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Letter to America, please tell us the truth about this conspiracy theory – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited November 2023 in General
Letter to America, please tell us the truth about this conspiracy theory – politicalbetting.com

Today marks the 60th anniversary of the assassination of US President John F. Kennedy.50% of Americans believe multiple people were involved in a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.28% believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.https://t.co/5ZIUcRwyeM pic.twitter.com/9pnX4D9gXD

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    I shall tell you a very rude thing about me involving the JFK but it isn't the lagershed, yet.
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    What this years pasty tax then?
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    edited November 2023
    FPT: Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    malcolmg said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jimmy Carr (being serious) on charm vs charisma, as shown by Obama & Trump
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8_ulI_UlrFI

    Carr being himself it actually very interesting. He doesn't do many interviews in which he leaves the comedic act at the door.
    He’s on tour in the US at the moment, and doing loads of podcasts. The guy is a genuine comedy historian, and has loads of references of US and UK comedy from half a century ago.
    I should hope so.

    The guy is 51 himself.
    Jimmy Carr is the spiritual successor to Bob Monkhouse. Discuss.
    An arse, he could not lace Monkhouse's boots.
    Jimmy Carr is releasing his DVDs onto Youtube, as is Chubby Brown and no doubt other comics.
    Is it nearly Carrot in a Box season?

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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
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    I love that only 22% don't know. How do the vast majority know?
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    Lyndon Johnson's cronies in the Mob
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    Without going all Daily Mail, WTF is wrong with this country?

    Jonathan Van-Tam’s family ‘threatened with having throats cut’, Covid inquiry hears
    Former deputy chief medical officer said police advised they move out of their home at one point in pandemic
    ...
    In other evidence given on Wednesday it emerged that Prof Sir Chris Whitty, England’s chief medical officer, said that the scale of threats against him meant he had close police protection for nine months.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/22/jonathan-van-tams-family-threatened-with-having-throats-cut-covid-inquiry-hears

    And from her profile in Vogue:-
    Last year, [Angela] Rayner received death threats that resulted in seven arrests and three convictions. She has panic buttons installed in her house and her sons have security escorts to and from school after threats on their own lives.
    https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/angela-rayner-interview
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    edited November 2023

    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    Since you almost asked … (*)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UGuPvrsG3E
    * (That's a real ellipsis)
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    Do you have a similarly annoying laugh?

    Evening, all :)
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253
    edited November 2023

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today. And also why Hunt has managed to get the OBR to say that, overall, the package isn’t inflationary - since, overall, we’ll still (on average) all be worse off.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023
    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    Do you have a similarly annoying laugh?

    Evening, all :)
    No.
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    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    About time they started taxing the likes of Microsoft properly imo.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    Congratulations, you have officially posted the wrongest thing in the history of PB.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023

    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    I really dislike how stand up comedy has gone. No not the "its gone woke", rather this move to you get on the telly panel show, where they have writers and its scripted, then you get booked to play large soulless arenas, with the same very laboured highly scripted show....

    When Jongleurs was going strong, the guys and girls doing that circuit were battle tested. They would do the same venue at first one a month, so sure they might have some of the same gags, but they weren't going to get away with the same 30 min bit show after show after show. Then once they graduated from that a) they had super tight material, b) great crowd management and c) could do new gags fast, often on the spot.

    Its not surprising most of the people we think are good still to this day, did Jongleurs and Comedy Store regularly in late 90s, early 2000s.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    I think Bob wrote his own material. Early in his career he was a joke writer for Bob Hope - the only British person to have been in that role.
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,765

    The problem with the "Magic Bullet" thing is this.

    If you take the autopsy and medical records of the wound tracks, and the film of exactly where everyone was... then build a computer 3D model of the moment the bullet was fired.

    They all line up. Pointing at the Book Repository.

    This wasn't fakeable with the technology at the time.

    So ironically, the "Magic Bullet" proves that the shooting happened from the Book repository - even, which corner, on which floor.

    Yeah, most people didn't realise that the seat Connally was in wasn't directly in front of the back seat that Kennedy was sitting in, which is why they think the bullet path between them don't match.
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    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    No, the pasty tax was important because it showed how out-of-touch George Osborne was. The pasty tax was one of a number of measures that amounted to an attack on the government's own supporters. VAT on church repairs was another from the omnishambles budget. Ed Balls (iirc) later said he recognised these measures as perennial Treasury suggestions that Labour always rejected.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    I think Bob wrote his own material. Early in his career he was a joke writer for Bob Hope - the only British person to have been in that role.
    Bob Monkhouse famously wrote epic amounts of material. I don't know if you remember the story about his joke books got stolen.
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    kle4 said:

    Is it weird that people develop conspiracy theories over successful assassinations but not unsuccessful ones? I mean, Hinkley very nearly did kill Reagan and I dont think anyone doubts the official story there despite it being nearly successful.

    The thing that isn't discussed enough, Reagan's Vice-President links with Hinckley's family.

    https://www.grunge.com/1100365/the-bizarre-connection-between-john-hinckley-jr-and-the-bush-family/
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    CatMan said:

    The problem with the "Magic Bullet" thing is this.

    If you take the autopsy and medical records of the wound tracks, and the film of exactly where everyone was... then build a computer 3D model of the moment the bullet was fired.

    They all line up. Pointing at the Book Repository.

    This wasn't fakeable with the technology at the time.

    So ironically, the "Magic Bullet" proves that the shooting happened from the Book repository - even, which corner, on which floor.

    Yeah, most people didn't realise that the seat Connally was in wasn't directly in front of the back seat that Kennedy was sitting in, which is why they think the bullet path between them don't match.
    But the bullet fragment doesn't look anything like it should.
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    Cyclefree said:

    From @RochdalePioneers (fpt):-

    "I think Labour believe there are corruption charges to go after because the Tories are corrupt. £107m contracts awarded without tender to a Tory with no PPE experience to a company incorporated days earlier. Hundreds of millions paid out for PPE that was either out of spec unusable or not delivered at all. Companies being awarded further £millions contracts to store the unusable PPE which they had already been paid £hundredsofmillions for.

    It’s corruption. Had they inserted a basic boiler plate performance clause in these contracts that would have been better. Instead they just hand billions of our money over to themselves for nothing."


    This all shows appallingly badly drafted / badly negotiated contracts. What it doesn't necessarily prove is an offence contrary to the 2010 Bribery Act. Labour have said they will appoint some sort of corruption tsar to go after all this but quite what skills, experience or team this - as yet unnamed - person will bring is unclear. Nor is it clear how they will fit in with the SFO or the CPS or indeed the police. So my guess is that the square root of sod all will happen.

    You are probably right but remember one Conservative minister resigned from the government over its failure to tackle Covid fraud.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60117513
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023

    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    No, the pasty tax was important because it showed how out-of-touch George Osborne was. The pasty tax was one of a number of measures that amounted to an attack on the government's own supporters. VAT on church repairs was another from the omnishambles budget. Ed Balls (iirc) later said he recognised these measures as perennial Treasury suggestions that Labour always rejected.
    I don't think that's true. That is how it was spun by the media and political opponents.

    But, if you remember the pasty tax wasn't a tax on pasties, it was due to a weird anomaly at the boundary around VAT on hot food and had actually been subject to all sorts of legal challenges. It was in reality about simplification and removal of edge cases.

    It was like the whole biscuit or cake for Jaffa cakes.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,141
    Kennedy's assasination is a real marker in history for people who heard it that evening (in Britain). Only the "Silents" were around at the time. They can all tell where they were and what they were doing at that moment. The polling questions mention Oswald, Ruby, the Russians, Cuba and the CIA. On the cherchez la femme principle, why not Joe DiMaggio?
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    MJWMJW Posts: 1,339

    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    No, the pasty tax was important because it showed how out-of-touch George Osborne was. The pasty tax was one of a number of measures that amounted to an attack on the government's own supporters. VAT on church repairs was another from the omnishambles budget. Ed Balls (iirc) later said he recognised these measures as perennial Treasury suggestions that Labour always rejected.
    I think that was Damian McBride - who wrote some fairly detailed blogs and threads about the detail that went into constructing a budget and the effort that went into avoiding things like the pasty tax. Things that looked sensible to a number cruncher but which would cause grief because they'd hit some people/businesses in odd ways that could be politically toxic.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    I think Bob wrote his own material. Early in his career he was a joke writer for Bob Hope - the only British person to have been in that role.
    Bob Monkhouse was told at school that he would never make a comedian. The teacher was not laughing now
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,317
    CatMan said:

    The problem with the "Magic Bullet" thing is this.

    If you take the autopsy and medical records of the wound tracks, and the film of exactly where everyone was... then build a computer 3D model of the moment the bullet was fired.

    They all line up. Pointing at the Book Repository.

    This wasn't fakeable with the technology at the time.

    So ironically, the "Magic Bullet" proves that the shooting happened from the Book repository - even, which corner, on which floor.

    Yeah, most people didn't realise that the seat Connally was in wasn't directly in front of the back seat that Kennedy was sitting in, which is why they think the bullet path between them don't match.
    The funniest bit was that the first computer forensic reconstruction was funded, in part, by a major assassination conspiracy theorist. Who tried to have the results suppressed.
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    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    About time they started taxing the likes of Microsoft properly imo.
    One difficulty with properly taxing the tech giants is it will involve a big fight with Washington, half of which (possibly receiving campaign donations) will see this as an attack on American companies, and the other half will say they should repatriate their profits and be taxed in America.
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    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    No, the pasty tax was important because it showed how out-of-touch George Osborne was. The pasty tax was one of a number of measures that amounted to an attack on the government's own supporters. VAT on church repairs was another from the omnishambles budget. Ed Balls (iirc) later said he recognised these measures as perennial Treasury suggestions that Labour always rejected.
    I don't think that's true. That is how it was spun by the media and political opponents.

    But, if you remember the pasty tax wasn't a tax on pasties, it was due to a weird anomaly at the boundary around VAT on hot food and had actually been subject to all sorts of legal challenges. It was in reality about simplification and removal of edge cases.

    It was like the whole biscuit or cake for Jaffa cakes.
    No, I'm right, except that as MJW notes, it was McBride not Balls. Its significance was that it was one of a number of similar measures that made sense on a Treasury spreadsheet but not in a Treasury focus group of ordinary voters. Yes, Osborne fixed an anomaly, but its impact was to make lunch more expensive for millions of workers up and down the land, while pleasing only one civil servant who gave a damn about anomalies around food sales, and showing the Trustafarian Osborne was out-of-touch long before Theresa May told him so.
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    MJWMJW Posts: 1,339

    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    Congratulations, you have officially posted the wrongest thing in the history of PB.
    Carr is dismally dire. His schtick has always been disinterring a 1970s jokebook and going "Oooh I'm not supposed to say that but you laughed a little bit, oooh". Which isn't offensive. Just incredibly lazy and dull - and has been since the early 2000s when he got big, and he's doing the same jokes now. It's the same milieu Russell Brand slithered out of, doing rape and blowjob jokes then giggling that he'd been a terribly naughty Victorian fop and it was all ironic.


    Compare it to someone like Jerry Sadowitz - whose offensiveness has a black heart and soul. Or even Ricky Gervais, who irritating as he can be, has something sparky to say with his humour about the world and comedy. It's just streets ahead of the likes of Carr or Frankie Boyle, who do it by numbers, even if they mechanically say something dreadful about the disabled or the Queen that's designed to shock a bit to go through those numbers.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    Congratulations, you have officially posted the wrongest thing in the history of PB.
    As soon as he mentioned Stewart Lee I assumed it was a parody....
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    Not to alarm anybody, but looks like I'm in charge for the next few days.

    BREAKING: New York's governor says there has been an incident on the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls - and authorities are closely monitoring the situation

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1727392331194888665
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    Not to alarm anybody, but looks like I'm in charge for the next few days.

    BREAKING: New York's governor says there has been an incident on the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls - and authorities are closely monitoring the situation

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1727392331194888665

    An explosion has been reported at the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls at the Canada-U.S. Border.
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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,884
    edited November 2023

    Not to alarm anybody, but looks like I'm in charge for the next few days.

    BREAKING: New York's governor says there has been an incident on the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls - and authorities are closely monitoring the situation

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1727392331194888665

    An explosion has been reported at the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls at the Canada-U.S. Border.
    In the toll/border booth rather than on the bridge itself, it seems.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    Not to alarm anybody, but looks like I'm in charge for the next few days.

    BREAKING: New York's governor says there has been an incident on the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls - and authorities are closely monitoring the situation

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1727392331194888665

    An explosion has been reported at the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls at the Canada-U.S. Border.
    A car blew up. Unclear if Tesla or terrorism.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    From @Carnyx (fpt)

    "Er, the PO scandal was more about there *not* being graft in the PO itself, despite the airy claims [edit] and assumptions. Sure, it's down to crap performance in the system, but I'm not aware that anyone has actually suggested corruption as an explanation for the dodgy computers?"

    No corruption suggestions (yet). But:-

    1. A hell of a lot of pressure from the Japanese government on Blair to proceed with Horizon - jobs lost / no investment in Britain / Japanese government upset etc;

    2. An appalling contract signed with Fujitsu whereby PO did not have access to fundamental details about Horizon and how it worked & Fujitsu had no obligation to tell it - even when asked. Thus making pretty much everything the PO and Ministers said about it so much make believe.

    3. Possible offences contrary to the Fraud Act in relation to the recent accounts and the award of bonuses.
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    The sentences in the murder case today in Liverpool were effectively 'whole life' sentences as they specified minimum terms of over 40 years. It seems on the face of it that in the case of 3 out of 4 they were convicted on the basis of joint enterprise as they were just driving the getaway car, etc. This is cowardly in my view because if you have got to the point where it is life in jail without possibility of parole the correct sentence should be death. This is not because I am an advocate of the death penalty but were it to be reinstated then perhaps consideration would be give to whether these sentences are proportionate.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253
    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    Evening all :)

    What then are we to make of today's "Please vote Conservative" offering. It's back to the old day of bribing people with their own money to re-elect the Government but will it convince anyone?

    With growth forecasts downgraded and billions required every month just to service the existing debt it's clear all Hunt could do was tinker at the edges. I'm sure an 8.4% rise will go down well with the core constituency but how is such largesse to be funded? Spending cuts anyone?

    Will it move the polls? Seems unlikely at this time but we'll know more in a week or so.
  • Options
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/22/home-secretary-described-stockton-as-shithole-mp-claims

    He's right - chunks of Stockton-on-Tees is a shithole. Not all of it, but the town centre ward now has the lowest female life expectancy in the country.

    Of course, Mr Cleverley may want to consider *why* that is and who has been the government for the last 13 years...
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    About time they started taxing the likes of Microsoft properly imo.
    One difficulty with properly taxing the tech giants is it will involve a big fight with Washington, half of which (possibly receiving campaign donations) will see this as an attack on American companies, and the other half will say they should repatriate their profits and be taxed in America.
    We do properly tax the tech giants. All most of them do here is sell stuff to punters or flog advertising space. Their sales are subject to pretty significant amounts of VAT. As far as corporation tax is concerned, it's a tax on profits and the profits are created by clever people and algorithms in California.

    A few have fairly significant regional HQs here. And they pay decent amounts of CT on those HQs.

    That's not to say some of these companies haven't engaged in pretty gamey tax planning in the past. It's just that if anyone should be cross about that it's the IRS, not European tax authorities. The US is where the value is created.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    Plaistow North by-election tomorrow and there was a defection from the ruling Labour Group on Newham Council yesterday with one of the Plashet Councillors leaving citing Starmer's stance on Gaza.

    IF the Mirza supported independent wins the by election, Mirza becomes leader of the opposition with three Councillors in front of the Greens.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    What then are we to make of today's "Please vote Conservative" offering. It's back to the old day of bribing people with their own money to re-elect the Government but will it convince anyone?

    With growth forecasts downgraded and billions required every month just to service the existing debt it's clear all Hunt could do was tinker at the edges. I'm sure an 8.4% rise will go down well with the core constituency but how is such largesse to be funded? Spending cuts anyone?

    Will it move the polls? Seems unlikely at this time but we'll know more in a week or so.

    Don't think it'll move the polls one way or another. Bit of a meh budget. In January when everyone's tax bill goes down there may be an effect. Or not.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    edited November 2023
    Deleted. Duplicate.
  • Options
    Meanwhile in Tory Britain:
    80 year old pre-fabs left in unlivable condition by far away landlord. Council can't buy them or force the landlord to do anything.

    https://theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/22/residents-rise-up-against-damp-homes-in-little-london-rotherham
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046
    I posted a clip of Nixon at the Oxford Union earlier. Everyone forgets that he was in Dallas on the 21 November and only left 1 hour before Kennedy arrived.

    Here's the real giveaway with his comments after the Oswald killing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyoyNF2MbIY

    'Two rights don't make a wrong.'
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183

    Cyclefree said:

    From @RochdalePioneers (fpt):-

    "I think Labour believe there are corruption charges to go after because the Tories are corrupt. £107m contracts awarded without tender to a Tory with no PPE experience to a company incorporated days earlier. Hundreds of millions paid out for PPE that was either out of spec unusable or not delivered at all. Companies being awarded further £millions contracts to store the unusable PPE which they had already been paid £hundredsofmillions for.

    It’s corruption. Had they inserted a basic boiler plate performance clause in these contracts that would have been better. Instead they just hand billions of our money over to themselves for nothing."


    This all shows appallingly badly drafted / badly negotiated contracts. What it doesn't necessarily prove is an offence contrary to the 2010 Bribery Act. Labour have said they will appoint some sort of corruption tsar to go after all this but quite what skills, experience or team this - as yet unnamed - person will bring is unclear. Nor is it clear how they will fit in with the SFO or the CPS or indeed the police. So my guess is that the square root of sod all will happen.

    You are probably right but remember one Conservative minister resigned from the government over its failure to tackle Covid fraud.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60117513
    Those were Covid loans to small businesses not the PPE contracts Labour has been talking about. There was probably quite a lot of fraud there or - rather misuse of the money - because of the lax/quick way the scheme was set up. There were also shenanigans by some customers in the EOTHO scheme - with people insisting on each course being receipted as a separate meal. Some businesses went along with this. (Not my daughter's, to be clear - but I know of at least 2 pubs in the area who did.)

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    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Morning thread.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046
    Don Delilo's fictionalised version of events 'Libra' is quite good on the subject
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    stodge said:

    Plaistow North by-election tomorrow and there was a defection from the ruling Labour Group on Newham Council yesterday with one of the Plashet Councillors leaving citing Starmer's stance on Gaza.

    IF the Mirza supported independent wins the by election, Mirza becomes leader of the opposition with three Councillors in front of the Greens.

    From the Roding to the Lea, Newham will be free!
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,632
    Cyclefree said:

    From @RochdalePioneers (fpt):-

    "I think Labour believe there are corruption charges to go after because the Tories are corrupt. £107m contracts awarded without tender to a Tory with no PPE experience to a company incorporated days earlier. Hundreds of millions paid out for PPE that was either out of spec unusable or not delivered at all. Companies being awarded further £millions contracts to store the unusable PPE which they had already been paid £hundredsofmillions for.

    It’s corruption. Had they inserted a basic boiler plate performance clause in these contracts that would have been better. Instead they just hand billions of our money over to themselves for nothing."


    This all shows appallingly badly drafted / badly negotiated contracts. What it doesn't necessarily prove is an offence contrary to the 2010 Bribery Act. Labour have said they will appoint some sort of corruption tsar to go after all this but quite what skills, experience or team this - as yet unnamed - person will bring is unclear. Nor is it clear how they will fit in with the SFO or the CPS or indeed the police. So my guess is that the square root of sod all will happen.

    They should appoint you @Cyclefree.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161
    I'd recommend anybody tempted by JFK conspiracy theories to read Case Closed by Gerald Posner. It nails every one of them to the wall. It's meticulous and definitive. A great book.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504
    No idea about JFK beyond this:

    I don't generally go for conspiracy theories at all. But one single fact about the JFK thing is persuasive: It just isn't credible that the establishment would put LHO in the way of being shot by a randomer unless someone significant wanted this to be the case.

    All things being equal the single most important issue on the planet at that point was being able to question LHO, in which case it would be made 100% certain he could neither commit suicide nor be attacked.

    It is therefore probable that someone/s who had the power to achieve his death achieved it and had reasons to. That there was a conspiracy inescapably follows.

    Cock up is, in this case, the only alternative. That is not credible.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    algarkirk said:

    No idea about JFK beyond this:

    I don't generally go for conspiracy theories at all. But one single fact about the JFK thing is persuasive: It just isn't credible that the establishment would put LHO in the way of being shot by a randomer unless someone significant wanted this to be the case.

    All things being equal the single most important issue on the planet at that point was being able to question LHO, in which case it would be made 100% certain he could neither commit suicide nor be attacked.

    It is therefore probable that someone/s who had the power to achieve his death achieved it and had reasons to. That there was a conspiracy inescapably follows.

    Cock up is, in this case, the only alternative. That is not credible.

    I personally don't find that particularly persuasive. People f**k up; and security was a lot more lax sixty years ago.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,161
    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Cleverly trying to liven up his image in preparation for a tilt at the leadership?
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Morning thread.
    Have we noted that part of Stockton is a Tory seat?
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    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    It was a joke so who cares? Otoh it is always the cover-up that gets them so if it can be proved it was the Home Secretary (who has denied it) then it might be time to deplore the lack of "next minister out" markets.
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    theProletheProle Posts: 948
    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Having done some work for a firm there a few years ago, when I went that description seemed entirely accurate.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023
    The Section of Tunnel Complex beneath Al-Shifa which was Discovered today is Massive, with several Bedrooms, Offices, and other Large Underground-Structures having been Found.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1727390438510723094?s=20

    Jeremy Bowen will be claiming this is very common in the Middle East to go to such places to get an MRI done.
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    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Morning thread.
    Have we noted that part of Stockton is a Tory seat?
    Once represented by the prime minister, Harold Macmillan, later Earl of Stockton.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046
    The Rest Is History podcast are doing a 7 part series on Kennedy next week.

    He's less interesting for who he was than for what people thought he represented. Would he have averted Vietnam? In 1960 Nixon was the past and he was the future. And then in 1968, of all years, back comes Nixon and the culture wars were born.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023
    The "vehicle explosion" at Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls between U.S. and Canada border was an "attempted terrorist attack" with "a lot of explosives in the vehicle at the time." - Fox News

    2 people in the car died, 1 border official injured. Apparently was driving out of US to Canada.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    algarkirk said:

    No idea about JFK beyond this:

    I don't generally go for conspiracy theories at all. But one single fact about the JFK thing is persuasive: It just isn't credible that the establishment would put LHO in the way of being shot by a randomer unless someone significant wanted this to be the case.

    All things being equal the single most important issue on the planet at that point was being able to question LHO, in which case it would be made 100% certain he could neither commit suicide nor be attacked.

    It is therefore probable that someone/s who had the power to achieve his death achieved it and had reasons to. That there was a conspiracy inescapably follows.

    Cock up is, in this case, the only alternative. That is not credible.

    I personally don't find that particularly persuasive. People f**k up; and security was a lot more lax sixty years ago.
    That counter argument would do in a trivial case, or in the immediate unorganised, chaotic aftermath of the event. Not later on when handling the most significant murder case in modern American (and modern world) history and when, unless there were something awry in the system, everyone would be super keen to have him interrogated.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937

    The "vehicle explosion" at Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls between U.S. and Canada border was an "attempted terrorist attack" with "a lot of explosives in the vehicle at the time." - Fox News

    2 people in the car died, 1 border official injured.

    Looking at the vids on Twitter, if that's all the death / injury toll is, then they've been very lucky. (Don't care about the terrorists; they can go to Hell).

    Isn't today a busy day on US roads?
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    Gosh, is it only sixty years ago?

    Camelot seems a lost age from at least a hundred years ago.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    The Section of Tunnel Complex beneath Al-Shifa which was Discovered today is Massive, with several Bedrooms, Offices, and other Large Underground-Structures having been Found.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1727390438510723094?s=20

    Jeremy Bowen will be claiming this is very common in the Middle East to go to such places to get an MRI done.

    They're all the rage in Kensington and Chelsea.
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    For those interested in the detail of what DWP plans on benefit stuff for sick and disabled.

    Here's the link:


    https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/work-capability-assessment-activities-and-descriptors
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386

    The Rest Is History podcast are doing a 7 part series on Kennedy next week.

    He's less interesting for who he was than for what people thought he represented. Would he have averted Vietnam? In 1960 Nixon was the past and he was the future. And then in 1968, of all years, back comes Nixon and the culture wars were born.

    I'm not entirely sure which way round you're arguing cause and effect there!
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2023

    The "vehicle explosion" at Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls between U.S. and Canada border was an "attempted terrorist attack" with "a lot of explosives in the vehicle at the time." - Fox News

    2 people in the car died, 1 border official injured.

    Looking at the vids on Twitter, if that's all the death / injury toll is, then they've been very lucky. (Don't care about the terrorists; they can go to Hell).

    Isn't today a busy day on US roads?
    Thanks Giving tomorrow.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    edited November 2023

    Not to alarm anybody, but looks like I'm in charge for the next few days.

    BREAKING: New York's governor says there has been an incident on the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls - and authorities are closely monitoring the situation

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1727392331194888665

    An explosion has been reported at the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls at the Canada-U.S. Border.
    Been across that and been invited into the U.S. Border Force office there too.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    theProle said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Having done some work for a firm there a few years ago, when I went that description seemed entirely accurate.
    Specifically, Stockton NORTH is, allegedly, a shithole.
    Stockton South is quite nice.

    Stockton is one of a troika of unfashionable east coast towns in which I have bought really good trousers, along with Hartlepool and Boston. Black pin striped jeans, in this case. *brief lament for the long-gone 21-year-old Cookie who could carry off pin striped jeans.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357

    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    We've been learning some saucy tricks! :open_mouth:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/wQAOhMOq9Bc?si=7BtHMpIVclBwE_fY

    Peerless Bob.
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    Cookie said:

    theProle said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Having done some work for a firm there a few years ago, when I went that description seemed entirely accurate.
    Specifically, Stockton NORTH is, allegedly, a shithole.
    Stockton South is quite nice.

    Stockton is one of a troika of unfashionable east coast towns in which I have bought really good trousers, along with Hartlepool and Boston. Black pin striped jeans, in this case. *brief lament for the long-gone 21-year-old Cookie who could carry off pin striped jeans.
    is Stockton on the coast?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    Anyway, in a change to my usual Wednesday evening habits, I am in the better of Manchester Victoria's two decent pubs. Pretty good for a station which, while architecturally pretty interesting, is rather second fiddle in railway terms.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    Cookie said:

    theProle said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Having done some work for a firm there a few years ago, when I went that description seemed entirely accurate.
    Specifically, Stockton NORTH is, allegedly, a shithole.
    Stockton South is quite nice.

    Stockton is one of a troika of unfashionable east coast towns in which I have bought really good trousers, along with Hartlepool and Boston. Black pin striped jeans, in this case. *brief lament for the long-gone 21-year-old Cookie who could carry off pin striped jeans.
    is Stockton on the coast?
    It is. Stockton and Darlington Railway was built to communicate with shipping. Though replaced as a port by Middlesborough some decades on.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    kinabalu said:

    I'd recommend anybody tempted by JFK conspiracy theories to read Case Closed by Gerald Posner. It nails every one of them to the wall. It's meticulous and definitive. A great book.

    Does it nail the official conspiracy theory to the wall?
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    What then are we to make of today's "Please vote Conservative" offering. It's back to the old day of bribing people with their own money to re-elect the Government but will it convince anyone?

    With growth forecasts downgraded and billions required every month just to service the existing debt it's clear all Hunt could do was tinker at the edges. I'm sure an 8.4% rise will go down well with the core constituency but how is such largesse to be funded? Spending cuts anyone?

    Will it move the polls? Seems unlikely at this time but we'll know more in a week or so.

    Conservative budgets bribe voters with their own money. Labour budgets bribe peope with other people's money.
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    MattW said:

    Since Jimmy Carr cannot go undiscussed...

    I'm a huge fan of Jimmy Carr, I've often been compared to him, we have a similar sense of humour.
    I can't stand Jimmy Carr. He's smug and smarmy, his humour is often unpleasant and unkind as well as empty and laboured, he's not actually very funny, and he's a tax dodger to boot. I think people are right to compare him to Bob Monkhouse, but the latter had much better people writing his jokes for him.
    People like Stewart Lee or Peter Kay are far better comedians. Even Michael Macintyre is a far better comedian than Jimmy Carr. Jack Whitehall is probably the only comedian worse than Jimmy Carr.
    We've been learning some saucy tricks! :open_mouth:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/wQAOhMOq9Bc?si=7BtHMpIVclBwE_fY

    Peerless Bob.
    Bob on politics:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxEkRTCT0hE
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386

    Cookie said:

    theProle said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Having done some work for a firm there a few years ago, when I went that description seemed entirely accurate.
    Specifically, Stockton NORTH is, allegedly, a shithole.
    Stockton South is quite nice.

    Stockton is one of a troika of unfashionable east coast towns in which I have bought really good trousers, along with Hartlepool and Boston. Black pin striped jeans, in this case. *brief lament for the long-gone 21-year-old Cookie who could carry off pin striped jeans.
    is Stockton on the coast?
    Technically, yes. The Tees is tidal in Stockton.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,144
    kle4 said:

    Is it weird that people develop conspiracy theories over successful assassinations but not unsuccessful ones? I mean, Hinkley very nearly did kill Reagan and I dont think anyone doubts the official story there despite it being nearly successful.

    It's easier to create/suspect a conspiracy when the purported assassin is conveniently themselves bumped off, less so when a key cog in any supposed conspiracy is alive and able to tell their story.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    edited November 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Looks like it could be this years “people of colour (talent)”

    StocktonGate latest. Understand the actual comment was “it’s because you’re a shit MP”.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1727394001396121602?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,530
    Ironic that the Tories almost won Stockton North at the last election.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    theProle said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Having done some work for a firm there a few years ago, when I went that description seemed entirely accurate.
    Specifically, Stockton NORTH is, allegedly, a shithole.
    Stockton South is quite nice.

    Stockton is one of a troika of unfashionable east coast towns in which I have bought really good trousers, along with Hartlepool and Boston. Black pin striped jeans, in this case. *brief lament for the long-gone 21-year-old Cookie who could carry off pin striped jeans.
    is Stockton on the coast?
    It is. Stockton and Darlington Railway was built to communicate with shipping. Though replaced as a port by Middlesborough some decades on.
    Stockton is much nicer than Middlesbrough though. Widest high street in the country, apparently.
    Middlesbrough has the slightly depressing air of any town which sprang to existence out of nothing in the Victorian era. (c.f. Crewe). Stockton feels more like the old market town it is, even if it is largely a product of the industrial revolution and not desperately well off.
    But the reason Stockton North is so poor is that it is largely Billingham. And you'd be working very hard at looking on the bright side to say that Billingham isn't a shithole.
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    MJW said:

    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    No, the pasty tax was important because it showed how out-of-touch George Osborne was. The pasty tax was one of a number of measures that amounted to an attack on the government's own supporters. VAT on church repairs was another from the omnishambles budget. Ed Balls (iirc) later said he recognised these measures as perennial Treasury suggestions that Labour always rejected.
    I think that was Damian McBride - who wrote some fairly detailed blogs and threads about the detail that went into constructing a budget and the effort that went into avoiding things like the pasty tax. Things that looked sensible to a number cruncher but which would cause grief because they'd hit some people/businesses in odd ways that could be politically toxic.
    Here is the link to the McBride blog:

    https://www.tumblr.com/damianpmcbride/19717319716/at-half-time-in-last-nights-arsenal-game-i-was

    The thing that stood out to me is that they would push the rubbish ideas out but sometimes bring them back, if they need to balance the budget distributionally.

    I find it annoying, how all the analysis is around which groups are winners and which are losers, rather than what is best for the country overall

    I think it's crazy how we effectively now have 2 budgets a year - if it is up to me, I would limit to one every other year.
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    Maybe some will be persuaded by the tax cut today. But overall the impression I’m getting is people are less worried about the tax they pay and more about the state of the services the government is funding.

    I don’t think people are looking at the issues the country faces right now and thinking “if only my taxes were lower”, rightly or wrongly.

    The fact is that the Tories have lost the argument on tax for the time being, if not from an economic perspective then certainly with the public. In time, they might start winning that argument again, but not in 2024.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    Surprise surprise

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1727368634891403603?s=46

    Long term decisions in the national interest.
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    Siri: give me a summary of the last few years of Tory tax policy.



    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    45m
    Number of people David Cameron’s Coalition Gvt took out of paying income tax: 3.2m (Treasury, 2015)

    Number of people the current Gvt brought back into paying income tax: 4 million (OBR, today)

    🙃

    Via
    @Morkins
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,309
    edited November 2023

    MJW said:

    IanB2 said:

    What this years pasty tax then?

    The flaw, from the point of view of us punters, is that the government is raking in tons of extra tax through freezing the allowance and thresholds, at a time of high inflation, and is dribbling some of it back through lower NI.

    Which, bigger picture, isn’t a bad thing to be doing, but explains why the overall tax take is projected to keep on rising despite the apparent ‘cuts’ announced today.

    If and when people come to understand this, today’s announcements lose some of their lustre.

    But my guess is that Hunt intends to announce a ‘surprise’ increase in the basic allowance when the real budget comes around in March.
    Which is sort of my point. Every year the media get focused on some absolute nonsense / minor balls up, often missing the wood from the trees e.g. the pasty tax. Anybody would think he had introduced a tax on windows the way it was hyped up.
    No, the pasty tax was important because it showed how out-of-touch George Osborne was. The pasty tax was one of a number of measures that amounted to an attack on the government's own supporters. VAT on church repairs was another from the omnishambles budget. Ed Balls (iirc) later said he recognised these measures as perennial Treasury suggestions that Labour always rejected.
    I think that was Damian McBride - who wrote some fairly detailed blogs and threads about the detail that went into constructing a budget and the effort that went into avoiding things like the pasty tax. Things that looked sensible to a number cruncher but which would cause grief because they'd hit some people/businesses in odd ways that could be politically toxic.
    Here is the link to the McBride blog:

    https://www.tumblr.com/damianpmcbride/19717319716/at-half-time-in-last-nights-arsenal-game-i-was

    The thing that stood out to me is that they would push the rubbish ideas out but sometimes bring them back, if they need to balance the budget distributionally.

    I find it annoying, how all the analysis is around which groups are winners and which are losers, rather than what is best for the country overall

    I think it's crazy how we effectively now have 2 budgets a year - if it is up to me, I would limit to one every other year.
    This part is interesting for its relevance to Ulez:-

    One example springs to mind. There was a perennial Starter in each of Gordon’s last 5 Budgets to raise the road tax rate for older, high-emission cars to the much higher rate charged on their brand new equivalents.

    The DVLA proposed it every year for sound administrative reasons; DEFRA backed them up for sound environmental reasons. Gordon rejected it every year for the equally sound reasons that it was unfair and political madness to impose a retrospective tax hike on millions of family cars.

    Alistair put the measure through in his first Budget, and promptly had to reverse it in the face of a media and public outcry, led by the Telegraph. What was telling was the reaction from Alistair’s ‘people’: “the officials didn’t tell us”, “we didn’t realise”. Clearly, the Scorecard process was no longer working.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited November 2023
    My supervisor (who was an American) once commented that the most compelling evidence Oswald acted alone is that he was arrested for not paying for a theatre ticket.

    If he'd had ten bucks (which he didn't) he might have got away with it.

    And if he'd been a hired assassin, he would have been paid at least partly in advance.
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    TimS said:

    Surprise surprise

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1727368634891403603?s=46

    Long term decisions in the national interest.

    Look on the bright side.

    Tomorrow, this all gets driven off the news agenda by the immigration stats.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386

    Siri: give me a summary of the last few years of Tory tax policy.



    Sophy Ridge
    @SophyRidgeSky
    ·
    45m
    Number of people David Cameron’s Coalition Gvt took out of paying income tax: 3.2m (Treasury, 2015)

    Number of people the current Gvt brought back into paying income tax: 4 million (OBR, today)

    🙃

    Via
    @Morkins

    While I'm in favour of tax cuts at the bottom, I'm not sure it's necessarily healthy to have so many people paying ni tax and to be reliant on a small number of very high tax payers. We should be aiming for more tax payers because we should be aiming for more people to be earning enough to pay tax.
    That said, the income tax/NI split is such a ridiculous fudge that this is all ratger academic.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    TimS said:

    Surprise surprise

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1727368634891403603?s=46

    Long term decisions in the national interest.

    Look on the bright side.

    Tomorrow, this all gets driven off the news agenda by the immigration stats.
    I don't think the budget* was that ba...oh sorry, you said 'immigration.'

    *yes, whatever they call it it's a fucking budget.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,309
    edited November 2023
    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nothing tonight on here about Stockton being, allegedly, a s***hole?

    Looks like it could be this years “people of colour (talent)”

    StocktonGate latest. Understand the actual comment was “it’s because you’re a shit MP”.

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1727394001396121602?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Here is the StocktonGate clip. Tbh I cannot tell what was said.
    https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1727312268122276198
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