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Letter to America, please tell us the truth about this conspiracy theory – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077

    BBC currently ignoring Wilders on its webpage.

    To be fair I'm not sure an election in the Netherlands would typically make the front page (not prominently at any rate). They have been following it at least.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67504272

    Less skin in the game though, I doubt the reporting will be as openly upset as Yes losing that recent Australian referendum.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    nico679 said:

    Not sure where this May idea is coming from . Unless the Tories believe that their poll numbers are going to improve dramatically by then .

    I read that comment out of context and thought there were rumours of a Theresa May comeback.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Not sure where this May idea is coming from . Unless the Tories believe that their poll numbers are going to improve dramatically by then .

    I guess there's the idea if the budget has some goodies there could be a brief surge to take advantage of, but it sounds improbable to me.

    I certainly don't have the data, but has a budget bounce really been a thing? How would it sustain itself for several months during a GE campaign without unravelling? The fundamentals haven't changed.

    A play for time is not much of a plan, but provides hope at least.
    Hasn’t Hunt used up most of the fiscal room now . The only way they can dish out tax cuts must surely be cuts to public services otherwise they’ll be entering Truss territory .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,077

    nico679 said:

    Not sure where this May idea is coming from . Unless the Tories believe that their poll numbers are going to improve dramatically by then .

    I read that comment out of context and thought there were rumours of a Theresa May comeback.
    In fairness there seemed a greater chance of her coming back to Cabinet than Cameron, yet look where we find ourselves - at this rate they might end up reappointing as many of the 2010 Cameroon Cabinet as are still hanging about in Parliament in an effort to recapture that level at least.
  • My favourite JFK conspiracy theory attributed to someone's Dad on Twitter or Bluesky or somewhere: Two shooters, Lee Harvey Oswald and another on the grassy knoll, *acting independently*. It was just the best place to shoot him that day.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    Netanyahu: I instructed the Mossad to eliminate the leaders of Hamas wherever they are

    Unsurprising. I expect Mossad's extrajudicial overseas assassination squads will be condemned like the Russian tourists in Salisbury. Or do I?
    No. Very different targets and circumstances.

    This is a very good move in the long term although not sure it will be very helpful when trying to negotiate hostage releases in the short term.
    And if they kill a UK resident or national?
    Depends on if that person was a Hamas official and also on whether they get caught.

    Clearly no matter whther the target was the worst terrorist in the Hamas pantheon, killing him on British soil would be illegal under our laws but that doesn't make it wrong. If they got caught doing it they would expect to end up in jail and Israel would be embarrassed but there is a difference between legality and whther something is morally right.

    If they killed an innocent bystander or family member that would be a different matter.

    But to be honest if we are stupid enough to be harbouring senior Hamas leaders then we have little cause for complaint if the Israelis decide to take action on our soil.
    Not for me, I don't think,

    For sure the Russians have been up to no good the last few decades, as our security services seem to be pretty shit at stopping dissidents falling on to railings. But... I don't think a state can accept the murder of a national on its own soil. Isn't that the point of having a state?

    Could you even trust that the Israeli's have such overwhelming need to kill the person? They've been pretty liberal in the past:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

    I mean imagine they went after someone indirectly related to the killing say Hamas's 'minister for hospitals' or 'minister for education' is that a justifiable killing?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Not sure where this May idea is coming from . Unless the Tories believe that their poll numbers are going to improve dramatically by then .

    I guess there's the idea if the budget has some goodies there could be a brief surge to take advantage of, but it sounds improbable to me.

    I certainly don't have the data, but has a budget bounce really been a thing? How would it sustain itself for several months during a GE campaign without unravelling? The fundamentals haven't changed.

    A play for time is not much of a plan, but provides hope at least.
    A giveaway budget while the tax take slowly climbs would wreck what little economic credibility that Hunt has clawed back from the Trussterfuck.

    It would be highly likely to backfire, particularly on a background of collapsing welfare state.

    I reckon a October election.
  • BBC currently ignoring Wilders on its webpage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67504272
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    BBC currently ignoring Wilders on its webpage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67504272
    I'm sure you'll find it somewhere but prominence seems to be less than Laurence Fox and Girls Aloud.
  • Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    .

    POLITICOEurope
    @POLITICOEurope
    ·
    21m
    🚨 BREAKING: Far-right leader Geert Wilders has become the shock winner of the Dutch election, according to an exit poll.

    Get ready to sedate Leon.
    Big week for the populist hard libertarian right with Milei and Wilders topping the polls
    If the exit poll is right, there's a majority for a right-to-centre-right government. The question is whether the more centre-right parties would be willing to work with the PVV. Otherwise, it is likely to be VVD-led perhaps pulling in some of the liberal and left parties.
    I think if Wilders had only topped the poll narrowly they might have tried to shut him out. But he's won by quite a significant margin, unless the exit poll is wrong.
    He toned down his rhetoric just before the election but is a very nasty individual. He won’t be PM as none of the major parties would support him for that . I doubt he would take a smaller role and will just spend the next years bleating about the unfairness and playing the martyr .
    Is he still as pro-Putin as he used to be?

    Some righties seem to find that distance lends enchantment to pro Putinistas.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Lib Dem hold in Powys.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,816
    edited November 2023

    Ghedebrav said:

    DavidL said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    DavidL said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    On topic (to the header) I urge everyone who hasn’t yet, to read Ellroy’s magnificent American Tabloid.

    Second Ellroy recommendation of the evening. I was commending The cold six thousand earlier.
    I’m about a big an Ellroy fan as you’ll find, but honestly I found the Cold Six Thousand a bit of a slog - I think maybe not enough ‘magnificent bastard’ in it (Tedrow Sr. maybe), though it is still a fantastic book. Blood’s A Rover is better though.

    I’m reading Perfidia at the moment and it’s perhaps as good as anything he’s done.
    I found Perfidia a bit of a slog.
    I loved the Black Dahlia and LA Confidential.
    I’ve been reading it slowly, actively making myself do so (I’m so used to skimming and scanning) -it’s necessary for a writer who can pack so much into a sentence - and have found it very immersive and compelling.

    Helps that Dudley Smith is in it too.
    I think James Cromwell absolutely owns the film of LA Confidential.

    I blew away an American friend this evening by pointing out that the family of John Hinckley Jnr (who shot Reagan) had donated to George Bush Snr's campaign in 1980. He of course was also in Dallas on 22 November 1963. And was played by.... James Cromwell in Oliver Stone's film W.
    "I wouldn't trade places with Edmund Exley right now for all the whiskey in Ireland!"
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Netanyahu: I instructed the Mossad to eliminate the leaders of Hamas wherever they are

    Unsurprising. I expect Mossad's extrajudicial overseas assassination squads will be condemned like the Russian tourists in Salisbury. Or do I?
    No. Very different targets and circumstances.

    This is a very good move in the long term although not sure it will be very helpful when trying to negotiate hostage releases in the short term.
    And if they kill a UK resident or national?
    Depends on if that person was a Hamas official and also on whether they get caught.

    Clearly no matter whther the target was the worst terrorist in the Hamas pantheon, killing him on British soil would be illegal under our laws but that doesn't make it wrong. If they got caught doing it they would expect to end up in jail and Israel would be embarrassed but there is a difference between legality and whther something is morally right.

    If they killed an innocent bystander or family member that would be a different matter.

    But to be honest if we are stupid enough to be harbouring senior Hamas leaders then we have little cause for complaint if the Israelis decide to take action on our soil.
    You mean, like this guy?
    https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/hamas-chief-plotted-group-lives-144458226.html

    A friend of Jeremy Corbyn, naturally. Allegedly still working for Hamas from Barnet, home to the UK's largest Jewish community. In a council house he bought at a state-sponsored discount.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    slade said:

    Lib Dem hold in Powys.

    Majority went from 14 to 121.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,138
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    "Look, we ordered 10x more crab than we intended, what do you want us to do about it?"
    That's brilliant. Revenge of the Brighton Waste Collection Operatives.



  • Enjoy the NI cut y'all. Goodnight 👍
  • BBC currently ignoring Wilders on its webpage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67504272
    I'm sure you'll find it somewhere but prominence seems to be less than Laurence Fox and Girls Aloud.
    It's the 4th-most read article on their website.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,138

    BBC currently ignoring Wilders on its webpage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67504272
    I'm sure you'll find it somewhere but prominence seems to be less than Laurence Fox and Girls Aloud.
    It's the 4th-most read article on their website.
    Isn't that a BBC News-ish vs BBC Tabloid distinction?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,816
    edited November 2023
    MattW said:

    BBC currently ignoring Wilders on its webpage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67504272
    I'm sure you'll find it somewhere but prominence seems to be less than Laurence Fox and Girls Aloud.
    It's the 4th-most read article on their website.
    Isn't that a BBC News-ish vs BBC Tabloid distinction?
    By website, I meant News, obvs.


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  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Off topic: Richard Dawkins might like a Thurber cartoon that I was reminded of by an article* in today's WaPo:

    At a party, a large woman is smiling at a small man, and saying: "I love the idea of there being two sexes, don't you?" (I found the cartoon in the Library of America Thurber collection.)

    For the record: I love that idea, too.

    (*The article began by talking about "pregnant people", and continued use the phrase throughout, I think anyone that confused about basic mammalian biology should not be writing about health issues.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    BRACE BRACE BRACE....Days of Leon, I was right posts incoming....

    Reuters reporting that OpenAI employees sent a letter to the board several days before Sam Altman got sacked claiming the latest iteration of their AI was significantly more powerful and they were concerned that insufficient safety precautions was being taken.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Ghedebrav said:

    nico679 said:

    Not sure where this May idea is coming from . Unless the Tories believe that their poll numbers are going to improve dramatically by then .

    Or maybe it’s only getting worse? The polls have been trending remorselessly downwards. I don’t think another year will render them a better chance of victory.

    As I’ve said on here before, being able to call the election is a significant strategic advantage that the government holds, and they don’t have much else going for them - and it’s an advantage that gets increasingly less significant the closer you get to full term. At least they’d be taking the initiative.
    Yes, they either take the initiative and call it in Spring, or it’s in autumn by default. Is Sunak really that desperate to cling on to power? He has his tech bros waiting for him in Cali should he lose. Might as well take the initiative and go in May.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Sadiq Khan has posted this message with a picture of Geert Wilders.

    "@SadiqKhan
    A reminder to progressives everywhere - the continued threat of the far-right is real and on our doorstep.
    The next year is going to be pivotal for standing up for and defending our values - in London, in Europe and across the world."

    https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1727436959256326500
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    BRACE BRACE BRACE....Days of Leon, I was right posts incoming....

    Reuters reporting that OpenAI employees sent a letter to the board several days before Sam Altman got sacked claiming the latest iteration of their AI was significantly more powerful and they were concerned that insufficient safety precautions was being taken.

    Heh
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    And good morning from the 34th floor of the highest building in a rather cloudy Phnom Penh


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    One major takeaway from this is that it points to a Marine Le Pen victory in France. That will be Italy, France and the Netherlands with hard/far right governments

    Eventually, it will happen in the UK
  • Tories accused of 'sneaking out' plan to increase election spending cap
    ...
    The new rules were pushed through via a Statutory Instrument on Monday and mean the national election spending cap on political parties will rise by 80%, to about £35m.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tories-accused-of-sneaking-out-plan-to-increase-election-spending-cap-13013774
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,882
    edited November 2023
    Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html
  • Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    That is a larger number of seats of Wilders than first exit poll.
  • Europe told to brace for market crisis over fears of a bond sell-off
    ...
    Europe’s insurance companies and pension funds are at risk of a market crisis similar to Britain’s [Truss/Kwarteng] mini-budget meltdown, the eurozone’s central bank has warned.

    In a sign of growing concerns about the shadow banking sector, the European Central Bank yesterday urged insurers and retirement funds to bolster their buffers to ensure they can withstand the impact of a bond market sell-off.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/europe-told-to-brace-for-market-crisis-over-fears-of-a-bond-sell-off-j7gvzb69p (£££)
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    That is a larger number of seats of Wilders than first exit poll.
    Every seat they get makes it harder and harder for the other parties to conspire to keep them out of power.

    PR is great, isn't it?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    One major takeaway from this is that it points to a Marine Le Pen victory in France. That will be Italy, France and the Netherlands with hard/far right governments

    Eventually, it will happen in the UK
    I think we'll still have a fairly liberal government if the rest of Europe goes for people like Wilders.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html

    Have they been eating the bat soup again?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    If you want to know at a high level all the Q* search stuff in the Reuters report about OpenAI is concerned with.

    Clip is very informative of what the idea is,

    "I don't think we'll see systems that truly step beyond their training data until we have powerful search in the process." @ShaneLegg, Founder and Chief AGI Scientist, Google DeepMind

    https://x.com/dwarkesh_sp/status/1717224459739058342?s=20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Netherlands ,- BBB farmers party has 7 seats. You can add those straight on to Wilders potential coalition I think
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    That is a larger number of seats of Wilders than first exit poll.
    The big determinant is the number of parties that just miss the cut off.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    One major takeaway from this is that it points to a Marine Le Pen victory in France. That will be Italy, France and the Netherlands with hard/far right governments

    Eventually, it will happen in the UK
    I think we'll still have a fairly liberal government if the rest of Europe goes for people like Wilders.
    If the EU swings to the hard right, does Brexit get a second wind of popularity?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Jonathan said:

    If the EU swings to the hard right, does Brexit get a second wind of popularity?

    Presumably. Although lacking another referendum, it's only an academic question.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Just looking at the Dutch elections.

    That parliament is better hung than a prize stallion.

    New elections in twelve months would be my guess.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Netanyahu: I instructed the Mossad to eliminate the leaders of Hamas wherever they are

    Unsurprising. I expect Mossad's extrajudicial overseas assassination squads will be condemned like the Russian tourists in Salisbury. Or do I?
    No. Very different targets and circumstances.

    This is a very good move in the long term although not sure it will be very helpful when trying to negotiate hostage releases in the short term.
    And if they kill a UK resident or national?
    Depends on if that person was a Hamas official and also on whether they get caught.

    Clearly no matter whther the target was the worst terrorist in the Hamas pantheon, killing him on British soil would be illegal under our laws but that doesn't make it wrong. If they got caught doing it they would expect to end up in jail and Israel would be embarrassed but there is a difference between legality and whther something is morally right.

    If they killed an innocent bystander or family member that would be a different matter.

    But to be honest if we are stupid enough to be harbouring senior Hamas leaders then we have little cause for complaint if the Israelis decide to take action on our soil.
    Not for me, I don't think,

    For sure the Russians have been up to no good the last few decades, as our security services seem to be pretty shit at stopping dissidents falling on to railings. But... I don't think a state can accept the murder of a national on its own soil. Isn't that the point of having a state?

    Could you even trust that the Israeli's have such overwhelming need to kill the person? They've been pretty liberal in the past:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

    I mean imagine they went after someone indirectly related to the killing say Hamas's 'minister for hospitals' or 'minister for education' is that a justifiable killing?
    India murdered somebody on Canadian soil recently. Famously the Russians did it in Salisbury (the Indians didn't condemn that IIUC, which makes you think)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Geert Wilders LOL.

    Imagine being in an organisation that has Wilders, Meloni, Duda, Orban, and possibly Le Pen next year as members. Next few EU Council meetings are going to be fun.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    One major takeaway from this is that it points to a Marine Le Pen victory in France. That will be Italy, France and the Netherlands with hard/far right governments

    Eventually, it will happen in the UK
    I think we'll still have a fairly liberal government if the rest of Europe goes for people like Wilders.
    If the EU swings to the hard right, does Brexit get a second wind of popularity?
    Among the centre-left that were in 2016 some of the biggest remain supporters, quite possibly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Wembley Stadium decides to stop illuminating their arch for non-sporting reasons such as political causes or disasters.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/22/fa-lighting-wembley-arch-politics-tragedy-israel-war/

    Because they used to do it for everyone except Israel, and now realise that’s a really bad look.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Sandpit said:

    Geert Wilders LOL.

    Imagine being in an organisation that has Wilders, Meloni, Duda, Orban, and possibly Le Pen next year as members. Next few EU Council meetings are going to be fun.

    There are massive ideological differences between those politicians
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    ydoethur said:

    Just looking at the Dutch elections.

    That parliament is better hung than a prize stallion.

    New elections in twelve months would be my guess.

    That's the thing isn't it: 37 seats is an incredible performance from the VVD.

    But it's still a much smaller share of the Dutch parliament than Labour got at the last election in the UK.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    The chance of me being On-Topic with this Header is a very round number.

    Apart from pointing to Alistair Cooke's Letter from America from that date:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00yqhr6

    I think he was much closer to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, but that's one for another day.

    What a master of the journalistic essay Cooke was. We shall not see his like again.

    Also, since I'm at it, was JFK perhaps the last great orator? Why do we not have great public speakers these days?
    Pick one

    Kinnock, 1983: The "warn you" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yjLr5fMX4A
    Kinnock, 1985: The "Militant" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HViOcwNDuU

    PB. The memory of a mayfly... :)

    Nah, Kinnock was a poor speaker overall. Passionate yes, but too wordy and not able to construct speeches that resonate down the years.

    Contrast with JFK:

    “Let the word go forth from this time and place to friend and foe alike that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”
    The JFK one is pure marketing emotion; that para is entirely devoid of content.

    He is stroking an audience of kittens.
    I respectfully disagree. It was that sentiment and confidence that resulted in the USA being in Vietnam amongst other things. Kennedy had some of the best speech writers of all time...
    It expresses a (then genuine) strain of US idealism, which Vietnam had a large part in destroying.
    But you're correct that the message was a consequential rather than empty one - though the US had taken steps to embroil itself in Vietnam a good decade earlier.
  • I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    edited November 2023

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    Wilders isn't even particularly right wing on "culture", only really on immigration and the impact of Islam on the (liberal) culture of the Netherlands.

    And I don't think the label of far-right is true or Marine Le Pen either: I'd describe her as a nationalist version of Jeremy Corbyn.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    Wilders isn't even particularly right wing on "culture", only really on immigration and the impact of Islam on the (liberal) culture of the Netherlands.

    And I don't think the label of far-right is true or Marine Le Pen either: I'd describe her as a nationalist version of Jeremy Corbyn.
    As bad as that ?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    The chance of me being On-Topic with this Header is a very round number.

    Apart from pointing to Alistair Cooke's Letter from America from that date:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00yqhr6

    I think he was much closer to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, but that's one for another day.

    What a master of the journalistic essay Cooke was. We shall not see his like again.

    Also, since I'm at it, was JFK perhaps the last great orator? Why do we not have great public speakers these days?
    Pick one

    Kinnock, 1983: The "warn you" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yjLr5fMX4A
    Kinnock, 1985: The "Militant" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HViOcwNDuU

    PB. The memory of a mayfly... :)

    Nah, Kinnock was a poor speaker overall. Passionate yes, but too wordy and not able to construct speeches that resonate down the years.

    Contrast with JFK:

    “Let the word go forth from this time and place to friend and foe alike that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”
    The JFK one is pure marketing emotion; that para is entirely devoid of content.

    He is stroking an audience of kittens.
    I respectfully disagree. It was that sentiment and confidence that resulted in the USA being in Vietnam amongst other things. Kennedy had some of the best speech writers of all time...
    It expresses a (then genuine) strain of US idealism, which Vietnam had a large part in destroying.
    But you're correct that the message was a consequential rather than empty one - though the US had taken steps to embroil itself in Vietnam a good decade earlier.
    Kinnock wasn't called the Welsh windbag for nothing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just looking at the Dutch elections.

    That parliament is better hung than a prize stallion.

    New elections in twelve months would be my guess.

    That's the thing isn't it: 37 seats is an incredible performance from the VVD.

    But it's still a much smaller share of the Dutch parliament than Labour got at the last election in the UK.
    A source of national shame for us.

    I blame the voting system. PR now!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    The chance of me being On-Topic with this Header is a very round number.

    Apart from pointing to Alistair Cooke's Letter from America from that date:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00yqhr6

    I think he was much closer to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, but that's one for another day.

    What a master of the journalistic essay Cooke was. We shall not see his like again.

    Also, since I'm at it, was JFK perhaps the last great orator? Why do we not have great public speakers these days?
    Pick one

    Kinnock, 1983: The "warn you" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yjLr5fMX4A
    Kinnock, 1985: The "Militant" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HViOcwNDuU

    PB. The memory of a mayfly... :)

    Nah, Kinnock was a poor speaker overall. Passionate yes, but too wordy and not able to construct speeches that resonate down the years.

    Contrast with JFK:

    “Let the word go forth from this time and place to friend and foe alike that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”
    The JFK one is pure marketing emotion; that para is entirely devoid of content.

    He is stroking an audience of kittens.
    I respectfully disagree. It was that sentiment and confidence that resulted in the USA being in Vietnam amongst other things. Kennedy had some of the best speech writers of all time...
    It expresses a (then genuine) strain of US idealism, which Vietnam had a large part in destroying.
    But you're correct that the message was a consequential rather than empty one - though the US had taken steps to embroil itself in Vietnam a good decade earlier.
    Kinnock wasn't called the Welsh windbag for nothing.

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    The chance of me being On-Topic with this Header is a very round number.

    Apart from pointing to Alistair Cooke's Letter from America from that date:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00yqhr6

    I think he was much closer to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, but that's one for another day.

    What a master of the journalistic essay Cooke was. We shall not see his like again.

    Also, since I'm at it, was JFK perhaps the last great orator? Why do we not have great public speakers these days?
    Pick one

    Kinnock, 1983: The "warn you" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yjLr5fMX4A
    Kinnock, 1985: The "Militant" speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HViOcwNDuU

    PB. The memory of a mayfly... :)

    Nah, Kinnock was a poor speaker overall. Passionate yes, but too wordy and not able to construct speeches that resonate down the years.

    Contrast with JFK:

    “Let the word go forth from this time and place to friend and foe alike that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”
    The JFK one is pure marketing emotion; that para is entirely devoid of content.

    He is stroking an audience of kittens.
    I respectfully disagree. It was that sentiment and confidence that resulted in the USA being in Vietnam amongst other things. Kennedy had some of the best speech writers of all time...
    It expresses a (then genuine) strain of US idealism, which Vietnam had a large part in destroying.
    But you're correct that the message was a consequential rather than empty one - though the US had taken steps to embroil itself in Vietnam a good decade earlier.
    Kinnock wasn't called the Welsh windbag for nothing.
    That's true. But if verbiage is the only problem a politician has, I'll take it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    Wilders isn't even particularly right wing on "culture", only really on immigration and the impact of Islam on the (liberal) culture of the Netherlands.

    And I don't think the label of far-right is true or Marine Le Pen either: I'd describe her as a nationalist version of Jeremy Corbyn.
    As bad as that ?
    Oh, anyone who thinks France's economic woes come from a lack of central planning is in for a nasty shock.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    If we substitute 'Jews' for 'Muslims' I think you would have a very hard time distinguishing between a speech by Wilders and a speech by Hitler.

    Unless you think destroying mosques is a good policy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    Wilders isn't even particularly right wing on "culture", only really on immigration and the impact of Islam on the (liberal) culture of the Netherlands.

    And I don't think the label of far-right is true or Marine Le Pen either: I'd describe her as a nationalist version of Jeremy Corbyn.
    As bad as that ?
    Oh, anyone who thinks France's economic woes come from a lack of central planning is in for a nasty shock.
    A Massif shock?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Morning

    I am officially the 19th highest person in Phnom Penh



  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Whether Meloni or Wilders or whoever are hard right or far right or just Fash adjacent or merely a bit tough on migrants, the contortions of the Remoaners as the EU - inevitably - swings further and further right, are going to be hilarious

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Leon said:

    Morning

    I am officially the 19th highest person in Phnom Penh



    18 people are overdoing the drugs in epic fashion?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Geert Wilders LOL.

    Imagine being in an organisation that has Wilders, Meloni, Duda, Orban, and possibly Le Pen next year as members. Next few EU Council meetings are going to be fun.

    There are massive ideological differences between those politicians
    Oh indeed, but to most of the media they’re all “far right”.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,371
    Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey

    Bloody hell.

    Those 18 people must be really going some.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey

    Bloody hell.

    Those 18 people must be really going some.
    I’m trying to calm down with a swim in my 33rd floor hotel pool. Trouble is, it’s frankly quite squalid - and crowded



  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023
    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest seat projection:

    PVV (Wilders) 37
    Green/Labour 25
    VVD (former largest party) 24
    New Social Contract (new party) 20
    D66 9
    Farmer's Party 7
    Christian Democrats 5
    Socialist Party 5

    https://www.trouw.nl/verkiezingen/tweede-kamerverkiezingen-2023-volg-hier-de-uitslagen~be91966c

    One major takeaway from this is that it points to a Marine Le Pen victory in France. That will be Italy, France and the Netherlands with hard/far right governments

    Eventually, it will happen in the UK
    I think we'll still have a fairly liberal government if the rest of Europe goes for people like Wilders.
    If the EU swings to the hard right, does Brexit get a second wind of popularity?
    No,

    Though it might make Rejoin more appealing to some of PBs Islamophobes.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Geert Wilders LOL.

    Imagine being in an organisation that has Wilders, Meloni, Duda, Orban, and possibly Le Pen next year as members. Next few EU Council meetings are going to be fun.

    There are massive ideological differences between those politicians
    Oh indeed, but to most of the media they’re all “far right”.
    See also "tank"
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right?

    Yes.

    He was, after all, literally Hitler.

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey

    Hitler's Party was called National Socialist German Worker's Party. Many NSDAP policies were not right wing with a lot of investment in the country's innfrastucture etc. The idea of "small goverment" was also not on the NSDAP radar. (not only because radar hadn't been invented then!). The Nationalist part came from Hitler's opinion on what "German" meant. Anyone who didn't fit into his model was shut out from the social benefits. The "Workers Party" only refered to those who fitted into Hitler's idea of what "German" meant.

    This twisted logic is a problem present with many modern nationalists. What they consider as "belonging to their country" is based on nothing more than personal opinion.
  • Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html

    Have they been eating the bat soup again?
    Whatever is striking down Chinese children, our Covid inquiry needs to get a wiggle on and finish before these new germs reach Blighty. Maybe concentrate a bit more on patching up the models and less on who had the best insult for the prime minister.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,882
    edited November 2023

    Europe told to brace for market crisis over fears of a bond sell-off
    ...
    Europe’s insurance companies and pension funds are at risk of a market crisis similar to Britain’s [Truss/Kwarteng] mini-budget meltdown, the eurozone’s central bank has warned.

    In a sign of growing concerns about the shadow banking sector, the European Central Bank yesterday urged insurers and retirement funds to bolster their buffers to ensure they can withstand the impact of a bond market sell-off.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/europe-told-to-brace-for-market-crisis-over-fears-of-a-bond-sell-off-j7gvzb69p (£££)

    Another sharp fall in people's pension pots will outweigh the triple lock and NI cut for government supporters. There have been press reports of people losing a third under Truss, and I dare say Labour will be encouraging voters to check theirs during the campaign.

    ETA just checked and mine was down £171.82 yesterday.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html

    Have they been eating the bat soup again?
    Whatever is striking down Chinese children, our Covid inquiry needs to get a wiggle on and finish before these new germs reach Blighty. Maybe concentrate a bit more on patching up the models and less on who had the best insult for the prime minister.
    Just about the only conclusion from the enquiry so far, is that in the next emergency everyone in government and the senior CS will communicate only by speaking on the phone, therefore making the whole process of responding to the emergency much less efficient.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,907
    A pretty ugly piece of film from New York

    https://twitter.com/Anna_AnninaEl/status/1727087884539490746
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html

    Have they been eating the bat soup again?
    Whatever is striking down Chinese children, our Covid inquiry needs to get a wiggle on and finish before these new germs reach Blighty. Maybe concentrate a bit more on patching up the models and less on who had the best insult for the prime minister.
    The suggestion in the article is that children's immunity has been reduced by the extensive Covid restrictions. Sounds plausible but you are right that the Covid inquiry should be looking closely at how we are going to deal with such a new infection in the future, what works and what doesn't, what we can do better etc. At the moment it is lacking focus.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html

    Have they been eating the bat soup again?
    Just get a sample to Biontech as quickly as possible and we can skip the first year of the Covid pandemic.
  • ydoethur said:

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    If we substitute 'Jews' for 'Muslims' I think you would have a very hard time distinguishing between a speech by Wilders and a speech by Hitler.

    Unless you think destroying mosques is a good policy.
    Might whether it is in German or Dutch be a clue perhaps?
  • ydoethur said:

    I don't think Geert Wilders or Giorgia Meloni are far-right.

    That just seems to be a word that commentators use to describe anyone who talks tough on migration and culture.

    If we substitute 'Jews' for 'Muslims' I think you would have a very hard time distinguishing between a speech by Wilders and a speech by Hitler.

    Unless you think destroying mosques is a good policy.
    We live in an age of hyperbole, and people are judged by the vibe they give out.

    But, I doubt he'll do anything of the sort. Switzerland have banned minarets since 2009, and they aren't goose-stepping just yet.
  • Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey

    Err, yes. He was.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey

    Err, yes. He was.
    It was a joke

    “ok Hitler was tough on crime and immigration”

    “In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey”
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited November 2023
    Still somewhat of a mixed response on the Telegraph’s front page.



    Some saying great economics, some saying great politics, and some saying it’s all a trick.

    Meanwhile, just below, is the really big news that domestic fuel prices are going up this winter - which will almost certainly wipe out the NI cut rise for most people. It’s the economy, stupid.
  • NEW THREAD

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    eristdoof said:

    Leon said:

    Was even Hitler far right? OK he was tough - many would say far too tough - on crime and immigration, but on so many other issues - the environment, transport, smoking, health care, dogs, marching around, industry, culture, mountains - he was more of a traditional “centrist dad” and sometimes quite socialist

    These labels are far too simplistic and dated. You can’t simply pop Hitler in the “far right” category. Ditto Mao on the left. In many ways Mao was more like an early Ed Davey

    Hitler's Party was called National Socialist German Worker's Party. Many NSDAP policies were not right wing with a lot of investment in the country's innfrastucture etc. The idea of "small goverment" was also not on the NSDAP radar. (not only because radar hadn't been invented then!). The Nationalist part came from Hitler's opinion on what "German" meant. Anyone who didn't fit into his model was shut out from the social benefits. The "Workers Party" only refered to those who fitted into Hitler's idea of what "German" meant.

    This twisted logic is a problem present with many modern nationalists. What they consider as "belonging to their country" is based on nothing more than personal opinion.
    It's only in relatively recent years that the right has come partly to define itself by a belief in a small state.
    And in any event that doesn't in any consistent sense include curbing the powers of the state in relation to individuals.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,558
    Leon said:

    Morning

    I am officially the 19th highest person in Phnom Penh



    Well, unless someone is fulfilling their Sisters of Mercy "Vision Thing" festish:

    25 whores in the room next door
    25 floors and I need more....
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206

    Mysterious pneumonia outbreak leaves China's hospitals 'overwhelmed with sick children'
    Alert issued to global scientists as infection tears through schools in Beijing and Liaoning province

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mysterious-pneumonia-outbreak-china-hospitals-sick-children-b1122117.html

    Have they been eating the bat soup again?
    Whatever is striking down Chinese children, our Covid inquiry needs to get a wiggle on and finish before these new germs reach Blighty. Maybe concentrate a bit more on patching up the models and less on who had the best insult for the prime minister.
    Don't worry. We already know the main finding - if you're in government make sure your WhatsApp messages auto delete after 24h.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,413

    nico679 said:

    Not sure where this May idea is coming from . Unless the Tories believe that their poll numbers are going to improve dramatically by then .

    I read that comment out of context and thought there were rumours of a Theresa May comeback.
    Me too. Gave me quite a turn.
This discussion has been closed.