Daily Worker. Think it became the Morning Star?
    That’s right. I used to (sometimes) buy one of the three copies on sale at the commuter railway station I used on the way to school.
    Ah great minds etc. I went through a short phase of reading the MS as a teenager.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,474

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    Tryst, like bonk, romp and racy seem to be words only used by prurient journalists.
  • Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    Bring back Jim'll Fix It and the Black and White Minstrels. Great days.
    They could bring back Top of the Pops, showing Jim, Garry Glitter, and Jonathan King, all having fun together. And Animal Hospital with Rolf.
    I know this is a joke post, but I would very much like to see TOTP reinstated. I am not connected to current pop music enough to know how the format should evolve and who should present it, but I think it has a value as an aid to social cohesion, and supports our domestic music industry. If the BBC is for anything, it's surely for this.
    No one buys music anymore. We all pay some streaming service 15 quid a month to listen to everything whenever we want.
    Bands make money from touring and merch.
    TOTP would do nothing to help "domestic"music as we listen to artists from all over the world.
  • dixiedean said:

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    Tryst, like bonk, romp and racy seem to be words only used by prurient journalists.
    They should use words like fornicators and adulterers.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,904
    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737

    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    Bring back Jim'll Fix It and the Black and White Minstrels. Great days.
    They could bring back Top of the Pops, showing Jim, Garry Glitter, and Jonathan King, all having fun together. And Animal Hospital with Rolf.
    I know this is a joke post, but I would very much like to see TOTP reinstated. I am not connected to current pop music enough to know how the format should evolve and who should present it, but I think it has a value as an aid to social cohesion, and supports our domestic music industry. If the BBC is for anything, it's surely for this.
    The basic problem with the format now would be that the charts don't move an awful lot week to week thanks to the self-reinforcing nature of streaming (if a track is popular it goes on more playlists, and thus gets played more) and are so dominated by big international artists who would only ever turn up if they were over here for something else.

    Even our homegrown megastars would be unlikely to appear as they simply don't need it and increasingly didn't grow up with it. These days, even very successful indie acts are much more focused on the albums chart as they know they won't get a look in on the singles one.

    Better to bring something back like The Tube or reboot Jools so it's more youth-orientated and give acts that really need it a bit of a boost, not try and beg Beyonce or Taylor Swift to record a video message before you play a video anyone interested has already seen on YouTube.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,474
    On topic.
    Many thanks for the header.
    Had no idea about any of it.
  • Manchester United are under investigation by Trafford Council after several people alleged they became unwell after being served raw chicken during an event hosted at Old Trafford.

    United, who declined to comment, are also conducting an internal investigation after receiving complaints from guests who attended an event hosted at the club’s stadium in recent months. The precise nature of the event is not known.

    Symptoms of food poisoning can include diarrhoea, fever, stomach cramps, nausea and vomiting. Salmonella, an infection associated with raw chicken, can result in hospitalisation. The investigations by the council and the club are expected to examine whether symptoms experienced by the guests were related to what they consumed on United’s premises, or whether other illnesses may have struck down the visitors.


    https://theathletic.com/5105029/2023/12/01/man-utd-chicken-food-safety-old-trafford/
  • Thames Water owners pile group with debt
    Shareholders structured a £500mn cash injection as a loan charging 8% interest
    ...
    ...
    The utility is now under close watch by the government, which is on standby for a temporary nationalisation in case it collapses. It is also seeking approval from Ofwat to be allowed to increase customer bills by around 40 per cent — before inflation — by 2030.

    https://www.ft.com/content/4b901734-4ca3-4d02-b51c-ce76c74754fa (£££)

    So much for shareholder investment. Debt up £3 billion in 18 months if I've read it right. Thames Water supplies a quarter of the population of England.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,556
    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    If they want to put him in a tourist attraction then I suggest Madame Tussaud’s although he will be the least lifelike waxwork figure there.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,040
    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    There's another issue, which is to do with Putin's "multipolar" world and do countries get to invade neighbouring ones if they feel like it
    They shouldn't. Might is not right. If 'multipolar' were to mean more of that it would not be much of an improvement on American hegemony would it.
    It would not, yet many people seem to regard that return to territorial acquisitiveness chaos as a positive if it means the hated americans are a little less powerful at the same time.

    It does seem we are edging that way. Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Venezuela, and of course big daddy Russia, all looking or rumoured to be looking for old fashioned conquest as an option with barely any disguise in intent.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,904
    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    If they want to put him in a tourist attraction then I suggest Madame Tussaud’s although he will be the least lifelike waxwork figure there.
    I think an accidental mislaying in the prison register is more his mark.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,125
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    There's another issue, which is to do with Putin's "multipolar" world and do countries get to invade neighbouring ones if they feel like it
    They shouldn't. Might is not right. If 'multipolar' were to mean more of that it would not be much of an improvement on American hegemony would it.
    It would not, yet many people seem to regard that return to territorial acquisitiveness chaos as a positive if it means the hated americans are a little less powerful at the same time.

    It does seem we are edging that way. Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Venezuela, and of course big daddy Russia, all looking or rumoured to be looking for old fashioned conquest as an option with barely any disguise in intent.
    {studies map of France}

    Oh Hell, let’s do what we always do….

    Think of it as reversing Brexit. The fun way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    Bring back Jim'll Fix It and the Black and White Minstrels. Great days.
    They could bring back Top of the Pops, showing Jim, Garry Glitter, and Jonathan King, all having fun together. And Animal Hospital with Rolf.
    I know this is a joke post, but I would very much like to see TOTP reinstated. I am not connected to current pop music enough to know how the format should evolve and who should present it, but I think it has a value as an aid to social cohesion, and supports our domestic music industry. If the BBC is for anything, it's surely for this.
    What I would like to see is The Old Grey Whistle Test being replayed on BBC4. There were some great performances, and live rather than mimed, after the first season or so.

    I am sure it would suck in the Boomers and Gen X I'd not the youngsters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,904
    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
    Ah progress!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    dixiedean said:

    On topic.
    Many thanks for the header.
    Had no idea about any of it.

    Simon Reeve covered it a bit in his recent series, and some of the other issues in the north of the sOuth American continent. I love his programmes, and he is a great interviewer.

    Simon Reeve's South America, Series 1: Episode 1: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001c2ml via @bbciplayer

    I had a flatmate from Guyana when a student. Interesting lifestyle as he was nearly entirely nocturnal.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,399
    edited December 2023
    ...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
    London Bridge. Tower Bridge wasn’t there until 19th C.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,904

    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
    London Bridge. Tower Bridge wasn’t there until 19th C.
    So long as they are constructed to allow Hawker Hunters to fly underneath.
  • kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    I don't watch broadcast live TV or use BBC iPlayer, so can't really comment on the quality of the programmes, but if people don't think the BBC are "fun" anymore and find alternatives via streaming, many people are going to think "Why am I paying for a TV licence when I don't really need to?"
    The BBC needs licence fee payers far, far more than the licence fee payers need the BBC.
    Ofcom report what their masters tell them to report nowadays - very much like the Telegraph.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737
    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,691

    Thames Water owners pile group with debt
    Shareholders structured a £500mn cash injection as a loan charging 8% interest
    ...
    ...
    The utility is now under close watch by the government, which is on standby for a temporary nationalisation in case it collapses. It is also seeking approval from Ofwat to be allowed to increase customer bills by around 40 per cent — before inflation — by 2030.

    https://www.ft.com/content/4b901734-4ca3-4d02-b51c-ce76c74754fa (£££)

    So much for shareholder investment. Debt up £3 billion in 18 months if I've read it right. Thames Water supplies a quarter of the population of England.

    Would be interested to know if any of the equity holders also own the debt.
  • HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
    1894?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
    If Trump is convicted and jailed you can guarantee he will run as an Independent if he doesn't get the nomination and probably get the highest third party vote since 1912.

    His ego would demand it as his act of defiance to the establishment in both parties
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653
    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
    Yes I don't personally think it'll come to it (Biden v Trump) but the absolute backstop is that Joe would beat him again imo. For the reasons you say. Focus and exposure.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    DavidL said:

    BTW this is an extraordinary piece about Donald Trump: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/1/2209048/-With-gag-order-reinstated-Trump-shifts-attacks-to-judge-s-wife?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web

    After the reinstatement of his gag preventing him from defaming either the Judge or his clerk he posts a series of tweets about the Judge's wife, where he lives and his kids. He really needs to be remanded in custody. And psychiatrically assessed by a court appointed psychiatrist.

    This sort of thing illustrates the snag about virtually unlimited freedom of expression guaranteed by the Constitution. We're all in favour of it for normal people, including quite off-centre types, but this sort of intimidation and harassment would get you locked up immediately in Britain. Is it really legal in the US? And how do even militant Republicans live with it? If one of my favourite left-wingers started posting Suella Braverman's home address and details of her children, I'd go right off him.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Evening all :)

    Musing on the possibility of military conflict in Latin America, I'm reminded of the War of the Triple Alliance between 1864 and 1870 - one of the most brutal, yet almost forgotten, wars of the 19th Century. Given it occurred in the same decade as the American Civil War, the ferocity of the conflict between Paraguay and its neighbours has been largely obscured.

    In Francisco Solano Lopez, you have another strong candidate for one of history's greatest butchers. His death ended the war but the territorial and human loss for Paraguay was immense though some of the earlier claims of 90% of the male population having been killed have now been refuted, the country was ruined in a way few others have been.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    This - https://www.itv.com/presscentre/media-releases/cast-update-new-itv-drama-mr-bates-vs-post-office - may bring this scandal to wider notice.

    Thanks to @JosiasJessop for the interesting header.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,191
    I see that the King has been trolling Rishi Rich with a less than subtle choice of tie.

    Reminded me of the late Queen and her EU flag hat.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    May I thank everyone for their comments on this threader.

    I apologise for not having been on here too much; I have been busy familying.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    I hear it’s chilly in Blighty this evening

    https://x.com/sam6788_/status/1730619577153855915?s=46
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,191
    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,904

    DavidL said:

    BTW this is an extraordinary piece about Donald Trump: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/1/2209048/-With-gag-order-reinstated-Trump-shifts-attacks-to-judge-s-wife?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web

    After the reinstatement of his gag preventing him from defaming either the Judge or his clerk he posts a series of tweets about the Judge's wife, where he lives and his kids. He really needs to be remanded in custody. And psychiatrically assessed by a court appointed psychiatrist.

    This sort of thing illustrates the snag about virtually unlimited freedom of expression guaranteed by the Constitution. We're all in favour of it for normal people, including quite off-centre types, but this sort of intimidation and harassment would get you locked up immediately in Britain. Is it really legal in the US? And how do even militant Republicans live with it? If one of my favourite left-wingers started posting Suella Braverman's home address and details of her children, I'd go right off him.
    I always like to consider the extremes when it comes to such questions.

    Suppose anybody could say anything - I don't really have a problem with that.
    Suppose nobody could say anything - very bad.

    It might just be a straight line. Picking a turning point I'll leave to the wise.
  • Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Sad news.

    She was superb as the slightly prissy middle class wife who had basically to be the straight 'man' for most episodes.

  • DavidL said:

    BTW this is an extraordinary piece about Donald Trump: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/1/2209048/-With-gag-order-reinstated-Trump-shifts-attacks-to-judge-s-wife?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web

    After the reinstatement of his gag preventing him from defaming either the Judge or his clerk he posts a series of tweets about the Judge's wife, where he lives and his kids. He really needs to be remanded in custody. And psychiatrically assessed by a court appointed psychiatrist.

    This sort of thing illustrates the snag about virtually unlimited freedom of expression guaranteed by the Constitution. We're all in favour of it for normal people, including quite off-centre types, but this sort of intimidation and harassment would get you locked up immediately in Britain. Is it really legal in the US? And how do even militant Republicans live with it? If one of my favourite left-wingers started posting Suella Braverman's home address and details of her children, I'd go right off him.
    Trump is a clear and very present danger to the republic.

    Do the majority of Americans want to live in a democracy?

    We will soon know.

  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,067

    Thames Water owners pile group with debt
    Shareholders structured a £500mn cash injection as a loan charging 8% interest
    ...
    ...
    The utility is now under close watch by the government, which is on standby for a temporary nationalisation in case it collapses. It is also seeking approval from Ofwat to be allowed to increase customer bills by around 40 per cent — before inflation — by 2030.

    https://www.ft.com/content/4b901734-4ca3-4d02-b51c-ce76c74754fa (£££)

    So much for shareholder investment. Debt up £3 billion in 18 months if I've read it right. Thames Water supplies a quarter of the population of England.

    Strange that other countries* don't privatise their water industries

    *Except Argentina of course, where I believe it's going great...
  • TimS said:

    I hear it’s chilly in Blighty this evening

    https://x.com/sam6788_/status/1730619577153855915?s=46

    My log fire is turned to 11.

    Burning eucalyptus tonight from a tree that died in our garden three winters ago.

    No doubt Mikey Gove will be around with his clipboard later.




  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,866
    edited December 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    Tryst, like bonk, romp and racy seem to be words only used by prurient journalists.
    It doesn't seem all that long ago when murdered bodies were frequently found in places 'often used by courting couples', a term never even in those more euphemistic days used in any other context.
  • Boris Johnson ‘to say sorry’ for Covid complacency

    Former prime minister will apologise for deaths but defend his government’s actions


    Boris Johnson will next week admit that he “unquestionably made mistakes” over Covid but insist that the decisions he took ultimately saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

    In his evidence to the Covid public inquiry the former prime minister is expected to issue an unreserved apology and say that he and his government were initially far too complacent and vastly underestimated the risks posed by the virus.

    He will argue that he had a “basic confidence that things would turn out alright” on the “fallacious logic” that previous health threats such as BSE and Sars had not proven as catastrophic as feared.

    However, he is expected to say that, overall, the government succeeded in its central aim of preventing the NHS from being overwhelmed by making the “right decisions at the right times”. He will insist that all three lockdowns came at the right time and in the process the government saved tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives. He will emphasise the success of the vaccine programme, with UK breakthroughs signalling “the beginning of the end of the pandemic”.

    He will also argue that while the country’s death toll was shocking, Britain had defied most of the gloomiest predictions and “ended the pandemic well down the global league table of excess mortality”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-covid-inquiry-statement-vxk8nqvmb
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Thanks for the interesting header josjess. Is there a potential British involvement here then? Hopefully not?

    What is in our interests? Is Venezuela dismembering another sovereign country (to the point that country is essentially unviable) enough of a threat to our interests to cause us to spend money and treasure on stopping them? And how does our colonial history/guilt play into that?

    I don't know. Much would depend on Venezuela's exact actions, and the reaction of neighbouring countries and the USA.
    It's not our patch at all although I remember when that didn't stop us hightailing it down there. Not here though, I wouldn't think. No direct interest and far less capability even if there was.
    There's another issue, which is to do with Putin's "multipolar" world and do countries get to invade neighbouring ones if they feel like it
    They shouldn't. Might is not right. If 'multipolar' were to mean more of that it would not be much of an improvement on American hegemony would it.
    The US is the most benign of the hegemonic powers - so a multipolar world would be a much worse place.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    I think we can put the current polls into three categories.

    Those that are bad for the Conservatives, those that are really bad for the Conservatives and those that are worse for the Conservatives.

    We can say the first category has those with Labour leads of 10-15 points, the second has Labour leads of 15-20 points and the third has the 20+ leads.

    YouGov has England voting Labour 47%, Conservative 23%, Reform 11% and LDs 10%. That's an 18.5% swing from Conservative to Labour and an 11% swing Conservative to Liberal Democrat - all this before any form of tactical voting.

    As an aside, comparing the responses of YouGov and Techne on the VI when asked of all respondents:

    Techne: 29% Labour, 24% Won't Vote, 15% Conservative, 11% Don't Know
    YouGov: 30% Labour, 18% Don't Know, 15% Conservative, 13% Won't Vote

    So YouGov only finds 13% not going to vote while Techne finds 24% (quite a difference). Is this the way questions are asked or presented? YouGov find 53% "absolutely certain" to vote while the figure with Techne is 44%.

    I don't have an answer - simply an observation from the presented data.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    kamski said:

    felix said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC is too politically correct, say working-class audiences
    Ofcom study has found viewers miss days when BBC was ‘fun’, with output becoming ‘dry’, ‘cringey’ and out of touch

    By Anita Singh, ARTS AND ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR and India McTaggart, ENTERTAINMENT & ROYAL CORRESPONDENT'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/30/bbc-too-politically-correct-working-class-audiences-ofcom

    How does the Telegraph know what ‘working class’ audiences think? Have they been talking to the cleaner and the gardener?
    Unless you think Ofcom and the Telegraph are the same what is your point?
    The report itself has one mention of the term "politically correct" on page 20 of the 34 page document:
    "A key issue, raised by a number of people that we spoke to, was that BBC programming is increasingly
    seen as dry and serious compared to other PSB channels and the major streaming services. While this
    was seen as appropriate for some genres (such as news and current affairs, and certain dramas),
    overall our participants felt there was more ‘fun’ content available elsewhere and often turned to
    other channels or to streaming services for more light-hearted programming.
    BBC content was also seen as increasingly ‘safe’ and, by some, overly politically correct. In explaining
    how the BBC has become ‘safe’ people mentioned past programming they had enjoyed but felt
    wouldn’t be made any more , or they mentioned presenters and talent that they felt the BBC used to
    employ but wouldn’t now (e.g. Ricky Gervais, Jeremy Clarkson)."

    Not unexpectedly, the Telegraph's take on it probably isn't a balanced representation of the main points in the report.
    One media organisation slagging off another?

    Shocked, shocked to the core!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    Tryst, like bonk, romp and racy seem to be words only used by prurient journalists.
    It doesn't seem all that long ago when murdered bodies were frequently found in places 'often used by courting couples', a term never even in those more euphemistic days used in any other context.
    Romp is a classic of the genre. Three-in-a-bed-romp being a particularly regular one. See also sex-pest, Britons, fury at, (police) quiz, fears grow for.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,399

    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Oh, what happened to you?
    Whatever happened to me?
  • TimS said:

    I hear it’s chilly in Blighty this evening

    https://x.com/sam6788_/status/1730619577153855915?s=46

    My log fire is turned to 11.

    Burning eucalyptus tonight from a tree that died in our garden three winters ago.

    No doubt Mikey Gove will be around with his clipboard later.
    I don't wanna look
    Like some kind of fool
    I don't wanna break
    My heart over you
    I'm building a wall
    Everyday it's getting higher
    This time I won't end up
    Another victim of Gove
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,855
    edited December 2023
    Selebian said:

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    That's pretty shocking - there are (SNP) MPs who haven't deleted all messages sent during the pandemic? :open_mouth:
    We haven't had a good clandestine tryst in AGES.

    Were they 'ensconced in a love nest'?
  • TimS said:

    I hear it’s chilly in Blighty this evening

    https://x.com/sam6788_/status/1730619577153855915?s=46

    By Saturday night it should be a tiny bit warmer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    Well now.

    Two SNP politicians allegedly had an affair during lockdown after intimate text messages were reportedly uncovered on a mobile phone.

    The secret relationship is said to have carried on during the Covid pandemic in 2020, when the SNP forced the rest of the country to stay at home under tough lockdown restrictions.

    The devastated spouse of one of the politicians told the Scottish Daily Mail that the clandestine trysts had “wrecked” his marriage. The names of those involved cannot be revealed for legal reasons.

    It echoed Matt Hancock, the former UK health secretary, whose affair with an aide in the same year resulted in him being forced to quit for breaking Covid rules.

    The heartbroken husband also said the betrayal was made even worse after he was warned that he could not make any details public. He said he was left feeling afraid for his own and his family’s safety if he opened up about the alleged affair.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/01/snp-affair-covid-lockdown-text-messages/

    Tryst, like bonk, romp and racy seem to be words only used by prurient journalists.
    It doesn't seem all that long ago when murdered bodies were frequently found in places 'often used by courting couples', a term never even in those more euphemistic days used in any other context.
    Romp is a classic of the genre. Three-in-a-bed-romp being a particularly regular one. See also sex-pest, Britons, fury at, (police) quiz, fears grow for.
    My favourite is that great British euphemism "helping police with their enquiries".
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    This story may help explain events in the header:
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/opec-ministers-meet-discuss-additional-oil-output-cuts-2023-11-30/

    "LONDON/MOSCOW/DUBAI, Nov 30 (Reuters) - OPEC+ oil producers on Thursday agreed to voluntary output cuts totalling about 2.2 million barrels per day (bpd) for early next year led by Saudi Arabia rolling over its current voluntary cut."
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,399

    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Sad news.

    She was superb as the slightly prissy middle class wife who had basically to be the straight 'man' for most episodes.

    Likely Lads, WHTTLikely Lads, Abigail's Party... outlining the climb of the working class to middle class suburbia, car, semi, wife who wants furniture like the magazines. Things changed, and the BBC set it to music and added a laugh track.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Sad news.

    She was superb as the slightly prissy middle class wife who had basically to be the straight 'man' for most episodes.

    Likely Lads, WHTTLikely Lads, Abigail's Party... outlining the climb of the working class to middle class suburbia, car, semi, wife who wants furniture like the magazines. Things changed, and the BBC set it to music and added a laugh track.
    Yes, they have all aged well as a result. Britain's cultural cringe over class is the root of most of our best sitcoms.

    Though Bob's upward social mobility did spring from marrying the bosses daughter!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    This story may help explain events in the header:
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/opec-ministers-meet-discuss-additional-oil-output-cuts-2023-11-30/

    "LONDON/MOSCOW/DUBAI, Nov 30 (Reuters) - OPEC+ oil producers on Thursday agreed to voluntary output cuts totalling about 2.2 million barrels per day (bpd) for early next year led by Saudi Arabia rolling over its current voluntary cut."

    Just stop oil!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989

    This story may help explain events in the header:
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/opec-ministers-meet-discuss-additional-oil-output-cuts-2023-11-30/

    "LONDON/MOSCOW/DUBAI, Nov 30 (Reuters) - OPEC+ oil producers on Thursday agreed to voluntary output cuts totalling about 2.2 million barrels per day (bpd) for early next year led by Saudi Arabia rolling over its current voluntary cut."

    Yet the oil price slumps on the news of less oil. Good news in a sense but is the output cut a recognition of weakening global demand as much as anything else? We're also moving deeper into the Northern Hemisphere winter - if it's a cold one won't demand increase and if supply is cut back won't prices rise?

    I belive global oil output is around 80-85 million barrels a day so 2.2 million isn't a drop in the oilfield but it's not a huge amount.
  • kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
    Yes I don't personally think it'll come to it (Biden v Trump) but the absolute backstop is that Joe would beat him again imo. For the reasons you say. Focus and exposure.
    £20 at evens says it is Biden v Trump - are you up for that?
  • TimS said:

    I hear it’s chilly in Blighty this evening

    https://x.com/sam6788_/status/1730619577153855915?s=46

    By Saturday night it should be a tiny bit warmer.
    Especially if you go indoors.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,904

    kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
    Yes I don't personally think it'll come to it (Biden v Trump) but the absolute backstop is that Joe would beat him again imo. For the reasons you say. Focus and exposure.
    £20 at evens says it is Biden v Trump - are you up for that?
    Vs the 1.6 price on BF?
  • CatMan said:

    Thames Water owners pile group with debt
    Shareholders structured a £500mn cash injection as a loan charging 8% interest
    ...
    ...
    The utility is now under close watch by the government, which is on standby for a temporary nationalisation in case it collapses. It is also seeking approval from Ofwat to be allowed to increase customer bills by around 40 per cent — before inflation — by 2030.

    https://www.ft.com/content/4b901734-4ca3-4d02-b51c-ce76c74754fa (£££)

    So much for shareholder investment. Debt up £3 billion in 18 months if I've read it right. Thames Water supplies a quarter of the population of England.

    Strange that other countries* don't privatise their water industries

    *Except Argentina of course, where I believe it's going great...
    One year’s clean water = one kidney I believe
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Sad news.

    She was superb as the slightly prissy middle class wife who had basically to be the straight 'man' for most episodes.

    Likely Lads, WHTTLikely Lads, Abigail's Party... outlining the climb of the working class to middle class suburbia, car, semi, wife who wants furniture like the magazines. Things changed, and the BBC set it to music and added a laugh track.
    Yes, they have all aged well as a result. Britain's cultural cringe over class is the root of most of our best sitcoms.

    Though Bob's upward social mobility did spring from marrying the bosses daughter!
    Yes, you nail it. The whole idea of people being uncomfortable in their own skin has massive comic potential.

    Rigsby has aspirations of gentility that are laughable ( and his patronising the black aristocrat, Philip, is hilarious).

    Captain Mainwaring is always “Mainwaring” to the top brass, whereas Sergeant Wilson is always “Arthur”.

    Fawlty has a dread of being reduced to the ranks of the working class, and either fawns on his guests, or else is “spitting venom at them like a Benzedrine puff adder.”
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,347
    edited December 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
    1894?
    As is my wont I bought a job lot of remaindered booksrecently. THis included the Haynes Manual on Tower Bridge, purely on spec (it was only a few pounds).

    I was actually fascinated to learn about it, not having previously considered it before. Victorian heavy engineering, very well pimped up as Gothic. So no wonder our colleague got a bit temporally challenged, tbf.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,653

    kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
    Yes I don't personally think it'll come to it (Biden v Trump) but the absolute backstop is that Joe would beat him again imo. For the reasons you say. Focus and exposure.
    £20 at evens says it is Biden v Trump - are you up for that?
    Yes I'll do that, winnings to charity or the site though because you can only get 1.6 on betfair.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,399
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Sad news.

    She was superb as the slightly prissy middle class wife who had basically to be the straight 'man' for most episodes.

    Likely Lads, WHTTLikely Lads, Abigail's Party... outlining the climb of the working class to middle class suburbia, car, semi, wife who wants furniture like the magazines. Things changed, and the BBC set it to music and added a laugh track.
    Yes, they have all aged well as a result. Britain's cultural cringe over class is the root of most of our best sitcoms.

    Though Bob's upward social mobility did spring from marrying the bosses daughter!
    Yes, you nail it. The whole idea of people being uncomfortable in their own skin has massive comic potential.

    Rigsby has aspirations of gentility that are laughable ( and his patronising the black aristocrat, Philip, is hilarious).

    Captain Mainwaring is always “Mainwaring” to the top brass, whereas Sergeant Wilson is always “Arthur”.

    Fawlty has a dread of being reduced to the ranks of the working class, and either fawns on his guests, or else is “spitting venom at them like a Benzedrine puff adder.”
    Steptoe and Son is a tragedy about somebody who just can't escape.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 891
    edited December 2023
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Donald Trump's unique take on DeSantis vs Newsom: “BATTLE OF LOSERVILLE”. I do not think DJT likes RDS.
    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/111503576899732074

    (Language might be nsfw.)

    Newsom beat him to the punch

    “You are trolling folks and trying to play political games so you can out-Trump Trump,” Newsom said. “How is that going for you, Ron? You are down 41 points in your own home state.”
    Re Newsom, he seems to be the Dems 'Haley', ie seen as the most likely nomination if the frontrunner for some reason isn't. So I compared them (him and her) on betfair and it's interesting. They are similar (about 7) for their noms but Haley is a fair bit shorter (at 9 something) for the WH, implying that punters think she's almost nailed on in November if she's the candidate whereas he is definitely not.

    I guess this means educated opinion is that Biden is more beatable by a Not Trump than Trump is by a Not Biden. And maybe that's right due to Trump's bigger 'core', ie of voters who think of him positively and passionately. Hate to stumble my way to a point supporting Trump's chances, so hopefully there's another and better explanation.
    Fairly simple, surely? Trump is a drag on the Republican ticket and still won one of two presidential elections as the electoral college as it stands favours the GOP. Biden is the only person with proof he can overcome that against Trump, but is currently polling level or behind Trump - with the former or a small lead likely resulting in a loss. All other things being equal and were the nomination not an issue, the person with the best chance in a theoretical election is a non-Trump Republican.
    Except if Trump as is likely ran as an Independent in such a scenario that is also Biden's best chance of re election
    Hmmm...I can't see Trump losing the GOP nomination unless there's a conviction or loss in one of his cases. If that happened and the air went out of his balloon somewhat, I wonder if he would run as an indy - knowing it means likely humiliation. He'd certainly threaten to and explore it, but one of the few things Trump can actually do properly is read polls.

    As for Biden, I do think he might beat even a nominated Trump. At the moment Trump is in something of a sweetspot where his base are riled, but normies have kind of forgotten the chaos he brings a bit. Once we get into a full campaign Trump's craziness and dangerousness will be in people's faces again.
    Yes I don't personally think it'll come to it (Biden v Trump) but the absolute backstop is that Joe would beat him again imo. For the reasons you say. Focus and exposure.
    £20 at evens says it is Biden v Trump - are you up for that?
    Yes I'll do that, winnings to charity or the site though because you can only get 1.6 on betfair.
    Ok great many thanks - will screenshot this for reference.

    (Already made a chunk of this tonight on England :smiley: )
  • TimS said:

    I hear it’s chilly in Blighty this evening

    https://x.com/sam6788_/status/1730619577153855915?s=46

    My log fire is turned to 11.

    Burning eucalyptus tonight from a tree that died in our garden three winters ago.

    No doubt Mikey Gove will be around with his clipboard later.
    My mole in Argos says they are doing a roaring trade in electric blankets.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Thelma off to join Bob in the next life.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67590697

    What became of the people they used to be?
    Sad news.

    She was superb as the slightly prissy middle class wife who had basically to be the straight 'man' for most episodes.

    Likely Lads, WHTTLikely Lads, Abigail's Party... outlining the climb of the working class to middle class suburbia, car, semi, wife who wants furniture like the magazines. Things changed, and the BBC set it to music and added a laugh track.
    Yes, they have all aged well as a result. Britain's cultural cringe over class is the root of most of our best sitcoms.

    Though Bob's upward social mobility did spring from marrying the bosses daughter!
    Yes, you nail it. The whole idea of people being uncomfortable in their own skin has massive comic potential.

    Rigsby has aspirations of gentility that are laughable ( and his patronising the black aristocrat, Philip, is hilarious).

    Captain Mainwaring is always “Mainwaring” to the top brass, whereas Sergeant Wilson is always “Arthur”.

    Fawlty has a dread of being reduced to the ranks of the working class, and either fawns on his guests, or else is “spitting venom at them like a Benzedrine puff adder.”
    Steptoe and Son is a tragedy about somebody who just can't escape.
    ‘Arold should have poisoned that old monster.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    I don't keep up with Royal matters. It struck me though that this Omid Scobie chump should be sent to the tower. Does the King still have such powers?

    Not now without Parliament's consent.

    If this were the 16th century of course he would be beheaded tomorrow and his head displayed on a pole on Tower Bridge
    1894?
    As is my wont I bought a job lot of remaindered booksrecently. THis included the Haynes Manual on Tower Bridge, purely on spec (it was only a few pounds).

    I was actually fascinated to learn about it, not having previously considered it before. Victorian heavy engineering, very well pimped up as Gothic. So no wonder our colleague got a bit temporally challenged, tbf.
    'Pimped up' is the correct term. Metal (steel or iron?) frame, with the exterior stonework just being cladding, like some low-rent Coronation Street terrace. In the 1960s there was even a plan to reclad the framework in glass...
This discussion has been closed.