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It’s not the economy, stupid? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Charlie Munger RIP
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    I certainly agree that a happy pair of parents is a great start in life.

    It can be a bit chicken and egg though. Is it poverty that causes family breakdown or family breakdown that causes poverty and other social ills?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Tres said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    Also slavery still exists in America - they just call it prison now.
    I don’t really buy that full thesis.
    Mass incarceration just seems to be price the US wants to pay to manage the 30%.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Charlie Munger RIP

    He would have been 100 on January 1st.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    edited November 2023
    Tres said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    Also slavery still exists in America - they just call it prison now.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    It's the Final of Bake Off tonight. The first all male one (so much for 'woke' ch4). It's tough to call but I incline to Dan. Cheery guy, resilient, knows his oven. Dyor though. Don't go piling on based on my say-so.

    Dan came last. Just did not perform at all. Apologies to the entire community.
    Any VAR involved?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,247
    kyf_100 said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Is Malmesbury right wing?

    Centrist liberal on the political axis would be my best guess.
    I’m in favour of

    1) Old Age Pensions
    2) A middle road on The Irish Question
    3) A moderate form of Imperial Preference
    4) 2 Dreadnoughts for every one the Imperial German navy lays down.
    5) An en-light-ened policy towards managing the immigration situation. Especially around Sidney St.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023

    Tres said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    Also slavery still exists in America - they just call it prison now.
    I don’t really buy that full thesis.
    Mass incarceration just seems to be price the US wants to pay to manage the 30%.
    Have you seen 13th? It's on Netflix.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited November 2023

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    1. Not defending any system that maintains a 30% underclass but how does doing so possibly reduce tax on the rest? It's the other way round surely? A low tax economy causes a 30% underclass.

    2. Those two extremes, the US and Denmark, which of those two do PBers think might be the happier nation?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,907

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    If are rich and a high earner probably best to move to the US, if you are poor probably best to move to Denmark, if you are middle income Australia is likely your best bet for prosperity
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    1. Not defending any system that maintains a 30% underclass but how does doing so possibly reduce tax on the rest? It's the other way round surely? A low tax economy causes a 30% underclass.

    2. Those two extremes, the US and Denmark, which of those two do PBers think might be the happier nation?
    (1) is my clumsy wording. I’m agreeing with you here.

    From a Rawlsian perspective, one would surely choose Denmark, despite its flatness and perhaps dull-ness.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Dutch election update: The Dutch system has a formal process to aid coalition formation. A scout is appointed to go talk to all the parties. One of Wilders' senators from the upper house was chosen for the role... and then almost immediately had to withdraw because of a fraud investigation! Wilders then suggested a retired Labour minister for the next scout.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    edited November 2023
    My traditional £5 Yankee on the winners of the 4 divisions isn't completely doomed as it usually is.

    City (2nd)
    Leicester (1st)
    Bolton (1st)
    Notts County (6th)

    Come on City and it's a tidy winner.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    Also slavery still exists in America - they just call it prison now.
    I don’t really buy that full thesis.
    Mass incarceration just seems to be price the US wants to pay to manage the 30%.
    Have you seen 13th? It's on Netflix.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/

    No, I guess because I’m a bit skeptical.
    But I should probably watch so that I know what I’m being skeptical about.
  • Foxy said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    I certainly agree that a happy pair of parents is a great start in life.

    It can be a bit chicken and egg though. Is it poverty that causes family breakdown or family breakdown that causes poverty and other social ills?
    If I remember correctly, single parents families, particularly among African American community, are significantly higher now than a generation or two ago.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    This is not the reason.
    At least, not in aggregate.

    The American system is set up to maintain a 30% underclass in order to reduce tax on the rest, and especially the richest.

    The opposite is true in a country like Denmark.

    Britain is somewhere in the middle.
    Also slavery still exists in America - they just call it prison now.
    I don’t really buy that full thesis.
    Mass incarceration just seems to be price the US wants to pay to manage the 30%.
    Have you seen 13th? It's on Netflix.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5895028/

    No, I guess because I’m a bit skeptical.
    But I should probably watch so that I know what I’m being skeptical about.
    It is really quite an eye opener.

    Though if you read the history of "Angola", America's largest prison then the continuity between slavery and prisons in America, or Louisiana at least, is clear.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary
  • Dutch election update: The Dutch system has a formal process to aid coalition formation. A scout is appointed to go talk to all the parties. One of Wilders' senators from the upper house was chosen for the role... and then almost immediately had to withdraw because of a fraud investigation! Wilders then suggested a retired Labour minister for the next scout.

    Talking of the Dutch,

    The Dutch version of a new book has been pulled from the shelves after naming the senior royal at the heart of a racism scandal involving the Duke and Duchess of Sussex.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    I certainly agree that a happy pair of parents is a great start in life.

    It can be a bit chicken and egg though. Is it poverty that causes family breakdown or family breakdown that causes poverty and other social ills?
    If I remember correctly, single parents families, particularly among African American community, are significantly higher now than a generation or two ago.
    Pretty much any community!

    I am sure the very high incarceration rate for African American men contributes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    dixiedean said:

    My traditional £5 Yankee on the winners of the 4 divisions isn't completely doomed as it usually is.

    City (2nd)
    Leicester (1st)
    Bolton (1st)
    Notts County (6th)

    Come on City and it's a tidy winner.

    My wobbles have reduced a bit after the weekend. I think Leicester will be promoted as Champions.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    I certainly agree that a happy pair of parents is a great start in life.

    It can be a bit chicken and egg though. Is it poverty that causes family breakdown or family breakdown that causes poverty and other social ills?
    If I remember correctly, single parents families, particularly among African American community, are significantly higher now than a generation or two ago.
    Pretty much any community!

    I am sure the very high incarceration rate for African American men contributes.
    I believe the numbers for African Americas are particularly stand out.

    Just checked its nearly 70% compared to 15% for Asians (by US definition) and 30% for white.

    All have increased, but African Americans its gone from 20% to 70% in past 50 years.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    What a bizarre and revealing analogy.

    The UK was a larger percentage of the EU economy than any US state is of the American economy and was a large net contributor. The idea that our civil rights depended on EU membership is laughable.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Snow.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,135
    This is a pretty depressing article on the prospects for peace in Israel/Palestine:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-would-a-lasting-peace-between-israel-and-palestine-really-look-like
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    If you want to understand why so many poor Americans are doing badly, you should look at the arguments in "The Two-Parent Privilege". Here's a discussion:
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/key-takeaways-from-the-discussion-on-the-two-parent-privilege/

    Sample: "On September 21, 2023, the Center for Economic Security and Opportunity at Brookings hosted an engaging conversation between Melissa Kearney and Jim Tankersley, White House correspondent for The New York Times, centered around Kearney’s new book, “The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.”

    Tankersley and Kearney discussed her book’s central thesis, which describes the profound impact of family structure, particularly marriage, on child well-being. She emphasized that the decline in marriage rates, which is most pronounced among those outside the college-educated class, has disrupted the traditional connection between marriage and child-rearing."

    Or, to put it in PB terms, children do better if their parents follow the example set by, for instance, OldKingCole (and some other frequent commenters.).

    I certainly agree that a happy pair of parents is a great start in life.

    It can be a bit chicken and egg though. Is it poverty that causes family breakdown or family breakdown that causes poverty and other social ills?
    If I remember correctly, single parents families, particularly among African American community, are significantly higher now than a generation or two ago.
    Pretty much any community!

    I am sure the very high incarceration rate for African American men contributes.
    I believe the numbers for African Americas are particularly stand out.

    Just checked its nearly 70% compared to 15% for Asians (by US definition) and 30% for white.

    All have increased, but African Americans its gone from 20% to 70% in past 50 years.
    Are those figures broken down by social class or income?

    It still doesn't resolve the chicken or egg conundrum.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    Possibly, if you’re a Texas Republican.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Dutch election update: The Dutch system has a formal process to aid coalition formation. A scout is appointed to go talk to all the parties. One of Wilders' senators from the upper house was chosen for the role... and then almost immediately had to withdraw because of a fraud investigation! Wilders then suggested a retired Labour minister for the next scout.

    Talking of the Dutch,

    The Dutch version of a new book has been pulled from the shelves after naming the senior royal at the heart of a racism scandal involving the Duke and Duchess of Sussex.
    Why ?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,800

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347

    One little-remarked feature of the new NZ coalition is that they have pledged to scrap proposed hate speech laws on the grounds of freedom of expression.

    This is very welcome, and it’s kind of disturbing how counter-cultural this act now seems, given that freedom of opinion once seemed so central to Anglo-American culture.

    It sounds like a pretty good government.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    HYUFD said:

    MJW said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MikeL said:

    Two new polls today have Biden back ahead of Trump:

    YouGov: Biden 39, Trump 37
    Morning Consult: Biden 43, Trump 42

    YouGov also has Trump 36, Newsom 34

    So who knows what the Dems should do?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Yougov also has Biden beating De Santis 38% to 35% but De Santis beats Newsom 32% to 31%

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
    I find it hard to believe De Santis would beat Newsom in a real national election.
    He would, Newsom is a woke elitist coastal liberal of the type the rustbelt swing states rejected in 2016 when they voted for Trump over Hillary. Biden has at least proved he can connect with rustbelt voters with his 2020 win
    In his personal life, Newsom is the most traditional All American candidate you could imagine. I think he could transcend the woke elitist label.
    'Gavin Newsom's woke policies are hurting children's education. Is it any wonder their parents are leaving?'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/12/california-public-schools-gavin-newsom-woke/
    The state has almost no role in education in California, it's all delegated to counties and cities.
    He also made California the first sanctuary state for trans youth and approved the replacement of a statue of a Spanish missionary with a memorial for native Americans, that is woke whether you agree with it or not
    https://www.them.us/story/california-sanctuary-state-trans-youth-gavin-newsom
    https://apnews.com/article/religion-california-san-francisco-sacramento-gavin-newsom-d6dd0f163797de25cb38ab8419504afb
    But he's not particularly involved in education - and those could be seen as fairly meaningless sops to his base. In fact, California might be a decent example of how American suspicion of higher levels of government creates some of the more notorious extremes of 'woke' (and 'anti-woke', or Bible belt Christian radicalism) politics for that matter.

    In that when federal or state government butts out fairly comprehensively, there's no incentive to compromise and agree standards or policies everyone can live with. Hence you get certain California university towns that do things that look utterly bonkers, and places in Alabama that think Gilead was an instruction manual.

    Also true of its hypercapitalist attitude to everything - you can look at the turn to 'wokeness' in activist circles as a case of following the money. Which in recent years, with social media and the attention economy follows performative, radical, identity-based activism over the mildly boring class-based stuff corporations aren't that keen on as it might hit their bottom line.
    And the latter policy may go down well in California but would be a disaster in the rustbelt swing states more socially conservative than California but more populist and less pro globalist/free trade economically and with stronger manufacturing unions
    Well, quite obviously all other things being equal a California governor or one from most ultra-blue states may start from a weaker position in terms of policy/rhetorical baggage than a proven winner in purple ones - particularly midwestern ones. Who will already have the template and backstory to win.

    But my point is it might be overplayed, as is often down to incentives in the US political system rather than someone's underlying politics. If he's a canny enough politician - and he'd need to be to win the nomination - then he won't be running on those things, but rather the bits of his record that resonate more widely. And targeting a candidate's perceived weak points is far from certain to work.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Charlie Munger RIP

    "I did not intend to get rich. I just wanted to get independent."

    – Charlie Munger

    https://twitter.com/schoolofjuan/status/1729614355858088282
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I was reading the backstory of Plantir the other day about how Thiel and Karp were roommates at Stanford and have radically different politics, even back then. They became very good friends because their differing world views pushed one another intellectually, and now very helpful as even in today's polarised US they can navigate Republican and Democrats.

    Do we think this is very common on US campus today?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,785
    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think there are a fair few pb lefties who are married to foreigners too, though. @kinabalu , for one.
    Whereas off the top of my head I can think of none of my male IRL friends with foreign wives and only one of my wife's IRL friends with a foreign husband.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Sean_F said:

    One little-remarked feature of the new NZ coalition is that they have pledged to scrap proposed hate speech laws on the grounds of freedom of expression.

    This is very welcome, and it’s kind of disturbing how counter-cultural this act now seems, given that freedom of opinion once seemed so central to Anglo-American culture.

    It sounds like a pretty good government.
    They are ditching the smoking policy that will result in OAPs being IDed for ciggies down the line, just as the UK are adopting it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think there are a fair few pb lefties who are married to foreigners too, though. @kinabalu , for one.
    Whereas off the top of my head I can think of none of my male IRL friends with foreign wives and only one of my wife's IRL friends with a foreign husband.
    I think most people aren't that political in general, they are to the right or to left, but not consistency on every issue and don't think about it that deeply day to day. More things are keeping them occupied daily.

    If you are like that I doubt the fact your partner thinks perhaps we need a tax cut vs tax rise will be a relationship breaker.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    ….
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think there are a fair few pb lefties who are married to foreigners too, though. @kinabalu , for one.
    Whereas off the top of my head I can think of none of my male IRL friends with foreign wives and only one of my wife's IRL friends with a foreign husband.
    Might be working in the Leicester NHS, and does slightly turn on what's meant by foreign, but I know many. Indeed many are both foreign husband and foreign wife.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Dutch election update: The Dutch system has a formal process to aid coalition formation. A scout is appointed to go talk to all the parties. One of Wilders' senators from the upper house was chosen for the role... and then almost immediately had to withdraw because of a fraud investigation! Wilders then suggested a retired Labour minister for the next scout.

    Formatter, informative, rapporteur, oh the nostalgia. Jumpers for goalposts...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    You may recall my banging on about how bodycount is a stupid metric. I have just found out about a Wikipedia article about this. Suffice to say it's a dumb metric.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_body_count_controversy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    FDA Investigating Serious Risk of T-cell Malignancy Following BCMA-Directed or CD19-Directed Autologous Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T cell Immunotherapies
    https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/safety-availability-biologics/fda-investigating-serious-risk-t-cell-malignancy-following-bcma-directed-or-cd19-directed-autologous
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has received reports of T-cell malignancies, including chimeric antigen receptor CAR-positive lymphoma, in patients who received treatment with BCMA- or CD19-directed autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. Reports were received from clinical trials and/or postmarketing adverse event (AE) data sources.

    FDA has determined that the risk of T-cell malignancies is applicable to all currently approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. T-cell malignancies have occurred in patients treated with several products in the class. Currently approved products in this class (listed alphabetically by trade name) include the following:

    Abecma (idecabtagene vicleucel)
    Breyanzi (lisocabtagene maraleucel)
    Carvykti (ciltacabtagene autoleucel)
    Kymriah (tisagenlecleucel)
    Tecartus (brexucabtagene autoleucel)
    Yescarta (axicabtagene ciloleucel)
    Although the overall benefits of these products continue to outweigh their potential risks for their approved uses, FDA is investigating the identified risk of T cell malignancy with serious outcomes, including hospitalization and death, and is evaluating the need for regulatory action.

    As with all gene therapy products with integrating vectors (lentiviral or retroviral vectors), the potential risk of developing secondary malignancies is labeled as a class warning in the U.S. prescribing information (USPIs) for approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous T cell immunotherapies. The initial approvals of these products included postmarketing requirements (PMRs) under Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) to conduct 15-year long term follow-up observational safety studies to assess the long-term safety and the risk of secondary malignancies occurring after treatment.

    Patients and clinical trial participants receiving treatment with these products should be monitored life-long for new malignancies. In the event that a new malignancy occurs following treatment with these products, contact the manufacturer to report the event and obtain instructions on collection of patient samples for testing for the presence of the Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) transgene..
  • viewcode said:

    You may recall my banging on about how bodycount is a stupid metric. I have just found out about a Wikipedia article about this. Suffice to say it's a dumb metric.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_body_count_controversy

    I thought you were talking about body count in terms of the relationship debate....
  • It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a pretty depressing article on the prospects for peace in Israel/Palestine:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-would-a-lasting-peace-between-israel-and-palestine-really-look-like

    Interesting thank you, but a bit incoherent. It, not you. ☹️
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    viewcode said:

    You may recall my banging on about how bodycount is a stupid metric. I have just found out about a Wikipedia article about this. Suffice to say it's a dumb metric.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_body_count_controversy

    I thought you were talking about body count in terms of the relationship debate....
    @NickPalmer : 3
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    ..

    The Israeli Minister of National Security and Leader of the “Otzma Yehudit” Party, Itamar Ben-Gvir has stated that he and at least 6 Members of the Knesset will Leave the Coalition Government if any kind of Permanent Ceasefire is Agreed upon with Hamas; further stating that Hamas must be Totally Eliminated if the “Black Sabbath Disaster” is to not happen again.

    Is that what we're calling it? Sounds like its describing a dodgy sophomore album from Ozzy Osborne and the gang.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    (snip)



    Can you advise us in lay terms what this refers to? Covid vaccines, for instance?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    FDA Investigating Serious Risk of T-cell Malignancy Following BCMA-Directed or CD19-Directed Autologous Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T cell Immunotherapies
    https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/safety-availability-biologics/fda-investigating-serious-risk-t-cell-malignancy-following-bcma-directed-or-cd19-directed-autologous
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has received reports of T-cell malignancies, including chimeric antigen receptor CAR-positive lymphoma, in patients who received treatment with BCMA- or CD19-directed autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. Reports were received from clinical trials and/or postmarketing adverse event (AE) data sources.

    FDA has determined that the risk of T-cell malignancies is applicable to all currently approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. T-cell malignancies have occurred in patients treated with several products in the class. Currently approved products in this class (listed alphabetically by trade name) include the following:

    Abecma (idecabtagene vicleucel)
    Breyanzi (lisocabtagene maraleucel)
    Carvykti (ciltacabtagene autoleucel)
    Kymriah (tisagenlecleucel)
    Tecartus (brexucabtagene autoleucel)
    Yescarta (axicabtagene ciloleucel)
    Although the overall benefits of these products continue to outweigh their potential risks for their approved uses, FDA is investigating the identified risk of T cell malignancy with serious outcomes, including hospitalization and death, and is evaluating the need for regulatory action.

    As with all gene therapy products with integrating vectors (lentiviral or retroviral vectors), the potential risk of developing secondary malignancies is labeled as a class warning in the U.S. prescribing information (USPIs) for approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous T cell immunotherapies. The initial approvals of these products included postmarketing requirements (PMRs) under Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) to conduct 15-year long term follow-up observational safety studies to assess the long-term safety and the risk of secondary malignancies occurring after treatment.

    Patients and clinical trial participants receiving treatment with these products should be monitored life-long for new malignancies. In the event that a new malignancy occurs following treatment with these products, contact the manufacturer to report the event and obtain instructions on collection of patient samples for testing for the presence of the Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) transgene..

    TLDR: CAR T-cell immunotherapy might give you cancer. Well, that's nice.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,135
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    FDA Investigating Serious Risk of T-cell Malignancy Following BCMA-Directed or CD19-Directed Autologous Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T cell Immunotherapies
    Thj
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has received reports of T-cell malignancies, including chimeric antigen receptor CAR-positive lymphoma, in patients who received treatment with BCMA- or CD19-directed autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. Reports were received from clinical trials and/or postmarketing adverse event (AE) data sources.

    FDA has determined that the risk of T-cell malignancies is applicable to all currently approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. T-cell malignancies have occurred in patients treated with several products in the class. Currently approved products in this class (listed alphabetically by trade name) include the following:

    Abecma (idecabtagene vicleucel)
    Breyanzi (lisocabtagene maraleucel)
    Carvykti (ciltacabtagene autoleucel)
    Kymriah (tisagenlecleucel)
    Tecartus (brexucabtagene autoleucel)
    Yescarta (axicabtagene ciloleucel)
    Although the overall benefits of these products continue to outweigh their potential risks for their approved uses, FDA is investigating the identified risk of T cell malignancy with serious outcomes, including hospitalization and death, and is evaluating the need for regulatory action.

    As with all gene therapy products with integrating vectors (lentiviral or retroviral vectors), the potential risk of developing secondary malignancies is labeled as a class warning in the U.S. prescribing information (USPIs) for approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous T cell immunotherapies. The initial approvals of these products included postmarketing requirements (PMRs) under Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) to conduct 15-year long term follow-up observational safety studies to assess the long-term safety and the risk of secondary malignancies occurring after treatment.

    Patients and clinical trial participants receiving treatment with these products should be monitored life-long for new malignancies. In the event that a new malignancy occurs following treatment with these products, contact the manufacturer to report the event and obtain instructions on collection of patient samples for testing for the presence of the Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) transgene..

    TLDR: CAR T-cell immunotherapy might give you cancer. Well, that's nice.
    These are the immunotherapies that use the body's immune system to fight various cancers, right?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    (snip)



    Can you advise us in lay terms what this refers to? Covid vaccines, for instance?
    Immunotherapy is a way of treating things by manipulating the immune system in a specific way. They now think it will give you cancer. I don't think it's anything to do with vaccines. But I am stupid and may be wrong.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,135
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think there are a fair few pb lefties who are married to foreigners too, though. @kinabalu , for one.
    Whereas off the top of my head I can think of none of my male IRL friends with foreign wives and only one of my wife's IRL friends with a foreign husband.
    People with foreign spouses find solace online*?

    * And that would include me, I guess
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    FDA Investigating Serious Risk of T-cell Malignancy Following BCMA-Directed or CD19-Directed Autologous Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T cell Immunotherapies
    Thj
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has received reports of T-cell malignancies, including chimeric antigen receptor CAR-positive lymphoma, in patients who received treatment with BCMA- or CD19-directed autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. Reports were received from clinical trials and/or postmarketing adverse event (AE) data sources.

    FDA has determined that the risk of T-cell malignancies is applicable to all currently approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. T-cell malignancies have occurred in patients treated with several products in the class. Currently approved products in this class (listed alphabetically by trade name) include the following:

    Abecma (idecabtagene vicleucel)
    Breyanzi (lisocabtagene maraleucel)
    Carvykti (ciltacabtagene autoleucel)
    Kymriah (tisagenlecleucel)
    Tecartus (brexucabtagene autoleucel)
    Yescarta (axicabtagene ciloleucel)
    Although the overall benefits of these products continue to outweigh their potential risks for their approved uses, FDA is investigating the identified risk of T cell malignancy with serious outcomes, including hospitalization and death, and is evaluating the need for regulatory action.

    As with all gene therapy products with integrating vectors (lentiviral or retroviral vectors), the potential risk of developing secondary malignancies is labeled as a class warning in the U.S. prescribing information (USPIs) for approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous T cell immunotherapies. The initial approvals of these products included postmarketing requirements (PMRs) under Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) to conduct 15-year long term follow-up observational safety studies to assess the long-term safety and the risk of secondary malignancies occurring after treatment.

    Patients and clinical trial participants receiving treatment with these products should be monitored life-long for new malignancies. In the event that a new malignancy occurs following treatment with these products, contact the manufacturer to report the event and obtain instructions on collection of patient samples for testing for the presence of the Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) transgene..

    TLDR: CAR T-cell immunotherapy might give you cancer. Well, that's nice.
    These are the immunotherapies that use the body's immune system to fight various cancers, right?
    I think so. It seems you swap a higher probability of having cancer A now for a lower probability of having cancer B later. It's an improvement, but I imagine it will no longer be as attractive as a treatment...☹️
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think that Brits who don't give much of a fuck about politics aren't "right wing" or "left wing" in any meaningful sense. A serious British right-winger would probably find a left-wing partner pretty irritating, and vice versa.

    I wonder if professional politicians tend to feel that less, though. I've always had plenty of friends who sometimes or always vote Tory (and a close friend who once voted BNP) - if you're in politics, you have to rub along with other views all the time, if only among your constituents, and you don't want to keep having rows with them. The real zealots of the "never kissed" kind tend not to want to dirty themselves with the compromises of elected politics.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    FDA Investigating Serious Risk of T-cell Malignancy Following BCMA-Directed or CD19-Directed Autologous Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T cell Immunotherapies
    Thj
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has received reports of T-cell malignancies, including chimeric antigen receptor CAR-positive lymphoma, in patients who received treatment with BCMA- or CD19-directed autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. Reports were received from clinical trials and/or postmarketing adverse event (AE) data sources.

    FDA has determined that the risk of T-cell malignancies is applicable to all currently approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. T-cell malignancies have occurred in patients treated with several products in the class. Currently approved products in this class (listed alphabetically by trade name) include the following:

    Abecma (idecabtagene vicleucel)
    Breyanzi (lisocabtagene maraleucel)
    Carvykti (ciltacabtagene autoleucel)
    Kymriah (tisagenlecleucel)
    Tecartus (brexucabtagene autoleucel)
    Yescarta (axicabtagene ciloleucel)
    Although the overall benefits of these products continue to outweigh their potential risks for their approved uses, FDA is investigating the identified risk of T cell malignancy with serious outcomes, including hospitalization and death, and is evaluating the need for regulatory action.

    As with all gene therapy products with integrating vectors (lentiviral or retroviral vectors), the potential risk of developing secondary malignancies is labeled as a class warning in the U.S. prescribing information (USPIs) for approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous T cell immunotherapies. The initial approvals of these products included postmarketing requirements (PMRs) under Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) to conduct 15-year long term follow-up observational safety studies to assess the long-term safety and the risk of secondary malignancies occurring after treatment.

    Patients and clinical trial participants receiving treatment with these products should be monitored life-long for new malignancies. In the event that a new malignancy occurs following treatment with these products, contact the manufacturer to report the event and obtain instructions on collection of patient samples for testing for the presence of the Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) transgene..

    TLDR: CAR T-cell immunotherapy might give you cancer. Well, that's nice.
    ...
    ...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    edited November 2023

    It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
  • Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think that Brits who don't give much of a fuck about politics aren't "right wing" or "left wing" in any meaningful sense. A serious British right-winger would probably find a left-wing partner pretty irritating, and vice versa.

    I wonder if professional politicians tend to feel that less, though. I've always had plenty of friends who sometimes or always vote Tory (and a close friend who once voted BNP) - if you're in politics, you have to rub along with other views all the time, if only among your constituents, and you don't want to keep having rows with them. The real zealots of the "never kissed" kind tend not to want to dirty themselves with the compromises of elected politics.
    Yes, and the few that do present that as a strength. And whilst there are downsides to playing the political game and compromising too much, I think the people who wouldn't even be friends with someone of an alternative political view are treating it much more like a game, one in which you are not allowed to stop playing even to have a drink or friendly discussion with a fellow human being who disagrees with you.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    kjh said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    I desperately want to post but I don't know what to say. You have to be here. Trying to think of a US comparison in terms of division. How about the 2nd amendment.

    For some exporters it has been disastrous, particularly lowish value items to the EU or stuff requiring specific types of paperwork.

    Loss of freedom of movement is very annoying and impacts people I know badly, although for me it has been inconvenient but not hugely.
    It was our Dreyfus Affair.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    edited November 2023
    Honestly, the sheer gall of these people like the CPRE given their NIMBYness.

    BREAKING: England's #HousingCrisis poses a real threat to the survival of rural communities. Our research finds that in rural England alone:

    👉 homelessness is up 40% since 2018
    👉 300,000 people are waiting for social housing

    Read our new report 👇

    https://nitter.net/CPRE/status/1729408032595906643#m

    My apologies, of course they support 'building the right homes in the rightplaces'. Like hell.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    dixiedean said:

    My traditional £5 Yankee on the winners of the 4 divisions isn't completely doomed as it usually is.

    City (2nd)
    Leicester (1st)
    Bolton (1st)
    Notts County (6th)

    Come on City and it's a tidy winner.

    Wrong County 😜
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    Losing the right to vote in EU elections, yes. Not I wanted to vote in EU elections.

    The rest is purely theoretical.
  • MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    The "never kissed a Tory" t-shirt was a joke I imagine but it seems to have riled up right-wingers something chronic (unsurprisingly, these are people whose chief goal in life is finding something to get angry about). When I was a young man me and my mates were always hoping to enjoy friendly relations with some posh Tory totty "for the revolution" but sadly it never happened.
    Does any heterosexual man find themselves in a relationship with someone who agrees with them? I doubt it.
  • It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
    And avoided* two world wars.

    * In the sense of destruction, deaths and vast financial costs. It was of course occupied in WW2.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    The "never kissed a Tory" t-shirt was a joke I imagine but it seems to have riled up right-wingers something chronic (unsurprisingly, these are people whose chief goal in life is finding something to get angry about). When I was a young man me and my mates were always hoping to enjoy friendly relations with some posh Tory totty "for the revolution" but sadly it never happened.
    Does any heterosexual man find themselves in a relationship with someone who agrees with them? I doubt it.
    “ Does any heterosexual man find themselves in a relationship with someone who agrees with them? I doubt it.”

    Ha! The wisdom of PB.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    Losing the right to vote in EU elections, yes. Not I wanted to vote in EU elections.

    The rest is purely theoretical.
    Sure, but they are freedoms you have lost whether you wanted to exercise them or not. And plenty of people did want to exercise them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited November 2023

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    (snip)

    Can you advise us in lay terms what this refers to? Covid vaccines, for instance?
    Absolutely not.
    This is about therapies which use a modified virus as a delivery vector to get a payload into human cells in order to genetically modify those cells.

    Retroviruses have long been used in biotech*, because modifying genes is difficult to do at scale, and they’re very effective at getting into cells to do so.
    The potential danger of using them directly in humans has always been recognised, since the retroviruses used aren’t at all precise in where they insert the genetic modification, and unpredictable effects are always a possibility.

    Immunotherapies have been remarkably effective in treating cancers which otherwise had no effective treatment. In this case, it’s analogous to chemotherapies, or radiation treatment, where there are serious risks alongside the benefits - but these reports are going make the risk/benefit calculation look significantly worse.

    (*The use of retroviruses for modification to cells to use in cell cultures for biotech manufacturing - something that’s been around much longer - doesn’t carry the same risk, since it’s only a means to producing an end product.)
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    Losing the right to vote in EU elections, yes. Not I wanted to vote in EU elections.

    The rest is purely theoretical.
    only if you have absolutely zero imagination.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    Losing the right to vote in EU elections, yes. Not I wanted to vote in EU elections.

    The rest is purely theoretical.
    Silly response. Many rights are theoretical - until you need to use them.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    Losing the right to vote in EU elections, yes. Not I wanted to vote in EU elections.

    The rest is purely theoretical.
    Silly response. Many rights are theoretical - until you need to use them.
    Parachutes being the obvious example.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    @MarqueeMark went even further than marrying a foreigner. He married a Scot....
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think that Brits who don't give much of a fuck about politics aren't "right wing" or "left wing" in any meaningful sense. A serious British right-winger would probably find a left-wing partner pretty irritating, and vice versa.

    I wonder if professional politicians tend to feel that less, though. I've always had plenty of friends who sometimes or always vote Tory (and a close friend who once voted BNP) - if you're in politics, you have to rub along with other views all the time, if only among your constituents, and you don't want to keep having rows with them. The real zealots of the "never kissed" kind tend not to want to dirty themselves with the compromises of elected politics.
    Personally, I think there's a bit of a mirror image - it just manifests itself in different ways - and maybe the left-wing version of social exclusion on political grounds is more socially acceptable now than its right-wing equivalent. There's always been a certain type of right-wing person who looks down on and is demonstrably rude to anyone not of similar mind or in some cases background. Think the stereotypical Young Conservative, golf club bores, or certain right-wing Tory MPs over the years (and now) who drip contempt for those with different politics. But of course those have been viewed as culturally out of touch and unfashionable for a long time now, whereas the 'Never Kissed a Tory' stuff doesn't really land you in hot water, so those on the left are more direct and open about politics as a dealbreaker.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
    Not deliberately provocative at all, nor meant as any especial slight to Thatcher, who implemented many vital and necessary reforms.

    I mean, our current economic malaise, reliance on consumer debt and the gradual selling out of the economy to foreign interests, and our hollowed-out state with its ideological aversion to state-enabled economic development.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited November 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is pretty serious news for immunotherapies utilising viral vectors.
    It’s always been a theoretical risk, but not at all theoretical now.

    FDA Investigating Serious Risk of T-cell Malignancy Following BCMA-Directed or CD19-Directed Autologous Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T cell Immunotherapies
    Thj
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has received reports of T-cell malignancies, including chimeric antigen receptor CAR-positive lymphoma, in patients who received treatment with BCMA- or CD19-directed autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. Reports were received from clinical trials and/or postmarketing adverse event (AE) data sources.

    FDA has determined that the risk of T-cell malignancies is applicable to all currently approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous CAR T cell immunotherapies. T-cell malignancies have occurred in patients treated with several products in the class. Currently approved products in this class (listed alphabetically by trade name) include the following:

    Abecma (idecabtagene vicleucel)
    Breyanzi (lisocabtagene maraleucel)
    Carvykti (ciltacabtagene autoleucel)
    Kymriah (tisagenlecleucel)
    Tecartus (brexucabtagene autoleucel)
    Yescarta (axicabtagene ciloleucel)
    Although the overall benefits of these products continue to outweigh their potential risks for their approved uses, FDA is investigating the identified risk of T cell malignancy with serious outcomes, including hospitalization and death, and is evaluating the need for regulatory action.

    As with all gene therapy products with integrating vectors (lentiviral or retroviral vectors), the potential risk of developing secondary malignancies is labeled as a class warning in the U.S. prescribing information (USPIs) for approved BCMA-directed and CD19-directed genetically modified autologous T cell immunotherapies. The initial approvals of these products included postmarketing requirements (PMRs) under Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) to conduct 15-year long term follow-up observational safety studies to assess the long-term safety and the risk of secondary malignancies occurring after treatment.

    Patients and clinical trial participants receiving treatment with these products should be monitored life-long for new malignancies. In the event that a new malignancy occurs following treatment with these products, contact the manufacturer to report the event and obtain instructions on collection of patient samples for testing for the presence of the Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) transgene..

    TLDR: CAR T-cell immunotherapy might give you cancer. Well, that's nice.
    These are the immunotherapies that use the body's immune system to fight various cancers, right?
    Sort of.
    They separate out T-cells from the blood (either from the patient, or donors in different cases); stimulate them using various techniques to multiply in large numbers; genetically modify them using the viral vectors to express a “chimeric antigen receptor” (the CAR bit) which will both recognise a particular protein (antigen) on the tumour cell, and activate the T-cell to destroy the cancer cell expressing the antigen; and finally reinfuse the modified T-cells into the patient’s blood.

    Obviously, if there’s now a more reliable means to modify the cells, it’s quite likely to be adopted. But developing this stuff is not a rapid or cheap process.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618


    It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
    Not deliberately provocative at all, nor meant as any especial slight to Thatcher, who implemented many vital and necessary reforms.

    I mean, our current economic malaise, reliance on consumer debt and the gradual selling out of the economy to foreign interests, and our hollowed-out state with its ideological aversion to state-enabled economic development.
    I think 1997 was much more of a watershed than 1979. Our current settlement is fundamentally Blairite.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298


    It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
    Not deliberately provocative at all, nor meant as any especial slight to Thatcher, who implemented many vital and necessary reforms.

    I mean, our current economic malaise, reliance on consumer debt and the gradual selling out of the economy to foreign interests, and our hollowed-out state with its ideological aversion to state-enabled economic development.
    I think 1997 was much more of a watershed than 1979. Our current settlement is fundamentally Blairite.
    Blair added immigration to the mix.
    Otherwise, it’s the same gravy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    The other thing to bear in mind is that biology is always a numbers game.
    We have mutations arising in our bodies’ cells, sometimes harmful ones, all through our lives. A significant component of our immune system is continually dedicated to identifying those cells and telling them to self destruct.

    Most of the time this just goes on in the background, with no discernible consequences. It’s only when mutations happen which make cells multiply uncontrollably, and their numbers overwhelm the immune system cells killing them, that cancers happen.
    Immunotherapies attempt to shift the numbers balance in the opposite direction by overwhelming the cancer cells with a massive number of T-cells.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413
    edited November 2023


    It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
    Not deliberately provocative at all, nor meant as any especial slight to Thatcher, who implemented many vital and necessary reforms.

    I mean, our current economic malaise, reliance on consumer debt and the gradual selling out of the economy to foreign interests, and our hollowed-out state with its ideological aversion to state-enabled economic development.
    I think 1997 was much more of a watershed than 1979. Our current settlement is fundamentally Blairite.
    Blair added immigration to the mix.
    Otherwise, it’s the same gravy.
    Many will argue that selling off the family silver really began in earnest under Blair.

    *Which is not to say the Tories have been any better since - they haven't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Talking of Blair, how was this business ever worth well over a billion ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/28/euan-blair-apprenticeship-firm-multiverse-reports-near-tripling-of-losses
    Euan Blair’s apprenticeship company Multiverse has reported a near-tripling of pre-tax annual losses to £40.5m – its seventh straight year of losses since the son of the former prime minister Tony Blair set it up in 2016.

    Despite failing to turn a profit, the company was awarded the coveted tech “unicorn” status when it was valued at £1.4bn in a fundraising round driven by US venture capital firms in June last year. That put Blair’s stake in the company at £420m, far more than his father Tony’s reported £60m fortune...

    .. The accounts for Multiverse, which uses automated predictive software to match apprentices with companies based on their aptitude and attitude rather than grades, show its revenue grew by 66% to £45.2m in the year to the end of March 2023.

    However, losses widened from £14.2m in 2022 to £40.5m in the same financial year. A company spokesperson chose to send the accounts to selected media outlets on Tuesday ahead of their official publication by Companies House…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Would Starmer refuse to meet with Trump if they're both elected next year?
  • Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    I desperately want to post but I don't know what to say. You have to be here. Trying to think of a US comparison in terms of division. How about the 2nd amendment.

    For some exporters it has been disastrous, particularly lowish value items to the EU or stuff requiring specific types of paperwork.

    Loss of freedom of movement is very annoying and impacts people I know badly, although for me it has been inconvenient but not hugely.
    It was our Dreyfus Affair.
    I disagree. I think Brexit is a wedge issue that various people are happy to keep pushing because they think their side will win, and 'winning' the argument is more important to them than social cohesion.

    I fear that our Dreyfus Affair will come when our fear of the other - and I mean an evolving fear of radical Islam evolves into fear of the general Muslim population distributed in the UK - gets whipped up by a populist politician we haven't seen yet. Our British sense of fair play and decency is skin deep, and certainly thinner these days than in previous generations when education encouraged a common moral compass.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Andy_JS said:

    Would Starmer refuse to meet with Trump if they're both elected next year?

    No. Would Trump agree to meet Starmer? Only if there was something in it for Trump.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Nigelb said:

    Talking of Blair, how was this business ever worth well over a billion ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/28/euan-blair-apprenticeship-firm-multiverse-reports-near-tripling-of-losses
    Euan Blair’s apprenticeship company Multiverse has reported a near-tripling of pre-tax annual losses to £40.5m – its seventh straight year of losses since the son of the former prime minister Tony Blair set it up in 2016.

    Despite failing to turn a profit, the company was awarded the coveted tech “unicorn” status when it was valued at £1.4bn in a fundraising round driven by US venture capital firms in June last year. That put Blair’s stake in the company at £420m, far more than his father Tony’s reported £60m fortune...

    .. The accounts for Multiverse, which uses automated predictive software to match apprentices with companies based on their aptitude and attitude rather than grades, show its revenue grew by 66% to £45.2m in the year to the end of March 2023.

    However, losses widened from £14.2m in 2022 to £40.5m in the same financial year. A company spokesperson chose to send the accounts to selected media outlets on Tuesday ahead of their official publication by Companies House…

    So he's built a Tinder for apprentices and he's spending £90 million pa to run it. Prat.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    Charlie Munger RIP

    He would have been 100 on January 1st.
    Although he was famously suspicious of any company forecast with round numbers…
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,135
    Andy_JS said:

    Would Starmer refuse to meet with Trump if they're both elected next year?

    I think he'd be guided by the polling :smile:
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    We didn’t get to vote for President of Europe and we were a net contributor to the budget.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    "New Golden Horseshoe map no solace for troubled Liberals
    What impact the new electoral map in the GTA, Hamilton and Niagara regions will have on the next election
    Éric Grenier"

    https://www.thewrit.ca/p/new-golden-horseshoe-map-no-solace
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    edited November 2023


    It’s incredibly ignorant to claim that Brexit has increased democracy.

    Brexit has enabled and empowered an ideology of “executive power” which has seen, inter alia, prorogation of parliament, a debauch of Lords appointments, public pronouncements against the rule of law, the imposition of FPTP in local elections, etc etc.

    I always said that the only way to properly cement Brexit is to turn it into a platform of democratic renewal, but so far as I can tell not a single Brexiter (with the exception maybe of Richard Tyndall) was actually interested in that.

    As for the economics, Britain has seen effectively zero productivity growth since 2010. Brexit has clearly pushed the country off its high FDI path, and damaged export performance. The decline in the pound has helped to drive inflation, as has the disruption of the labour market.

    I don’t believe Brexit is the core issue behind Britain’s malaise, which has its seeds all the way back in the 80s, but it has effectively delivered seven wasted years in which the country has grown relatively poorer and, I would argue, simply unhappier.

    I would hope you would not be surprised to find I agreed with you in large part. I always viewed Brexit as the first necessary step in a process of radical reform of our political system and structures. The administrations since Brexit have shown no interest in that but I would still hope that future administrations would be willing to take things further.

    I am content with the fact we have left the EU but impatient to see large scale further changes to our politics.
    I think @Gardenwalker is being deliberately provocative to suggest that 'Britain's malaise' has 'seeds back in the 80s', unless he's referring to the 1880s. We've been declining relative to the rest of the world since 1850, then you have the massive liquidation and spaffing of resources involved in fighting two world wars, then you have the poison of state socialism during the post-war consensus era, which left Britain stagnating as 'the sick man of Europe'. Thatcher's reforms in response were painful - some perhaps even misguided, but describing them as the 'seed' of anything just isn't a credible standpoint.

    A darling of PBs centre-lefties seems to be Denmark - a country that neatly avoided a post-war socialist period and reaped significant benefits.
    Not deliberately provocative at all, nor meant as any especial slight to Thatcher, who implemented many vital and necessary reforms.

    I mean, our current economic malaise, reliance on consumer debt and the gradual selling out of the economy to foreign interests, and our hollowed-out state with its ideological aversion to state-enabled economic development.
    I think 1997 was much more of a watershed than 1979. Our current settlement is fundamentally Blairite.
    Blair added immigration to the mix.
    Otherwise, it’s the same gravy.
    Far more than that. The explosion in extra-parliamentary governance dates from him. Everything from devolution to outsourcing to the third sector.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    Open support for Hamas in California:

    https://x.com/yashar/status/1729630529199432095
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    @MarqueeMark went even further than marrying a foreigner. He married a Scot....
    I don't know if I'm a 'right-winger', but I married a lovely Turkish lady.

    In fact, of my best six English / Scottish friends, they all married non-Brits. Then again, almost all of them are techies...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    MJW said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Maybe, I actually think right wingers are much more open to meeting and being with people who aren't from the same backgrounds as them or don't agree with them. There's no "never kissed a Lefty" t-shirts for sale, for example, but loads of lefties make it a point of pride that they haven't. I don't know any right winger that gives enough of a fuck about politics to make it a deal breaker. I don't think that's true everywhere though, the US is much more polarised and right wingers there are quite insular and don't date lefties or foreigners.
    I think that Brits who don't give much of a fuck about politics aren't "right wing" or "left wing" in any meaningful sense. A serious British right-winger would probably find a left-wing partner pretty irritating, and vice versa.

    I wonder if professional politicians tend to feel that less, though. I've always had plenty of friends who sometimes or always vote Tory (and a close friend who once voted BNP) - if you're in politics, you have to rub along with other views all the time, if only among your constituents, and you don't want to keep having rows with them. The real zealots of the "never kissed" kind tend not to want to dirty themselves with the compromises of elected politics.
    Personally, I think there's a bit of a mirror image - it just manifests itself in different ways - and maybe the left-wing version of social exclusion on political grounds is more socially acceptable now than its right-wing equivalent. There's always been a certain type of right-wing person who looks down on and is demonstrably rude to anyone not of similar mind or in some cases background. Think the stereotypical Young Conservative, golf club bores, or certain right-wing Tory MPs over the years (and now) who drip contempt for those with different politics. But of course those have been viewed as culturally out of touch and unfashionable for a long time now, whereas the 'Never Kissed a Tory' stuff doesn't really land you in hot water, so those on the left are more direct and open about politics as a dealbreaker.
    The stereotype is that the left think the right is evil, and the right think the left is stupid.

    Obviously in practice you get people on each who believe both.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Talking of Blair, how was this business ever worth well over a billion ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/28/euan-blair-apprenticeship-firm-multiverse-reports-near-tripling-of-losses
    Euan Blair’s apprenticeship company Multiverse has reported a near-tripling of pre-tax annual losses to £40.5m – its seventh straight year of losses since the son of the former prime minister Tony Blair set it up in 2016.

    Despite failing to turn a profit, the company was awarded the coveted tech “unicorn” status when it was valued at £1.4bn in a fundraising round driven by US venture capital firms in June last year. That put Blair’s stake in the company at £420m, far more than his father Tony’s reported £60m fortune...

    .. The accounts for Multiverse, which uses automated predictive software to match apprentices with companies based on their aptitude and attitude rather than grades, show its revenue grew by 66% to £45.2m in the year to the end of March 2023.

    However, losses widened from £14.2m in 2022 to £40.5m in the same financial year. A company spokesperson chose to send the accounts to selected media outlets on Tuesday ahead of their official publication by Companies House…

    So he's built a Tinder for apprentices and he's spending £90 million pa to run it. Prat.
    I know when gambles in tech pay off they can pay off in a very big way, but there's so many where even on its face it's hard to see why a tech solution is necessary.

    Of course, played right and the founder's can become super rich even if they never have a working business, so no wonder people keep trying.
  • Pulpstar said:

    That's quite an amazing statistic when you consider the relative populations of Nigeria compared to India. I'd expect a chart like that for the UK in 2150 maybe but not now !
    This is all to do with the Government trying to make desperate attempts to cut NHS waiting lists.

    They need healthcare staff from Nigeria and India (and allowing them to bring dependents is part of the attraction) and calculate the fall-out for higher immigration stats will be far less than an NHS that doesn't work.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Talking of Blair, how was this business ever worth well over a billion ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/28/euan-blair-apprenticeship-firm-multiverse-reports-near-tripling-of-losses
    Euan Blair’s apprenticeship company Multiverse has reported a near-tripling of pre-tax annual losses to £40.5m – its seventh straight year of losses since the son of the former prime minister Tony Blair set it up in 2016.

    Despite failing to turn a profit, the company was awarded the coveted tech “unicorn” status when it was valued at £1.4bn in a fundraising round driven by US venture capital firms in June last year. That put Blair’s stake in the company at £420m, far more than his father Tony’s reported £60m fortune...

    .. The accounts for Multiverse, which uses automated predictive software to match apprentices with companies based on their aptitude and attitude rather than grades, show its revenue grew by 66% to £45.2m in the year to the end of March 2023.

    However, losses widened from £14.2m in 2022 to £40.5m in the same financial year. A company spokesperson chose to send the accounts to selected media outlets on Tuesday ahead of their official publication by Companies House…

    So he's built a Tinder for apprentices and he's spending £90 million pa to run it. Prat.
    He sold enough shares in 2021 to buy a £20m London property, so his investors are probably the prats ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Talking of Blair, how was this business ever worth well over a billion ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/28/euan-blair-apprenticeship-firm-multiverse-reports-near-tripling-of-losses
    Euan Blair’s apprenticeship company Multiverse has reported a near-tripling of pre-tax annual losses to £40.5m – its seventh straight year of losses since the son of the former prime minister Tony Blair set it up in 2016.

    Despite failing to turn a profit, the company was awarded the coveted tech “unicorn” status when it was valued at £1.4bn in a fundraising round driven by US venture capital firms in June last year. That put Blair’s stake in the company at £420m, far more than his father Tony’s reported £60m fortune...

    .. The accounts for Multiverse, which uses automated predictive software to match apprentices with companies based on their aptitude and attitude rather than grades, show its revenue grew by 66% to £45.2m in the year to the end of March 2023.

    However, losses widened from £14.2m in 2022 to £40.5m in the same financial year. A company spokesperson chose to send the accounts to selected media outlets on Tuesday ahead of their official publication by Companies House…

    So he's built a Tinder for apprentices and he's spending £90 million pa to run it. Prat.
    He sold enough shares in 2021 to buy a £20m London property, so his investors are probably the prats ?
    Investors in ludicrous tech gambles are dupes. They probably just liked the name. Those raking in the cash are prats.

    Like the difference between a ponzi schemer and a ponzi investor, though often more willfully duped.
  • Sean_F said:

    One little-remarked feature of the new NZ coalition is that they have pledged to scrap proposed hate speech laws on the grounds of freedom of expression.

    This is very welcome, and it’s kind of disturbing how counter-cultural this act now seems, given that freedom of opinion once seemed so central to Anglo-American culture.

    It sounds like a pretty good government.
    It's a remarkable feature of the Conservative Party in this country that they'd never do this.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    Losing the right to vote in EU elections, yes. Not I wanted to vote in EU elections.

    The rest is purely theoretical.
    Silly response. Many rights are theoretical - until you need to use them.
    I can now stay in the EU up to 90 days (which renews every 180 days) as opposed to an unlimited amount.

    I have never stayed longer than 45 days overseas anywhere in the world in my whole life.

    So, in practice, it has zero impact on me.
  • Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Viewed from eight time zones away, the obsession with Brexit on this site seems mistaken.

    From what I can tell from this far away, Brexit has resulted in a modest increase in democracy In Britain, so UK elections now matter a little more, and bureacracies in Brussels a little less. If there have been signficant economic losses from Brexit, it is not apparent at this distance.

    Were I a UK citizen, I would be looking at other, greater problems.

    (The European Union has been disastrous for the economy of Greece. That should bother more of you.)

    It was a massive loss of freedom and rights for no gain in democracy. And came at an economic cost.

    Imagine if your State seceded from the Union.

    You would no longer pay Federal taxes, but you would get no Federal grants.

    You couldn't vote for a President, but the Bill of Rights would no longer apply.

    Would you feel "a modest increase in democracy" ?
    I lost no rights and freedoms.
    You lost the right to live and work and start a business anywhere in the EU. You lost your freedom of movement within the EU. You lost your right to vote in EU elections. You lost your right to sell your goods and services anywhere in the EU without restrictions and paperwork. You lost your right to have the ECJ protect your freedoms. That may not be something that bothers you, that's fine, but it is a fact that you lost those rights and freedoms.
    All of which, for most people, are entirely abstract or peripheral.

    The real objection is Values.
  • nico679 said:

    How can students afford to bring their family with them? And more importantly why would any student want ma and pa with them, cramping their social life .

    I suspect the India Trade Deal is hitting the buffers because they wanted more visas and in the current climate that wouldn’t be a good look.

    This isn’t 1st world “I’ll hang about with my mates and drink for 3 years” bullshit.

    This is serious, “climb the economic ladder” stuff. My wife came from Peru like this - the family scrimped and saved. She worked every hour that she wasn’t studying.
    Is there a tradition, I wonder, for right-wing PBers to marry foreigners?

    @Malmesbury
    @Casino_Royale
    @Sandpit
    @MaxPB
    Not especially.

    It happened because we clicked and got on. And discovered we were soulmates.

    That could have been someone English, but it didn't turn out that way.
  • Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MikeL said:

    Two new polls today have Biden back ahead of Trump:

    YouGov: Biden 39, Trump 37
    Morning Consult: Biden 43, Trump 42

    YouGov also has Trump 36, Newsom 34

    So who knows what the Dems should do?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Yougov also has Biden beating De Santis 38% to 35% but De Santis beats Newsom 32% to 31%

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
    I find it hard to believe De Santis would beat Newsom in a real national election.
    He would, Newsom is a woke elitist coastal liberal of the type the rustbelt swing states rejected in 2016 when they voted for Trump over Hillary. Biden has at least proved he can connect with rustbelt voters with his 2020 win
    In his personal life, Newsom is the most traditional All American candidate you could imagine. I think he could transcend the woke elitist label.
    'Gavin Newsom's woke policies are hurting children's education. Is it any wonder their parents are leaving?'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/12/california-public-schools-gavin-newsom-woke/
    The state has almost no role in education in California, it's all delegated to counties and cities.
    Actually, I am going to weigh in properly on this one.

    California education is a terrible mixed bag depending on where you live. Local cities are essentially responsible for setting the curriculum and providing all the funding.

    Beverly Hills, for example, raises its own property and sales tax, and is responsible for paying for its police and schools. Beverly Hills High is - therefore - incredibly opulent, with facilities
    that would make most British private schools blush.

    We are in Los Angeles, the city, and we have decent - but not amazing - public schools.

    Cross over to Inglewood, and it's a different story. Like Beverly Hills, Inglewood is a city. But its tax base is narrow and the value of its properties low. School funding there is going to be dramatically lower than in Beverly Hills.
    There are really two classes of people in the US.
    The top 70% and the rest. Life is very very good for the top 70%: low crime, high longevity, big houses, high incomes. I’ll leave aside the bad food, but California is a possible exception that anyway.

    It’s really, really shite for the bottom 30%.

    In Britain, life is very good for the top 10%, dreary for the middle 80%, and shite for the bottom 10%.

    Your numbers may vary…
    Even the bottom 10% don't have to worry about health care costs.
    Yes. It’s shite, but not “really, really” shite.
    Life isn't dreary; I'd say its expensive.

    One thing that is reasonable here (notwithstanding recent inflation) is food.

    Our supermarket system is pretty bloody good.
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